Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 25: Twenty Knives

Summary

Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 25: Twenty Knives

Podcast Information:

• Title: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
• Host/Author: Exactly Right Media – the original true crime comedy network
• Description: My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast where Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark share compelling true crimes and personal stories from their lives and listeners.

---

Episode Overview

In Episode 25 of "Rewind with Karen & Georgia," titled "Twenty Knives," Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark revisit one of their early and impactful episodes from July 14, 2016. This episode delves deep into the chilling case of Christopher Dorner and the infamous Cheshire murders, providing both retrospective insights and recent updates.

---

Recapping Episode 25: Twenty Knives

The hosts begin by reminiscing about their early podcasting days, highlighting how "Twenty Knives" set the tone for their investigative and conversational style. Patrick Gibson opens the discussion with humor, referencing their unconventional episode title:

Patrick Gibson [02:01]: "20 knives. That doesn't make any sense."

Karen counters with her signature wit, emphasizing the playful nature of their episode naming conventions.

---

Christopher Dorner: A Deep Dive

One of the primary focuses of "Twenty Knives" is the case of Christopher Dorner, a former LAPD officer whose shooting spree in 2013 shook Southern California. The hosts provide a comprehensive timeline of Dorner's descent into violence:

• Background: Dorner served in the United States Navy Reserve, deployed to Bahrain, and was honorably discharged in 2013.

• Conflict with LAPD: In 2008, Dorner filed a report against his training officer, Teresa Evans, alleging excessive force. The LAPD fired him for making false statements, a decision that fueled his manifesto and desire for vengeance.

Patrick Gibson [22:03]: "So he went and killed that lawyer's daughter and fiancé because this guy went crazy."

The episode details Dorner's calculated attacks, including the murder of Monica Quan and Keith Lawrence in Irvine, and the subsequent police responses that tragically resulted in civilian casualties.

Karen Kilgariff [22:44]: "What you're doing is just killing them. Don't even think about it."

The hosts critique the LAPD's handling of the manhunt, highlighting critical errors such as the indiscriminate shooting of innocent civilians and the eventual culmination of Dorner's spree in a dramatic standoff.

---

Cheshire Murders: A Haunting Tale

Transitioning to another harrowing case, Karen recounts the Cheshire, Connecticut home invasion, where Joshua Komisarjevsky and Stephen Hayes brutally attacked the Pettit family. The episode offers a meticulous breakdown of the events:

• The Invasion: On July 22nd, Jennifer Holman-Pettit and her 11-year-old daughter Michaela were targeted by Joshua and Stephen. The assailants committed multiple murders and heinous acts of violence against the family.

Karen Kilgariff [51:13]: "It's super crazy because in the amount of time between when they went to the bank and came back is when all of the major crimes happened."

• Psychological Profiles: The hosts explore the psychological backgrounds of the perpetrators, discussing potential motives rooted in past abuse and emotional turmoil.

Patrick Gibson [70:00]: "He probably was correct in her using excessive force and he was probably."

• Law Enforcement Response: Critiquing the police response, Karen and Patrick highlight failed interventions and the overall inadequacy in handling such severe home invasions.

Karen Kilgariff [67:02]: "That was like our podcast version of…"

---

Case Updates and Reflections

Towards the latter part of the episode, the hosts provide updates on both cases:

• Christopher Dorner: The LAPD reopened the investigation into Dorner's termination but concluded that his firing was justified and did not find evidence supporting his claims of racism within the department.

Sarah Michelle Gellar [46:28]: "They found no basis for the allegations of racism that Dorner cited in his manifesto."

• Cheshire Murders: Updates reveal the abolition of the death penalty in Connecticut, resulting in life sentences for both Komisarjevsky and Hayes.

Sarah Michelle Gellar [75:00]: "The state of Connecticut abolished the death penalty... now they're serving life sentences."

Additionally, the hosts reflect on the evolution of their podcasting journey since 2016, acknowledging the growing awareness and scrutiny of police practices in recent years.

Michael C. Hall [76:10]: "It's really kind of crazy to listen to and kind of think about these early episodes again."

---

Notable Quotes

Throughout the episode, several poignant and memorable quotes underscore the gravity of the discussions:

• Karen Kilgariff [22:44]: "What you're doing is just killing them. Don't even think about it."

• Patrick Gibson [72:29]: "People don't strangle and rape people when they feel betrayed as a whole."

• Sarah Michelle Gellar [48:23]: "Between 2013 and 2021, there have been 154 killings by police based on population. A Black person was 4.4 times as likely and a Latinx person was 2.3 times as likely to be killed by police as a white person in Los Angeles."

---

Conclusions and Closing Thoughts

In wrapping up "Twenty Knives," Karen and Georgia emphasize the importance of understanding the multifaceted nature of true crime cases. They balance their discussions with analytical insights and heartfelt empathy for the victims, advocating for systemic changes to prevent such tragedies in the future.

Karen Kilgariff [41:58]: "Like, this snares you right into the Christopher Dorner story. SNARES. You into everything that's happening right now."

The episode serves as a reflective piece, celebrating the growth of the podcast while reaffirming their commitment to shedding light on dark and complex true crime stories.

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Final Remarks

"Twenty Knives" stands as a testament to Karen and Georgia's dedication to true crime storytelling. By revisiting pivotal cases with new perspectives and updates, the episode offers both veterans and new listeners a comprehensive understanding of some of the most disturbing crimes in recent history.

For those interested in delving deeper, the hosts recommend documentaries like HBO's Cheshire Murders and encourage listeners to engage with their content through social media platforms.

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Notable Timestamped Quotes:

• [22:03] Patrick Gibson: "So he went and killed that lawyer's daughter and fiancé because this guy went crazy."

• [51:13] Karen Kilgariff: "It's super crazy because in the amount of time between when they went to the bank and came back is when all of the major crimes happened."

• [46:28] Sarah Michelle Gellar: "They found no basis for the allegations of racism that Dorner cited in his manifesto."

• [75:00] Sarah Michelle Gellar: "The state of Connecticut abolished the death penalty... now they're serving life sentences."

---

Disclaimer: This summary is based on the provided transcript and aims to encapsulate the essence of Episode 25: "Twenty Knives" from "Rewind with Karen & Georgia." For the most accurate and detailed information, please listen to the full episode.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Miami Metro catches killers and they say it takes a village to race one.

[Patrick Gibson]

If anyone knows how powerful urges can be, it's me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Catch Dexter Morgan in a new serial killer origin story. It's hunger inside of you. It needs a master. Featuring Patrick Gibson, Christian Slater Special guest star Sarah Michelle Geller. With Patrick Dempsey and Michael C. Hall as Dexter's inner voice. I wasn't born a killer. I was made. Dexter Original sin New series now stream on the Paramount with Showtime plan. Go to paramountplus.com to try it.

[Christian Slater]

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[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. And if you celebrate. Merry freaking Christmas.

[Patrick Gibson]

Oh, hi.

[Michael C. Hall]

Merry Christmas. What'd you get? This is our new Wednesday episode where we recap our old episodes, we give you case updates, we talk about what we'd wish, we talked about the first time around, the whole shebang.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

And today we're recapping episode 25, which came out on Thursday, July 14, 2016, which we named 20 knives.

[Michael C. Hall]

Just a nice rhyme instead of 25. Sure.

[Patrick Gibson]

20 knives.

[Michael C. Hall]

20 knives.

[Patrick Gibson]

That doesn't make any sense.

[Michael C. Hall]

It's just a rhyme. Like it's amash to Nipsey Russell.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Okay.

[Michael C. Hall]

I mean, okay, look, listen. Okay, let's listen to how we started that episode.

[Patrick Gibson]

Here we go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did it start?

[Patrick Gibson]

Hi, Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Georgia. Hi.

[Patrick Gibson]

How are you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pretty good. How. And yourself?

[Patrick Gibson]

Thank you. Good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now, we've never met before. Is that correct?

[Patrick Gibson]

On person. This whole podcast has been over the phone, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Patrick Gibson]

But now you and I are legally married, so you can enter the country.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm so excited to not have to be Canadian anymore. It's such a disgusting place. Kidding.

[Patrick Gibson]

But we have to, like. We have to fake our mayor. Our green card marriage to the authorities, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Patrick Gibson]

So you're gonna have to know a lot about me. Who's my third grade teacher you like?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What did you say?

[Patrick Gibson]

Who is my third grade teacher?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, Mrs. Bacon.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yes. Sorry. Go on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I. Let's do more green card testing. I like it. That's a really funny thing. It's like if you you're not a true friend unless you memorize someone else's green card information so that you could pass a green card test.

[Patrick Gibson]

Would you green card marry someone?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It depends on the situation.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. If you're like, you're cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like I did that already.

[Patrick Gibson]

And you didn't even get anything out of it. You got some nice china.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I really think that that china has gone untouched and can be negotiated for. Comes in a hutch. Full set of gorgeous. Totally untouched, yet probably slightly cursed. Curse wedding china. I think this time around I'm gonna go for actually someone that I like and likes who likes me back.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it'll be better.

[Patrick Gibson]

I don't even think love needs to factor into it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think I could go for just high school crush style enjoyment of another person.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. Just I feel like the, like, this is the mantra. Stoked to be around. Like, you don't have to love them. You should be stoked to be around them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, what's the difference?

[Patrick Gibson]

That's a good point. Valid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's. That all works out in the end, right? You just kind of end up with somebody.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. Does that sound. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And try to remain stoked.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. And try to. Try to be your best stokeable person for them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Make sure you increase your stokability. Yeah. So you're not, like, resisting it.

[Patrick Gibson]

Don't even increase it. Just, like, make sure your stokability is, like, on an even plane at all times. Like, not at all times. Because you can. Today I lost my. And cried and was, like, probably not the stokiest person in the world.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I don't. Who would want that all the time to be around.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. Plus, I look so cute when I cry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You really looked great when you answered.

[Patrick Gibson]

The door all Matt, My eyes get bright green.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So do mine.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I look like that one alien lady from Star Trek when I cry.

[Patrick Gibson]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where it's, like, legit. It legitimately scares people because my eyes turn red in one instant.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's. I kind of look like Firestarter a little bit.

[Patrick Gibson]

Also, you light fires because you just get so angry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I tell you who I'm stoked on right now?

[Patrick Gibson]

Please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is going to go into. I'm not sure if this is Celebrity center or our new segment called Recommendations. Wait, do we call. Do we call that anything before when we talked about TV shows we like?

[Patrick Gibson]

No, let's just call it. Check this, check this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ben Air. Boom. The new HBO series the Night of is so good.

[Patrick Gibson]

So good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I am so Intensely in love with Riz Ahmed, who's the lead guy.

[Patrick Gibson]

How is he so cute?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's because his eyes are unnaturally large. And he uses them against you.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, he is a trickster. He looks so innocent in this and sweet and like, what was he in before this? Sad. He was in Nightcrawler. Was assistant in Nightcrawler. And he's been in. He's been in a bunch of stuff. He was like in the Centurion movie with Michael Fassbender. Like, shit.

[Patrick Gibson]

You're just like, oh, yeah, that guy was in that. The one guy. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He often plays a Middle Eastern person. So it's that. Because he's Pakistani.

[Patrick Gibson]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so, like, he was in the Reluctant Fundamentalist, I believe it was called, with Ray Donovan. You know, it's. And he's British. That's the most amazing thing.

[Patrick Gibson]

Is he British? Stop it. So it's. It's one episode and that was like in the. And it was like a pre showing of it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So, like, sneak preview.

[Patrick Gibson]

We don't even get the second episode. And what is it tonight?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Someone told me it was tonight.

[Patrick Gibson]

Someone told me that they're showing the actual first episode tonight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So reshowing the one we've already seen.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. Which is stupid. So maybe not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll watch it.

[Patrick Gibson]

Fuck. It's so good. It's about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like a play.

[Patrick Gibson]

It's like a play. It's about a dude who basically finds. Let's say he finds a body. Let's just say. And why explain it and go watch it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, Because. Because once you get into it, see, like, when I saw the previews, I thought I knew what it was.

[Patrick Gibson]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then once I watched it, I was like, oh, this reminds me of the way the Wire felt.

[Patrick Gibson]

It's a. Who done it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

And John. It's like a. Who done it with John Turturro. What more do you fucking need in your life?

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also all those actors, like that guy that played the one cop with the mustache at the station is from Angels in America. Like, there's all these Broadway and like, very high level but not like super commercially known actors in there. So it all feels really real.

[Patrick Gibson]

It does feel. I like that. So the main cop, really, it's. The procedural shit is interesting because the way they talk him into getting a DNA sample from him and then casually say, we also need to swab your dick, bro.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

Was like. It seemed so realistic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's horrifying. It's just horrifying.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. And they're like, why do you need a lawyer? Casualty of it all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's not give too much away.

[Patrick Gibson]

All right? Get into it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You. It's you. You'll thank us.

[Patrick Gibson]

Get into it. Come back to us. Let us know what you think.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, keep your eye peeled for Riz Ahmed, who will be one of the stars of the next Star wars movie. He's just an up and comer. He's. He's a fresh, young face.

[Patrick Gibson]

That will be mine, says Karen Kilgariff. Then that's Karen Kilgariff's take. That's like. That's like the. Like the movie review on, like, Entertainment Tonight. And that's Karen Kilgariff's take.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That part's over. Wait, didn't you have a recommendation?

[Patrick Gibson]

I think that was it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, we had the same one.

[Patrick Gibson]

No. Yes. But we were also talking about bloodline and how you said it. What were you saying about Florida?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can't. I couldn't watch it for. I tried to, like, binge watch it, but I started getting high on Florida where I was feeling dizzy. It was all those, like, beautiful, slightly out of focus shots of the beach. And, like, when all the Christmas lights go, it looks like the beginning of the focus features title card. That's what that whole TV show's like.

[Patrick Gibson]

It's also like. It's like 102 plus all the humidity.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Patrick Gibson]

You know, and then what's her name, the sister?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Linda Cardellini.

[Patrick Gibson]

Thank you. Like, I knew you'd know that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I. Yeah, I'm a fan.

[Patrick Gibson]

Like, her outfits for a lawyer. Are. Are you kidding me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, you mean like her very skimpy sundress and all?

[Patrick Gibson]

She wears these skimpy as shorts and these, like, platform, like Payless. And I'm not talking on Payless because I wear the out of Payless shoes. But you can't go into a court of law dressed like that. You'd be held in contempt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Girl, that's Florida.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah, it's a lot. It's. And her hair is always so perfect. I know. I'm lady shaming right now. Well, it's a TV show, and Kevin is just the most realistic character in the whole show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that the fuck up, brother?

[Patrick Gibson]

That's the fuck up, brother.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we had one of those in my family.

[Patrick Gibson]

Fuck up brothers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, no matter what happened when they were coming back into town, it was like, oh, everybody get ready.

[Patrick Gibson]

That's why I'm scared to have kids. What if you have the fuck up kid?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Oh, speaking of which, it's not one in four. Every four people's a sociopath.

[Patrick Gibson]

Let's do. This is corrections corner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Corrections Corner. Because I was about to say you had a 1 in 4 chance. I was about to repeat my same incorrect information. That's what I'm about to correct Me. And someone I believe off of memory was named Clint Page on the Facebook page who said, I don't want to be a corrected person, but it is not one in four. And then all these other people were like, it is. I think they were saying it's 25%.

[Patrick Gibson]

Right. It's like one. It's like, hey, oh, so next week. Look for next week's correction corner where we correct what we're saying right now. There's some. They're also so there. So one. There's one in four people are not psychopaths. It's like one in. It's not a percent. I don't know. It's not one in four.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is not one of four.

[Patrick Gibson]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's way too high. That's way too low. That's way too too many.

[Patrick Gibson]

Also, we got a really beautiful email just letting us know. So last week I did Kitty Genovese as my favorite murder. And also they.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kidney Genovese.

[Patrick Gibson]

Kidney Genovese. No, because I was sad because I think she got stabbed in the kidney. So. Karen, that's really insensitive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I misheard that she might have.

[Patrick Gibson]

It's probable that she was a lesbian.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. They talk about that in the Crime to Remember episode. Right.

[Patrick Gibson]

And it's not, you know, this real. This girl. This girl wrote a really beautiful email to us about how it's like she's not trying to correct us. And it, you know, it's not. It's just a part of it that's like not fair that she didn't get it to be represented and as how she was. And the squirrel who had to pretend to be her roommate, you know, actually had a huge loss of her partner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

And how sad that was. And you know, now we're in a time when we can. We can say that she was a lesbian and not it not be like somehow taint the tragedy of what happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, in that episode of Crime to remember, they talk about their. Their gay relationship as being also why people weren't calling the cops because they said there were other gay people in that building that knew, like, you don't involve the cops no matter what.

[Patrick Gibson]

Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was part of the element. But when you were talking about it because it was from the brother's Perspective.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wasn't going to be like. Well, and also this because it's like if it wasn't in the movie or if he didn't talk about it, maybe they didn't.

[Patrick Gibson]

Well, here's the thing. I didn't finish it because my fucking computer wouldn't upload it. So that could be the whole second part of the goddamn shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[Patrick Gibson]

That's. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, if everybody gets. I mean, that's awesome that somebody wrote in. If you get a chance. The A Crime to Remember episode about it is. Is really good too.

[Patrick Gibson]

We always close. What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They were the ones that. That thought that that guy did not do it. That got caught.

[Patrick Gibson]

Right. There was a neighbor. Yeah, we. We always close. Correction corner. Which we've never done before with saying, if you're getting your facts from here, like, look, look somewhere else, bro. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We are. We like to discuss concepts more than facts.

[Christian Slater]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And fantasies also.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

More than facts.

[Patrick Gibson]

Like, there's a reason that this podcast is categorized as comedy and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, very. A pretty good reason.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not drama.

[Patrick Gibson]

We're fucking hilarious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not fact based. We do our best, but there's so much talking that it's very easy.

[Patrick Gibson]

Oh, hey, guess what I did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Patrick Gibson]

Guess what? I didn't fit a manic episode last night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Patrick Gibson]

Started an Instagram account.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, nice. I saw you tweet that, right?

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. My favorite murder Instagram account.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And what are you putting on there? All our arts, I think.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah, all the arts and crafts and all the, like. I just love all the, like the inspirational quotes of every episode that are made by Chez Amanda. She does an incredible job of just like finding the stupidest quotes we put and like making them into like these like great posters.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Inspirational looking posters. But it's things like, I hope we don't get stabbed.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Right.

[Patrick Gibson]

Don't be fucking lunatic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's very good.

[Patrick Gibson]

So there's a lot of art that people are making that I'm posting and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, are you talking about the memes or are you talking about that girl that does, like, hand lettering?

[Patrick Gibson]

Both.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay.

[Patrick Gibson]

I put them both up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got it.

[Patrick Gibson]

So I'm just gonna post. I'm gonna post things and stuff related to the podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's good. We can also do pictures. Like, remember that time that I did that? There was that terrible man. Oh, he was one of the. He was in the story about the babysitter killer. Oh, and he had the craziest, scariest looking mug shot of all time.

[Patrick Gibson]

Go to Instagram to See his photo?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Okay, we're back. This is where we started with a lot of beautiful things. Our obsession with RZ Ahmed, our fucking Instagram account.

[Michael C. Hall]

I mean, things that really made us, built us as people and podcasters.

[Patrick Gibson]

Truly. Yeah, truly.

[Michael C. Hall]

That if you have not seen the HBO series the Night of.

[Patrick Gibson]

Oh, so Good.

[Michael C. Hall]

It is one of the most incredible false imprisonment stories. Incredible. And he's such a good actor, as we all know he is.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

This says he's gonna be Hamlet, an upcoming modern adaptation of Hamlet.

[Michael C. Hall]

Yeah, well, he's gonna be in it. Is he gonna be Hamlet?

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

This says he's going to be Hamlet.

[Michael C. Hall]

He's gonna be Hamlet.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Congratulations.

[Patrick Gibson]

What a role.

[Michael C. Hall]

Do you know that somebody. And I wish I had your name right now. I'm so sorry, but it is in my drawer, in my bedside table. Somebody embroidered that little bag. Do you remember that? They gave it to me at a live show. And it said it's embroidered Riz Ahmed's face and my face. And then it's the quote I have that. It's like some insane quote I said where it's like. It's something.

[Patrick Gibson]

You have to take a photo of it and send it.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

We'll post it on our Instagram account, which is yfavoritemurder, which is still going strong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right.

[Michael C. Hall]

You know what? I'm gonna take it out of that drawer. I'm gonna bring it. I'm gonna put it on the shelf behind me.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Yes, Alejandra, make her do it.

[Michael C. Hall]

Can you help me do that?

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

And give her credit, it says something.

[Michael C. Hall]

Like, I love him. Like, you know, with the power of a thousand suns.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Yeah, sounds right.

[Michael C. Hall]

Something real crazy that when someone embroiders it, you start to realize how insane you sound. And you try to stop saying stuff.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Like that, but you don't. And eight and a half years later.

[Michael C. Hall]

Here you are, try as you might. So this episode is. It starts heavy and then it gets really bad.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

You think we would have learned at some point, not just in the most recent past, to do a hard one and a soft one, but no. Nope.

[Michael C. Hall]

This is the way we do it. And apparently this is the way the listeners like it. So this is Georgia. She went first on this episode. It's the case of murderer Christopher Dorner.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

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[Michael C. Hall]

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[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

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[Michael C. Hall]

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[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

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[Michael C. Hall]

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[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

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[Michael C. Hall]

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[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

That's shopify.com murder goodbye.

[Patrick Dempsey]

This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more personal info in places that could expose you to identity theft. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, their US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with Lifelock. Save up to 40% in your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think you're first this week.

[Patrick Gibson]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. As you got perfectly comfortable. So uncomfortable just now, I waited till you adjusted that pillow.

[Patrick Gibson]

All right, so I didn't know that I have. I have a hometown murder, but it took place 15 years after I moved away from my hometown. So is it technically my hometown?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, if that's where you're from.

[Patrick Gibson]

So we got this really great email from this dude who was like, I've heard you mention you're from Irvine and that you worked in the Woodbridge Village center at this place where I could have been killed. And we're like, I just want you to know we're redoing it and if you come and like visit it, I'll take you to the parking garage where Christopher Dorner's killing spree started.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa.

[Patrick Gibson]

And I was. And he's like, which I'm sure you know about. And I was like, wait, what do you know about this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know about Christopher Dorner.

[Patrick Gibson]

So I do too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But.

[Patrick Gibson]

And this happened in 2013, which is like not that long ago, which seems like. It seems like so much longer ago. And I didn't realize it started in Irvine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't either.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. So in February 2013, Christopher Dorner, who was 33, started his killing spree that lasted, I think, two days. A couple days. Few days. Like A week. What is life? So he grew up in Southern California. He was a former United States Navy Reserve officer. He was deployed to Baharan. He was discharged from the Navy in 2013.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it's Bahrain. Bahrain. I just. That's a guess. Though. I could also be wrong.

[Patrick Gibson]

As I was saying it, I was like, I'm not going to be, like, a Fox News correspondent who says everything wrong. And so I, like, said it wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry.

[Patrick Gibson]

No, don't sorry me Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Patrick Gibson]

So after his tour in Iraq. It's Iraq, right? Or is it Iraq?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I pull that a out way longer.

[Patrick Gibson]

Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. He. He goes to Los Angeles. He. He goes back to the Police Department in 27. In 2007, he's paired with a training officer named Teresa Evans to complete his probationary training. In 2008, he files a report against her. Oh. That she used excessive force in her treatment of a suspect who was a schizophrenic with severe dementia. And he says that Evans twice kicked this suspect in the face while he was handcuffed and lying on the ground.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Patrick Gibson]

So after he files this report, Dorner gets fired from the LAPD in 2008 for making false statements.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Patrick Gibson]

They were like, you're fucking lying, basically. And his attorney at the hearing is Randall Quan. Q U A N. And he's, like, defending Dorner, saying that he was. He was treated unfairly, and he's being made a scapegoat, basically. You know, saying the police department didn't want to admit that she used excessive force, so they fired him instead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Because you're not. Basically. You're not allowed to rat out your fellow officer.

[Patrick Gibson]

That's what it seems like Dorner assumed. So he tries to get his job back, but the LAPD's Board of Rights rejected his appeal. He took his case to court with Randall Kwan as his attorney, and a judge ruled against it in October 2011. So Dorner's, like, basically snaps at this point. So the murders start, weirdly enough, with the murder of this Randall Kwan's daughter and her fiance in Irvine in a parking structure, which I was just looking up, and I'm pretty sure it's where my dad's apartment was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. Which is across.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like they lived in the same place.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah, I think so. So I think it happened across the street from where I grew up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Patrick Gibson]

Where my dad lived. Because I don't even know. So February 3, 2013, he just fucking goes up to them. They're in their car in a parking garage and shoots them. And like, remember that coming out in the news and it. And finding out who the father was and being like, oh shit, this is like. You could tell it was a revenge killing immediately. And it's just such a fucking huge bummer that this girl and her 27 year old fiance named Keith Lawrence just got shot to death because this guy went crazy. So immediately you have no sympathy for this dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this is his public defender that he basically. Or maybe not public defender, but this is his lawyer for that case.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who they lost the case and he didn't get his job back and so he went and killed that. That lawyer's daughter and fiance and he.

[Patrick Gibson]

Had this crazy manifesto. Basic. Basically saying. Basically saying that he didn't fight hard enough. He says your lack of ethics and conspiring to wrong a just individual are over. Suppressing the truth will leave the deadly consequences for you and your family. There will be an element of surprise where you work, live, eat and sleep. Look, look your wives slash husbands and surviving children directly in the face and tell them the truth as to why your children are dead as you killed them. Just. I mean, and the. Don't kill the judge. Not the fucking lawyer's family. I'm sorry. Right? Someone's gonna.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We don't have to pick.

[Patrick Gibson]

Okay, you're right. You know what? Don't kill anyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A B.

[Patrick Gibson]

All right, great. I'm gonna get hate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Send your.

[Patrick Gibson]

Send messages.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look, you were just trying to solve the problem, which would be don't kill the family.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But. Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

Right. So Monica Kwan and Keith Lawrence shot to death. So he has this crazy manifesto. He wants to seek revenge and he just like writes this insane. I will bring unconventional. Unconventional and asymmetrical warfare to those in the lap uniform, whether on or off duty. Like, this is like, he's on one. He's targeting a large group of people rather than, you know, individuals, which is terrifying. He says he was terminated after we reported excess force. And his. And his attacks are retribution for his termination as well as cultural racism and violence that continues within the department. So while search. So suddenly this huge manhunt is on for Dorner. Police shoot two so police suddenly just start shooting people because they're freaking the out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

So there's a truck that. That the cops thought was his truck. They shot the out of it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's. Those were the two women delivering the newspaper.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they just started shooting a truck.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. And if there's photos online of like how many fucking shots are in this truck. They also added another pickup truck matching this description of like a dude who was like on his way to go surfing in fucking Orange county or like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they shot it up.

[Patrick Gibson]

They shot the shit out of this truck. Both. Everyone lived. But they also sued the shit out of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, they did.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, I'm pissed about that. But I'm also like, how terrifying. I mean, which is. Which is better?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I mean, this is the kind of the crux of everything that's happening right now.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like you're. It is a high pressure job. It is a scary job. And it's the kind of job where you have to be able to handle yourself with a gun. So if you think that basically you can't start shooting vehicles because you think your suspect is inside. No, that's not the way you're allowed to apprehend people.

[Patrick Gibson]

And the other thing too is like, as a police officer, there's an amount of danger involved with your job that you sign up for. Yeah. So you approaching the vehicle and IDing the suspect and possibly getting killed by doing that is what's supposed to happen. Not the possibility of civilians getting killed. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. And I mean, and that's why there's procedures so that when you approach that vehicle, you're calling in, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, did they yell, put your hands outside of the vehicle? And those two women, they didn't get close enough to see it was two women. They didn't get close enough to see that they didn't speak English. I don't know what the problem was. I don't know the details about it, but like, it doesn't make sense that you just.

[Patrick Gibson]

It was also a Lar Joyner was a large black fan and he. They shot up two women and like a white guy who was a surfer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

So like clearly they weren't. Yeah, they weren't doing enough research into this. So they find his truck abandoned and burning near Big Bear. And I remember this, at this point I was like, fuck, thank God he's not in Los Angeles. Like, I totally didn't leave the house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Patrick Gibson]

And then two of Riverside's officers were shot in an ambush. One died, the other one was taken to the hospital. And then they believe he. They believe he just drove up to the vehicle and at a stoplight and fired with a rifle at these two dudes. 34 year old Michael Crane, who's on the Riverside Forest for 11 years, died. They searched at least 400 homes in the area. Terrifying. Do you think they Found anything in certain people's houses. They were like, we'll be back for this.

[Michael C. Hall]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Your weird sex swing in the corner.

[Patrick Gibson]

The Smith lab will be back for this. Oh, yeah, Right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Today's your lucky day. Yeah, but we'll be back. Tomorrow will be your unlucky.

[Patrick Gibson]

So the Manhattan enters its second week. So it was two weeks, and then Karen and James Reynolds are cleaning out their Big Bear cabin that they owned and rented out not far from the command center when they were confronted by Dorner, who had been living there for a couple days.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, so he broke into their empty Big Bear cabin.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. I also want to talk to Heron and James about why they're cleaning out their cabin at a time when there's a massive manhunt for, like, oh, that's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not gonna affect us. We'll just go up there and grab that wood bear toilet paper dispenser.

[Patrick Gibson]

You know, my Aunt Susie is coming up for the weekend, and you know how she gets about dust bunnies. Why are they. Why are they Southern?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's fun. That's how people know. We've gone into a scene lit, which is our newest segment. Seamless scene lits.

[Patrick Gibson]

So Karen and James. But they're kind of badasses because they were tied up in blindfold. Blindfolded. He took the keys to their maroon Nissan Rouge. Didn't know that was a car.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think it is anymore.

[Patrick Gibson]

It probably isn't because of this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Discontinued.

[Patrick Gibson]

But he. He kind of was. Like, he said to them, like, I don't want to kill you fuckers. Like, he. He wasn't trying to kill civilians except for the lawyers. I think he thought, like, no, he.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Had his kill list. He wasn't just going berserk.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Patrick Gibson]

He didn't want to kill this dude, this couple he just had. You know, he could have shot them and everyone and, like, taken whatever he wanted and lived there. He could have shot them and stayed there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he didn't.

[Patrick Gibson]

Right. Not defending him. Just saying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

So they used their teeth and a knife. They knocked off a nearby table to remove the pillowcases from their heads and zip ties from their wrists and then called 91 1. Fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shit.

[Patrick Gibson]

Dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Karen and who. What's her husband's name? Richard.

[Patrick Gibson]

Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're the hero.

[Patrick Gibson]

Karen and James Reynolds. So these. I mean, who escape escapes? Zip ties on the reg?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's Ryan Reynolds. Parents. That's why they're so awesome.

[Patrick Gibson]

Right? So let's see here. Okay. They spotted him driving.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry. This was in. What season is it is. Is there snow up there? Is it summertime?

[Patrick Gibson]

This is December, right? What did I say?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry.

[Patrick Gibson]

October, Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, you're really sad. I'm trying to paint a mental picture in my mind.

[Patrick Gibson]

Quiz your quizzes. Every week you quiz me, what season was it? What was he wearing underneath his coat? So this started in February. So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there was probably snow mid ish February.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yes, it's probably cold.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Patrick Gibson]

Why?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because I love Big Bear. It's fun. Have you ever gone like, inner tubing up there?

[Patrick Gibson]

No, but I need to the best. You mean like when you, like, hang out in an inner tube and drink beer and wander around the. Or like when you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that would be on a river.

[Patrick Gibson]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is what you're thinking of, right? That's summertime. But in the wintertime, in Big Bear, they have mountains just off the side of the road and you can rent inner tubes. And then you go up a little like cloth escalator up the side of the snowy mountain. Get up on the top. There's like a teen there with a whistle or whatever.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then you just go down and it is the most fun.

[Patrick Gibson]

If you're following an Instagram account, you will see a photo of me at five years old, inner tube and big bear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Going down the snowy hill. Nice.

[Patrick Gibson]

My dad lived in la. Cara had for a hot minute. Do you have a photo? Let's post her fucking tubing photos. Let's give the people what they want.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Instagram.

[Patrick Gibson]

Inner tubing murder and tubing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I might just put up a picture. Just a picture of an inner tube and just a celebration of inner tubes because they really. Summer, winter, fall. What a great vehicle for fun. The inner tube tubing.

[Michael C. Hall]

Sorry.

[Patrick Gibson]

No, don't. Never be. Oh, wait, where was I?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Karen and Richard have just escaped from the clutches of.

[Patrick Gibson]

Oh, my God. Then they find a purple car. Because how many purple Nissans are there on the roads? Probably not a lot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Purple Nissan rouge.

[Patrick Gibson]

I feel like that was this. Besides killing people, his biggest mistake? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't get into a purple car.

[Patrick Gibson]

Don't get into a purple car.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What do you. Guy Fieri. Get out of that car.

[Patrick Gibson]

Don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is not the time to floss.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. This is not the time to be quirky in your car. Escapism means the beige or white car. That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's exactly right.

[Patrick Gibson]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How about a nice gold Corolla? No one will ever look at you.

[Patrick Gibson]

Gold. That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You actually not like bright gold, but, you know, like a kind of muted.

[Patrick Gibson]

A muted gold.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A bronze Muted tones. A bronze.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

But you know what?

[Patrick Gibson]

A light blue. The car I drive. So boring.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, that's right. Light blue.

[Patrick Gibson]

I hate it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's.

[Patrick Gibson]

I want a car that, like, I walk into a parking garage, such as the one that these poor people got killed in, and I'm like, that's my orange car over there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You do want that?

[Patrick Gibson]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You do want an orange car?

[Patrick Gibson]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Patrick Gibson]

I really want an orange car.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What? Can you give me an example of an orange car?

[Patrick Gibson]

There's a lot of Honda fits that are orange.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yes, right. It's. Would you say it's a little more copper than, like, say, a clown?

[Patrick Gibson]

It's a burnt orange.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great.

[Patrick Gibson]

And I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what I'm looking for. Is not clown. Orange.

[Patrick Gibson]

Good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Patrick Gibson]

Can I go on?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. Also, how do you feel about dark blue?

[Patrick Gibson]

Electric blue, I'm cool with.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, cool.

[Patrick Gibson]

Elvis, you cool?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, cool.

[Patrick Gibson]

Okay, let's see. They find. They spot his car. He's tailing two school buses for cover. So a purple car is tailing two school buses.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean like to hide behind them?

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah, like to just be like, I'm inconspicuous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

No, don't do that. Gun battle ensues. He crashes and. And he runs and quickly hijacks. Carjacks a pickup truck again, saying to the dude, I don't want to kill you. Get the out of the car. Like, not gonna kill.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

Innocent civilian or like un. Not innocent, but un involved. Involved civilians goes to a cat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you just worried that maybe you. I'm not the douche.

[Patrick Gibson]

I'm just saying that those people are. Are innocent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

But they're not involved. So I don't say they're not innocent. They're innocent too. This dude Collins shows up at the. At the Big Bear cabin, where he's at the first there. Want to know where he gets shot?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, wait, wait. Who's Collins?

[Patrick Gibson]

Collins is this cop, this San Bernardino police officer. Deputy. He gets to the cabin where Doran has run into after his. He crashes his pickup truck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, got it.

[Patrick Gibson]

He makes his final stand here. We're coming to a close. Don't worry. People who aren't into killing sprees, which I understand. Gundron, he gets from the cabin, he's shot. But he does, he lives. So don't worry about it. Yeah. Beneath his left nostril.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Patrick Gibson]

Shattered his teeth. And exits slightly below his jaw.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is the Collins.

[Patrick Gibson]

The new guy or Collins dude. Oh, shit. Who made a joke later that he looks better now. Than he did before. Like, he's a sweet baby angel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God bless him.

[Patrick Gibson]

I mean, he survived.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wouldn't hate getting my teeth shattered out in brand new ones. I'll just say that.

[Patrick Gibson]

Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm just saying there's always a positive. No, I'd like him kicked out. Just kidding.

[Patrick Gibson]

So you're gonna come with me in a P.O. box or what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's how we'll do it. All of our dreams are gonna come true. I'll keep you from getting killed by putting my teeth in front of whatever. The weapon.

[Patrick Gibson]

She threw her teeth in front of the bullet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She gave up those Slant upward. Slanty Irish teeth as if they were nothing.

[Patrick Gibson]

Your teeth are. Says the girl with Invisalign. That sounds like a Madeline book.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yes.

[Patrick Gibson]

All right. Shot again, Mother. The Fort Collins shot again. Below his left knee. That's gotta hurt. And in his left arm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In his face and knee and arm.

[Patrick Gibson]

Which. This guy. This guy Dorner was a sharpshooter from the Navy, so maybe he didn't. I mean, you get shot in the face, you're trying to kill someone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're trying to kill someone. That's a headshot.

[Patrick Gibson]

That's a headshot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can't really talk your way out of that.

[Patrick Gibson]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, you made that list of people you were going to kill.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. Or like, this guy who, like, lives in San Bernardino, probably with, like, his sweet kids and, like, wife, whatever. Ex wife. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And now he's okay to the point where he can make jokes about it.

[Patrick Gibson]

That's what it seems. That's what the news says.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great.

[Patrick Gibson]

What the news? That's all I need to know sometimes. Okay. Yes. So. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good.

[Patrick Gibson]

So police toss smoke devices into the cabin, cabin catches fire and burned for hours.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he was inside.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. The sheriff, they said they found charred human remains among the ashes. So do we even know if it's his body? And also, people said that he had. He had a gunshot in his head, but we don't know that. I don't know if that's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he killed himself and then the cabin burned down?

[Patrick Gibson]

No. I think he probably was dying from smoke. And then. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then shot himself.

[Patrick Gibson]

You know, I stopped investigating at this point. Karen.

[Michael C. Hall]

Sorry.

[Patrick Gibson]

Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I just remember the story.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And it was like, they have him surrounded. They had him surrounded for a while. Then it was like, we're going in, and it was like, he's dead. It's over.

[Patrick Gibson]

I was watching this shit. Probably at a bar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Patrick Gibson]

You know, like this was a big news story here in la.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It really was.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

I think la.

[Patrick Gibson]

We hate our car. What are they called? Car trackers?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Carjackers?

[Patrick Gibson]

No, we. We, as people who live in LA for a long time, are sick of the news being like car chases. They're fucking egregious and stupid and obnoxious. I only saw one recently that ended amazingly, where this. This woman is, like, making all these crazy. No, no. This person is making all these crazy turns. I just gave it away. And she, like, finally stops, gets out of her car, hands up, it's a woman. Everyone in the public house that I'm in cheer because they're stuck, that it's a chick. And she starts walking towards him with her hands up, then makes a bolting beeline to the cop car to steal the cop car and go away. And everyone in the bar, like, is fucking cheering for her, and she gets caught. But it was, like, the sweetest move.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's amazing.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah, it was great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What drugs do you think she was on?

[Patrick Gibson]

All of them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Patrick Gibson]

At least what's the one they always told you not to do because angel does. Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's the one where you lift the cop car over your head.

[Michael C. Hall]

Let's.

[Patrick Gibson]

How about our Paris? Or what's not. What's it called? Our Instagram? No, the one you make money off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of on social media.

[Patrick Gibson]

The PayPal? No. Anyways, Patreon. Patreon. Thank you, Stephen. How about Patreon? We do angel dust and just see what happens. It's just a video of us doing angel dust. My kids. Here's what happens.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm putting this on the to do list. We're gonna get dusted.

[Patrick Gibson]

All right? And I'm finishing this up. So.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Sorry, but.

[Patrick Gibson]

But here's the crazy thing is the police. Los Angeles police announced the department reopened the investigation into his case that led to his termination after he was dead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Patrick Gibson]

And Chief Beck said, I do not appease a murderer. I do it to reassure the public that their police department is transparent and fair in all things we do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. I know when that happened.

[Patrick Gibson]

Recently, this happened on Google.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why have I asked you one question? I feel very.

[Patrick Gibson]

Should I be embarrassed?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, not at all. I just meant, like, was it a.

[Patrick Gibson]

I know what you mean.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I get. Here's my thing. Every. It seems like every day we spend, every other police department in the world looks terrible.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And slowly but surely, LAPD doesn't seem so bad. They really don't these days.

[Patrick Gibson]

These days they don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you watch the. The Simpsons 30 by 30, they don't look so good.

[Patrick Gibson]

They don't. And that's why I feel like they're trying to be like, sorry about that one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I mean something like that where it would be worst case scenario if it was like, what if he was right the whole time?

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's nightmarish.

[Patrick Gibson]

Well, some people get fired and don't go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Patrick Gibson]

But guess what? They don't get talked about on my favorite murder, do they?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Well, also the fact that there's a. Probably at least a 50, 50 chance he had PTSD from being.

[Patrick Gibson]

Absolutely. From being in Baharan. Where is it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bahrain.

[Patrick Gibson]

Bahrain. He probably had ptsd. His neighbors said that he was a member of an, of an admired, well liked family who usually kept to themselves. That's always a bad sign. Don't give to yourselves.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You guys put it out there on the porch.

[Patrick Gibson]

He was divorced in 2007, no kids. So he probably lost his mind. And then you lo. This job that you've been working towards since high school when you, when you went into the Navy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That's. You're probably your identity. And it's like, what?

[Patrick Gibson]

And he was probably correct in her using excessive force and he was probably.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Correct in the internal racism, which we all know is a very real fact that all police departments aren't allowed to acknowledge.

[Patrick Gibson]

Like, this guy would have gotten his day of celebrating if he just had not gone on a killing spree. Like I feel like by now he would have been like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I, but you know, they. Well, I wonder. That'd be really interesting to know if, like, if it goes back that, if it reverses itself. But the problem is like he was one of those people where he couldn't handle the shame. Like he was basically publicly shamed and had his identity taken away. And then it's like those, there are people who, if you, if you do that to them, they have to retaliate.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I guess sit with it.

[Patrick Gibson]

He, he reported this crime in 2008. It happened in 2007. He got a divorce in 2007. So it's just like he's in a world of pain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

So I did. So I of course went to Reddit because I'm like, what do they have to say? It's always something good. So. Doc Gray, 187000 As I read that, I'm like, he might be not 187. He says his manifesto sounded so plausible. I don't want people killed or otherwise. But it is understood that sometimes humans have to Kill humans, isn't it? Cops carry guns. Soldiers carry guns. The only question is justification. Right? So if the government and their guard dogs are thoroughly corrupt, as Donner asserted, and use unnecessarily deadly force, have callous disregard for human life, and are in a mutual protection agreement with prosecutors, what are good people supposed to do?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

And he says, do you know how Dorner was caught? He carjacked a dude on a secluded road and told him, I don't want to hurt you, and then let him go. And that dude turned him in. He also commandeered that cabin, but let the residents live. Contrast with the innocent civilians the LAPD hurt in their quest to get Dorner and his gruesome death. Who am I supposed to root for?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that's a. It's not a binary thing. It's not. You don't root for anybody. Because here's the thing. Those cops didn't want to kill anybody, but they were reacting. They are the ones being hunted.

[Patrick Gibson]

And maybe they weren't trained well enough to know what to do in a situation like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It immediately just makes me go. The night. The night that they investigated the JonBenet murder, they sent the two newest cops over because it was Christmas. Yeah, it's that kind of thing.

[Patrick Gibson]

Before we get hate mail, I want to assure everyone that I don't hate cops. I think they're fucking. I think the majority are working their asses off to be good people and have, you know, the best interest of. And it's a hard job. And you're putting your life on the line. You just only hear about the bad ones.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, but, and, but the problem is I heard a DJ talking about this. I teach about it. A dj. He was just saying there's never any. They just never cop to anything. And you can't do that when you're shooting people dead in cars. When you have people who are shooting people in the back or strangling them on video, you can't continually be like, they're innocent. They're innocent. That's when you're. Bill. If you. If you're never being a stand up, you know, and. And never. You know, these are obviously getting.

[Patrick Gibson]

If you're not getting punished by the higher ups and saying that they did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This thing wrong, that means that there's no accounting for the behavior.

[Patrick Gibson]

And it's acceptable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's a huge fucking problem. And if it's the same people. But getting targeted all the time, I mean, this snares you right into the Christopher Dorner story. SNARES. You into everything that's happening right now.

[Patrick Gibson]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In our culture.

[Patrick Gibson]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That'd be horrifying if it. If he was completely innocent and then just basically snapped, as opposed to the story that was built in. The media is kind of like, oh, here's this crazy guy that, like, tried to lie about somebody else, and, you know, they had. They had him, like, vilified from the beginning.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. Well, I just touched probably a ton of nerves of listeners, so go to my P.O. box and let me know what you think.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like people listen to this to get nerves touched. I mean, that's the whole idea.

[Patrick Gibson]

By the way, I also took down my P.O. box number.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. If you can't live with it, why do it?

[Patrick Gibson]

I can't do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

I'd rather not have presence from listeners.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it's fine.

[Patrick Gibson]

So. Yeah, that's my favorite murder. This. Irvine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Irvine.

[Patrick Gibson]

Kieran.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How was that?

[Patrick Gibson]

Was that okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Michael C. Hall]

Okay, we're back. Do you want to start with some case updates?

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

I mentioned that the LAPD reopened the investigation into Dorner's termination, and it concluded that Dorner's firing had been factually and legally proper and that his termination was not only appropriate, it was the only course the department could have taken based on the facts and evidence, end quote. And they also found no basis for the allegations of racism that Dorner cited in his manifesto. So there's just, like a blanket, you know, no fault.

[Michael C. Hall]

We didn't do anything.

[Patrick Gibson]

Right.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

We didn't do anything wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Patrick Gibson]

So take that.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Take that with 2024 eyes.

[Michael C. Hall]

I mean. Yeah, it's been going on for a long time.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

In August of 2024, these thieves robbed a man at gunpoint in Beverly Hills who they targeted for his expensive watch. And they were arrested, and it was discovered that they had a handgun that was once registered to Dorner in their possession. And as of right now, it's unclear how they got their hands on this gun. It's possible it was either stolen or sold by Dorner, but somewhere along the line, they acquired it. Okay, just an interesting little update.

[Michael C. Hall]

Okay.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

As you heard in that story, you know, we talk a lot about the police department, and I wanna remind people that it was 2016 when this was recorded, and we had a very different view.

[Michael C. Hall]

We still are two white ladies who have a very different experience with the police every single day than many people do.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

And there have been changes in recent years, but the LAPD continues to be one of the most corrupt forces in the U.S. according to policescorecard.org between 2013 and 2021, there have been 154 killings by police based on population. A Black person was 4.4 times as likely and a Latinx person was 2.3 times as likely to be killed by police as a white person in Los Angeles.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

And there have been almost 15,000 civilian complaints of police misconduct as well.

[Michael C. Hall]

I think I recommended this already, but a reporter named Cerise Castle did an amazing 15 part series about. It's called the History of Deputy Gangs in the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. And that was for the website Knockla. There's been a lot of reporting and deep dives into the corruption and the kind of like in depth. I don't know how to explain it.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Gang mentality.

[Michael C. Hall]

Gang mentality in what is supposed to be a public service that has a budget of like $2 billion here. So it's definitely the kind of thing that we didn't have to think about or worry about at that time. And it is, I think, a lot of white people. Since 2016, especially after 2020 and Ferguson and all that stuff, people's eyes have been really opened in a way that we got the almost like option to not have those eyes open for a long time.

[Patrick Gibson]

Totally.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

All right, let's go to another horrible story. This one is just one that comes up in your head all the time. It sticks with you. This is Karen's telling of the story about the Cheshire murders.

[Michael C. Hall]

Just a warning. It's a horrific case and it involves sexual assault and violence against children. So listen with caution.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Patrick Dempsey]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Run a restaurant and you learn pretty quick. The sound of a crisp fry starts way before the first bite. As delivery and to go keeps Business booming. McCain's sure crisp fries keep orders crispy.

[Patrick Gibson]

Hey, Delivery.

[Karen Kilgariff]

After the trip, the crispiness comes through. Mmm. McCain's sure crisp fries go the distance. See how far our fries can take your [e-mail] delivery. Mine happened in the same year.

[Patrick Gibson]

Oh my gosh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's a lot of similarities, which is super weird, interesting. And this is a murder story that I had two different separate non people that don't know each other. Friends of mine ask if I had done the story yet. It's the Cheshire murder.

[Patrick Gibson]

Ooh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you've probably seen a 2020 or a Nightline about it. It was super famous. It happened around the same time as the Oklahoma bombings. But it was more talked about in the news more consistently because it was that really infamous Connecticut home invasion story. That's a nightmare.

[Patrick Gibson]

Home invasion from start to finish is a nightmare.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a nightmare. And also it's just. This is just sinister and creepy because Cheshire, Connecticut. So there's a documentary on HBO called the Cheshire Murders. I highly recommend. I watched that this morning and it will tell you the entire story. But it's very hard because it's all the relatives. So it's just like everybody right there on camera talking about how it feels. And it's incredibly rough because this is a, you know, this is a multiple rape murder situations on a family who live in one of those towns where when they show all the shots it's like all the a frame houses with the lawns. There's no fences between any of the yards. And the area these people lived in was pretty upscale. So basically what happened is on the night of July 22nd at 7:30 at night, Jennifer Hock Pettit went to the stop and shop with her 11 year old daughter Michaela. And they're just shopping for groceries and they're spotted by a recent parolee named Joshua Komisyrjewski is basically how you pronounce the last name. They said it in this documentary probably 30 times. And every time I'd say it along with them or repeat it after I heard it. And I still. It's commissary or commissary Jefsky. I'm not sure. So this guy's watching them in the grocery store. I might as well just get to this part now. Very upsetting part in this documentary is this guy who is in his mid to late 20s, I want to say 27, but I can't see it on my paper. But he had a girlfriend in the years prior. And the father of that girl that this guy dated talks on camera about how they said that they thought they wanted to get married. And the father said, I have two problems with that. You're a career criminal and you're a pedophile. And he's like. And my daughter looks and acts a lot younger than she is. And so this girl who is the same age as him is on camera. And she completely. If you. If you said she's 16 or 15, you'd be like, sure. And she was like in her mid-20s.

[Patrick Gibson]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's. There was some part that got confusing where it was like, he also tried to date her younger sister. And it was a thing. So this guy. And of course it turns out that later in the documentary, it turns out that he was molested as a child. Very young, terribly and for most of his life. So he had. He was adopted. This father that they show a couple pictures of is one of the most disturbing looking individuals, like always right behind him, kind of creepy.

[Patrick Gibson]

Oh, my. How did I not see that documentary?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's pretty good. I mean, the thing is, by the time you get to the part where they're talking about what life was like for these two dudes that did this home invasion, you're like, oh, I don't care.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah, I don't care. These are monsters.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't care.

[Patrick Gibson]

Because that happens to a lot of people. Not a lot, hopefully, but. And they don't become monsters exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The only thing, though is it is interesting because when something like this happens over and over, people go, who could do this? How do you do something like, I don't understand. How could you do this? How could you do this? And most people just go from that question to kill them, just kill them. Don't. Why even give them a trial? It's that mentality which we all because so hard to comprehend.

[Patrick Gibson]

It's just like this compounded abuse that's just generations long. Probably because the guy who abused them was abused too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I mean, it's bad. All right, but it's interesting. No, no, because that's. That's the thing with pedophiles is that oftentimes that's. That's where it's coming from, is it happened to them. But it just. It puts a very strange light on an already very upsetting case. So they go home from this grocery store. The mom and daughter go home. This guy follows them home and goes and sees where they live. He had just. He was living in a halfway house, or he had just gotten out of a halfway house. He was just paroled. And so is his friend Stephen Hayes, who is considerably older. And also as a very long. Both of them have crazy long criminal records. Both are like burglars or whatever, this guy. And when they talked about Josh Commissaryski, they actually say he had a photographic memory. He was incredibly intelligent. He was an incredibly talented artist. And they Start showing these illustrations that he did. And they look so much. They reminded me immediately of the pictures in Silence of the lambs when Dr. Lecter has those hand drawn pictures of like Italy, you know, that like he's basically drawn his own pictures. So he. From memory, it's the exact same thing where this guy has these illustrations that are like so insanely detailed and beautiful and amazing. So. And he had, you know, so he's a smart person, but very cunning and very sociopathic. And so was the other guy, Stephen Hayes, two of his brothers in this documentary, talking about him, how he was a monster from their childhood. It was like burning their hands on stoves. Like nightmare older brother shit that they had to live with. So of course, in the end of this, when these two guys get caught, they tell the exact opposite stories of. It was this guy's idea. And so it's very interesting because one guy looks like something out of a movie of a bad guy. And the other guy looks like a young pot dealer that would live in San Diego. But the truth of it is they think that it's the young guy that was the mastermind behind of all the artist.

[Patrick Gibson]

The smarter guy. Yeah, sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So anyway, those two meet up at a bar and they talk about their plan and how they're gonna go rob this house. And at 3am they go up to the house and when they walk up, they see that Dr. William Pettit is sleeping on the screened in porch in the front. And so Josh goes and grabs a baseball bat from the front lawn that they passed on their way in, takes it and starts beating this guy in the head.

[Patrick Gibson]

How do you go to a house at three in the morning? Like you're just asking for go, you know, go in the middle of the day when no one's home, you want to find people there?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, they wanted, they wanted this. The Josh guy. Part of his thing was they said when he would go in burgle houses, he would go in different rooms, he would, he would pick places like it would be like a state trooper's house that he would be gurgling. And he would, after he stole all the things he wanted to steal, he would stand and listen to people breathing.

[Patrick Gibson]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh. And then also the guy that was talking about him, I think it was probably one of his old defense lawyers, said that he could remember every single thing he stole. Where it was where the like item, if he took a wallet out of a pair of pants, it was hanging on the back of the chair. Like he had photographic memory.

[Patrick Gibson]

Weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So that part of the joy of it was the fact that he knew that family was home. At least they know that. That was his pattern in the past. Okay, so they beat the father in the head, tie him up and put him down in the basement, and tie his wrists and ankles to a pole in the basement. He's got. His head is split down the front, and then there's like three huge gashes in the back of his head.

[Patrick Gibson]

Oh, honey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he's down in the basement. They have him shut down there. Then they tie up the mother and both daughters in each of their respective rooms, tie them hands and feet to the bed, put pillowcases over their head, and shut the doors of all those rooms. Then they ransack the whole house. And by the time they're done looking through everything, they're not happy with their haul. They didn't get enough. And they find a Bank of America. And they see that the amount in the bank is, like, over 15 grand, or it's a bunch. And so they're like, here's what we're gonna do. When it's 9am and that bank opens, you're going in there, you're taking out $15,000, and you're bringing it back here to us. And then we will leave you alone. So at 9am this woman goes into her bank, goes up to the teller, says, I'd like to withdraw $15,000. And as they're doing their business, she says, I'm doing this against my will. People broke into our house last night. The guy drove me here. He's in the parking lot outside right now. He has my family back at the house. His partner has the family back at the house. She actually was quoted, the teller said that. She said, they're mostly nice. I think they just need this money. And she's like, but you need to tell the police, because I was told to come in here and not say anything. And so, like, please handle this. And so the teller. There's a woman in this documentary who was in the bank when all this happened. And she said she saw the bank manager run from the teller's little depot into her office and shut the door and start making the phone call. So it happened, like, immediately. And then Jennifer Pettic got her money and left the bank. So she didn't wait around or anything, because surely she was probably on, like, a timeline or so. Stephen Hayes is in the car waiting for her outside.

[Patrick Gibson]

The other guy's back at home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The other guy's back at home. So they. They find A video footage, gas station video surveillance that Hayes had bought $10 worth of gas from two gas cans that he'd gotten from the pet at home before they went to the bank. So they know it's premeditated murder. So when they get back, does she know that?

[Patrick Gibson]

Oh, my God. Does she know they have gas, Extra gas?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know.

[Patrick Gibson]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because she's tied up in the room.

[Patrick Gibson]

So I think they're all business themselves.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So when. So this is where the stories split, because Josh has one story and Steven has the other. But Steven's story is he gets back from the bank with Mrs. Pettit and he thinks they're going to take this money. He's picking him up and they're leaving. When he walks in, Josh says, I have left DNA in one of the children. We have to burn this house down. We have to kill them and burn this house down.

[Patrick Gibson]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's when Steven's like, I was not in this. That in. According to him, he. He was like, this is crazy. Then he looks outside and sees that from the moment that bank teller got on the phone with 91 1, like, it was minutes later. They say, like three to five minutes later, cops were outside of this house. So they look outside. Steven sees that there's cops outside, which, you know, she had promised him he would not call the cops, and he goes crazy. Starts strangling her. The mom.

[Patrick Gibson]

Oh, no, I don't like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's bad. He strangles her. Rapes her after he strangles her. Oh, my fucking God.

[Patrick Gibson]

Okay. It's like a week away. It's like a week away from 4th of July. 4th of July passed a week ago. My fucking neighbors are still. This has been happening all week. They've been letting off fucking fireworks. That was the worst time that could have happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So loud.

[Patrick Gibson]

And I saw fucking. I saw the spot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I did too. And there was like a big flash.

[Patrick Gibson]

Huh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Patrick Gibson]

My heart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you want to shut that? Since now there's. Wow.

[Patrick Gibson]

Sake. We're trying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're trying to talk about murder.

[Patrick Gibson]

What the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, God, that's hilarious. So. Okay.

[Patrick Gibson]

I can't wait to hear that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

I think so many people have their headphones in right now and got so freaked out when that happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wonder because it was. That was crazy loud.

[Patrick Gibson]

And we both. We all freaked out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what? That was like our podcast version of, you know, in a movie when suddenly a car gets side.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fucking T bone.

[Patrick Gibson]

Or they closed the Coming. The. The medicine cabinet. And there's Someone we just, it was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, we like put that into our own scary, scary podcast. That was scary enough as it was. Guys, don't be mad at us because we're as upset as you are. We are, if not more. Now here come the cops. Did you hear? Did you hear that? Okay, so. Okay, so Stephen Hayes has just strangled and raped the mother. So turns out while they were at the bank, he, Josh, had gone upstairs and raped the 11 year old.

[Patrick Gibson]

The one who he thought looked like his ex girlfriend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, but she was 11. There was a 17 year old daughter.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah, that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, nobody went into her room ever after. So it's super crazy. And when you hear his confession on tape, it's super disgusting because he is using so many euphemisms and kind of trying to talk like they chatted and they were talking about school and I brought her a glass of water. Like it's all very sweet, borderline romantic in his mind. It's super gross. So then they pour gas over both girls still alive.

[Patrick Gibson]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then throughout the entire house, light the house on fire and then run out the front door, get into the Pettit's car, drive one block away, get pulled over and arrested. So the entire time now in the aftermath when they made announcements, the mayor or the city, you know, councilman or whoever were like, and we'd like to think that the police and fire did a great job and all this stuff. Well, it turned out from when they finally, because they had like kind of redacted all of this information, they weren't, there was a gag order on the whole story. They like the press couldn't report on it, on any details. They didn't know any details about it. And then they finally get like the phone reports and the 911 calls and everything. And they had a perimeter. They were setting up a perimeter five minutes after the 911 call came in from the bank. And they were all just sitting outside in that perimeter. No one had called on the phone, no one had knocked on the door, no one had even approached the house in any way. They heard Mrs. Pettit screaming and nobody went up. The house caught on fire and they still didn't do anything. So basically in the amount of time between when they went to the bank and came back is when all of the major crimes happened and the police were just sitting outside not taking action. Which, you know, it's, this is a town that was like 25,000 people. So again, and there were some people that argue that this is a small town, but this is a small town in terms of police handling major crimes. So they had basically no idea what to do and just set up a perimeter and waited and didn't do anything. So that. Like those. Those.

[Patrick Gibson]

God damn it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was. That sounded like an actual firework.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah, you could. I just saw, like, Disneyland thing out there. Yeah. Except this is Los Feliz. Yeah, Disneyland.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And fireworks are illegal in addition.

[Patrick Gibson]

And it's been happening pretty much every night since Fourth of July.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's. Isn't it like, July 10th now?

[Patrick Gibson]

It's like July 10th right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's six days later, guys. Anyway, to wrap it up, when Dr. Pettit escaped the basement, he. It was basically right around the same time as the house was lit on fire. He was, like, smelled the smoke and whatever. And so he. With his. I'm looking at fireworks over your shoulder.

[Patrick Gibson]

I'm moving. I'm fucking moving.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Dr. Pettit runs up the back stairs. His feet are still bound. He's hopping with a bloody face across to his neighbors, and there's a little forest in between his house and the neighbor's house. And he sees the cops hiding behind trees and is screaming, help my family. Save my family. As he's running over to the neighbor's house. And they're just keeping their positions.

[Patrick Gibson]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So all of that part. They effectively swept that part under the rug. And the family kept asking questions and, like, it was like, there's a gag order. We can't tell you anything. And it wasn't until the case happened that they found out all this horrible shit of all the really hideous details of what happened. And then they. Also, Joshua's diary was put into evidence. And basically, after they got arrested, they both turned on each other, said it was the other person's idea. And it's really hard to pull apart because even in this documentary, like, you can see how Josh could be the mastermind, but you could also see how Stephen Hayes could just. I mean, this idea, like, when his lawyer was trying to tell that story of, like, oh, we saw the cops, and that he felt very betrayed, and that's why he strangled and raped Mrs. Pettit. It's like. Yeah, I don't think so.

[Patrick Gibson]

No, people don't strangle and rape people when they feel betrayed as a whole.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, they say it's like an explosive anger reaction or whatever, but it's like. I don't know. I feel like they probably were planning on doing that anyway.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So anyway, they're convicted of the murders and they're sentenced to death in 2010. Well that was Steven Stephen Hayes was convicted in 2010. Joshua Kamasaryevsky was convicted in 2011 and sentenced to death in 2012. And in August 2015 the state of Connecticut abolished the death penalty. So now Hayes and Commissaryevsky are had both of their death sentences commuted and now they're serving life sentences.

[Patrick Gibson]

What do you think? Who do you think was the mastermind?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know it seems to me that it's the younger guy. It seems to me that it's the Joshua Komisaryevsky guy.

[Patrick Gibson]

He's the one who raped the 11 year old. Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's the one that had this kind of plan and I think he's the one that like the other guy was a burglar and kind of on drugs and stuff. I think that guy was a career criminal in that way. But I think Joshua had some really, really deep serious emotional problems.

[Patrick Gibson]

Well when you think of like hey. When you think of someone saying hey, I found this house that's perfect for us to break into, like one of them knows who's in that house and what's going on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Patrick Gibson]

The other one might not. And so it seems that he had an ulterior motive for sure and the other guy didn't at first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. He just wanted to make some easy money or like just thought it was like they're, they're out of jail, they're out of a halfway house. They need jobs. You can't get a job as an ex con very easily. You know, they're just trying to get back to it. And also that guy Joshua was kicked out of the army which is always a bad sign time. They don't, they didn't go into any of the details of that though. Anyway, the Cheshire murders, it's an old HBO documentary. So I found it on HBO now or Go or something on my Apple tv. But it's really interesting and really it just with everyone it's the considered the worst crime in Connecticut history.

[Patrick Gibson]

Poor little girls.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it with everybody because it was home invasion. So it was just like your utopian life can be invaded by two criminals who are, you know, it's almost like.

[Patrick Gibson]

There'S on one hand you have like burglary, you have, you're not home. Someone comes in, steals your shit. But someone who's bold enough to do a home invasion robbery, that scares the out of me. The person who would be willing to do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Patrick Gibson]

Is. Has no. Has no what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well part of the Enjoyment. At least they know for a fact that Joshua had was the fear that he liked the fear he put into people because. And that he actually wrote a bunch of stuff about it in his diary that was on this thing that was just basically like that's he feels that scared and. And freaked out and wants to scream inside all the time. And so it makes him feel better to see people torture like that.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah. When you're the one who's people are fear, then you're not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's deep. It's dark. And, yeah, I'm staying home from now.

[Patrick Gibson]

On for the rest of my life. But then what if there's a home invasion robbery?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also that's where all the fireworks are.

[Patrick Gibson]

So home is where the fireworks are, you know. Oh, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Patrick Gibson]

Elvis is hiding under the bed right now, so we can't end the show until he comes out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My friend Sean, who asked me if I was going to do this, the one that's from Cheshire, Connecticut. So when he watches document documentary, he kept talking about how freaked out he was because it was his. He goes, that's my bank. I've been to that bank so many times.

[Patrick Gibson]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, this was his hometown murder. And he was just like, he said watching this documentary. It was just like, that's his town.

[Patrick Gibson]

Oh, that's scary. Elvis Ellis doesn't want a cookie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cookie. I bet he does.

[Patrick Gibson]

All right, you guys go to Instagram. My favorite murderer. Twitter is my fav. Murderer. We have our Facebook group, of course. Thank you guys for listening. We really love this podcast and we appreciate that you guys listen. It's super awesome times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you know what?

[Patrick Gibson]

Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Elvis, want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Want cookie.

[Patrick Gibson]

All right, thanks, guys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bye. Bye.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Okay, we're back. Another story about police not having enough training.

[Michael C. Hall]

I mean, it's. Everything about the story is a disaster.

[Patrick Gibson]

And so horrible, heartbreaking, awful.

[Michael C. Hall]

And then meanwhile, fireworks go off as I'm trying to tell it. And that truly, I can remember when that happened. Like, I remember looking at you when it happened. It was one of the scariest things. Like, we had just had that whole, you're the Christopher Dorner story. I'm in the middle of telling this horrifying thing, and then it sounds like someone's shooting at your window.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

And I have to explain that my apartment, there was a little driveway next to it, like a 1930s apartment building driveway in LA, which is, like, impossible to drive through. So it was a tiny little. And then next to it was a little Walkway and then the other apartment. Like, we could just see right into each other's. Like it was so. And that's where they were setting off the fireworks. It was. They were always doing that. They were always grilling things. And the fi. In the fucking little driveway. And the fire would be, I mean, so crazy.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah, it was.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

It was a different time in our lives.

[Michael C. Hall]

Yeah. No respect for studioless true crime podcast that's being recorded.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Although one time the guy did bring me some of the meat that they had been grilling, which is really nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was it good?

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Michael C. Hall]

Yeah. Okay, so I have a couple updates to. Okay, this story. Well, one is just kind of random, which is one of the perpetrators of this crime, who in this story is identified as Stephen Hayes, has transitioned since there's really can't find a good source confirming what their name is now. This is kind of actually a really lovely kind of silver lining, which is that in the memory of his wife and daughters, William Pettit created the Pettit Family Foundation. And since he established it, they have raised over $10 million for stem chronic illness and violence prevention. So if you want to find out more about the Pettit P E T I T Family foundation, you can go to pettitfamilyfoundation.org and maybe even donate.

[Patrick Gibson]

Okay. That episode was a lot.

[Michael C. Hall]

You know, little did we know back In January of 2016, exactly what we were signing up for in pretty much every way, shape and form.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Michael C. Hall]

It's really kind of crazy to listen to and kind of think about these early episodes again.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Just like, wow, everything's changed and nothing's changed. Yeah, but everything's changed.

[Michael C. Hall]

So different.

[Patrick Gibson]

So.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

But there's so many things that are the same.

[Michael C. Hall]

I know in some ways, we're kind of stuck in a weird time loop.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Yeah.

[Michael C. Hall]

So we better get it right this time.

[Patrick Gibson]

Let's try. Let's try.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

All right, so. Because, I mean, I don't think we can get any better than 20 knives.

[Patrick Gibson]

20 knives. So genius was brilliant.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

But based on what we name the episodes these days, which is, you know, a callback to something silly that was said in the episode, what would we name it now?

[Michael C. Hall]

Look somewhere else, Bro. Which was you basically saying, if you're getting your facts from here, look somewhere else, bro. Which is very accurate.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

And it's great that we've always known.

[Patrick Gibson]

That and stood by that and that.

[Michael C. Hall]

Our audience loves to remind people who try to come in and be like, hey, guess what? We know that. And they know that this isn't the.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Place this isn't even Wikipedia.

[Michael C. Hall]

We're beginners.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

We could name it Tubes Tubing about inner tubes.

[Michael C. Hall]

Or Home is where the fireworks are in a scary storytelling show than a scary audio experience, which is just like. I don't know if I've ever been that scared in that moment, but I.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Kind of love it. It just like that. That's where we started.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

You know, it was real.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause it was hot.

[Michael C. Hall]

The window was open because it was hot.

[Patrick Gibson]

Yeah.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

And there, you know, it was an apartment. There's nothing you can do about it. That's where we started.

[Patrick Gibson]

That's where I lived. I loved it.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

And sometimes fucking fireworks went off next to your door.

[Michael C. Hall]

It'd be really cool if right now Alejandra opened the door and just threw.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Two fireworks at us and we'd like, boom, boom.

[Michael C. Hall]

It's still the same.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

All right, well, thanks for listening to this episode of Rewind.

[Michael C. Hall]

It feels like people are loving Rewind, so we're very happy to be doing this for you.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

If you could rate, review, and subscribe on wherever you listen to podcasts, that would be really helpful and awesome. We appreciate that.

[Michael C. Hall]

You know what also would be really helpful and awesome?

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

If you would stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Patrick Gibson]

Goodbye, Elvis.

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

Do you want a cookie?