Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 33: What About Mimi?

Summary

Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 33: What About Mimi?

Release Date: February 19, 2025

In this special "Rewind" episode of My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark, the hosts delve back into one of their earlier episodes, Episode 33: What About Mimi? Released on September 8, 2016, this episode holds significant emotional weight as it revisits the enduring Jacob Wetterling case and explores broader themes of justice, forensic science, and personal resilience.

---

I. Introduction to Rewind Episode

Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark open the episode with enthusiasm, welcoming listeners to their "Rewind" series where they revisit past episodes with fresh insights and updates. They set the stage by highlighting the importance of their long-standing interest in true crime and the enduring impact of their discussions over the years.

Karen (02:27): "A rewind. It's Wednesday and that means we're recapping one of our old shows with all new commentary, all new updates..."

II. Revisiting Episode 33: Jacob Wetterling Case

The core of the discussion centers on the Jacob Wetterling case, a chilling abduction from 1989 that remained unsolved for decades. Karen and Georgia recount the grim details of the kidnapping, emphasizing the traumatic impact on Wetterling's family.

Karen (04:31): "He was kidnapped. It was him, his brother, and a friend. They were riding their bikes to the store and a guy held them at gunpoint and told the other two to run away and took Jacob."

III. "Who Took Johnny?" Documentary Insights

Georgia introduces the Netflix documentary "Who Took Johnny?", which delves deeper into the complexities of the Wetterling case. The hosts express their struggles with the documentary's dark and intricate narrative, highlighting the remarkable resilience of Jacob's mother, who became a tireless advocate for missing children.

Georgia (05:16): "The biggest badass in the fucking world. So the whole thing kind of centers follows her around and what she had to go through."

IV. DNA Evidence and the Wrongful Conviction

A significant portion of the episode discusses the problematic DNA evidence that led to the wrongful conviction of Gary Literman in 2002. Karen and Georgia critique the forensic processes of the time, pointing out how cross-contamination and flawed lab procedures can lead to grave miscarriages of justice.

Georgia (47:04): "The lab analyst admitted that they routinely process samples from different cases at the same, and the pantyhose sample had become contaminated."

V. Personal Anecdotes and Reflections

Interwoven with their analysis, Karen and Georgia share personal stories that add depth to their discussion. Karen recounts a humorous yet embarrassing incident involving a sanitary napkin belt, showcasing the hosts' trademark blend of humor and relatability.

Karen (35:17): "I was like, whatever. Doubled it up, threw my hair back, washed my face."

VI. Impact of True Crime Storytelling

The hosts reflect on the profound effect that sharing true crime stories has had on both listeners and themselves. They emphasize the importance of giving voice to survivors and honoring their experiences, as exemplified by their interaction with Jennifer Mori, a survivor featured on the show "I Survived."

Karen (83:16): "Jennifer Mori herself heard about this episode, and this is a story she told us backstage... she was so moved. She said thank you."

VII. Survivor Interaction and Live Show Highlights

Karen shares the heartfelt moment when Jennifer Mori attended a live recording of their podcast, bringing a tangible sense of connection and purpose to their work. This interaction underscores the show's role in fostering a supportive community for survivors and advocates.

Karen (83:28): "She walked on stage as our surprise guest... one of the most beautiful things that I'm so grateful for."

VIII. Conclusion and Legacy

As the episode wraps up, Karen and Georgia reflect on the legacy of their podcast. They express gratitude towards their listeners and reaffirm their commitment to continuing impactful storytelling, blending true crime with personal narratives to educate and inspire.

Karen (87:29): "We hope you keep listening. We'll keep making them. So let us know in the comments."

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Notable Quotes:

• Karen (07:34): "Everything about it is... it's an intense tragedy of just a child disappearing."

• Georgia (37:54): "What are the chances? That's insane."

• Karen (44:08): "You're gonna go on a date. If you've met a person, none of the other alarm bells are going off."

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Final Thoughts

This "Rewind" episode serves not only as a retrospective on a pivotal case but also as a testament to the enduring power of storytelling in seeking justice and healing. Karen and Georgia skillfully blend analytical discourse with personal anecdotes, creating a compelling narrative that resonates deeply with both long-time fans and new listeners alike.

Key Takeaways:

• Forensic Flaws: The episode highlights the critical importance of accurate DNA testing and the dangers of lab contamination.

• Advocacy and Resilience: Jacob Wetterling's mother's unwavering advocacy showcases the impact one individual can have in the fight against child abductions.

• Community and Support: The interaction with Jennifer Mori illustrates the podcast's role in building a supportive community for survivors and their families.

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Note: Listeners are encouraged to explore Episode 95, where Jennifer Mori shares her inspirational story in depth, further emphasizing the podcast's commitment to honoring and uplifting survivors.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Easy. They're from dsw. Because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're into right now. You know, like the sneakers that make office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off the many sides of you, from daydreamer to multitasker and everything in between. Because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or dsw.com@ameca insurance. We know it's more than just a house. It's your home. The place that's filled with memories.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The early days of figuring it out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To the later years of still figuring it out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For the place you've put down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Roof Trust Amica Home Insurance.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Amica empathy is our best policy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A rewind. It's Wednesday and that means we're recapping one of our old shows with all new commentary, all new updates, which I don't think there can be old updates and insights about one of the old shows we did long ago.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right, one of the old Epps. And today we're looking back at episode 33, which we actually named what About Mimi?

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's been a big part of this podcast for nine whole years, that Mimi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. She's holding on too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's living through it. Her and Frank. So join us today as we take you Back to the 252nd day of 2016. That's right, Thursday, September 8th.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And now we can all be day one listeners.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So let's listen to the intro of episode 33. What about Mimi?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi. Oh, no, that's how we started it this week.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi, everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you there? Hello?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, That's Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who's this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, and that's Georgia.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. These are our voices. If you can't tell them apart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh yeah, you do yours.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Hi, this is Georgia. I gasp into the microphone a lot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi, this is Karen. I sing and lie. And this is my favorite Murder, which is a podcast where we talk about murders that happen, that interest us and intrigue us and hopefully make your time at work in the swimming pool or on a darkened road while you take a walk. Go by a little bit faster.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're welcome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's it. Yeah, that was it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's such an effort to do like an official beginning of this podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's get into it. Let's fucking get into it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's pass it all by housekeeping.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, so, Jacob. Okay, so this is the thing we wanted to talk about that I said don't fucking talk to me about until our podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. She's very stern.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm very stern. So Jacob Wetterling has bought this. What is he? 13 year old kid who went.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was kidnapped. It was him, his brother and a friend. They were riding their bikes to the store and a guy held them at gunpoint and told the other two to run away and took Jacob.

[Georgia Hardstark]

1989, which we have said many times that the 80s are gonna be under arrest for being fucking shitty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was not good time for us as children.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, speaking of, I just watched a documentary that is now on Netflix over the weekend called who took Johnny?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I stared at that all weekend going, watch it, Karen. This is supposed to be your thing. And I couldn't bring myself to watch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because I've heard them talk about it on last podcast on the left. And it is so dark and it's so creepy and it is so not your average kidnapping. I just didn't want to have to take it in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I agree, there's a lot of information. The thing I took away from it. Hold on. Johnny got. I'm fucking running. The thing I took away from it is that his mother. And like this is the only positive thing is the biggest badass in the fucking world. So the whole thing like kind of centers follows her around and what she had to go through. Like when her son got kidnapped and when the police 72 hour waiting period for this little boy who in the dark on his paper route in the morning, his papers were left behind. His adorable dachshund which was left behind. Which why would you do that? And they said they thought he ran away. So she had to go to great lengths for years and years and became an advocate, just like John Walsh is. But without a TV show for children. And it's amazing what she's done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can't. I can't take it in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You gotta watch it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I just am so tired. I'm so tired.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, that's okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, the Franklin cover up comes into play. It's so hard to believe. I have such a hard time with so many of these little. Like, there's two things. One of them is that a guy gets arrested and says that he was one of the people who took Johnny. Gosh. And he became a sex slave.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the other thing is that the mom says that she saw him, Johnny, as an adult. As an adult came to her door.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And those two things, like, if you believe them both, it's a fucking insane story. If you don't, then it's a fucking insane story because people are crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Everything about it is, you know, if it was just everything peeled away of just the facts that you actually know. It's an intense tragedy of just a child disappearing. There's. It's the. It's worst case scenario because then you're a grieving parent who never gets relief and what that must do to you. But then there's also the thing of. It's just like, I think the reason people like Stranger Things or whatever, it's that thing of, well, then you must be crazy if you are in grief to this degree. And of course, with the mothers, with women, it's always your crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so a woman trying to get answers and get her child help and get some action when she's being deemed crazy, which is the ultimate stamp that people can negate you and your voice with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, she was saying that too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maddening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like men. Men are stern, but women are shrill, you know? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the patriarchy. It's the. It's the standard bullshit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And yet she was able to change laws and be an advocate for children who have gone missing and turn her grief into something useful and worthwhile. Not that grief is not those things, but.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, that's great. That's amazing. That's a huge upswing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's amazing. Yeah, I definitely. I know it's a hard. It's a hard case, but it's a really good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fine, I'll watch it. Fine, fine, fine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Quit your four jobs that you have and stay home and watch who took Johnny.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's what I did too. And, but sorry, we started that by Mentioning that Jacob Wetterling's remains were finally found so his parents have rest. And there was a lot of people who sent us that. It makes me really happy that people send us those articles and they're so, you know, enthusiastically like, oh, it's such a nice idea to think that after all these years, at the very least those parents have a little bit of rest and a little bit of like just at least they know where he is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I was. So I read that about him being found and they hadn't released a lot of details about it. Now there's more stuff coming out, like who. Like the guy confessed to it and that's how they found the body. But so the whole time I was watching who Took Johnny? I was just. And all these twists and turns that maybe was this and it could have been this and he might be still alive and an adult and all these things. And I couldn't help but just like picture his. This sad. His bones buried somewhere remote as in the exact same way he looked when he got taken. And these crazy stories of what happened that are just not true. And in the meantime, these lonely bones somewhere. It just made me sad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, it's. It's so tragic. It's heavy. Heavy. That's why I'm going to clumsily segue now into my next piece of Housekeeping. Because let's just, let's not live there forever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry, did I get too dark?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not at all. No. This is what we, this is what we like. But we can't just like, you know, we have to continue it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have an apology to make for anyone who heard me talk shit about the British procedural Rosemary in Time. Because what I did this weekend was watch probably 20 episodes of Rosemary in Thyme, which is a hilarious. It's not supposed to be hilarious, but I found it so enjoyable, so relaxing. It's two like middle aged British women who, who are gardeners and they go, they keep getting hired. It's very Murder she roady, except for there's two of them. And these two are so enjoyable to watch the murders, which is ludicrous. There's always two murders everywhere they go. People are dropping like flies. No one cares. They're never suspected. But half of more than half of the show takes place in the most gorgeous gardens you've ever seen. So there's a real like, you can see them aiming at like probably like a 60 year old lady who's gonna sit in her at night, knit, eat some candy and watch this show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That sounds fucking amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was that lady this weekend and I fucking loved it. I was so relaxed. You have to see it. It's. But one time someone asked me about British procedurals and someone recommended Rosemary and Thyme. And, oh, was I flippant about how that was Grandma. Grandma Crime show. And I don't care. Well, I'm. I apologize. Whoever I said that to, I am 1000% wrong. I love Rosemary Thyme with the best of them. And Pam Faris and. Oh, I wrote their names down because Felicity Kendall and Pam Faris are the two stars. They're so goddamn good. And Pam Faris went on to star in a show called Call the Midwife, which I also love.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which one was she?

[Karen Kilgariff]

She is the nun that wears the habit all the time. She's like all business nun. She looks like everyone in my family.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that show, Call the Midwife.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love Call the Midwife. And she is. She's like, holds it down on there. So she's been on British TV for, like, 40 years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That sounds like a combination of Murder, She Wrote and the Great British Bake off kind of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Where you're just kind of being soothed by British voices. A little violence. Gorgeous flowers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, you can't have one without.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The other, and you shouldn't. And also they. What I love is, in a British procedural, you will watch them casually drinking tea. And I just love the fact that people, like, cut out time in the day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Drink tea and eat cookies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Think there's bourbon in there. Am I just saying that because I just had Berman in there?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's probably everywhere.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, deep down. I mean, as you uncapped, it's all just like vodka.

[Karen Kilgariff]

100 grain vodka.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Other. Housekeeping. Housekeeping.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think the Rosemary and Thyme Apology was my number one housekeeping pretty much this week.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was Correction Corner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that was a huge correction because also, once again, I've gotten it wrong with England.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, hey, we're in Entertainment Weekly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, hey, guess what? That's right. We just found this out tonight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Someone very nice here. I'll look them up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's give them a shout out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They were like a stage mom that I've never had that gave a shit where they. It's D Train. Of course D Train's there for us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

D Train Train writes. Hey, did you see this show in Entertainment Weekly? Congrats. And the answer was no, we absolutely had not. We didn't know it was gonna be in there. We're in there. Atlas Obscura. Which is a rad website. We're in there with a band called Sunlit Youth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sure young people love them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sure that they're cool. It's like a bunch of dudes in stretched out white T shirts with really sparse facial hair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I read you my text exchange about it with my dad, please? So I sent him the photo that D Train sent us, and I said, my podcast is in Entertainment Weekly because, you know, the only thing that seems legitimate is if it's on television or in a magazine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like it doesn't matter if you're on the website.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he said, omg, Wonderful. Very proud of you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go, girl, Marty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then he said, comedian, I like the sound of that. And I said, me too. And he said, is this on Facebook? I'd like to share it, Daddy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's your job, dad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks, dad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go ahead and throw that up on Facebook with a baby picture. Let's see it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that's funny, because I texted my sister Adrian and Audrey, who are my hometown posse and all fans of the show. Not Laura. She doesn't listen to it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your sister doesn't give it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's like, I don't have time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I literally have told her when she can listen to it. I'm like, when you drive after you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Drop off your daughter, my sister in law is the only one who listens to it. Of my family. Like, my not related person is the only one who can hear my voice and hate me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, Audrey. Audrey and Adrienne both totally listen to it. So I went on to our nonstop, constant group text and just went, hey, you guys, look, we're in Entertainment Weekly. No one answered for a while. And then Adrian responded, what magazine is that? I'm like, don't make me fucking say it twice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then no one answered for a while. And then I had written, will someone please go buy one and give it to my dad? And so then nobody answers for a while. And then Adrian comes back and goes, laura, are you on that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're like, hello? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was like, this is classic. And then I was like, sorry for bragging. And then my sister called me, of course.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm so proud of you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I sent it to my mom and dad. I haven't heard a word from my mother. Well, hates me. No, I'm just kidding. Can I just shout out Yolanda, my sister in law, and how sweet she is because she listening. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, was she at the wedding? Of course I May have met her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. She's a doll.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks, Yolanda. It's. You're the most important kind of family. Which is the family that listens to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The podcast doesn't hate you for cracking an egg over your head and when you were five.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. There's no grudges, no old grudges with those in laws.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All I've been in her mind is a great aunt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good time party gal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Good time party girl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Probably a good gift giver, I would say.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm terrible at gift giving.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really?

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's a great gift. I'm a piece of shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What? Gift cards. Just all Starbucks gift cards everywhere.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just forget.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

More than that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I try to make it seem like as if I'm a Seventh Day Adventist. I don't give gifts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't either.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, Karen doesn't do that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can we agree, and we did this on our last birthdays that we don't give each other gifts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's not do that to each other.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Never.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I might. I might pick you up something if I see it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. It's like, let's. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All year round.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But if it has to be on your birthday, I'm gonna let you down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't want you to be stressed out and then feel guilty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't even. We podcasted on your birthday and I didn't even know it was your birthday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because I don't want to put that shit on people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But then I feel worse. I didn't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, but what do you get? I'm not on Facebook. I keep to myself. I'm a fiercely private person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, it's my birthday today. You can't say that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Didn't it feel weird just now?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, let's talk about murder. Are you ready?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was called. That was called Family forum. That last part.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was called working out friendship details. Friendship rules. This is an important thing because I swear to God, if I'm friends with a person and they give me some fucking three stacks of beautifully wrapped gifts, I'm like, get off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, we're not gonna be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't want this from you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're gonna be very disappointed when your birthday rolls around. You're getting this for me, and then I feel obligated and then I write this card that's like, hey, thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For forcing this liking me out of me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I just take you for a meal? All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And. And actually you should.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I will.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel you owe me. Who went first last week?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think you did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Am I wrong? All right, we're taking a quickie break.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stay tuned.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then my favorite murders are happening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we're back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello. Hi. I'm looking at the photo right now on Instagram that we took from that recording nine years ago. I have not seen this photo since back then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Probably right. Of your house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Look at everything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. You could actually. When I saw that picture, that's what I said. I go, I wonder if Georgia's seen this lately, because that is just, like, it captured a moment of your old department, like, with all your stuff and different things and, like, what your life looked like nine years ago.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It did. And with Steven on the ground there, like, what our whole lives were like back then in my cute little apartment. Oh, my God. This is like I'm. I'm clamped all over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I mean, and I'm shit saying. It's almost like that's our point of view. Like, the other picture was Steven's point of view to us recording. But I do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I definitely took this one. That's my love seat, I think, that I'm taking this from.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it makes sense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With my whiskey. My whiskey on the table. If you'll notice that it's a vintage rocks glass, which I don't use anymore because there's lead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All that lead that you were drinking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That night and all three gave Stephen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here. This will make you feel better. Yeah, we were talking about all kinds of. I mean, we were talking about it. We've talked about it a ton. I said it then. I feel the same way. The Johnny Gosh case kills me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is that you still can't handle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's one of those things where, like, I think part of the draw and I think the emotional interplay, if I may. And I may not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wish it would.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of this show is like. Or of any true crime kind of fan's experience is that you're looking into this, like, horrifying, you know, gaping maw of human mystery.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I guess human mystery and misery.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Misery, pain. People being stuck in places with no answers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like unfathomable loss. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But then also loss. But then almost like a person coming back. Like, are they really there? Will we know. Like, it's so heartbreaking, everything about that. And it hasn't gotten better.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's one of those cases. Well, the other one we mentioned was the Jacob Wetterling case, which I will mention every single time that season one of in the Dark. That is about this case. When they were, like, days Or a week before they were going to release the show, his murderer was caught. I mean, talk about timing. And it's an incredible show. So make sure you check out season one of in the Dark.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Season one of in the Dark. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Entertainment Weekly. Look at us go. Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that Entertainment Weekly spread was really fun. That was a very cool moment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was this the spread or. It keeps saying we were mentioned.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, it could be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what? The one where I screwed it up and was like, it's us and sunlit youth, when it was supposed to be it's us and local Natives. So embarrassing. I apologize on the next episode. But Local Natives is a cool band and we were mentioned in there. But then I think maybe a couple months or a year later was when it was the spread. That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, you know, we were actually in my loft by that when those photos got taken. So that's how you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. That's how we know it's progressed in time, forward.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. Instead of having carpet, I now have, like, gray. Grayish wood floors that are just hideous. And that's how, you know we've made it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's how you know you're moving on up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. When you have fake gray wood floors.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I like that we said to each other, we don't have to give each other gifts. It's very. That's the way to do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was a relief. I think I have that relief when I meet other friends that are also like, yeah, I don't do gifts either. Or like, with Vince, where it's like, we don't really. Like, he's not, like, hardcore about it and I'm not. And so we don't. I don't always feel the. Have to feel the pressure every year because he does so great, and I do. So, you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It just happens when it fucking happens, not like it's not expected. And that almost makes it better when you get a gift or give a gift that the person's not, like, you don't feel obligated to give.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It's that kind of beholden thing where someone sends you something and you're like, okay, so then the thing I get you has to be equal, if not greater in emotional value. The hard element of gift giving.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some people in my family, like, insist on continuing to give adults gifts at the holidays.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I just think it should be like, just, let's all just bring a dessert. That's the gift, you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bring a box of Cs and give the kids presents. Like, we don't need gifts anymore.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sorry, this will be way off. Well, it's on topic for what you just said, but it's a little off. But I think I told you this. You can go onto the see's website and design your own box. So you can just go through and do the exercise of what would you put together if it was your custom made box just for you to eat? And I did that one night simply just to pass the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Will they send it to you in the mail?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, so it can be whatever you want in there. But it's like, you know how usual the normal nuts and shoes say, for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Example, that's Vince's nuts and shoes and I'm assorted. And we fight about it constantly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, the fight's over. Because if you go on there, you can split it down the center. You can do it however you want. Fill the whole thing with caramel patties. Whatever you want to do, you can do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get your fucking chocolate covered nuts away from me. I'm not a fucking hippie health nut. Like, give me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I am caramel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Give me fucking marshmallow. I want the, like, indulgent ones. Not like, I don't want trail mix when I'm eating dessert, you know, I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hear you, I understand. But for me, the combination of their roasted almonds and like milk chocolate is so outstanding. But you know what I never had. And then I swear to God, we'll stop talking about this. Cause it's not the right show and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to eat it now. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I'm so hungry. Have you ever had those scotchmellow bars there?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, the fucking with the marshmallow and the caramel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's ridiculous. It's the first one I go to whenever I open a box.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, there's something about that combo. It's balanced so perfectly. Mary C. He just hats off to you once again. Mary, love you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And like, so proud. It's like an LA institution, you know, it's just like, Jesus, I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's a baller, baller, baller.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, should we get into my story?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Should we go back to talking about this episode?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, this one. Yeah, this one. I had forgotten about this. And I forgot about the DNA thing at the very end, which is just mind blowing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, yeah, we'll let you tell us. But from 2016, this is Georgia's story about Gary Earl Leiterman and the Michigan murder. This podcast is brought to you in part by Squarespace.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Get discovered faster with Squarespace's built in SEO tools. With meta descriptions and auto generated sitemaps, you'll rank higher in search results globally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so brilliant. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.commurder to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's squarespace.commurder goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So we're only a few weeks into 2025 and I think everyone's ready for 2026.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you're starting the year feeling stressed, everyone, anxious, everyone, or just need someone to talk to, you're not alone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Therapy is a great way to process your feelings and Talkspace is the leading virtual therapy provider.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Talkspace brings therapy to you so you can get support from the comfort and privacy of your home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

While therapy can be costly, Talkspace is affordable and in network with most insurance providers, most insured members have a zero dollar copay. You can easily and get paired with the licensed provider that fits your needs typically within 48 hours.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that this is available to anyone who needs it because I needed this way back when and now I do telehealth pretty much solely and it has really changed therapy for me. Being able to have one of my cats on my lap and being on my comfy couch in the comfort of my home has really made a difference between how I connect with my therapist.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And as a listener of this podcast. You'll get $80 off your first month of talk space when you go to talkspace.com mfm and enter promo code space80.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To match with a licensed therapist today go to talkspace.com mFM and enter promo code space80 to get $80 off your first month and show your support for the show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's talkspace.com mfm promo code space80. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love is in the air. This Season.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So don't stink it up with your body odor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

It's thoughtfully formulated without parabens or baking soda, and it's ph balanced.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And Luma is clinically proven to block and control odor for up to 72 hours.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Lum Starter Pack is perfect for new customers. It comes with a solid stick deodorant cream tube deodorant, two free products of your choice like mini body wash and deodorant wipes, and free shipping as a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Special offer for listeners. New customers get 15% off all Lumi products with our exclusive code.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And if you combine the 15% off with your already discounted starter pack, that equals over 40% off their starter pack.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Use code MURDER for 15% off your purchase at lumide deodorant.com that's code MURDER.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At L U M E D E O D O R A N T dot com.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please support our show and tell them that we sent you Smell Fresher, stay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Drier and boost your confidence from head to toe with Lumi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye. Goodbye. We're back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we're back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And hi. We're back. Hi. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

George is first this week.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So are you ready to put your phone down and listen to me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was gonna send you that picture. You get me every goddamn time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What if I was that big of a dick?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you ready to listen?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's my one Trigger is phone stuff. No, I'm kidding. I don't give a about anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm pulling this microphone forward and leaning back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Go to instagram.com My favorite murder to see a photo we just took.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's. I have no makeup on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Neither do I. And my pants are just completely unbuttoned and unzipped.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's my Alicia Keys photo. All right, I'm taking this out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is it going to make a lot of noise?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I'm not. I'm not going to make. Make one move.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven, you better tell her if she.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just want to relax keeping an eye on her. Okay. Yeah. CLINK clunks Give me the finger.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, all right. So my favorite murder this week is that of Gary Earl Lederman and the Michigan murders. So it's kind of a. It's kind of a mashup.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. In the late 1960s, there was a serial killer targeting young women in the college town of Ann Arbor, Michigan. He was called the Co Ed Killer. He became known as a Co Ed Killer. And he murdered women in and around Ann arbor in a two year period.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

His M.O. was picking up young women between the ages of 13 and 21. Then he would rape, beat and murder them, typically by stabbing or strangulation. Sometimes their bodies would be mutilated, which I don't get into. Don't worry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you're squeamish after death before being discarded in a desolate area. And he was also known to visit their bodies before they were found. Ooh. Yeah, he was a creep. Yeah, like a gross up, sadistic creep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was. He was the OG Ted Bundy, it sounds like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was like. I think. I don't know if I should have looked this up, but they must have had the term serial killer already because they called him that. But it was like before. This was like a known thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Serial killing. So two young women attributed to the coed killer had been found when the body of Jane mixer, a brilliant 23 year old law student at the University of Michigan was found on March 21, 1969. She was found in a cemetery just west of Ann Arbor. And it was assumed she was a victim of the serial killer, the Co Ed Killer. Killer. But some of the details of her murder were different than the established MO of the Co Ed Killer. Jane had disappeared after posting a note on a college rideshare bulletin board. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, honey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She was seeking a ride across the state to her hometown of Muskegon, where she intended. Oh, my God. This is the worst part. She intended to inform her family of her engagement and imminent move to New York. Like, she intended to inform everyone of the beautiful life she was building for herself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And was excited to start.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She just had some great news. It's like, oh. Her parents had been waiting for this day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. A guy she met at law school who was a sweet angel. They were going to move to New York and. And pursue their careers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her sweet baby angle, that's my saying, I love.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. Thank you. Yeah. It makes me really sad, but, you know, like, I wonder how, like, there's one thing about hitchhiking that we are always like, don't hitchhike. But the other thing of, like, putting it, hey, if anyone's heading to, like, fucking Muskegon and you ride.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, in this Day and age. I think it's a little bit better if you're gonna do that in 1969, don't. Don't do get away with any corkboard of any kind. Yeah, there's nothing good is happening. Everything's laced with acid. Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, those were great quotes. Amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I'm really mad about it. I had no idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's ridiculous. So her body had been found in a cemetery atop a grave. She had been. And we learned this from. How to say this from JonBenet. Garrotted. Correct. Yeah, garroted.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Garreted.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. With a nylon stocking. And it wasn't her own stocking. It was Come to. Come to find out. But the way she died was that she was shot twice in the head with a.22 caliber. She hadn't been beaten or sexually assaulted like the other victims of the coed killer had, but she did have her dress pulled up, showing her underwear, but it had been carefully covered up with her yellow raincoat afterwards. And her shoes and her copy of Catch 22 had been carefully placed nearby. So, like, this person took care.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was like painting a picture.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And like, covering her body is such. I mean, we all know what it means now, but back then, it was like we didn't understand, like, that really meant caretaking this person.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Which means a personal relationship. Usually.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't. Yes, you're right. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I thought that's what you were saying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, but you're right. I just. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you're so smart. I'm just going to hand this whole podcast over to you. Don't do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please don't do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So four days after she's discovered the body, another body of the coed victim, the coed killer, is found. Marilyn Skelton. She disappeared while hitchhiking in Ann Arbor. And her murder more closely resembled the MO of the serial killer. I wrote fucked up fact. Each woman up until this point, including Jane Mixer, had been menstruating at the time of their death. Oh, what in the actual fuck? What are the chances?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, who works at the tampon store is my first, as I'm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, you think it's a. Well, they wore sanitary napkins. Like, went up to their chins.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who sold those sanitary napkin belts? Did you just say that one up to their chin?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have you seen these things?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I tell you a hilarious and very quick anecdote? Always my friend, Lisa Lanyon, who I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Went to high school saying her full name. Are you about to tell an impression?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, she'd like it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I spent the night at her house one night, and I wanted to wash my face before we went to bed. I couldn't find anything to hold my hair back. And then I found this. This. No, this white elastic, weird headband that had plastic clips on it. I was like, whatever. Doubled it up, threw my hair back, washed my face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Came out of the bathroom. Her mother started laughing so hard she could not breathe. And then Lisa was like, karen, you have a sanitary napkin belt on your head.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The joke is on them because what the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was like some old thing. I think she. I think the story was like, her mom showed her, like, this is what you used to have to use and then threw it in the bathroom drawer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was like some old thing she found of, like, Lisa, can you believe this? Her mom had this great British Boston accent. Her mom was hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is the most beautiful story I've ever heard in my life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I own. Her mom lost her mind when she saw me, and she was like, you are the funniest girl. Where I was like, I was just putting a hairband in my hair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How embarrassing. But good for you for washing your face before bed. Thanks, Gig Pro tip, as someone who has open adult acne on her face right now, always wash your face before bed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Seriously. It's something that's very hard to do once you're in your, like, fourth episode of Rosemary Time. You're like, I'm not getting off this. Who cares?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's why within arm's reach at all times. You have face wipes everywhere.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good girl. Tip for the lazy. There'll be more of those coming up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're very lazy. That was a great segue. That was the best story of it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, don't. Sorry. That needs to be the girl who makes those amazing cartoons of us. Oh, yeah, comic strips of us. Can that lovely girl please make one of this story?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. And give me a button nose. I demand it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone keeps commenting when I put photos, like drawings on Instagram of how that you have a button nose and amazing cheekbones in every drawing. Because you do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. You just bend people to your will. Tell me I'm pretty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We with the old hair. Bless you, chalice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Matt McCarthy actually texted me button nose the other morning.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He did a shout out to Matt McCarthy. He looks sarcastic. Yeah, but he listens.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He listens and loves.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe he sarcastically listens.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I think he genuinely listens, but was being sarcastic about my buttons.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so Matt McCarthy of the We Watch wrestling podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We watch wrestling podcast if you like wrestling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, all right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Back to the story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Back to the murders.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Back to murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. So all had been menstruating. Crazy creepy, fucking weird. And like seems linked. Right. What are the chances?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What are the chances? That's insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So after three more murders of a 13 year old named Don Luis Basam and 21 year old Alice Elizabeth Callum, with his final victim which was due to his Capture being an 18 year old named Karen Sue Beniman, John Norman Collins, a former fraternity dude, was caught.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's that young or he's just former.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, he was, he was. Oh God. I don't know if his age but he was a young man man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was in college. Like college age too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And honestly, like between you and me, he was hot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's. They're the worst. That's the, it's the Ted Bundy thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that's why these girls would get in his car and get on his motorcycle. He was a cute college dude. He's not anymore. He's gross. But look at an old photo of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, no one's gonna go with a gross guy. If a, if a guy rolls up and is like, hey, can you help me with my thing? And. And yeah, and they look creepy, people are going to go, no. I can use my very basic senses to be like, no thanks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's this automatic thing of trusting a attractive face.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Giving credit to being attractive is that means you're a good person, trustworthy person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So what does it mean that people think I'm a terrible person? Does that mean I'm not attractive?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nobody thinks that you're trying to give people right rides. Always you're rolling up, trying to get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

People to get into your car to not kill them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Just to drive them around and talk about your own stuff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It just seemed like to Advent. Sometimes when I say I, I went to therapy today, all I mean is I picked someone up and made them drive around with me for an hour.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You made them listen to you for an hour?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, and I gave them 20 bucks and dropped them off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bye. So he had been interviewed by police previously but had been eliminated as a suspect. And part of the reason he was caught was due to the identification by a clerk of the wig shop which his last victim named Karen had visited. Yes. This was an episode of A Crime to Remember.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The one with the car. What it's like it. The one thing they knew about him, like they had no idea who it was for a long time. But the one thing they knew, it was like, a blue car.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was a motorcycle. Oh, oh, is that the one where the little girl gets kidnapped, like, from her driveway?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And. And they knew the car. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that. Turns out it was a guy that lived right in the neighborhood.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. I'm combining. Sorry, I'm combining.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. No, you're right, though. So Karen, the last Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've watched too many crime shows. All the same in my mind now know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Karen, the last person who was murdered by him that day. The day of her disappearance had visited a wig shop. And the clerk had remembered that Karen was visiting her store to purchase a hairpiece. And there was a young man waiting outside for her on a blue motorcycle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ooh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And Karen told the clerk, clerk, I mean, man, this bums me out. Ready? She said to the clerk to observe the man with whom she had accepted a ride. A cockeye and a motorcycle, stating that she had made two foolish errors in her life. Purchasing a wig and accepting a ride from a stranger. And then she stated, I've got to be either the bravest or the dumbest girl alive because I've just accepted a ride from the sky. The. What are the chances she was then seen climbing onto the motorcycle before riding away with him?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, that makes me think of. It's like when you get a bad feeling in your gut and you make light of it. That's right. And you feel like, oh, if I just say this to one person, it'll make it less a bad feeling in my gut.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is this crazy?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And. Yeah, exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When you're like, this crazy thing just happened to me. This person assaulted me. And you're like. Like, you should be taking it seriously.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, no, I just mean it more in the way of, like, before anything hap. Before anything bad happens. But you do have the thing of. This isn't right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, what the. That. But I was gonna. I mean, from your own life. Are we fighting?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was amazing. Like, what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I went from your own life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Most of the time, if I get an A thing, I walk. I. I don't do this. But. But I think probably back when I drank, I would do it more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But there wasn't a lot of information coming in because of, like, the gallons of whiskey that I had inside.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. There's definitely jokes I've made that are like. Like, I have a hot date tonight. And it's like, well, it's just with this. With this person, you don't fucking know yeah. And it's. And you're really actually. You should be afraid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You're nervous and you're telling people and you're trying not to act quote unquote weird by telling them I'm nervous. So you're just trying to make a joke about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But then Vince and I got married, so it was fun. No, but one time I did go on a date with someone. I was going on a date with someone and I gave his phone number to my best friend. This is before self like most, before cell phones to be like, hey, if I don't show up tomorrow. Yeah, this here's my. And here's his info.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's not cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, but also now because a lot of people talk about this to us, which is, I don't want to leave my house. I'm so anxious. I'm so nervous. I think everyone's going to kill me or whatever, which I think is people connecting with us and people reaching out. They've heard us say it. They're going to just say it too, because they're admitting it. But there's also that thing of just. It's just a safety precaution. Nobody cares. Nobody thinks you're weird. You give that number and then you just have a little thing in place because it's. I think it's a smart thing to do. It's just taking. It's being proactive for yourself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because. Yeah, you're gonna go on a date. If you've met a person, none of the other. Other alarm bells are going off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. It doesn't mean you shouldn't. That's a person you shouldn't go on a date with because it's just being precautious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But. But. Yeah. But also do that thing that might feel weird, but you can just do it for. With a friend. You don't have to do it to every person, you know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then you're being like neurotic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But you, you put a little safety.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Measure out there. Hell yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Ready? Accept the ride. So that's how he. One of the. One of the main ways he got caught that led to all the other. Other evidence against him. And in August 1970, John Norman Collins was found guilty of first degree murder of Karen, his last victim. And he was sentenced to serve a life imprisonment with hard labor in solitary confinement. He never admitted his guilt in either the murder of Karen or any of the other murders linked to the Michigan murder he is suspected of committing. So they only tried him for that one crime for the one murder that they have a ton of evidence on and eyewitness evidence, and then he was never going to get out, so they didn't try him for the other murders. Which has to be hard when you're the family of those other victims.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And how many other people were there, did you say?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, here's. Okay, so here's the rest of the story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they, I mean up until 2002 they figured he had like seven murders in the area. But the case of Jane Mixer was considered solved by the fact that that John Norman Collins had did it until 2002 when Michigan State detectives noticed that a lot of the details of her murder didn't match up with Collins crimes. So they took a look at the case again and they took three drops of sweat that had been on Jane Mixer's pantyhose and a single drop of blood that had been on her hand to be tested for DNA. All right, the DNA didn't match John Norman Collins, the co ed killer, but it did match 62 year old Gary Literman, who was a former nurse from southwestern Michigan, who was a drug salesman in Michigan at the time of the murders in the area. It was thought that Lederman was the person who had responded to Jane's note on the college rideshare bulletin asking for a lift home. Because somehow a dorm room book, a phone book in the dorm rooms, read the words, quote, mixer and Muskegon, which is where she was going, and were linked to his handwriting. But that was in 2002 that they found those, or that they linked those. All right, anyway, anyways, maybe they had.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The evidence, but they just hadn't kind of put anything together just sitting somewhere.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. And then when his house was searched, where he had lived with his wife of 27 years, two Polaroid pictures of a 16 year old foreign exchange student who had lived with him and his wife were found. The girl was drugged, unconscious, lying on his bed with her clothing pulled back to show her junk. And it was similar to the pose that Jane had been left in in the cemetery.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the sweat stains linked to Lederman, not the serial killer. But the drop of blood found on her hand was linked through DNA to someone else. It was a Detroit man who was at the time of the DNA match, serving life in prison for murder. Murder. The problem was ready for this, that John Ruellis, whose DNA matched the blood drop, was 4 years old at the time of the murder. Right. So the defense argued that the state police lab had contaminated the samples when Both men's DNA were tested at the lab within a day of each other. Liederman's had been tested separately. He had a recent arrest for forging prescription meds from where he worked as a nurse. And Ruela's was for murder. But the cross contamination made the DNA match to Lederman. It should have made it in the, in the court case, just null and void. Because if you find someone else's DNA on this person that isn't, there's no way that person could have committed the crime. Then the rest of the DNA should be fucking thrown out. Thrown out as evidence. Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What is that? Are you saying that's the law or you're just saying that's like logic?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's logic to me. We can get to that. It didn't get thrown out. The prosecution argued that ruellis, who was 4 years old at the time and a chronic nosebleeder, must have been at the crime scene and somehow got a drop of blood on your face. That you're making is correct is what I feel too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. A four year old with a bloody nose wandered over to a dead body.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They didn't argue that there was a mistake in the crime lab, but the other DNA was legitimate and here's why. They said that there was a four year old boy in the cemetery and had somehow gotten his blood on her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That in and of itself is the creepiest thing. We've talked about this whole episode. The idea of a four year old with a bloody nose walking through a cemetery and stumbling upon Daddy dead body.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's absurd, but he, he was convicted. Lman was convicted of the murder of Jane Mixer. Based on the, the DNA evidence and these other little basic things. According to the book Inside the Cell, the Dark side of Forensic DNA by Aaron Murphy, which we all need to read immediately. I'm buying. The lab analyst admitted that they routinely process samples from different cases at the same as one of the negative controls processed in this case at the time, that the pantyhose sample that was processed had become contaminated. Like not even connected to all of this. But the analyst had tried to hide that fact.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In addition, Raoul's DNA wasn't even processed at that lab. It was sent out for testing in a different location. But they still were able to cross contaminate at that, at the lab where it had originated. Like that's some fucked up shit. Yeah, right. So after minutes of deliberation, Leaderman was convicted of first degree murder and got life in prison.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He minutes of deliberation. Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know all right, so I kind of wrote these things of like, here's what's hard to argue with of leader men being guilty is that all of the crimes that we're talking, including mixers, had to do with rides somewhere, which was the MO of the Co Ed killer. They all had something tied around their necks, some of which didn't belong to the murder victim, including Jane's. The first few were menstruating, which is fucking insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bizarre.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They were all left in locations where they would eventually be found kind of on purpose. They all were connected to the university, which, I mean, if you live in Ann Arbor, that's kind of hard not to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's a university town.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A lot of them were strangled. And the fifth known victim was shot in the head as well. So it wasn't totally against his M.O. but at the same time, the majority of those murders he was never tried and convicted for. So it's not like we can say that he did them definitively.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But according to Lederman's roommate in college, Lederman owned and liked to shoot at.22 caliber and he was obsessed with serial murders. Ooh. So it's kind of. It's kind of this, if any. It reminds me of making a murderer where it's like, I don't know if he's guilty or innocent, but he shouldn't have been prosecuted based on these pieces of evidence.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right. And that's really the only thing you have at the end of the day because everything else is bias and circumstance and kind of judgment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And it was 2002, at the height of like CSI being a big thing and everyone thinking DNA was like the end all be all and not realizing that so much of it, like eyewitness testimony was flawed because it was because human error and people not admitting, like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Covering up human errors, like, good God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So that's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So you're. You. You believe that Liederman should not be in jail? You think that that last death, that the woman that was found in the graveyard is a co Ed killer?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't think. I can't say that definitively. I think there should have been more evidence to try. I feel like now in 2016, we should go back and look and find what other. Whatever other evidence we can find and DNA test those other victims that we are attributing to the Co Ed killer, kind of cross reference them with Jane Mixer and see what really happened. But I don't. I'm not. I can't say definitively that he should be let out. I just think in the same way Stephen Avery was like, should get a new trial and you know, serial Anand Syed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know, should be. I don't listen to that one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't, you can't convict someone, especially when they have shoddy defense based on these basic things that, you know, in the future we're going to laugh at.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As like, I know. And it could, the future could be like four years now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. I mean, 2002 seems not that long ago.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so huge. It's a huge difference when it comes to like scientific evidence and all this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now where do you think, where do you think that bloody four year old plays into this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, that's the most. That's the, that's the only reason I'm talking about this murder is because that is so insane and so clearly human error of cross contamination in that lab. I can't believe the. The trial went forward.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

After that was found out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That lawyer, when he found that out that that's what that blood. Blood spatter was, must have been so stoked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The. The defense, who.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know, whoever found that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was just like, this is, I think the defense.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The big reveal of like, is this blood. Well, it was four years old.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The defense should have been stoked that that was that they found a four year old's blood who had been. Whose DNA had been tested in the same lab a day before. But for some reason he didn't pursue that enough in the trial to convince the jury that that was fucking insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because at the time, like, you're saying it's like DNA is a lock.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I mean, those prosecutors were good, I'm sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also you get somebody, it's like, it's, you know, people want a thing like that. People want that story finished, closed, period. They want it closed up and they want somebody to pay, you know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's a hard position. You know, we've felt that same way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where it's just like, erase what's happening or like somebody gets justice. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Justice is such a fraudulent term.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right. Wow. Horrifying in every way. Are there updates on this case?

[Georgia Hardstark]

There aren't many. Yeah, that story is just like piling on horrifying things. There's just like. Too many.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Too many. But during my story, Karen, you did share a funny anecdote about misusing a sanitary napkin belt. Because, like, I think we were a lot jokier during the stories back then than we Are now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure. Well, yeah, we didn't. We just thought we were talking to each other. So when we would go off on tangents, which we always do, it would just be like, oh, wait, this makes me think of this thing. Okay, now back to this horrible thing. And it wasn't really. It didn't read to us as. As kind of stark and harsh and insensitive as it does now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. I'd also like to point out, as I mentioned earlier, that full glass of whiskey, that I don't do that anymore. Maybe a can of wine. But a full glass of whiskey is not a good podcast make. So. Yeah, but it's great that you did. Hey, but good thing you brought it up because that iconic story was turned into a work of art by Nick Terry, of course, for MFM Animated. It's called Hair tie. And you can see in all its glory on the exactly right YouTube channel. I mean, if you're having a bad day and you just go to the exactly right YouTube channel and binge watch MFM animated, it's a joy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nick Terry has done something that like, as a self loathing Gen Xer who just wants to like, turn away most of the time, Nick Terry makes me enjoy what we have made here in a way that's like. It just means the world. It's like being able to see it in the way of like. Oh, I get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like it points out the special moments that you. We miss because we're fucking halfway talking about something else by the time it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Over, you know, because we're all sanitary napkin belt, which is like. Most people don't know what that is. Also, this is the episode where I say sweet baby angle. And for good or bad, we do have bumper stickers that say that on the exactly right store if you want to go buy one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. I love how Sweet baby angle has become just as important as Sweet baby Angel, the original one. And it was. Cause someone wrote in, right. And they accidentally wrote angle probably. I think that's what it was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then there was. I did have the story from my hometown of somebody wrote. When I was in high school, somebody wrote on a wall in black spray paint, angle of death. And we would. My friend would be like, oh my God, it's the angle of death.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And like a recurring dish. I wanted to open a vintage clothing shop called Hail Satin the Madison.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm still trademarking that. Like, come on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's very like early agent provocateur. Look, we're still doing it. We can't help it. It is what we're like conversationally. We just can't stop doing it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stop it. Let's get back into it. The story that I'm about to introduce that you do is so incredible. I think it's one of your best. It has an incredible update at the very end. And I think you get into this groove right now in this time period when you're doing like Mary Vincent and this story and some other really powerful ones that are are just like legendary in the over 400 episodes we've done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Also, there's. Thank you very much. That's a lovely compliment. But I am ripping off the television show I Survived directly. I credit them at the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But especially in retrospect, I was just trying to get this insane podcast homework done and so I could not. All of this is the producing minds of the people who made I Survived and how brilliantly they made that show. So I could basically tell the Jennifer Mori story because the first time I saw it, it affected me so deeply that I never forgot it. So like that day, I'm positive I was coming from one of my writing jobs and I was like, oh, I know, I'll just rewatch that and write down the facts and then just retell it the way Jennifer Mori herself told this story, which is for the good or bad. That is how I got through the year that I worked on this podcast and had a job, if not two. But I do think it was the sincere because of my true genuine respect and admiration for that show. And the way they tell victim stories, it was like, well, great, let's tell victim stories and let's get those.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, now I know the correct story, not the fucking, you know, over dramatized bullshit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The firsthand experience of a survivor is one of the most important things we could hear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so let's listen to Karen's story about Jennifer Morris.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So we're only a few weeks into 2025 and I think everyone's ready for 2026.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Therapy is a great way to process your feelings. And Talkspace is the leading virtual therapy provider.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Talkspace brings therapy to you so you can get support from the comfort and privacy of your home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that this is available to anyone who needs it because I needed this way back when and now I do telehealth pretty much solely and it has really changed therapy for me. Being able to have one of my cats on my lap and being on my comfy couch in the comfort of my home has really made a difference difference between how I connect with my.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Therapist and as a listener of this podcast. You'll get $80 off your first month of Talk Space when you go to talkspace.com mfm and enter promo code SPACE80.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com mFM and enter promo code SPACE80 to get $80 off your first month and show your support for the show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's talkspace.com mfm promo code SPACE80 Goodbye. Every day our world gets a little more connected, but a little further apart.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But then there are moments that remind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Us to be more human.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you for calling Amica Insurance.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

So this week I'm going back to my tried and true, which is I'm going to retell you one of my favorite episodes if I survived.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I never. I've never seen the show, so please do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And this one I love because this plays on if you if this you if you have some home alone as a young lady Fears this is going to cause some problems. So. Spoiler alert. Trigger alert. Scary scary alert.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It has all these pieces and the first time I saw this on I Survived, I was like gripping the couch. I was so freaked out. So essentially it goes a little something like this. It's April 15, 1995. And a young, bright, beautiful, successful 25 year old young lawyer named Jennifer Mori is. Goes out and has a drink with her friends after work one night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Big mistake.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her fault. She goes. She's at the local ale house, all her friends are there. She doesn't want to go at first. They convince her to stay. Then she ends up having a great time and she stays until midnight. Then her friend drives her home and she lives in an apartment complex called Bayou park in Houston. And the reason that she picked this apartment complex to move into was because it was all about security. And it had not just like, you know, the apartment security guards, they actually hired Pink, Pinker, Pinkerton security guards to, to work at this place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they go back in time. That's still a thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, they've been around. That's how long they've been around. It's still like a major company.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So. And that name means a lot to people in security. So that's why she picked that apartment building to live in. So she goes home at midnight, goes in, let's say she washed her face. Which is what you should do before you go to bed, ladies. So she goes in, gets ready for bed, goes to bed, turns out all the lights, wakes up at 4am there's someone on top of her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah. Get ready for this. No, it's going to be this the whole time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Scared.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there's someone straddling her and she can feel something on her neck. And she realizes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that a puppy?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Someone. No, it's not. She realizes someone's broke into her apartment and they're attempting to rape her. She's. She can't figure out if she's dreaming at first. It's that horrible in between feeling. She finally when she becomes fully awake and she realizes someone's straddling her, they've got a knife to her throat and they're going to rape her. She just starts fighting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good for her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she does everything she can. She. She fights this guy. She grabs the knife. It's all the stuff, all the crazy shit. And she's fighting him so hard that he cuts her from the cheekbone to the middle of her neck. And he slices her neck open. So she keeps on fighting, but Suddenly it gets very slippery and there's blood everywhere. And finally she starts losing blood. And, like, the fight goes out of her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He takes her by the hair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he pulls her across out of the bed, across the room, throws her into the bathroom and says, you stand here and you do not move. And he slams the door. And so she. She throws her back up against the door in the bathroom. She grabs a washcloth and she puts it up against her wound pressure, constant pressure when you have a wound like that. Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She throws her feet up against the wall and she's, like, jammed herself there so he can't come back in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then she sits there and wakes, waits and listens. And she hears him zip his pants up. And then she wait. And then she hears the door close. And then she waits a little bit longer to make sure. And then she goes to open the door. And she can't open the door because there's so much blood on her hands that she cannot get a grip on the door. And she's pulling at it and pulling at it. And then she actually says in the story, she actually started laughing because she was like, oh, this is how I'm gonna die.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's one of us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I get stuck. I get stuck in the bathroom, and that's how I can't get help. So finally she gets out. She yanks the door open. She gets out. She fumbles to throw on the hallway light. The lights are dead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She crawls. She gets to the phone. Phone's dead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So then she finds her cell phone. It's alive. She brings it back into the bathroom, and she calls 91 1.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that night, a man named Richard Everett was working, was the dispatcher. He had just gotten onto his shift.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Heroes. They're all heroes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this is 4am when this started. So. So I guess he was starting a very early morning shift them mid, maybe middle of night, I don't know. So she explains to him what's happened, and he just starts telling her, you're going to be fine. Just try to stay calm. Don't talk that much. We just keep it. The cops and the ambulance are on their way right now. They're going to be there really soon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, we could listen to this right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It would be fine. There's no fucking way I would ever listen to it. I know. And she's saying, I'm bleeding so much, you please make sure they hurry or whatever. And he's like, they're coming there as fast as they can. Just hold that washcloth. You're going to be okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And So after, like, 10 minutes, he's just talking her down, and she's actually starting to calm down, and she's feeling okay. There's a knock at the door.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she's like, there's someone's knocking at the door. And he's like, who is it? And she goes, well, hold. So she yells from the bathroom, who is it? And he says, this is Brian Gibson, the security guard that's on. On duty tonight. No, I just got attacked by a guy who jumped off your balcony. Are you okay?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that true? Is it true?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she doesn't know. So she's like, he. He goes, are you okay? You. You should let me in. And. And she goes, I'm okay. I'm talking to 911 right now. And the dispatcher on 911 goes, wait, what's going on? And she goes, no, it's okay. It's the security guard. He wants me to let him in. And Richard Everett, for no reason except for gut, goes, do not let him in the door. And she goes, no, it's Pinkerton Security. That's the whole apartment. Like, that's the whole setup here. And he goes, he. He said, here's the thing. We haven't notified security at your apartment complex yet, so unless they have a police scanner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but if you saw someone jumping off the. Doesn't matter. Matter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What is he going to do?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We don't know about that story, but he goes, we just don't know what that is, so just don't let him in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she's like, I'm not going to let you in right now. And the guy's like, it's. I swear it's okay. I'm. Here's my badge, you know, like, he's. He's like, I just need to help you. Are you. You. You know, are you bleeding? There's blood out here, you know, I want to make sure that you're okay. And she's like, I'm fine. The cops are on their way. And he's like, I know. I can hear the alarms, you know, I know cpr. I can help you, whatever. And. And. And he goes, I'm sorry. I just. The dispatcher says to Jennifer, I just don't think you should let him in. And she's like, okay. I'm really scared, though. I'm starting to lose blood. I'm Getting lightheaded.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm gonna have a coochie twins. This is so exciting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, what if I. What if I pass out and I'm in here and the door's locked?

[Georgia Hardstark]

They kick it down, it's fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so he's just. He just keeps talking to her. And he's like, just listen to the sound of my voice. I'm watching the cops drive up the street. They are three minutes away. You just have to hang on for three more minutes. And meanwhile, the guy's like, jennifer, can you talk to me? Are you okay? You know, can you just let me in? And so he wouldn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If he was supposed to be there, he wouldn't be so insistent. He would. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, well, but it's a woman who's bleeding and there's blood. It's like, clearly there's a scenario. Now if you were a security guard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you knew a woman had just gotten attacked with a knife, you would.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kick the door down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she's in there bleeding out and freaking out and not letting anybody help her. You might kick the door down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But Richard's like, I don't know. So just don't do it. Well, then the knocking starts getting harder. He's like, you need to let me in here. And she. Then she's starting to freak out because now she doesn't trust anybody. She has no idea what to do. But then suddenly she hears. Hears the sirens in the background. So she knows the police. And he's like, do you hear the sirens? They are. They are coming up the driveway road. She's like, yes. And he goes, so the ambulance is there. Like, you are going to live. You're fine. So just keep that door shut and you will be fine. Well, the knocking stops.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's totally silent outside of the door. So now she's more scared because she's like, what the fuck is it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When the cops pull up to this apartment complex complex, this security guard, Brian Gibson, meets them out there and he is a mess. He is bleeding from his right hand. There's blood on his face. There's blood on his uniform. And he tells the police his story that he walked up, he saw a guy, he jumped down from her second story balcony and attacked him. They got into this fight, and the guy ran off into the woods, like into. Into a field over on the side. And he didn't see where he went. And then he went up to check on the lady who will not him in who's freaking out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the cops are like, all right, stay here. Sounds good. They start to check everything out. There's no trail into the grass is dewy. It's 6:00am no, not nothing. So they're like, get that guy and put him in a room over there. They go up to Jennifer's apartment. The. The ambulance has already taken her away. She's going to live.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because the show was called I Survived. She told the story her. Herself with a big old scar on her neck. She's gorgeous. This woman is like, gorgeous and a lawyer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she's the best.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's killing it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The cops go into her apartment. There's blood everywhere. There's also a Pinkerton hat and there's men's underwear on the ground and a knife on. So they pick up all this and they go back down to Brian Gibson, the secure. The Pinkerton security guard that works there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. How is that in there?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they say, can you take your shirt off off, please? And he's like, no, I. No, it's fine. I was actually the one that was attacked. And they're like, take your shirt off. There's claw marks all over his body.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's not wearing underwear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nope.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He has shaved his pubic hair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No pubic hair, meaning no hair left behind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's exactly right. And he doesn't have a hat because he was the person, the security guard at the apartment building where she lived.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did he have keys to everyone?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everywhere was. Well, he didn't have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He must have had keys to get into her house or some key or he could have, like. I mean, he had total access to her. Oh, sorry. That was the most upsetting thing that I read is. No, no. But I just forgot it. It's. He was calling her by her first name when he was talking to her before he. When he was first on her, which I think is one of other. The other reasons she got so freaked out and fought so hard is because it's like, what the Y is going on?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Guess how much I'm sleeping tonight. Zero.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But she survived, it turns out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they arrest him. He gets 20 years for attempted murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Man, what the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he's on parole now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? No. I'm gonna in Texas jump off my second story balcony.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's on parole in Texas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When is attempted murder gonna be treated like what it was intended to. To be?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like murder? You mean murder, Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is so troubling to me that it's like. Well, you didn't get away with it. So you're not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because she lived.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Simply because she fought. So you. You don't. You don't deserve the punishment of what you were intending to do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also, the cops are positive that if she had let him in when he came back the next time to quote, unquote, check on her, he would have killed her and picked up all his. He left behind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's. That is absolutely there. The cops are positive that's the reason.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So did. What's the name of the guy, the. The 901 dispatcher? Did he get.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Richard Everett?

[Georgia Hardstark]

All of the ribbons and whatnot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're still friends to this day. He went to her wedding? Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. They're. They're close friends.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm gonna cry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And she talks about him when in her episode of I Survived, she. The way she talks about him is, like, one of the sweetest things you've ever seen. You can't deal with that because he. In the worst moment of her life, like, saved her life essentially in that way that, like, beautiful things happen, too. Hideous fucking things. And she went on to become the trauma support. The director of Trauma Support Services of North Texas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gorgeous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she. I read a thing. She went around. I mean, it was 2015, I think, when the article. What the article is from 2013 or 2015. She was going around speaking at schools and telling people horrible things happen in life, but it's all about what you're prepared, how you're prepared for them. And basically she gave this talk that was kind of like the stuff that we talk about, which is like running scenarios and thinking about these things can actually help you not panic and not completely lose it when something really upsetting happens. Because you kind of run a scenario, you know, where your cell phone is. You. You have things planned. You know where flashlights are. Like, you have things planned out a little bit so you at least can put a plan together.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a good way to, like, to make sense of your anxiety and that, like. Well, maybe someday this anxiety or this thing that me thinking about these awful things happening is going to make me better in a. In a situation where. Where I need to not fucking panic because I've already ran the scenario through my head or. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also it can take away from that. Like, you don't need to beat yourself up for thinking about it. You don't need to tell yourself you're crazy for thinking about it. You're smart for thinking about it, and you're Empowered for thinking about it. And you're taking action. It's not, you know, you don't have to live in it and shut the door. You go out in your life knowing that you are armed with information and having an awareness.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Awareness and that security that you, you know, you've done as much as you can with your anxiety to prepare yourself, but you're not letting it take over your life. Yeah. And get in the way. Like you're never, you're not gonna never leave the house again because you're aware of all these fucking terrible things that happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also it's like this isn't a story about how all security guards are evil because a lot of them do just as good shit as Richard Everett, the 911 dispatcher did. A lot of them have, you know, good. That good intentions of. I took this job because I want to help people for this exact reason. But you take it on a case by case basis.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So if you meet a person, you get the weird feeling in your gut. Absolutely trust yourself and just get out of there. You know what I mean? You don't. That's. That's what all that's about. It's like to the individual, arm yourself with knowledge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But don't let that overwhelm you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And also take a break every once in a while. And like the other day some girls, like I had a. She tweeted I had a hard day at work. I'm gonna drink wine and watch. I survived. And I wrote back, drink wine and watch Bob's Burger. If you already had a bad day, relax.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a great suggestion.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Take a break, watch fucking Rosemary in Time. Where it's a lot of nice flowers, a lot of great accents. It's chill. You can. Don't live in it. Like, like visit and then, and then go somewhere else for a while.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a beautiful take. Have a glass of wine and watch Bob's Burgers is like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bob's Burgers is the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It makes me so happy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is the most perfect show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's positive. It's a family that loves each other. That's funny. That isn't perfect at all. And it's hilarious, relatable.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My six year old nephew is obsessed with Bob's Burgers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The songs they write for that show are the best comedy songs there are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is my favorite.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How they come up with those every episode boggles my mind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoever their musical. I should look it up right now. Whoever their musical director is fucking straight up 1,000 props to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's. And that's Karen. That was. You tell those stories so well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's almost like I'm not cheating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When I am.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you? I wouldn't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is a podcast where some of the time I just retell TV shows I watch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But you say that, but you tell them you don't read them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's true. Because I've seen that one. Jennifer's. I've watched probably five times because she tells it. It's so compelling. She's so real. She's upset at certain points. She's very angry and very self righteous at certain points. It's a fucking awesome thing to behold. She's a great survivor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You tell it to me like we're at a party together. Whereas if I did mine, it would be like so missing elements of it because I can't remember half the shit that, like, I have to kind of like go off my own notes, which I don't copy and paste, but you know, I lead with them, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but I mean, I'm just copying her. Her story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that's. That's stories, though. You just. Yeah, that's how I learned to tell stories. Is just both of my parents, that's all they did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's like we're sitting by a fire.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Two cavemen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Two cavemen sitting by fire.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tales as old as time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The only thing we have to eat are cookies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, did someone come running from?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't say it right. Oh, he's just. He's Jabba the Hut right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Guys, thanks for listening. Do all the things that you're supposed to do and support. We love you. We couldn't be doing better. And. And it's because you guys all listen and support and do all the things we always ask you to do. We couldn't thank you more for that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The best listener. Like, you guys are the best.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We are so lucky.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We are so fucking lucky. Just make sure that you stay sexy and you don't get murdered. Elvis, you want a cookie? You want a cookie? Okay. We are back. Wow. And I know you have an update. It's epic. Tell us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So as Georgia was talking about, of course, you listeners really reacted to this story and really loved it. And then basically Jennifer Mori herself heard about this episode, and this is a story she told us backstage in Dallas, I believe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dallas. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When she came on to our live. We invited her to the live show, but we first got an email from her and that was one of the scariest moments where truly it Was fully like, now I understand what we're doing and the reality of what we're doing. And I think that this is, like, truly the beginning of a shift, because all of the kind of conjecture, far away feeling that we had about the topics we were talking about and the people we were talking about, it was the wave after wave of lessons over and over of, like, real people, real experiences, real relatives, real survivors, all those things. So that email from Jennifer Mori, I was like, oh, she's gonna be able to take that down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She said. Basically, my friend said that she had heard this podcast and they told my story, and I was really nervous. I sat down and listened, and I loved it. And I, like, I was so moved. And thank you so much. And it was her telling us thank you. And it was. I was so grateful. I was like. It was amazing. So then when we went to Dallas, we knew that's where she lives. So we were like, if you in any way want to be there, we would love to. If you want to just watch it, if you want to come on stage. And so she came backstage, she walked on stage as our surprise guest at the end of that show in Dallas, and the audience went insane. And then she. You can listen to episode 95. You can listen to all of it, how it went. Episode 95 is a live show called Jesus with a G. And Jennifer Moore gives people a pep talk at the end. That's one of the most beautiful things that I'm so grateful of all the things I'm grateful for because of this podcast, because of us doing this and the way it's gone, good or bad, the fact that that moment happened, I think is like, those are the things. To me then it was like, oh, we just need to start doing stuff like this, and this will be right. This will be the legacy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We did her right. And that felt so good. I remember the whole show. I was so nervous the entire time to invite her. And she's a lawyer, too, which is just like, you just are always nervous around lawyers because you're gonna say the wrong fucking thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. And also, yeah, she had the right to come on and say whatever. If she wanted to come on and say, hey, you guys are really. And I think you should do a different thing. We would have loved to have received that as well.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Definitely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We just kind of wanted the fact that she even wanted to be there. We really loved. But then how she was was just very much what I have seen a lot of times, at least of the survivors on I survived the people who are, like, truly stronger than they were before. And it's just like, she is such an inspirational person and she got to kind of represent herself fully and freely. It was great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah. All right. That was powerful. So should we wrap this up?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let's wrap it up. When I saw I remembered this title. I love George's cat, Mimi a lot. She's really. She's an iconoclast and she's a rebel, and she has the tiniest cat mouth that's ever existed in the cat species.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Angry heart, tiny mouth. She's gonna live forever out of spite to Cookie and Mo. Like, just to spite them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she's. But. So we named this podcast. What about Mimi?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but if we were naming it today, which we always name it after something that happened in the episode, here's a couple options.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let's see. I apologize for calling the British. The British crime series Rosemary in Time, which is from probably 1998, I would guess. I called that a grandma crime show. And so in Corrections Corn, I said I loved seeing people take the time to drink tea and eat cookies in British procedurals. So the suggestion is drink tea and eat cookies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's a solid one. And then our whole gift conversation and not doing it, that would be called friendship rules. And I think friendship rules are an important part of adult friendships. So let's do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very true. How about we respect some boundaries? Yeah, come on, get involved.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks for listening, you guys, to rewind. We appreciate it. We hope you like it. We hope you keep listening. We'll keep making them. So let us know in the comments.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's also, besides this old episode, there's like 400 others, as Georgia was saying. So, you know, just enjoy the back catalog as much as you'd like to and stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

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