Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary: Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six

Podcast Information:

• Title: Rewind with Karen & Georgia
• Episode: 26: Twenty Six Six Six
• Release Date: January 1, 2025
• Hosts: Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
• Network: Exactly Right Media

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Introduction: Setting the Stage

In Episode 26, titled "Twenty Six Six Six," Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark dive deep into some of the most harrowing true crime cases they've previously covered. Released on New Year's Day 2025, this episode serves as a reflective rewind, where the hosts revisit past stories with fresh insights, updated commentary, and necessary retractions.

Georgia Hardstark [01:03]: "This is our Wednesday episode where we recap our old shows with new commentary updates and potentially retractions if necessary."

Highlighting Listener Engagement

The episode opens with Karen and Georgia reminiscing about their journey since the podcast's inception in 2016. They emphasize the importance of listener contributions, sharing heartfelt anecdotes about the unique and sometimes bizarre gifts they've received from their audience.

Karen Kilgariff [06:22]: "Georgia had a little pile of presents waiting for me when I got home to her apartment from work… And one of them I opened too because Georgia was slightly afraid they could be a bomb or something dangerous."

Mary Bell: A Case Study

One of the central narratives of this episode is the tragic story of Mary Bell, a young girl whose life was marred by severe abuse leading to heinous criminal behavior.

Background and Early Life

Mary Bell, born to an unstable 17-year-old mother involved in sex work, endured a childhood filled with neglect and abuse. Her mother's actions, including attempts to abandon her and possible Munchausen's by proxy, significantly impacted Mary's psychological development.

Karen Kilgariff [28:11]: "She was born to a unwed, unstable 17-year-old sex worker named Betty McCricket. Betty used to leave her daughter with relatives and acquaintances…"

Crimes and Investigation

At the tender age of 11, Mary Bell was implicated in the murders of two young boys in England. Her chilling demeanor during interrogations and the discovery of evidence pointedly indicated her involvement.

Karen Kilgariff [37:06]: "Creepy enough that the coroner says you're probably gonna want to look for a kid because a kid strangled a three-year-old."

Trial and Aftermath

Mary's trial was unprecedented, and the media frenzy that ensued painted her as the epitome of evil. Despite her young age, Mary was convicted of manslaughter, highlighting the complexities of prosecuting juvenile offenders.

Karen Kilgariff [45:07]: "She was sent to a psychiatric hospital in exchange for her testimony against Joel. Hedda was not prosecuted, and Joel was charged with first-degree manslaughter."

Lisa Steinberg: Another Tragic Tale

Transitioning from Mary Bell, the hosts delve into the heartbreaking story of Lisa Steinberg, a six-year-old adopted girl whose life was cut short due to severe abuse by her adoptive parents.

Adoption and Abuse

Lisa was illegally adopted by Joel Steinberg and Hedda Nussbaum, a couple with a history of abuse and substance abuse. Despite initial appearances of a happy child, Lisa's teachers noticed signs of abuse, such as bruises and missing hair.

Liza Trager [49:31]: "Lisa Steinberg, this poor little angel baby… Lisa's teachers said she was bright and friendly, but they worried about her arriving at school with bruises and chunks of hair missing from her head."

The Incident and Legal Proceedings

On November 1, 1987, Lisa was found unconscious with severe injuries, leading to her death four days later. The subsequent trial revealed a tumultuous relationship filled with abuse, leading to Joel's conviction for manslaughter.

Liza Trager [55:04]: "They were a well-educated, upper-class New York couple living in Greenwich Village…"

Deep Dive: Empathy, Justice, and Reparations

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing the nuanced approach Karen and Georgia are adopting in their storytelling. They reflect on evolving perceptions of empathy towards perpetrators, especially those who were themselves victims of abuse.

Georgia Hardstark [19:31]: "We were figuring out how to talk about true crime in a way that we hadn't been taught… feeling our way through empathy and justice."

The hosts grapple with the moral complexities of understanding a perpetrator's background without excusing their actions. They acknowledge the ongoing challenge of balancing empathy with accountability.

Karen Kilgariff [25:34]: "Whenever there's like a child molester or a murderer or someone, we talk about their past and we're like, yeah, that sucks."

Personal Reflections and Broader Implications

Karen and Georgia share personal insights into how these stories have influenced their understanding of human behavior and the justice system. They discuss the lasting impact of childhood trauma and the limitations of societal support systems in preventing such tragedies.

Georgia Hardstark [21:52]: "If you're struggling to leave an abusive partner, we wanted to give you a few resources."

Conclusion: Advocacy and Support

Ending on a poignant note, the hosts advocate for supporting survivors of abuse, providing resources, and fostering a community of understanding and assistance.

Georgia Hardstark [69:32]: "The National Domestic Violence Hotline is free, confidential, available 24 hours a day, and it's 1-800-799-SAFE."

Liza Trager [69:42]: "The National Domestic Violence Hotline is free, confidential, available 24 hours a day, and it's 1-800-799-SAFE."

Final Thoughts

Episode 26 of "Rewind with Karen & Georgia" is a profound exploration of true crime cases intertwined with personal growth and societal reflections. Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark adeptly navigate the delicate balance between recounting tragic stories and fostering a deeper understanding of the human psyche and the complexities of justice.

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Notable Quotes:

• Karen Kilgariff [25:34]: "I'm not defending Mary Bell."
• Georgia Hardstark [19:31]: "We were figuring out how to talk about true crime in a way that we hadn't been taught…"
• Liza Trager [69:42]: "The National Domestic Violence Hotline is free, confidential, available 24 hours a day, and it's 1-800-799-SAFE."

Resources Mentioned:

• National Domestic Violence Hotline:
  • Phone: [phone]-SAFE (7233)
  • Website: thehotline.org

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This episode serves as a testament to the podcast's commitment to not only narrate true crime stories but also to engage in meaningful conversations about empathy, justice, and the human condition. For listeners seeking a deep and reflective take on some of the most disturbing cases, Episode 26 is both enlightening and emotionally resonant.

Transcript

[Kara Klenk]

This is exactly right.

[Liza Trager]

Listen up. I'm Liza Trager.

[Kara Klenk]

And I'm Kara Klenk. And we're the hosts of the true crime comedy podcast that's Messed up, an SVU podcast.

[Liza Trager]

Every Tuesday, we break down an episode.

[Kara Klenk]

Of Law and svu, the true crime it's based on.

[Liza Trager]

And we chat with an actor from the episode.

[Kara Klenk]

Over the past few years, we've chatted with series icons like BD Wong, Kelly Giddish, Danny Pino, and guest stars like Padgett Brewster and Matthew Lillard.

[Liza Trager]

And just like an SVU marathon, you.

[Kara Klenk]

Can jump in anywhere. Don't miss new episodes every Tuesday. Follow that's Messed up and SVU Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Done. Done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My favorite.

[Liza Trager]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Kara Klenk]

That a lot of spice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why? This is our Wednesday episode. Our new Wednesday episode where we recap our old shows with new commentary updates and potentially retractions if necessary.

[Liza Trager]

I think this one is necessary also. Happy New Year's Day. If you're listening, on the day that this comes out, it's 2024.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's 2024.

[Liza Trager]

No, four.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Five for you.

[Liza Trager]

Five. Okay. I got time.

[Kara Klenk]

Spencer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Being done in the past. Can you believe it? Before you start your new year, which is gonna be incredible, by the way.

[Liza Trager]

What a year it's gonna be for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's gon to be. But before we go into the future, let's let us drag you into the past.

[Liza Trager]

Oh, because. Yes, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mine.

[Liza Trager]

Because today we are recapping episode 26, Little Babies. We were. And we named it 2666 because, of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Course, we did punk rock.

[Liza Trager]

Yep. And it came out originally on Thursday, July 21, 2016.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just wanna say July 21, in mid to late July in Los Angeles is a pretty warm time.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We were still in your apartment with no air conditioning.

[Liza Trager]

That's correct.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm not saying that to you accusatorially.

[Liza Trager]

No, I love it. It's my roots.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I. But that's all I can think of when I think of, like, these. When I look at these, and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. And then I'm like, I was having a great time and sweating my ass off.

[Liza Trager]

We were sweating. I was wearing tiny clothes. We were. We talk about in the beginning of this, like, the worry that more fireworks are going to happen.

[Kara Klenk]

Oh, yes.

[Liza Trager]

Because that's Los Angeles. The first, like, couple weeks before the 4th of July and a couple weeks after in Los Angeles, it's just constant Fireworks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fireworks in the tinderbox of a city that's just like dry wood based insanity. And we were so traumatized by the week before when we had those where.

[Liza Trager]

Someone said they almost got in a car accident because they heard the fireworks from the week before and drove off the road. I thought it was happening in there. Thought they were being shot at.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We must be careful when we listen to podcasts on the road.

[Liza Trager]

We have more power than we realize.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it feels great. Doesn't it though, here in 2025. Okay, are you ready? I'm ready. It's the rewind episode. Now we all get to be day one listeners.

[Liza Trager]

So let's listen to the intro of episode 26. Let's start now. Let's start right now.

[Kara Klenk]

Let's start right now. Fireworks, baby. You're a firework. The whole building collapses.

[Liza Trager]

Someone on some social media site said that they almost got in a car accident when they heard the firework because they thought it was a gunshot. Oh, no. I know, sorry. We were just as scared as you were.

[Kara Klenk]

We were more scared because as loud as it was on the podcast, it was fucking 15 times louder in real life.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah, they're fine.

[Kara Klenk]

Sorry. It was very, very scary. Surprising, and to me, funny.

[Liza Trager]

It's hilarious. It keeps happening, though. So it might happen again tonight.

[Kara Klenk]

And what is it, September? I mean, how much longer?

[Liza Trager]

I don't know. So prepare yourself and your dogs because I'm sure people. Some people's house, they're like thunder jackets off.

[Kara Klenk]

But I tried to put a thundershirt on George one time.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah.

[Kara Klenk]

And when I came home, it was eaten.

[Liza Trager]

Yes.

[Kara Klenk]

It was like ripped to shreds and parts were gone.

[Liza Trager]

I know. I know that. Well, I put a cat a collar on my cat once and came back and it was like, here's what I think of it.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah. Go fuck yourself.

[Liza Trager]

I mean, I wouldn't want to fucking collar. I mean, I guess I did when I was 14 and thought I was punk, I wore a collar.

[Kara Klenk]

I mean, that was the 90s, right?

[Liza Trager]

It was, wasn't it?

[Kara Klenk]

It was all about cat callers and back then. Yeah, punk, fake punk rock.

[Liza Trager]

Totally. I have. I still have mine. It still smells like. Like Victoria's Secret apple spray. Apple body spray.

[Kara Klenk]

No. Oh, no. You mean sorrow.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah. Yep.

[Kara Klenk]

It still smells like ecstasy.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah. Hey. How are you? How was your week? What's going on?

[Kara Klenk]

Hi, I've just been working.

[Liza Trager]

Oh, this is my favorite murder. Oh, guys, listen, I mean, I figure if you press play on this, you probably know that if you're one of.

[Kara Klenk]

Those rando people that just goes through itunes and picks different podcasts and hits play.

[Liza Trager]

No one's ever done that, right?

[Kara Klenk]

No, I seriously doubt it. But welcome if you're that one person and if you're the lone wolf.

[Liza Trager]

Hi. New to this. I'm Georgia. That's Karen.

[Kara Klenk]

I'm Karen. This is my voice.

[Liza Trager]

Karen was the one singing.

[Kara Klenk]

I do that because it's my passion.

[Liza Trager]

It's her passion, and she's good at it, and I'm not. I disagree that I'm bad at that. I'm bad. You disagree that you're good at it.

[Kara Klenk]

I disagree that you're bad at it.

[Liza Trager]

Thank you.

[Kara Klenk]

Because I've heard you do it jokingly, and it's not bad.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah, it's not. I guess the secret is not to try or care. Or care. Yeah, that's true. Here's a good segue into the presents we just got. I'm. I'm holding a cold beer to the stab wound that I gave myself.

[Kara Klenk]

Okay, can I just explain this very quickly? So we had. Georgia had a little pile of presents waiting for me when I got home to her apartment from work. Not this isn't my home. And it was like, I waited for you. So we can open these up. Yeah, we wanted to open them off air so it wouldn't take forever. And one of them I opened too, because Georgia was slightly afraid they could be a bomb or something dangerous.

[Liza Trager]

So it was like Karen's face.

[Kara Klenk]

So I was like, I'll go ahead and take the hit.

[Liza Trager]

I mean, you're off camera talent, you know? So I need this fucking.

[Kara Klenk]

I can have the eye patch?

[Liza Trager]

Yeah, all you need is your brain.

[Kara Klenk]

And I would love for my teeth to be blown out so I can get some awesome veneers. Anyhow.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah.

[Kara Klenk]

So I did the first two, and Georgia was like. I said. She picked up the third one, and I said, do you want me to open that? And she was like, I can do it. I'm not that insane, or whatever it was.

[Liza Trager]

You said, I fuck anxiety.

[Kara Klenk]

And then she went to open it and stabbed herself in the bare leg with a pair of scissors. And it. I have to tell you, as painful as I'm sure it is, also hilarious.

[Liza Trager]

It's one of those things, and this happens to me a lot where I'm glad it happened because it's worth it. Like, I run into stuff all the time and, like, do dumb shit. And I'm like, I'm so glad that that happened.

[Kara Klenk]

Yes.

[Liza Trager]

That's humor and life.

[Kara Klenk]

Instead of just. When you look down, I have a rando. That's the second time I said that word, and I've never really said it before at all. Interesting. What's going on? What? Teen boy, am I trying to impress. When you look down and you. There's just a huge bruise for no reason where you're just like, does this mean I have blood cancer?

[Liza Trager]

Yeah.

[Kara Klenk]

Why?

[Liza Trager]

The majority of my bruises I don't remember getting. And it's not because I'm constantly drunk. I'm not.

[Kara Klenk]

You're not.

[Liza Trager]

And I. And I mean, when I'm drunk, I'm smooth as shit, too. Like, I'm good. I'm much better in person when I'm drunk.

[Kara Klenk]

When you're drunk, what I notice is that you seem to just enjoy every single thing that goes on.

[Liza Trager]

Really?

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah. You just have a big smile on your face and you think everything's kind of funny and, like, enjoyable. It seems like.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah, I like. I think I, like, understand moments so much better and understand people and get. Get life better.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah.

[Liza Trager]

Which is, like, so unhealthy. But have a. I think maybe I'm not anxious. Maybe that's it. Maybe I'm amused and not anxious.

[Kara Klenk]

Deep down under, underneath, when you use beer to uncover your true personality. Well, we got some, oh, my God, amazing gifts. We just had, like, a baby July Christmas.

[Liza Trager]

Dude, what was that? That was someone slamming the door, but it sounded like a gun.

[Kara Klenk]

That. That sounded like a half firework to me. Yeah, it did restart. We got a beautiful card. That's the sparkliest thing. It's gorgeous with a really funny, cute joke on the front and really great printing inside.

[Liza Trager]

Beautiful printing.

[Kara Klenk]

The kind of printing I wish I could do, but I don't understand why that looks the way it does.

[Liza Trager]

I might, I don't know, do this. I might trace over the handwriting later. It's so satisfying. Have you ever tried that?

[Kara Klenk]

I've never done it. It's from. This card is from Emily, and she just said a bunch of lovely things. And it's basically a thank you card for our podcast, which is the cutest thing of all raised well, girl. And she likes a card.

[Liza Trager]

We'd like to thank her parents for this card.

[Kara Klenk]

Mr. And Mrs. Emily's parents.

[Liza Trager]

Right. Move on to the next one.

[Kara Klenk]

Then we got from Candace. She sent us this really fucking rad. She's gonna start doing murder zines. And the first one is the murder zine is called the Matilda Effect. And the first one is about Frances Glessner Lee.

[Liza Trager]

They're women in Science zines.

[Kara Klenk]

Oh, I thought they were murder.

[Liza Trager]

No, they're women in science.

[Kara Klenk]

Women in science scenes. Sorry. But the first one is about a woman who. Did she want to be a cop? Did that card say.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah, she wanted to be a scientist. She wanted to. She's basically. If you guys have seen the documentary in a nutshell, Studies where she really. This woman way back when, really wanted to be a doctor or nurse, and she wasn't allowed to because of her family. I think she was a rich. I think she was from a wealthy family. So instead, she started to make detailed miniature models of composite crime scenes. So she just made miniature crime scenes so that cops could study them without screwing up the crime scene. And she's just had this huge effect on crime scene procedure. And she's incredible. I love Candace. You can get these at Smut Punks. It's S M U T P U N X dot com. And she's gonna make. She makes other buttons and stuff, and she just makes shit. And I haven't seen a fucking zine in real life in.

[Kara Klenk]

I know.

[Liza Trager]

Do you ever make a zine?

[Kara Klenk]

No, I never did.

[Liza Trager]

I made a zine for. It's like a tribute to Ray Bradbury and Delight combined. Yeah.

[Kara Klenk]

Wow. Because those are the two things you like.

[Liza Trager]

That's what I liked when I was 16. So seeing a zine is, like, exciting.

[Kara Klenk]

It's very cool.

[Liza Trager]

And I think you should. I think we should all support zines.

[Kara Klenk]

You know, what I did was I just assumed that Candace made a zine for all the things I like instead of what she's interested in. Murder, Women in science. This was. Yeah, it was. It was specifically for me.

[Liza Trager]

Well, it is a true crime subject.

[Kara Klenk]

Yes. So and so. Fascinating. If you get. It's called the Nutshell. What's the documentary called?

[Liza Trager]

The Nutshell Studies. You gotta watch it. Yeah, she's. It's great, Candice, Fascinating. Thank you.

[Kara Klenk]

Thank you so much.

[Liza Trager]

Please keep remaining to be a badass.

[Kara Klenk]

Then we got this amazing puzzle from Holly. She said, Karen and Georgia, thanks so much for sharing your favorite murders. I made a puzzle about mine. Thought you might like it. Like it?

[Liza Trager]

Yeah.

[Kara Klenk]

We fucking lost our minds.

[Liza Trager]

I'm so excited. I kind of like. I kind of begged Karen for it.

[Kara Klenk]

It's a. It's a 3D puzzle of H.H. holmes, Murder Castle in Chicago, which is the best thing of all time. So I think everybody probably knows, but if you're. If you just started liking true crime.

[Liza Trager]

Right.

[Kara Klenk]

H.H. holmes. I think they're gonna make the Devil in the White City movie with Leo.

[Liza Trager]

DiCaprio, I think you prefer. Oh, and you can get this at. Where can you get her the puzzle?

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah.

[Liza Trager]

Wait, wait, wait. Okay, you can get hollycarden.com. so it's h, O, L, L, Y, C, A, R, D, E, N. And I think she's gonna start just making true crime puzzles.

[Kara Klenk]

It's amazing.

[Liza Trager]

I cannot wait to make this. I'll take photos.

[Kara Klenk]

It's very cool. So anyway, she started off with HH Holmes Murder Castle, which you can watch the movie. It's the best story ever. If you get creeped out by. By premeditated, planned psycho murder, this is the story for you. And I would do it, but they did it on last podcast on the left.

[Liza Trager]

I know I'm not.

[Kara Klenk]

They. It's been done a lot and it's very well known. And a movie's gonna come out. So we let. We let. We. It got taken care of in our minds.

[Liza Trager]

And finally.

[Kara Klenk]

Oh, my God. And then finally Bethany. Who? Bethany Jones. I'm assuming these people are okay with their names being said.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah, I think they want a shout out, which they will absolutely get.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah. So Bethany Jones is from the Base Element Makeup, Bath and Body. I would call it company. And she sent us her card. Says, I hope you like your names. Lipsticks. I loved creating them while listening to your podcasts. All of your podcasts, one after the other. I twitch. And fittingly, when I was done, my kitchen looked like a murder scene and I was smeared red to the elbows. I've got a bit rock and roll and made skull bath bombs in your honor too. See what an inspiration you are. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. It's so awesome. This box smelled. We could smell the bath bombs from outside.

[Liza Trager]

That's how I knew it wasn't a bomb, because I feel like they wouldn't go to the trouble of making it pleasant.

[Kara Klenk]

A soapy bomb.

[Liza Trager]

Well, it was a bomb. Oh, my God. I didn't think about that.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You were right.

[Kara Klenk]

See, you're right all along.

[Liza Trager]

I'm psychic.

[Kara Klenk]

But bombs can be good.

[Liza Trager]

Bombs can be good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So we.

[Kara Klenk]

We just got a shit ton of lip gloss and lip balm and lip scrub and eyeshadow.

[Liza Trager]

Like a lot of them are named, like, have quotes from the podcast. There's a fucking lip balm called Elvis won a Cookie. And once we. We got excited and exclaimed that when we saw it, Elvis lost his fucking mind because he thought he was getting one, so I had to give him one.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah, we kept I won't say it again.

[Liza Trager]

I know he's right here.

[Kara Klenk]

But, yeah, there's. I mean, our names are on. On lip balms.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is.

[Kara Klenk]

This is right up my alley.

[Liza Trager]

So she's gonna make them. She just wanted us to get the first ones, which is so cool. Yeah. So you can go to the. The base element at Etsy.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah.

[Liza Trager]

And buy Murderino and Non Murderino.

[Kara Klenk]

You guys, we can have our own makeup line.

[Liza Trager]

Fucking love this podcast from Bethany.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so cool.

[Kara Klenk]

It's very cool. Thank you for our gifts. Totally worth it to open up. To open you up to danger.

[Liza Trager]

I know.

[Kara Klenk]

And get that pot, that P.O. box. Hey, look, that's plenty of presents. That's plenty.

[Liza Trager]

I'm okay with the. I talked to my therapist about it. I really fucking lost my shit this last week. I talked to her about it. I got some pepper spray. The reality is it's not gonna fucking. I mean, what are the chances that's gonna happen? It's not.

[Kara Klenk]

Then I get scared when you say that. I'm sorry.

[Liza Trager]

All right. If you really, really want to find it and if you actually have something that you're making that's, like, legit, you can have the P.O. box.

[Kara Klenk]

Also, there's 80 million ways to contact us, so that you could probably say, hey, here's what I'm going to send you.

[Liza Trager]

Totally.

[Kara Klenk]

And here's a copy of my driver's license so that if I do harm you in any way.

[Liza Trager]

Right. And now we have evidence.

[Kara Klenk]

Contacted evidence. It's all on the Internet.

[Liza Trager]

So that was present. Present.

[Kara Klenk]

That was Present corner.

[Liza Trager]

What we call present corner. Okay, we're in. This is fun. So we start opening, like, gifts from listeners, which I know scared the shit out of me in the very beginning.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah, clearly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, you're taking true precautions and then hurting yourself in the. In the process.

[Liza Trager]

It sounds. Sounds like me. That sounds like me. Through and through. Taking precautions, hurting yourself on accident.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I mean, I can relate. Yeah, I think that's very relatable also. I think we were doing a lot of those kinds of. Okay. Strangers are sending us big boxes. We just got to go with God on this one and, like, play along. And I have to say this. We've been doing this for almost nine years. We've got. Been given a lot of amazing gifts, a lot of hilarious gifts, a lot of downright weird gifts. And I maybe shouldn't be saying this, but we've never gotten a scary gift.

[Liza Trager]

No. I've never felt threatened by a gift. Except that doll that had the happy face and the sad face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But the person who gave it to.

[Liza Trager]

Us, it was hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was hilarious. And God, I wish I could remember her name. But also knew that that's what they were doing.

[Liza Trager]

We needed it. Yes, it was great. And do you remember we sent it to a listener?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Someone won it.

[Liza Trager]

Who has that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you won the scary two faced doll, please send us an email of how your life has been going since it entered your home.

[Liza Trager]

We must know. And actually, so what's really cool about these gifts that we just opened is that at Holly's store, who gave us the HH Holmes Murder Castle puzzle is still [e-mail].

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, she has a whole empire over there.

[Liza Trager]

Amazing. Check that out. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also we talked about the Devil in the White City and we got so excited. Cause the movie was supposed to come out nine years ago. It's never come out. But all the same, people are still attached. What? And it is essentially, it's Leonardo DiCaprio. And I think it's supposed to maybe be Scorsese. I can't remember. But it's a famously cursed project.

[Liza Trager]

Now shut up, because I wanna watch it now, though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want it, but I want it. It's like that idea. I just saw a TikTok on it and there's a shot, the opening TikTok. The opening picture of the TikTok was the scene from the statue's shoulder overlooking that big pond or lake or whatever.

[Liza Trager]

They built it in the state fair or the. What's it called?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fairgrounds.

[Liza Trager]

World's Fair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, yes, exactly. For the world's Fair. But they built it like it was all white. It's an incredible looking thing that, like, I got to actually see this one picture that I was like, oh, my God. And then of course, the Ferris wheel.

[Liza Trager]

You know what's so crazy is that when this came out, this episode, TikTok didn't exist. Is that true? I'm making that up. I think it's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it's true. I bet you it was. I wonder if vine had even been shut down yet.

[Liza Trager]

Shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like vine walked so that TikTok could run.

[Liza Trager]

Remember when we were vine stars?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Were we?

[Liza Trager]

No. I don't know. We could make that up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pat Walsh was a Vine star.

[Liza Trager]

Was he?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, he was.

[Liza Trager]

Oh, that's so cute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He would get on there and sing little songs like, all the girls are going to a pizza.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah, vine legendary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So let's now, as we always do on this podcast, take a left turn because this episode is horrible. It's horrifying. It's child murder abuse. This is basically a listener warning. But it's not just about child murder. It involves brutal child abuse.

[Liza Trager]

It's funny how our stories start to sync up at this point where it's like we both had the same mindset and so this episode is especially horrible because of that. But I also find it really interesting. As I was reading through, it's clear that you and I are understanding how to talk about true crime in a way that we hadn't been taught.

[Georgia Hardstark]

May I correct. Just starting to understand.

[Liza Trager]

Okay, starting to understand. Yes. In a way that we didn't, we weren't taught and that we were figuring out from listeners notes and from the way it made us feel and not. And so there's a lot of comments here that it's almost like you can hear us feeling out our own empathy and what it means and what it, you know, doesn't excuse, but you know how to think about the stories. Yeah. And so it is a different time completely. And I think you and I are clearly, you know, feeling our way through that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I think about it all the time where and we've talked about it a lot, but it's like growing up on quote unquote, true crime and the way the media used to treat it was normal to us. That's just how it was.

[Liza Trager]

Salacious. You're trying to, you know, salacious sell these stories.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Killer centric, just kind of pop culture Y. And so us coming in from that stance in 2016, looking back now and looking back basically the whole time, it's just kind of like, why are we, why are we this disconnected? Why aren't we? And I mean, disconnected maybe isn't the.

[Kara Klenk]

Right word, but it is like, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can hear us slowly starting to realize nothing is black and white, nothing's straightforward. And at the same time like, oh, you know, the woman from your story later went on and got to tell her story and it was a complete, it like flipped that kind of very singular media narrative that we learned and kind of went with when it happened.

[Liza Trager]

Right. Like the story can be nuanced without taking away the perpetrators culpability and you can understand a story and people's motivations in ways without saying that they didn't deserve the punishment or that justice exists and so does empathy. But you know, how do we look at that? And I think we had to do that in a different way for this podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And in a way that it's embarrassing to go, oh, I never, I didn't really think of the victim's family, but no one really did in a forthright way that we could have copied. Like, everyone now gets to copy everybody else that caught up and is doing better and doing better because, of course, all of our anonymous Internet friends have logged on to say do better many, many times.

[Liza Trager]

We said, okay, okay, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We said, we'll do our best.

[Liza Trager]

All right, so let's get into Karen's story, A classic story, one that I can't think about without thinking about you as a child because she truly does look exactly like you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Liza Trager]

This is the story of Mary Belle. Hey, do you want to talk about our favorite murders?

[Kara Klenk]

We might as well. Skippers, come back to us. It's time.

[Liza Trager]

I think you're first.

[Kara Klenk]

Is it me?

[Liza Trager]

I think so.

[Kara Klenk]

The murder that I chose this week.

[Liza Trager]

Yes.

[Kara Klenk]

Karen in my favorite murder is one that's always. It's been one that, like, the first time I read it, I couldn't. I would have to turn my eyes away from the page because it is horrible and horrifying, but also, like, there's an underpinning of salaciousness to it that I thoroughly enjoy. It's about Mary Bell. The child child killer. Yeah, the childhood child killer.

[Liza Trager]

Yes.

[Kara Klenk]

Now, what I realized in looking through my research. My research searches today. I mean, from weeks ago.

[Liza Trager]

Right. For when all that research even.

[Kara Klenk]

Just piles and piles. Every night I go to the city library, like Morgan Freeman, and I let the guy play.

[Liza Trager]

It's the same one from Ghostbusters. First Ghostbusters movie. Right. The big, huge, cavernous, ghosty.

[Kara Klenk]

Yes. I go down in the basement where the very old dead ghost librarian is.

[Liza Trager]

Microfiche is involved.

[Kara Klenk]

You scroll microfiche for hours.

[Liza Trager]

Hours.

[Kara Klenk]

So in the pictures of Mary Bell, which we should put up on the Instagram page.

[Liza Trager]

I will.

[Kara Klenk]

That's what I looked like when I was little. Exactly. So I've always had a bit of a connection to Mary Belle in certain ways. But I also know. And we got called out. I think it was on. I can't remember the girl's name, but the girl that shot up the school.

[Liza Trager]

I dealt, like, Mondays. Oh, my God, Mary. Anyways, okay, sorry.

[Kara Klenk]

It. Lisa, that. That girl we kind of got. There's a couple people are, like, we were being too sympathetic to her or being, like, too nice when normally we're mean. If it's like a man and it's older, we're mean and, like, hang them high.

[Liza Trager]

I don't disagree with that.

[Kara Klenk]

I know. I mean, everyone has a lot to say. About every. But I single thing.

[Liza Trager]

But I see that point. I'm not gonna argue. I agree.

[Kara Klenk]

Well, I brought it up because I was thinking, is that how I'm gonna be about Mary Bell? But the truth is, I honestly believe that Mary Bell is a psychopath. I think she. Anytime she seems sympathetic, it's because she's trying to seem sympathetic.

[Liza Trager]

Right.

[Kara Klenk]

I think she is. Like, I think she's nightmare. Like, we need to talk about Kevin, the bad seed. She's the reality of all of that fiction, evil child.

[Liza Trager]

Right. Like, nothing can be done now.

[Kara Klenk]

I think there's a reason she's that way. I don't. She may have been born that way because they do talk about how she from an early age, like, didn't bond, but she had this fucking crazy mother. Either way, to me, I'm. I'm just want to say it at the start.

[Liza Trager]

I'm not defending her.

[Kara Klenk]

I'm not defending Mary Bell. Okay.

[Liza Trager]

But I also want to say another thing about it. Whenever there's like, a child molester or a murderer or someone, we talk about their past and we're like, yeah, that sucks. I don't think we were softer on her.

[Kara Klenk]

I don't either.

[Liza Trager]

I think we're always, like, investigating the past of the person who's killing people. That doesn't exonerate them from.

[Kara Klenk]

But I think sometimes, you know, when it's personal opinion, which is all. All of this podcast is, sometimes more empathy will come out. Even if you have it, you won't express it. Like, I don't have a ton of empathy for Richard Ramirez, even though he did get hit in the swing and he had the worst uncle in the world. Whatever.

[Liza Trager]

We're just saying it's understandable that this person didn't become a normal member of society.

[Kara Klenk]

Yes. And for me, that's what's interesting to me. When you can. When it's not just, oh, you were born with this defect where you do not have mirror neurons and you do not empathize with other human beings, that's one thing. But, like, if there's like, a little path, you could have been normal, totally. If you didn't experience this. This parent or this aunt or whatever is some awful pit that you fell in in your childhood. That, to me, that's like, that's really what's fascinating.

[Liza Trager]

That's the horrifying study. That's the study. The. The effect that they killed someone and murdered them and raped and did all these horrible things. That's the effect. You know, there's a Cause and effect.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah.

[Liza Trager]

Et cetera.

[Kara Klenk]

And the cause is fascinating. Right. And if I had A, in education, B, didn't have add, I would probably read up on it and become some type of a. Of a learned expert about it.

[Liza Trager]

Me too.

[Kara Klenk]

And instead, instead I have. I work in tv, so I am rewarded for not paying attention.

[Liza Trager]

And also. But we do have a. We do have a true crime podcast. So I think we're good. I think we're basically doing that.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah, yeah, we're doing our best. Anyhow.

[Liza Trager]

Sorry, Go on.

[Kara Klenk]

No, so I've. I've always found Mary Belle fascinating. So this happened in 1968?

[Liza Trager]

Oh, actually I thought it happened a lot longer ago. That's cool.

[Kara Klenk]

68.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah.

[Kara Klenk]

And it happened in New. In the inner city suburb of Newcastle in England.

[Liza Trager]

That's Stephen King's town, right?

[Kara Klenk]

No, no, in England.

[Liza Trager]

Never mind Newcastle. No, New Castle Rock. It's Castle Rock.

[Kara Klenk]

Castle Rock's the. Yeah, he's all about Maine.

[Liza Trager]

Can we just strike all of that from the record?

[Kara Klenk]

Yes, absolutely. We're gonna go in and edit this down so good.

[Liza Trager]

We're not.

[Kara Klenk]

No, we're not at all. And we never do. Okay. So she was born to a unwed, unstable 17 year old sex worker named Betty McCricket. And Betty used to leave her daughter with relatives and acquaintances. Just dumped her off anytime she could because she had to go. I guess she would go into Glasgow a lot and work as a sex worker.

[Liza Trager]

Even As a non 17 year old sex worker that I was. The thought of having a child at 17.

[Kara Klenk]

Nightmare.

[Liza Trager]

Nightmare.

[Kara Klenk]

It's just, what a great opportunity for a ton of bad decisions. Like this one where she once gave Mary to a woman she met on the street outside an abortion clinic.

[Liza Trager]

Shut up.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah, Betty was doing it. So apparently their household was filthy and sparsely furnished. And Betty's family members said that Betty tried to kill Mary more than once in her first few years of life.

[Liza Trager]

Oh my God.

[Kara Klenk]

And tried to make it look accidental. So they all became very suspicious when Mary, quote unquote, fell out a window. Head trauma, possibly. And also when she accidentally consumed sleeping pills. What the fuck? So they think she could have definitely gotten brain damage because she had sleeping pills, iron pills, and apparently Mary, sorry, Betty. Would feed the pills to Mary and tell them they were candy. There are some people who now say that they think Betty probably had Munchausen's by proxy, which is the fascinating disease where a parent gets addicted to the attention and sympathy that they get from a sick child. And so they make the child sick on Purpose. It's basically what happened in the movie Seven when the barfing girl finally brings him back to her house.

[Liza Trager]

That's a great scene.

[Kara Klenk]

No, not Seven fucking.

[Liza Trager]

We both the other number movie.

[Kara Klenk]

Sixth Sense.

[Liza Trager]

Our brains are syncing up because that was just.

[Kara Klenk]

Oh, you know what's so hilarious? Yeah, it's like our mistake. Brains are like. I did the same thing where when I was talking about the polyclass murder, I called it. I called it Cloverfield, which is a movie and the city name where her body was found is Cloverdale. And Adrian, my friend, the whole time.

[Liza Trager]

You called it that.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah, but I think I only said it once. Adrienne texted me and she's like, dude, it's Cloverdale. You went there for softball games. What are you doing? And I was just like. She's like, I'm the only one that noticed.

[Liza Trager]

But seriously, Cloverdale, monster movie.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah, grow up.

[Liza Trager]

Maybe you were just trying to protect the town so people like. So looky loos wouldn't show up there.

[Kara Klenk]

That's right.

[Liza Trager]

That's what you were doing.

[Kara Klenk]

Just stay away from Cloverfield. So bad news, obviously, in her upbringing. And so of course, at school, Mary was known as a chronic liar, disruptive pupil. She on occasion would voice her desire to hurt people. She did a lot of kicking and punching and lying. And so all the kids, they would make fun of her a lot because she was just basically a monster and a mess. And later on it. Sorry, I was just trying to figure out where. When a good. But basically later on, it came to be discovered that Mary's mother would use her and sell her in prostitution as well. From the age of four.

[Liza Trager]

Holy shit.

[Kara Klenk]

I guess this is another thing that does fascinate me. This is another thing that. That kind of trauma can affect you and does affect your personality completely. So she was subjected to really awful things at such a young age that they think that probably plays into the psychopathy and the behavior.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah, you're like, this isn't a safe world. Nothing is safe. I need to fucking defend myself and.

[Kara Klenk]

I want to start hurting others the way I'm being hurt. And it's a way that's normal. It's the way children. Yeah, it's the way children communicate that they're being hurt when they know they're not allowed to talk about it. Fascinating.

[Liza Trager]

Totally.

[Kara Klenk]

Okay, so on May 25, 1968, two boys playing in an abandoned house found the corpse of four year old Martin Brown lying in an upstairs room. Mary Bell and her friend Norma Bell was not related to her, they just had the same last name. Followed the boys inside the house, and when the police arrived, the two girls had to be ordered out. So they really liked looking at this dead boy.

[Liza Trager]

How old were they?

[Kara Klenk]

Mary was just about to turn 11.

[Liza Trager]

Okay.

[Kara Klenk]

And Norma Bell was 13. But Mary was the dominant of the two, like a little more mature and smart. There was no obvious cause of death, so it was assumed that Martin Brown had swallowed pills from a discarded bottle which was found nearby. So the next day, Norma Bell's father caught Mary choking Norma and he slapped her face and sent her home. He's choking. She was choking her so bad.

[Liza Trager]

Holy shit.

[Kara Klenk]

The day after this, little boy died. So four days later, Mary Bell appeared at the Brown residence asking to see Martin. And when she was reminded that Martin was dead.

[Liza Trager]

Wait, she showed up.

[Kara Klenk]

She showed up at the dead boy's house asking to see him. And when the adult that answered the door reminded her that Martin was dead, or it was the mother that answered the door. And when the mother said, he's dead, Mary said, oh, I know he's dead. I want to see him in his coffin.

[Liza Trager]

Oh my God. Can you. Oh, what would you do? I'd scream. I'd run screaming.

[Kara Klenk]

I mean, a little girl too.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah.

[Kara Klenk]

Who's. Yeah. Okay. So two months later, three year old Brian Howe goes missing. An immediate search is mounted and Mary Bell tells Brian's sister that he might be playing on a heap of concrete blocks that had been dumped out in a nearby vacant lot. And which is where he was discovered dead from manual strangulation. Legs and stomach and penis mutilated with a razor and a pair of scissors. The police discover at the scene the letters M and N were scratched into his stomach.

[Liza Trager]

Oh, fuck.

[Kara Klenk]

So as the investigation narrows Mary. So somebody that had been walking by said they saw kids around that pile of stones that day. And then when they took the 3 year old's body into the corner, he said, it looks like he's strangled, but it's such light force that I think we're looking at a child murderer.

[Liza Trager]

Oh my God.

[Kara Klenk]

So then the cops went around and started interviewing all the kids in the neighborhood. And Mary and Norma were both dinged right away because their stories kept changing. Mary acted super weird. They got freaked out by how creepy and weird she was. And Norma couldn't stop giggling.

[Liza Trager]

Holy.

[Kara Klenk]

So Mary, when her. When the investigation got narrowed onto Mary Bell, she suddenly remembered seeing an 8 year old boy with Brian on the day he died. And she said that the boy hit Brian for no reason and that she said that same boy had been playing with broken scissors. But she was naming a specific boy. She was basically trying to pin it on him. But he had been at the airport that afternoon.

[Liza Trager]

Oh fuck.

[Kara Klenk]

And so the thing that Mary didn't know is that the scissors were confidential evidence. No one knew about the scissors.

[Liza Trager]

Oh, Mary, that wasn't public. When you're a fucking 10 year old murderer. Is that you didn't. You don't understand.

[Kara Klenk]

You can't keep your shit in line, dude. Yeah, so baffling. She essentially implicates herself with the scissor comment. And she had described them exactly. So she's trying to pin it on the other boy and in doing so she's like, they were silver colored and some there was something wrong with them. Like one leg was either broken or bent. So she basically describes the exact scissors.

[Liza Trager]

To a T. I mean smart, smart, smart investigating by the cops that they like figured this shit out pretty quickly.

[Kara Klenk]

And can you imagine sitting in a room across from an 11 year old girl when you see this picture, Big blue eyes, little button nose, kind of vacant.

[Liza Trager]

Just think, baby Karen.

[Kara Klenk]

But just think, baby Karen, I was a precious lamb. But she's lying to you. So you're buying her at first and then she does the old inglorious basterds holding up a three.

[Liza Trager]

And you don't even want want it to be true. Like you're not even like, we're gonna get this guy. It's like, wait a second, you just said this wrong thing.

[Kara Klenk]

Creepy enough that the coroner says you're probably gonna want to look for a kid because a kid strangled a three year old.

[Liza Trager]

So you probably don't want it to be true. You probably have children of your own and this little girl is like, yeah.

[Kara Klenk]

The scissors, I mean the chill that would go down your back. So. So okay, I did the slidey thing again, which I always do. So Brian Howe was buried on August 7. And the investigative detective was named Detective Dobson. And he was there and he says Mary Bell was standing in front of the Howe's house when the coffin was brought out. I of course was watching her. And it was when I saw her there that I knew I did not dare risk another day. She stood there laughing, laughing and rubbing her hands. I thought, my God, I've got to bring her in or she'll do another one.

[Liza Trager]

Holy shit.

[Kara Klenk]

So they bring in Mary Bell.

[Liza Trager]

Why are you laughing, psychopath?

[Kara Klenk]

Because it's me.

[Liza Trager]

She's also rubbing her hands together right now.

[Kara Klenk]

No, because I'm picturing it and it's like, how. Why don't they make this movie? It's the creepiest thing of all time.

[Liza Trager]

Seriously.

[Kara Klenk]

This is like the ring, except for the girl has her hair back out of her face and she's like, she thinks she's getting away with it. She wanted to kill that little kid. She killed him and then she wanted to see his dead body get carried out of the house.

[Liza Trager]

It's just what's so crazy is the like, you know, when you, when adults kill, they like try really hard to hide it and try to outsmart people. That's like what you do. But this little person who I guess you can argue didn't understand that either death was permanent or what it meant.

[Kara Klenk]

Maybe, maybe, maybe. Or she enjoyed the feeling so much that she had done it. She, you know, because there was some killer that we talked about where they said, I want people to feel on the outside the way I feel on the inside. Was that the one of those Cheshire murders?

[Liza Trager]

Yeah. No.

[Kara Klenk]

Or was it the person you talked about last week?

[Liza Trager]

No.

[Kara Klenk]

Either way, facts.

[Liza Trager]

This is factual, fact based.

[Kara Klenk]

It's that thing of like when you finally feel right in the world is when, like that's how she felt. Right. She killed. She had the power to take his life away and put him in that box. She finally had power.

[Liza Trager]

But she also had to be a little bit like arrested in her. And yes, she couldn't be smart enough. She couldn't have been smarter than a 10 year old. She was just didn't understand right from wrong.

[Kara Klenk]

You don't think so?

[Liza Trager]

Go on.

[Kara Klenk]

Because this is where it gets crazy.

[Liza Trager]

Oh my God. This is where.

[Kara Klenk]

This is where. Well, this is where it shows that she was raised by two criminals because her mother ended up marrying, I think his name was Billy Bell and he was like a career criminal. And so they clearly talked about being arrested, going in and out, out of jail and all this stuff. Because when she's arrested, first of all, when they say you're going to be charged with murder, she said, that's all right by me.

[Liza Trager]

Wow.

[Kara Klenk]

And she, she sorry. When she was in jail, there was a stray cat in jail. And.

[Liza Trager]

Elvis, cover your ears.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah, Elvis, you're not gonna like this. She grabbed the cat. No, Tightly by the neck. And the guard told her not to hurt the cat. And Marilyn, Mary allegedly replied, oh, she doesn't feel that in any way. I like hurting little things that can't fight back. In another incident, a policewoman said that Mary said she'd like to be a nurse, quote, because Then I can stick needles into people. I like hurting people.

[Liza Trager]

Oh, my God.

[Kara Klenk]

So there was kind of a naive quality about it then also the jailers, once she was in there, she calmed down a little bit after a while. And a lot of the jailers liked her, the guards, you know, because they said she was very smart. She's. She was very sharp. But she was a chronic bedwetter. Oh, yeah. And she's got one of the pieces, probably two if we count those. Being overdosed on drugs by your mother.

[Liza Trager]

Dropped out of a.

[Kara Klenk]

And dropped out of a window.

[Liza Trager]

Sure.

[Kara Klenk]

Probably got two at least.

[Liza Trager]

What's the other one? Fires.

[Kara Klenk]

Fire. Yeah.

[Liza Trager]

Okay.

[Kara Klenk]

No report of fire on her, but she was terrified of going to sleep because she was afraid she was gonna wet the bed. And she said to one of the guards, I usually do. And at home, her mother would humiliate her anytime she wet the bed. So she would rub her daughter's face in the pea when she found it, and she would hang the mattress outside so the neighborhood would see it. So when they went to trial, Norma was acquitted of all charges, and Mary was convicted of two counts of manslaughter. So I think even they say that Norma was there. Norma had like eight brothers and sisters or some huge family, and their whole family was there supporting her. And she did a lot of crying on the stand and saying, mary did it, Mary did it. And Mary did the same thing of saying, Norman did it. But all she had was her lunatic mother who was wearing a blonde wig and would freak out so much and cry and do all these things that her wig would fall off. And then she would get up and run out of the courtroom and then come back. And so because of that, Munchausen's by proxy, like, this was her drama. She was basically, you know, say, in the very slight chance that Mary wasn't guilty, she was condemning her anyway because no one had sympathy for that family. Whereas everyone was like, oh, this little girl's just been set up by Mary Bell.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah.

[Kara Klenk]

And then in the tabloids, Mary Bellby just became just the face of evil. For years and years, they didn't have anywhere to put her because they had never had to deal with sending an 11 year old girl to jail. So there was lots of places for juvie for little boys, but none for little girls. So they had to keep her. They kept her in a separate quarters in a boys detention center for a long time until she was in her teens. When she was in her teens, she escaped jail for a little while with two other Boys. But then they were only gone for two weeks and then they went back. She spent up until her, like, I can't find it now. I think it was like in her mid-20s in jail. And then when she got out, all of England was like, freaking out. They were super pissed. She made money off a book that someone wrote about her again. They were like, we need to pass laws. Yeah, whatever.

[Liza Trager]

She got out and then what?

[Kara Klenk]

She ended up becoming a grandmother. Like a mother and a grandmother. She got pregnant. I don't think she got married. And then she was.

[Liza Trager]

Did she change her name?

[Kara Klenk]

There was. They passed a thing where they kept her. Yeah, she's. She now lives under a pseudonym.

[Liza Trager]

Right.

[Kara Klenk]

And they, like the British people wanted that repeal. They wanted to make her live as herself, but they. Whatever you. They continued the ruling that she could live under a pseudonym for the rest of her life.

[Liza Trager]

Okay. Wow, we are back. Karen, do you have any updates? I wanted to know, like, where is she now? So bad. It's good that we don't. Yes. However, there's this part of me that wants to know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. I mean, like, that's like the other media training that we have, which is kind of like this. Now we get the 15 year update, the 30 year update, like, whatever. But no, the adult Mary Belle and her daughter remain anonymous. They're protected under an order from the UK's High Court. So I think that's all good. I mean, I was talking to Allison Agassi, our writer, about this story and how this child was raised with a mother who was actively trying to kill her all the time and. And horribly abusing her. And then it's like, it's just mind blowing to be like, if that's your perspective and that's how you get treated, we can't know. It's hard to imagine because we take for granted that we were picked up and held and cared for and looked in the eyes as children.

[Liza Trager]

And I feel like psychology in the past, like, 10 years, at least for myself, is learning that the tools you learned as a child that you had to learn that helped you get through that period were actually helpful. And so in a way, this empathy that Mary Bell was able to turn off completely and have no care about anyone else and not understand other people's feelings was actually beneficial to her because she was being horribly abused. It just turned into hurting other people as well, you know?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Which is, I think, kind of a common thread in all these stories. You can't consistently hurt a child and think that that child should Just be resilient. And hey, there's. They'll get over it. It doesn't work that way.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah, the tools that you learn to protect yourself can turn on you and aren't always positive.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Also, they're tools that you're just getting. And then as you grow up, you. Later when you realize that of like, oh, I don't need this anymore. It can be shameful or embarrassing, but it's like. But that's just the human experience. It's like, you just do it until you know better. That's what everyone says.

[Liza Trager]

And you think it's who you are. It's your personality. I'm talking about myself at this point about, like, dissociating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm only ever talking about myself all the time.

[Liza Trager]

There's. And that's yours. And talking about yourself all the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It really helps.

[Liza Trager]

You don't realize isn't your personality. It's just like your learned behavior. Because it fucking helps.

[Kara Klenk]

It helps.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, also, I had that realization about five years ago where it's like, oh, that's right. Standup comedy. And wanting to be a comedian was a coping mechanism.

[Liza Trager]

Right? What? What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I could have just been like, a marine biologist. Like, I wanted to.

[Liza Trager]

You don't think marine biology is a fucking coping mechanism too? I think it is.

[Kara Klenk]

Oh, just staring at whales all day.

[Liza Trager]

I love a whale. Oh, well, I hope your childhood was great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I guess.

[Liza Trager]

I guess.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I guess you can focus on kelp all the time.

[Liza Trager]

You're not terrified of the ocean. Well, congratulations.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Must be nice. Must be nice. Okay.

[Liza Trager]

Ooh, this guy. This story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, we have to now go into. I think we talk about it at the time. I think we have talked about it multiple times since. I will say it now. Potentially one of the most nightmarish, horrible human story ever. Just absolutely terrible. Georgia's about to cover the death of Lisa Steinberg.

[Kara Klenk]

What's your favorite murder of the week?

[Liza Trager]

Hi. Mine is also a child murder.

[Kara Klenk]

Is it really?

[Liza Trager]

Yeah, man. This is a long episode for parents. It is very weird.

[Kara Klenk]

That's crazy.

[Liza Trager]

It's very weird. But this is. This is by. This is a parent, a parental murder. And this one stuck with me for a. Has stuck with me. I've read about it for a long time. Because there's a photograph of the little girl who gets killed.

[Kara Klenk]

Oh, you're not. Oh, you're saying the child is murdered.

[Liza Trager]

Child murder.

[Kara Klenk]

Got it.

[Liza Trager]

Got it. Child murder. Yes.

[Kara Klenk]

Got it.

[Liza Trager]

So there's a photo of the little girl the day before her death. That really fucking Stuck with me. I hope that. Do you hear that?

[Kara Klenk]

Yes, it sounds like thunder.

[Liza Trager]

My fucking downstairs neighbor plays some video game.

[Kara Klenk]

World of War, Call of Duty.

[Liza Trager]

Yes, Call of Duty. And it's just so. If you hear that. I'm sorry. So Lisa Steinberg, this poor little angel baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the one.

[Kara Klenk]

That's not the one.

[Liza Trager]

Oh my God. It's heartbreaking.

[Kara Klenk]

This is the worst story. Okay, sorry, sorry.

[Liza Trager]

It's okay. No, you're right. I'm breathing. Not because I'm okay. So it's in 1981, 45 year old Hedda Nussbaum and 46 year old Joel Steinberg, who was a defense attorney who sometimes handled adoption cases. Joel was. They took custody of an infant girl named, that they named Lisa and they illegally adopted her. The child's birth mother had paid Steinberg, the attorney a $500 legal fee to place the child with a Roman Catholic family, but they just kept her instead. They were Jewish. I don't know, don't think that matters. But they. Whatever. Anyways, so this Hedda and Joel were a well educated, they were upper class New York couple. They lived in Greenwich Village in New York City. At school, Lisa's teachers said she was bright and friendly, but they worried about her arriving at school with bruises and chunks of hair missing from her head. And she would tell them that her little brother, who was also a younger adopted child, had hit her. And none of them had ever made reports of abuse, which changed a lot of stuff in the system. So there's a photo from Halloween the day before the big incident happens that one of the teachers took of Lisa. And it's just a photo of her at her desk. It's Halloween, all the other children are dressed up and she's wearing her normal clothes and she's just kind of staring off and this, with this sad face, like an empty sad face. And the next day on November 1, 1987, Hedda the mother calls the police to report that her daughter had choked on food. That's what she said. And when the police arrived, they found 6 year old Lisa Steinberg unconscious and she had multiple bruises on her body. And the mother had a claim that she had fallen a lot lately on her roller skates. So according to initial reports, on November 1st at around 7pm, Joel Steinberg had somehow rendered Lisa unconscious with severe blows to the head. And what Hedda later said was as the reasoning was that Lisa wanted to go, quote, Lisa wanted to go to dinner with her father, but he did not want to take her. And then he inflicted the head injury because she wouldn't stop bugging him about wanting to go to dinner before he left the. But before he left the apartment, Lisa was unconscious, so he left. And the mother, Hedda was alone with the kid who was dying for roughly 10 hours, failing to notify police or medical personnel. Joel left and came back many times. They were freebase and cocaine, sometimes together because they were also like weird drug addicts.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah.

[Liza Trager]

And she says she didn't. Hedda said she didn't call authorities because she believed that Joel had supernatural healing powers and she was waiting for him to come home and fix her. Her. Which we'll get into in a bit.

[Kara Klenk]

Don't do drugs. If you're gonna do drugs, don't adopt children. Stupid motherfuckers.

[Liza Trager]

Don't. So around 6am the next morning, Lisa stopped breathing. And Shortly after, Steinberg called 911 at Nussbaum's urging. Lisa died four days later in the hospital. And it was determined the cause of death was a head injury apparently inflicted by what they say was a rubber headed hammer. Summer.

[Kara Klenk]

Holy shit.

[Liza Trager]

I know. It's heartbreaking. The St. Vincent doctors. This is according to Joyce Johnson, who wrote a book called what Lisa Knew. The doctor showed a quote map of pain on her body. I know this poor little thing, man. I wish, I wish I. They also. Let's see. The house was filthy and contained large quantities of cocaine and other drugs. And the couple was arrested on child abuse charges. New York law, state stated at the time that if one parent beats a child and the other stays silent about it, each is equally guilty. But that's good. I know, but Hedda was. I mean, is it because. Is that giving any understanding to the. To the other parent who didn't do it, who was probably abused as well and victimized? We don't. But here's the. Here's the. So Hedda was later found to have been abused by Joel throughout their relationship. She suffered from nine broken ribs, a broken jaw and a broken nose. And if you look at photos of her at this trial and right after this happened. This person is fucking disfigured.

[Kara Klenk]

Yes.

[Liza Trager]

Like this person's. She had to get cartilage from her, quote, good ear taken out to reconstruct her nose which had collapsed because he'd.

[Kara Klenk]

Punched her so many times.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah. So she wasn't prosecuted due to the belief that years of abuse had rendered her incompetent at the time of the murder. And instead.

[Kara Klenk]

That makes sense.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah. And yeah, let's. We'll talk about fucking Culpability, man. Instead, she was sent to a psychiatric hospital in exchange for her testimony against Joel. Hedda was not prosecuted, and Joel was charged with first degree manslaughter. So the trial. Okay, go ahead.

[Kara Klenk]

Why not? Why not murder?

[Liza Trager]

I don't know.

[Kara Klenk]

I don't either. Okay.

[Liza Trager]

Oh, you know why? Because later it was said that if Hedda had called the ambulance at that moment, Lisa would have survived for sure. So.

[Kara Klenk]

So it wasn't his intent to murder her when he did kill her.

[Liza Trager]

Right.

[Kara Klenk]

Jesus Christ.

[Liza Trager]

Breathing, breathing, breathing, breathing. What's around us right now. Seafoam green wall.

[Kara Klenk]

We're here in 2016 and not in 80s New York in this horrible apartment.

[Liza Trager]

What do you feel under your hand?

[Kara Klenk]

I just remembered as you were talking, describing her appearance. There was an amazing article in Oprah's magazine that she had in. Nussbaum wrote.

[Liza Trager]

Well, she wrote a book.

[Kara Klenk]

Did she?

[Liza Trager]

Yeah.

[Kara Klenk]

I bet that was just publicity then. And it was just an excerpt from the book. It was unbelievable.

[Liza Trager]

She wrote a book about. She does, like, talks and. About being abusive relationships. And she wrote a book about. About it that I didn't really want to include because I don't want to make this about.

[Kara Klenk]

Okay.

[Liza Trager]

You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we, you know, I'm not. She wrote a book.

[Kara Klenk]

It's just the side by side of her when she was young, when she first met him, and when she was arrested is. She looks like an old witch, and she was this gorgeous young New York woman.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah.

[Kara Klenk]

When I just have such a. I.

[Liza Trager]

Mean, this is the problem is I've never been. It's not a problem. This is great. I've never been in an abusive relationship before, so I don't know that the head games and the. The in the. The way you have to rationalize. Rationalizing in your head, because this person you care about, you know, is doing these things and you want to believe that they have no control over. That they're not doing it on purpose, that they would never hurt you. Otherwise your whole fucking world is just shattered. And.

[Kara Klenk]

That's. Right.

[Liza Trager]

Insane. And on top of that, they're using strong. They're freebasing at this point.

[Kara Klenk]

I mean, freebase and cocaine is like you're. You're doing cracks. You're crackhead.

[Liza Trager]

You're a psychopath.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah.

[Liza Trager]

Okay. And they were. There was also some weird, like, cult stuff, and they had been convincing her that she, like, mind games with her, that she had been sleeping around and had been hypnotized. And there was just some very fucked up Mind games with the schedule. So. All right. So the trial. So this is actually the first trial which made New York. Which turned New York into the 44th state to allow television cameras in the courtroom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, hell.

[Liza Trager]

This was like, fucking watch. Like, people tuned in constantly for this. So during the trial, they said that Lisa's injuries were severe, but she would have almost certainly survived if given prompt medical treatment. So this is probably why he had manslaughter. So the jury wanted to convict Steinberg on the more serious charge of second degree murder, but they couldn't because. So they could only convict him of the. Of the second. Of the second most serious charge, which is first degree manslaughter. So the judge then sentenced him to the maximum penalty then available. Guess. Guess what. Guess how long that is, Karen.

[Kara Klenk]

God, is it seven years?

[Liza Trager]

8⅓ to 25 years in prison.

[Kara Klenk]

And he's a lawyer, right?

[Liza Trager]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So on two occasions. So Steinberg served his time. On two occasions, he was denied discretionary parole because he never expressed any remorse for the killing. He never said he was. He hit her. He was always an argument that something must happen with Hedda. Yeah. But on June 30, 2004, he was paroled under the state's, quote, good time law. I mean, he did good time. He was a good inmate. Congratulations. You've killed a kid.

[Kara Klenk]

He wasn't a good father. Yeah, he was a rotten father and husband.

[Liza Trager]

That's insane. All right.

[Kara Klenk]

Okay.

[Liza Trager]

It mandates the release of inmates who exhibit good behavior while incarcerated after having served as little as two thirds of the maximum possible sentence. After his release, he moved to Harlem, and he works in the construction industry. He continues to maintain his innocence, but there was this really great New York magazine article where this journalist. I don't have his name. Was like, clearly, like, this guy's full of shit. He was interviewing his attorney who's like, just a fucking dick lick, motherfucker. Excuse me.

[Kara Klenk]

Why now?

[Liza Trager]

What? Why not?

[Kara Klenk]

We say fuck every five seconds.

[Liza Trager]

Excuse myself. Excuse myself. Me.

[Kara Klenk]

Excuse me for that.

[Liza Trager]

Something about dick lick was a little more you.

[Kara Klenk]

That was. That was one step too far.

[Liza Trager]

Weirdly, that's something I say on the regular. Dick lick. Learn it in the magazine article. He, like, needled Joel, and finally Steinberg finally admitted that he, quote, pushed his daughter a little, quote, with the soft pad, you know, on your palm. He finally kind of gave in because the whole article they were trying to. The lawyer was trying to make it seem like Joel was the victim of this, like, media slander to make Heather look innocent and him look guilty. And it's like, just, what a piece of shit. Yeah. In 2003, Steinberg was ordered to pay Lisa's biological mother, the one who gave her up for adoption, 15 million for the, quote, heinous, outrageous crime of murdering Lisa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Liza Trager]

I'm a little bit like, do you deserve that money?

[Kara Klenk]

No. But still, I like the idea he has to pay.

[Liza Trager]

And then. But then a civil suit. Hedda was wanted to collect 3.6 million from Joel for eight years of beatings she said she endured and the permanent disfigurement she has suffered, which at that point, I'm a little like, this child died. You need to walk the away.

[Kara Klenk]

Yeah.

[Liza Trager]

Or am I being insensitive to.

[Kara Klenk]

I mean, there's. There's a lot. There's a lot of ways that we can offend people in this. But here's. This is my stance, because I remember wanting money is like such the wanting money is.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah.

[Kara Klenk]

Because you. I understand that she was in an abusive relationship. I also understand that she was a drug addict, which is. A lot of people don't have empathy for that. I do. And I understand that you go into a place that is inexplicable and indefensible a lot of the time.

[Liza Trager]

Yes.

[Kara Klenk]

You don't ask for money for doing that. You make reparations. You fix your life. You make your amends. You clear away the wreckage of your past. You don't ask to be paid for the thing you fucked up.

[Liza Trager]

And the thing about it is, like, you were an adult in this relationship. As mind fucked as you were, as victimized as you were, you stayed in it. You chose to stay in it until this awful thing happened. If that hadn't happened, you would have stayed in it, and the children would have still been abused. It just so happens that Lisa died, that you got out of it.

[Kara Klenk]

Right.

[Liza Trager]

And there's so many examples, I'm sure, listeners two who have figured out a way to get out of abusive relationships and how fucking difficult it is and awful it is, but you fucking do it. And that's your choice as an adult.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we're back.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah. It's hard to listen to us talk about and debate, even with ourselves and our own conscience, like, who deserves what and why, as you know, when it comes to justice and reparations and, you know, it's just. It's such a different mindset back in 2016 than it is today.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, it's just ignorance. I mean, like, it's not. I don't think you And I have ever pretended to be anything we're not. And so when we were having those kinds of conversations, it's literally just. And I think why people like this podcast, we're just regular people that are like, sharing our kind of like, oh, I guess this is what I think about this. And I think that's why listeners like it. Cause then they literally can be like, here's what I think about it and here's why your answer either delights me or disgusts me. And then it's like, oh, right, what are we doing?

[Liza Trager]

We're doing critical thinking together.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I mean, we got. I remember us getting follow up stuff about Hedda Nussbaum and really good information that was like. It really did feel like the beginning of bigger picture. More to consider. It's not just you and I sitting in your apartment chatting.

[Liza Trager]

Totally. And you know what's interesting to me about this is I am in the middle of J.C. dugard's memoir, a Stolen Life, and it is harrowing and difficult and mirrors this story in a lot of ways and is really, Even now in 2025, opening my eyes to the abuse that victims endure. And JC just goes through this thing that is mind blowing. And I will never understand. And you can never understand unless you've been through it. And just the space you need to leave open for people who have been in abusive relationships and that just the understanding that you will never understand.

[Kara Klenk]

Yes.

[Liza Trager]

So I'm trying to wrap my brain around that, and looking at the story from that angle as well is really eye opening to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really quick, did I ever tell you about Adrian's mother in Law and J.C. dugard?

[Liza Trager]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. I'll try to make this as fast as possible. Adrian, my sister's friend, Adrian, who she's also my friend. That's now the longer title that she has. Her mother in law, Pushpa, is the. This brilliant woman who.

[Liza Trager]

She's the teacher.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She is. No, that's my sister.

[Liza Trager]

No, no. Your English teacher wasn't Adrian's mom. The English teacher.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Adrian's mom, Judy.

[Liza Trager]

Oh, who are you talking about?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Her mother in law.

[Liza Trager]

Oh, got it. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pushpa. And Pushpa was a parole officer. Oh, in that area.

[Liza Trager]

And that's a big deal in the story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a big deal because Pushpa got sent to that house and she went back and said, something's not right. They wouldn't let me in the front door. She actually tried to look over their shoulder. He was like, at the front door, wouldn't let her look Inside. Then she went around, even though he was like, no, no, it's all fine. So then she went around and peeked over the fence, saw the tarps, went back to work and was like, you gotta go in there. Something's wrong there. Blah, blah, blah. And they were like, we don't have any. Cause they basically didn't listen to her.

[Liza Trager]

And, you know, you gotta be a nosy neighbor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, and also, like, that kind of thing where it's like. Especially that specific situation where she was held there for so long. It's so awful. And, like, the idea of at any point something could have changed. And it was just like, somebody on the other end being like, it's not that big of a deal is so frustrating.

[Liza Trager]

That's a huge part of the story is like, in her mind, it's like no one cared. No one was looking. And it was just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pushbull was.

[Liza Trager]

It was just a peek over the fence away. Because they didn't realize that the backyard went on further than it did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. There's like, a false.

[Liza Trager]

Just where she was being kept. Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Liza Trager]

Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. I mean, be the nosy neighbor, you guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the. Pushpa's. The one where when Nora was, like, 5 years old, Pushpa asked her what she wanted to be for what she wanted to be when she grew up. And Pushpa's Sri Lankan, and Nora was like, I wanna be a cheerleader. And Pushpa goes, don't be a cheerleader. Be a doctor. So we say that to Nora all the time.

[Liza Trager]

And she will be. You fucking know it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it worked. I think it worked on her. I think, like, just being able to accept that you have blind spots, not that you're bad for them, not that it means anything except for that you're a human being. But just, like, the humility of going, yeah, I must, and I know I do. And the way I see the world is just that. The way I see the world is.

[Liza Trager]

From my own experiences.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's a very singular experience. It's a very. And also, you know, having the Internet suddenly, like, the world was like, there's more than your experience. And here it is right here and now. You should have known this already. And, like, it really was this very insane dividing line of all of a sudden, there were people snapping their fingers, being like, you should be smarter than this. And it's like, I know I should be smarter than this. Like, it's crazy. So, yeah, those kinds of, like, I could never imagine. Therefore, I don't even know.

[Liza Trager]

You don't know what you don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't know what you don't know.

[Liza Trager]

Okay, I have a couple case updates. The baby from the story. Baby Mitchell, Lisa's adopted younger brother, was returned to his birth mom. He was given a new name, and he eventually graduated with honors from his high school, earned a college degree, got Marri married, and pursued a career in banking.

[Kara Klenk]

So beautiful.

[Liza Trager]

Thank God for that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank God.

[Liza Trager]

Around the time Joel was being released from prison, which fucking Jesus Christ, Hedda Nussbaum changed her name and moved out of New York so he wouldn't be able to find her. Her exact whereabouts are unknown. And, you know, you heard us talking about abusive relationships. So if you or anyone you know is struggling to leave an abusive partner, we wanted to give you a few resources.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. The National Domestic Violence Hotline is free, confidential, available 24 hours a day, and it's 1-800-799-SAFE 7233. So that's 1-800-799/SAFE and their website is.

[Liza Trager]

Thehotline.Org where you can find resources and also get involved in supporting survivors either through volunteering or. Hey, donation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, we do that.

[Liza Trager]

Shall we?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's please.

[Liza Trager]

10 grand to thehotline.org, the National Domestic Violence Hotline. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And if you have anything to give this new Year, that would be amazing. I think that's an incredibly helpful charity to support.

[Liza Trager]

Definitely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that was a heavy episode, but.

[Liza Trager]

Sure was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At least we ended it on a donation.

[Liza Trager]

We ended it on donation and a happy New Year.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. Hey, Happy New Year, everybody.

[Liza Trager]

Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?