Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 21: Because 7 8 9

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Rewind with Karen & Georgia" - Episode 21: Because 7 8 9

Date Released: November 27, 2024

In Episode 21 of "Rewind with Karen & Georgia," hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark take listeners on a nostalgic journey back to one of the early episodes of "My Favorite Murder." This retrospective episode delves into historical true crime cases, blending humor with in-depth analysis, and offers reflections on the podcast's evolution since its inception in January 2016.

---

1. Introduction to the Rewind Episode

Karen and Georgia open the episode by setting the stage for their "Rewind" series, which revisits past episodes to discuss how their perspectives and the podcast have grown over time.

Notable Quote:

"This is the show where we take you back to good old 2016 to revisit some of our very first episodes and talk about everything that's changed since and everything that's kind of fucking stayed the same." [02:36]

---

2. Revisiting Episode 21: Because 7 8 9

The primary focus of this "Rewind" episode is Episode 21, originally titled "Because 7 8 9," which centers around the Cleveland Elementary School shooting.

a. The Cleveland Elementary School Shooting

• Date & Location: January 29, 1979, San Diego, California.
• Perpetrator: Brenda Spencer, a 16-year-old girl living across the street from the school.

Karen and Georgia recount the harrowing details of the event, highlighting Brenda Spencer's chilling statement, "I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day," which inspired the Boomtown Rats' song "I Don't Like Mondays."

Notable Quotes:

"With every school shooting, I feel I'm partially responsible. What if they got the idea from what I did?" [27:03]

"I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day." [17:43]

b. Immediate Response and Impact

• Victims: Principal Burton Rag (53) and custodian Michael Sauer were killed, with eight children injured.
• Heroic Action: San Diego police officer Robert Robb exhibited quick thinking by commandeering a garbage truck to block the shooter's line of sight, resulting in him being shot in the neck but ultimately helping to save lives.

Notable Quote:

"It's the best move. So after firing 30 rounds of ammunition, Spencer barricaded herself inside her home for like, it was like six hours." [17:01]

c. Brenda Spencer's Background and Motives

• Family Dynamics: Brenda lived with her father, Wallace Spencer, who was reportedly abusive and alcoholic. In 2001, she alleged that her father subjected her to beatings and sexual abuse, claims he denied.
• Possession of Firearms: In the days leading up to the shooting, Wallace Spencer gifted Brenda a semi-automatic rifle for Christmas, which she had explicitly not asked for.
• Mental Health: Although recommended for psychiatric evaluation due to depression, her father denied permission for her to receive mental health treatment.

Notable Quote:

"She asked for a radio for her birthday. And her dad, who had just been told that she should go to a psychiatric mental hospital because she was depressed, gave her a gun." [24:20]

d. Legacy and Parole Status

Brenda Spencer was sentenced to 25 years to life and as of August 2022, waived her right to a parole hearing until 2025. She remains incarcerated, expressing remorse over her actions and acknowledging her possible influence on subsequent school shootings.

Notable Quote:

"She's still incarcerated at the California Institute for Women in Chino, California, but she'll have another parole hearing next year." [34:42]

---

3. Spotlight on Historical Serial Killer: Jane Toppan (Jolly Jane)

Shifting from modern-day crimes to historical cases, Karen explores the unsettling story of Jane Toppan, an Irish immigrant nurse from the late 19th century.

a. Early Life and Background

• Origin: Born Honora Kelley, later known as Jane Toppan.
• Family: After her mother's death from tuberculosis, her father’s alcoholism led to her and her sister being placed in an orphanage.

Notable Quote:

"Jane Toppan, she was super crazy. Yeah. It speaks more just to him and his reputation. The crazy Taylor up the street." [37:21]

b. Career and Criminal Activities

• Nursing Career: Trained at Cambridge Hospital and later worked at Massachusetts General Hospital.
• Modus Operandi: Administered morphine and atrophine to patients, bringing them close to death repeatedly for her own thrills. She would then become sexually aroused by their vulnerable states.
• Deeper Dive: Toppan confessed to 31 murders, primarily female patients and members of the families she worked for, utilizing her position of trust to carry out her crimes.

Notable Quote:

"She would play back and forth with sending them out and bringing them back over and over again... she would get into bed with them and hold them as it was happening." [40:46]

c. Arrest and Aftermath

• Capture: Arrested on October 26, 1901, after a toxicology exam revealed she had poisoned members of the Davis family.
• Legal Outcome: Found not guilty by reason of insanity and committed to Taunton Insane Hospital, where she remained until her death on August 17, 1938.

Notable Quote:

"She was arrested for murder. And by 1902, she confessed to 31 murders." [47:14]

---

4. Reflections on Podcast Evolution and Future Directions

Karen and Georgia use this "Rewind" episode to reflect on their journey, discussing how revisiting past episodes provides insights into their growth and the podcast’s consistency. They also consider potential themes for future "Rewind" episodes, expressing interest in exploring even older true crime cases, perhaps dating back to the 1500s.

Notable Quote:

"This could be solved. Analyzing it with like, you know, today's science. Pretty cool." [56:35]

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5. Conclusion

The episode concludes with a humorous exchange about future topics and playful banter about potential serial killer scenarios within their personal lives. Karen and Georgia emphasize the importance of discussing historical crimes to understand the persistence of such heinous acts throughout human history.

Notable Quote:

"Stay sexy and don't get murdered." [57:26]

---

Key Takeaways

• Historical Context of True Crime: Understanding past crimes like Brenda Spencer's and Jane Toppan's provides valuable insights into the evolution of criminal behavior and law enforcement responses.

• Impact of Family and Environment: Both cases highlight the significant role of familial relationships and upbringing in shaping an individual's actions.

• Podcast Growth: Revisiting old episodes serves as a mirror to the hosts' personal and professional development, showcasing the podcast's enduring themes and adaptability.

• Future Content: There's a clear interest in delving deeper into historical true crime cases, suggesting a blend of educational content with the show's signature comedic tone.

---

This episode of "Rewind with Karen & Georgia" offers a compelling blend of historical analysis, personal reflection, and trademark humor, making it a must-listen for fans eager to explore the depths of true crime's rich history alongside the podcast's beloved hosts.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, Georgia, the holidays are the perfect time to tell the people in your life just how much you love and appreciate them.

[Bridger Wein]

That's so true, Karen. So when you need a personal gift, Shutterfly can help you create something meaningful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shutterfly's custom photo gifs are a great way to capture those big moments from your year. A wedding, a new baby, a new puppy.

[Bridger Wein]

They make the customization process easy. Just upload photos from your phone or social media to the Shutterfly app, and an unforgettable gift will be ready in minutes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No more gifting junk. These are premium items like canvas prints, engraved ornaments, and photo books.

[Bridger Wein]

Shutterfly can help with stocking stuffers like travel mugs, puzzles, and magnets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And for the ultimate gifting hack, design any of these gifts once and give them to multiple family members.

[Vince]

So I have to say this quietly.

[Bridger Wein]

Because he's in the other room, but for Vince, for the holidays, I'm making him a photo book of us from the first 10 years of our relationship. Oh, there are so many photos in our phone, and we always, like, text them back and forth to each other and, like, smile at them, but there's.

[Vince]

Like, nowhere to look at them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Put it in his hands.

[Bridger Wein]

And I use the Shutterfly app to put it together. It's really easy. Anyone can use it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very sweet.

[Bridger Wein]

I also love the idea of, like, you and your friend, like, your worst photo that you've ever taken together. Turning that into a puzzle.

[Vince]

Yes.

[Bridger Wein]

And then giving it to them. I mean, come on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's such a good idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Explore gifts like blankets, mugs, photo books, and [e-mail]. all easy to customize in minutes with your favorite photos.

[Bridger Wein]

Enjoy 40% off your Shutterfly order with code MFM40 and make something meaningful this year.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get free shipping on qualified orders C site for more details.

[Vince]

Goodbye.

[Unknown]

Hi, I'm Bridger Wein. Each week, I invite my favorite people from comedy to join me on my podcast. I said no Gifts. It's not just the title of the show. It's also my only request. And yet, every guest disobeys. Listen. As unwanted presence offerings and trinkets are laid at my feet and the conversation turns to whatever bizarre item is forced on me, Tension runs high. But I am a professional, and I keep things civil despite having every reason to rip my guests to shreds. Listen to I said no gifts. Wherever you get your podcasts, new episodes every Thursday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Bridger Wein]

This is the show where we Take you back to good old 2016 to revisit some of our very first episodes and talk about everything that's changed since and everything that's kind of fucking stayed the same.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, there's a lot of repeats. There's a lot of consistency. So today we are revisiting our 21st episode. We titled it because 7, 8, 9. A beloved child for everybody except for the number nine.

[Bridger Wein]

It's a classic. And now because of Rewind, we can all be day one listeners.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you ready? Are you ready to get into this episode 21?

[Bridger Wein]

We're of age now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, at this point, I think we in the podcast back then, we probably really think we know what we're doing. 21 under our belt.

[Bridger Wein]

We're getting going. Things are looking up for us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're really getting it together. All right, let's listen to part of our intro for episode 21.

[Vince]

Let's get settled in well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right.

[Vince]

Let's get cozy and comfy. Light some candles.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, did you start?

[Vince]

I think this is it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think this is the last episode.

[Vince]

Do I normally talk like that, Karen?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kind of presentationally cozy and comfy.

[Vince]

Do I?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Georgia, are you seducing me in your own home? Welcome.

[Vince]

Hi. This is my favorite murder. Karen is taking a drink of water. I'm Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know that. Every once in a while hey comes out. It feels like I have to do it sometimes. Like I don't have a choice.

[Vince]

Get it out of your system. Bye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bye. Welcome to episode 21 of the podcast that rocks you to sleep at night and then shocks you awake at 3am with bad feelings. And yet you still want to be friends with it.

[Bridger Wein]

We've become.

[Vince]

We've become. We're now a Sleep Helping podcast. We're like the podcast Sleep with Me that I'm obsessed with. Except we'll make you stay awake all night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Vince]

So it's for people who don't want to fall asleep ever again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you a night show security guard?

[Vince]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You might want to listen to this podcast.

[Vince]

Do you have manic depression and you're just going to be up all night anyways?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then jump on board. Do you have a colicky baby?

[Vince]

Are you a murderer?

[Karen Kilgariff]

A serial killer? Are you burglar? A burglar? Are you a cat burglar?

[Vince]

Are you a cat burglar?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let us sneak along the rooftops with you. We'd love to.

[Vince]

Let's do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye. I worked today, as most Americans did.

[Vince]

Not me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait. But you did do something uh, no. Really? Were you in that outfit all day?

[Vince]

Not this one. This is actually cuter than what I was wearing all day. And this is a fucking house dress.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Georgia has a house dress on that looks like something from Bewitched, but hotter.

[Vince]

It's like a key party. Like a casual key party outfit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like a tomato red with gold brocade sleeveless mini house dress. I mean, they don't make them like that anymore.

[Vince]

Karen, I'm trying to seduce you, girl. You were correct, girl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's working. I don't need a house dress. Yeah. So you work murder stories.

[Bridger Wein]

Yay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the sad truth.

[Vince]

I saw that. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm trying to think of, like, have I've ever been to a party or a situation where a guy has talked about this topic we love so much, kind of brought it up themselves.

[Vince]

Like, you've bonded. You've been like, I got. I had the best conversation with this guy last night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? Like, across a crowded room.

[Vince]

Yeah. Gosh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Gosh.

[Vince]

I don't think so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't either.

[Vince]

What is happening over there?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kev's just playing with these.

[Vince]

There's a kitten in the room. Everyone should know this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

George is upping the cat factor by 1000. With a kitten named Kevin.

[Vince]

Oh, my God. Like, and he's being very loud right now. But he's so cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's super. He looks. Georgia won't admit that she bought a purebred cat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I did not buy a purebred.

[Vince]

I did not buy.

[Bridger Wein]

Adopt, don't shop.

[Vince]

God damn it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This cat looks so purebred, though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He is weird.

[Vince]

He's a lynx point Siamese. He's purebred. However, he was found, I don't know, let's say in a dumpster.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's say in a tiny cat sized dumpster.

[Vince]

A tiny cat sized dumpster. He was bottle fed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was bottle fed by a raccoon.

[Vince]

A cat burglar stole him from a purebred breeding place and is now adopting them out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then a family of frogs that wear vests raised from down by John.

[Vince]

Stop it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so cute.

[Vince]

The mom accepted them as her babies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. And Kevin rode on the mom frog's back until they were like. This hurts. I gotta get rid of this.

[Vince]

There's Georgia's house. Let's drop him off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do do. And their lily pad right up. Am I.

[Vince]

Are we both high? Neither of us got high before this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is adding to the dream. The sleep podcast.

[Vince]

Oh, that's meandering stories. Meandering stories.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're gonna add. We're gonna try to add, along with all the horrible visuals that we feed straight into your brain, we're also adding some fun toad in a vest visual.

[Vince]

Yeah. Some like. Some, like, acid visuals. Some fucking. Let's say you're on peyote. Have you ever done peyote?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that a thing people do?

[Vince]

Oh, God. I've never been offered peyote in my life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't. Don't you have to go to the Andes or something to get that shit?

[Vince]

Sure. Or Ayahuasca.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Be friends with Duncan Trussell or something. I am friends with him.

[Vince]

Oh, I am.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I go name drop. Sorry if you can't handle it. Are you.

[Vince]

Are you? Yay.

[Bridger Wein]

Okay, we're back. I do remember the red house dress.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You do?

[Bridger Wein]

Orangey red house dress I was wearing. It's in tatters now, but I don't get rid of anything, so I'm pretty certain I still have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pull that box out of the attic and let's make a quilt out of your old house dress.

[Bridger Wein]

Unfortunately, I don't have the foster kitten Kevin anymore. What a cutie he was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kevin.

[Bridger Wein]

He was so cute. I just kept trying to introduce kittens into Elvis's life because I just. But every time it would, like, he'd be like, what are you doing? I'm an elderly man already.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's like, no, this is not how this works. And I am absolutely in charge of this household.

[Vince]

Right.

[Bridger Wein]

So three cats in an apartment wasn't gonna happen. Which is probably for the best.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean. Yeah. Looking back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. It's so clear.

[Vince]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But at the time, you were just kind of trying to be like, hey, there are a lot of homeless kittens out there. I want to help them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Bridger Wein]

And, like, if my cats aren't cuddling, I'm just gonna keep introducing other cats until someone starts fucking cuddling. You know what I mean? Like, I don't.

[Vince]

I just.

[Bridger Wein]

I just wanna see two animals snuggling. And for some reason, I have this, like, magnetic forced. Cats that don't cuddle with each other.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're not. I feel like. Don't cats kind of have to be related to cuddles?

[Bridger Wein]

No. No, no, no. Oh, my God. No. Don't get me started on this. It's gonna make me cry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. It's just more personality type.

[Bridger Wein]

It's personality.

[Vince]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm. Okay.

[Vince]

Okay.

[Bridger Wein]

I'm gonna cry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. No crying yet. Not yet. Not above that.

[Bridger Wein]

This is also when we both, I guess, start to say hi, or that's close to the intro, but not exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. And I think the reason we kind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of adjusted it is because Hai was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Actually a quote from Alaska, from Drag Race, and we didn't want to be, like, fully ripping off someone's actual, you know, intro. I don't know, intro greeting, whatever.

[Bridger Wein]

Sure. That's really noble of us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, we're. That's what we're like. We're just really good people deep down.

[Bridger Wein]

Truly, as all podcasters are. It's kind of a rule. Okay, so this episode, we both do. We don't talk about it, but we both end up doing Female killers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Bridger Wein]

Just randomly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it's really funny in this one, I'm asking you, did you start recording? Because, you know, again, you're the sound man or woman. Sound person. But it's that kind of thing where, like, you don't. I don't even know. Like, we don't know what's going on to the point where it's not like you're going, and here we go.

[Vince]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just like, wait, did we start?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did we.

[Bridger Wein]

I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is this going?

[Bridger Wein]

Do we have equipment? Is it on? I don't know. I don't know, because I don't do that for a living.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just like how you started our line of merch and just kept a little tally on a piece of paper. You don't do that for a living.

[Vince]

You guys, this was like.

[Bridger Wein]

This was like homegrown punk rock from the very beginning. We didn't know what we were doing, and we didn't for a long time.

[Vince]

But we acted like it.

[Bridger Wein]

And that's what's key.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you know what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You acted like it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that was what truly brought it all together. Because Jesus Christ. There were reasons to not.

[Bridger Wein]

Absolutely.

[Vince]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Bridger Wein]

There's always reasons to not, and that's why you keep going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so now we're gonna get into the actual stories. Georgia went first on this episode. So let's listen to Georgia's story about the Cleveland elementary school shootings. Between holiday parties, shopping sprees, and trying to wrap gifts at 2am, your sleep could really suffer this season.

[Bridger Wein]

But with Beam, you can make this the most slumberful time of the year.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's why we're excited to talk about Beam's Dream Powder, a science backed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Healthy hot cocoa for sleep.

[Bridger Wein]

Other sleep aids can cause next day grogginess, but Dream contains a powerful all natural blend of reishi, magnesium, L theanine, apigenin, and melatonin to help you fall asleep, stay asleep and wake up refreshed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Check out Beam's limited time holiday flavors like white peppermint, mocha and gingerbread. Get em before they sell out.

[Bridger Wein]

Despite all the stress and busyness this time of year, Beam can help you get eight hours of uninterrupted sleep. Get back on track with just a few sips.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's really nothing like an actual solution when you are having sleeping issues because it just affects your life so much. It's so exhausting. It's such a pain. And the idea that like with just a little lovely hot chocolate that tastes great, I've taken it. It's like this last little thing of the night. It's like dessert kind of. And then like about two hours later, I'm out like a light. It's the best.

[Vince]

I love it.

[Bridger Wein]

And right now, BEME is offering our listeners early access to their Black Friday sale.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You've been hearing us rave about dream and this is your chance to try it for the lowest cost it's ever been sold at.

[Bridger Wein]

Get up to 50% off when you visit shopbeam.com murder and use CodeMurder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Head over to shopbeam.com murder and use code Murder to get yours before they sell out.

[Bridger Wein]

That's shopbeam.com murder and use code murder for up to 50% off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye. I think you're first this week.

[Vince]

I am first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Skippers. It's time to cut back in.

[Vince]

Hey, ready? And stop skipping. Now. Now. All right, so two things made me want to do this murder. My favorite murder this week. One of which was I finished an audiobook called we need to Talk about Kevin. Oh. Which was a book about. It was a book written. Fictional book written by the mother of a kid who had done a school shooting. And it was the letter to. All the letters were to the F. And it was like how they raised this kid and what happened and why he became who he became. And it was a really good book. And I just finished that. And then on Sunday morning, the fucking Orlando shootings happened. And it was. It's horrific and awful and disgusting. And so I kind of had. Was looking at the Facebook page and found this information that I had never known about before that I wanted to talk about the Cleveland elementary school shooting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh oh.

[Vince]

Do you know this one?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Vince]

Okay. It took place on January 29, 1979 in San Diego, California. Shots were fired at a public elementary school. And the person who was doing the shooting lived in a house across the street from the school. And her name was Brenda Spencer. She was 16 years old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy shit. Brenda.

[Vince]

There is the fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait. Can I ask a question? Is this. I don't like Monday.

[Bridger Wein]

I don't like Monday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sorry.

[Vince]

Hometown rants. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that. Sorry.

[Vince]

It's okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was just so proud. It's my favorite.

[Vince]

That's okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So. But I don't know the story. I only know that a girl did it and a girl said it.

[Vince]

Okay, so Brenda Spencer, she lived in a house across the street from the school, and she would become known as the mother of schoolyard massacres such as Columbine. And she was like, the first. First school shooter. So on the morning of January 29, 1979, she began shooting from her home at children who were waiting outside Cleveland Elementary School, which was across from her house. The first person that she killed was the principal, Burton Rag. And he was opening the gates to the school. 53 years old, ran outside to help the victims and helped get rid of the children and move them inside. And he got. He got shot in the chest. And then Michael, I want to say shoot. Shooter. S U C H A r shoe charer with 56. He was a school custodian. Rushed out to help the dying principal, and he was shot. So those were the two fatalities, but eight children were injured. So then the San Diego police officer, Robert Robb, was the first fry up at the scene, and he got a bullet in his neck. And I've heard conflicting. I've read conflicting stories that he. Someone moved, commandeered a garbage truck and drove it in front of the school because they could tell where the sniper was. And I heard it was this officer who got shot in the neck, but others are saying he just arrived and got shot in the neck. So I'm not sure, but I don't want to not give him credit if that's the case.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so smart.

[Vince]

Yeah, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Vince]

Like what a quick action to take that you just block the shooter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I would have never thought of that.

[Vince]

And putting yourself in harm's way like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's amazing. Whoever thought of it. Yeah, it was high five.

[Vince]

How pissed off was she when that happened?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's like the best move.

[Vince]

Yeah. So after firing 30 rounds of ammunition, Spencer barricaded herself inside her home for, like, it was like, six hours. So then on a hunch, a reporter from the local paper called the phone number that was associated with the address, and a young girl answered. It was Barbara. The reporter asked if she knew where the shots were coming from, and she said her address. And the reporter Pointed that out. She said, yeah, who do you think's doing the shooting? And the next question was, why? And she said, I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I weirdly have chills right now.

[Vince]

Chills.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause Also, sorry, but 16 is. It's such a rough age anyway.

[Vince]

And that answer is so sad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's. It's someone that gave up.

[Vince]

Like, someone that. Yeah. Doesn't understand the levity of what they're doing. Is that the right word?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the opposite, but I understand what you mean. Gravity of what you're doing.

[Vince]

Gravity of what they're doing. That would have sounded so much better if I had gotten that word right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is what we're about. Not sounding good.

[Vince]

My favorite murderer. She spoke with police negotiators who were telling that. Telling them that she had shot the. Telling those she had. They had made easy targets, and that's why she shot them, which is so fucking creepy. And she was going to come out shooting, but ultimately she surrendered. And the police found beer and whiskey bottles around the house, but she didn't appear to be intoxicated.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, so this is probably not the greatest home life, right? Perhaps.

[Vince]

Right. Well, 14 years into her sentence, she gave a TV inter. Which she said that she was high on whiskey, angel dust, and pot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What? Hold on. That's not. That combination is insane.

[Vince]

But here's the thing, is that at the time of her arrest, her toxicology reports came back clean.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So is she lying?

[Vince]

Either she's lying or the toxicology reports were incorrect. And keep in mind, she's saying these things at a parole hearing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it wouldn't get her anything to lie.

[Vince]

No, it would. It would get her out. I mean, you would think that if she was. Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, like, that's her excuse. Okay.

[Bridger Wein]

But however, there.

[Vince]

But there were those bottles around the house because her dad was now, like, a fucking alcoholic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But. Sorry, it's just so crazy to. I just think, sure, you drink whiskey and then you smoke pot. Angel dust is like what insane bikers do.

[Vince]

San Diego, that was like a suburb back then, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I mean, it's like a chill beach town.

[Vince]

And like, us talking about, like, has anyone ever offered you peyote? No. And they have ever offered you angel dust?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. Like, we. You could barely get pot when I was growing up. That was like. You were so excited when someone's cousin came back from Hawaii or whatever. Totally.

[Vince]

And it was almost like there was this. Remember, dare was that. Did you have that then? So dare was. What was it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dare to keep your kids off drugs. Drug addicts really engaged. I know. Mothers against drunk Driving.

[Vince]

Basically in the 80s and early 90s, there was this, like, program to keep kids off drugs called Dare People on drugs, Carolyn. Drugs. And I was in that. I was like in the perfect, you know, in the epicenter of that. Thanks, Nancy Ray. And.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Where you had to pledge. Right. That you wouldn't do drugs.

[Vince]

Yeah. And at the time, I was like. When I was like in sixth grade, I was like, well, I'm never going to do angel dust, but I kind of want to try pot, you know? But like, I thought that would lead to angel dust. And when I found out, like, that my parents smoked pot and that, like, people I knew smoked pot, it was like, oh, everything's a lie. So I'm just going to do everything, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Vince]

Just say something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Vince]

Like, no one gets angel dust is my point exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a crazy. Unless her father was some kind of, like, dealer or a biker or like somebody that kind of lived in that fringe life. But when you do angel dust, you go insane and you have superhuman strength.

[Vince]

And it sounds like something she would have made up because she didn't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Vince]

You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It sounds like it. Yeah. It sounds like a very fakey, dumb combination.

[Vince]

Yeah. Like saying cocaine would have made more sense, but she probably didn't even know to say that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Although if we refer back to the classic film Friday, there is that part where Chris Tucker's pot is laced with angel dust and he ends up in the pigeon coop. Remember, he's like, freaking out. I mean, it happens, like. But I also don't think you'd be able to shoot a gun very accurately if you were on angel dust.

[Vince]

Also, why would someone put angel dust in pot? Like, you're just spending more money because.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They'Re trying to ruin your Rolling Stones concert.

[Vince]

Oh, sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know.

[Vince]

Kitten is going crazy. Okay, Blah, blah, blah. Okay. So her parents had separated before this happened, and she lived with her father, Wallace Spencer, in virtual poverty. And they slept on a single mattress.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In the living room floor together.

[Vince]

Yep. Acquaintances later said that Spencer that she expressed negative attitudes towards police and I talked about shooting one. Teachers described her as introverted and she started hanging out with other troubled youth and became obsessed with Alice Cooper, which, like. Yeah, which actually he's like a crazy intellectual. It's like, so hard to think about people, like, using him as an excuse. And he's like, an incredible intellectual.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also, isn't he super into golf like when he doesn't have makeup on.

[Vince]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's just like kind of an old dude with too long hair.

[Vince]

And that was like performance art, too. Like, he wasn't even serious about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but I don't. When people try to say that, it's like, too bad. You're making the money off of people taking it seriously. So you have to take it seriously. Because I've seen Alice Cooper. Like, I grew up with Alice Cooper. Being on TV with blood in the corner of his mouth. Everyone took it seriously. There's nothing performance art about it. It's not like you're in a black box theater.

[Vince]

Yeah. You could be, like, just kidding afterwards.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Vince]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm really mad at Elle's kids.

[Vince]

I can tell. Is that your father? I hate you, Dad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I hate you. I will go to the dance.

[Vince]

All right. So in December, which is the month before the shooting happened, a psychiatric evaluation was recommended for her, and they said that she should go to a mental hospital due to her depressed state.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh oh.

[Vince]

But her father refused to give permission. No one go to rehab. I said, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dad says it's fine. Everything's fine.

[Vince]

Look at me, I'm three months.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm dead. So is everybody else. I love that song.

[Vince]

But so, yeah, I do too. For Christmas. So he said no. He wouldn't let her go to rehab. And then for Christmas, he gave her a ruger. No, a 10.22 semi automatic.22 caliber rifle. Sorry for everyone who fucking knows about guns that I just butchered that telescope sight and 500 rounds of ammunition. Oh, no. She had asked for a radio.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her father gave her that gun.

[Vince]

She asked for a radio for her birthday. And her dad, who had just been told that she should go to psychiatric mental hospital because she was depressed, gave her a gun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, he's a real piece of work.

[Vince]

I mean, some people shouldn't have children, it turns out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck, that's heavy.

[Vince]

And she said later that I felt like he wanted me to kill myself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She said also, 500 rounds.

[Vince]

Yeah. That's a lot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I agree.

[Vince]

Yeah. In 2001. Later, she accused her father of having drunkenly subjected her to beatings and sexual abuse. But he said the allegations were not true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't feel good about a single mattress on the floor in the living room.

[Vince]

Abso fucking totally not. She was tried in his adult. She finally came out with put her gun down. Came out. She was tried as an adult. Pled guilty to two counts of murder and assault with a deadly weapon. Sentenced to prison for 25 years to life. And then in prison, she was diagnosed as an epileptic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I have that.

[Vince]

I know. Uh. Oh, wait. And then. And then. And she received medication while at California Institute for Women in Chino, California. It's her neighborhood, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Vince]

Great. But then later. Here's the fucking kicker. During tests while she was in custody, it was discovered that she had an injury to the temporal lobe of her brain attributed to her accident on her bicycle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fucking childhood head injury.

[Vince]

Send him back like we said last. Send him on back if your kid hits his head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, you know what? I just had a realization that all of the helmet bullshit. That for years I've been like, this is dumb. And these helicopter parents are crazy. What if they've just wiped out an entire generation of serial killers by making sure children have helmets on all the time?

[Vince]

Definitely, dude. I bet you're right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's heavy.

[Vince]

That's so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, some will slip through just because it was meant to be.

[Vince]

Some don't even need a hand injury. They're just like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're like.

[Vince]

To begin with, they're hell bent. Yeah. Their parents making sure that they're just terrible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is a crazy fucking head injury.

[Vince]

Just like so many serial killers out there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Vince]

Fuck, man. All right. At a hearing in 2001, she said that her father beat and sexually abused her. And she submitted a written statement in which she said that her father had begun fondling her when she was nine and sexually assaulted her virtually every night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Vince]

Which is like, why, you know, why didn't you come out with that earlier? I don't want to doubt her, but it's like, that's a hard thing to talk about when you really did these horrible things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, she could have disappeared, maybe dissociated so that it was this. She's in this world now where she's killing people. It's like everything is a cry for help. And maybe she was on angel dust.

[Vince]

And maybe she didn't understand the connection between her father sexually abusing her and her wanting to die and so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And kill other people. The rage that she felt.

[Vince]

I didn't mean to victim blame, and I totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no. We're just. We're just talking about theories.

[Vince]

And here's how you. Here's. So the father never admitted to any of this, but he was visiting her in a juvenile detention facility after her arrest, and he met a girl who resembled Brenda, but was younger. They went on to have a sexual relationship, and he married her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ew.

[Vince]

So clearly he has a fetish for fucking Underage girl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He does not like it.

[Vince]

Like his daughter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. He's not against it.

[Vince]

Nope. That's like enough proof, I feel like, from hell.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Vince]

That it's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's.

[Vince]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Insanely dark.

[Vince]

In 2009, the parole board ruled that she would be denied parole and wouldn't be considered for 10 years. So she'll be eligible again in 2019.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Vince]

But in a 2001 statement, she acknowledged her possible role as the inspiration for later generations of angry kids, saying she said, quote, with every school shooting, I feel I'm partially responsible. What if they got the idea from what I did? Oh, and of course, finally, the song I Don't Like Mondays, written by Bob Geldof for his band Boomtown Rats, was released later that year based on that song. And I just want to go ahead and say that this is everyone listening. This is our new karaoke song. I Don't Like Mondays.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That song, I remember in high school finding out that that was about a girl that did a school shooting. And it was just like the most fascinating thing.

[Vince]

It changes that song completely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just assumed it was British, though, since Boomtown Rats and that guy. He's Irish.

[Vince]

He's not from here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think he's Irish.

[Vince]

Is he?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He is not from here, but yeah, I just assumed it all happened in the uk. We'll safely say that.

[Vince]

Yeah. No, but they were. They were playing at the time in San Diego, I think when her trial was going on. They were playing in San Diego.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, wow.

[Vince]

So they kept seeing headlines of her being the I don't like Monday's girl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

See, that super bums me out. Because. And maybe this is just a bias because it's a female shooter. It's like a 16 year old girl where I just so understand the mindset no matter what. But then fact after fact, on top of that is like, that girl did not have a chance. Nope, she didn't have a chance.

[Vince]

I wish she had had. You know, clearly some people cared about her, that they took her to a psychiatrist and that they put her in like a school for. Or they put her in with counselors.

[Bridger Wein]

Who were there for troubled youth.

[Vince]

They tried.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Vince]

And her fucking shitty parents just wouldn't let her have that. Like, what if he had said okay and she had gone to this mental institution? I know she would have been fine also.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's. So I just would like to remind us all of the garbage truck part, because I really like that part.

[Vince]

What about like, hell, yeah. They probably saved so many lives that day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Seriously. And Just kind of like blocking off the whole thing of, like, no, you're not doing this anymore. Like, that's so badass.

[Vince]

It's brave and fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just quick thinking and, like, sharp problem solving.

[Vince]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I like it. Wow, that's heavy.

[Vince]

Yeah. That's fucked up, right? So that's the Cleveland elementary school shooting.

[Bridger Wein]

Uh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was heavy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was. This is one of those stories, especially in California, that's just like.

[Vince]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can't believe this actually happened.

[Bridger Wein]

Well, what sucks so bad? I mean, we'll say this till our fucking faces turn red, but the fact that this happened in 1979, we're talking about. I'm talking about it in 2016, and it's still a topic that we must discuss and happens all the fucking time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Bridger Wein]

I will say, based on the details of this case, I do think the father would have been held accountable nowadays, and I really like that the parents of shooters are being treated, you know, as perpetrators as they should be. So this father who allegedly. Abusive father who bought her a very depressed daughter that he refused to let get treatment, then bought her a gun, a semiautomatic rifle for Christmas when she had asked for a radio, like, he should be held responsible. So should she, of course.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But, yeah, no, no, you're right. There's like, you can track how this happened and how clearly it was a path that could have been diverted multiple times. I do want to say, though, back then, but especially now, the idea. It's like, whoever's responsible on that end, our leadership and politicians in this country who have politicized this event, like it is one side against another, or it's political at all. That it's political at all. As opposed to we are letting children die at public schools, we are letting teachers and children get murdered at school. Is. It's reprehensible and insane and it has to stop. And just this. It's the idea of, like, this concept has gone so far and we have been forced to get. We have gotten used to it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Other countries look at us and go, this is disgusting.

[Vince]

Yeah.

[Bridger Wein]

Well, what's so crazy, too, is that it's become a conversation. These manipulative people do this thing where they make the conversation about something else. So you're yelling about this when really that's not what it's about. Gun. It's not about gun rights. They've politicized it and made us start yelling about gun rights when really that's not what this is about. This is about children not being slaughtered. You know what I mean? Whenever you're having the wrong conversation, the right conversation never gets brought up correct.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I think it's like they're saying, you cannot have any adjustments on this because any adjustment is a betrayal of my experience violation somehow. Well, as a woman in the year 2024, let me talk to you about rights being violated left, right, and center.

[Bridger Wein]

Truly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, truly. No, you've got to make adjustments. And the idea that you don't want to, to the detriment of children just trying to learn. Like, you know, my sister and I have had multiple conversations. She has been a grammar school teacher for 30 years. She teaches first graders, like, shooter drills and lockdown drills.

[Bridger Wein]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a part of her life, and it's absolutely disgusting. It's like that kind of thing where we should stop adjusting to it and.

[Bridger Wein]

And normalizing it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so does this case get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Getting back to the story you just told. Does this case have any updates now?

[Bridger Wein]

It does. So In August of 2022, Brenda Spencer waived her right to a parole hearing until 2025, which I guess some people do because they believe they won't be able to get parole anyway. So at the moment, now it's 2024. She's still incarcerated at the California Institute for Women in Chino, California, but she'll have another parole hearing next year.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think in the story you say that she is known as, like, the grandmother of school shootings.

[Vince]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I'm sure she's like, I'm probably not ever gonna get out of here.

[Bridger Wein]

Well, she does talk about that. I think I mentioned that, you know, that every time she hears about a school shooting, she's like, I am somehow also responsible for this. So it does seem like she has some remorse. Oh, all right. So now it's your story. This might be one of the, like, first times you were like, let's do an old timey story. So we're not like. So it's not so fresh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the kind of thing where it's like, clearly we're starting to process what we're doing, how we're doing it, the effect of it, all of those things. Which is pretty interesting too. I mean, part of the reason it's kind of hard to look back. And then it's also kind of interesting cause it's like, well, then how do you pivot if you're like, this is a concern I have all the time. Because, you know, we don't want to make mistakes that we Made in the early days, Right? And so suddenly it's like. But there are stories to tell and there is validity in telling them.

[Bridger Wein]

Yeah, like there's an evolution. So here is Karen's story about the deadly nurse nicknamed Jolly Jane. Jane Toppin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I took it back because of. I kind of wanted to do this anyway because when we talk about things, it's so funny that we fully do this podcast, love it, enjoy it, and yet bum ourselves out every week after we talk about our topics. So I was like, how about a little distance and we go back in history a little bit and we don't have to be so present day and so have to feel it so much. So I went all the way back to 1885.

[Vince]

Oh, I have no feelings about that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who gives a fuck?

[Vince]

No, I don't give a shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Weird outfits and like high neck dresses and shit. Racism, all kinds of isms. The nurse, the deadly nurse Jane Toppen is my person. You may have heard of her. She.

[Vince]

It's okay to laugh at this because it's from the 1850s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Anything before 1900, you can laugh and laugh. She was an Irish immigrant whose mother died of tuberculosis when she was very young and whose father, a Taylor, was a well known alcoholic and eccentric who some say after her mother's death, tried to sew his eyelids shut because he was so insane with grief and alcoholism.

[Vince]

Oh, what does that have to do with anything?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's just like this is this. It's just painting the picture of where we're even starting with this girl who is a child when this happens. That is, some articles say it happened, some say it was a rumor and it was just basically, everyone knew this dad was a nut.

[Vince]

That's how fucking crazy everything was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was super crazy. Yeah. It speaks more just to him and his reputation. The crazy Taylor up the street. So a few years later, that dad drops off. Her name at the time was Honor kelly, and she's 6 years old and her sister is 8. And the dad drops them off at the Boston Female Asylum, which is a girl's orphanage. Documents from the asylum note that the two girls were, quote, rescued from a very miserable home.

[Vince]

Oh, no, honey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So even if he wasn't crazy enough to do something as totally saw the Saw movie series as sew his own eyelids together, it was bad news. So after two years at that orphanage, Honora Kelly, if I'm saying her name right, was placed as an indentured servant in the home of Mrs. Ann C. Toppin of Lowell, Massachusetts.

[Vince]

So she was like eight or ten.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Eight years old.

[Vince]

Eight years old. Can you imagine a little. Little servant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

An eight year old indentured servant, maybe.

[Vince]

Like, can you go get me my. Run my bath, 8 year old?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or like, probably scrub the dishes and like lift. I mean, like, they didn't care. This was 1885.

[Vince]

Oh, that's so sick.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They didn't give a. Yeah, kids had.

[Vince]

Kids were just like little humans.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. This is when they were like, get them in the factory because their little arms can go into the machine.

[Vince]

Yeah, it was dark, dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is also why I love Charles Dickens, because all of his stories include all that, like, child labor shit. Roughly around this time. Yeah. Where it was like, we wouldn't know if it weren't for like those stories. Or be like the last thing that would ever happen to most children these days, at least in America, right? Yeah, kind of. Anyway, so Honora was never officially adopted by the toppins, but she took their surname and eventually became known as Jane Toppan.

[Vince]

Which is so weird that you're like, I'm not part of the family. I'm just your fucking servant. So I'm taking your last name.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I'm your lifelong child servant.

[Vince]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Living in your house. So in 1885, she began training to be a nurse at Cambridge Hospital. So during her residency, she used her patients as guinea pigs in experiments with morphine and atrophine. So she would basically go into patients who are like on a morphine drip and she would give them atrophine, which I'm pretty sure is like an upper.

[Vince]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she would play back and forth with sending them out and bringing them back over and over again. Oh, my God.

[Vince]

Just let them go to sleep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, no, she. Because she basically got sexual. She got aroused sexually from seeing people be brought to the brink of death and then come back and then go back.

[Vince]

The fuck does that have to do with sex?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, so I think this might be shedding a light on some fucked up shit that happened to her beforehand somewhere in the past. If there's a book about her, I will read it. She. Some shit happened. So she would do that to these patients and then get. Because she wanted to see how it affected them, but also would get into bed with them and hold them as it was happening. She told police after her arrest that she got a sexual thrill from being near patients when they were being next to patients when they are near death, coming back to life and then dying again. So this is by her own admission, that this got her off, which Is, you know, everybody's into something.

[Vince]

Aren't they, though?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she would get. She would administer the drug, and then she'd get into bed with them and hold them close to her as they die.

[Vince]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Huh. And then this article says that this is rare for female serial killers. They usually kill for material reasons.

[Vince]

Sexist bullshit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or that the. On average, it's not sexual satisfaction. That's man's domain, which, you know. And so in a way, I'm proud of Jane because she broke that glass ceiling and did. And she got hers. Sorry, that's wrong. So she didn't get caught, I guess, because she was recommended for Massachusetts General Hospital in 1889, which this article says is prestigious. And there she killed a couple more people.

[Vince]

And so she was actually killing people because it sounds like she was bringing them back. But certain people she wasn't bringing back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She would bring them back a couple times, but ultimately let them die. And that's what got her off.

[Vince]

Oh, okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it was like she would play with it, and that would be, like, you know, crazy. But I guess didn't get caught and kind of was able to cover it up. I read a thing about how she kind of messed with the charts. So everything was. You know, it was. Back then, it was just like, yeah, people die, whatever. And I think no one would. No one would suspect a woman. No one would suspect a nurse.

[Vince]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, so she goes to Mass General and then kills more people and then gets fired. So probably, like, someone was sharp and on it and a little bit like, too many people have died under your watch. So then she went back to Cambridge, but she got dismissed for prescribing opiates recklessly, which is like, how is a nurse prescribing anything? But I guess that's how they did it back then.

[Vince]

She sounds fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She sounds like she parties and she forces other people to party.

[Vince]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Till their death.

[Vince]

To death.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like a fraternity. So then she. Of course. What's her natural next step if she gets fired as a nurse at a hospital?

[Vince]

Private nurse.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Private nursing is exactly right, Georgia. That's right.

[Vince]

Find her killer right here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. So she flourished as a private nurse despite complaints of petty thefts. So Jane couldn't handle her shit. She had her hands everywhere. She'd all kind of like.

[Vince]

But she's a good nurse.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But you know what? She gives me a bath real good.

[Vince]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So then as a private nurse, that's when she really starts her poisoning spree.

[Vince]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In 1895, she killed her landlords which is a great solution. We've all been there. In 1899, she killed her foster sister Elizabeth with strychnine, which is, I think, a very painful way to go. It's no morphine, atropine ride.

[Vince]

It's no 99.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's no nighty night, good morning. In 1901, she moved in with the Davis family because the elderly patriarch was Alden Davis, and his wife had died, and so she was there to take care of him in his old age. Well, it turns out she killed his wife. That's why she got the job.

[Vince]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So within weeks, she had killed the patriarch of the family, Alden Davis, and two of his daughters. Within weeks?

[Vince]

Honey, you're being so obvious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Honey, pace yourself, dude.

[Vince]

Pace yourself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is a marathon, not a sprint.

[Vince]

Like, one per family is what you get.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, you do know people catch on to, like, mass murdering an entire family. So after that happened, she moved back to her hometown and began courting her late foster sister Elizabeth's husband. So she's like, took.

[Vince]

I thought you said hoarding.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She was hoarding him to herself all over the house.

[Vince]

So that's shitty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She then kills his sister and then poisons him so she could earn his love by nursing him back to health, for fuck's sake. And then she. When that didn't work, she poisoned herself out of. To try to garner his sympathy.

[Vince]

Actually, that's kind of smart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it didn't work, okay? And so he cast her out of the house, which is something people did in the late 1800s. She was cast out even though she was sick. Well, she got over it because she probably gave herself the tiniest little bit of strychniner.

[Vince]

Sneaky snack of strychnine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just put a little bit on top of her biscuit. So the rest of the Davises, who hadn't been terribly murdered in that house, ordered a toxicology exam on the youngest daughter that had died. And they found that she had been poisoned. And so they put a police detail on good old Jane toppan. And on October 26, 1901, she was arrested for murder. And by 1902, she confessed to 31 murders.

[Vince]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, girl. And she's quoted. This is one of the reasons that I picked this story. And it made me laugh. It kind of makes me like her. There's something about this that I'm being.

[Vince]

A little ridiculous because the victim's family, it's like, three generations later.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's like, right? There's no guilt, no angry letter from a Davis?

[Vince]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How dare you? So she was quoted. She told the cops that her ambition was to, quote, to have killed more people, helpless people, than any other man or woman who ever lived.

[Vince]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's what she wanted and she tried her best.

[Vince]

Does she know, like, did she have a reason why? Like, did she think she was helping hopeless people?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think. I think there's some angel of death nurse types that do think they're helping or like the doctor that I did.

[Vince]

Peter Robert Pinkerton. Pinkerton.

[Bridger Wein]

Pink Woodward.

[Vince]

Richard Word.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Richard Wirt.

[Bridger Wein]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pink Richard Word. Yeah. That guy, I think, was trying to convince himself. It was like, if they're a little bit older, take them out before they suffer.

[Vince]

Yeah, but he was getting, like, early 70 year olds.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, no, he. I mean, I guess I was saying he was probably rationalizing it to himself a little bit, but that couldn't have been the real reason. But this one, no, I think she just literally got off on helpless people and killing people and. And taking advantage of helpless people, which is the creepiest.

[Vince]

Damn, dude, I bet there's got to be something, like by the time you're six and you've lived in this fucking depraved, fucked up household world, and then you move to a fucking school for girls in Boston. So it's, you know, probably real fucked up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Vince]

You just don't have any empathy anymore.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, hit yourself in the head with a swing at that point. Because you're Dundee.

[Vince]

Yeah. Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her sister, her older sister stayed in the. In that orphanage like a couple years longer than her and then basically eventually became a prostitute and died of alcoholism in the gutter, so.

[Vince]

So she got the better of the two lives.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She really. She went out and she made a life for herself. But I feel like, yeah, those. Those. The Kelly family of the. Of the Taylor, the famous Miss crazy Taylor Kelly, they didn't have much of a chance.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They was dark.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Angela's Ashes style. Darkness.

[Vince]

Don't date anyone ever. Like, that's. Don't invite anyone into your home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Easy for you to say. You're married.

[Vince]

He could be a fucking serial killer for all I know. What if he was? He's not. He's totally not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's not.

[Vince]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And if he is, what a great episode that would be.

[Vince]

He had a great run.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You've had a great life. He gave you everything. He gave him great nightgowns up until the point that he murdered you. He has been so good to you.

[Vince]

Yeah. If he murders me without me knowing that it's him that murdered me. Then I die happy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God. You'll just go out in your sleep. Yeah, like an ax in the back of your head. Listen. On June 23rd, 1902. No, no, no. This is the end of it. She was found not guilty by reason of insanity.

[Vince]

Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At the Barnstable County Courthouse. But she was committed for life in Taunton Insane Hospital. And then she died August 17, 1938.

[Bridger Wein]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she lived in the mental hospital for quite some time.

[Vince]

What would you give to go fucking have a chit chat with her?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just be like, listen, Jane, hi. I know that's not your real name. Jane.

[Vince]

She's like, here, you want a sneaky snack?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, thanks. No. I brought my home in this Ziploc bag. Just want to know what happened. Did your dad sew his eyes shut with leather shoelaces? I'm adding that part because it's so disgusting.

[Vince]

He was a tailor, so I bet there were clean stitches.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet he did it real quick. And it was only like 12 bucks.

[Vince]

Which is 24 bucks in our.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In today's standards in the post Internal Crazy.

[Vince]

What was her name?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her name is Jane Toppin.

[Vince]

Fuck. Dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I'm sure there's much more. There's much more to know about her. I really do want to read like a full on book. I'm sorry I can't give you all of the.

[Vince]

No, that's a good sum.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like there's lots more information to be had. I just don't have how pissed are.

[Vince]

The toppings that she moved in with? They're like, we gotta change our name now because this is our legacy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well also. Yeah, you know what? Too bad then Maybe don't hire 8 year old indentured servants.

[Vince]

You actually. Yeah, you're right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You get. You deserve all of it and more.

[Vince]

Deserve your bad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, what if something happened to her in that like that's where it kicked off. Like she was like, everything's terrible. Everything's terrible. Okay, now I'm this orphanage. Okay, well, at least I have this job as Nate your. And then things really kick off at the Toppin's house.

[Vince]

It's like rape city or.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, or like dark. I mean, what. Who hires an eight year old indentured servant? Yeah, you creep. You old rich creeps.

[Vince]

Yeah. God damn it. Yeah, everything is fucked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. I see that. I don't know.

[Vince]

You see the positive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I see the light at the end of the tunnel.

[Vince]

I guess she probably lived longer than anyone else did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I also think of like what if you were laying in the hospital and you're like, you feel terrible. And then you're like, oh, yeah, morphine drip. Yeah. And then you're like, whoa, now I'm on speed.

[Vince]

And you're like, this hot nurse. Let's pretend she's hot. This hot nurse is laying next to me. Fuck. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She actually isn't bad looking. There's a really great picture of her on Wikipedia. And she's actually attractive looking. But there is. She got the kind of like. She got the eyes where you're like, oh, you don't want to be in the bathroom with her at the same time. She's one of those people that, you know, she'd immediately start talking to you.

[Vince]

Real close, close, crazy eyes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I buy your mascara? No. No. You can't back it. Three steps back. Jane.

[Vince]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're not doing this.

[Vince]

We're not best friends immediately.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. And that's not sanitary.

[Vince]

That's crazy. That's a good one. I like. I like old ones.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I do, too, sometimes. It's a nice break.

[Vince]

We should do a couple. We should throw them in there because it's been real depressing lately. I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let's. Do you know what do you want to do next week? A theme of, like, really, really old ones. Like, weirdly from the 1500s or something.

[Vince]

Oh, like oldie times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, like weird old. Like. Did you ever see in the Name of the Rose with Sean Connery?

[Vince]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a real good movie about. It's Sean Connery and Christian Slater, actually.

[Vince]

What? Those two people don't belong together.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. It works. They're monks and they go to this creepy. I mean, I don't even know. It could be a much earlier year. I don't know anything. It's like the Dark Ages. And they go to this monastery where priests are. Is it a monastery that's nuns. They go to where priests live. Because these priests keep dying in weird ways and they have to investigate Sean Connery. I think it's during the Spanish Inquisition, whenever that was.

[Vince]

I love all that shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Me too. And like, the first time I saw it, I was in high school, but I was like, this is fucking fascinating. Because it was like. It was back when, like, murder was a little bit normal.

[Vince]

Yeah. And you didn't live very long, so it wasn't like you took a ton out of their lives.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. But there've always been serial killers.

[Vince]

Yeah. Let's do. Let's do. Let's say the 1500s and then do anything around there, like between 13 and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

17, let's say the 1500s, then get within a 700 year mark of that.

[Bridger Wein]

Okay, we're back. Karen, any case updates on this very old case?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jane toppan died in 1938. That's one. It is funny to think about that. It is an interest of like historical true crime and like, oh, this is something that human beings have been doing to each other since the dawn of man. And we can be talking about this in a way that feels a little less risky or, you know, a little less. Like we're going to mishandle something, which is cool. But then also it's like, it's very strange where we've done. Is it Harold Chipman? I mean, like, it's like there's these repeat stories of certain types of serial killers or mass murderers where you think of it only as starting now or starting in the 80s or something. And it's like, oh, no, Jane was Jane. They think she might have killed 100 people. I think it is.

[Vince]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wild.

[Bridger Wein]

I mean, this is like exactly why Buried Bones is such a good show too, I think, or such a popular show is because people wanna hear about these, you know, that things were just as fucking bad in the past.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, and if you haven't listened to Buried Bones, you absolutely should not just cause we're fans of Kate Winkler, Dawson and Paul Holes, but the idea of people taking modern day like forensic science and then Kate's historical like research brain and applying them to these old cases that up until this point have just kind of been sitting there. We are imagining that they're just sitting there. It's like, wait, you could move forward on this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This could be solved.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or it could be. We could get to an actual answer.

[Vince]

Yeah.

[Bridger Wein]

Analyzing it with like, you know, today's science.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pretty cool.

[Bridger Wein]

Fascinating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Bridger Wein]

All right, well. Is that it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I think it's. This episode was originally titled because 7, 8, 9. But we have some options of what it actually could be named.

[Bridger Wein]

Okay, so Sleep Helping Podcast, which I think it kind of is. I hear from a lot of people that I meet who listen that they fall asleep listening to it or at least try to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's very romantic.

[Bridger Wein]

I'm very honored.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm always wearing a tomato red house dress as I podcast Sleep Helping. Now I need a Sleep Helping podcast. There's also the title, Girl, it's working. Which is me saying to you that you're trying to seduce me by wearing that red house dress. And I'm letting you know, yes, girl, I see you.

[Bridger Wein]

I mean, this isn't sexy, by the way. This is a grandma. That's my house. Dresses are like your grandma's caftan muumu. And this is that. But my knees are maybe showing, so there's nothing seductive about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It didn't really seem to be at the time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think that's the brilliance of our comedy. There's a lot of opposite Z comedy.

[Bridger Wein]

Oh, I love it. All right, well, thank you guys for listening to another episode of Rewind. We appreciate it so much. Stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye, Elvis.

[Vince]

Do you want a cookie?