Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 29: Twenty-Nein - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Summary6 min read

Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 29: Twenty-Nein

Release Date: January 22, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 29 of "Rewind with Karen & Georgia," hosts Karen Kilgarith and Georgia Hardstark delve deep into one of their most compelling true crime stories—the case of John List. This episode not only revisits the harrowing details of List's family murders and subsequent disappearance but also touches upon current critical issues in the true crime community, including the investigation into missing indigenous women in Canada. Additionally, Karen and Georgia share personal anecdotes, discuss their podcast's growth, and highlight philanthropic efforts supporting survivors of violence.

1. Recap of John List Case

Karen and Georgia provide an intricate retelling of John List's tragic story, emphasizing his calculated approach to murdering his family and evading capture for nearly two decades.

Background: John List was a respected family man and Lutheran church leader in Westfield, New Jersey. Despite his outward appearance, he struggled with severe personal issues.
The Murders (Timestamp: [22:05] – [30:17]): On November 9, 1971, List methodically killed his wife, Helen, and his three children—Patricia (16), Frederick (13), and John Jr. (15). In a chilling display of detachment, he shot them all in the back of the head, ensuring they were unaware of their impending fate.

Georgia Hardstark [26:01]: "Wow."

Karen Kilgarith [26:01]: "Then he went upstairs to the third floor of their mansion where his mother had her own suite."
Aftermath and Disappearance: List meticulously planned his escape, leaving no immediate clues. His antisocial nature and reclusive lifestyle delayed the discovery of the murders by a full month, allowing him ample time to vanish without a trace.

Georgia Hardstark [33:09]: "You know what I mean?"

Karen Kilgarith [33:17]: "They were not having a party. So because of all this careful planning and because they were basically antisocial and reclusive, it took a full month for anybody to actually discover these bodies."
Manhunt and Capture (Timestamp: [40:26] – [41:47]): The breakthrough came through "America's Most Wanted," featuring an age-progressed clay bust by forensic artist Frank Bender. The accurate likeness led to List's identification and arrest in Virginia after 18 years on the run.

Karen Kilgarith [40:29]: "No, you remember because I'm about to hold up a picture to you. I'm so excited."

Georgia Hardstark [41:36]: "We fuck."
Trial and Conviction: During the trial, List presented a defense rooted in his religious beliefs and personal failings, claiming he was saving his family from sin and shame. Despite his arguments, he was convicted of five counts of murder and sentenced to life imprisonment.

Karen Kilgarith [43:54]: "So he put these big old glasses. Remember that, dude?"

Insights and Analysis:

Karen discusses the psychological profile of family annihilators, highlighting List's obsessive-compulsive narcissism and how his unresolved childhood trauma contributed to his heinous actions. Georgia reflects on the societal pressures and the American Dream's dark side, questioning how external expectations can exacerbate personal breakdowns.

2. Missing Indigenous Women in Canada

Shifting focus to contemporary issues, Karen and Georgia address the ongoing crisis of missing and murdered indigenous women in Canada, referencing notorious cases like Robert Pickton's.

Current Developments (Timestamp: [08:27] – [12:50]): They discuss a recent CBC News article announcing a governmental investigation into the disappearance of hundreds of indigenous women. The hosts express hope that this acknowledgment signifies a new era in addressing systemic violence and societal neglect.

Karen Kilgarith [11:57]: "The government is trying to do something about it. They're trying to find the women. They're trying to investigate the murders. They're trying to actually put a focus and say these women are important, just as important as anybody else."

Georgia Hardstark [11:26]: "That's incredible."
Philanthropic Efforts: The duo emphasizes their commitment to supporting these causes, mentioning plans to donate podcast proceeds to relevant foundations and highlighting activists like Mariska Hargitay.

Georgia Hardstark [12:12]: "Thank you. I want to give her all my money and, like, do it. Help her."

Karen Kilgarith [21:27]: "Mariska Hargitay is like a legend now for having played Olivia Benson on SVU for years and years and then basically turning all of that work into this activism."

3. Podcast Growth and Live Shows

Karen and Georgia reflect on the growth of their podcast, "My Favorite Murder," sharing heartfelt moments about their increasing popularity and the emotional impact of their live shows.

Live Shows Success (Timestamp: [13:00] – [17:15]): They recount the overwhelming positive response from audiences in Texas, expressing both surprise and gratitude for the support they've received.

Georgia Hardstark [13:10]: "I was so surprised by that."

Karen Kilgarith [13:15]: "It's pretty nice that we're getting popular because we talk about death."
Personal Anecdotes: The hosts share humorous and touching stories from their tours, highlighting the unique bond they share with their listeners and each other.

Georgia Hardstark [17:00]: "I was sick. And so I was an hour late."

4. Georgia’s Story: The Death of Warina Wright

In a departure from the John List case, Georgia presents a recent and unsettling story about Warina Wright, detailing her tragic death in Australia.

Case Details (Timestamp: [55:25] – [75:54]): Georgia narrates the evening leading up to Wright's death, incorporating audio snippets to recreate the harrowing events. She explores the complexities of the case, including the involvement of Gable Totsi, alleged alcohol abuse, and the contentious circumstances surrounding her fall from a balcony.

Georgia Hardstark [56:12]: "She finds Gable, Toasties, Tinder. He's this like hot ladies, man. They meet up outside of a bar on the 6th."

Karen Kilgarith [68:38]: "I’m a psycho drunk and do not test me."
Legal Proceedings and Controversy: The episode delves into Totsi's trial, his acquittal, and the ongoing debates among web sleuths regarding the case's unresolved mysteries.

Georgia Hardstark [76:06]: "He was acquitted. And since then, Totsi has been going by a different name."
Psychological Insights: Karen and Georgia discuss the psychological aspects of the case, questioning the motives and mental state of the involved parties.

Karen Kilgarith [75:34]: "The idea of recording an evening is super insane to me."

5. Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions

As the episode wraps up, Karen and Georgia reflect on the intense nature of true crime storytelling and the importance of handling such narratives with empathy and responsibility. They also tease future episodes and encourage listeners to stay engaged with their ongoing mission to shed light on underrepresented true crime cases.

Emotional Impact: The hosts acknowledge the emotional toll that these stories take on both the storytellers and the audience, emphasizing the need for continued advocacy and support.

Georgia Hardstark [75:38]: "I know. I have no idea what's going on in this one. This is crazy, isn't it?"

Karen Kilgarith [75:29]: "It's just the sadness, tragic, unnecessary death of this young woman."
Looking Forward: They express excitement for upcoming episodes and invite listeners to participate in their live shows and support their charitable initiatives.

Georgia Hardstark [78:51]: "Thank you guys for listening to this episode of Rewind and for sticking with us and still being here."

Casey O'Brien [79:04]: "And until then, stay sexy and don't get murdered."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

Karen Kilgarith [22:05]: "Do you remember the America's Most Wanted about John List, the man who killed his entire family and then disappeared for 19 years?"
Georgia Hardstark [33:09]: "You know what I mean?"
Karen Kilgarith [40:26]: "So he put these big old glasses. Remember that, dude?"
Georgia Hardstark [75:38]: "I know. I have no idea what's going on in this one. This is crazy, isn't it?"
Karen Kilgarith [75:29]: "It's just the sadness, tragic, unnecessary death of this young woman."

Conclusion

Episode 29 of "Rewind with Karen & Georgia" offers a profound exploration of one of true crime's most infamous cases while simultaneously addressing pressing contemporary issues. Karen Kilgarith and Georgia Hardstark adeptly blend detailed storytelling with insightful analysis, underscoring their commitment to not only entertain but also educate and advocate for vulnerable communities. This episode stands as a testament to their dedication and the evolving landscape of the true crime genre.

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Transcript747 lines

[00:02]
Karen Kilgarith
This is exactly right. This episode is brought to you by Companion. Iris and Josh seem like the perfect match, but when a weekend getaway turns into a nightmare, Iris realizes that things aren't as perfect as they appear. From the creators of Barbarian and the studio that brought you the Notebook comes a twisted tale of modern romance and the sweet satisfaction of revenge. Companion only in theaters January 31st. Rated R. Under 17. Not admitted without parent. I'm Millie Decherico. I'm a film programmer, historian and writer. And I'm Casey O'Brien, podcast producer, filmmaker and lover of movies. And now we're teaming up on a brand new podcast called Dear Movies, I Love youe. We want to talk about all the movies we're crushing on, from hidden gems to blockbuster favorites. Each week, Casey and I will have heated debates, give flawless recommendations, and talk about what's going on in cinema. Dear Movies, I love you on exactly right. Premieres Tuesday, January 28th. Listen every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. The end.
[01:27]
Georgia Hardstark
My favorite hell. Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.
[01:41]
Casey O'Brien
You see, every Wednesday, we transport you to a simpler time, back when the iPhone 7 was cutting edge and Suicide Squad dominated the box office.
[01:50]
Georgia Hardstark
That's right. So join us as we take you back to August 11, 2016, because now you can basically all be day one listeners.
[01:58]
Casey O'Brien
And today we're recapping episode 29, which at the time we named 29 with the German spelling of the word nine.
[02:06]
Georgia Hardstark
29, I think is how you pronounce it.
[02:09]
Casey O'Brien
Seems problematic to me in the light of 2025.
[02:13]
Georgia Hardstark
In the light of everything, everything is problematic.
[02:15]
Casey O'Brien
Yeah, that's very true.
[02:16]
Georgia Hardstark
So let's listen to the Intro to episode 29.
[02:24]
Karen Kilgarith
Welcome to My Favorite Murder.
[02:27]
Georgia Hardstark
That's Karen Kilgarith.
[02:29]
Karen Kilgarith
That is Georgia Hardstart.
[02:30]
Georgia Hardstark
You know, no one can tell our.
[02:31]
Karen Kilgarith
Voices apart still, I know it's pretty weird.
[02:34]
Georgia Hardstark
Someone sent us. I love when the true the hometown murders are people sending in, like, I know secret information about the case you already covered.
[02:45]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes.
[02:45]
Georgia Hardstark
Because I know people from the. Whatever the fuck.
[02:47]
Karen Kilgarith
We love that.
[02:48]
Georgia Hardstark
And someone was like last week sent us one and was like, karen, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but it was my case. Yeah, I was like, I'm sorry.
[02:57]
Karen Kilgarith
No, we're sorry to disappoint you. There's. That happens a lot when people talk about. I love when I think they say, like Karen says, oh, my fucking God. During when George is telling whatever it was, it was like the reverse. And I knew it was for sure because it was like One of your phrases.
[03:13]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Jesus fucking Christ.
[03:16]
Karen Kilgarith
But yeah, I mean, I. I just think it's precious.
[03:19]
Georgia Hardstark
It's so weird. I feel like. I mean, we're such different people. There was a thing on Facebook that was like, are you a Karen or a Georgia? Did you see that? And it made me sad.
[03:27]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, why? Because I was like, no one wants to be me. Were they both bad? No.
[03:32]
Georgia Hardstark
Everyone loves you and I'm not. I was just. Everyone's like, I'm a Karen, but my best friend is a Georgia. So that's fine.
[03:41]
Karen Kilgarith
I'm a Karen.
[03:43]
Georgia Hardstark
How do we. And then people were. We're like, it's funny how people will explain to other people how you can tell the difference between us. And it's that you sing everything.
[03:52]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes, that's me. And I also have a scratchy voice because sometimes. Sometimes late at night, I smoke cigarettes.
[03:59]
Georgia Hardstark
You do not.
[03:59]
Casey O'Brien
Yeah, I do.
[04:00]
Georgia Hardstark
Do you, Karen?
[04:01]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah, sometimes. And you can tell, you can actually, you can tell how many I've been smoking because, like right now, I've been smoking.
[04:08]
Georgia Hardstark
I don't know why I'm scandalized by this.
[04:10]
Karen Kilgarith
Are you really?
[04:10]
Georgia Hardstark
Because you never told me. And I feel like I thought we knew. I thought I knew you.
[04:15]
Karen Kilgarith
No, I don't.
[04:16]
Georgia Hardstark
It's also because it's such a special thing that you do alone. And I think it's wonderful that you have that time to yourself.
[04:22]
Karen Kilgarith
Well, sometimes at my house, like, I'm home at the end of the night.
[04:25]
Georgia Hardstark
And you have a great backyard. What else are you gonna use it for?
[04:27]
Karen Kilgarith
I go sit in that backyard sometimes. I just stick my feet right in that pool.
[04:30]
Georgia Hardstark
Karen, you're living the life I wanna live.
[04:33]
Karen Kilgarith
It's pretty. I don't mind it. But it's also like, I'm tired and I don't get to drink anymore and I don't get to do anything anymore. So I'll just smoke a little hand rolled valley shag.
[04:46]
Georgia Hardstark
Sarah, do you hand the. Roll them yourself?
[04:48]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah.
[04:49]
Georgia Hardstark
Karen, this is why everyone wanted to.
[04:52]
Karen Kilgarith
Be you, because I'm so fucking European.
[04:55]
Georgia Hardstark
They were saying, like, Karen's a badass and I want to be. I think it's because I'm scared of everything. And talk about therapy.
[05:00]
Karen Kilgarith
That's all it is, is, is you are honest about your anxieties. And I'm always like, just try to kill me. Which is the most insane thing. Every once in a while it'll hit me where I'm like, oh, I've actually said that out loud in permanently. These recordings are permanent. There's nothing we can do about it. And I've actually been like, I don't care.
[05:19]
Georgia Hardstark
When the end is totally unchanged, there's gonna be no record of this.
[05:22]
Karen Kilgarith
So it doesn't matter when what happens.
[05:24]
Georgia Hardstark
The end days come.
[05:25]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[05:25]
Georgia Hardstark
This is all gonna be wiped off, but.
[05:27]
Karen Kilgarith
Well, the grid's gonna go down and it won't matter what's recorded because we won't be able to access it.
[05:31]
Georgia Hardstark
Delta is the first.
[05:33]
Karen Kilgarith
Is the first airplane line that'll go down.
[05:36]
Georgia Hardstark
No, it just went down like yesterday. Delta, they had like a blackout really, at their main hub and everything was grounded. And it's like across the country. Yeah, they're like, there was just a glitch. And you're like, bullshit, Bullshit. Whenever I hear those things. And I was like, someone. There was just a glitch.
[05:52]
Karen Kilgarith
No way. Don't even.
[05:54]
Georgia Hardstark
No, there was.
[05:55]
Karen Kilgarith
That was the lizard men that are underneath the Denver airport.
[05:59]
Georgia Hardstark
Yes, they are.
[06:00]
Karen Kilgarith
They're down there and they're fucking with the mainframe, man. Don't even.
[06:05]
Georgia Hardstark
How much did you love as soon as I heard this on Stranger Things that they had a fucking MK Ultra line, like storyline? Did you watch it all?
[06:19]
Karen Kilgarith
No, I ha. I think I have like 2 left or 3 left.
[06:22]
Georgia Hardstark
Have you been to the possible 11's mom's house yet? No.
[06:30]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes.
[06:31]
Georgia Hardstark
They mention MK Ultra in that.
[06:33]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, that's why she's like that.
[06:34]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, because she was one of the people they were experimenting on. Has anyone listened to this? I don't want to. I don't want to spoil anything.
[06:40]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Spoilers. Okay. I missed that detail.
[06:45]
Georgia Hardstark
I just thought they say MK Ultra in it.
[06:47]
Karen Kilgarith
Holy shit.
[06:48]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[06:49]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, that makes me like it 1,000 times more.
[06:52]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[06:53]
Karen Kilgarith
Okay. I have to go back and get through. I have to be honest when I binge watch shows, especially on Netflix, and you just can like hit enter on the blue box and you just keep going. There'll be times where I'll just fall asleep and I don't even know which one I'm on. I just wake up and keep watching whatever's on.
[07:09]
Georgia Hardstark
I have the kind of insomnia that you can't fall asleep in front of television. I've never fallen asleep in front of maybe wrestling. That's Vince's fault.
[07:19]
Karen Kilgarith
Wow. We couldn't be more different. That's how I fall asleep every night. It's very bad for you to sleep in front of the tv.
[07:24]
Georgia Hardstark
Well, now I wonder how bad it is. I can't fall asleep now without listening to the sleep with me podcast. Oh, that's like, I can't.
[07:31]
Karen Kilgarith
You're his slave.
[07:32]
Georgia Hardstark
I'm his slave. It's the best. So I wonder if someday they're going to be like, it's worse than falling asleep to tv because he's infiltrating my dreams.
[07:41]
Karen Kilgarith
That's right. Well, if he is from NK Ultra, you're screwed. Oh, yeah, yeah.
[07:46]
Georgia Hardstark
I'm okay with it.
[07:47]
Casey O'Brien
Do you think he.
[07:47]
Georgia Hardstark
He's so great.
[07:48]
Karen Kilgarith
You're fine with it?
[07:49]
Georgia Hardstark
I'm fine with it.
[07:50]
Karen Kilgarith
Whatever his agenda might be.
[07:51]
Georgia Hardstark
Like, same with Elvis. When everyone is like, oh, you know, you get a virus from cats and it takes over your brain and makes you a zombie. And I'm like, I don't care.
[07:59]
Karen Kilgarith
He's so cute. He's so nice.
[08:01]
Georgia Hardstark
He's so sweet. If he thinks I need a to be a zombie, then I'll. You know, he knows what's best for me.
[08:06]
Karen Kilgarith
Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. And also, you know, you're gonna go. Whether you're a zombie for a cat or you get hit by a bus, you are going to leave this earthly plane. So just accept it.
[08:16]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. His head smells like a library book.
[08:21]
Karen Kilgarith
The girl who Was in Love with her Cat.
[08:25]
Georgia Hardstark
All right. Do you have housekeeping?
[08:27]
Karen Kilgarith
I have a housekeeping that makes me very happy. Oh, good, because it's twofold. Housekeeping. It was a tweet. My hero, Nico Case, singer songwriter, Nico.
[08:38]
Georgia Hardstark
Case, tweeted, you got a tiny little happy clap from Stephen just now. Yay. We all love her. We love Nico Case.
[08:46]
Karen Kilgarith
Don't tell me that the connection was lost and there was a loading error. Phone.
[08:49]
Georgia Hardstark
No.
[08:50]
Karen Kilgarith
Well, basically, she retweeted this story. I'm pretty sure it was from the cbc, about how the Canadian government is now opening an investigation on all the missing indigenous women in Canada. So that's like, all the women. So, you know, like Robert Pickton. I'm going to eventually do one on him if you don't beat me to it. He's the pig farmer in Canada that was just murdering women, and I think it was in the hundreds.
[09:18]
Georgia Hardstark
Did he feed? Yeah.
[09:20]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. It's a bad one. It's so dark.
[09:23]
Georgia Hardstark
I wouldn't tell that it's yours.
[09:24]
Karen Kilgarith
Okay. Because it's too dark.
[09:27]
Georgia Hardstark
It's too. It's too something for me, but I don't know what yet.
[09:33]
Karen Kilgarith
Too many pigs.
[09:34]
Georgia Hardstark
Too many pigs, man. No, it's just. Yeah. I don't know.
[09:39]
Karen Kilgarith
Well, so there's.
[09:40]
Georgia Hardstark
It's too. Making a murderer.
[09:42]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, okay.
[09:42]
Georgia Hardstark
In a lot of different ways. Go ahead. Sorry.
[09:44]
Karen Kilgarith
Well, there's just a. There's been a bunch of. And this is very. In America, I think our version of it is women of color, black women that get murdered. And it's just as if no one talks about it isn't you. You see, all the little blonde girls are always on the news if they go missing or are murdered. But it doesn't happen with black women. And so the Canadian version I. Is indigenous women. Indian women is the incorrect term for it, but so there's the highway of Tears where women go disappearing on it. Robert Pickton. They named another guy that. I didn't recognize the name. I hope Pickton is the right last name. Anyway, you know what?
[10:21]
Georgia Hardstark
I won't do mass murders because I feel like I won't give enough time to each of the women. I'd rather do a. This is what the victim was, who the victim was. Their story.
[10:30]
Karen Kilgarith
Right.
[10:30]
Georgia Hardstark
Thank. Here's who the murderer was. And it's like. And there's 19 women, right?
[10:35]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. No, then that's okay. This is bad.
[10:37]
Georgia Hardstark
So that's yours.
[10:38]
Karen Kilgarith
But anyway, it's.
[10:39]
Georgia Hardstark
It.
[10:39]
Karen Kilgarith
It's like hundreds of indigenous indigenous women have gone missing in the last say. If I could open this article, I would. God, I would be accurate with.
[10:49]
Georgia Hardstark
Sorry.
[10:49]
Karen Kilgarith
But no, that's okay.
[10:50]
Georgia Hardstark
You wanna pause? I have. I can give you my wi Fi connection. I know every time you get upset that. Let's pause it.
[10:56]
Karen Kilgarith
No, no, no, no, no, it's fine. Because the general idea is just what Nico Case was trying to get the word out about. And I. I retweeted it on our Twitter feed as well. Is just. The government is trying to do something about it. They're trying to find the women. They're trying to investigate the murders. They're trying to actually put a focus and say these women are important, just as important as anybody else. And we're gonna do something about this. Which is humongous that a country on the whole would just admit that they haven't up until this point and now they're going to.
[11:27]
Georgia Hardstark
That's incredible.
[11:27]
Karen Kilgarith
It's really great.
[11:29]
Georgia Hardstark
That's amazing.
[11:30]
Karen Kilgarith
It's very hopeful. To me about like this. It feels like a new era in crime. Thank you. The name of the article is just how an unflinching gaze on missing and murdered indigenous women might move Canada forward.
[11:45]
Georgia Hardstark
Incredible.
[11:46]
Karen Kilgarith
Very cool. And I was right. It's a CBC news. I'll take it. If it's even that small, I will take an accuracy moment.
[11:56]
Georgia Hardstark
I will not take it away from you.
[11:57]
Casey O'Brien
Thank you.
[11:57]
Karen Kilgarith
I Appreciate it. I mean, that's really the whole story. Story.
[12:00]
Georgia Hardstark
That's. I'm still trying to think of a way that we can donate part of the proceeds or, like, help some way with the untested rape kit situation. Marshka. Mariska.
[12:13]
Karen Kilgarith
Mariska Hargitay.
[12:14]
Georgia Hardstark
Thank you. I want to give her all my money and, like, do it. Help her. Georgia was in a manic episode, and.
[12:21]
Karen Kilgarith
Karen, she gave a multi millionaire all.
[12:25]
Georgia Hardstark
Her money, and Karen totally was like, do it. So. So George is suing Karen.
[12:30]
Karen Kilgarith
I think that's a. It all ends in a lawsuit between you and I. Oh, I didn't see that coming.
[12:36]
Georgia Hardstark
Because of my undiagnosed manic. No, I don't have that.
[12:39]
Karen Kilgarith
We call it the big giveaway. Georgia really just. No, no, no. I think that's a really good idea. I would love to. The proceeds of something that we earn money for, because this podcast goes to those untested.
[12:51]
Georgia Hardstark
Well, we have live shows. Like, you guys were in the process of, like, having live shows be a part of our lives. Yeah.
[12:58]
Karen Kilgarith
And a part of your lives, Texas.
[13:01]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, we're gonna invite people.
[13:02]
Karen Kilgarith
Te some numbers back. That was a brag. But we got some numbers back. And, hey, Texas, turns out you like us.
[13:10]
Georgia Hardstark
I was so surprised by that.
[13:11]
Karen Kilgarith
We both started laughing so hard, but it makes sense. Yeah, that's Texas.
[13:16]
Georgia Hardstark
Texas has some good murders.
[13:18]
Karen Kilgarith
Texas knows what they're talking about in terms of murder.
[13:22]
Georgia Hardstark
Can I just say that once we got all this. We got all this, like, information about our numbers, and then we were driving home, and we almost had to pull over to start crying with how happy we both were. But how. Well, this is how. Like, how. What a great.
[13:34]
Karen Kilgarith
It's pretty nice.
[13:34]
Georgia Hardstark
It's pretty great.
[13:35]
Karen Kilgarith
It's pretty nice that we're. We're getting popular because we talk about death. Yeah, I think that's lovely.
[13:41]
Georgia Hardstark
I love you guys. Thanks for listening. Okay. I also want to say really quickly that in therapy. In therapy, one of the things I talked about was that how crazy I am and how much anxiety I have because when I go to the back of my building to do laundry, I lock my front door. And how crazy is that? That I think someone's gonna break in? And then I read an article. There's a fucking Echo park rapist. And one of the ways he got into her house was when she was doing fucking laundry in the back of her apartment. And she left her door unlocked and went in.
[14:09]
Karen Kilgarith
There is. It's not anxiety when you're just being careful.
[14:14]
Georgia Hardstark
I texted my therapist the article and.
[14:17]
Karen Kilgarith
Said, in your face, bitch.
[14:18]
Georgia Hardstark
No. Cause she was like, you know, yeah, now she doesn't want to see me anymore.
[14:22]
Karen Kilgarith
And now she said, find someone else.
[14:24]
Georgia Hardstark
Because she was like, we're allowed to take certain precautions and that's okay, and you can do that. But when you start, you know, blah, blah, blah, then it's. So she supported it. And I was like, I feel so justified.
[14:36]
Karen Kilgarith
Well, also, that's good. I mean, Jesus Christ.
[14:38]
Georgia Hardstark
Good to know, right?
[14:39]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes. Hey, there's. There's no shame in locking things double. I lock. People will walk by in the crosswalk and they're part of my brain goes. They might be able to hear it if you lock the door or whatever. And it's like, I don't give a. Doesn't matter much louder voice that says, sorry to offend you, but you don't get to. In case you had the idea.
[14:59]
Georgia Hardstark
Right.
[14:59]
Karen Kilgarith
Maybe you're on some white drug.
[15:00]
Georgia Hardstark
So, like when you're sitting at a stop sign and someone goes to walk by and you go click to lock your car door. Yeah, yeah. You're like, oh, they're gonna get mad at me. You.
[15:09]
Karen Kilgarith
Well, because you look creepy.
[15:10]
Georgia Hardstark
That's a good way to let someone know they look creepy.
[15:12]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah, I get the idea because you're giving me the eyes. So. Yeah, don't. We've said this a million times. Politeness.
[15:20]
Georgia Hardstark
Politeness. Yeah. There could be new listeners who don't yet. No to politeness.
[15:25]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, yeah. Politeness. And. Oh, you'll. You'll learn. There's a ton of stuff.
[15:32]
Georgia Hardstark
You'll have a lot of experiences in your life that'll make you. Make you question.
[15:37]
Karen Kilgarith
How about if you're going between the laundry room and your house, lock your goddamn door.
[15:42]
Georgia Hardstark
Lock your door.
[15:42]
Karen Kilgarith
Lock. If you live in a major city or not at your parents house, lock your door.
[15:47]
Georgia Hardstark
It feels really good. Because literally that. That was a worry every single time I walk out back is I come in the door and I check for the cats. Because if the cats were still out where they were, that meant no one was in there because. But if they were hiding, that would mean someone came in the house, right? That's crazy.
[16:04]
Karen Kilgarith
No, but it's not. That's a good theory. That's a theory based on observation.
[16:08]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. And we're back.
[16:13]
Casey O'Brien
Hey, if you're still listening from Texas. Thank you.
[16:17]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, thanks.
[16:18]
Karen Kilgarith
Incredible.
[16:18]
Casey O'Brien
What a miracle.
[16:20]
Georgia Hardstark
Texas was there in the beginning. They were there hard for us. They do that. They do everything a little hard. Like.
[16:26]
Casey O'Brien
Yeah, they're like, they rep and they're there. That made me think of. Wasn't it in Texas, I believe, Dallas, when the women got into our van to go to the theater and the.
[16:40]
Karen Kilgarith
Driver was just like, yeah.
[16:41]
Casey O'Brien
No, they just thought it was like one of the Ubers or something. And the driver was just like, yeah.
[16:45]
Karen Kilgarith
I guess these are the podcasts.
[16:46]
Georgia Hardstark
Two girls. Yeah, that was. They were. And then we met them as they returned to the hotel and returned to the dense house. Yeah. And they were very funny. Yeah.
[17:00]
Casey O'Brien
That's Texas to me. That's Texas in my heart.
[17:03]
Georgia Hardstark
The most beautiful night. It's so funny that that was the beginning of. Are you a Karen? Are you a Georgia?
[17:07]
Casey O'Brien
I know. That was like the Buzzfeed days. Crazy.
[17:13]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, yeah.
[17:13]
Casey O'Brien
Seems like 1,000 years ago.
[17:15]
Karen Kilgarith
That was a Buzzfeed quiz.
[17:17]
Georgia Hardstark
So exciting. Like, this is when everything was just like, pop in a really unexpected, insane way. Like, we just didn't know what the hell was happening.
[17:29]
Casey O'Brien
We really didn't. We thought it was kind of funny. And as I've said a thousand times, I thought it was gonna wrap up.
[17:35]
Karen Kilgarith
In three to five weeks.
[17:37]
Georgia Hardstark
And you never covered Robert Pickton, which I think is a good thing. Right.
[17:42]
Karen Kilgarith
I do too.
[17:42]
Casey O'Brien
I was gonna remember that show we did the first time we did a show in Vancouver. I was gonna cover him at that Vancouver show. Remember we were in that high rise hotel. There was like.
[17:52]
Karen Kilgarith
We had, like.
[17:52]
Casey O'Brien
We were on the 18th floor or something. We had these amazing views.
[17:55]
Georgia Hardstark
Wasn't I sick? And so I was an hour late. Cause I was napping and just like, didn't put the time correct because I was like. Cause I was like, literally had a cold on stage.
[18:06]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. Yes.
[18:07]
Casey O'Brien
There was also one also in Vancouver where I went downstairs and couldn't find where Vince was meeting us. So you were on one side of the hotel and I was on the other, and I could not figure out where you were.
[18:18]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[18:18]
Casey O'Brien
Do you remember that one where it.
[18:19]
Karen Kilgarith
Was like everything was like this weird.
[18:21]
Casey O'Brien
Delay or just kind of like, what's going on?
[18:24]
Georgia Hardstark
That's what touring is. It's just a delay to get to.
[18:27]
Casey O'Brien
A place to wait to do homework.
[18:31]
Georgia Hardstark
Right. And not look at anything about the.
[18:33]
Casey O'Brien
City and then have 3,000 people cheer for you? So.
[18:38]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Did you see this update that Robert Pickton was murdered in prison just this past June, Right?
[18:45]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah.
[18:45]
Georgia Hardstark
Wow.
[18:46]
Casey O'Brien
I mean, not a surprise. He's one of the worst serial killers of all time. He is one of the worst predators of women and marginalized women. And like, that story and all of that corruption around that story is so Fucking dark. That when I went to do it in Vancouver, like, oh, this is your guys hometown. It's like there's nothing nobody wants to recount. Basically this kind of like internal corruption that allows women with no voice to just be brutalized over and over and over.
[19:20]
Georgia Hardstark
No, there's a few of these murders that I feel like we'll never do. And we've talked about it. This is one of them. The Speedbox Toy Box killer, the Speed Freak Killer. And then Charles Ng, I feel like, will never do. Just because like you read it and it's just. There's just. It's just an empty pit of fucking horribleness.
[19:44]
Casey O'Brien
I think too. It's like that's how you kind of learn the shape of when you're doing a podcast. It's like we very early on understood that we were gonna do this podcast our way. You know, for example, talking for 45 minutes at the beginning about everything but true crime, et cetera, et cetera.
[20:02]
Karen Kilgarith
But like, just because to follow the.
[20:06]
Casey O'Brien
Pattern of standardized true crime is like.
[20:08]
Karen Kilgarith
Is a very difficult.
[20:10]
Casey O'Brien
Those shows that do it that are actually journalist led and thoroughly researched and.
[20:16]
Karen Kilgarith
Are like, are invaluable.
[20:17]
Georgia Hardstark
Have compassion. Yeah.
[20:19]
Casey O'Brien
Yes.
[20:20]
Karen Kilgarith
But it's like just to retell these stories is.
[20:23]
Casey O'Brien
It's just the darkness is tough.
[20:27]
Georgia Hardstark
You need something more than that for sure.
[20:29]
Casey O'Brien
Especially in a quarantine, for example.
[20:32]
Georgia Hardstark
Right, right. Which we were in for quite a while, if I remember correctly.
[20:36]
Casey O'Brien
We were in for quite a while.
[20:38]
Georgia Hardstark
Real quick, before we get into your story, we did mention Marissa Hargitay is a nonprofit. It's still going on. It's called the Joyful Heart foundation. And since 2004, Joyful Heart has been a leading national organization with a mission to transform society's response to sexual assault, domestic violence and child abuse, support survivors healing, and end this violence forever.
[20:59]
Casey O'Brien
Yes. You can donate or learn more about the Joyful Heart foundation by going to joyfulheartfoundation.org I mean, I think Mariska Hargitay is like a legend now for having played Olivia Benson on SVU for years and years and then basically turning all of that work into this activism. That's really been very effective. And like, it's just the coolest.
[21:25]
Karen Kilgarith
She's the coolest.
[21:25]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. And hey, while we're here, let's donate 10 grand to the Joyful Heart Foundation.
[21:31]
Karen Kilgarith
Love it.
[21:32]
Casey O'Brien
Great idea.
[21:33]
Georgia Hardstark
Cool.
[21:33]
Karen Kilgarith
How do you get these ideas?
[21:35]
Georgia Hardstark
It's just, they just come into my mind. I don't even know how. Speaking of ideas coming from nowhere, let's Listen to your epic story. This is like a classic, Karen, telling the story of John. Listen.
[21:56]
Karen Kilgarith
So I've known about this one for a long time because it was made famous by that great American television show, America's Most Wanted.
[22:05]
Georgia Hardstark
Hell, yeah.
[22:06]
Karen Kilgarith
Do you remember the America's Most Wanted about John List, the man who killed his entire family and then disappeared for 19 years?
[22:12]
Georgia Hardstark
Yes.
[22:13]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes, you do.
[22:14]
Georgia Hardstark
Fuck yes.
[22:15]
Karen Kilgarith
Well, that's my favorite murder for this week.
[22:18]
Georgia Hardstark
Let me hear it.
[22:19]
Karen Kilgarith
I'm going to tell you all about it. All right, so John List was a successful businessman. He was a devout lifelong Lutheran. He was a Sunday school teacher. He was a boy Scout leader, a husband, a father of three. His family lived with his mother, so their grandmother, in a sprawling 19 room mansion called Breeze Knoll in Westfield, New Jersey. But behind closed doors, things are not going well.
[22:48]
Georgia Hardstark
Shocking.
[22:49]
Karen Kilgarith
This is me kind of trying to write like a, you know, 2020 version of this.
[22:54]
Georgia Hardstark
This is a narrative.
[22:56]
Karen Kilgarith
This is. I'm really trying to put something into this and it might not really work out that well because it feels a bit sweaty right now. I feel like I'm trying.
[23:04]
Georgia Hardstark
Well, it's hot in here.
[23:05]
Karen Kilgarith
It also is very hot. It's summer in Los Angeles.
[23:09]
Georgia Hardstark
Yay.
[23:10]
Karen Kilgarith
So John List's wife Helen, which they didn't. None of this you knew from America's Most Wanted.
[23:16]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, I love this stuff. Tell me.
[23:17]
Karen Kilgarith
His wife Helen was an alcoholic who was verbally abusive and unstable.
[23:22]
Georgia Hardstark
She sounds fun.
[23:23]
Karen Kilgarith
When you see the picture of the List family, her eyes are going in two different directions.
[23:28]
Georgia Hardstark
Was she dressed well, though?
[23:30]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes, it was. The picture, I think was from like the mid-60s. So they look like any family.
[23:35]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God. I just picture her at like a party and she's just drunk and like. But she looks amazing.
[23:40]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes, I love it. She's got like a Jackie O outfit on, but her face is like, is just like kooky eyes and like bubbles above her head.
[23:49]
Georgia Hardstark
She's like talking loudly about their bedroom secrets.
[23:52]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, yeah, girl, you just nailed it.
[23:53]
Georgia Hardstark
Shut up.
[23:54]
Karen Kilgarith
Okay, ready?
[23:55]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God.
[23:57]
Karen Kilgarith
So she had demanded that, that John buy her that colonial mansion in Westfield, which is a very ritzy, apparently town in New Jersey, or was in the same 60s and 70s when John landed his high status position as bank vice president and comptroller, which is one of my favorite words in the English language.
[24:18]
Georgia Hardstark
So good.
[24:19]
Karen Kilgarith
Comptroller. I don't know what it means. I love to say it. I'm running for comptroller this. This year. Okay, so what no one knew is that John had recently been fired from being the bank president and comptroller.
[24:34]
Georgia Hardstark
Stress.
[24:35]
Karen Kilgarith
And he, even though he was an ambitious career man, could never hold a job for more than a couple of years because of his personality problems. Personality issues. Quote, unquote.
[24:47]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God.
[24:49]
Karen Kilgarith
But he couldn't let his family know that he'd gotten fired. So every day he got up and he put on his suit and he grabbed his briefcase and he went to the train station like he was going to work.
[24:58]
Georgia Hardstark
Those people terrify me.
[25:01]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes. It's such deep denial. It's insane. Denial of like, da, da, da, Everything's fine. And then there's crazy things boiling underneath those people, man. Yeah. So he would sit at the train station and read newspapers all day until it was time to, quote, unquote, come home from work.
[25:18]
Georgia Hardstark
Holy shit.
[25:19]
Karen Kilgarith
Right? And meanwhile, he was skimming money off of his mother's bank account so he could pay his crazy mortgage on his colonial 19 room mansion. And all the other bills are piling up. So, in short, John List was Lutheran. Fuck up under pressure. That's what I wrote.
[25:42]
Georgia Hardstark
That's good.
[25:43]
Karen Kilgarith
So here's his plan. He. On the morning of November 9, 1971, after his children had left for school, John walked into the kitchen where his wife was drinking her morning coffee at the kitchen table. And he walked up and he shot her in the back of the head with a 9 millimeter handgun.
[26:01]
Georgia Hardstark
Wow.
[26:02]
Karen Kilgarith
Then he went upstairs to the third floor of their mansion where his mother had her own. Like, what are the suite. Yes. Her own little apartment.
[26:11]
Georgia Hardstark
Wing.
[26:11]
Karen Kilgarith
Wing, yeah, wing of the mansion. And he shot her in the head right over her left eye, which to me sounds like he shot her face to face.
[26:21]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, yeah.
[26:22]
Karen Kilgarith
Which is pretty intense.
[26:24]
Georgia Hardstark
Jesus.
[26:24]
Karen Kilgarith
Then he drove to the bank and he closed his account and his mother's accounts and he cashed in his mother's savings bonds. He came home, he went to a study, he collected some old photos and documents concerning the mansion's history, and he put them in a neat pile on his desk and he composed a letter, a thank you letter to John Wittke, who was a descendant of the original owner of the house. The shit, you know, the important stuff.
[26:47]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Yeah.
[26:48]
Karen Kilgarith
And then he also wrote four other letters. He called Barbara Bader, who was the woman who carpooled his sons John and Fred to Roosevelt Junior High School. And she had done that for the last time that morning.
[27:01]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God.
[27:01]
Karen Kilgarith
He made an excuse that the whole family was leaving to go to North Carolina the next morning because Helen's mother was extremely Ill. And he promised that he would let her know when they were coming back. Then he canceled the newspaper milk delivery, and he asked the post office to hold the mail until further notice. Was there going to be further notice?
[27:23]
Georgia Hardstark
Absolutely not.
[27:24]
Karen Kilgarith
No. So now it was lunchtime. So he made himself a lunch.
[27:29]
Georgia Hardstark
No.
[27:30]
Karen Kilgarith
Sat down at the table where he had just shot his wife, and then cleaned up the blood off the table.
[27:35]
Georgia Hardstark
Bologna or cold meatloaf?
[27:38]
Karen Kilgarith
I would guess bologna. Because he's just like. He's all business. He just wants to get proteins and calories.
[27:44]
Georgia Hardstark
Bologna on white. With mustard?
[27:47]
Karen Kilgarith
With mustard only.
[27:48]
Georgia Hardstark
And some. Do they have potato chips Back then.
[27:51]
Karen Kilgarith
I don't think John List would eat potato chips. I think he would eat two sandwiches instead of having a delicious side.
[27:56]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God, Karen. That was the best. That was what I was looking for because I love food details.
[28:02]
Karen Kilgarith
That's my opinion of John List's food details.
[28:05]
Georgia Hardstark
No, that was. That was beautiful.
[28:06]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. That's the kind of stuff I can't understand that, like, that's such a dude move.
[28:11]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, yeah.
[28:11]
Karen Kilgarith
Where I'm like, you could have chips, the only thing you want with a sandwich.
[28:15]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[28:15]
Karen Kilgarith
Or pickles.
[28:16]
Georgia Hardstark
Pickle slices.
[28:17]
Karen Kilgarith
Pickles are nice.
[28:18]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[28:19]
Karen Kilgarith
But I always. You know, me and the starches.
[28:21]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, right. Well, sure. Everyone. But you just don't keep them at your house. I don't eat them all.
[28:25]
Karen Kilgarith
That's right.
[28:26]
Georgia Hardstark
I mean, not you. One.
[28:28]
Karen Kilgarith
One. So then he went around and cut himself out of every family photo in the entire house.
[28:37]
Georgia Hardstark
Why is that the craziest part?
[28:38]
Karen Kilgarith
That is to me, I did it as a standalone because it's the creepiest fact to me in this whole case. It's so fucking creepy.
[28:46]
Georgia Hardstark
That is so creepy.
[28:48]
Karen Kilgarith
Then come now. It's early afternoon, so he's waiting for his children to come home from school. Patricia, who was 16, a drama nerd.
[29:00]
Georgia Hardstark
Aw.
[29:00]
Karen Kilgarith
And it was 1971. So she had been caught smoking pot.
[29:05]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, she was the coolest.
[29:07]
Karen Kilgarith
She was cool. And she came home.
[29:09]
Georgia Hardstark
He shot her in the back of the head, honey.
[29:11]
Karen Kilgarith
Then his son Frederick, the youngest, who was 13, came home, he shot him in the back of the head, babe.
[29:17]
Georgia Hardstark
So they didn't even know that their father.
[29:20]
Karen Kilgarith
No. And he. And he actually, in the court later revealed that he did it, his wife and his kids, back of the head. So that they didn't know what happened.
[29:29]
Georgia Hardstark
But mom is a different story.
[29:31]
Karen Kilgarith
His mother was a different story. Which is very telling to me.
[29:33]
Georgia Hardstark
Let's get to. Yeah, tell me more.
[29:35]
Karen Kilgarith
But then also, John Jr. Is a different story. The 15 year old who was named after him and supposedly his favorite. There was like a couple different versions of this. Some said he just came straight home from school. But the one I like the best, which is the one I will tell, is that he had a soccer game that day. So John List drove to the school, watched his son's soccer game, drove him home, tried to shoot him, but he maybe saw the gun and freaked out. So he ended up shooting him in the face and chest over 10 times.
[30:10]
Georgia Hardstark
Whoa.
[30:11]
Karen Kilgarith
So overkill. Crazy fucking overkill. And knew what was happening as it went.
[30:17]
Georgia Hardstark
Once in the chest and once in the face. I get. Something went worse than wrong. Or he hated him more. Like something went especially wrong. For 10 times.
[30:29]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes, because this was a man that was doing it like neatly and cleanly and pretending systematically. He was like checking off a list. But when it came this guy wasn't, John Jr. Didn't play ball and made it hard for him. And I think that's like the rage came up.
[30:47]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, yeah. Like, how dare you.
[30:48]
Karen Kilgarith
You're making this too hard for me.
[30:49]
Georgia Hardstark
Not even like you're showing me how. What horrible. I am. No, no, no, you're. You're ruining my plan.
[30:55]
Karen Kilgarith
You're ruining my good time. Oh my God, it's hideous. So then he dragged. He got sleeping bags from down from the basement and he put all the bodies on the sleeping bags, then dragged them into the back of the house. To what room? The ballroom? Yes. Yeah, they had a ballroom in this mansion that wasn't even decorated or furnished in any way. That's how big this house was. And so he pulled his wife and three children's dead bodies on sleeping bags back into the ballroom. He put a piece of cloth over each of their faces and he left them there. Turned it into basically like a makeshift morgue. Then he fed the children's pet fish in the 20 gallon tank in the dining room, went upstairs and went to sleep.
[31:47]
Georgia Hardstark
Holy shit.
[31:48]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. So he's. Are the fish okay? That's the kind of thought this man is having. Are the fish okay?
[31:55]
Georgia Hardstark
Is this. I mean, as much as. Because I need to put a name on things. Is this sociopath?
[32:01]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, I. We'll talk about the name later. But I. He probably. I mean, I don't know. Enough. Anytime. It's like, clearly you have no feelings. Yeah, that's what I want to label it as.
[32:10]
Georgia Hardstark
Me too. But yeah, it's almost.
[32:11]
Karen Kilgarith
But he is. The real term for this guy is a family annihilator. Yeah. And it's like a thing that Happens. And there's a couple different kinds and.
[32:19]
Georgia Hardstark
They'Ll never kill anyone else again kind of a thing.
[32:22]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes. Right. It's. It's a situational thing for them.
[32:26]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Tell me more.
[32:27]
Karen Kilgarith
Okay. So the next morning, he gets up, he gets dressed, he goes downstairs, he turns the thermostat all the way down. He turns on every light in the house. Hmm. And then he leaves the house, and he leaves Westfield forever. Now, the weird thing is no one noticed, of course, no one in the neighborhood noticed that this family was not there. And that's because they. This family did not socialize, which is kind of common if you have a crazy, drunk mom. Like, they stayed in, they didn't talk to anybody. The neighbors knew John List as the guy who mowed his lawn in a suit and tie.
[33:06]
Georgia Hardstark
Jesus. I think the most suspicious part would be that. That all the lights are on.
[33:10]
Karen Kilgarith
That's right.
[33:10]
Georgia Hardstark
You know what I mean?
[33:11]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. Like, nobody, especially in a 19 room mansion, you're like, sorry, nobody's in the greenhouse.
[33:18]
Georgia Hardstark
Nobody's in the brightest house on the block.
[33:22]
Karen Kilgarith
They're not having a party. So because of all this careful planning and because they were basically antisocial and reclusive, it took a full month for anybody to actually discover these bodies.
[33:39]
Georgia Hardstark
A month?
[33:40]
Karen Kilgarith
A full month. So the neighbors noticed that these lights were on day and night and that they were always on and that they started burning out, and that's when they started getting suspicious.
[33:52]
Georgia Hardstark
Ooh, that's creepy. Can you imagine seeing, like, one room is out and then the next room is out? Yeah.
[33:57]
Karen Kilgarith
And never comes back on. And no one's coming in or out of the house. So something super creepy's happening up there. But also, you don't wanna think about it because what could it be that would be that Weir.
[34:06]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[34:07]
Karen Kilgarith
But who does? This is the most cinematic, I think, of all the stories because Patty's drama teacher is the one who's like, I don't like the smell of this.
[34:17]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God.
[34:19]
Karen Kilgarith
His name was Edwin Iliano, and he thought it was weird that the entire family was gone that long. And also he. He had a terrible feeling because Patty once told him, if his family goes on vacation, my dad has killed us.
[34:33]
Georgia Hardstark
I knew she talked to him about something.
[34:35]
Karen Kilgarith
Yep, she said that she said it to him. So after, you know, 28 days. Oh. And he'd also met him once and thought he was super weird.
[34:44]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God.
[34:45]
Karen Kilgarith
So after 28 days, Edwin Iliano convinces his associate Barbara Sheridan to go to the house with him to check on Patty. And they drive up there, they try to look into some windows. And their being there makes the neighbors call the cops, because they see people finally on the property. And when the cops show up, Edwin explains to them it's oh. The neighbors, William and Shirley Cunnock are their names. They're the ones that call the police. And patrol officers George Zelznik and Charles Heller were the first to arrive. So Iliano explains what's going on. And the officers decide they're going to force open a window and go inside. And when they open that window, they're hit with the smell of death.
[35:31]
Georgia Hardstark
Thank you.
[35:32]
Karen Kilgarith
So I forgot. This might be my creepiest detail.
[35:35]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, good.
[35:36]
Karen Kilgarith
When they go into the house, the first thing they notice is that there's organ music playing loudly over the house intercom.
[35:46]
Georgia Hardstark
I'm gonna cry. I'm gonna cry because there's an intercom in this house. Hey. And because there's organ music.
[35:52]
Karen Kilgarith
So you're jealous of the intercom.
[35:53]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, because that's so cool. Yeah.
[35:54]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah.
[35:55]
Georgia Hardstark
And organ music is the creepiest thing.
[35:57]
Karen Kilgarith
I've ever heard John List set up. They kept calling it a recorder and all these articles that I read. When you do research, you realize everyone rips everybody off. It's hilarious.
[36:06]
Georgia Hardstark
Insane.
[36:07]
Karen Kilgarith
So calling something a recorder makes no sense. It sounds like it's the instrument children play in grammar school, which would be even creepier. Just a child playing the recorder really.
[36:17]
Georgia Hardstark
Loud or it's like. Oh, God, no. Okay, I was gonna go deep. Go on.
[36:22]
Karen Kilgarith
He had set up a thing that just played this music on a loop until you physically turned it off and then set it to play over the intercom.
[36:32]
Georgia Hardstark
What was like an old machine or something like that?
[36:34]
Karen Kilgarith
I guess so. I mean, they call a recorder maybe a recording device or like a reel to reel, perhaps?
[36:39]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, yeah, that sounds right.
[36:40]
Karen Kilgarith
Because it was 71.
[36:40]
Georgia Hardstark
Let's go with that.
[36:43]
Karen Kilgarith
So. Oh, I said two things. Organ music is good for ice skating and mass murdering. See, I'm trying too hard now. Need to keep it conversational. So upstairs in the study, they find a five page letter that Liszt had written to his pastor, Eugene Renwinkle. Sorry, I don't know. It's. It's like bad writing. Like, what should we name the old pastor of the Lutheran church? Eugene Renwinkle.
[37:11]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God, I love it.
[37:13]
Karen Kilgarith
So in that letter, he said he felt the 70s were a sinful time and that his family was beginning to succumb to temptation, especially his daughter, because of her interest in acting, which is an occupation that lists viewed as Being particularly corrupt and linked to Satan, which is true.
[37:29]
Georgia Hardstark
Fucking slayed them all.
[37:31]
Karen Kilgarith
What the. Yes. So the holy religious thing to do is kill everybody, John.
[37:37]
Georgia Hardstark
So it was like he thought it was like a mercy killing.
[37:39]
Karen Kilgarith
That's exactly right. He saw too much evil in the world. He had killed his family to save their souls.
[37:46]
Georgia Hardstark
That's very nice of you, you dick.
[37:49]
Karen Kilgarith
And also, how giving. Now, he said he didn't kill himself because.
[37:54]
Georgia Hardstark
Let's hear it.
[37:55]
Karen Kilgarith
He didn't kill himself because suicide is a mortal sin. That would definitely bar him from heaven. As opposed to murdering five people, where you're still in a gray area. That can be negotiated. What are you talking about?
[38:10]
Georgia Hardstark
Narcissism. Extreme narcissism. Sociopathy.
[38:14]
Karen Kilgarith
I definitely. Narcissism. I don't think the sociopath thing might not apply. Only because this is the one off.
[38:23]
Georgia Hardstark
People get mad at. People get mad.
[38:25]
Karen Kilgarith
It's a 5 off. Sorry.
[38:26]
Georgia Hardstark
That's 5 off. Okay. We're not saying all narcissists are murderers.
[38:30]
Karen Kilgarith
Right.
[38:31]
Georgia Hardstark
But however, this is an extreme case of narcissism.
[38:34]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah, it's a. It's a element in this personality disorder.
[38:38]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[38:40]
Karen Kilgarith
I'm a narcissist. I've never killed anybody. Except for in comedy. Boop. Okay. Later, a reporter who covered the trial described hearing this letter when it was read aloud in court. And he said, quote, I'll never forget the audible sigh of shock from the jury and spectators when the last line of lists letter was read, P.S. mother is in the hallway in the attic, third floor. She was too heavy to move.
[39:08]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God.
[39:09]
Karen Kilgarith
Dang. That's your mom? Yeah.
[39:11]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. It's like a moving. Like a moving box that you just, like, couldn't.
[39:15]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. Someone take care of that upstairs. Like, it's your mother. Do you think you might have had a slight problem with her?
[39:22]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Yeah.
[39:23]
Karen Kilgarith
Okay. So a nationwide manhunt is launched, but he's got a month lead time. He's. He's way ahead. Police investigated hundreds of leads without success. All reliable photographs of list had been destroyed. So it wasn't. I was creeped out. Turns out it was kind of like, super smart. Yeah.
[39:45]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, I didn't get. I didn't catch on to that.
[39:47]
Karen Kilgarith
I did not either. The family car was found at Kennedy Airport, but there was no evidence he had boarded a flight. He was gone and would remain gone for 18 years.
[39:57]
Georgia Hardstark
Wow.
[39:58]
Karen Kilgarith
Then on May 21, 1989. Forward, forward into the 80s. Yay. The murders were recounted on America's Most Wanted, which at the time had been on the air less than a year.
[40:10]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God.
[40:11]
Karen Kilgarith
And it featured an age progressed. Age progressed. Sorry. Age progressed clay bust sculpted by the forensic artist Frank Bender. And it turned out to bear an almost exact resemblance to Liszt's appearance.
[40:26]
Georgia Hardstark
Maybe I'm making this up, but I fucking remember seeing this.
[40:29]
Karen Kilgarith
No, you remember because I'm about to hold up a picture to you. I'm so excited. All right.
[40:36]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I was nine. So I was, like, old enough to remember this.
[40:38]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes. And this was. I remember it. I was 19. Oh, Grandma. Baby. Bender consulted a forensic psychologist and created a psychological profile of List. He looked at photographs of List parents and predicted what he would look like as he aged.
[40:54]
Georgia Hardstark
Holy shit.
[40:55]
Karen Kilgarith
He gave him a receding hairline and sagging jaws. Bender was particularly lauded for one final touch he added to his completed artwork. It was a pair of glasses. Bender believed List would not be vain enough to wear contact lenses. However, he said List would have worn a pair of glasses different from those he wore before the murders. He said they would be a pair with thick, dark frames. He and the psychologist theorized that Liszt would do this to hide. In a sense, he would want to disguise the fact that he was a failure and appear more important than he really was.
[41:26]
Georgia Hardstark
Holy shit.
[41:27]
Karen Kilgarith
So he put these big old glasses. Remember that, dude?
[41:31]
Georgia Hardstark
I remember that.
[41:32]
Karen Kilgarith
This is real John List. And this is that sculpture.
[41:36]
Georgia Hardstark
We fuck.
[41:37]
Karen Kilgarith
It's fucking like. Exactly.
[41:39]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God. You guys, look this up right now.
[41:40]
Karen Kilgarith
Look, Steven. Isn't that crazy? We'll put it on social media.
[41:46]
Georgia Hardstark
I'll put this on our insta.
[41:48]
Karen Kilgarith
But this Frank Bender nailed it. So literally, less than two weeks later, they got a ton of calls. But less than two weeks later, they find him in Virginia.
[41:56]
Georgia Hardstark
Wow.
[41:58]
Karen Kilgarith
And the hilarious part is in the court, John List reveals he was watching the show that night with his new wife. Wife. And he was quoted as saying, I was perspiring like anything. But his wife didn't recognize him.
[42:14]
Georgia Hardstark
No way. She had a. She had a veil of I can't.
[42:19]
Karen Kilgarith
Over her eyes, and I bet a little Vin Rose.
[42:23]
Georgia Hardstark
A little bottle of rose.
[42:25]
Karen Kilgarith
She had all kinds of different veils. Yeah.
[42:30]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[42:31]
Karen Kilgarith
Okay. So. So they go to trial. He explained that he had lost his job. He explained he was dealing with his wife's alcoholism. And trial reveal her untreated tertiary syphilis that she had contracted from her first husband, an army lieutenant who was killed in combat in Korea and concealed for 18 years. So. So his crazy wife that used to verbally abuse him and publicly. Oh, I maybe I skipped that part. But there's. Oh, no, it's in this part he says in court that she used to publicly insult him about.
[43:14]
Georgia Hardstark
Wait, did I guess that completely?
[43:16]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes, you absolutely guessed it.
[43:19]
Georgia Hardstark
I would have.
[43:19]
Karen Kilgarith
Blue.
[43:20]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, well, syphilis makes you go fucking bananas.
[43:25]
Karen Kilgarith
He List said by then the disease and her excessive alcohol consumption had, according to testimony, transformed her from an attractive young woman to an unkempt, paranoid recluse who frequently and often publicly disparaged List, comparing his sexual skills unfavorably to those of her first husband, the one who gave her syphilis.
[43:48]
Georgia Hardstark
Syphilis. Jesus, that scared the shit out of me.
[43:50]
Karen Kilgarith
So here's me playing the prosecuting attorney. Mr. Liz, can you explain how your wife often disparages your sexual skills in public if she's a recluse? No more questions, your honor. And I turn around, slam my blazer down onto the chair. All right, so basically, John List makes all these excuses in court. He's like, I have PTSD from being in the army. I. What else do you say? I. Oh, wait, a.
[44:25]
Georgia Hardstark
Smoker.
[44:26]
Karen Kilgarith
He smoker. It was my wife. My kids were going crazy. I was abused as a child. My father always told me that you had to provide for your family and that you had to do this and you had to do that. And I wasn't doing anything, any of those things because I lost my job, blah, blah, blah. So a court appointed psychiatrist testified List suffered from obsessive compulsive personality disorder. And he only saw two solutions to a situation. Accept welfare or kill his family and send them to heaven. And welfare was unacceptable because it would expose him and his family to ridicule and violate his authoritarian father's teachings. Blah, blah, blah. So this is a common thing with family annihilators. They say that there are two types and one is a livid, coercive killer. And those are the ones that are usually abusive. And they kill the family when the family tries to run away from them. So it's years of abuse, years of abuse, the family tries to escape.
[45:27]
Georgia Hardstark
And then it's like, we see those all the time.
[45:29]
Karen Kilgarith
I'll teach you all. Yes, but the other kind is the civil reputable killer, and they're motivated by a perverse form of altruism. So it's his way of rescuing the family from shame and hardship. And in his obsessive compulsive narcissism, John List didn't choose to fix his own problems, but instead he fixated on the family problems and the problems of society. 81% of family annihilators kill themselves after killing their family. So that's when, in my opinion, John List's argument of this I was doing the best for the family breaks down because he went on to live a happy life for 19 years in Colorado. And what. Sorry, the part that I was skipping over is he basically told everybody what happened was the day after the murders, he took the train from New Jersey to Michigan and then from Michigan to Colorado. He settled in Denver. He took an accounting job as Robert Peter Bob Clark. And that's subtle. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of plain, but then also exciting. Yeah, exciting in a way.
[46:40]
Georgia Hardstark
Pick one of those names.
[46:42]
Karen Kilgarith
He was the controller at a paper box manufacturer, Denver. He was. They said controller. I want to say comptroller.
[46:50]
Georgia Hardstark
You know what? It's our story to tell.
[46:52]
Karen Kilgarith
That's right. And then what he do, he joined the Lutheran congregation, ran a carpool for shut in church members, and met an army PX clerk named Loris Miller and married her in 1980.
[47:04]
Georgia Hardstark
It's almost like he's trying to prove to himself that he's actually a good person. It was just circumstantial.
[47:10]
Karen Kilgarith
It was them.
[47:11]
Georgia Hardstark
Yep.
[47:11]
Karen Kilgarith
His wife, his alcoholic, syphilitic wife, his hippie daughter, his rebellious children. They ruined it for him.
[47:20]
Georgia Hardstark
I feel like in the 50s that might have worked better than in the 70s and 80s, that excuse. Or like, especially the 80s, but like, that came to an end, it seems like.
[47:33]
Karen Kilgarith
Right. Because it. Well, that was also like the oldest version of like, there's only a father, that's the breadwinner, it's never the mother, and no one gets divorced. And this is the. The American dream. You have to have a house and two kids. All that bullshit. Everyone got sold.
[47:48]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[47:49]
Karen Kilgarith
That everyone kind of had to swallow whole, basically. Also, John, listen, was abused as a child, which is a very common thing in family annihilators, because they get. They feel powerless. They felt powerless as children. So when they have families, they're exerting power over the family to give them that power they have now.
[48:12]
Georgia Hardstark
They're in charge.
[48:13]
Karen Kilgarith
Exactly. And then when that doesn't work, they don't know how to deal with it.
[48:16]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, man. When the 70s come and the daughter's like, I'm gonna go crazy.
[48:20]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. When there's a cultural revolution throughout the country and your daughter's like, I think I might want to act.
[48:26]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[48:26]
Karen Kilgarith
Instead of being a devout Lutheran.
[48:28]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[48:31]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. So they. They're trying to create the. The life they never had that they fantasize of as abused children.
[48:37]
Georgia Hardstark
Right.
[48:37]
Karen Kilgarith
And Then when that goes to, they're just like, well, we're starting over.
[48:41]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, essentially. Yeah.
[48:45]
Karen Kilgarith
I guess the. This has a great twist ending. So that he was convicted of five counts of murder. And the judge said, John Emil List is without remorse and without honor. After 18 years, five months and 22 days, it's now time for the voices of Helen, Alma, Patrick, Patricia, Frederick, and John F. List to rise from the grave.
[49:16]
Georgia Hardstark
That's beautiful.
[49:16]
Karen Kilgarith
And he imposed a sentence of five terms of life imprisonment to be served consecutively. It was the maximum penalty. And List died of pneumonia in prison on March 21, 2008. And his body was not claimed because. Who's going to claim it?
[49:34]
Georgia Hardstark
He lived for a long time.
[49:35]
Karen Kilgarith
He really did. The second wife didn't return the call, and the morgue was like, oh, we have your.
[49:41]
Georgia Hardstark
She's like, that ain't my.
[49:42]
Karen Kilgarith
Hello. But eventually someone took him back, and he was buried next to his mother in Michigan.
[49:48]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, she's like, fuck this guy.
[49:50]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah, get out of here.
[49:51]
Georgia Hardstark
He shot me in the fucking face and then wouldn't even carry me to the ballroom.
[49:55]
Karen Kilgarith
But are you ready for this twist.
[49:56]
Georgia Hardstark
Ending that I. Oh, that's not it. Yeah, this is it.
[49:59]
Karen Kilgarith
So somebody burnt down Breeze Knoll. The Great. The great mansion. Some that no one's ever even looked into who might have done it. Was it a ghost did it? Could have been a guy ghost. Could have been a ghost fire. There's a New Jersey ghost fire. But destroyed, along with the home was the ballroom stained glass skylight, which was a signed Tiffany original worth at least $100,000 at the time, which would have covered his expenses. It was right there the whole time in that room you didn't go in because you couldn't deal with it.
[50:43]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh. Oh, my God. That's gonna be someone's new ringtone.
[50:47]
Karen Kilgarith
By the way. That's John. That's John List, everybody. Oh, also because he disappeared in 71. And D.B.
[50:56]
Georgia Hardstark
Cooper.
[50:57]
Karen Kilgarith
D.B. cooper. They thought he was D.B. cooper for a while because he kind.
[51:00]
Georgia Hardstark
Of looks like that sketch.
[51:01]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. Mr. Vig. And he. D.B. cooper sold $200,000, which was kind of around. They figured around how much John List owed.
[51:11]
Georgia Hardstark
Are they sure it wasn't him?
[51:13]
Karen Kilgarith
John List vehemently denied it from jail. That's how boring this guy is.
[51:19]
Georgia Hardstark
No, I'm not.
[51:20]
Karen Kilgarith
No, I insist. I'm not D.B. cooper. Well, it could have been cool if you were.
[51:24]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, but maybe he doesn't. I bet it was him.
[51:27]
Karen Kilgarith
No, he would. I don't think this guy would have jumped out of a plane. He was too scared to tell his wife he got fired.
[51:32]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay.
[51:33]
Karen Kilgarith
You know, okay.
[51:34]
Georgia Hardstark
Maybe he thought. I don't know. Do Lutherans like Jesus? Maybe he thought Jesus would help out.
[51:40]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah, Jesus did help out. He gave him a beautiful skylight. A Tiffany skylight. The Lord said it was right there all along.
[51:47]
Georgia Hardstark
You know, that whoever burnt that house down is fucking bummed they didn't know that, too.
[51:50]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah, there was some real estate agent that ran up at the. At the last.
[51:54]
Georgia Hardstark
What are you doing? At least get the thing you ghosts in your arson. Okay, we're back.
[52:04]
Casey O'Brien
Remember when Conan O'Brien guested on our show and told us this story like.
[52:08]
Karen Kilgarith
We had never heard it before?
[52:10]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. But also, I mean, what. Why would he, you know, have ever listened to this podcast? But also that he was in the courtroom when it. When John listed.
[52:20]
Casey O'Brien
Oh, my God.
[52:21]
Georgia Hardstark
It's just.
[52:22]
Casey O'Brien
He's a super gigantic murderino. But he also was like. The assumption was we didn't know what.
[52:27]
Karen Kilgarith
He was talking about. It's just like.
[52:28]
Georgia Hardstark
It was a little like, you've maybe never heard of this one. And it's like trying to.
[52:33]
Casey O'Brien
Either that or just, I'm fucking telling this story. And it's like, oh, I have some details, too.
[52:38]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay, you're right.
[52:39]
Karen Kilgarith
You're right.
[52:40]
Casey O'Brien
One of which, God damn. I think about it literally once a week is that John List did all of that because he was broke. And meanwhile, in that mansion that he felt pressured to buy, there was a Tiffany flash ceiling.
[52:56]
Georgia Hardstark
It was the glass.
[52:57]
Karen Kilgarith
Glass ceiling like a skylight.
[52:59]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[52:59]
Casey O'Brien
Or was it a. A light fixture? I can't remember. But either way, it was worth over $100,000. Enough to get him out of debt.
[53:08]
Georgia Hardstark
Let me throw this in there.
[53:10]
Casey O'Brien
Okay.
[53:10]
Georgia Hardstark
Do you think. Aka I bet he still would have found something later to kill them all for. He would have sold that skylight or light thing, used 100 grand. He still would have killed them on something else.
[53:24]
Casey O'Brien
I feel like a family annihilator. The problem isn't actually debt. You're right.
[53:30]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes.
[53:30]
Georgia Hardstark
It's not getting out of debt, and everything's fine and everyone's happy. He wanted to, and he found a way to do it.
[53:35]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah.
[53:36]
Casey O'Brien
There wasn't a magic. A magic key that was gonna solve it. And also just that the whole topic of family annihilators, it's so intense. It's so way out there.
[53:46]
Karen Kilgarith
It's just.
[53:47]
Casey O'Brien
And it's crazy because now those stories are coming up more and more.
[53:51]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. And this. He specifically. This story is just so Cold and calculated, the whole. Cutting the face out of his face, out of the pictures and just. I mean, it's just so sick. Are there any updates? I know he's dead, but anything more, he is here.
[54:08]
Casey O'Brien
This is what's important. I've learned what a comptroller is. Webster's Dictionary defines a comptroller as a management level professional who oversees financial reporting and accounting. Also, while he was on the run, John took a job as a controller, which we also didn't understand or care about in the original story. Turns out controllers work for private companies doing the exact same thing. Comptrollers work for governments and nonprofits doing that job. So it turns out a man whose financial irresponsibility led him to murder his entire family actually worked in accounting. That was supposed to be his specialty.
[54:45]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, you can't do anything right.
[54:48]
Casey O'Brien
The irony. The irony is everywhere with this John List story. Also, the John List story is the America's most wanted element that makes it such a legendary true crime story.
[54:58]
Georgia Hardstark
Totally. And that his fucking new wife was sitting next to him and didn't recognize him or just, you know, maybe something in her head did. But it's like a movie. Can you imagine?
[55:08]
Casey O'Brien
Jesus, can you imagine? This is why Conan loved the story so much. Okay, it's time for Georgia's story that she does on this episode about the death of Warina Wright.
[55:26]
Georgia Hardstark
All right, all right, what's yours? So I have one that I learned about recently because it happened recently. And we're going to. Karen, we're going to do a little play.
[55:35]
Karen Kilgarith
Okay.
[55:36]
Georgia Hardstark
This whole. This theme. What is this theme? Drama. Drama teachers. All right.
[55:42]
Karen Kilgarith
You mean for this episode? Yeah, yeah, the drama teachers episode.
[55:45]
Georgia Hardstark
All right, so Warina Wright, W A R R I E N A. Warrina Wright was 26, from New Zealand, and she went to Queensland, Australia on July 29, 2014, to celebrate a friend's wedding. Checks into a Motel on August 6, and then on the following day is like, let's see who's on Tinder. Do you know this one?
[56:12]
Karen Kilgarith
No.
[56:12]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay, so she. Fucking Tinder's beautiful girl. She looks like a little bit. A little gothy, but not, you know, she's hot. So she finds Gable, Toasties, Tinder. He's this like hot ladies, man. They meet up outside of a bar on the 6th. I just want to say, by the next morning, Warina will be dead after falling from his gable's 14th floor balcony. That's how this goes.
[56:47]
Karen Kilgarith
That's not good.
[56:48]
Georgia Hardstark
Back to that night. By 9pm, they're in his apartment on the 14th floor, this beautiful building. So somehow Gable, which is a great name, isn't it? What's his first name?
[57:02]
Karen Kilgarith
First name? I don't know.
[57:04]
Georgia Hardstark
I like it. For some reason, he starts recording what's going on inside with a voice recorder. Police somehow extracted it from, like, mobile phones that were found. I think it was tried. They tried to delete. He tried to delete it. It didn't happen. They were able to get it. So there's a whole. There's a whole conversation that's recorded, and we're gonna act it out. Yeah. So I'm gonna read, but I. Yeah, okay. I'm gonna read. I highlighted your parts.
[57:36]
Casey O'Brien
Okay.
[57:36]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, thank you, Warina. I'm Gable, but let me read it to you also.
[57:42]
Karen Kilgarith
Okay.
[57:43]
Georgia Hardstark
So at 1am the sound recorder started and it's later ceased. But the recording starts. Music's heard, and 20 seconds into the recording, the man states, Fuck me. At 1:02am the man asks the female to chill and have a drink. And she says she is.
[58:04]
Karen Kilgarith
I'm a psycho drunk and do not test me.
[58:07]
Georgia Hardstark
Then at 105, between 105 and 108, the pair talk about death. The male says, throw me off the balcony. And that's it. This is it. Boom. Then at 1:16am there's laughing. Sounds are heard and sounds of hitting are heard as well, but the music continues to play in the background. And that was scary.
[58:30]
Karen Kilgarith
As if on cue.
[58:31]
Georgia Hardstark
And there are soft sounds of groaning. Okay. At 1:29am the male says, I don't like getting beaten up. At 1:36am the argument begins when the female says she's leaving and can't find her iPhone.
[58:45]
Karen Kilgarith
She says, are you going to fucking untie me? Because I will fucking destroy your job.
[58:52]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God. And then Vince unlocked the door and scared the ever loving cannibal episode.
[59:00]
Karen Kilgarith
Same thing happened when you were talking about cannibals.
[59:03]
Georgia Hardstark
Hi, baby. Oh, man. Elvis in April. Okay, you're going to untime me, blah, blah, blah. So at 1:38, the man said, I should have never given you so much to drink. I thought we were gonna have fun. And then he asks her to calm down. At 1:41am the man asks the female to stay, but says, you're just a bit violent. He offers to cook some food, and the conversation calms down. At 1:53am Drinks are more. Drinks are poured. Stop drinking, you guys.
[59:39]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. What? You already decided the drinking's bad?
[59:42]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. At 2am, the occupant of the apartment below is Woken up by the noise. At 2:10am the audio recording. In the audio recording, the male tells the female to relax and threatens to kick her arse ass. At 2:11am there's sounds of a struggle. A minute later, the sounds of rocks possibly being thrown in the apartment is heard. At 2:14, the man says, that's enough. You've worn out your welcome, you have to leave. The female, out of breath, says, okay. At 2:15am the man says, I thought you were kidding and I have taken enough. This is fucking bullshit. You're lucky I haven't chucked you off my balcony, you goddamn psycho little bitch. At 2:16am the female, who is breathing heavily, accuses him of being sexist and then says, lay off. To which the male replies, seriously, what? At 2:17am the man says, you're a goddamn psycho. I'm going to let you go. I'm going to walk you out of this apartment just the way you are. You are not going to collect any of your belongings. You are just going to walk out and I'm going to slam the door. Understand? If you try and pull anything, I'll knock you out. Do you understand? The female says, I'm so sorry. I don't care. Okay, so the fall. At 2:17am sounds of struggling and heavy breathing are heard. The man says, let go of it. Let go, let go, let go. At 2:18, the first choking sounds are heard. Breathing slows. Male let it go. Sounds of a metallic object dropping is heard. At 2:20am, a door unlocks and the female states, no. The sound of glass, of a glass door possibly being hit. 2:20. The man says, who the fuck do you think you are? Hey. The female says, no, no, no, no.
[61:25]
Karen Kilgarith
No, no, no, no, no.
[61:27]
Georgia Hardstark
The male says, you tried to kill me, huh? Well why did you try and hit me with that? Shut your filthy mouth. The female, I'm not gonna scream.
[61:35]
Karen Kilgarith
Screams now, but she's screaming, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[61:37]
Georgia Hardstark
The man says, it's all on recording. You know it's all being recorded. The female, lot more no's. Just let me go home. The male says, I would, but you've been a bad girl. And then the sounds are heard of a door slamming shut. A police at this point allege that he left her out on the balcony. Missed right on the balcony. The female says, just let me go home.
[61:59]
Karen Kilgarith
Just let me go home.
[62:00]
Georgia Hardstark
At 2:21am, a female's final words are hers.
[62:03]
Karen Kilgarith
Just let me go home.
[62:04]
Georgia Hardstark
Faint screaming is heard. You look, you're looking at me like I'm gonna.
[62:08]
Karen Kilgarith
It's horrible.
[62:08]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay, so put that down. So the occupant in the apartment below his hears a female repeatedly shouting, no. And then sees two legs dangling down. So what's going on right now is either she's crazy and drunk and jumping, or she's terrified of this person and trying to get to the balcony below.
[62:34]
Casey O'Brien
Yeah.
[62:35]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. So the. The witness says, in a matter of seconds, I saw the person fall from the balcony above mine. At 2:21, a call is placed from Gable's phone to his lawyer. The call doesn't connect. At 2:23, a triple O, which I'm guessing is 911, call is placed by the woman in the apartment below. Police arrive at the scene, and at the same time, the fob key to his apartment is activated. Closed caption Cameras capture a male believed to be Gable approaching the front entrance of the apartment. And he walks back to the elevator and rides it to the basement. At 2:29, sounds of walking are heard in the audio recording, which is still going from earlier in the night. So he has the phone or whatever he's using to record what's going on with him or in the apartment with him.
[63:24]
Karen Kilgarith
With him.
[63:25]
Georgia Hardstark
He's like, in the. In the.
[63:26]
Karen Kilgarith
So sorry. He's recording this entire evening.
[63:29]
Georgia Hardstark
He's recording the whole thing. And people said he might have done it because he was, like, a creepy pervert and, like, to record these things, or he took home a lot of women, and this is a way to, like, assure that nothing.
[63:40]
Casey O'Brien
Oh.
[63:41]
Georgia Hardstark
You know, just to have it if they go crazy or if. Yeah, either way, it's sketchy.
[63:46]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah.
[63:47]
Georgia Hardstark
3:10Am, he orders a pizza.
[63:51]
Karen Kilgarith
What?
[63:52]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, he says, a pizza of pizza supreme, please. He orders a fucking slice of pizza. At 3:23am a call is placed to his father. He says, hello, Dad. I might have gotten a bit of a situation. I met a girl for a date. She started getting aggressive. We kept drinking, and I think she thought it was like, a joke. And she kept beating me up because she was really drunk. And I forced her out on the balcony, and I think she might have jumped off. And the dad says, oh, no. Are you okay?
[64:30]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah.
[64:31]
Georgia Hardstark
So there's a million cops walking around. I'm fucked up. I don't know what to do. He says, I don't know. I like. I tackled her on my floor inside the building, and I never forced her over the edge. So the dad picks him up, and eventually he's arrested. And so, yeah, so he's claiming he's innocent. She Jumped. He has nothing to do with it. He didn't push her over the edge. It's not murder. He's set for trial on August, on October 13, 2016. But he's free right now. He's out on bond and he can't stop talking. He's posting shit on like bodybuilders dot com.
[65:17]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, no, he's just.
[65:19]
Georgia Hardstark
He doesn't understand why people are blamed. He. He has to be somewhat narcissistic.
[65:25]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. Oh, you mean like he needs to say his. What his side of it is?
[65:29]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, but he's also saying things about how many women he's been with and he's never hurt them. So he's like bragging about that, how nice his apartment was, how well he does saying it's a witch hunt. But they, but prosecutors think he could be convicted for murder because she was reportedly in fear of her life and was trying to flee him to the.
[65:52]
Karen Kilgarith
Apartment below those neighbors.
[65:53]
Georgia Hardstark
The prosecutors say that.
[65:55]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, okay.
[65:55]
Georgia Hardstark
And I'm really interested. I really like, not like, but I'm really interested in murder by suicide. I think it's really interesting. Like there's that one case of. There was the road rage incident on a bridge in Detroit and this man was coming at the woman who had rear ended him and she jumped off the bridge to get away from him.
[66:17]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. That was actually a very famous, like one of the earliest law and orders.
[66:21]
Georgia Hardstark
Really.
[66:21]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes.
[66:22]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, wow.
[66:23]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah.
[66:23]
Georgia Hardstark
Well. And he was convicted of murder or maybe manslaughter because she just didn't know.
[66:28]
Karen Kilgarith
Where else to go. It was just like trying to get away.
[66:30]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[66:31]
Karen Kilgarith
But also the idea of recording an entire evening just to be sure in and of itself is suspicious to me.
[66:41]
Georgia Hardstark
Maybe.
[66:41]
Karen Kilgarith
What do you need to be sure of? That you have been in a position where this has been a problem for you.
[66:47]
Georgia Hardstark
Or maybe she just already was being a little crazy.
[66:49]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, so he started the recording.
[66:51]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Not to. I'm not victim blaming. They were clearly very drunk. Maybe he liked to record his.
[66:58]
Karen Kilgarith
His sex.
[67:00]
Georgia Hardstark
Sex.
[67:02]
Karen Kilgarith
But yeah, you're right. I mean like she, the things that she's doing don't make a lot of sense. It's not, it's not like it's. It doesn't seem like she's the only victim at the beginning.
[67:13]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, it sounds from what he's saying. But here's the thing. He's the only one who knows it's being recorded. So what he's saying about her attacking him is very specific. And someone on like a Reddit said or maybe on the Facebook Page said when my boyfriend was beating me up, he'd say. He'd yell, stop it. What are you doing to me? Why are you doing this? To, like, get the neighbors to think that she was doing something to him or just to fuck with her in her mind.
[67:43]
Karen Kilgarith
So it could be that.
[67:45]
Georgia Hardstark
It could just be in what it sounds like happened from when I read the transcript, which I fucking stayed up all night reading it. It was like, it's so crazy is, you know, they were having rough sex. Maybe she wasn't completely coherent. She comes to and is freaked out by it and is trying to get out, but doesn't know how. And he's telling her to calm down because he tells her to calm down a couple. I think at one point she realized what was happening and picked something up to throw at him. And he gets so angry at that because you can hear him say, like, you've been a bad girl. She's trying to defend herself. He's like, I'm gonna have to lock you out on the balcony to protect myself. But the whole time she's been the victim and she's freaking the fuck out and she's drunk and fucked up, and so she thinks the best option is to. To go over the side of the edge and get to the balcony below, which.
[68:39]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah, that's like something from a movie that's like. Yeah, it only works when stunt men do it.
[68:44]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Anyone in their right mind would never try that. And so she clearly wasn't in her right mind.
[68:49]
Karen Kilgarith
And is there proof that we know that she. If she drank. Like, I know people who have almost, like, allergic to alcohol where they have one drink and they're just, like, legless and out of their minds.
[68:59]
Georgia Hardstark
No, I don't know. Know.
[69:00]
Karen Kilgarith
I don't know. It's not like that.
[69:02]
Georgia Hardstark
I don't know what her blood alcohol level was. I don't know if they tested her for drugs. Maybe they're keeping all of that for the trial.
[69:07]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah, it sounds like that's the story he's trying to push, though, with this recording.
[69:11]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[69:12]
Karen Kilgarith
Is like, you've gone crazy.
[69:14]
Georgia Hardstark
But he's feeding her alcohol too.
[69:16]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah.
[69:17]
Georgia Hardstark
So even if it's like, well, look how drunk she was. I mean, his own recording is. Is gonna. Is gonna be the thing that convicts him. I feel like.
[69:27]
Karen Kilgarith
Well, it's super weird to. I can't imagine if something terrible happened at my house. Like, horrifying, like a person committed suicide. I wouldn't be ordering pizza an hour later.
[69:43]
Georgia Hardstark
No. I mean, I wonder if he was so Fucked up and didn't know what's going on. It would be almost be like he would go lay down or something or go hide or, you know, like. I don't think.
[69:53]
Karen Kilgarith
But also, if you. I mean, this also. It just immediately makes me think of the Night of. Because the Night of presents you the story where you completely.
[70:03]
Georgia Hardstark
I haven't watched it. I have only watched the first episode.
[70:05]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, okay. But I mean, just in general, you empathize with the person that they put in front of you because that's the story you're getting.
[70:11]
Georgia Hardstark
Right.
[70:12]
Karen Kilgarith
Which is what happens a lot of the time is, is whoever gets a hold of that narrative, then you go, oh, yeah, yeah. No, he would never do that. He's so nice. Nice. Or whatever. Story.
[70:22]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. And what people present you and then.
[70:25]
Karen Kilgarith
The media and then the shit that they talk about. The other person.
[70:28]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[70:29]
Karen Kilgarith
So in a way, not to defend him. I know. I have no idea what's going on in this one. This is crazy, isn't it? But it makes sense then, that if he's kind of out on his own, he's trying to control the narrative by tweeting things and posting on bodybuilders.com or whatever you said. I mean, like, then he's. That's a person that's just scrambling and making mistakes.
[70:51]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. I feel like the harder you try to defend yourself on social media, the worse you seem and the more people can pick it apart.
[70:58]
Karen Kilgarith
Yes, for sure.
[70:59]
Georgia Hardstark
Because, I mean, you know, websleuths have got. Have gotten a hold of this. The website web sleuths have gotten a hold of this and are, like, picking it apart, and they think there's been some comments by fake accounts he's made that just know too much about the. The details. The details. Oh, yeah. It's like he's his own worst enemy.
[71:21]
Karen Kilgarith
Well, and also, he's. He's paying a lot of attention to this. The process of this.
[71:27]
Georgia Hardstark
Right.
[71:28]
Karen Kilgarith
Which is very strange.
[71:29]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. It's gonna be a hard one. I feel like it's gonna be a hard one.
[71:32]
Karen Kilgarith
So sorry.
[71:33]
Georgia Hardstark
This just happened days ago, 2014. Oh.
[71:36]
Casey O'Brien
Oh, okay.
[71:37]
Georgia Hardstark
But he's being. I. You know, it's Australia, so I don't know. I feel like he's being indicted or there's going to be a trial to indict him on the. On in October.
[71:46]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, okay. Wow.
[71:47]
Georgia Hardstark
From what I can tell from Australian legal ease. Is that up?
[71:54]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah.
[71:56]
Georgia Hardstark
Poor. The poor girl. But this whole situation. Guys don't meet strangers on Tinder. Not. Oh, man. I'm gonna get in trouble for slut shaming.
[72:05]
Karen Kilgarith
That's not slut shaming.
[72:06]
Georgia Hardstark
But it's so crazy that people just like.
[72:07]
Karen Kilgarith
Like, it's just dating, though. Yeah, but I mean, like, how about the girl? That girl in Santa Monica that knew the guy for a year and roofied or drank. I mean, bad things happen to people. It just happens.
[72:19]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, you're right.
[72:21]
Karen Kilgarith
But this seems weird because you're the idea that a person is recording an entire evening and their foreknowledge of that recording and not telling the other person. There's a manipulation on the surface of that.
[72:37]
Georgia Hardstark
That's suspicious for sure.
[72:40]
Karen Kilgarith
And to me, it's suspicious to say, I record this just in case something happens and I need to defend myself. Where it's like. But that's not an accurate defense because we can't see what's actually happening. It's just your playlet.
[72:53]
Georgia Hardstark
It's also weird at the very end when he's like, I've been recording that. Like, he uses it to throw it in her face somehow. Almost like.
[73:00]
Karen Kilgarith
Like, you can't prove anything.
[73:02]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, you can't prove anything. Or like, why would he use that against her if he, you know, if nothing had happened that he could call the cops for or press charges for?
[73:13]
Karen Kilgarith
Well, also, he never called the cops, right?
[73:15]
Georgia Hardstark
No. And he didn't let her go either. Like, at one point she was like, I'm getting my. And I'm leaving. Where's my phone? And he like, stopped her from leaving.
[73:22]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah.
[73:24]
Georgia Hardstark
So she was freaked out and wanted to leave too. Both of them.
[73:28]
Karen Kilgarith
You know, if you had a person, this just. We'll throw this out there. If you had a person in your house you met on a Tinder date, so you don't know them, you guys are drinking, they get a little crazy. You're the guy, so they. It's a girl that tries to beat you up. So it's like painful, irritating, not. Not life threatening you. When they want to go, what would be the. Why? Why would you keep them there?
[73:52]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[73:53]
Karen Kilgarith
Like, this is your crazy. If you're keeping a crazy person in your apartment, quote unquote. So crazy.
[73:59]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[74:00]
Karen Kilgarith
That you know, you're making more problems.
[74:02]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[74:02]
Karen Kilgarith
Like when. If they. You just go. Yeah, get out.
[74:04]
Georgia Hardstark
What are you trying to get out of the situation? If you want to keep the person.
[74:07]
Karen Kilgarith
Who'S crazy and abusive toward you.
[74:10]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Around there, you're getting something out of it or it's not as it seems.
[74:15]
Karen Kilgarith
Right. Well, there's a third option that.
[74:19]
Georgia Hardstark
I mean abusive people, you know, it's the gaslighting technique where abusive people are like, why are you being so crazy? Like, this isn't that big of a deal.
[74:26]
Karen Kilgarith
Right.
[74:28]
Georgia Hardstark
And. And the people who. That works on it. It works very well.
[74:33]
Karen Kilgarith
Well. And also you would get violent if you were like, say, tied up against your will or woke up, whatever this scenario was, where you would try your best to like, what are, what are the rocks that got thrown indoors?
[74:45]
Georgia Hardstark
I don't know what the rocks are. I wonder if. I mean, I wonder if she was just almost incapacitated, almost incoherent. You know what I mean? Where it's like, you're not yet. You're just like, you're aware that you're in a situation that's not good because she's not forming complete sentences most of the time.
[75:02]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah. She's just saying. She's reacting, Right? That's right. That's crazy.
[75:09]
Georgia Hardstark
I know. And then you have to assume she was naked on the balcony too.
[75:14]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, really?
[75:15]
Georgia Hardstark
I think so. She's definitely barefoot, but I don't. I'm not sure if she's naked.
[75:22]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, okay.
[75:22]
Georgia Hardstark
So check that out.
[75:23]
Karen Kilgarith
I didn't, I didn't think.
[75:24]
Georgia Hardstark
Facts and things. Well, yeah, that's tough, right?
[75:30]
Karen Kilgarith
Yeah.
[75:30]
Georgia Hardstark
I've been thinking about that one for a lot. For a long time. Are you okay?
[75:34]
Karen Kilgarith
I mean. No, no, just those ones just make me keep on thinking about it.
[75:38]
Georgia Hardstark
I know.
[75:39]
Karen Kilgarith
The idea of recording an evening is super insane to me.
[75:45]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[75:46]
Karen Kilgarith
And also just like this weird day and age that we live in where, like, you could be recorded at any time.
[75:51]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
[75:52]
Karen Kilgarith
Like right now.
[75:53]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, shit.
[75:54]
Karen Kilgarith
Oh, my God.
[75:54]
Georgia Hardstark
Wait, what are these microphones doing in our faces?
[76:00]
Karen Kilgarith
Okay, we're back. Yeah.
[76:03]
Casey O'Brien
This one is so rough. Are there any case updates on this?
[76:06]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, I have a couple case updates. After a week long trial In October of 2016, a Supreme Court jury in Brisbane acquitted Gable Totsi of both murder and manslaughter charges in the death of Orina Wright. So we. I had done the story before it had even gone to trial, and he was acquitted. And since then, Totsi has been going by a different name. And his name has popped up in the news a few times since, usually tied to stories about his dating life or drinking habits and just like fuel his notoriety. And there's just some, you know, he gets into trouble. It seems like it's just, I want to know what really happened and I don't know if we ever will that night, you know, and so it's hard to be like, he got acquitted so you want to be like, you don't want to talk on this person because what if he's not?
[76:59]
Casey O'Brien
What if he's innocent? What if this whole thing was this terrible.
[77:02]
Georgia Hardstark
Right.
[77:03]
Casey O'Brien
Happenstance that was. I mean, all of it is just so baffling.
[77:08]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. And it's just like such a sad, tragic, unnecessary death of this young woman. And that's really what it comes down to.
[77:14]
Casey O'Brien
Yeah, that's right. That's right. So let's talk about the.
[77:19]
Karen Kilgarith
The new title.
[77:19]
Casey O'Brien
Because incredibly, we titled this 29 German spelling of 9, but I bet I made that up.
[77:26]
Georgia Hardstark
I don't remember. But I don't think that would be something you suggested.
[77:31]
Casey O'Brien
I really don't think I would have. But who's to say, you know, I mean, it's.
[77:35]
Karen Kilgarith
Who's to say?
[77:36]
Georgia Hardstark
Literally.
[77:37]
Casey O'Brien
But also, it's just kind of like we're just trying to get this stuff done.
[77:41]
Georgia Hardstark
I wonder how much longer it is until we stop fucking naming things after numbers. It's got to be pretty close. If we're 29 is the fucking is all we got, right?
[77:51]
Casey O'Brien
That we just were like, we need a different gimmick here, please.
[77:54]
Georgia Hardstark
All right, so if we were naming the episode today based on things we said in the episode, we could call it Happy Clap, which I love because that's what Stephen does. When Karen talks about Nico Case, which is the cutest. I see Steven sitting cross legged on the floor doing his da da da da da Happy Clap.
[78:12]
Casey O'Brien
His quiet sound guy, Happy Clap.
[78:14]
Karen Kilgarith
Also all the cookies, which is what Georgia says.
[78:17]
Casey O'Brien
Elvis is with Vince because Vince gives him all the cookies.
[78:20]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. That's when we had to make Vince and the cats go in a different room. Go in the one bedroom of my one bedroom apartment when we were recording. And he like couldn't make a noise or come out or do anything.
[78:31]
Casey O'Brien
Yeah, he was like. And also we were out there for an hour and 45 minutes most of the time.
[78:36]
Georgia Hardstark
We really were. And once in a while I'd scream, vince, what was the name of that movie? Oh, that cute little apartment.
[78:44]
Casey O'Brien
And prayers up to Vince Averill once again for being there from day one.
[78:50]
Georgia Hardstark
Still doing it.
[78:51]
Casey O'Brien
Still. Still putting in his hours.
[78:53]
Georgia Hardstark
He really is. Thank you guys for listening to this episode of Rewind and for sticking with us and still being here.
[78:59]
Casey O'Brien
Yes, we rewind every Wednesday. So come back and we'll be doing episode 30 next week.
[79:04]
Georgia Hardstark
That's right.
[79:05]
Casey O'Brien
And until then, stay sexy and don't get murdered.
[79:09]
Georgia Hardstark
Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?