Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 57: Live At The Fox Theater

Summary

Podcast Summary: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Episode Title: Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 57: Live At The Fox Theater
Release Date: August 13, 2025
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Network: Exactly Right and iHeartPodcasts

---

Introduction: Recapping a Decade of True Crime

In this special "Rewind" episode, Karen and Georgia take listeners back to Episode 57, a live recording from the Fox Theater in Oakland, California, nearly a decade ago. They reminisce about their early days of touring, sharing behind-the-scenes anecdotes and reflecting on the evolution of their podcast.

Karen Kilgariff [02:24]: "These live show titles are brilliant. I'll say so myself."

Live Show Highlights: First Tour Memories

The hosts recount their first live show experience, emphasizing the overwhelming support from their families and the enthusiastic Oakland audience.

Georgia Hardstark [05:31]: "I love it. I know. I looked on our guest list and I was like, kill, Gareth. Kill, Gareth. Kill Gareth. Yay."

They share humorous moments, such as their obsession with pockets on dresses and the exclusive merchandise available only at the live event.

Karen Kilgariff [07:03]: "I walked in, I saw a dress. It fits me. It has pockets. I'm like, what the fuck? God is with me."

Feature Story 1: The Speed Freak Killers

Karen and Georgia delve into the harrowing tale of the Speed Freak Killers, Herbert Mullin and Wesley Shermantine Jr., highlighting their brutal crimes in Northern California during the late 20th century.

Background and Crimes

• Early Life: Mullin and Shermantine were childhood friends from Linden, California, who began their murderous spree in their late teens.

  Georgia Hardstark [27:07]: "They grew up together. It's 95 miles east of California. They were hunters. They graduated high school in '84."

• First Known Victims: In 1985, they murdered 16-year-old Chevy Wheeler and later Cindy Van Der Heyden, among others, tying their killings to Mullin's delusional belief in preventing earthquakes through human sacrifices.

  Karen Kilgariff [28:20]: "He believed that his friend’s death was part of a cosmic plan and changed his major from engineering to philosophy."

Investigation and Arrest

Shermantine's confession, obtained after a lengthy interrogation, implicated him in 24 murders. The discovery of victim remains in a well eventually linked them to numerous unsolved cases.

Georgia Hardstark [34:24]: "Items recovered in 2012, like a ring, sandals, and a locket, are now being publicly released."

Trial and Sentencing

Mullin was convicted of multiple counts of first-degree murder but later received a plea deal, resulting in a 14-year sentence. Shermantine remained on death row until California's stance on the death penalty changed, leading to his continued incarceration.

Karen Kilgariff [33:32]: "He remains in prison and hopefully always will."

Recent Updates (May 2023)

San Joaquin County detectives have been re-examining unsolved cases, linking recent findings to the Speed Freak Killers. Items like a ring and sandals are being released to the public to aid in identifying victims.

Georgia Hardstark [40:50]: "San Joaquin county detectives are methodically reviewing decades of unsolved cases."

Feature Story 2: The Barbecue Murders in Tara Linda

In a chilling second narrative, Karen and Georgia explore the double murder case of Marlene Olive and her boyfriend Chuck in Tara Linda, a suburban area in San Rafael.

The Crime

• Victims: Marlene Olive, a 16-year-old girl with a troubled past, and Chuck, her 20-year-old boyfriend, brutally murdered their adoptive parents in 1975.

  Karen Kilgariff [75:35]: "Marlene got super into the occult and decided her parents had to die."

• Aftermath: The duo attempted to collect life insurance and flee to Ecuador but were ultimately apprehended due to their flawed plans and Chuck's inept actions.

  Georgia Hardstark [80:08]: "They were caught, of course, because they're idiots."

Long-Term Impact

Chuck received a life sentence, while Marlene, after serving a brief juvenile term, moved to Los Angeles and engaged in criminal activities like forgery.

Karen Kilgariff [80:56]: "She went to some juvenile thing and was released after two years."

Personal Connection

Karen shares a personal anecdote, revealing her childhood proximity to the murder site, which adds a poignant layer to the story.

Karen Kilgariff [82:08]: "I was 13 and putting these kids down and walking around."

Mental Health and Criminal Justice Insights

Both stories underscore the dire consequences of untreated mental health issues and the complexities of the criminal justice system in handling such cases. Karen emphasizes the need for better regulation and oversight in mental health facilities.

Karen Kilgariff [68:32]: "If we don't have stricter regulation, then those problems are just going to keep making things unsafe."

Audience Interaction and Live Show Dynamics

Throughout the episode, Karen and Georgia engage with their live audience, incorporating planned interactions and spontaneous moments that highlight their chemistry and comedic rapport.

Georgia Hardstark [73:08]: "Yay. Yeah."

They humorously navigate attempts to involve an audience member, Chloe, in the show, showcasing their ability to blend humor with serious content seamlessly.

Karen Kilgariff [83:06]: "Chloe, everybody. Nice. Beautifully done. Beautifully done."

Conclusion: Reflecting on the Journey

As the episode wraps up, Karen and Georgia reflect on their memorable moments from the live show, the importance of community support, and the ongoing mission to shed light on lesser-known true crime cases.

Georgia Hardstark [86:43]: "Sounds like our government. And of course, Chloe's classic."

They also discuss potential titles for their live shows, emphasizing their playful approach to storytelling.

Karen Kilgariff [85:31]: "The title could be Sounds like Our Government."

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Karen Kilgariff [07:03]: "I walked in, I saw a dress. It fits me. It has pockets. I'm like, what the fuck? God is with me."

• Georgia Hardstark [27:07]: "They grew up together. It's 95 miles east of California. They were hunters. They graduated high school in '84."

• Karen Kilgariff [28:20]: "He believed that his friend’s death was part of a cosmic plan and changed his major from engineering to philosophy."

• Georgia Hardstark [34:24]: "Items recovered in 2012, like a ring, sandals, and a locket, are now being publicly released."

• Georgia Hardstark [40:50]: "San Joaquin county detectives are methodically reviewing decades of unsolved cases."

• Karen Kilgariff [68:32]: "If we don't have stricter regulation, then those problems are just going to keep making things unsafe."

---

Final Thoughts

This "Rewind" episode serves as both a nostalgic trip down memory lane and an insightful exploration of complex true crime cases. Karen and Georgia expertly balance humor with the gravity of their stories, maintaining their signature style that has captivated millions of listeners over the years.

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For those who haven't listened to this episode, "Rewind with Karen & Georgia" offers a unique blend of personal anecdotes, detailed crime narratives, and engaging live show experiences that exemplify what makes "My Favorite Murder" a standout in the true crime podcasting landscape.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right. If you've been waiting for a sign to finally get the car you've been dreaming about, this is it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Hyundai getaway sales event is going on now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can score a great deal on Hyundai's award winning lineup of SUVs, including the Kona, Tucson, Santa Fe and Palisade.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or check out their sedans like the technology packed Elantra and their most advanced Sonata yet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the all electric Ioniq 5 and Ioniq 6 are part of the event too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Every new Hyundai is backed by America's best Warranty. That's a 10 year, 100,000 mile powertrain limited warranty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You also get three years or 36, 000 miles of complimentary maintenance on all 2025 models. Visit Hyundai USA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Offers end September 2, 2025.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye. We're siblings like you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fight. You disagree. It's really hard to be in a judge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You judge each other.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You. You lead differently and we've gotten to that edge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, I'm Simone Boyce, host of the Bright side. And this week I Hollywood power sisters Aaron and Sarah Foster. They're getting real about boundaries, rejection. Plus, what's next for their hit Netflix series. Nobody wants this. Listen to the Bright side on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone thinks they'd never join a cult, but it happens all the time to people just like you and people just like us. I'm Lola Blanc. And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're the hosts of Trust Me, a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Podcast about cults, manipulation and the psychology of belief. Each week we talk to fellow survivors, former believers and experts to understand why people get pulled in and how they get out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Trust me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

New episodes every Wednesday on exactly right. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. My savior.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so see. Every Wednesday, we recap our old shows with all new commentary and updates and insights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. And today we're recapping episode 57, which we've named. You're not gonna believe this. We've named live at the Fox Theater.

[Karen Kilgariff]

These live show titles are brilliant. I'll say so myself. I will say so myself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode came out February 23, 2017. Almost 10 years ago.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, in two years. Okay, thank you. All right, let's get into the intro of episode that was only eight years ago. Number 50. Wow, you came. Hi, Oakland.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's up?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow, this Is so excellent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Should we. Should we scream really quick?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ready? That does feel good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Our friend. That's good. Our friend Lizzie Cooperman told us that her secret before going on stage and not being nervous is to scream into her hands.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's really.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That felt good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Therapeutic. I may have damaged my instrument a little bit, though. This is fucking crazy, isn't it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Somebody tweeted a picture from the audience of the stage and the frontisk piece looks like Beyonce from the Grammys, doesn't it? Do you think she dressed up like the interior of the Fox Theater on purpose?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Make me look.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Give me that Fox look.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She said, who's here? Who's from Oakland and who's from Not Oakland. Cheer either way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There you go. Ask a seven part question to kick it off. We definitely want you to be yelling the whole time. So let's see, basically, who's from San Leandro, who's from Dublin?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is Karen's city. Can you tell?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Top of the hill, Daily City. Anybody?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not me. I mean, they're from places. Anyway, let's go. We.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We don't. Oh, that was my cousin Stev. Oh, by the way, 110 of my family members are here tonight, so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it. I know. I looked on our guest list and I was like, kill, Gareth. Kill, Gareth. Kill Gareth. Yay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Represent. We represent in the bay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lots of people do. Should we do a quick outfit?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, walk it across.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look at my watch, my tights.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There you go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those are cat tights. If you can't see from the balcony.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tail in the back. They're little cats. No, no, thank you. No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I got a Yuca dress.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pockets, pockets, pockets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll never stop yelling pockets at the top of my lungs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We were having, like a conversation backstage of like, what? You know, a serious one. And then she goes like this. And I went, oh, pockets. Right in the. Should we sit?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you want me to tell you a quick story about this dress?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's going to be fast. It's going to be fast always. I'm not asking you, I'm asking her. We went to the outlet malls in Los Angeles. We went to the Kate Spade store. I walked in, I was like, I have to get. Oh, really quick sidebar in the middle of the dress story. Oakland. We just want you to know this is the first night of our tour. We're starting it with you guys right here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing, amazing, crazy, crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyway, I'm at the outlet malls, Kate Spade store. Had to get my tour. Long dress has to be black. That's the rule we made up that we're now stuck in permanently.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It sucks there's no black dresses.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It turns out a big, obsessively buying black dresses. I go in, I see a dress. It's this one on the rack. It fits me. It's my size. It has pockets. I'm like, what the fuck? God is with me? I look at the price tag. It says $219. I was like, hey, listen, I'm gonna wear it for, what, 50 shows or something like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So are we doing one dress for all the shows?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, the entire run.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really?

[Karen Kilgariff]

These dresses are gonna smell so bad when we're done. It' imagine so. I'm like, hear my mother's voice in my head. It's a key piece. You're gonna be able to wear it over and over again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's worth the money. When you spend more, you get more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I'm like, all right, Pat. So I take the dress up to the counter, put it on the counter. This is the classic outlet sale. Outlet store tail, $79. Motherfuckers. Pockets, pockets, pockets. Po crickets. I'll never send my dress.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She wonder if she just laughed she just kept walking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Walking down Telegraph.

[Georgia Hardstark]

$79. Okay, let's see.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What else?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are we really wearing? These? The whole thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no, we can't. That's crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're actually gonna wear them all weekend, though. So if you see photos that look like it's here and you're like, I don't remember them doing that. It's because we're not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I'm just gonna keep wearing them up and down the coast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but they're still gonna smell really bad by Monday, for sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, well, and then we can burn them in a pile like witches. Oh, we have an exclusive merch announcement.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here's why. Merch corner. Oops. The shirt's got corner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Corner, corner. Everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oops.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, the shirts that are available tonight here at the Fox Theater in Oakland.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We'Re gonna call them exclusive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're not calling them mistake shirts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, they're exclusive. They're exclusive to this weekend. So if you were on the fence, I don't know. Are people then? I mean, it's weird. Get one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What? Look, it doesn't need to have our name on it to make it our shirt. That's the thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And listen, it doesn't mean the name of the podcast on the front or anywhere, even on the shirt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why reference the name of the show that the shirt belongs to, but, you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Know, and then, like, someone will see you in that and, like, you'll know they're in the know when they're like, I know what that's from. Even though it doesn't say the name of what it is or the name of the hosts on it or anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Any name at all, really. It's just some words.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's because we knew you guys were like, you know, everyone else needs our name on it because we're gonna forget.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So exclusive merch. Tonight only. And.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tomorrow night and tomorrow also tomorrow. Sorry, Weekend. It's a week. Exclusive merch.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a weekend. Shit. Merch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Merch.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Merch. Super special merch. Should we sit down? Let's sit down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are we gonna.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is this correct? Not all forward. Like, why have a table and then just sit out there? That's weird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We've never sat on these sides before.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, should we switch it around?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. Yeah, it's just, you know, this is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's just make it right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, There we go. What's it called when you are so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, we can't hear you and we don't want to know what you're saying, so. That's Karen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Karen. I'm George.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, hi. Welcome to my favorite burner. I shouldn't have done that. Don't know why I did that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, welcome to my allergies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Before we start, I do have one piece of news that might be exciting for everybody that I saw. Somebody tweeted it to us secondhand from another murderino. You can now on Ways get Dateline's Keith Morrison's voice for your gps. Did you hear about that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Aw, that. Did you listen?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. Did you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, but I want it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Could you imagine that creep telling you how to get around town? Hilarious. I love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's such a great idea.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like I would prefer Lieutenant Joe Kenda, though. That would be mine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, man. Really? Yeah, he's just snow snarky the whole time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everything would be like a thing where one time I turned down this street, just be like, okay, Jo. Just trying to get to target.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I bet he says flip a U E. You know, instead of make a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

U turn, you can never go back, but turn left and keep going. A lot of that kind of hardcore stuff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At least it's not Nancy Grace.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She went there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One more thing. Just really quick. So I went home really quick to Petaluma, California, for to see the. Ooh, my God. What if my whole hometown came to see. I thought you hated me. So I was eating breakfast with my dad, and I said to my dad, hey, do you want me to get you a murderino baseball hat? And he goes, huh? How about you? Yeah, he goes, how about you get me a shirt? But instead of a monogram, it's just got a little dead body on it. And I texted her, and I was like, guess what we're making next.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I'm like, he just wants you to go get him a shirt somewhere else. Yeah, he doesn't want one of your.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He might just need shirts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Weirdly, my dad, he. I saw him last weekend, and he pointed to his hat, and it was a New York City hat. And he's like, I'm ready for my trip to New York when you go there. And I'm like, cause you want to go see my show? He's just like, no, I want to go to New York. So I'm taking my dad to New York. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Marty's coming.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice. All right. That's a good way to find out your dad's coming to your show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, they have a. This is. Okay, they have a whole vintage Ouija board, like, display at the SFO airport. Do I have to say SFO airport or just say sfo?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can say whatever you want. It doesn't really matter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like a huge. Like, a bunch of cabinets of, like, really fucking old Ouija boards and, like, the. Like. It's awesome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can't touch them, can you? No, don't. Don't touch those.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I love them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's bad luck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Luck doesn't exist.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I keep forgetting what else.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That kind of sounds rad, actually.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. That's gorgeous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's it. You want to kick it off? Let's get into this thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it murder time? All right, we're back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're back, and we're planning our latest tour.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just the moment of me telling everybody the price I thought I was gonna pay on that dress, and then the actual price and the absolute ovation that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We received from a bargain, that's one thing about us is that how could.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We not love a bargain?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like we were in a commercial for, like, you know, Kohl's or something. And when they say what the bargain is, cheer for it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cheer. Everybody cheers. Maybe we'll get an integration going where it's like, TJ Maxx and my fav. Favorite murder. And then somebody comes up and scans you Scan a tag and then it's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then the audience pops up and cheers for you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So stoked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, it's really funny that we're recording this one today, because this morning I literally started my tour dress shopping.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, where'd you start it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're gonna love it. Play clothes in Burbank.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you gonna have them make you something?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, but you know what I'm talking about, right? It's like one of the greatest vintage shops in town. Burbank has, like, this secret little area of vintage clothing stores that just have treasures. And so I tried on a bunch of dresses today.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mostly leopard print.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would do it. A 60s leopard print. That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that would be incredible. Yeah, this is a consideration. Now we're gonna go back on the road. Are we gonna do what we did before? I think I'm gonna bust out entirely from my clogs rebellion against my sister and do something new with the shoe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you? I think. I don't think I'm gonna do black. Any black. That's my shoe. I just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think that's exciting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like, I just don't. I want to wear something a little more whimsical. So that's what I'm looking for is something that makes me laugh a little bit, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Sure. That's fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like something a woman going to a key party who's a little drunk on martinis and Capri cigarettes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Would wear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Awesome. Okay. That's your mood board.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. What's yours?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Um, I think I should go. God. So you're sorry, are you. Do you have a little bit of a 70s direction?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's gonna be between, like, 50s and like late 70s. Yeah. If there's something 80. That's hilarious. With shoulder pads, I'm not ashamed. I'll do it, I think.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What are you doing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if I do turn of the century and it's more like a. It's like a. A field marm. So I have one of those. Like, I have the dress that's like the shirt that gets cinched at the top and then gets like. You get like a corset on the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bottom and you have like tie on pockets. Yes, those tie on pockets that they had back then that they put under their dress.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. It's almost like there's skirts. There's several layers of skirts and aprons.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like several that go on separately that someone has to help you fucking tie on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. And then a shawl that. Then a shawl that ties around the waist and in the back. And then you put the final apron over the toe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I suggest an accessory?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A goat. Just a live baby. Walk on goat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it's. I'm wearing a gorgeous $10,000 bracelet that. The chain. The goat's chain is attached to my bracelet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or you can go turn of the last century and just go straight up 90s, 1990s. Oh, what a few. I'm going turn of the century, but it's a turn of the 21st, so it's just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What a choker. Some speed, A loud voice. Goldschlager. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, we'll make a fine pair.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Camel wives. Let's do this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stumbling on camel wides. Just stumbling on stage, the two of us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I think the way we stumbled on stage, and I definitely remember this was the place where the backstage was so fancy. Like, we were kind of blown away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. In Oakland.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? Remember that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And your whole family was there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. And my cousin Stevie afterwards told me that he did not know what he was going to and didn't understand. And then when he got there and when we walked out and the ovation we got made him cry. But then, like, they listened to the podcast since they were sought live.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's. That's a. That's like a, you know, testament, I think it is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, we sold. We sold him on it. Yeah, but he is. But he's actually Kate Winkler, Dawson's number one fan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know if I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He loves her and loved tenfold more. Wicked and all of it. So they really became a podcast family after the fact. But I had to sell out the Fox Theater in Oakland before they had to leave.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's all it takes, folks, to get your family to be proud of you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, that's right. Just a little bit of showbiz. Wait, and this. Was this a show where. Not this one, but the second night, Nora came out and did a cartwheel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. That's what I was thinking of. She definitely did a cartwheel on stage. Cause we were like, you're never gonna get a chance like this again. Come out on stage.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come and do it. She did it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was eight years ago. She was like, 12 or something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. No, she was. She was like, nine. And now she's going to college.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. She's basically prepping right now to go move into the dorms.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'm prepping to move into a retirement home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I'm not prepping for anything. I'm just letting life take me where it's gonna take me here in the 90s, baby. I actually am going to try to put an outfit idea together that would be. Well, here's what it would be. Why am I pretending that I have to think about. Would be way too short for my butt. Plaid miniskirt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. With that giant safety pin. Like, giant ridiculous safety pin. Remember those?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like a mini kilt for a girl.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And a babydoll T shirt that says, like the one I loved so much, which was fuck the environment or no, sorry, I hate the environment. You know, you get one of those boots, black tights that have runs in them. Doc boots and a little cardigan sweater.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lunchbox as your purse.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lunchbox is a purse filled with drugs. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah, we had that. Barrettes. Ironic bobby pants. Hell, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Barrettes that just sit on your hair because they're not really working.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Choker. Tongue ring, maybe?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not for me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Belly button ring.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, my dumb salmon tattoo. I got a massage the other day, and it was just like, the first 10 minutes, and it was such a great massage. And then I remembered I have a salmon tattoo. And I was like. I wanted to say something. I'm like, don't say anything. Just. It's just too bad for you. I always forget it's there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I forget my hearts are on my butt, too. It's just not my problem, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right. It's everybody else's problem.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I guarantee you she's seen way worse tattoos than that. I guarantee you, like, way like that. She should have been apologized to for. And that's your salmon's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not that my salmon is field and stream approved. Anyway, we should be talking about this show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, let's get on to the show. Should we get started?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. We're about to get into Georgia's story. This one is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I forgot that I've covered this. That's how, like, bad this one is. Then I was like, I'll never do this one. And then I was looking at this and I'm like, oh, I've done this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One at a live show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What was I thinking?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, but also, you know what you're thinking. We're a true crime podcast and we're gonna tell these people true crime stories. We didn't really understand that we could control the reception and the vibe. But also, it's a very relevant and very compelling local story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. It's. Yeah, it's a very. Like, every local knows it. They wanna hear it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so I did it, and so she did it. So now let's get into Georgia's story about the speed freak killers. Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robaix and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from hello Sunshine and I Heart Podcasts, where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off. Each week I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club. Visit Apple co reesapplebooks to find out more. Betrayal Weekly is back for season two.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With brand new stories. The detective comes driving up fast and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like screeches right in the parking lot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I swear I'm not crazy, but I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Think he poisoned me. I feel trapped. My breathing changes. More money, more money, more money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I went white. I realized, wow, like, he is not a mentor. He's pretty much a monster. New stories, new voices, and shocking manipulations.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This didn't just happen to me. It happened to hundreds of other people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But these aren't just stories of destruction. They're stories of survival, of people picking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Up the pieces and daring to tell the truth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm gonna tell my story and I'm gonna hold my head up. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio.

[Karen Kilgariff]

App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're siblings.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, you fight, you disagree. It's really hard to be in a partnership. You judge. Yeah, you judge each other. You. You lead differently, and we've got gotten to that edge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, I'm Simone Boyce, host of the Bright side, and this week I'm joined by Hollywood power sisters Erin and Sarah Foster. They open up about navigating the judginess of Hollywood, dealing with rejection and the pressure of running a business with your sibling. And yeah, they're spilling the tea on season two of their hit Netflix series. Nobody wants this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like the overall consensus was like, people were just obsessed with this. Will they, won't they? Like, that's the thing, right? It's just intoxicating. You want to be able to sustain that for as many seasons. But you also have to, like, marry Them off eventually. I don't know what you season for. You'll marry them off, Aaron.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I don't even know if they're staying together, Sarah. Y', all, this conversation is honest, hilarious and everything you didn't know you needed this week. Listen to the bright side on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Who's first? I'm first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're first?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm first this week. All right. This is a real fun one. Don't look.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why do you keep literally this piece of paper? Has been. Anytime it's within two feet of me, she snatches it away and goes, don't look. I get the point of the podcast. I'm not gonna fucking sneak and read it and be like, huh?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because I would look. I'm amazed they haven't looked at your heard this already. All right, so let's talk about two dudes who are total pieces of shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also known as the Speed Freak Killers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nobody. We'll see. Nobody knows about him. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But a bunch of speed freaks in the audience are like, uh, oh, is it me?

[Georgia Hardstark]

They found out. They found him. Arrest this man. And then they come in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That would actually be an amazing end.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of the show, like a Phil Collins concert.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You saw me when you were drowning and you did not land a cand. That's not how it goes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I actually. There was like a kid who drove me here from my hotel and I was telling him about. About the podcast that I was listening to about Boston Stranglers. And he was like, never heard of them. And I'm like, oh, you're 21 and you don't know about murders?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyways. Okay, he's about to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Speed freak Jared.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen up. What's his name? Jared.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lauren Herzog And Wesley Shermantine Jr. Were childhood friends. They grew up on the same street, like right by each other in a farming town called Linden, California. Yeah. Fucked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They. Hold on. They might actually just like the names of towns in California. Is that what you're doing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm hmm. It's like those people who eat like they're at a restaurant and someone else is getting sung Happy Birthday and they have to sing along with it too. And you're like two years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They don't know you. Okay. They grew up together. It's 95 miles east of California. They were hunters. They graduated high school in 84, and they gained a reputation as meth users.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, me too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not in 1984, though. It's believed that Herzog and Shermantine began Murdering people when they were around 18 or 19. Although it's possible it started earlier than that. Even so, Shermantine would brag to his friends and families about making people disappear. Which is what you want in a sibling.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Their family's like, I'm in. Take that in the way that I choose to interpret it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, are you a magician? You can make people disappear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Finally you have an interest that we can get into. Magic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You do it. Do it. Okay. Their first known victim was in 1985. A 16 year old Stockton, California girl named Chevy Wheeler. Dised it says she had been dating and she had been dating 19 year old Wesley and had ditched school that day to hang out with him. Don't hang out with your 19 year old boyfriend when you ditch your school, ma'. Am.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Be cool Stan school.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then you'll get to be this. No, we dropped out of college.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We really didn't finish any school at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Skin of my teeth. Okay, so then, so she had been dating him. She left to hang out with him. Never seen again. Her blood was found in his cabin that he had. But the district attorney didn't think the DNA evidence was definitive, so. Nope.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, he's the one that would know in 1984.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's just splattered willy nilly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Blood is meaningless to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I know. I'm like, what does it mean? You know? So then in 98. So that was 80. Now we're 98. And then Cindy Van Der Heyden, she's 25 of the San Joaquin Valley, disappears from the Linden Bar Inn, which sounds like a fucking dive bar that you don't want to be in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean if like the inn I n N at the end of any bar, you don't go there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No. She had been seen talking to Lauren and Wesley. And actually Lauren had dated her older sister. So they knew each other. And supposedly they all live left together, the three of them. Then her car is found by her dad the next day like outside of local cemetery. And it's like a new car. And the dad was like what the fuck is her car doing there? And like they panic and it's really sad then so she disappears. And then the cops are like wait a second. He has something to do. Wesley has something to do with Cindy's disappearance. And they were like 13 years later, earlier, this other one, they're like putting the pieces together so they can't get his DNA, but they repossess his car when he doesn't pay for it. Pay the payments and they fucking swab that shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All that meaningless DNA is suddenly realized.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Suddenly it's 98 and people give a shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, can I tell you about his tattoos real quick?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lauren had made and fueled by hate and restrained by reality.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, say it again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Made and fueled by hate and restrained by reality.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But he's already killed two people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So he's not being restrained by anything. Sounds like our government also. That's why I whispered that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't know what you said.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh. I said, sounds like our government.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then I get shot. Send hate mail to georgiaorgia. What was the thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just wondered what the picture underneath that phrase was like. Just like a fun. Like a seal with a ball on its nose or something. I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like a baby chick.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like the Notre Dame Irishman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Restrained by reality, you know? It was a Tasmanian Devil.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he's wearing cutoff jeans. Totally. Yes. Just all mad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He also had a tattoo on his right foot that said, made the devil do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Made the devil do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Unless I. Unless I'm. No, I copied and pasted that. Made the devil do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So his foot made the devil do something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Apparently the Devil's like, dude, I'm good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't involve me in your bullshit. The Devil said, I can do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Without Matt, and so I don't even. So, da, da, da. He's okay. This motherfucker is married with children, of course. And then he offers to give DNA once they start looking into Wesley as Buddy Wesley. So the police pick him up, they're gonna bring him to the station. And in the car on the way to the station, he starts fucking crying and asks what he can do to get out of this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait. He may have been crying about those tattoos, though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fair enough. I don't even like the Tasmanian Devil anymore.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was made by hate. It feels bad to hate.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he gets interrogated for 17 hours, confesses to the murder of Cindy. He says that they met her at a bar, they were gonna go do drugs. Wesley did everything. Attempts to rape her. She resists, they pull over, bad things happen. And he. So Lauren was, like, stabbing Cindy or Lauren said that when Wesley was stabbing Cindy, he said, just let it come natural. I know. He told detectives that Wesley was responsible for at least 24 murders.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He doesn't confess to anything himself, though, and just makes it seem like he's an accomplice. Of course.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure. You're just standing by. Just murder again. I wanted to go to Dave and Buster's. God damn it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He said we could go after. So I said okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So next day Wesley's arrested. Lauren keeps talking, tells him about the 84 killing spree. That they just shot two fucking random dudes who were hanging out outside their car. And he confesses to killing a man. A 41 year man named Henry Howell. He's at the side of his road with his broken car and they just go up and shoot him. It's in 1984 in Hope Valley in 2000. 34 year old Wesley goes on trial for four murders. But Loren's confession of what happened, his 17 hour interrogation is inadmissible because the tape couldn't be cross examined.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The jury finds him guilty though of first degree murder in all four cases. He's offered a deal to sentencing that the death penalty would be off the table if they told him where the bodies of Cindy and Chevy were. But he also wanted the $20,000 reward that had been offered for their whereabouts. Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He found them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You should absolutely get $20,000 of the reward for finding you the murderer. That is totally how it works.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sounds like our government. Let's just keep doing it. Let's just keep doing it all night long.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's fine. We're going to Vancouver tomorrow. We can just stay there if we need to. I forgot my passion, so I might. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. It's being worked out. My husband is a dear sweet angel who's FedExing things. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. The family about the $20,000 reward says go fuck yourself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no, no. Good, they said. So he's sentenced to death. Then Lauren is tried for the murder of five people, including Cindy. His video is admissible. Now he's found guilty of first degree in three killings. And he gets life without the possibility of parole. But wait. Nope. It gets worse. In 2004, a state appeals court overturned Loren's conviction. Saying the police coerced his confession during the long interrogations. And they said that the police ignored his rights to remain silent. Depp provided deprived him of all this shit. A new trial order. But Herzog's lawyer worked out a plea deal with the prosecutors. He agreed to plead plead guilty to manslaughter and accessory to murder in exchange for a 14 year sentence with credit for a time search. He's always out on parole on September 18, 2010.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait a second. It's 2017.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. He goes lives in like a shitty home. They keep an eye on him. He's got all this tracking device. But don't worry guys. He Kills, kills himself. So he basically, when he finds out that Wesley is going to tell them where the bodies are, he's like, oh shit. And kills himself. He is offered $33,000. Wesley is by a bounty hunter to tell him where the bodies are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. I think he tricked him though. So let's see. He provides maps to five burial sites where his victims could be found, referring to one of them as their boneyard. And they find Cindy and Chevy's bodies. And there's three separate burial sites. And human remains are found there. At least 300 human bones of varying size, as well as coats, shoes, purses and jewelry from a well on the land in rural North California. I thought you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For a second, I thought they fucking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit go over here. They found other remains in a well. And so dental records identify Cindy and Chevy. And they find almost a thousand human bone fragments in an old abandoned well. And including a woman named Joanne Hobson. She was 16 years old, went missing in 85. And Wesley Clark that there are as many as 72 victims.

[Karen Kilgariff]

72 in that amount of time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you believe. Yeah, can you believe that? Like I didn't even hear about these dudes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I've never heard of this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've seen their names but actually when I was doing this research, I had a ghost. There's no place that just explains what happened and like who got who was just who disappeared. It's always like there's an article about these two women who disappeared. There's an article about him killing himself. There's like little fragments, but there's nothing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not all underneath the one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. So I had him make it. She's like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And maybe, maybe make up some facts. Whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. Tattoos. You're not gonna know if he has those tattoos or not. He's dead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause that's so many.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, why would you make. I don't know, it's just this like. Well, if it was from like 84 to 90, there's a lot of time in there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, they also believe that he's connected. They're connected.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Almost. Almost 14 years. Is it 14?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, they also believe that they may be connected to the 88 disappearance of 9 year old Michella Garrick from Hayward. You remember that one? She was abducted on November 19, 1988 in broad daylight at outside a grocery store. She found her scooter. It had been moved next to A parked car. And she goes to get it, some motherfucker grabs her and puts her in the car. And what's it called when they draw your face? Sketch. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I thought you said what's it called when they draw on your face? I'm like falling asleep at a frat party. What the fuck is. What is this story?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's happening Sketch of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got it. Got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the other sketch. Yes. And it looks just fucking like Lauren. Like, it's just creepy. And so she. Her case was the first missing child case to be featured on America's Most Wanted. So Wesley, one of the speed freak dudes, wrote a letter saying that Lauren committed. No, no, no. That's a copy and paste mistake that he said that they should look into. What happened, happened to that Hayward girl and actually found shoes at the bottom of the well that looked like the ones she was wearing that day. I know. Sweet baby. Okay, so Central Valley Department destroyed a bunch of missing person record, though. So we might not ever know that. Okay. And the other suspected victims that have been that are look like is Terry Ann Forcher from Reno. Dina McCann. She was last seen getting gas near Lodi while two men were bothering her. And then Kimberly Ann Billy disappeared from Stockton. And Robin Armchrout, whose body was found stabbed to death and was last seen getting into a car with two men. And the car matched the description of Wesley's. So he's still on death row. And when he got. He's like opening up a lot more now. And he said, that's good. I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He said doing some poetry and stuff, like, really accessing his feelings.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's like doing the thing of like, oh, yeah, I fucked up. Okay. I get it. My son won't talk to me anymore. So I know how these parents feel of losing their children. Not even fucking kidding you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I mean, look, I don't know. There's nothing else to say about that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have some wisdom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look, meth is bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It really is. He says now to think about all that stuff I did. I try not to. I would have nightmares.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck you, pal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Night night, motherfucker.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Speed freak killers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The speed freak killers, everybody. Shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. That's your fucking doing. Northern California. You guys didn't do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we're back. Okay. Do you have updates for this case?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do. As of May 2023, San Joaquin county detectives, Jeremy Davis, who grew up in Herman's neighborhood, and Chris. I know. I mean, they're all like, locals and it's small townie, blue collar, you know, yeah. And Chris Sterny are methodically reviewing decades of unsolved cases, particularly in rural areas between Stockton and Tracy, to look for patterns and possible links to Shermantine and Herzog. And so Items recovered in 2012, like a ring, sandals, and a locket, are now being publicly released by investigators in hopes someone recognizes those items and helps identify the mysterious Jane Doe from the well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And can you imagine, like, you have a missing daughter and you have to go look at those items online to try to see if you recognize.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I can't imagine. And the article about that, there's an article in the Sacramento News and Review by Scott Thomas Anderson, and it's a really great article if you want to read about that. It's got some stuff about the Golden State Killer as well. And it's just, you know, more heartbreak. Yeah. And then due to California's changing stance on the death penalty, Wesley Shermantine was moved off of death row in 2024. He remains in prison and hopefully always will.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those murders were horrific.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So bad. I'm glad I did them and we got them out of the way and we never have to do them again until we do the next rewind of this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Then we have to look it all in the face once again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, let's get into Karen's story about Herbert Mullen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robaix, and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart podcasts, where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off. Each week I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club. Visit Apple Co Reesapplebooks to find out more. Betrayal Weekly is back for season two.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With brand new stories. The detective comes driving up fast and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like screeches right in the parking lot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I swear I'm not crazy, but I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Think he poisoned me. I feel trapped. My breathing changes. More money, more money, more money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I went white. I realized, wow, like, he is not a mentor. He's pretty Much a monster. New stories, new voices, and shocking manipulations.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This didn't just happen to me. It happened to hundreds of other people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But these aren't just stories of destruction. They're stories of survival, of people picking up the pieces and daring to tell the truth. I'm going to tell my story, and I'm going to hold my head up. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio.

[Karen Kilgariff]

App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're siblings.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, you fight, you disagree. It's really hard to be in a partnership.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You judge each other, you lead differently.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we've got gotten to that edge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, I'm Simone Boyce, host of the Bright side, and this week I'm joined by Hollywood power sisters Erin and Sarah Foster. They open up about navigating the judginess of Hollywood, dealing with rejection and the pressure of running a business with your sibling. And, yeah, they're spilling the tea on season two of their hit Netflix series. Nobody wants this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like the overall consensus was, like, people were just obsessed with this. Will they, won't they? Like, that's the thing, right? It's just intoxicating. You want to be able to sustain that for as many seasons, but you also have to, like, marry them off eventually. I don't know what you're season for. You'll marry them off, Erin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I don't even know if they're staying together.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sarah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Y', all, this conversation is honest, hilarious, and everything you didn't know you needed this week. Listen to the Bright side on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, now I get comfy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, now you're gonna dig in. Wow. Mine also did drugs. He did a lot of drugs, my guy. He doesn't really have a funny nickname like many of them do, although you've probably heard of him. His name is Herbert Mullen, and Herbert Mullen. Thank you. Herbert Mullen is the. The serial killer from It's Fenton, California, near Santa Cruz and represent Go Banana Slugs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that a thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. This UC Santa Cruz mascot is a banana slug. No. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She fucking with me. Really?

[Karen Kilgariff]

The children, they got to vote on their own mascot, and because irony is fun, they chose a banana slug.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no. Never let children choose anything important. When I was in soccer, we were the Teal Tornado. Like, you just gotta pick your own stupid things. And kids are dumb, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I mean, it is college.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, Jesus Christ. That's even worse. Wow. Really?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I'm disappointed they love pot. So who does? So Herbert Mullen was the guy. You may have heard of him. It happened in the 70s. He was the one that was active at the same time as Edmund Kemper, the co ed killer, who was also in Santa Cruz. So Santa Cruz in the early 70s had two full on serial killers at the same time, earning it the nickname Murderville usa. Yeah, our own little Santa Cruz.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Work, live, play, murder, Bill Ewitt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Murder, hide, bum out. But unlike Edmund Kemper, Herbert Mullin was killing for our benefit. He believed that he had to make human sacrifices so that earthquakes wouldn't hit California.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did anyone ever tell him that earthquakes are kind of of fun though?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, he's very, he's clearly very scared of earthquakes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Idiot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He didn't want them to happen. And let me tell you about him. I'll tell you a little bit about him. So he was born on April 18, 1947 to a very strict Catholic family. He was in high school. He was good looking, athletic and polite. The trifecta. No, be careful. I'm telling you, it is not good to peak in high school. School.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Psychotic or charming? Yeah, somewhere in between is what you want.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're hiding behind those beautiful teeth. Good luck. He was actually voted most likely to succeed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he did, I guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he, well, some saw it as a success. After graduating in 1965, he went to college. He majored in engineering. And he considered following in his father's footsteps of joining in the military. But the turning point of his otherwise normal life came around the time when his best friend was killed in a car accident. And this was the first moment where he, his, a psychotic episode was triggered. So he was right at the age where schizophrenia starts to show in young men. And, and basically it was the stress and the grief. He had this psychotic episode and his behavior began to change entirely and his family started to get really scared of him. So his friend died. He built a shrine in his room to his friend. He started arranging all the furniture in his room around the shrine. And he would sit at it for hours and hours alone. He had to break up with his girlfriend, explaining to her that he thought he was turning gay because of the shrine. Just turn into a gate, just slowly turning, turning, turning. He was gonna let her know when he turned entirely, but he didn't feel comfortable leading her on. I'm lying about all that part. He became obsessed with the concept of reincarnation and he became increasingly paranoid and he started hearing voices. So his behavior was really scaring his family because he was starting to do super weird things like beg his sister for sex.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So gay. Such a gay move. And he also was doing a thing that he began to compulsively imitate every movement his brother in law made.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

His sister was also married, so it was sinful in many ways that he was begging her for sex.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The movement was sex?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that the move?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, just every movement. So this is actually a real disorder called echopraxia.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, there's. Echopraxia is when you have the compulsion to imitate every single thing a person does.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Even if you don't want to, you just have to keep it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a compulsion. And echolalia is the compulsion to repeat anything someone says.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's the compulsion? I want to screw your sister. Gross.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I guess that's called Game of Thrones. Yeah. Thank you. All the way up in the back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking pro over here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyway, okay, so in the early 70s, in an attempt to calm himself, he began to take huge doses of lsd. What a perfect solution. He also was taking a lot of amphetamines. No. Yeah, just a little bit to bring him up after he went into that other dimension.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That sounds like a no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just for a little energy. I'm not a doctor, but if you're feeling paranoid, think you're seeing things. Acid isn't the way. It's just not. It's a non solution.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And if you're paranoid and think you're seeing things because you're on acid. Meth isn't the way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right. Let's not like don't double down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, don't go into the white drug area.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, pick a drug. No, don't do drugs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You guys don't do drugs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But if you're.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But if you're gonna, you know, listen, you know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ow. You know, you know, Just hit myself in the face with the mic. What's up? You missed it. I wanted to tell you that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I wrote here, maybe try some aromatic oils.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't you love yourself at that moment? Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was fun. I was having a great time drinking this huge thing of coffee. I was enjoying myself. So Herbert came to believe that his friend's death had been a part of a grand cosmic plan. And he changed his college major from engineering to philosophy. He became obsessed with reincarnation, religion, and take note, impending natural disasters. So in 1969, he was finally diagnosed with severe paranoid schizophrenia. And he allowed his family to commit him to Mendocino State Hospital. One of the many State hospitals, that doesn't exist anymore because they cut the funding for mental health, which is fucked. Let's see what we can do for government America.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did your mom work there?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mendocino's way up north, but she did work, work in a state hospital. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't let a city go bye, can you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it's. All of California has come to see us tonight. It's so exciting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know a single person here. No, there's nobody on my. No, there wasn't. You don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if you find out that you do? Okay, so Herbert spent the following years. Oh, he. Sorry. He went to Mendocino State Hospital. I preach, preach, preach. And then the back half of that was he checked himself out six weeks later. So then he spent the following years drifting around Northern California, working small time jobs, spending short periods of time in various mental institutions. He practiced yoga, meditation, ate a macrobiotic diet. Yet he was vocally ultra conservative.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And essential oils, probably, and maybe he.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was using some essential oils, which was my idea. He spent time as an amateur boxer. He actually had to be forcibly removed from the ring when he wouldn't stop beating his opponent. Hey, hey, you're an amateur. You don't have to kill that guy. At one point he attempted to join the priesthood and they were like, no thanks. Which is really saying something. All right, so in this time, Herbert is fixating on impending natural disasters, of course, also doing tons of acid. And he comes up with a theory. He becomes convinced that nature requires a blood sacrifice to keep the next big earthquake from hitting California. He theorized that the violence during the Vietnam War had been enough bloodshed to control earthquakes throughout the late 60s. But now that the war was over, there was nothing to stop the big, the Big One from destroying the state.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How does he know the percentage of blood to like the percentage of year, like the number of years? You know what I mean? Because he was an engineer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I know. It's like a typical, like, oh, actually it's this much blood. Of course.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is how many people were killed in Vietnam. And.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, Herbert. Herbert believed that because his birthday was April 18, same day as the 1906 earthquake that leveled San Francisco and the death day of Albert Einstein. That this made him the leader of his generation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's all you need.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking A. Birthday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One good birthday. And as the leader, it was his job to make sure enough people died to prevent the Big One from killing everyone. So he had to begin murdering people for the good of mankind before that And I swear to God, this is a classic cut and paste. Before that, he had considered relocating to Canada. Wish you'd done that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then you'd have your murder for tomorrow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Something else tonight, I'd just do Herbert Mullen up there. So it turns out Herbert Mullen hates maple syrup. All right, so it starts on October 13, 1972. Herbert Mullen is 24 years old. He drives home to visit his parents. Oh. In Felton, California. Sorry, not Fenton. Fenton. I said Fenton. It's Felton. My apologies to the mayor and the comptroller. So, if you don't know, Felton is this tiny town. It's north of Santa Cruz on the nine. It's right in those, like, right? Give it up for the nine, everybody. One of the better small highways of California. California. There's redwoods everywhere. It's actually gorgeous.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so gorgeous.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Perfect place to put a body, I bet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. It's also where I went to camp.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, yeah, Camp St. Andrews.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Children's live bodies at a camp.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean. Wait for it. Okay. So as he's driving down, he's going back to visit his parents. And he later tells that this is when he received a telepathic message from his father saying, herb, I want you to kill me somebody. So you don't listen to your parents all your life, and this is when you're gonna fucking start listening to your. Come on, Herb.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dad's drinking a ham beer at. Ham's Beer at home. Like, I don't fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't do it. Yeah. Don't bring me into this shit. Okay? So Herbert Mullin, as he's driving on the 9, he sees a homeless man named Lawrence White who was on the side of the road. So what he does is he pulls over and he lifts the hood of his car, feigning car trouble. And when the man comes over to ask if he needs any help, Herbert Mullen bludgeons him to death with a baseball bat and leaves his body where it lays. And that man is found a few days later.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Days.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A few days later.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On the side of the road.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Because it's, like, way up in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nobody goes up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Forest land. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Remote. So less than two weeks later, it gets worse, as. Should I sing this song? It gets so much worse, and it really. No, thank you. I. Oh, thank you. But also, it really does. So two weeks later, Herbert picked up a hitchhiker named Mary Guilfoyle who is a student at UC Santa Cruz. Don't cheer for it because. Because listen to this. He stabbed her in the heart in his car. Then he brought her body into the woods near the roadside. He cut her open, he hanged her intestines from tree branches, and he examined them for pollution. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For fuck's sake.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her remains weren't found for several months. And. And when they were discovered, the police assumed that this murder was the work of Edmund Kemper. Because, you know, they weren't like, oh, it could be another fucking serial killer in Santa Cruz.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know that other one? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why don't you guys just go on that roller coaster down by the sea and relax? All right? So Mary Guilfoyle's murder haunted Mullen so to the point where on November 2nd, All Souls Day, he walked into Los Gatos Catholic Church. He took confession with Father Henry Tomsey, and he confessed everything. He talked about these murders in detail. But then when he was done, a voice told him that this priest was offering himself up as a sacrifice. How many times do I have to warn you? So Mullen stabbed Father Tomsy to death in the confessional and then walked out of the church.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But then how do we know that he said all that to him?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry?

[Georgia Hardstark]

How do we know that he confessed all that to him, then he told the police everything. Oh, I get the other one. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He proudly told his own story at the end of this insanity.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so then he tries to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To enlist in the Marine Corps, a natural next step. And though he did pass both the physical and psychiatric exam.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, he was rejected when they brought up his arrest record and saw his history of bizarre behavior.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, he was colorblind, but otherwise, you're fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's fine. What? Flat feet. Get out of here. He later claimed that he never would have become a serial killer if he had just been accepted into the Marines.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You've already killed three fucking people, dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's kind of a fake excuse, you have to admit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this rejection affects him a lot, to the point where he stops taking massive amounts of acid and every day. But his severe, violent, paranoid schizophrenia is out of control, totally untreated. He believes that this rejection from the Marines is just another example of the conspiracy against him in his life. He also accuses his parents of participating in this conspiracy. He accuses them of being, quote, killjoy, reincarnational, and which is not a real thing, who believe their next lives would be more enjoyable if they made the current lives of others miserable.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Man, can you imagine just being a parent? You're like, I want to have Babies. I do too. I love you. And then you just have this fucking asshole.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you just birth an asshole out onto the fucking table, man. Tough. But also, it's kind of funny because then, also, then I just think of like, when you're 13, it's kind of just a teenage mentality of like, my parents live to make everyone else's lives awful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're reincarnationists. Damn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fucking reincarnationalists. All right. So swept up in his paranoid delusions, Mullen decides to kill Jim Genera, his high school pot dealer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's a weird choice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is. It doesn't work that way, Herbert. He believes that because Jim sold him pot that he was part of the plot to destroy his mind and that he had to avenge himself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The guy's like, I fucking sold you oregano, dude. Yeah, that was a pot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why isn't it ever your fault, Herb? Why isn't it on you ever? All right, so around the same time, a voice told Mullen to buy a gun because it would be a cleaner way of killing people. On January 25, 1973, Herbert Mullin drove to Jim Gennara's house, or where Jim Gennara lived when they were in high school. When he got there, he met current resident Cathy Francis, and she explained that Genara didn't live there anymore. Herbert explained that he was a friend of Jim's. And so Kathy gave Mullen Jim's new address. That night, Mullen drove to the Gennara's new home and shot and killed Jim Genara and his wife Joan. And then stabbed them both repeatedly post mortem. Yeah, he then went back and murdered Kathy Francis.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I thought she got away.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And her two young sons. No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Guys, it's in the name. My favorite murder. You know what I mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because both Jim Genera and Kathy Francis husband had dealt drugs at one time, the police assumed that both of the murders being same MO had to to be drug related.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Less than two weeks later, Mullin saw four teenage boys camping in Henry Cowell Redwood State Park.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You've been there?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah. In fact, I didn't have time to look it up, but that might be where we went to camp. I'm not kidding.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you serious?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, there's a bunch of state parks, but I would like it to be. These boys were David Ohliker, 18, Robert Spector, 18, Brian Card, 19, and. And Mark Drabelbiss, 15. Mullins approached them posing as a park ranger and told them to leave, claiming that they were polluting the park.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Uh oh, there's that word again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fucking hippies. When the boys dismissed him, he pulled the gun, shot them all one by one. He stole a rifle from that campsite and then he left. Herbert Mullins final murder took place on February 3rd, 1973.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

73 year old Fred Perez was gardening in his front yard. Mullen drove by and shot him with the rifle that he stole from that campsite. Luckily, a neighbor witnessed the whole thing, wrote down Mullin's license plate number, called the police, and Herbert Mullen was arrested shortly thereafter with no incident. It is a nice feeling, isn't it? Yeah. The guy. And he was arrested without incident. He was just like, yep, all right, we're done here. Wow. But then they get to the police station. This is kind of my favorite part.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They get to the police station. And Mullen was totally uncooperative. His response to every question the police asked was silence. Which you have to admit, would be kind of fun if you got arrested.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The police were like, where were you on that asylum?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm gonna try it next time I get arrested, I think.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or really anytime. I mean, you're welcome too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So when Edmund Kemper, the CO Ed killer, was arrested, he and Mullen were briefly held in adjoining cells. Santa Cruz besties and Santa Cruz best friends. Killing all around the floor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You think they became blood brothers through the face?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Keep it up. Keep it up, you fucking psycho. Kemper actually accused Mullen of stealing his dump sites, which is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, Ed, I didn't know that you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ed, relax. He didn't even use dump sites, you fucking idiot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's enough for everybody. Everyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Eventually, Herbert Mullen confessed to all 13 murders, explaining to police that these human sacrifices were necessary for earthquake prevention. Only you can prevent forest fires, he said to the police. And then he yelled, silence.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that how they came up with the only you can prevent forest fire? Forest. Oh, did you know that was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He looked a little bit like a bear. And they were like, hold on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he was naked from the waist down with a hat on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really deep voice. He also claimed that he had telepathically asked those four boys at the campsite if he could kill them and that they'd all given him permission.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At least two of them would have been like, fuck no. You know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That's when the police began to beat him senseless. Really? It's not on the Internet anywhere. But we can pretty much be assured in the end. Mullen was found guilty of two. Two counts of first degree murder. Because they proved that Kathy Francis and Jim Genera's murders were premeditated. But everything else they could not prove that. Also because he was so insane. So he had eight counts of secondary degree murder. He was sent sentenced to life in prison. He will be eligible for all for parole in 2021 when he is 74 years old. I doubt it'll work. I doubt it'll work out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Probably not, but, you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's it. That's all pretty good, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen, listen. Don't go off your meds, everyone. No, I don't care what the fucking specter of your dad is telling you. Yeah, don't go off your meds.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. If you hear voices, and I mean like even if there's someone standing behind you in line talking, get on those meds.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep, I agree.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I agree. Okay. And we're back. Karen, any updates?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So Herbert Mullen was never granted parole. He died in prison of natural causes in 2022. So since I told the story of Herbert Mullen, there have been several either new or expanded mental health facilities that have opened in California. One in Madera and then one in Santa Rosa, which is the big town near Petaluma. There's Sacramento, Glendora, which is obviously all great. We need those kinds of facilities, except for that they're for profit. So some of these new facilities have been linked to serious problems like understaffing, patient neglect and even abuse and death. So awful, it's an oversight issue. In 2023, voters approved billions in funding to expand behavioral health infrastructure. But if we don't have stricter regulation, then those problems are. They're just going to keep making things unsafe until all of that stuff gets. Gets seriously regulated. So while there's technically more mental health care now, it's a mixed bag because it doesn't mean better care.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, you can't help but think about the fact that it's like if it's for profit, why would they want people to get better? You know, like if a bed is filled, that's good, that's a positive. That like doesn't. That doesn't equate getting treatment. Right? Right. So, yes, that's just never gonna happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's never gonna happen in that where you're putting the. The goal way behind. The financial gain will always be fucked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But, you know, that seems like such an old argument when we're literally building concentration camps in this country.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This would be a great argument to have if someone else was in the office. But none of it now matters. This is all mute. This is All a moot point because.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Put on mute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's mute the shit out of it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The only thing. And that lately, especially with how egregious and insane everything is getting, it makes me go like. It almost makes me feel like everybody's gonna be able to come together, or at least a larger percentage than could before to say, hey, what we need is oversight and regulation. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. No, I'm. I'm serious. Yes. I hope so. I hope so. We'll see if we have that opportunity or if that's taken away from us, too. Hey, you know, we do have an opportunity for though, a hometown at this live show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Chloe came and she talked the very upsetting Tara Linda barbecue murders. I think we have time to do a hometown murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think so, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now, here's the cool part. We know who we're gonna pick.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because her name is Chloe. Yeah, Chloe, where are you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Oh, she was fucking lying. She was fucking with us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is there any way to bring these lights up a little bit? Chloe, you said you were going to be at the back of the orchestra pit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what this is, I think, right? I hear. There she comes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Chloe, do you know what an orchestra pit is? Because if you're yelling from anywhere that's not here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did we forget to tell them that we're going to have someone from the audience?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Chloe, you're from Oakland. There she is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did she have a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can you. Yeah, yeah, go over there. Look over there. Look at that girl in the plaid shirt. Chloe, listen to my voice. See that girl that's waving her arms? Go to her. Jesus Christ. We rehearsed this 15 times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that poor baby. If she wasn't nervous before, I am now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We really built it up. Now I'm mad at her. Get out here, guys. God damn it. These people are waiting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Hey, you're fine. It's fine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's going on? You just get a throw up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So am I. You look so cute. Georgia. That's Georgia. That's Chloe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love you so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you really Chloe? Yes, I am.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, Chloe tweeted at us. It's fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just signed up for Twitter yesterday. Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's get her some followers. What's your handle? What's your handle?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We'll get you some followers, Chloe Doors. That's my name.

[Georgia Hardstark]

D O O R S R E S oh, that's adorable. There's a couple. There she goes. She's gonna have at least 2, 000 followers by tomorrow here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So let's center Up. Let's center up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Chloe, none of this is real, so don't worry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's get a nice stage picture. Chloe, you be in the middle. I can't see any of you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I know, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just don't look at them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have a hometown murder for us. I wrote it down. Really? Yeah. I can't do this. Okay. All right, I got it. Read it. All right. I mean, we wish you would have memorized it. That's what we do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just wing it. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'd like to pull a Van Morrison and just face the back of the stage right now. That's badass. Yes. Radio. Here we go. Stare at my back while I tell you this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We can all do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, wait. Let's really quick.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where are you from? I am from Fairfax. They love Fairfax. Tiny, tiny, tiny town in Marin. Not far from Petaluma.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. Who are you here with?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is why I tweeted you avidly. Okay. Fair facts. Anyway, who are you here with? I'm here with my husband. Hi, Luke. And my good friend Katie. I can't see you guys. I'm pointing like I can point. It's fine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, see you guys tomorrow. I'm gonna hang out with Karen and Georgia tonight. No, she's not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We all get cake.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I am. Okay. So let's hear this hometown story. Is this a Fairfax murder? No, it's very close. Tara Linda. Okay. It's Tara Linda. Yes. Super creepy. This is called the Barbecue Murders. I'm not fucking with you. I wrote it down. I'm terrified right now. Just read it. Terra Linda is like a weird suburban colony of San Rafael. It's not a town.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's where the mall is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's where you go to go to the mall. That's right. It's eerie. It's super weird there. So I'm just gonna read because I will start talking and barfing all over. It'd be kind of cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what our podcast motto is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're super punk rock like that. I was. I was born in 1982. So it's clearly. This is not about you. So it was a rainy day in October. Let's just say that there's this thing about Teralinda. It just feels like it was stuck in the 80s. It's like you go there to go to the mall, and it's the 80s and it's creepy. And there's the Kaiser up on the hill. That's all that there is there. And a bunch of And a bunch of tract housing and like a Sizzler. Yeah, I used to get my allergy shots at that Kaiser three times a week. Did you really? Yeah, yeah, girl. Anyway, this really horrible, horrible double murder happened there in 1975. Okay, here come my notes. Let's hear them. By a 16 year old girl named Marlene Olive. And her fucking loser boyfriend named chuck. He was 20, she was 16 and he was 20. It was the 70s. Every 20 year old in the 70s was named Chuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And dating a 6 year old and a lizard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, this is the guy that sold drugs to the high school kids. Not for money, but to be cool. Yeah. And remember when you said a fact or you just theorized? I got that off Wikipedia, girl. You know? Okay. Anyway, they started dating and Marlene was really troubled and she was adopted. And she found out when she was really young that she was adopted on accident. So she was all kinds of fucked up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she wasn't adopted on accident. She was adopted and she found out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you. She found out on accident.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I heard some gasps, like, clarification.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We have a kid now. No, we have to keep her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I brought the wrong. The wrong luggage at the airport. Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, she had a great relationship with her adoptive father, but her adoptive mother was a schizophrenic alcoholic who was psychotic and was really mean to her and basically told her that her birth mom was a prostitute and she was going to be one too. And all the stuff that makes you up, I mean. Yes. And then young Marlene yelled back, sex worker. Exactly, exactly. It was the 70s. It was the 70s. And needle, needless to say, it was the 70s. Marlene got super into the occult. It's not real. And doing lots of drugs. And she hated her mom, obviously, because she was crazy and super mean. And she decided that her parents had to die. And she also decided that her loser boyfriend had to be the one to kill them. Well, that's a good call, actually. Keep your hands clean, Marlene. Right. I mean, you gotta be 16, not so dumb. Anyway, she had all the control in the relationship, obviously, because he agreed to do it. So one day she leaves the house with her dad. And Chuck sneaks in and kills Naomi, her mom, with a hammer and a knife. And. And some other stuff. And then. And then Marlene's dad, Jim comes home, finds Chuck, and Chuck shoots him as well. So both parents are dead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Chuck and Marleene clean up the place and take the bodies to this beautiful state park in San Rafael called China Camp. China Camp? Yeah. I've had to make he's big mouth or two there myself, like gorgeous. Gorgeous. I can't go there ever again. And also, just FYI, the barbecue pit that they set the parents on fire in has been removed. So don't try to find it. Yeah, don't worry about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're like, why does this burger taste.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hence the barbecue. Yeah, I'm a vegan. Set mom and dad on fire. Went home kind of right after they did that because logic left them burning. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And then they went to go live in the Olives home for about three days. The plan was to wait until the parents were pronounced dead and they collected the life insurance and then they could go move to Ecuador.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's as simple as that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Live their lives. I can't imagine that plan didn't involve a joint. At some point, apparently they went to a yes concert.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Do not blame this on yes. Do not blame the. I don't even care.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't even. Anyway, they were caught, of course, because they're idiots. He is in prison for life. She went to some juvenile something. She was 15 or 16. She was released after two years, moved to LA, became some superstar in the, like, forgery. She did a lot of forgery. Oh, yeah. And you now know her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gwyneth Paltry. I thought that's where you were going. She's a superstar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't say anything. Similarities are uncanny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Uncanny.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We all have past. Exactly. I quickly have two connections to this murder. Besides just being a super weird kid and totally obsessed with this, at the age of 10, I made my mom drive me to the house that it happened in. So I go, when you were 10? Yes. And your mom did it? Oh, yeah. Yes. She was like secretly, I think, kind of into it. Even though she was like this. That's weird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If I had a 10 year old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone says that she was into it. We drove by. But the really creepy thing is that when I was 13, I started babysitting for a family about a block away from that house. And it's all tract housing there, so all the houses are the same. In the bestselling true crime book by Richard Levine about this story called Bad Blood, A Marin County Family Murder. Oh, so there's a colon at the end of Blood. Okay. He draws a layout of the home where both of these parents were murdered. And it's exactly the same as the house that I used to babysit in. And I just remember being 13 and putting these kids down and walking around.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And being like, this is where this happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm Scintillated and excited and. And terrified. Pretty much everything I'm feeling right now. I'm done. That's it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Chloe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Chloe, everybody. Nice. Beautifully done. Beautifully done. So good. Really good. From a tweet. We trusted the tweet, Chloe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, did you just tell her to go away?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nothing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was magical.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I love when that happens. And it's not like some weird person.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. It never is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I mean, we've done it twice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's true. That is true. I just like that. What if we didn't. If we were just like, forget it. We're not gonna do that. And then she would have that little folded up piece of paper in her pocket. But that's not what happened, everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, it's someone else now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here. I'm going to pretend like it was your story. Georgia, do you have any updates for Chloe's case?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my gosh. Karen. Well, no updates, but we do have a corrections corner. Corner, corner. During the show, Chloe stated that Charles Riley was in prison for life. In fact, Riley was originally granted parole in 2014, nearly 40 years after his conviction for the 1975 double murder of Naomi and Jim Olive. The parole board cited his decades of model behavior, completion of rehabilitation programs, and expressed remorse. Psychological evaluations concluded he posed a low risk of reoffending. Governor Jerry Brown reversed the decision in 2014, but a state appeals court overturned that reversal in 2015, allowing Riley to be released at the age of 59. Which, I mean, the whole point is rehabilitation, Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Completely. I mean, if he. If he had to pass all of those tests, then there are like. Yep. We're putting him through every possible stress test, and he's passing. Yes. Let him out. Because he was a very young man when this happened.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What you do when you're 20, like, yeah, now he's 60.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But the. You know, that doesn't help the victim's families. It's just such a hard. It's a hard discussion to have because it's just impossible to get to a period about it completely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And there's such. The losses is so great that it kind of doesn't matter. On the other side, when you start talking about the offender, it's again, it's like all that kind of extraneous, like, well, that's a nice idea. Meanwhile, our loved ones are dead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, maybe we'll say hi to Chloe when we're back in Oakland at the paramount theater on October 2nd and 3rd of this year, 2025 our Lord.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice plug.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I think at the time of this recording, tickets are still available. Okay. We should talk about titles. Obviously, as we bragged, this episode was originally titled Live at the Fox Theater.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. But if we were naming it today based on something that was said during the episode, maybe it would be Pockets. Pockets. Pockets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it was so satisfying how much like the sale response, how much people agree with us and we agree with them that pockets for women's clothes are a necessity.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Worth a standing ovation. Like, that's one of the many things I've learned during this podcast. The one. The biggest surprises of this podcast is that people will cheer a dress with pockets. And that makes me, like, kind of feel okay about the human race, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. I think we are doing okay. And I think them playing along with our let's show off our outfits like we're five years old is like, this is one of the first times we did that and it made it so fun where we're like, oh, yeah, this is just. It's all the gals to together.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Especially when I did a twirl when we were in Texas and showed everyone my underwear on accident.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Remember when you broke the back out of that one dress just for fun? That was my. I think that might be my favorite tour memory of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I thought about that while I was trying on dresses today because there were a couple that were like, this fits quote, but like, there's not a room for a breath, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I think that's when you're on the edge there. Loves that tension.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like you can't sit comfortably. But what's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a live show. Why would you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. No one's comfortable. No, Georgia, the title could be Sounds like Our Government. Oh, it's just. It never stops. Georgia was talking about Lauren Herzog's tattoos during her story and said that line.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That'S always applicable apparently sounds like our government. And of course, Chloe's classic. We could call it Pull a Van Morrison.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, such a good joke.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We must.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So genius. Well, that's a live show. Rewind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you, guys for listening. We'll let the Karen and Georgia from then and there at the Fox Theater say goodbye for us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, really? Stephen offered to drive up from Los Angeles to bring my passport.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my. Okay. I gotta tell you what. Ever since Stephen has been promoted from just like the guy that records our podcast so we don't have to, like, move the dials and stuff, we were like, Steven, you Please help us with these emails. And he's like, okay, I totally will. He's completely organized all of our hometown murder emails, but now he's turned into, like, the super assistant. Where like. Like, what did he say? He was like, what do you mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I text today.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was like, hey, I just want to let you know you're on your way to a hotel, and they have a printer, so if you need to print out your story, it's there. And I'm like, I know how fucking hotels work. Stephen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's doing something. Calling hotels. Yes, I need to speak to the business center, please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you have paper? She likes this kind of grain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't look her in the eye when she goes into the business center.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I actually didn't print it up there, and I was going to send it to them, but it said speed freak killers the name of the document. So I was like, I'm gonna print it at the venue.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just a little paperwork for my job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So. Yes. Hi. To Steven Ray Morris for being an angel, baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stephen Ray Morris.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know who else is the best? Who? The Fox Theater in Oakland, California. Thank you guys so much. Thank you all so much. This is amazing. We love you for coming here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We love you for getting tickets and fucking being. Being a part of our world.

[Georgia Hardstark]

First night of our tour, you are there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

First night. You know what? Stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bye. Good job. Well done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're siblings.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, you fight, you disagree. It's really hard to be in a partnership. Yeah, you judge each other. You lead differently, and we've gotten to that edge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, I'm Simone Boyce, host of the Bright side. And this week, I'm joined by Hollywood power sisters Erin and Sarah Foster. They're getting real about boundaries, rejection, plus, what's next for their hit Netflix series. Nobody wants this. Listen to the bright side on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of, like, butterflies. I'm Danielle Robaix, and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from hello Sunshine and I Heart Podcasts, where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off. Each week, I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk, stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club. Visit Apple Co ReeseAppleBooks to find out more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Betrayal Weekly is back for season two with brand new stories. The detective comes driving up fast and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like screeches right in the parking lot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I swear I'm not crazy, but I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Think he poisoned me. I feel trapped. My breathing changes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I realize, wow, like, he is not a mentor. He's pretty much a monster. But these aren't just stories of destruction. They're stories of survival. I'm gonna tell my story and I'm gonna hold my head up. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.