Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 37: Liminal Space

Summary

Episode Summary: Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 37: Liminal Space

Release Date: March 19, 2025

In Episode 37 of "Rewind with Karen & Georgia," hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark delve into chilling true crime stories that underscore the dark intersections between reality television and real-life tragedies. This episode, aptly titled "Liminal Space," revisits past content with fresh commentary, offering listeners both updated insights and reflective discussions on the cases explored.

---

1. Introduction to "Rewind with Karen & Georgia"

Karen and Georgia introduce the concept of the show, explaining that each Wednesday they revisit previous episodes, providing new perspectives, updates, and in-depth analyses. This format allows longtime fans and new listeners alike to gain a deeper understanding of the stories previously covered.

---

2. Main Story Recap: Ruth Talia Saez and "El Valor de la Verdad"

A. The Reality Show: "El Valor de la Verdad"

"Launched on October 6, 2016," the Peruvian reality show "El Valor de la Verdad" (translated as "The Value of the Truth") serves as the backdrop for this harrowing tale. The show's premise involves contestants answering increasingly personal questions while connected to a polygraph, with their honesty determining their monetary rewards.

Karen (03:11): "It's the space you get into when you're unsure or upset... called liminal space. When you're in that place, your brain is working at peak performance."

B. Contestant Spotlight: Ruth Talia Saez

Ruth, a 19-year-old university student from a working-class area in Peru, joins the show to fund her aspiration of opening a salon. Accompanied by her supportive parents, Leoncio and Vilma, and her 20-year-old boyfriend, Brian Leva—a cab driver with a stutter—the stage is set for intense personal revelations.

Throughout the show, Ruth faces probing questions about her past, relationships, and personal struggles. Notably:

• Question (15:53): "Have you ever accepted money for sex?"

  Ruth's Answer: "Yes. We needed money. It hasn't happened since and it won't happen again."

Her truthful confession, verified by the polygraph, prompts emotional reactions from her family and boyfriend, pushing Ruth to withdraw from the competition after securing approximately $5,300—a sum equivalent to nearly ten months' wages in Lima.

C. The Aftermath and Tragic Disappearance

Barely eight weeks post-premiere, on September 11, 2012, Ruth mysteriously vanishes. The media frenzy intensifies as her body is discovered buried in a well-covered area on the outskirts of Lima, owned by Brian's uncle.

Investigation Highlights:

• Initial Confession: Brian confesses to the murder, alleging a heated argument turned violent.

  Georgia (05:44): "I'm fucking broken."

• Karen (05:44): "You do hear about so many people who are like, they never had a violent offense. They just forged checks and it's like, well, that's..."

However, further investigation reveals Brian's false confession. Witness testimonies, including that of Brian's uncle, expose the true motive: theft of the show's winnings. Both Brian and his uncle are convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment, underscoring the manipulative dangers lurking within reality TV formats.

Georgia (25:23): "Eight weeks after the premiere of the show on September 11, 2012, Ruth Talia disappears."

---

3. Secondary Story: The Case of Dorothea Puente

Transitioning from Ruth's tragic story, Karen recounts the infamous case of Dorothea Puente, a Sacramento-based boarding house operator who became one of America's most notorious serial killers.

A. Background and Modus Operandi

Born in 1929, Puente faced early-life traumas, losing both parents by the age of nine and spending time in an orphanage before marrying at 16. Her troubled past manifested in manipulative and criminal behaviors, including check forging and, ultimately, multiple murders.

Puente operated a boarding house, targeting the elderly and disabled. She exploited social welfare systems by:

• Accepting tenants who were vulnerable and often unable to defend themselves.
• Collecting their Social Security checks, pocketing the surplus.
• Drugging and murdering her tenants, subsequently hiding their bodies in her backyard.

Karen (51:11): "Ruth Talia Saez... It hasn't happened since and it won't happen again."

B. Investigation and Capture

Persistent disappearances and suspicious activities eventually drew警方的注意。In 1988, investigators excavated her property after reports of missing persons, uncovering seven bodies buried under her backyard. Further investigation linked her to additional fatalities, leading to her conviction for nine murders.

Georgia (62:33): "Dorothea Puente's house was sold at an auction... today, the homeowners lean into the house's macabre history."

Puente was sentenced to life imprisonment without parole and remained incarcerated until her death in 2011.

---

4. Comparative Analysis: Reality TV's Dark Side

Karen and Georgia draw parallels between "El Valor de la Verdad" and other sensational reality TV shows like "Jenny Jones," highlighting how such formats can exploit individuals' vulnerabilities, leading to tragic outcomes. They discuss the ethical implications of producing content that pushes contestants into emotionally perilous situations for entertainment and ratings.

Georgia (31:40): "It's totally exploitation of people."

---

5. Additional Reflections and Updates

Beyond recaps, Karen shares insights from her television industry experiences, emphasizing the persistent allure and inherent dangers of reality-based programming. She touches upon her interactions with various show participants and casting dynamics, shedding light on the pressures and manipulations behind the scenes.

The hosts also briefly revisit the Dorothea Puente case, discussing its lingering impact on the Sacramento community and the macabre transformation of her former boarding house into a site of morbid tourism.

---

6. Conclusion and Personal Updates

Wrapping up the episode, Karen and Georgia share personal anecdotes, reflecting on their growth, friendships, and the ongoing journey of producing the podcast amidst life's challenges. They emphasize the importance of human connection and express gratitude towards their listeners for unwavering support.

Georgia (71:44): "I had this really great conversation and I felt a lot better after it and kind of feel like I've made a friend."

They conclude with light-hearted banter, maintaining the show's signature blend of humor and heartfelt conversation despite the heavy themes discussed.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Karen (03:11): "When you're in that place, your brain is working at peak performance."
• Georgia (15:53): "Eight weeks after the premiere of the show on September 11, 2012, Ruth Talia disappears."
• Georgia (31:40): "It's totally exploitation of people."
• Georgia (71:44): "I had this really great conversation and I felt a lot better after it and kind of feel like I've made a friend."

---

This episode of "Rewind with Karen & Georgia" serves as a poignant reminder of the thin line between entertainment and exploitation, urging audiences to critically examine the content they consume and its real-world repercussions.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On March 20th.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What do you know about the Happy Face Killer? He's my father. It's so good to see you, Missy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Experience the thrilling new series.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He said he killed another woman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Inspired by a true life story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If I don't deal with him, he will never leave us alone. You don't see how the word same to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Annalee Ashford and Dennis Quaid star.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I am not responsible for what my dad did. This going how you hoped.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Happy Face new series streaming March 20, exclusively on Paramount. With the best all inclusive vacation deals to Mexico and the Caribbean. Booking your getaway with Cheap Caribbean Vacations.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Means you have more freedom to do your deal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whether you want to enjoy snorkeling, endless margaritas and more, or simply soak up the sun and sand in a tropical paradise, Cheap Caribbean Vacations has your deal for that. Plan and book the exact way you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Want at exactly the right price for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You by using our exclusive budget beach finder. Or find a featured all inclusive package to Iberostar Hotel and Resorts in Jamaica and do your [e-mail]. payPal lets you pay all your pals like your graduation gifters.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who's paying for the mattress topper? You mean the beanbag chair? Aren't we getting a mini fridge? Can we create a pool on PayPal? It lets us collect the money before we buy. Ooh, yes, that's smart.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Glad we can agree on something easily.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pool split and Send Money with PayPal. Get started in the PayPal app. A PayPal account is required to send and receive money. A balance account is required to create a pool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is Wednesday, and that means that we're recapping one of our old shows with all new commentary and updates and insights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Beautiful insights. And today we're recapping episode 37, which we named Liminal Space.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Remember?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So join us now as we take you back to October 6, 2016. This was a. A wonderful year for podcasting, as well as, ironically, for Drake. He was dating Rihanna. He had no idea what the future held for him. That he be viciously, viciously roasted at a Super Bowl.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Named and fucking roasted.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Named and shamed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'm there for it. So let's listen to the intro of episode 37. Let's settle in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How do I look from this angle?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's very odd.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's weird, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

We switched seats tonight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it's good for the liminal space. Creative upset.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know about that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, there's this thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can't. I talked about it. Oh, maybe it on the other podcast that I have. 7.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry, you have another.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I didn't tell you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We haven't discussed that. So let's cut. Cut. Can we cut?

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's a thing they call. It's the space that you get into when you're unsure or you're upset or like right after something shocking happens or whatever. It's. They call it liminal space. And when you're in that place, your brain is working, like at peak. At top performance. So that's why it's good if you're a creative person. If you get too comfortable in anything or feel too secure, it's bad because then you can't. The thoughts don't come the right way. But if you get into a thing. That's why sometimes in standup, when you're on stage, you know you're gonna open with a couple jokes, but then you go into something new and weird because you can come up with something you didn't even know you were thinking of. That's cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So as you're saying, stop going to the same CA for me every day and ordering two scrambled eggs and a side of fruit and an Americano every single fucking day of my life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I mean, are you writing somewhere near there or like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I would. Or you could order something different or go to a different cafe. Just do something that will make you uncomfortable so that your brain works differently.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it. I'm doing it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Getting out of a pattern.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's what this is right now, Georgia. This of you and I looking at each other from a totally different perspective.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, we just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Different couches.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Switch couches, everyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's not that big of a deal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Actually, it is. Like, from the very beginning, that's how we've done it. So this is neat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, episode 37, it's going to be all about, like, the brand new thing. Also, now we're talking about the Bible, so open your.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's so much murder in the Bible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There really is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We should do a biblical episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That would be. That would be so boring. That would just put me back to, like, fucking grammar and high school. Like, these stories again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Scream my story at you, too. The whole story's gonna be in caps at you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like the angriest nun in all of St. Francis Grammar School.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Okay, this is our first. So I was thinking that this is our first episode. Back from the last episode was the live episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which was so awesome. It went really well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? It went well. Which I can now tell you that I'm surprised. Are you serious? Yeah. Because I was like, who the fuck knows what this is gonna be like? You and I sitting here talking about stuff. We know what that. What that amounts to, but, like, having people react in real time and whether or not they were going to. I mean, obviously, if they were there, they were slightly on board.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Those people, I'm not worried about. It's like. Does it translate to, like. I'm gonna be totally honest. I don't fucking listen to live episodes of podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. I don't either.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No way. I'm like, that. That doesn't. That doesn't translate. I'm not going to do that. I don't want to hear you, like, pointing at things and talking about them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Or. Yeah. Or just having a whole experience without me. Because in these, it feels like when I listen to podcasts, I'm like, I'm there, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the whole fun of it, I think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, yes, I. But I also. I was just nervous, and I kind of was like. I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was nervous about me. Because you've never seen me on stage before.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I'm too much of a narcissist to be nervous about you. I mean, let's. I was like, you're on your own.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sink or swim. I gotta get mine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what? I think? What if we added Dave Anthony permanently to the podcast?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, we probably shouldn't talk about this right now, but Dave. I did a show with Dave Anthony the other night, and he was like, I think we should start doing, like, every three months.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We all. We all do all our podcasts together.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was like a. That was great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also, that was my sister's suggestion. I swear to God, she's batting a thousand. She was like, dave was so funny on your show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't think I add a lot to the dollop. I just like laughing at whatever the fuck Garrett says.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You do, though. You do. But here's the thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's learning to elbow your way into comedy conversations.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Takes a. Takes a while.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's scary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's scary. And also, it's that thing of, like, well, am I going to stop? This is the thing I'm going to say. Going to be worth it to stop what's happening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a really hard thing to do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Interrupting people, especially people who are like. Like, fucking legit comedians that have been doing this for years and years is not my thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's. Well, and also if you do it and it's like a. Like a half tepid response, it makes you never want to say anything again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like a stupid idiot. Yeah. When people would laugh when I said something, I wanted to go hug and each and every one of them so much. You guys don't understand how hard this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is for me, but you did great. It didn't seem like you were having a hard time at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I had a lot of fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I did feel bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck it. Once you're in the moment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. Well. And it's for fun. Those guys love you. Dave thinks you're fucking hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You'd never say that to my face, but I appreciate it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, he can't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's got emotional problems.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone go the dollop live their last one. We're guests on it. So if you really fucking love the live episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's how we warmed it up. That's how we heated it up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was nice. Yeah. So the live episode. And that was awesome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was super fun. And also we get to meet a bunch of people, which was very cool. Afterwards, which I have to say, I went backstage because I was like, I don't want to meet people. I don't think I'll be good at it. I don't like the idea of it. And then I was standing back there and you were already talking to somebody. And then I'm like, what am I doing? That's not allowed. And then the second I walked out, whoever the first person I was that talked to, I was just like, hey, what's going on? And they were so regular and normal. It wasn't like I had to do anything. It was just like having a nice conversation with a person that was happy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've had years and years of experience of talking to strangers. Cause Allie and I do the cocktail food thing and you go to these cocktail parties and food parties and you have to fucking just talk to people. And it's scary and hard, but the more you do it, the more you're just used to it. And it's not a big deal, especially strangers. But what was I gonna say? I don't. I guess this would be a good. Oh, and the episode before that was the JonBenet episode. So it wasn't like a regular format.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So this is like the first time we've done a regular format. Like we're back from.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For a long time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, from camp.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's been. That's right, it's been. My legs are really tan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My legs don't tan, only my arms. And I'm burnt on the back of my neck. It's weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I'm starting to wear this necklace all the time that I never wore before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Even a friendship bracelet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's camp stuff. It's camp stuff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's good luck when it falls off on, you know those fucking bracelets that people. Oh, fuck you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Kabbalah. Oh, fuck you, Madonna.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I just mean, like, when you go to some party and it's, like, sponsored by a company and they're like, put this bracelet on and when it falls off, your wish will come true. And I just. Like, it's falling off when I rip it off of my fucking arm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It always. That stuff always makes me want to go, yeah, well, since no wishes that I can think of, like, stuff like this has ever come true, I don't need your bracelet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry. Wishes aren't a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sorry to tell you this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry to tell everyone. Karma and wishes are not true. Oh, God. Everyone just hung up on the podcast. Like, half the women just hung up on this podcast. Sorry. I'm sorry. Mercury's in retrograde. What can I say?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wishes aren't true. It's not, actually. Oh, there's a. At work, there's a website called Is Mercury in retrograde? And it either says yes or no. And we look it up all the time because people are constantly making that joke. And then we're like, wait, let's just check and see if it really is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So you actually know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just almost spit this drink out of my nostrils when you said that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because it really is. No, because someone made that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I just love that. That's such a great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the best.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love when people make simple, hilarious, stupid things. Kat Solon, our friend who's a director, is a true crime enthusiast. Fucking sounds as a shit person. I begged her to make us a new design for our shirts, and she did it. And they look freaking incredible. They look like an old 1960s pulp fiction book cover. And I'm so happy with them and really cool. We're going to keep posting new sayings and people can vote for what the sayings they want it to. Oh, did you know? Did you see the. What they voted for? They voted for. Fuck politeness to be the next one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, cool. Cool. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyways, yeah, I didn't know there was voting going on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just fucking Decided one day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sweet. You went totally rogue.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry. I was gonna pass it by you. Of course.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't. Please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, of all the things I try to care about. Vote away. I feel like we talked about that a while ago.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I just didn't. I feel like I'm missing out on life. If there was any tone in that, it was not to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm spending a lot of time. And this is not a complaint because I love my job, but it's the kind of thing where every once in a while, like, I'll pick up my phone and look at email and I'll watch you talking to all these people where I'm just like, thank fucking God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because that I'm a control freak and just deal with, like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, just. I'm very grateful for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. You have a hard job. I can't wait to have you for myself again. We can go get tuna fucking melts at Cafe101.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For real. It's been so long.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can pick. Take your fries out and eat all your fries.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can have all the fries. I can't eat fries anymore.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yay. Good. I can't wait until you're free again. I'm happy and I love your job, and I'm so happy for you, and it's great. Fuck, I'm lying. I fucking want you for myself. And I want my favorite be the only thing that matters in your life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that would be nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It will be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it's also cool because it's whatever. It's nice to have a job that actually takes up all my time and brain. But then there's things like that where just like, oh, is that what's happening? Good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that Daddy has a job, but we miss daddy at home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Daddy wants to come home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what I'm saying. Hey, let's take a quick pee break and then get started.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great. The idea that I stated the words fuck you, Madonna is a shame to me. It brings shame to my family. That is not the person I thought I was. That's not how I feel about Madonna.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, but people change. You change. You grow. You stop hating Madonna for whatever reason.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's true. I think I was going through a really dark time in my life, and I wanted to kind of, you know, forget about who I was and who I grew up as, which was a Madonna wannabe from day one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just really changed my life in every way. Don't go for second best.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At least we didn't make fuck You Madonna merch is all I'll say. I was smart enough to know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can you imagine? One time I made a boniva joke about Madonna on the Grammys. This was like 2018 or even earlier than that. Because it was kind of like the glory days of Twitter, man. Those Madonna fans. And I guess I'll just say it. Gay men came after me. Fuck you, bitch. Where I was like. And then I kind of looked at it. I was like, yeah, you know what? You're right. That's fine. I take it. I delete it. You're right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's peak. That's peak fame or peak influence. Influence that people will come after you for talking shit about someone they don't even know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which I feel like Murderinos kind of do that. And I'm so grateful for that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think they are Madonna level supporters.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think so, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we're very lucky.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We are so appreciative of everything you guys do for all that shit talking that goes on on the super bowl, on Twitter, on Instagram, to defend the indefensible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You go out there for your girls. Knowing. Knowing you're wrong. Of course I didn't mean. Fuck you, Madonna. She's hero.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, let's blame Mercury on retrograde, which, by the way, it is not right now, but it will be once this comes out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's blame Mercury on retrograde.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On retro. Is that what. Is that what it is?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that what we're supposed to blame?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's really spiritual. If you didn't know that about me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Actually, Allison Agosti, who writes these, shows up for us. Put it in the notes. Mercury is not in retrograde right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But she said that when this comes out, it will be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's currently.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not while we're speaking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. Okay, but when. You're right. But in next Wednesday, or maybe in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Three Wednesdays, whatever it is, whenever this is happening to your ears, it's in retrograde, so be careful. It's on retrograde. In retrograde. Around retrograde. Don't slip in the shower is all I'm saying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And if this is 2035, none of this applies to you. And obviously.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And how is your fucking. How's your battery pack?

[Karen Kilgariff]

How's your Judy Jetson skirt?

[Georgia Hardstark]

How are you even listening to this? All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Battery pack.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They definitely are wearing big batteries.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone is being charged by a battery pack.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so now it's time to get into the first story on this episode, Liminal Space. It's Georgia going first this week and covering The Ruth Taliasayas murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know how you can order groceries, book a flight or text a friend all from your phone? Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I'm doing all three right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, well, that's rude. But with Talkspace, you can also talk to a licensed licensed therapists anywhere you have cell service. While therapy can be costly, Talkspace is affordable and in network with most insurance providers, most insured members have a $0 copay. Karen, where would you and I be without therapy in our lives?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I think we would be in the middle of a fight, probably.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Face down, crying in the middle of a fight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The amazing thing about what Talkspace offers is that therapy can be incredibly intimidating for people whose family doesn't do it, who aren't used to it, don't talk about things. And that journey can a million miles when you are just starting out. And the idea that there's something this convenient right on your phone to help you start is such a great idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's everything. Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, makes getting the help you need easy, accessible and affordable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As a listener of this podcast, you'll get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com mfm and enter promo code SPACE80 to match.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With a licensed therapist. Today, go to talkspace.com mFM and enter promo code SPACE80 to get 80 off your first month and show your support.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Show that's talkspace.com mfm promo code SPACE80. Growing up, Melissa had what looked like a perfect life. Loving family, great friends.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Until the day it all came crashing down when she discovered her father's dark secret. He was the notorious Happy face killer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On March 20, Paramount presents the thrilling new original series Happy Face. Inspired by a true life story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

After years without contact, Melissa's father reaches out to confess another murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But there's a twist. Another man is already on death row for the same crime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now Melissa must choose between keeping her secret and protecting her perfect life or unraveling an unsolved mystery to save an innocent man and decide how far she'll go to uncover the truth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Annaleigh Ashford and Dennis Quaid star in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Happy Face, new series streaming March 20, exclusively on Paramount Plus Dating. It's basically a workout. You know, your heart rate goes up, you're mentally dodging red flags. And if they start explaining blockchain, you might literally need to run.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is where Lumi's sweat control deodorant comes in. Clinically proven to fight odor and keep sweat in check for up to 72 hours. Because it's February, love is in the air, but body odor does not need to be. And Lume was created by an ob GYN who saw firsthand how body odor negatively impacts people's confidence and quality of life. And she thoughtfully formulated it without parabens or baking soda. And it's pH balanced. Lume starter pack is perfect for new customers. It comes with a solid stick deodorant cream tube deodorant, two free products of your choice like mini body wash and deodorant wipes, and free shipping as a special offer for listeners. New customers get 15% off all Lumi products with our exclusive code.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And if you combine the 15% off with the already discounted starter pack, that equals over 40% off their starter pack.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Use code SVU for 15% off your first purchase at lumideodorant.com that's code SVU@L U M E D E O D.

[Georgia Hardstark]

O R A N T Please support.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our show and tell them we sent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence from head to toe with Lumi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So let's see who went first four episodes ago.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God. I want to say I don't care. You want to go first? You want me to go first?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whatever you want, it's your choice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, I'm gonna go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that rude?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. So this one actually speaking of Cat Solon who made our shirts sign, she sent this to me and I'd never heard of it. And it's pretty bananas too. Okay. All right. So we start with 19 year old Ruth Talia Saez. Let me start. We start with 19 year old Ruth Talia Sayas. She was raised on the outskirts of the capital in a working class area of Peru. So outside of a working class area of Peru and she was studying at a local university and she lived with her family like normal girl, cute girl, regular 19 year old. On Saturday, July 12, 2012, she was the very first contestant on the new reality show that was like a quiz show called El valor de la verdad, which is translated to the value of the truth. You knew that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just wanted to guess because I've never taken Spanish.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Me neither.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know what verdad means.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's a new reality quiz show that's just come to Peru. The show's premise is that a contestant is asked a series of personal questions, like during an interview, a private interview with a production company or the producers varying seriousness the questions and they're hooked up to a fucking polygraph.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the contestant is later asked the same questions, but in front of a crazy studio audience. And it's like, what's that? The money show? Do you want to be a millionaire?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who wants to be a millionaire?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's like that kind of seriousness level with like lights and shit. So they're given their questions again and their answers are voted by the polygraph whether they're true or not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So for each truthful response that they give, they win money. If they lie according to the polygraph test, they lose all the money they made so they can keep going with questions. And if they're correct and they are not lying about them, they win money. And the questions get more and more personal as the show goes on. And the contestant has the option of calling it off after each answer. So if they've only won a certain amount, they can be like. And they've answered like some really personal question, they're like, I'm done. So she's the very first contestant on this show, this little 19 year old university student. And she went on because she wanted to open a salon and she had already saved a ton of money, but she needed the money from the show to bring her closer to buying that salon. And she was like, okay, making a spectacle of herself to get the money. So every contestant gets to bring on, or has to bring on three guests to the show who are like sitting there being interviewed and filmed the whole time she's answering these personal questions. So she brings her parents, it's Leoncio and Vilma, and they're like sweet baby angels. I watched it and the dad said that he was afraid of what I might learn about my daughter when he was introduced. But they were all jovial. They were all like, this is gonna be fun. We're gonna win some money. No one thought it'd be that insane. Cause they thought their daughter was like a normal human being. Oh, no, I mean, you know. So the third guest was her boyfriend, Brian Leva. He was a 20 year old cab driver. He was raised down the road from Move Thalia. And he'd stuttered since an old boyfriend of his mother had pushed him down the stairs when he was only 8. So he's just like this normal dude, but he had a stutter. The host says, you seem nervous. What are you so nervous about? And he said that she may have cheated on me. And he was like very stone faced and like clearly nervous through the whole show. So here are the questions. Some of the questions she was asked. Have you ever skipped school without your Mother's knowledge. If you found 1,000 souls, would she return them? Souls, it's like money. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she revealed that she had 1,000 wandering souls.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Would you return them to their homes? She revealed she had a nose job and that she didn't like her body and that she wished she was white and that she was only with her boyfriend Brian, until someone better came along.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The one that was there, the cab.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Driver with the stutter. Yeah. And that she was ashamed of her parents manners and that she didn't actually work at a call center. Like they thought she danced at a nightclub. Oh, shit, here we go, Here we go. So the mom is begging her to stop. And at one point Brian says, I don't want to hear anymore. The boyfriend. So, okay, we're at question number 18. And she had won at this point with this question, she would have won the equivalent of 15,000, which is almost 10 months wages. Wait, no, no, no, I'm sorry. She could have went up to US$15,000 at that point she had won $5,300, which was almost 10 months wages in Lima. With this question, she'll win this. The question number 18 was, have you ever accepted money for sex? And she answers, yes. And the polygraph confirmed that it was true. And she says just twice. We needed money. We were in a bad situation, it hasn't happened since and it won't happen again. And her parents are like crying and like clearly shaken badly. It's fucked up, man. She said. So at that point she's like, I'm done. I'm not gonna win up to US$15,000. I can't do this anymore. I mean, I wonder what the other questions were. If I was like, that was the one that was only 15 or $5,000.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What were the other questions? Who knows? She says at the end, my mother, my father, my brother and sister are the most beautiful things in the world to me. I love them with all my heart. Brian, forgive me for making you go through this. And as the credits roll, she goes down on her knees before them and begs them for forgiveness. Her parents.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What the fuck kind of game show is this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So the show finally aired on Saturday, July 12th. Huge fucking hit, like, becomes number one. And she becomes like kind of a celebrity in that world, but not like in a good way. She's just like talked about all the time. And Brian, her boyfriend, becomes a public fool. And the Peru. In Peru, machoism is such a big thing. And he was humiliated in front of all these people and people People in the small town recognize him and kind of humiliate him. And he's like, fucking broken.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry. But did she get any of that money?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She got all the money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She won. What she like, she at least got.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She stopped. So she stopped after that. True question. Okay, so she was. She wasn't lying about having had money, had sex for money. So she stopped at basically our equivalent of $5,300. So he's being followed around by, like, by the media and being asked all these questions. Someone asked him how he felt about being made a fool, and he said, I'm ashamed. All the things I learned on that show. How would you feel? And the news person said, but they say that if you love someone, you can forgive them. And he says, depends on what they did. The things she said that day, I can't forgive. But then in other interviews, he says that it had all been a setup, that he and Ruth Tellia had broken up months before the taping, and she had asked him to pretend to be her boyfriend on TV and that she'd share the money with him, and he hadn't given her any of the money. So it sounds like he's making this shit up to make himself sound a little bit better. Right, because he's so fucking humiliated.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Eight weeks after the premiere of the show on September 11, 2012, Ruth Talia disappears.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So crazy media circus. All the news programs covered it in Lima, but one of the hosts called her the prostitute of El Valor de la Verdad. Like, she was known as, like, a whore. And nobody cared about it because of that. And her parents had to like, beg to get media attention and get this covered and to try to find their daughter. Eleven days after the disappearance, police find a body of a young woman buried in a well and covered by rocks and concrete on a piece of land on the outskirts of Lima. And that land belongs to Brian's uncle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm. So later that day. Oh my God, this is so fucked up. And there's video of this. So the media and the mother. I'm sorry, the father and the sister are at the site where they're excavating, trying to figure out if it's their sister and daughter. And the dad is on the phone, on his cell phone, like, crying, and it's awful. And it turns out that it is her and he's just like, losing it. And if you're sensitive, you shouldn't watch him break the fuck down. Then a reporter and her cameraman go to the home where Vilma the mother is sitting vigilant with some of her friends and doesn't yet know that it was her daughter that was found. And the reporter says she gave her her condolences and realized she didn't know about it. And then the reporter said, ma'am, they found your girl. So this fucking reporter told her, which is so ugly. So Brian's brought in for questioning, and he confesses. He says that he called Ruth Talia as she was leaving school, and they made plans to meet up. He says, I waited for her by the bridge. She got into my motor taxi, and I said, let's go have some wine. She says, okay. And they went to his house, his apartment that he rented, and they had sex. And afterwards they started to fight. And she says. She tells me, I don't know what I'm going. What I'm doing with a poor motor taxi driver. And he says, that's when I grabbed her by the throat. And that he admitted that he choked her for 30 seconds or more. And he says, I thought she had passed out. I listened to her heart. I didn't hear anything. I grabbed her and shook her, but nothing. I got scared. And during the trial, Brian's lawyer tried to pin the blame on the TV show, saying that they had humiliated him. And so Beto Ortiz, who's one of the most famous television journalists there, they called him to testify. So it was later found that the majority of his confession was false. And there was a witness who was a young boy from the neighborhood. And he said that the night she disappeared, Brian had paid him 50 sols to let him know when Ruth Talia got off the bus. And he said he had seen Brian and another man force her into his motor taxi. And the court determined that Brian's accomplice was his uncle, who owned the property where her body was found. And the motive was robbery. And they had tried to get Ruth Talia's bank security code so that they can get the winnings from the show for themselves. And they were both sentenced to life in prison. So then the second season of El Valor de la Verdad was they only had celebrity contestants because they said they can deal with the media, which is like, how could you even have a fucking second season? But at least that's that. And, oh, I wanted to say that a lot of this information, and it's really hard to find information. I mean, there's no. This isn't like a story I'd ever heard about before. So. The California Sunday Magazine by Daniel Alarcon. He wrote this really great story about it. And that's where I got a lot of this information and then all over the Internet as well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is crazy, dude. The idea, the idea that that show continued on after the first contestant was murdered, I mean, that's intense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Remember when Jenny Jones, the Jenny Jones show that a lot of young people won't remember was like one of those like 90s talk shows. Like Jerry Springer had on like a. It was like a confession episode of I'm in love with you. And. And a guy brought on his friend and told this guy that he was gay and he was in love with him and the guy he told shot and killed him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, I do know that story because my old boss was one of the eps on that show and had to go to court. That was like a huge scandal at Telepictures.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How heartbreaking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The company for that. No, it was horrible. And it's that kind of thing of like, what's the line? When you're producing tv, everything is as two numbers, butts and seats, eyes on screens. How do you do a show that's gonna make people watch it? And especially in those days of like the early days of Springer and Jenny Jones and all that shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's just keep going with this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, why did they have a hit? Oh, they had a hit because it's a girl who is exposed that it wasn't. That's not the baby daddy and blah, blah, blah. And now they're in a fistfight and all that shit. And that was the norm. So you had. They were trying to think of shows and produce shows that were exploiting people. The most exploitive.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, the article, the article I got a lot of this, like basic information from was really interesting. So the show that, this, that. The article that this is from, where they talk a lot about the actual show and how much it had to do with it and what like about reality shows in Peru was called the contestant from California Sunday magazine. And so they talk a lot about that. And it's just like, I mean, who would agree to say those things? But if you're in a poor fucking city and you need money, I mean, you'll do anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. It's total exploitation of people. And also that is such an ugly version. I think there was an American version of that show and it wasn't on for very long.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because you can't. The nature of a show like that is. Is scandal. So like, if people are admitting things that no one gives a shit about and no One wants to talk about and that aren't. That isn't like, borderline. Then you don't have a good show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they're not gonna find someone who's like, no. Never had. Never got paid for sex. Nope. I work in this place, you know, they find the most.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. They are only going to have people on there that are going to tell them what they want to hear and more. So. One of the weirdest things that I ever experienced in working in television is there is this very strange subset of people. And if you work in casting in, like, any kind of reality version of television, you know, there are people who try to get on every single show, and they're not. It's like, if it's a show about couples, they'll submit for that. If it's a show about, you know, whatever the fuck it is they want to. They want to be on TV matchmaking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or whatever the fuck they'll do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah. And they'll try to, like, they know TV well enough to know that they have to be interesting in certain personality types. Because it is a good way to make money if you, you know, if you're the right person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But then, obviously, did you just get one chance?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you would think. But, I mean, these are people that are just like, well, we'll go over here. Well, we'll try to be on the Amazing Race. Well, we'll try to be on the Marriage ref. Will we try to be on this? And that's what. When I worked on the second season, the Marriage Reflect, there was this one tape where they brought us down to casting. Cause they were like, you're never going to believe what you're about to see. And it's like this weird couple that. There's sexual overtones where you're like, they don't know that this is inappropriate, that this isn't gonna get them. It's just this weird shit. And one of the people in that casting department was like, oh, yeah, we had them. They tried to be on whatever show she had worked on before. And it's just like these people that are kind of like, we know we're kind of interesting and kind of weirdos and that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That, yeah, we're very different and we're wild and let's get on fucking television. People just want to get on television. Do you see that? The real world this season is like, everyone thinks they're just going on the real world, but for each person on the real world, they find their, like, enemy, and they have to live in the house too. And it's like, this show is interesting enough if you cast it well, these people are just gonna make their own fucking edit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then they come back and say, because no one's watching TV anymore, so they don't have good ratings, so it's not interesting enough to make a rating. And that's all anybody cares about. And because all of television is owned by, like, four companies, they have this insane grasp on the money. Who gets the money? The story is like, nobody has any money. But that's actually not true. They're making billions of dollars because even in, like, a depression, people still watch tv. People still, you know, advertising still works, but it's like, it's this. It's really sick and crazy, that kind of shit where you. Like that thing where you're watching TV and you're just like, oh, this doesn't. I don't feel like who I'm seeing is what I'm really seeing. So the idea that your story is about a person who actually did the thing, a real person and suffered by it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but she. I don't know if she felt. It didn't seem like she was. I mean, I guess she was kind of embarrassed and stayed at home a lot, but it's like, she didn't seem like she was. She seemed, like, confident about having done it for the right reason. For the reason which was to make her life better. Even though she, like, you know, tore her family apart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Well, you'd think that. That. That makes your life way worse also. Being murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, because that. Shame. Shame is the thing people can't deal with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, Jesus. No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shaming people. Especially, like you were saying, like. Like, at that culture where men have to be men, you can't come out and be like, yeah, yeah, sometimes I do this. Which is like, you know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not in a judgmental way of that person's lifestyle, but this is, like a cultural thing of where women are supposed to be, like, wives and mothers and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Especially here and in Peru, I feel like it's. You're not supposed to. That's not. It's, like, so much less accepted and understood than it is here as it is here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Crazy, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that's the thing, too. When you were saying, like, you should. You should watch it because he's all upset or whatever. I would never watch that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it bothered me a lot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I never watched that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because the fact that the cops didn't keep him away from the. From the cameras is upsetting. Like his daughter, his other daughter tries to shield his face a couple times, but there's nowhere to turn. Like, there's cameras on every. On every single angle of this man telling someone on the other line that they found his daughter. Like, there's nowhere for him to go to get out of the fucking. Out of the camera.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's disgusting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's really sick and sad. And then the woman who told the mother inadvertently.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The reporter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, the reporter. She quit doing news after that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. There's a thing in this article's life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, to get that story, or they.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Were like, go talk to her now. Go up to the room after she started crying and trying to get a conversation with her. And there's, like, some quotes in her from. In this article. It's, like, how awful she felt and that she quit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Oh, that's. Yeah. You don't want to sell your soul for one paycheck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

One byline. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. And we are back. Georgia, any updates? Anything about this case you can talk about?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No updates on this case. That is just so sad because, like, I feel like, as I was telling it, you just knew what was going to happen and what a mess was gonna be, and it's just so heartbreaking. I will say, though, that we mentioned the Jenny Jones show, where a romantic confession leads to murder, and I actually go on to cover that case in episode 40, which is called Squad Gourds.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which we're getting close to also. Daniel Ollercon, who wrote about this case in the California Sunday magazine, now teaches at Columbia Journalism school, and in 2021, he was awarded the MacArthur Genius Grant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Do you know how hard that is to get?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, but it's very hard to be a genius. So I feel like I can be like, well, I knew him first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that kind of. You're a genius.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that kind of like, I'm the genius who, like, knew that he was a genius.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're a genius spotter. And I think that's. That you're, like, a really good casting person where, like, they do not get the credit for literally making the movie come together the way it's supposed to come together.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you know what I love doing, though, when I watch a movie is talking over the movie. And one of the things I like to do is say, I wonder who auditioned for this part.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'll, like, be like, can you imagine so and so in this part? It would have been totally different.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. You know, which also is kind of a pointing. We shouldn't be talking about this. But here, this is my sidebar. Acting class Tip.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what people should be thinking about. As a person who was very bad at acting and auditioning, it was because I could not keep my eyes on the prize, which is you are supposed to be bringing something to the role that makes the role come alive. You're not supposed to be reciting the word so perfectly. Whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like I was always like, ugh, I'm sweating my upper lip. Is my upper lip sweating? Or whatever where they're like, no, you're supposed to. I saw, I think it's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who is she? Who is Pam from the office?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why is she so. Yeah, but like when you see people like Johnny. I saw an audition tape for Johnny Pemberton one time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, he's so funny.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it was like that guy that was the character walked in and sat down and was doing stuff and he's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, this is mine, this is me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just brilliant. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't act for shit, so that's really impressive for me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Anyway, let's get into some dark, deep shit because this is a famous one and I feel like I've heard about this story. Like I'd never heard about it when you told it. And since you told it. I hear about it all the time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause it's just brought up a lot because it's so, so mind boggling. This is Karen telling the story, the famous story of Dorothea Puente. You know how you can order groceries, book a flight or text a friend, all from your phone? Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I'm doing all three right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, well, that's rude. But with Talkspace, you can also talk to a licensed therapist anywhere you have cell service. While therapy can be costly, talkspace is affordable and in network with most insurance providers, most insured members have a zero dollar copay. Karen, where would you and I be without therapy in our lives?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I think we would be in the middle of a fight, probably.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Face down crying in the middle of a fight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The amazing thing about what Talkspace offers is that therapy can be incredibly intimidating for people whose family doesn't do it, who aren't used to it, don't talk about things. And that journey can seem like a million miles when you are just starting out. And the idea that there's something this convenient right on your phone to help you start is such a great idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's everything. Talkspace, the lead leading virtual therapy provider, makes getting the help you need easy, accessible and affordable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As a listener of this podcast, you'll get 80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com mfm and enter promo code SPACE80 to match.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With a licensed therapist. Today, go to talkspace.com mFM and enter promo code SPACE80 to get 80 off your first month and show your support for the show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's talkspace.com mfm promo code SPACE80.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Growing up, Melissa had what looked like a perfect life. Loving family, great friends.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Until the day it all came crashing down when she discovered her father's dark secret. He was the notorious Happy face killer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On March 20, Paramount presents the thrilling new original series Happy Face. Inspired by a true life story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

After years without contact, Melissa's father reaches out to confess another murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But there's a twist. Another man is already on death row for the same crime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now Melissa must choose between keeping her secret and protecting her perfect life or unraveling an unsolved mystery to save an innocent man and decide how far she'll go to uncover the truth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Annaleigh Ashford and Dennis Quaid star in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Happy Face new series streaming March 20, exclusively on Paramount, Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Have you ever had one of those nights where you're just staring at the ceiling, willing yourself to sleep?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Actually, yeah. Last night and the night before that and the life before that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's what makes Beam's Dream Powder so exciting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a science backed, healthy nighttime blend packed with ingredients clinically shown to improve sleep so you can wake up refreshed and ready to take on the day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dream is made of a powerful blend of all natural ingredients. Reishi, magnesium, L theanine, apigenin and melatonin. Beam's already improved over 17 and a half million nights of sleep, helping people across the country wake up energized to tackle anything thrown their way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Insomnia. Girlies like me know that magnesium, L theanine and melatonin are the secret to getting a good night's sleep. I have been taking these ingredients on their own for years, so now they're in one delicious packet. Like, that's all I need.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A nice hot drink and you're out. Here's the deal. Beam is giving our listeners their best offer yet. For a limited time, try their best.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Selling Dream Powder and get up to 40% off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For a limited time, go to shopbeam.com murder and use code murder at checkout.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's shop b e a m.com murder and use code murder for up to 40% off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Start getting your best sleep tonight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye. You ready for your murder? It's the same one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Turns out mine is the shit. I can't think of the. What's the Howie Mandel show with all the suitcases?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Suitcase number seven.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that still on?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't think so either.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was gonna try to make a joke about that, but I can't remember what it's called. I can't remember what it's called, and I don't care.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's in the suitcase?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's in the suitcase? You know that show, what's in the Suitcase? All right, so I picked my story this week, actually. My sister suggested this. Our number one fan, our newest and number one est fan. And she suggested it because when I was in high school, when I graduated from high school, she had gone to the JC for two years. So by the time I was ready to go to college, she was too. And so we both went to SAC State, which is Sacramento State University. It was precious. So we both moved to and lived in Sacramento for, like, the same amount of time. And I've, of course, talked massive shit about Sacramento on this podcast. Wonderful things happened there, but not to me. And so near the end of. Right before I moved back home with my parents as an abject failure in my early 20s, I lived in this house on F Street. And it was in this weird. Like, Sacramento is weird because as you go downtown, closer to the Capitol, it's like all the old houses, they're old Victorians and stuff, and some of the streets are really gorgeous, but the neighborhood itself is really bad. And it's a very strange combination because it doesn't look like it should be bad. But then there's, like, one night in this apartment across the street. There was an empty lot that people would just dump garbage in and two homes, homeless people got into a fight, and one of them was beating the other one with a vacuum cleaner that someone had dumped in this empty lot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was like, that kind of area. And it was a horrible time in my life because I had flunked out of college. I think I worked at, like, two different cafes, so I was making, like, $5 an hour.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I remember those days.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you, like, you couldn't get any hours, so you were just, like, always just scraping together money. I remember at one point we. We would rent a VCR from the video store.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We did that when I was a kid, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Because we didn't have one, but we'd be like, I want to watch a movie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. It was, like, just dark.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then it was also summertime in Sacramento, So it's always 110 degrees. So everything's just awful in a special way. Also at the time, the person I was roommates with, she had this friend, I think she was from high school and. And together they were two of the most annoying people. Like, I'm surprised I didn't try to punch one of them because it was like this obnoxious hard girl act. But it was the Sacramento version, so there's a country element to it. And it was really just kind of ignorant and rude.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The kind of girls that are like, I don't get along with other girls.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. Yeah. I only like guys where it's like, well then go fucking hang out with some guys and get away from me. There was, yeah, it was a lot of that kind of stuff. Or like they'd come home at four in the morning from a club and like, knock on the door and be like, let me in. It was just. Everything was. I was livid. I was either livid or scared to death all the time. So it turns out, come to find out, living in this apartment for a little while, that somebody who came over, put it together and goes, don't you realize that that is two doors down is Dorothea Puente's house?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who's Dorothea Puente?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, Dorothea Puente's is the old lady in Sacramento that got caught. She ran a boarding house for old people and like handicapped people. And it turned out that she had been murdering them, taking their Social Security check, taking it across the street to the dive bar. That was so scary, we never even tried to go there. So Dorothea Puente is basically, I'll tell you. So here's her story. Let's hear it. She had a very sad childhood. When she was 8, her father died of tuberculosis. And the next year her mother died in a car crash.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck. Those are like two of the worst ways to die.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she was in an orphanage for a little while and then eventually she had to go live with family members in Fresno.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh no, it just gets sad. That's one of the worst places to live.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, so in 1945, when she was 16, she got married for the first time. So she had. Between 1946 and 1948, she had two daughters. One she went sent to live with relatives in Sacramento, and the other one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She gave up for adoption.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she was not able to deal with any kind of family situation at all. And I think, I think she definitely has some kind of mental disorder, as you'll see. So I'm sure she probably had it then, being a 16 year old newlywed mother.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Who had grown up in an orphanage.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who had two huge traumatic experiences when she was young with her parents dying back to back. Back to back. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fact that husband that married her when she was 16 left her and left her in 1948, like a couple years later. So she started telling people he died of cancer. So. Oh, no, sorry. Died of a heart attack a couple days after they got married. So it was like even more tragic for her. So she's also in throughout this. It's like she's basically a compulsive liar. And she started forging checks, which she ends up doing throughout her life. That's kind of her forte. That's her favorite crime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Such a weird, weird crime.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's super weird. And the funny thing is that you get caught and then you get sentenced for like a couple years and you get out because it's non violent and it's. I don't know, maybe it's kind of arty. So they're like, no, all right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's such a weird thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You paid your dues.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, you hear about so many people who are like, they never had a violent offense. They just forged checks and it's like, well, that's. I would never think to do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's still a crime. I mean, yeah, you might have great penmanship and all, but you're still a criminal. In 1960, she base. And then she remarried a Swede named Axel Johansson, which, fuck, you know, that. That was a party.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Waiting to happen. Of course. A violent alcoholic. They were married for 14 years and then they ended it. And then eight years late or sorry. During that marriage, two years before she got divorced, she was arrested in a brothel. She told the cops that she was there visiting a friend. We don't know what is true about that. One of the articles I read said that she ran the brothel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it seems more likely since she was arrested and served 90 days. I think she was probably just there either visiting her friend or visiting some friends, whatever you might get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Running a brothel ain't an easy task.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a big job. And you don't just. You don't just bail.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At the first arrest. So what she ended up doing is going into. She became a nurse's aide and she started caring for the disabled and the elderly in private life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's how she turned her life around.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you would like to think that way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

End of story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, end of story. So in 1982, she did that for a while. In 1982, her 61 year old friend and business partner, Ruth Monroe, who was living in. So Dorothea had this house on F Street as this big Victorian, two doors.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Down from Karen Kilgariv.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Two doors down from the future miserable home of miserable Karen Kilgariff. So there was an upstairs apartment that she would rent out. So she rented it out to Ruth Monroe and they were business partners, which I guess means that they were working together, taking care of old people and disabled people in private homes. But Ruth died from an overdose of codeine and acetaminophen. And Dorothea told the police that Ruth was very depressed because her husband was terminally ill. So they ruled Ruth's death a suicide. But then a few weeks later the police had to come back because a 74 year old pensioner named Malcolm McKenzie had accused Dorothea of drugging and stealing from him. So he had gone to the police and said that he had met Dorothea at a local bar called the Zebra Club and that they had several drinks together, which I bet means in the 15s. Then he invites her back to his apartment and soon after they arrive he gets dizzy. And even though he's conscious, he can't move. And he has to sit and watch as she. He searches his house for valuables, takes his rare penny collection and forces the diamond ring off his finger.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rare penny. Can we go back to rare penny collection and how fucking cool that is?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you know, it was like in a cardboard book like this with all the years underneath the slots.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That makes me happy. It's sad but.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, so she gets convicted of three charges of theft on August 18th of 1982 and she gets sentenced to five years in jail for that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. What happened to the rare penny collection?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We haven't been able to trace it. So we're starting a foundation called findtherearpennies.gov so she's in jail and she starts being pen pals with a retiree. 77 year old retiree named Everson Gelma. And they become friends through the mail. And when she's released in 1985 after only serving three years, he was there waiting for her to pick her up from jail in his 1980 red Ford pickup. And everything was okay and everything turned great. So soon they were making wedding plans and they opened a joint bank account.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nope.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they were, they were back in her house in Sacramento. Now we're cutting to five years later. Dorothea hires a handyman to come and put in some wood paneling in her apartment. And for that work, plus he paid her an additional $800 she gave him a red 1988, 1980 Ford pickup that was in good condition, almost totally not used. Which she said had belonged to her ex boyfriend who lived in Los Angeles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, where'd she get that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she asks this handyman that she hires to build her a 6 by 3 by 2 foot box for her to store, you know, books and stuff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

As you do in a fucking coffin?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, a box that you want to store stuff in. And then she asks them, once she fills it with her books, I'm doing air quotes you can't see. She says, would you please take this to my storage depot? And he agrees and she goes with him. And then on the way she has him pull over and just has him dump it on a riverbank at a kind of unofficial dump site.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck these books.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It sounds unlikely, but again, we did have an unofficial dump site across from our apartment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, where you put coffin shaped boxes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. You know, or beat another person with a vacuum cleaner. Whatever needs to happen. So a lot of dumping going on up in Sacramento and Sutter counties.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they dumped that and. Oh, she just told him the stuff in the box was junk. Well, on January 1, 1986, a fisherman spots the box and it's sitting three feet from the bank of the river. So he calls the police and they open the box and find a badly decomposed, unidentifiable body of an elderly man inside. Well, it turns out that Dorothea was still collecting Everson Gilmouth's pension. And she would write letters to his family explaining that he hadn't contacted them because he was ill. And so he was basically one of her first victims. Now this was. Now she was renting this apartment all the time. This was her business. And she had 40 new tenants in the house, in the whole house. She was actually approached by a social worker named Peggy Nickerson. She approached the social worker and just explained to her, just so you know, if people on fixed incomes, people on Social Security, elderly people, they can come and stay in my boarding house, everyone's welcome. Yep. Because she had the best system to offer. Her prices were really low. And she took, quote, unquote, took care of the people that worked, that lived.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There because people are nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She made dinner every night. She had everybody come down and sit at dinner together. You know, she like made sure there were people that stayed there that were homeless or like had mental problems. She made sure they showered and, and clip their nails. I wish it was real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If it was real, that'd be so beautiful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean. Yeah, right? That's the whole lure of it is people need that kind of care. And she's saying that she's going to be able to provide that for them. So, sorry, I keep making that mistake. So she. She also. She was known for taking tough cases. Like, all the social workers were like, if it's a person that can't get placed anywhere, you can take them to Dorothea's. She will take them in. And she collected their monthly mail before they saw it. She paid them in stipends, and then she pocketed the rest of their Social Security check or whatever their check was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For expenses, quote, unquote.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You gotta fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So parole agents would go to visit her, and she had been ordered to stay away from the elderly and to refrain from handling government checks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But no violations were ever noted. And they think it's because she was known in, like, social welfare circles as being so good that they would go in and check and be like, you can't be around old people. You can't stay away from Social Security checks. But nothing official would ever go in. Yeah, well, In May of 1988, neighbors started complaining of a sickly sweet smell. So she blamed the aroma on applications of fish emulsion on her perfectly tended lawn. And tended to the point where if people walked on her lawn, she would scream at them and swear like a sailor. So she was very protective of her lawn, and she did a lot of gardening. So there was a man that stayed at the house, and people around the neighborhood knew him as chief. He was schizophrenic and he was an alcoholic, and he was homeless. When he went and stayed with Dorothea, she made him her handyman and she cleaned them all up, made sure that he took a shower all the time, made him presentable, made him come and eat dinner with everybody, made him take his antipsychotic medication or his meds. So she had him digging in the basement and carting soil and rubbish away with a wheelbarrow. And he basically. There was a concrete slab on her basement floor. He was basically digging up the basement floor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What do you need it for?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He soon afterwards disappeared. And so when there was a second tenant, disappeared, a developmentally disabled man who had schizophrenia. When his social worker reported him missing, his name was Alberto Montoya. The police came and realized this keeps happening here. So they were looking around and they noticed in the backyard there was some ground that had been recently disturbed. So these investigators went to the car, got the shovels that were in their car, and they started digging and quickly turned up what Looked like shreds of cloth and beef jerky is the report.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ew.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so, as they're trying to find out what's under there, one of the investigators said that he thought that he hit a tree root. And so he was whacking at it and jabbing at it with his shovel, and it wouldn't move. So he decides to climb down into the hole that they had dug up to get. To pull it out. And he wrapped his hands around it, braced himself, started pulling, and it broke loose, and it was a leg bone out of the socket.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They had to suspect that at that point or they wouldn't have been digging, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So why are you fucking yanking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She thought it was a tree root.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Come on, though. Like, you're looking for bodies, but if it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, but, I mean, they're looking, but a tree root is the most likely thing that's gonna be there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So if they. I'm sure that they'd done stuff like that before. And it's like. Yeah, I mean, that would be 20% of the time, but most of the time it's that. And also, I think when bodies that are buried just straight into the ground, they turn black and brown. So it would have probably looked like a tree root, too. So then they start digging up her whole backyard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And, oh, she came out when he was down in the hole and he had this bone. She came out, and when they turned around, they were like, we just found a human bone. She did. They said she did this thing where she slapped her hands on her face, like, really over the top and in, like, trying to act like she was surprised. And they immediately were like, there's something going on. That's the weirdest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, straight up Home Alone style.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Home Alone style, exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's where they got that from.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And apparently, neighbors said that she always talked about wanting to be an actress and planning on moving to Los Angeles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's a bad actress, I guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Yeah. She needed to take some classes. So this body that they eventually dug up was a woman named Leona carpenter, who was 78 years old. And one of her very. Dorothea's very first victims that stayed in that house. They basically had the coroner's office came in with heavy machinery and a whole work crew and just started. And forensic anthropologists and started digging up this entire backyard. And that. I've seen the news footage that's basically taken from the angle of. Because they couldn't get in. So it's basically taken from our back porch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, not literally. I don't know. Cause it was 1988. But they shot it over the fence.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wanna see.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And you see these cops walking around and it's just like. Like the. You see a lot of sheets and like the. When they put out the string and the stakes. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, this will be the next area.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to see it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So since Dorothea Puentes wasn't immediately. Puente, singular. Wasn't immediately a suspect. What she. I mean, like, they didn't. When they were doing that first digging, it wasn't like. Keep her right there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she said she was gonna go get a cup of coffee at the hotel up the street while they were doing that. And then she fucking hightails it to Los Angeles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, now they know it's you, dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but she. I mean, she left, so she thought she was out of there and she didn't think they were onto her the way that they were. So when she gets to Los Angeles, she goes to a bar and she starts making friends with an old pensioner who's sitting at the bar she introduced herself as. I think it was Donna Johansen. What bar do we know it didn't. Oh, God, I wish the articles I read didn't say.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's gotta be something that we know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Something divey. Maybe the Frolic Room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Frolic Room for. That's exactly what I was thinking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. But luckily this old pensioner probably been sitting at that bar watching the news a bunch for 15 years from the news and called the cops. So they got her down in LA and brought her back up. Up. Eventually, seven bodies were found buried in her backyard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She was charged with a total of nine murders because they. They traced back the apparent. The apparent suicide of her old. Of Ruth Monroe. And then the other guy, the other. The missing guy, Chief.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, man. Do you think that grand. The grandpa at the Frolic Room got a reward?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. Here's what's interesting. When detectives were in that backyard, they realized that they were only blocks away from the home of serial killer Morris Solomon, where they had dug up from that house a bunch of dead bodies in 1987. Who's he?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have never heard of him either.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And Sacramento, I just gotta say, I mean, like, Chuck talked about it. I've complained about it, but like, I must be a little bit right, because we've already had, I think, four serial killers from Sacramento on this show alone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's chock full of murders.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's nutso. So basically, at the end of the day, she went to trial. In February 1993, she was convicted of three murders, sentenced to two life sentences, received life without the possibility of parole. She went to Chowchilla, the ladies facility. She always said that all those people died of natural causes and she just buried them there. And that she herself, at age 82, March 27, 2011, died of natural causes. Houses in prison.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's our girl. Girl, Dorothea, that's our hometown girl. She would take their checks, walk across the street to that dive bar and get her money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They cash checks at dive bars.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They cash checks at. There's certain bars that are so divey they will cash your Social Security check for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So like they're like second Friday of every month is like you got to get a couple bartenders on staff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Because, well. And also it's Sacramento. Like literally the state capitol was blocks away. So they know they're getting their money if it's a government check. Yeah, they know that thing is good. So they don't. If it's that little old lady that runs the boarding house, of course they're going to do her a favor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She brings everyone over and she takes her portion and that's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's so nice. She's taking care of all those people inside that building.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What did it smell like in that fucking building? Oh, in that dive bar too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, the whole block. I bet it was carpeted, that house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, the dive bar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh yes, for sure. Like dark maroon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, like thin dark maroon. Like bowling alley carpet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet they had like a. It was a pretty small. And they had a pool table that was too close to one wall. So then they had to cut a pool cue in half so that you could shoot from that side of the table.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that what they do? I've never seen that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've seen it in dive bars, I guess.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have not been in like real dive bars.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then you gotta become a full blown alcoholic. It is so fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I went to one full blown, like real, real dive bar in Savannah, Georgia, but like on the outskirts of it. And I was like, oh, this isn't a charming LA dive bar. There's a Confederate flag on the wall and I'm the only Jew who's ever been in here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They should have taken your picture and put it up behind the bar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was terrifying. Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so sad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, and it's crazy. And when you sit, when you saw her on the news. Like she was on the news all the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to see her picture.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I totally remember it. She looks like a cartoon of a little old lady.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, like, not even big glasses.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's really short, gray hair. The whole thing. You would never think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How did she kill everyone? She just poisoned them or drug them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Poison, I mean. I think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, man. Well, that's fucked up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pretty fucked up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so now we're ending the show on. We're ending on a positive now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

One really great thing that happened to us this past week.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. So do you have yours?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you have yours?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure. A really great thing is that I hung out Sunday evening with a girlfriend that I like a lot. And we've gotten to know each other a lot, but we like having this great, deep conversation. Like we hang out with a lot of people together. Her name's Crystal, but she and I sat at a bar and just fucking talked. And we're like, I'm not very happy. And just like, we're very open with each other in a way that's like, hard to find when you're an adult. Is someone to like, be really open with and just, you know, who understands you and you guys can get each other and that's hard to do. And we just had this really great conversation and I felt a lot better after it and kind of feel like I've made a friend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For a long time. It's a kind of a deeper connection and it was nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's great. Yeah, that's very good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's yours.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's all that matters.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They say human connection is really. It's nothing else makes people actually happy except for connecting with other human beings.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Well, shit, I guess mine is that I don't. Well, I don't know if I'm allowed to talk about that because it's. It sucks because all I've been doing is working, so most of mine are work based, which is a little bit lame, but. Well, you know what? I'll. I can.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. You're proud of yourself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah. No, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You just can't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I mean, it's like when you have one thing to talk about, whereas people are like, hey, what's up with you? It's like, just don't bother asking. It doesn't matter. But there's a guy that's a guest star. I guess I just won't say his name. And then when the show's actually on, I can say it. But yeah, he's on my episode. And he's so funny. It's like the most delightful thing in the world. I mean, everybody on this show is really good. And I'm very excited for this show to come out. Cause I think people are really gonna like it. But this one guy is hilarious and he looks like the guy that I adored in high school. So it makes it even more fun to watch him because it's like, it almost looks like a weird mix. Like a mashup.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like you're rooting for him already because you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But then on top of that, it's the kind of thing where you can't. It's like single camera. Like you can't laugh out loud when things are happening. Cause they need like perfect quiet. And I have to keep my hand over my mouth. He's so funny. Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's the shit you've written too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, some of it. I mean, some of it. But at one point I went up. I had to finally introduce myself. Cause I was actually. He was so funny that I was nervous to. I didn't want to be like, hey, what's up on the right? Or whatever. I was just kind of of like trying to stay away. And when I finally did go up to introduce myself, I said in my head, I thought I was gonna say, you know, like, you're great or today's been so great or something like that. But what came out was, you're being so funny. And the second the last word of that sentence came out of my mouth, I just turned and walked away. So I was just like, hopefully I just won't have to talk to anyone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't wait till this cuts and I get to find out who it is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, it's. I mean, it's. Some people may have seen him before, but it's not. He's not well known.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. I feel like I'm not telling you until it airs either. You won't tell me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we'll keep it a huge secret until next spring because it's a mid season replacement.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, thanks for listening, you guys. This is. Oh, we never introduced what the show was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no one knows. That's too bad. This is my favorite is what the fuck with Mark Marin. Thanks for listening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm Maren. Go to Twitter, my favemurder, Instagram, my favorite murderer. We're on Facebook@mfmpodcast, our shirts, my favorite murdershirts.com, everything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you so much for listening and supporting and being active, involved people. We love it. It's very fun, you guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are the best. And this is so great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stay sexy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't get murdered. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Want a cookie? Awesome. The answer's yes. Okay, we are back from your story. Karen, any updates on Dorothea Puente?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I do have an update, which is that I'm blown away that I started this by saying that my sister is the show's newest listener and number one fan, and she's the one that suggested this story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My sister has never listened to this podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really? No, not once.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think she used to listen the beginning when we were just chatting, but she has so much anxiety, she cannot listen to True Crime. Like, she can't do it. And so that's just really funny because there's like, I will have full conversations with multiple people, and she'll just be sitting there, like, smiling, where I'm like, you could get in here. You could support me at any time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, thank you. She's like, I know you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I'll never give you that satisfaction. Ultimately, the other one is that I just wanna update this for my own credit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When I was talking about the person that I was working with on the show that I was working with, and I had to keep my mouth covered because he was so funny that I didn't want. You can't laugh out loud on set, Obviously. That whole story was about Tim Robinson from I Think youk Should Leave.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. And what show was it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was the show called Making History. I think there was only five episodes on. It was very, very short run. I was lucky enough to be the writer on the episode where he showed up as Al Capone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, wow. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was a true hang with Tim Robinson before I Think youk Should Leave came out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So you were probably also covering your mouth because you hadn't had your teeth fixed yet. Remember that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was very, like, demure. A demure giggler. Cause my teeth were insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Irish teeth. How crazy is that, that your life is so different now because you have these beautiful pearly whites.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can't wait to see Tim Robinson.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Again and show him to be like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look at these motherfuckers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look at my guffaw. Now look at that. Big fan. Big fan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so. But then there are also case updates.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So for the Dorothea Puente case, which, well, is kind of my college hometown, it was a real joy. And that conversation went on forever on Twitter, like people from Sacramento being like, why do you have to be like this to us? And, you know, there was a lot of emotion.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was where the Beef from Sacramento started.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think I started and ended that beef all by myself. And people in Sacramento are like, we don't care about you. Shut up. So in 2010, Dorothea Puente's house was sold at an auction. So this was the house, a boarding house where she was killing the boarders and taking their Social Security checks and cashing them across the street at the diviest bar my eyes have ever set their eyes upon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The house was sold at auction for $226,000.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

2010, still, that's a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That still sounds cheap.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a bargain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

According to the Sacramento Bee, the couple who purchased it outbid one other contestant in a packed room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh. And everyone was like, stay away from them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. They're like, so you do want the house where the bodies were buried in the backyard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're gonna fight someone over winning it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Over living in a haunted house? So today, the homeowners lean into the house's macabre history, and there's, you know, they basically have made it a little bit of a museum. There's framed photographs on the wall documenting Puente's history there. There's like, a mannequin that looks like her on the front porch. Yeah. But the owners are very clear. They think she obviously was an awful, horrible person. But it's like, people are gonna.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're gonna come by.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're gonna come by.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I like that. They're like, look, we know this is weird, and we're gonna go with it instead of, like, just pretending everything is fine. Lalala.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. You know, because you can't have a story like that. And I think that was, you know, obviously what I was talking about when I told it, where it's just like, we always hear those kinds of horror stories, but when it's two doors down, like, when these things happen, the block is affected, the neighbors are affected, the price of their homes are affected.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. That's like. I saw recently, like, a whole slideshow on Instagram of this person going, like, house to house in la of, like, the Brady Bunch house, the ET House, the Wonder Years house. And, you know, people in that neighborhood have to get so sick of that, probably. And I wonder if I don't think I'd move into a house that people would be taking photos in front of all the time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wouldn't want to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Unless the windows were all in the back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And it was really cheap, in which case this was so good for. Good for them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, and I think it's a great area. I think now it's an even better area.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Good for them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, let's stop talking about ourselves.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's stop talking about ourselves through Dorothea Puente.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And instead rename this episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love Liminal Space, though. The idea of it is fun. But if we were naming it today, perhaps we would call this episode Back From Camp, because that's what we had joked about in the beginning.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Back From Camp. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're going to the normal format that bought me these teeth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or we could rename it Daddy Wants to Come Home, which is what I said to you when I was complaining about having two jobs and wishing I had more time for this podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're gonna have more time for this job, and it's going to be the most time consuming job you've, like. More than having three jobs at once, it turns out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So true. I had to hire people to help me live the rest of my life so I could get this stuff done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. It's not. I wanna warn her it's not gonna get better.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, she knows. She can feel it in her bones.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She'll have the money for new teeth. So that's really the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's the. Yeah. The teeth have always been the goal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Huge piece of Dorito in the corner of my mouth. But I had to say this, and I hope, and I'm pretty sure you feel the same exact way. What an insanely rewarding experience, like, all of it has been. But to now have a job on par with the job I used to have for a different person, all of the energy, all of the creative ideas, all of the everything getting poured into somebody else that just walks away, like, here's my thing, which is what a writer does for Lou. It is what you agree to, but to sit there kind of brokenhearted, like, I wish it could have been me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then now to be here, you're hustling for yourself. It makes it, like, truly a lovely, joyous thing. And then to be able to hire people that it's like, yeah, let's not hire the people we've worked with in the past that have permanently traumatized us. Let's give the jobs to the people who are like, other versions of ourselves, people that, you know, like Danielle Kramer, who is Georgia's recommendation, knowing her from, like, Meltdown, is our COO and, like, couldn't have been a better match. It's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we want her to not feel like she's hustling for someone else. And it's like fucking. She hates it. We want it to be like fun for her and to feel like she's getting something out of it that's bigger than just like this fucking guy who's walking away.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We want to control her and everyone else around us feelings. And we're going to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we will.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And thank you for listening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And yours too. And stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie? Hey, Janiece Torres here and I'm Austin Hankwitz. We're the hosts of Mind the Business Small Business Success Stories produced by Ruby Studio and Intuit QuickBooks. Catch up on seasons one and two and join us for a brand new season of the podcast as we talk to small business owners about how they manage and grow their businesses with the help of platforms like Intuit Quick Books.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen to Mind the Business Small business success Stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn [e-mail] credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report with the best.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All Inclusive Vacation Deals to Mexico and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Caribbean Booking your getaway with Cheap Caribbean Vacations means you have more freedom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To do your deal. Whether you want to enjoy snorkeling, endless margaritas and more, or simply soak up the sun and sand in a tropical paradise, Cheap Caribbean Vacations has your deal for that. Plan and book exact way you want.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At exactly the right price for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

By using our exclusive Budget Beach Finder. Or find a featured all inclusive package to Iberostar Hotel & Resorts in Jamaica and do your deal at cheapcaribbean. Com.