Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 58: Some Quiet Sunday

Summary

My Favorite Murder: Rewind with Karen & Georgia — Episode 58: Some Quiet Sunday

Podcast: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Episode Date: August 20, 2025
Original Air Date of Ep. 58: March 2, 2017
Theme: A comedic revisit of the classic "Some Quiet Sunday" episode, with updates, personal anecdotes, and a fresh look at two notorious true crime cases plus a wild hometown murder call-in from Kurt Braunohler.

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Episode Overview

Karen and Georgia take a trip down memory lane, revisiting one of MFM’s classic 2017 episodes, “Some Quiet Sunday.” This Rewind edition brings updated commentary, personal reflections, and new insights into notorious crimes discussed episode #58. The duo also highlight ongoing true crime fascinations, their own evolving friendship, and the process of facing life challenges with humor and openness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Opening Banter: The Art of Mundane Disgust

[03:02–08:41]

• Lighthearted Comedy: Karen and Georgia riff about gross household chores—dry heels, hair in shower drains, the horror of removing wet food from sinks, and the passive-aggressive comments by parents (inspiring the episode’s title).
  • Notable Quote:
    “Why don’t you spend some quiet Sunday cleaning behind this toilet?” — Karen, quoting her dad ([09:04])
  • Relatability & Tone Setting: Every episode of MFM, even the most serious, is salted with relatable, self-deprecating humor before the crime talk begins.

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2. Listener and Hometown Murder Anecdotes

[10:34–13:39]

• Georgia recounts meeting a morgue worker and a fan whose grandfather was a serial killer.
• The power of hometown stories: MFM’s charm comes from the blend of true crime with very human, quirky encounters.
  • Notable Quote:
    “This girl came up to me and was like, ‘HI. I really like the podcast. This is weird, my grandfather is a serial killer.’” — Georgia ([11:49])

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3. Crime Podcast & TV Recommendations

[14:29–17:36]

• Georgia recommends “In the Dark,” about Jacob Wetterling, praising its exploration of police failings and journalism.
• Karen endorses “Vanity Fair Confidential,” focusing on satanic panic and the fragility of forensic interviewing.
  • Notable Quote:
    “It is fucking enthralling. One of the best...investigative journo-dick, podcasty things I’ve ever listened to.” — Georgia ([14:40])
  • Observations on how true crime media has evolved, especially with women hosts.

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4. Urban Legends & Safety Myths

[17:38–19:32]

• The infamous "windshield wiper shirt trick”—an urban legend spread on social media as a warning against abduction.
  • Notable Quote:
    “Basically—if you can drive with a shirt on your windshield wiper, get the fuck out of there.” — Karen ([18:50])

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5. Tour Life, Family, and Murder-Inspired Baked Goods

[19:44–24:34]

• Post-Oakland tour memories, gifts from fans (custom totes, Barb notebooks, murder-themed macarons and cookies), and the surreal realization of having supportive audiences—and families adjusting to what they really do for a living.
  • Notable, humorous detours about Ted Bundy cookies and not idolizing, but confronting, dark fascination.
  • Notable Quote:
    “It’s not about Ted Bundy. It’s the fascination of the story.” — Georgia ([23:22])

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6. Case #1: The Erickson Twins

Presented by Karen from [28:01–65:30]

• Story Summary:
  In 2008, Swedish twin sisters Ursula and Sabina Eriksson experience a bizarre shared psychosis ("folie à deux") leading to inexplicable public violence, highway mayhem, and murder.

  • The twins’ paranoid behavior escalates on a UK highway: they run into traffic, are struck by cars multiple times (captured by a reality TV crew), survive, and display superhuman strength and delusions.
  • Sabina, released without a proper psych evaluation, kills a Good Samaritan the very next day.
  • No explanation, drugs, or rational motive is ever uncovered.

• Key Insights:

  • A rare case of shared psychosis, with both legal and mental health systems unable to find satisfactory answers.
  • Reflection on the danger and unpredictability of untreated severe mental illness.
  • Media and public fascination fueled by the bizarre, near-supernatural aspects and lack of closure.

• Notable Quotes:

  • “She starts going, ‘I know who you are. I know you’re not real.’” — Karen ([44:12])
  • “What was the world that they were in? ...I would be so fascinated to know what they thought was happening.” — Karen ([59:39])
  • “Is it real? The connection that they had that made them do this? They’re both crazy.” — Georgia ([61:26])

• Update:

  • Sabina was released on parole in 2011 and whereabouts are unknown; Ursula reportedly moved to Washington State. The case remains unsolved and open to speculation ([64:49]).

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7. Case #2: Mel Ignatow and Brenda Schaeffer

Presented by Georgia from [68:52–88:28]

• Story Summary:
  In Louisville, KY (1988), Mel Ignatow, a seemingly ordinary divorced father, tortures and kills his ex-fiancée Brenda Schaeffer with the help of his ex-girlfriend, Marianne.

  • Marianne turns state’s evidence, showing police where Brenda was buried and testifying (while undermining her own credibility).
  • Thanks to a poorly interpreted audio tape and jury bias, Ignatow is acquitted of murder (“double jeopardy”).
  • Later, hidden photos of the crime are found in a house vent, but Ignatow can’t be retried.
  • Ignatow serves short sentences for perjury, dies in 2008 in a freak accident. Marianne serves a short sentence, dies young as well.

• Key Insights:

  • The horrors of double jeopardy and loopholes preventing justice.
  • A classic example of prosecutorial and law enforcement frustrations—how missed evidence and unreliable witnesses can undermine an airtight case.

• Notable Quotes:

  • “Guess what? Ever heard of double jeopardy? Here it is to ruin your night.” — Georgia ([81:14])
  • “I don’t understand—why doesn’t he just break up with her? Why does he have to kill her?” — Karen ([84:23])

• Update:

  • The case is often discussed in true crime analysis about double jeopardy, including a 2024 “48 Hours” episode ([88:07]).

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8. Hometown Murder: Kurt Braunohler’s Catholic School Latin Teacher Gone Wrong

[88:25–92:38]

• Kurt Braunohler, comedy writer and host of “Bananas,” calls in to recount a disturbing story:

  • His Catholic school’s strange history of Latin teachers culminates with one teacher, after succumbing to drug use, murdering his crack partner Ms. Weed in a devout New Jersey town.

• Touches on the unsettling reality of how communities can harbor darkness beneath normalcy.

• Notable Quote:
  “He murders her with a knife. He stabs her nine times in the neck. And then he just walked out down the street to Ocean Grove...just bloody, having murdered this woman.” — Kurt Braunohler ([91:31])

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9. Personal Reflections & Revisiting “Something Good”

[93:24–97:56]

• Karen and Georgia share life updates from the 2017 episode and how personal struggles and triumphs (financial panic, therapy breakthroughs, the value of trying new therapists) parallel the unpredictable nature of their true crime interests.

  • The importance of friendship, community, and vulnerability in hardship.
  • Foreshadowing future episodes touching on mental health struggles and loss.

• Notable Quotes:

  • “If you’re in a place where you are fucked financially and you’re worried and scared—it will end, and I swear to God, I’ve been in this place before.” — Karen ([94:25])
  • “After going to therapy since I was a child, I had the most amazing session today, I think, ever. She said to me, ‘I know you’re an atheist, but you worship at the altar of doubt.’” — Georgia ([95:54])

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Notable, Memorable, and Humorous Moments

• The recurring comedic trope of poking fun at themselves (“We record for two hours. How many mistakes can we make?” [100:17])
• Karen’s dad’s snarky cleaning advice: “Why don’t you spend some quiet Sunday cleaning behind this toilet?” ([09:12])
• Fish and Chips: Brainstorming a British cop show starring “Andy Fish” ([39:14])
• Macarons and Ted Bundy cookies at live shows—grappling with the true crime community’s peculiar intersection of darkness and playfulness ([22:30])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:31] – Rewind intro and context
• [28:01–65:30] – The Eriksson Twins story (Karen)
• [68:52–88:28] – The Mel Ignatow/Brenda Schaeffer story (Georgia)
• [88:25–92:38] – Kurt Braunohler’s hometown murder call
• [93:24–97:56] – “Something good” segment and personal reflections

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Closing Thoughts and Episode Titles

• Reflection on the difficulty and importance of discussing unresolved or unsolvable true crime mysteries.
• Alternate hypothetical episode titles brainstormed: “Andy Fish” (the faux-cop show), “Undermounded” (an accidental new word), and “Some Quiet Sunday.”

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Final Signature & Listener Tagline

• Catchphrase:
  “Stay sexy and don’t get murdered.”
• Elvis the cat cameo: Elvis is promised a cookie for being a good (and appropriately spooky) podcast mascot.

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For fans and newcomers alike, this episode encapsulates everything that makes MFM unique: dark subject matter, sharp wit, personal openness, and community connection—delivered with compassion, curiosity, and zero pretensions.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Guest or Caller (e.g., Kurt Braunler)]

Not true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's so many things not true. You gotta believe me. I'm Charli Webster and this is Unic Unicorn Girl, an Apple original podcast produced by Seven Hills. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is that Wednesday show where we recap our old episodes with all new commentary, updates and insights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So today we're recapping episode 58, which we named Some Quiet Sunday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode came out on March 2, 2017.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's get into it and listen to the intro.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Welcome to My Favorite Murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi. Welcome to My Favorite Murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello. Welcome to My Favorite Murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello? Gotta learn how to start this thing someday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What was wrong with that really creepy, unnatural speaking voice? It was too light. It was kind of like when someone says they'll scratch your back, but then they kind of just lightly drag their hand across your back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, don't touch it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What is worse than that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what's worse than that is when those blankets that. When your heel. It's like your heel's a little dry and it rubs across those, like, woolly blankets or, like, gets caught on a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cuticle like you're a fucking goat. Like. Like, you're so not. You're so disgusting. That, like, blankets are like, here's how.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Long it's been since you've fucking taken care of yourself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, Ms. Havisham, why don't you fucking soak these feet?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that also.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what's worse?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

When a guy puts his head on your shoulder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, why? Are you serious?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't you. Isn't that the grossest thing of all time?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't understand that one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. I just hate it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow, that was so amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I really thought you were gonna be with me on that one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't, But I don't. No. I don't get it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. It's like, to be cute or something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Where it's like, can you not be precious?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, a guy doing that is like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, you. Cause you also like a masculine dude who takes care of you. And a guy who fucking puts his head on your stupid shoulder is like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's just a little. Like, they might as well also kick their outside leg up when they kiss.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And, like, pull their skirt out a little bit. What the hell?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm fine with that. But, you know, it's even grosser when you don't have a garbage disposal and you have to take the food out of the fucking. The wet food out of the drain of the sink.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How dare you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's how it feels to be abandoned.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it just made me, like, wait.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you have to do that by hand and then throw it in the garbage?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, and it makes me sick to my stomach.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How old is the food? Days? Weeks?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's just like, you just did the dishes. Okay, but you don't food from your mouth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're not a soaker, though, because I'll go ahead and I'll soak some dishes for a good two weeks. Do you ever do that where you're Like, I'm cleaning them by letting them sit in the sink with soapy water in them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I'll put some cold water in a bowl of, like, yogurt, and that's never gonna work. It's always yogurt or, like, cereal. And it's like it's still gonna get stuck to the bowl every time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, the thing that we yell in my house is put water in it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like nobody. Nobody knows we'd live in that house. I lived there for 16 years, and the dishwasher never worked a single day, but I live there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where? In the. Not the other apartment in the house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I grew up in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you always had to do everything by hand.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so when people would almost willfully, ignorantly leave a bowl of cereal in the sink.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Knowing full well it was just going to then be cemented onto the side of that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And you'd get yelled at and have to do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then you'd have to take your fucking hand and take all the wet food out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, you have a garbage disposal now, don't you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now I do. Yeah. Like, that's. Yeah, now I do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now you must run that thing all day long.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love it. Just for no reason on all day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just creating kind of a nice white noise in the background.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So comforting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what I hate?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tell me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is when you're, like, taking a shower and you're just like, oh, it's so great to get clean, and you look down, there's like straight up black mold in your shower or something. Like, where you. The thing of, like, you don't notice how filthy you are until you look at one thing, and then you're like, oh, my God. That's not like, grout. That's not black grout. The grout is white.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If someone else saw this, who was a clean person.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, right now in my shower. I hope you didn't see that when you just peed. Is that like, there's leg shavings everywhere? Cause I just now, like, this is the first time I've had a white shower. Cause our last one was, like, gray and pink. Like vintage gray and pink. And you can't see that shit on gray.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But now it's all white and it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now you have to look at your own body.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Leg shavings offerings. I wonder if Vince notices this too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, he must be into it. My sister, when she came down, because she is a super clean type A type person, and I am not. My Sister got crazy bummed because I have the drain in my bathtub where.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your hair gets caught in it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It gets caught. There's no secondary screen I'm be able to find. Cause it's just. There isn't one. So it's always backing up. And my sister was so bummed at the AM because it was like, no, I get it. Yeah. And then I was just like, standing water. You're right, that is gross. But I've never noticed. It's just how it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like standing water.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Standing water.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't like that either. Well, then it is gross. It's gross. And then the leg shavings are like getting attached to your ankles.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. And also they stay when the rest of it drains because it drains so slow. Then it creates its own kind of like it looks like a map. Like a topological map of a river basin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look at yourself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look at you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I bring this back around?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

However, it does make your feet nice and soft when they're soaking in the water there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It sure does.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then they won't rub on a blanket and make you feel like shit. Anyways. That's been my favorite murder. Can you imagine someone who's listening for the first time? They're like, what the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're just like, I saw this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I came in here for decapitated head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This was on a murder list. And it certainly is no murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really quick. One time my dad said to me, he came down to visit me and then my like the thing broke in my toilet. He had to go in and fix the stopper or whatever it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I hate that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And while we were standing in there, he goes, hey, why don't you spend some quiet Sunday cleaning behind this toilet?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the level of total disgust that he said it with. I think of it every time I'm in the bathroom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is an extra level of con of being condescending. He couldn't just say, hey, you should clean the back of your toilet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no. It always has to be like a one man show in our family. Why don't you take a quiet spend some quiet Sunday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cleaning behind this toilet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know, dad, because I'm busy going to therapy to get over you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or maybe because I just party.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I'm just life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I like love. I love to be outside where the toilet isn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Because I have friends.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't like the toilet as much as you do, dad. What am I saying now?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because it's not as. Because you know what's important to me, dad? Living my life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Living my life. And if that means having a filthy toilet, so be it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So be it. You know whose problem that isn't? Mine. Mine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Welcome to my favorite murder. It's Murder podcast for murder murder aficionados.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Only murder people run to murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So much murder. That's it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Crime.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God, that. We're all about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Justice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

America.

[Georgia Hardstark]

America. That's Karen Kilgarith.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Georgia Hardstark.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're here to host this show and sometimes we talk about personal stuff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We do. Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know if you've.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was that even personal? That was just like, I don't know. Every day. I met a guy today who works in a morgue. He's gonna work in a morgue and is going to morgue person school.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where we went to lunch today, and I got so excited. I had this incredible therapy appointment that, like, made life sunnier. Then I go to this. To the restaurant that we were gonna meet at. It's Joan's on Third. It's not like we go there every day. It doesn't matter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everybody goes there. It's a great place to eat in Studio City.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, the guy who's ringing me up for my coffee was like, how's your day going? And I'm like, good, thanks. How's yours? And he's like, great. I had a job interview. I'm like, oh, Jesus, fucking guy's talking to me now. I'm like, oh, being polite. Oh, what was it for? And then he was like, oh, at the LA County Morgue? And I was like, what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What the fuck do you think he knew?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ugh, I love that so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He just told, like, he didn't know how I would react. And of course, I grab him by the arm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you really ask across the counter?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God, tell me everything. And he was like, oh, you know, blah, blah, blah, I'm going to school to be a mortuary, a mortician, something like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I was like, that's amazing. You're in the right. LA is gonna be incredible. And he's like, I know the murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In the right place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I said. I said, this is LA is gonna be a great place to do that. He said, I know. The murder count just keeps going up. That's right. She said that. And then I turn around and this girl came up to me and was like, hi. I really like the podcast. This is weird. My grandfather is a Serial killer. No, literally, moments later.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. That's when I walked in. Okay. So I have the bad habit of. My sunglasses are also prescription. So when I come in from outside and my sunglasses are always on my head, which means I can't see, I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Always forget that you can't see anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I can't see well. I can't see past a couple feet in front of me. And it helps me, because walking into a place like that, Jones on Third is very CNBC type of place, Whom's whom. And I always get real insecure, whatever. So I'm like, oh, good. Better that I don't have my glasses on except for reading menus and seeing where Georgia's sitting and all the things that actually involved meeting someone for long.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I saw you, but I was in the middle of this discussion with this girl Anna.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, I didn't realize, like, I wouldn't. I thought you'd be sitting by yourself. So when this kind of one blurry figure waved an arm, I was like, what the hell's going on? That I have to go over here now. And I walk up, and Georgia is in full on, like, kind of don't interrupt us conversation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, what I was saying is don't tell Karen. Don't tell Karen. Don't tell Karen when she walks over. Don't tell Karen. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So wait, you're gonna tell me right now? Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was a fucking serial killer. He's in prison. He was, like, the sheriff in Bakersfield and he was killing sex workers? No, she didn't know till she was older. And then she saw an episode of, like, Forensic Files and was like, that's my grandfather. Like, she always knew he was in prison, but didn't know what the deal is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hold on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was that in, like, the 80s or 90s?

[Georgia Hardstark]

She was, like, 11, I guess, and she looked in her early 20s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she was pretty young.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is so intense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. So I was like, this is Anna. Bye, bye, Anna.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was like, get the. Get out, Anna.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because I can't keep a secret. I'm, like, not good at that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I didn't want to be like, that's so good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Her name is Nice goats on Twitter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice goats.

[Georgia Hardstark]

His name is David Keith Rogers. And she said her grandmother wrote him a letter every single day, called him every Sunday, despite the fact that he was a serial killer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Denial.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Denial.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's some serious denial. She's like, that's not the man I married.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, talk about living a double life. He's the sheriff, and that is a nightmare. That's a true detective season. All of them never. Because it's never gonna happen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I say one other thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That I love?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've been listening to another new podcast that I finished within a couple days, as I do called in the Dark. The Jacob Wetterling one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no, I haven't heard it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I didn't. I was like, jacob Wetterling. Everyone knows what happened with him. He's a kid who got kidnapped, you know, in Minnesota in the 80s, whatever. And so I was like, I'll just listen to an episode. It is fucking enthralling. It is one of the best fucking investigative journalists. Dick. Podcasty things I've ever listened to, I gotta listen to. It's incredible. And it's not about Jacob Wetterling. It's about everything that went wrong in. It's like. It is a fucking hard look at law enforcement.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And how they mishandled the entire fucking case and how it fueled stranger danger and the sex offender registries and is that the right thing to do? And like, it's. And then they just solved the case, like a week before they were gonna put the podcast out. Whoa. So they, like, tie all this shit into it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Oh, I gotta listen to that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Madeline Barron is the host. I love that. It's all these fucking badass women who are hosting these incredible investigative journalism.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So cool. In the dark.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's called in the Dark.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In the Dark. Ugh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking. I could not stop listening to it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ooh, I love that. I actually just thought of this too. Cause I just watched of if nobody. If you're not watching Vanity Fair Confidential, which is a series.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On a place. Which part do you not know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm just trying to think of where it is, but it might be Investigation Discovery or something. It doesn't matter. You can just put it in. But it's. They have. They basically go over stories that have been in Vanity Fair, which is a magazine that's existed for like 70 plus years, maybe longer, does great art, great investigative journalism. Yeah. And the one that I watched yesterday was about this couple, which was basically about satanic panic. And that weird thing that happened in the 80s where all of a sudden it was like, at the McMartin Preschool. Preschool case. And then there was this other one that happened to these people in Austin, Texas, and they just got out of jail and they still haven't been exonerated.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you fucking kidding me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're just. They were just released of like, it's basically what you were Just talking about where back then when they knew nothing about how leading, how much you could screw up an interview with a 4 year old or a 3 year old. How easy it is to get that child to say exactly what you want them to say.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's how all those things exploded. That's why it happened all at the same time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That shit. That is what fucking happens in this podcast. And it is incredible how it's so terrifying. I have to listen to Positive a book now because I'm so fucked up over it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Oh, I gotta listen to that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And Vanity Fair Confidential. What's cool is that they take those articles and they interview like the main narrator interviewer guy is the person. Is the person who wrote that article.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then other then the police that were there and the other family members and stuff, they've been. The last couple that I've watched have been so good. It's just like. It's a really well done series.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I haven't watched it in a while. I'm gonna check it out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cool. Also, did you see the thing someone tweeted at us or it was somewhere like. I think it was on our Facebook about the windshield wiper shirt trick.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you think that's true?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Probably. I mean it could have its sources in some once true thing, but I like the idea that people spread that around me too. Cause I think it's that thing of just like eyes open, eyes open and don't like. So basically what it was is there was a picture. I think it was either on Instagram or Twitter or whatever. But it's like a girl, there's a shirt wrapped around her windshield wiper. And then when she gets out to take it off, there's people there that are like to grab her because she's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Out of her car. Right. You get in your car at night, you're being very careful in the structure. And then, oh shit, there's something on my windshield. I better get out and take it off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then that's like. That's when your guard is down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So it's just the idea and that thing spread like wildfire. Yeah, I saw that in a couple different places.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, really? Yeah, I was like, this sounds. This sounds like, you know, and his hook was in the back of. Was in the car or whatever, the back door. But it is. Yeah, it is a good kind of reminder to pay attention.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. It only takes one thing like that. And also you have to think if you're like you should think of your car as, like, the safe zone. So, like, once you're in there and you've locked that door, you're good to go. So if you can drive with a shirt on your windshield wiper, get the fuck out of there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's what the girl said she did is she fucking knew something was wrong. She saw a car. Car idling, supposedly, you know, and then so she fucking drove away. And when she was alone and safe, she fucking got out and pulled the thing off. She's like, it didn't make sense that it was wrapped around my windshield.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? Yeah, it doesn't, because it's not like, oh, it dropped from. You know, it blew onto my windshield or whatever. If it's wrapped. She was basically taking her context clues and going, this is a red flag situation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Betcha this fictitious character is a murderino. But she is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What else? I mean, what do we do? We have anything to report back from? And I would just say this because we haven't recorded since our tour. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Last episode was our. Where Were We? Our Oakland show. The last episode we. We put on this podcast was the Oakland show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This podcast. This one right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was Live Oakland.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

After Live Oakland, we met a bunch of great people. And the first person we met was a girl who made us some amazing stuff. I don't have her card or anything, but did you see in that bag? I'm not sure if you went through it. So I got a tote bag that said, my dogs are fiercely private.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh. And she got me a bag that had a fucking adorable Siamese cat on it that I'm totally using all the time now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. And also, I think handmade. I don't know if she bought them or if she designed them herself, but I feel like she made them. The Barb notebook. Did you get a Barb notebook?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think that's her drawing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So we just want. We had a fun conversation with you. She was very excited, and we just wanted to say it was just as fun for us to meet you as it was for you to meet us. Because she was very sweet and very excited.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone's been. We're so lucky.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. We get lots of nice presents, and it's funny. And also in Oakland, most of my family was there. My cousin Stevie, who's basically like my older brother, who beat me up my whole childhood and then became a super cool friend, and now is basically like my sister and my sister's family and his family do everything together. And it's really awesome because that's the way we all grew up together. It's like the next generation. I heard the rumor that he was crying during our show because he was so proud and, like, blown away. Like, basically all of my family was like, oh, we had no idea that this is what you were doing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So it was super fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, Marty fucking Hardstark is gonna be at our Beacon, our New York Beacon show this fucking weekend, and I have no idea how he's gonna react.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please, New York, help us impress Marty Hartstark. He needs to understand that his daughter has done a good job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You'll know him by the fact that he's the only grown man alone there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's not true. When we were in Seattle, remember the guy that made us the macarons? Oh, yeah. He, like, had taken Stephen. He had taken a cooking class. He had made macarons that had. They were pink with red blood spatter on them. Put them in a Tupperware and brought them to the show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And we knew they weren't poisonous because a girl in line behind us. Him. Had eaten them. And she was like, they were great. And I'm like, how do you feel? Are you feeling okay? She's like, I'm fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That you're like our tester.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love macarons. And I got Ted Bundy cookies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just said the wrong word.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you see that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Elvis just came out of his little cat house. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause I said the word.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The cookie. He knows. He knows. Holy shit. He's gonna have to get one early.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He is a monster.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We've made a monster. Sod House Bakery in Seattle are the ones that made us. I tweeted those.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're on my favorite murder Instagram, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Unbelievable. Ted Bundy. And I would just like to point out the fact that it turns into a thing where it looks like, oh, we love Ted Bundy in no way. It's like. It's the story we're telling, and it's. Oh, I never thought that. I'm not saying to you. I'm just saying in general, when on the podcast, people are like, it sounds like we're cheering. It's not about Ted Bundy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the fascination of the story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And the crime and the. The fact that that exists and the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Icing and the fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was an amazing cookie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was like a brown sugar cookie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was really good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Beautiful art. And the shape of Washington.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Washington, probably. Cause we were in Seattle it was the shape of Washington. We are the best people. We are the Oregon. Can I talk about how I took a bite out of it to take a photo and, like, make it seem obvious that it was a cookie? And then I said, look, I took a bite out of crime. And then I fucking laughed my ass off at my own fucking stupid joke.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God, it gets lonely in that dressing room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ooh, it's quiet. We don't have groupies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's the place where I put on a record. And it was some lame 80s. Not lame. There were some good songs on it, but there was an 80s compilation. And a stick song came on and it was dead silent. Me and George are, like, looking down at our murders or whatever, like, getting ready. And then she goes, oh, my God, what is this? She's not even a good singer. And I'm still laughing about that. Very enjoyable.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't know sticks. You look like it's your turn to go first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. You looked like you were ready, and I was like, oh, she knows.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, then I'm interpreting from that. You would like me to go first?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I don't care. I don't want to fuck it up. I bet Steven knows.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, we fucked it up going live. Oh, Steven, do you know?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you see him pick up his finger? Like he was trying to shush us?

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was thinking. No, I think it was, like, trying to remember. And I was just like, shush. And you brought the microphone up so perfectly, like I'm about to tell you. Well, I also was like, does it count from the Oakland episode, or do you count the other live episodes in terms of who goes first?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no, then it's me, because I think Oakland. Oakland. So it is me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. All right, whatever. Okay, we're back, and we have the reason why we named the episode Some Quiet Sunday. And it's just classic home gym.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have to say, he's vicious. He's a vicious, vicious man. In many ways, that's a cutting remark.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why don't you spend some quiet Sunday cleaning behind your toilet?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, look, we were all in the bathroom together, and it was filthy, it was gross. And he's basically just saying, have some goddamn self respect.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but the way he's saying it is like, you have the time and you still live like this. It's not like you are the busiest person, you know? It's like it's an accusation while it's a suggestion.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's like it's the patriarchy in action. I'm fucking sick of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll use your toothbrush, dad. How about that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's also the kind of thing where, like, I was raised with a level, that level of sarcasm. You know, people love to say, like, I'm fluent in sarcasm in their bios or whatever. And it's like I was raised with such a vicious level of sarcasm where it's like, he would have said something like that when I was seven years old. That's just the interaction level of home Jim and his family.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's like a dryness. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mm. And also kind of like, hey, the bathroom isn't the cleanest, but behind this toilet is a nightmare.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. How about you get your life together, seven year old Karen, and fucking do something about it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's interesting because it is seven year old Karen that is holding back 55 year old Karen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So ironic that way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're the same person. It's so annoying that thinking takes over because it's who you are still. All right, let's get in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know deep down, oh, we talked a little bit about the windshield wiper trick, which is basically when this, like the human trafficking panic began online on social media. I just think that's kind of an interesting thing to look back on where it's like. Yeah, remember that? Where it's like if you have this on your windshield wiper, but then it's like there's tons of other examples that over the years we've all seen and reacted to. And then it's like after a while it's like it's a bigger problem. If only they gave you that signal also.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But notes or flowers, I've heard too. Have you notes and flowers in your windshield get you to stop, get out of. Especially flowers, get out of your car, you know, stand in a vulnerable place. I just. It does make sense to not do that, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, I mean, don't do it anyway. Don't accept flowers, even if someone's just handing them to you. Kindly slap them out of their hand.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If they want you to listen to their. Their DJ mixtape. Don't do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't buy or borrow their DJ mixtape.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that is abuse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, let's get straight into it, shall we?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're first. Let's listen to Karen's story about the Erickson twins.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, this one.

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean it's the thing that any cat owner knows where it's like you love your cat. They're the best pets. But litter boxes are a real challenge. And it's like Pretty Litter's like, you know what? We're taking care of that challenge for you right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 2 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] MFM Goodbye. Well, this is now, I'm afraid, because I'm 99% positive you haven't done this murder. But truly, as I was printing it up and leaving my house, I was like, this sounds. It's so familiar. And I know that I've done research on it before, thinking I would do it before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I've had to think about looking up murders before, being like, have I done it before? Not just you. Okay, so I think we're.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So you won't be mad if this is a repeat?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Only if you do it better than I did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I'm pretty sure you didn't, but I know we've talked about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. I'm excited.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the reason that I wanted to do it is because I mentioned it the last time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just pick the biggest. Wendy. Sorry. Like, in your face.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No problem. The last, I think the last studio recording that we did, when I talked about the Papin Sisters, the French music.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Video, I was in my apartment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. This podcasting studio. So it's another case of Falia do, which is the shared psychosis and it's the story of Ursula and Sabina Erickson.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have not done it. We've talked about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking am excited about this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What a huge goddamn relief. Because I was truly like. I was like, I'm printing it. I don't. This is what I've done. Like, I can't go back from here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What if that's like my trigger and then I'm like this is over. I can't believe you don't remember. I was. I cried that episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it meant a lot to me too. Anyway, all right, okay.

[Guest or Caller (e.g., Kurt Braunler)]

So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In that. Sorry if you didn't hear that episode. So a folie au dieu is in French it translates as the madness of two. And it's a form of shared psychosis between two people who are extremely close. The Papin sisters were an older and younger sister. It is rumored that they were having a sexual relationship. But they did work for a rumored to be very strict mistress who they killed so violently that it beats most of the crimes we talk about modern day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It really. It doesn't fit with what. You know what I mean? Crime not matching the punishment and all this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. It's such extreme overkill that it's not so bizarre.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this is a little bit different, but this, I feel like is the much more famous version of this shared psychosis. And it is Ursula and Sabina Erikson. So In May of 2008, two Swedish sisters who live in Ireland who are in their late 30s named Ursula and Sabina Erikson. Twin sisters. That should be in there. They are twin sisters and they live in County Cork. And they've traveled to. They're traveling to London, but they've taken. They're in Liverpool when this all goes down. Taking the bus into London or they're right outside Liverpool, I guess. So when they first arrive in Liverpool or wherever they are nearby it. The first thing they do is they walk into the St. Ann Street Police station and quote unquote, report concerns about Sabine's children. So from the get go of their like trip to London, there's shit going on. They immediately go and start talking to the police. Nothing comes of it. Then they get on this bus, the National Express coach into London. After a little while on the bus, they tell the driver they don't feel well. He pulls over to the roadside services and they get off the bus. When they try to get back on the bus, they are clutching these bags that they have with them in a way that makes the driver suspicious. So he says, we need to look in your bags before you get back on the bus. And they're like, no fucking way. And they're so weird about not letting anybody look into their bags that the bus driver kicks them off the bus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good for him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Leaves them there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking hero. Oh wait, that's kind of shitty. Don't leave women on the side of the road.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, but I mean like, so the second I hear this, I'M like, what is in those bags?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I need to know what's in those bags immediately.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yes. I'm imagining lots.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right, so the gas station manager, where they have stopped at these. What they call services in England, is informed by this bus driver. These two are acting weird and shady, and so I'm not letting them back on the bus. So that gas station manager calls the police, they come and talk to Ursula and Sabine, decide they're harmless and leave. So now Ursula and Sabine are stranded by the M6, which is a freeway in England, and not the TV show MI6, which I thought I was thinking of the whole time I first started researching this. Have you ever watched MI6 with Matthew McFadden? Who is Mr. Darcy? Richard Armitage. Anyway, none of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good stuff, good stuff. Good British procedural.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good talk.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But there's an M6 and then there's an MI6. They're not the same thing, Karen. Okay, so they're stranded, and the next thing that they know is that there's CCTV footage of them walking down the central part of the freeway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like the. So they have run across the center median.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, they've run across the freeway. So you can see. Here's the insane part of all this. There is video footage of this entire incident.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't like. I've seen it. And it's like whenever there's CCTV footage, I'm like, don't wanna watch this. Something awful's gonna happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, that's bad, too. But there was also basically a British version of Cops, which was called Motorway. No, Y. Yes, Motorway Cops, which was a reality show that they were filming when this happened. So the entire thing is caught on an ENG crew footage. Footage, yes. Like a TV show. That's why there's so much, like. You can see all of it that seems illegal. It's super crazy. Yeah, because. Did they sign waivers?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There must be. Because they broke the law. They must have to. Or something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So basically, here's what. Or maybe they have different rules here of production. All right, here's what happened. They're in the central median and they run to cross it again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't cross the fucking freeway.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ursula gets across, but Sabina gets hit by a car.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they call the Highway Agency traffic officers, which I imagine is like the Highway Patrol.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I don't know and I didn't look it up. I wrote this horrible thing. So when Highway Agency traffic officers, what I can only imagine are the British Highway Patrol. So British Chips, which in America are crisps, but in England are French fries.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's. I love where you went with that. That was expected.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So dumb.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, like, Fish and Chips. What if, like, Fish and What if there was, like, a cop show that the cops were British and there was a guy named, like, Andy Fish, and so it's like Fish and Chips. Can someone please make a fucking. We'll be the Chips. So Karen and I. Andy Fish is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A British detective that's come to Los Angeles and then he needs the help.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of two girl podcasters.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Chips. Where are the chips, though?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, because we're British cops.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, because we. Oh, no, no. We're Chips. We're Highway Patrol.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're Chips. Yeah, we're highway patrol.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fish could be the band Fish. Fish. The band Fish. Fish and Chips leads cops. Like they're undercover narcs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they go to their shows.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They narc on people at their own shows. Yes. They're pot cops.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Guys, here's the thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So basically, the British Highway Patrol shows up with this British reality show called Motorway Cops.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're already recording it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so shitty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no. They didn't know what the scenario was. They showed up on the scene like, well, this is a day in the life of these cops.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's like that. Okay, so. So as they. So the two twin women are standing on the side of the road talking to these cops. And the guys that were there first on the scene first are explaining to the British police who showed up with the camera crew. They're like, okay, so here's what happened. I guess they ran across the freeway. We don't really know what they're doing. One of them got hit, but she's okay, and blah, blah, blah. And they're explaining everything. And the two women are standing there while the cops are talking to each other. And then as the camera's rolling, Ursula bolts out into the freeway and immediately gets hit by a truck. And it is on. The truck is going 56 miles an hour. It's on camera. There's somebody that's kind of blocking it so you don't see the real. But.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And to make it clear, she's not running, trying to cross. She's running to get hit by a car.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, there's no. It's just like that fucked up part in Bowfinger where Eddie Murphy has to run across the freeway for the special effect. Do you remember that? You don't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, here's the thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not like Frogger, where it's like one coming every couple of seconds. It's like running onto the five right now. Like, there's no pause in the traffic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. So she ran out onto a busy freeway intentionally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she does it. And everybody's like. It's really upsetting because it's all the cops going like, oh, my God. Or whatever. And they're immediately onto their things, calling for an ambulance, doing this. And while they're doing that. And one of them runs out to stop traffic, whatever. While they do that. Then Sabine runs out into the freeway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck, dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because they're so. It's the craziest thing to see because nobody. Of course, once the one goes. Nobody goes, oh, make sure the other one doesn't go. They all go, holy shit. Call an ambulance.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You would never. Yeah. Who would do that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Ursula's legs. So Sabine runs out on freeway and immediately gets hit by a Volkswagen Polo, which we don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There are people driving those fucking cars.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You've ruined their lives. I mean, I'm so the lorry driver.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The truck driver that hit Ursula is on this. You can see the video footage. And it's the saddest thing. Cause he just keeps going. She just threw out in front of us. That's not the accent, but it's something like that where he says us instead of me. It's rough. And he's just like, kind of staring off, like in total shock.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But here's the thing. So Ursula's legs. She has compound fractures in her legs. The cop I saw special on it, and it's called, like, madness on the Motorway or something like that, but it's really good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's not as good as fish and chips.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is. No fish and chips. Never.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Never.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She is down. And this is so upsetting because bones are sticking out of her legs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Uh, no, no, no, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You're not gonna get hit by a truck on the freeway and have it not be really gross and upsetting. But meanwhile, she's down, right? So the bottom half of her body is not moving. And it's fucked up badly. But the top half of her, they go. And they put one of those tinfoil marathon blankets on her. And they're, like, trying to talk to her. It's basically like, the ambulance is gonna be here. You're okay. And she starts going, I know who you are. I know who you are. And they're like, just take it easy. It's okay. Oh, my God. She says, I recognize you. I know you're not real. Oh, my God. And the police are just saying, it's okay. Stay down. She's trying to get up. So it looks like a really hideous part of Walking Dead where the zombie's been attacked from the back, but they're still dragging themselves. She's trying to push herself up, but her legs aren't going to move. And she's trying to fight him. She's spitting at him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How scary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she's freaking out. So her sister is. So that's Ursula. Sabina is also on the ground. And she looks like she's out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And there's a female cop next to her. And I think the second person is a woman who was maybe a passerby in a car. I'm not sure. But they're both sitting there, and they're like. She's got one of those tinfoil blankets on her, and. And Sabine is just eyes closed out. And then she comes to, and she, like, almost, like, immediately gets up, and they're like, no, no, no. Don't move. Don't move. And she's clearly, like, dazed, but she starts saying, they're gonna steal your organs. She's yelling that over to Ursula.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy balls.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're gonna steal your organs. And then she. They're like, no, no, no. Stay down. And they're trying to hold her down, and she starts yelling, help. Call the police. And they're like, we are the police. It's okay. And so then they're thinking they're on drugs. They must be on some kind of drug, because now Sabine is up on her feet and she's trying to, like. She's, like, trying to get away. And they're like, you need to calm down. It's okay. She fucking jumps the rail and runs into the other. On the other side of the freeway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You fucking king. Kidding me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Swear to God, they thank God that wasn't as busy on that side. And I think they may have stopped traffic. Like, traffic was totally stopped on this side where Ursula was laying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Probably Looky Lou's slowing down and shit. Probably.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And, like, maybe less traffic, I'm not sure. But anyway, she runs across. This cop has to run after her. And he's like, stop. What are you doing? Don't you know you're hurt? You're hurt. And she's like. And she basically turns turns on him. Like, she's gonna fit. Oh, my God. And she's like. And she's screaming, help. Call the police. And they're like, we are the police, like, it's crazy. So they. So basically, it eventually takes six policemen to subdue Sabine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Six policemen to finally get her down and sedate, like they shoot her up. They meanwhile airlift Ursula out to the hospital. She was spitting at them the whole. Like they were fighting the entire time. And the cops that subdued Sabine said that she had superhuman strength. That both of them did. So they're thinking they're probably on PCP or something. Like, you know, the drugs associated with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That were taught as a kid. Or like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, you could like lift a car, do whatever you want.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which I just. The idea of whatever world that they were in where they thought what was. What was happening. Cause they still don't know to this day the logic behind. And there's no explanation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait, I was hoping you'd get to the explanation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I'm just gonna spoiler alert for you right now. No, they have never explained it in court. When she finally went to court, all she would say is no comment. They have never explained any of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And there was no drugs in their system.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, okay, she gets. They finally, they finally, the six people get her down, sedate her. She goes to the hospital and then goes directly into police custody in a place called Stoke on Trent. So on May 19, 2008, she is released from court. Sabina is released from court without a full psychiatric evaluation, having pleaded guilty to trespass on the motorway and hitting a police officer, which she decked that female police officer. She punched her right in the face to get away from her. That's before she ran across for the third fucking time. So the court sentenced her to one day in custody, which she'd already served. So she leaves and she begins to wander the streets of Stoke on Kent, trying to find her sister in the hospital and carrying her possessions in a clear plastic bag. So she's just kind of now out on the street.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let her go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, so she's. That night, two local guys who are walking a dog see her. And she comes up and is very friendly. She's petting the dog, they're all talking. One of the men is a 54 year old man named Glenn Hollingshead, who is a self employed welder. He had been a paramedic and he was a former RAF worker. The other man was his friend, Peter Malloy. And so they all start talking. And even though she's friendly, Sabina's acting super weird. So she does stuff like offers. She's asking them if they know any. The directions for any good bed and breakfasts or any place to stay. She offers them cigarettes and then takes them back while they're smoking them. So this guy, Glenn Hollingshead, can tell there's something wrong with her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the part I. This is the part that I'm like, did we do this one?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did we, Steven? Well, this is the murder part.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So we must have talked about this before.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sure we've talked about it, but I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't think we have.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That'd be a bummer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, who cares? You're doing a great job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, thanks. Thank you. I appreciate it. So they go back to his house. Cause he's like, something's wrong with this lady. And she's just wandering out on the street. So they go back to his house, and she's basically saying, I need to find my sister. She's in the hospital. So they start. I think they said they hang out that night. She was carrying multiple mobile phones and a laptop. She was constantly looking out the window. She was super paranoid. And Maloy assumed, the friend assumes that she's run away from an abusive partner the way she's acting. So they're like, you can stay here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she's probably all bandaged up and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shit right after being released. But I don't think when she was up and basically trying to duke it out with this cop, she looked fine. Having been hit by a car two times. She seemed fine and didn't break any bones, apparently because she wasn't held at the hospital. So, okay. So anyway, when the friend leaves, he leaves shortly before midnight. And Sabina stays at the house. So the next morning, Hollingshead is calling local hospitals to find Ursula to see where she is. And at, let's see, this would be 7:40 in the morning, he goes outside to ask his neighbor for tea bags. And the neighbor says, let me finish up what I'm doing and I'll come and bring him over. And so Glen walks back into the house and, oh. Cause he's washing his. The neighbor's washing his car. So he's like, when I finish, I'll bring him over. And then a minute after going inside, he staggers back outside the house and saying to the neighbor, she stabbed me. And then collapses on the ground. When he had gone back into the house, Sabina had stabbed him five times with a kitchen knife. And he died from his injuries there. And she ran. And the neighbor calls 999, which is 911 and England. Not that I had to tell you that. Does this seem familiar?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I don't think we've done this one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Because it seems familiar to me. But I know I've watched a full movie about this on YouTube and we all can if you want to, after this. So essentially she goes out of this house with a hammer in her hand and is hitting herself in the head with the hammer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh. So every once in a while, periodically, it says from Wikipedia. So a passing motorist sees this, gets out of the car and tries to grab the hammer away from her. And while they're wrestling, Sabina pulls a roof tile out of her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The fuck out of her pocket.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What the. You know when you're wandering around town.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like this looks and you just put.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Some stuff in your pocket. She pulls it out and hits him in the head with it. He's momentarily stunned and she runs away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But at this point, the paramedics from the 999 call have shown up and they see her and they chase her and they end up pursuing her to Heron Cross where she jumps off a 40 foot bridge onto the A50 which is another freeway or highway. I mean they love it. They love freeways and highways. So in that fall, she does break bones. So she is not superhuman. And she's taken to the hospital. And then when she's recovering there, she is put under arrest and she's later discharged and then charged with murder. And so she goes to trial, they hold her. And this is the part that drives me crazy. She was supposed to go. She's charged with murder In September of 2008, the day she's discharged from the hospital. And the trial is scheduled for February of 2009. But they can't find her medical records from Sweden. So the trial is then pushed to September of 2009. So basically both of these sisters are kind of these mysteries. They can't find anything about them. They can't figure out what the deal is on them, which I think is so fascinating. Obviously there's mental illness taking place anyway. There's something really serious going on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Reality somehow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So she pleads guilty to manslaughter with diminished responsibility. But at no point during her interrogation or during the trial does she explain her actions. She only says no comment to extensive police questioning. Jesus. Both the prosecution and defense say that she was insane at the time of the killing, but sane during her trial. And the defense counsel claims that Sabine is the secondary sufferer of Folie Adu and that Ursula was the primary, basically the alpha in the situation. Which is easy to say now that she's off with her crushed legs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it doesn't diminish your responsibility for what you've done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, because Ursula had nothing to do with that stabbing. She wasn't there for it. So it's kind of like it's trying to say, well, she's the one that's just going along with everything. It's like, yeah, but Ursula wasn't there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To tell her to do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And obviously, way more is going on. If that was her behavior when she was by herself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. I want to know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I want to know all of it. Anyway, she's sentenced to five years in prison.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Five years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She'd already spent 439 days in custody, so she ended up being eligible for a release in 2011. So the judge says that she has a low level of culpability for her actions, but basically that the killing was based on mental illness. She thought she was in danger. They thought they were in danger the whole time. They didn't know where they were when they were on the freeway, when all that stuff was taking place. They clearly had a break from reality and had some kind of a psychotic break because they were yelling at the police, call the police. And the police were repeatedly yelling back to them, we are the police, clearly. And that just wasn't. Didn't seem to be breaking through in any way. And so I don't think there's no explanation, but it didn't seem like that changed in any significant way by the time Glenn Hollings had brought her into his apartment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Poor guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, she was like, that's that kind of thing, though, of like, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? This is not a healthy person or an okay person. I mean, he was trying to be a good guy is what he was doing, but there's a lot of danger in that of, like, just taking in a mentally ill person from the street is a dangerous thing. Even if it's a woman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. What was I gonna ask? So did they get out? Are she out?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, she was paroled, and we don't know. Hold on. Yeah. Yep, she got out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where is she now?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm scared. I'm scared now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the brother of Glenn Holling's head, the guy that got stabbed Holland's head, basically said that he doesn't blame her because he clearly understands that she was her mental state. She probably thought that was something she needed to do. But he blames that system that just released her into the street with a plastic bag going like, well, good luck. You clearly ran across the freeway three times, but now you're just on your own.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Without the person you've been with. So it's like, we don't know if you. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So here's the thing that I wanna know, and let's just put aside. So. Because there weren't drugs in their system. So all those. All their theories of, like, they're on PCP or this, none of that proved out. And I think the reason. It's vague here. And hopefully there's other people that know the details, and we would love to hear them. I would love to hear them. But, like, the idea that they're not on drugs, clearly there's some kind of a psychosis taking place, but not so much that they then get put into any kind of. Like that Sabine gets put into any kind of a mental hospital.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It should have been. What is it, 5150, when they can hold you for being crazy for somebody?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And, like, what more do you need than people running across the freeway three times?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you're not hurt. Get out of here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. It doesn't. It's very strange. It doesn't make a ton of sense, but for me, I want to know. So one of the things they said they were carrying were a whole bunch of cell phones in those bags that they didn't want people to see. But the idea that they thought people wanted to take their organs. Like, they thought they were being chased. They thought they needed a bunch of cell phones. They couldn't show them to people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They like that idea. It's like a, you know, paranoid delusion or whatever. But, like, what did they. What was the world that they were in? I would just be so fascinated to know the details of what they thought was happening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's one of those, like, mysteries of, like, you know, like, Tam and Shud, that guy, you know, that I. It's like, will we ever know? I really want to know. Maybe the answer someday will be, like, the us. The girls. The. The girls in Austin who got killed at the yogurt shop. Yogurt shop murders. Like, I want to know so bad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We might never know, which is so frustrating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like. I feel like I should have done, like, more backend research. But for me, the fascinating part is that, I mean, the stabbing is an insane, like, ending and so terrible and so incredibly tragic. But, like, what was happening on that freeway is so crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that, to me, I got all caught up in that and the video. I mean, watching that video was just like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You watched it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I did. Because it's like, it was the whole story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I understand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's crazy, though. It doesn't. It's like your mind can't comprehend it because it's a person running into traffic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I can't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really, really crazy. I want to know also if Ursula, being separate from. If. Because they were separated, if anybody, like, snapped out of it and then was like, oh, this is. We were. We were.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean. But you can't blame it on that. You can't. Like, it's not real. The fucking. Like, the connection that they had that made them do this. You know what I mean? Like, they're just both crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. But it's real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry. They're both mentally ill. Yes, but separately, they're mentally ill. It's not like one is causing the other one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Although that's kind of like the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What they say happens.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Because the other. The Gibbon sisters, who were those twins who lived in Wales, and they grew up. They were, like, some of the only black people in Wales. So they grew up and they were terribly bullied and abused. So they didn't talk to anybody but each other, and they had a secret language. So this is basically. It's the same thing. They had a thing where when they were in jail, because they started lighting fires, so they went to jail, they went to a mental hospital because they didn't talk to anybody and they only talked to each other. But they would do a thing where they would find one standing frozen in a certain pose in her cell, and they would go to the other cell on the other side of the jail, and she would be standing in the exact same pose.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there is something to, like, the mental connection of twins. I know there's something there. Because, like, how did that happen?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Unless it was like, oh, every day we do this thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. At this time, maybe. I don't know. Or is that, you know, someone exaggerating at the mental hospital told someone that. And that got a little bigger and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bigger and bigger, like it's its own creepypasta.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, well, because.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But every reporter. There was a reporter that went and spent time with them who said they were just incredibly eerie. You know, it's like two people that don't feel the need to talk, who would just sit there that also are, like, you know, twins. And one of them finally said to that reporter, the only way I'm getting Out of here is if one of us dies and then one did die of an expanded heart or something, like, kind of for no reason. Like, in a way where it's just one died and then the other got.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Out and she lived a normal life. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or at least she's got out and living her life outside of mental hospital.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you could be a twin, would you be a twin? Ooh, I just want to be. When I was a kid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wanted to be when I was a kid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I think it would be fun. I thought it would be hard to, like, look at yourself all the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Part of me was just like, I kind of want to know what I look like objectively. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And do you ever, like, look at photos and be like, okay, if I saw that girl, what would I think? I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, the funny thing to me is that I can take such insanely bad pictures and I can take really good pictures, and then it's like, well, what is the. I guess it's just a happy medium. And that's how it is with everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so weird that. Yeah. Am I gonna get. Yeah. Everything. What if you and I start fucking. What is it called?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Morphing into each other?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Follying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Folly. A doing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do that on the road.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That'd be kind of fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It'd be fun. It'd be fun to just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, run and just get your.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like, you make my decisions for me. Please. I'm done making decisions.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. My decision is to pull someone's eyes out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry. Sorry. My decision is to run into the freeway. All right. Okay, we're back. And that was a classic one that you covered. I remember that one. I always have. Any updates?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of course not. No updates, no answers. No one's ever going to tell us what the fuck was going on. But I will say. Sabina Erickson was released on parole in 2011. She reportedly returned to Sweden. Her current whereabouts remain unknown. Her sister Ursula recovered from her injuries and moved to Washington State, where she continues to live. The case still fascinates true crime audiences. Women in Crime covered the Sisters in 2024 and a podcast called Necronomopod in 2025. So, people, I mean, this is the kind of like, listen to this. This really happened. Yeah, but I think it's the reason it's like, that is because it just is. Like, no one can explain it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, totally. It's. It's a fascinating mystery.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, well, since we have no answers, for you. And apparently you don't have them for us either, because we would have heard by now. We're just going to go into Georgia's story about Mel Ignatow.

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, my psychiatrist and therapist work in tandem to make sure that I am living my best life and it just like I couldn't have one without the other, you know. And as a listener of this podcast, you'll get 80 off of your first month with Talkspace. When you go to talkspace.com mfm and enter promo code space80.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Candice Rivera has it all. In just three years, she went from stay at home mom to traveling the world, saving lives and making millions. Anyone would think Candace's charmed life is about as real as unicorns. But sometimes the truth is even harder to believe than the lies.

[Guest or Caller (e.g., Kurt Braunler)]

Not true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's so many things not true. You gotta believe me. I'm Charlie Webster and this is Unicorn Girl, an Apple original podcast produced by Seven Hills. Follow and listen on Apple podcasts. I love when I like think of a murder. Like when I'm like, what murder should I do? And then I'm like, oh yeah, I've fucking been fascinated by this one for years. I'm gonna do it. You know when it's like not one you just randomly find.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Mel ignato is a 50 year old man. He's a divorced father of three grown kids. And Brenda Sue Schaeffer is 36, she's a medical assistant. And they had been in a relationship for two years and engaged. And then in 1988, Schaeffer decides to break it off. And she tells a friend that Mel was sexually abusive. And by all accounts, everyone says he's controlling and he's a sadistic motherfucker is what I wrote. So Brenda goes missing after deciding to break it off with Mel. And her car is found on the highway real close to her home. Close enough that if it had broken down, she could have walked home. It had been broken into the radio, stolen. And family and police, though, quickly suspect Mel in the disappearance. But they're unable to locate any witnesses or physical evidence linking him. And they can't find Brenda her body. So they interview him to clear his name so he can clear his name by testifying before a grand jury. And randomly he mentions the name of his ex girlfriend of 10 years, Marianne Shore, which randomly brings her into the investigation for the first time. They hadn't even known it. Like she wasn't on the radar at all. So the police interview Marianne and eventually she confesses to helping plan the murder of Brenda. And of course, out of that, she gets a plea bargain that she'll only get charged with tampering with evidence. So Marianne tells police that Mel had convinced her to help him plan and carry out Brenda's murder. They had spent several weeks making extensive Preparations for Brenda's murder, including, quote, scream testing Marianne's house and digging a grave in the woods behind her house. Mel even keeps a checklist of the things he was going to do to Brenda on the night he killed her. And these photos of her. You know, I watched a couple episodes of all these shows, and he looks like, you know, he's 50 years old. He looks like a dad. He looks like a normal dude, normal 80s dad. She's 36 and she's this pretty, you know, sweet looking girl. A fucking sweet honesty ad, you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's his girlfriend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're engaged and they were together for two years. She had been divorced and he's kind of like showering her with gifts. And it just gets weirder and weirder, though. And her family says in the beginning, like, we just didn't understand why she was with him at all and didn't trust him from the beginning. But I think, you know, he was a sociopath. So he was fucking charming at first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. He made her feel special.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. So on September 23, 1988, Maryanne tells the police that Mel lures Brenda to the house under the guise of her returning some jewelry that had belonged to Mel that I think he must have bought her. And when Brenda gets in the house, Mel pulls a gun and locks the door. And Marianne is there this whole time. He forces her to strip, then blindfolds, gags and binds her. And he uses the list of all the things he was gonna do to her and proceeds to go down the list doing each of them. He ties her to a coffee table and he rapes, sodomizes and beats her, all the while having Marianne take photos of what's going on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What the fuck?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What in the fuck? This is someone you were with for two years. You have grown children. Like, who the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let'S see. Marianne says she never joined in. She just took photos.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. Oh, okay. Marianne.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Everything's fine then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. You just took the photos of a vicious attack.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then that's even grosser.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Even grosser.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. How?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it's not. It's not gross.

[Georgia Hardstark]

See that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, you're standing by taking photos. Get out, lady.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't even watch a fucking bar fight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love a bar fight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love it. I love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What about it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just like. It's a very. It's like watching attention. It's from going to college in Sacramento. They happened all the time. Basically. Bars would clear out, and then people would just stand around watching people fight until the cops came, and then girls would, like, cry and like, you know, drunk girls crying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stop it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'd be like, if you just be quiet, it'll be over faster, and then we'll all go home. It's my favorite. It's just like, male. It's, you know, 80s male expression. They're just like, I'm not a football player and I'm not a frat boy. I don't know what to do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I don't know. I'm all pent up with my fucking testosterone and anger.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Me and my feeling. I have all these feelings and I'm not allowed to have them. And I listen to a lot of. Of Boston. So here, I'm going to punch you right in the face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I saw a couple of vicious fights before, so I feel like I have this aversion to them because they were too awful. Yeah. I don't like. I can't look. I love it. That's amazing. I love that. I love that. Anyways, back to the horror.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Da, da, da. She's taking photos. Says she never joins in. He then takes Mel, then takes Brenda back to the back bedroom and kills her by putting a rag soaked in chloroform over her mouth until she dies. Poor fucking baby. And then Marianne helps Mel cover up the murder by including burying Brenda in a hole they dug behind the house. So they bury her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Marianne.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So after her admission, 14 months after Brenda's disappearance, Marianne leads the investigators to the grave site. They find Brenda's badly decomposed body buried there. Of course, there's no DNA evidence since the body had been decomposed, but that's in 1988. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like now they could have. 14 months isn't that long to be buried, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I feel like these days they could get it in so many ways.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. But back then it was like. Yeah, yeah, totally different story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. So the investigators convinced Marianne to wear a wire to talk to Mel. And she tells them the FBI is hounding her. She's afraid the property behind her house is gonna be sold and developed. And he's on the tape berating her for letting the FBI, quote, rattle her and told her that he didn't care if they dug up the whole property because, quote, that place we dug is not shallow. So based on this recording, as well as a little physical evidence from his home, prosecutors charge Mel Ignatow with the murder in 1991. And then. And okay, let's see. So during one of the recorded conversations, when Mel says that place we dug is not shallow. He says, besides that one area right by where that site is does not have any trees by it. The defense attorney convinced the jury that Mel said safe and not sight. And so it led the jurors to conclude that the discussion involved burying a safe, not a body. So instead of sight, they thought it would, they convinced the jury that it was safe. Like they fucking buried a safe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But didn't Marianne already tell them everything they needed to know?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, so Marianne testifies she's a star witness, but she dresses like skimpy laughs the whole time during her testimony. And they argue. The defense argues that Marianne killed Brenda, not Mel. And so him saying that thing about a safe doesn't implicate him in the murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So. And she had been convicted of fraud before, and so her credibility is totally under. Underminded. Undermounded. Underminded.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Undermined.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Undermined in the eyes. Undermound. That was a joke. I knew it wasn't that. Steven, don't write that down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stephen, I see you writing that down under mounds.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Undermound. That's my new word. Oh. I wrote her. All of which undermines her credibility in the eyes of the stupid idiot jury. Then I said, the stupid idiot jury found Malignato not guilty on all seven counts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep. Then the judge, Martin Johnstone, he's so embarrassed by the verdict that he writes a letter of apology to the Shaffer family saying, if it was just me and not a jury, I would have fucking put this guy away forever. Which is, like, pretty amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then an interesting random fact. So this took place, like, December 21st or so, and it turns out that when a trial, the closer a trial takes place to Christmas, juries are more likely to acquit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That makes sense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't that fucked up?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is it because they want to get the fuck out of trial, or is it because they have, like. They have feelings of. You know when you get all fuzzy and cozy during the holidays and you're like, love and family and stuff. Stuff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I bet it's like. I bet it's a bit of both, depending on the personality. But it's like, normally where you wouldn't have either at play.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have now both at play.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So whether it's the person that's like. But I just watched this Hallmark movie about giving people second chance.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And, like, in the courtroom, there's, like, a Christmas tree in the corner, and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They'Re like, people are looking over there, like, said, I. I've got to go shopping. Now they bake cookies. So it just smells nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Immediate mistrial. No, they just spray air freshener. Smells like baked cookies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Spray Cinnamon Glade. Don't you love it? Okay. Innocent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so six months later. Okay, then. So he's out. This motherfucker. Six months later, he sells his house because he needs funds to pay for his legal bills. And the house is like. He's not a fucking trashy person. He has a beautiful house. He looks like a normal guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I argue. He is a trashy person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, clearly. You know what I mean? Like you wouldn't know. Like when I was like researching it, I was like, oh, I thought of like making a murderer dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who just like lives on a, you know, farm or whatever. No, it's like a lovely Tudor house. And he is your fucking dad's best friend in the 80s, you know? So he sells the house. He needs to pay for the legal bills. So a carpenter is laying a carpet layer, is working on the house. He pulls up a length of carpet in the hallway. Underneath that carpet is a floor vent. Inside that floor vent is a plastic bag taped to the inside of the vent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ooh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Inside the bag is the jewelry that Brenda had brought over the night of, as well as three rolls of undeveloped film.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shit. And he grabbed that bag and ran.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nope. Because he didn't own the fucking house anymore. Someone else owned it. Oh, you mean the guy, the carpenter?

[Karen Kilgariff]

The carpenter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, he did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, good. And then he, very silently, he nailed in some wood and covered that fence.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He opened all the. And he exposed the film. Anyways, that's the end of my story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The end.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bye. Yeah. So the fucking cops get those three rolls of film developed. It's like 180 photos of start to finish Marianne's. I mean, Brenda's torture and murder taken by Marianne. So everything she said was done by Mel. Holy shit. Well, Mel's face isn't in the film, but his body hair patterns and moles match it perfectly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, good. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And match her story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like she wasn't fucking lying. She's a fucking monster. Yes, but she wasn't lying. Hey, guess what, Karen?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ever heard of double jeopardy?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I sure have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, well, here it is. To ruin your night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause of double jeopardy, Mel can't be retried for Brenda's murder. He's brought to trial for perjury based on his grand jury testimony. Cause it's like all they could fucking do. He knew he couldn't be retried for murder. So he Confesses in court at his perjury trial to the whole fucking thing. Turns to Schaeffer, to Brenda's brothers, and says, but she died peacefully. Yeah. He gets an eight year sentence for perjury. Serves five of those years credit for two years that he was served and another year off for good behavior. You get. Can we look at your whole life of behavior and know that you murdered someone? And then. So that doesn't. So you fucking not getting in a fight at the mess hall. Doesn't take. Get time off your fucking sentence.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'd think one would think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Excuse me. So da, da, da, da, da. Sentenced. Okay. Good behavior. He's out. He gets another thing, another charge, another year, another thing for perjury, a different thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they're still going after him in whatever way they can, like they do on Law and Order. We'll get him for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, right. So he can gets. He's another. Another trial for perjury. Nine years for that. Released from prison for the second time in December 2006, he goes home to Louisville. Living at home four miles from the house where he murdered Brenda. Whoa. Two years later, September 1, 2008, Mel allegedly falls off a ladder, cuts his arm on a glass coffee table again. The coffee table slowly leads to death. Yay. What? He's 70 years old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, I'm sorry. So it's a ladder inside the house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know if it's a ladder, but, you know, he's like hanging a painting on a standing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Doing something. Got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Falls off of it. And some places say he breaks through the glass and cuts his arms. Some say his head. But either way, like, there was like blood marks where he like, climbed around the house and, like, couldn't. And so people are like, did he really fall, like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or did someone basically go smash his head into a glass coffee table?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Into a coffee table, which is the same thing he fucking tied Brenda to when she came over somewhere. I said, it's the same coffee table, but I don't think that's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that would be. Yeah, well, that would mean he would put that coffee table into storage.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it wasn't his coffee table to begin with. It was Marianne's house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Although I think he owned it. I don't know, something. So he's fucked. This piece of shit is dead at 70. In 2008, Marianne served three years of a five year sentence, dies from cancer in the hospice at age 54.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa, that's young. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. That's her body turned on herself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They were like, we're shutting this shit down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, she's a monster. Like, if you watch her talking and see her, she's a monster.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't understand. Like, he's dating. He's a 15 year old man dating a 36 year old or 34 year old. Why doesn't he just break up with her? Why does he have to kill her? Why does he have to like rape her and demean her and what's the deal?

[Georgia Hardstark]

In the worst way possible. And he planned it for weeks. Like he wanted to do this so badly to her and it was only two years. I mean, I just don't understand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's a beast. That's crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They went back and interviewed like ex girlfriends, his ex wife, and by all accounts, he's a sexual sadist. He's a fucking monster. Like, it's surprising that this is the first time he did it. Did that, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Especially because he planned, like at 50, he kills the first one, you know, and he had tortured his other girlfriends like this before and they all broke up with him or they ended the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Relationship somehow or there's just ones that they don't know about. Also, it's. Then it actually explains Marianne a little bit more because those. Because of how weird Svengali ish. Those types of men can be, where suddenly you're doing things that you would never do. Maybe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. I don't know her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We've talked a lot of shit about Marianne, but I'm just saying she's a victim too, in that way where it's just one more person in his weird chain of the way he uses women and what he does to women.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pits them against each other.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Where it's just like, well, you're the special one, so hold this camera. I mean, like, God, it's just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or she's terrified of him because she's had 10 years of psychological and physical abuse from him as well. And sexual abuse that, you know, she was with him for 10 years. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So maybe in so deep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And brainwashed, brainwashed, ptsd.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so ugly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's gross.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wish I had a positive spin on it at the end, but.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I don't think you can spin that one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There ain't one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're not that one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Poor Brenda.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That's awful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, we're back. Wow. Any updates on this story?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I mean, I think about this case a lot because I feel like when you. I just. I think about serving a search warrant on someone's house. Like, how far do you go? Do you pull walls off? Like, you just. Ah, it's so frustrating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, I just wonder how they do. I'm very curious about search warrants in houses and, like, what extent they go to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let me explain it to you, because I've watched Law and Order a bunch. It seems to me like it has to be within. There is almost like an evidentiary scope. Isn't that the thing they always say it's like, out of scope or not in scope. So you. If you were gonna pull the walls down, you would have to have some sort of, like, reliable evidence. Something's behind those walls.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And there's a list of things that they're looking for. And if there's no reason for that thing to be behind a wall, then. Yeah, yeah, you're probably right. But, you know. Right. Let us know. Tell us. We want to know, please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lawyers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. But I don't have any real updates, but this case, of course, continues to spark conversation about double jeopardy and how the legal system can fail. The show Evil Lives Here covered the case in a 2021 episode called He Got Away with Murder, which looks at what happened and how double jeopardy kept Mel Ignatau from being retried. I didn't mention this on the original episode, but there's also a book called Double Jeopardy Obsession, Murder and Justice Denied by Bob H. It came out in 1995, and it breaks down the twists in the case, the courtroom drama, and what went wrong. So check that out. And then in 2024, 48 hours released an episode called Double Jeopardy, which takes a deeper look at how the law prevented justice in this case. So just still a fascinating case to, like, deep dive into.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I bet you. I wonder how many lawyers got into, like, actually went and studied law because of this case or because of a double jeopardy case where it's like, how can that be?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's not fair. Right, but it is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it is for the protections of, like, you can't just keep retrying somebody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so we have a hometown from our own banana boy, Kurt Braunler, who was not at the time their podcast, Bananas, the Weird News Podcast, did not exist. No, but he, I think, called in and left a message.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So here's Kurt Bronler's hometown.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We have a murder from a friend. Should we do cards?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So, okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We haven't done a friend hometown murder in a while.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And we have a friend, Kurt Braunaller, who I'm sure you guys know he's a hilarious comedian and actor.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he called. Called one in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He called one in. I haven't listened to this. Let's hear Kurt's.

[Guest or Caller (e.g., Kurt Braunler)]

Hey, hi, it's Kurt. So here's my. Here's my murder story. This was a teacher that taught at my high school, Christian Brothers Academy. It sounds very fancy, but it wasn't really fancy. It was just an all boys Catholic school in Lindcroft, New Jersey. He was the Latin teacher a few years after I stopped going there. But the Latin teachers historically had been lunatics. The Latin teacher that was there when I was there was a monk, like a brother. Most of the teachers were brothers and they were all like weirdos. But he was like the weirdest of the weirdos. He wouldn't allow you to have a pen in class or hold a pen. And when we. And he also would just always constantly talk about his niece's little cupcake breast. Not kidding. He was obsessed about the meat. I heard many times about her little cupcake breasts. He was taken out of the position of being a Latin teacher because a kid in the class was holding a pen. And so we punched him in the mouth. And then they're like, okay, you don't get to teach anymore. And then that was taken over by my good friend Steve, who was a Latin teacher for a little while. He couldn't take it. It drove him crazy. He left. He stopped teaching and went to live in Italy to become a stone sculptor, a marble stone sculptor. And that's when this guy, this guy Matt, took over as the Latin teacher. But teaching Latin, the Christian Brothers Academy drove him so crazy that he just started getting into smoke and crack, apparently in the afternoon in a place that my aunt used to live called Ocean Grove. And Ocean Grove is a Christian community. So Christian that in the 80s, on Sunday they would close off the town to cars. Apparently, Jesus doesn't like you to drive a car on Sunday. And so my aunt used to live there and she used to babysit me, and she's since become a nun. So I'm just trying to express to you how Christian and Catholic this whole situation is. This guy works at Christian Brothers Academy. He's smoking crack with a woman whose last name is weed. So Ms. Weed and this guy Matt are smoking crack together on a Sunday afternoon. And then around 6:30pm, they get into an argument. He murders her with a knife. He stabs her nine times in the neck. After, I guess there was also some beating involved. It's very horrific. And then he just Walked out down the street to Ocean Grove. So mere minutes after people called the cops because they heard him screaming, they just found him wandering down the streets of this Christian town, just bloody having murdered this woman that he just loved to smoke crack with on a Sunday afternoon. This is at 6:30pm so whenever they started smoking crack, I have no idea, but that's what my high school duty. You.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's insanity.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is it weird that I never want to hang out with Kurt again? Because I'm terrified.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love the visual of a guy covered in blood walking through a town where you're not allowed to drive on the weekends.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It sounds like. It sounds like. Yeah, those. Like, it sounds like a Twilight Zone town.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so perfect that then a guy suddenly the image of the opposite of that walking through town.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, what was driving people so crazy about that Latin class?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That fucking Latin man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's some, like, devil shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Devil shit in there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's devilish.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't believe they taught it there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was quite the episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was dark.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That one had something for everybody, I think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, mostly murder. If everyone wanted murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, we're back and the only update there is that Kurt Braunahler and Scotty Landis have gone on to make a podcast here at exactly right again, called Bananas. Be sure to listen. It's very funny.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's like Kurt Kara Klank, she did a hometown and she has a podcast here, too. I mean, it's pretty clear our development.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Process, friends and family.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right. Okay, we're gonna jump back in for the end of the original show. Oh, wait, let's say something. Something good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, you go first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Well, mine is really big, but I also can't super get into detail about it. But I'll just say this. I had a year, a probably three year problem get resolved on Friday afternoon that has caused me so much stress and panic and shame. And it's a financial thing that's boring in detail. But I will tell you this. If you're in a place where you are fucked financially and you're worried and you're scared it will end, and I swear to God, I've been in this place before, but this was like a way, way, way bigger version. And it really felt hopeless at times. And. And it's over. And part of the reason it's over is because of this podcast. And I'm so grateful that we are doing it and that we have it. It means the world to me and I feel Crazy lucky that we actually get to do this as a job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Me too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so fun. And also just the fact that now this truly. It's like a 500 pound weight has been taken off my shoulders.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So happy for you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's really quite nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I had no idea how rough it was until it ended and you told me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. I couldn't tell anybody about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was so silly. Please tell me I can handle fucked up shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, yeah, now I know. It's just that thing where I think it's like. I think everybody has some version of it where it's like the problem where you think this means some terrible thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

About you around it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Or just like it's failure. It's I failed. And now everyone's gonna know I failed. But guess what? Everybody fails. Everybody fails on all different levels every day. And we're all trying to make ourselves feel better about it. So don't beat yourself up and just know the end. There's always a silver lining. There was always light at the end of the tunnel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I had in the same kind of idea of that what you just said I had after going to therapy since I was a child around five, I had the most amazing session today, I think ever. And she said to me halfway through, I know you're an atheist, Georgia, but you worship at the altar of doubt. And it fucking blew my mind. And so we're working on that now and how to get past doubt. And it was this switch today that I'm so It made me hopeful for the first time in a long time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When I met you when we were at Jones on the river tonight, today.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You absolutely seem different. Really? Yes. Well, you had first of all the big smile because somebody was telling you a story about murder. There was a murder story happening when I arrived, but then also. Yeah, just that kind of. You had almost like the, like, almost the eyes of like wide eyed wonder kind of thing of like, oh my God, you can look at the world in a different way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It felt. And so because of that, I want to say like. And I know it's so. So people try to find therapists and they're new at it and they're like, this didn't work for me or I didn't like this person. And it just is a lifetime of it. And I've had so many fucking therapists in my life and a handful have been really good. And the one I have, luckily right now is amazing. And you just have to keep trying, keep trying because you'll Find is almost.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A little bit like dating. It has to be a person that you want to spend that time with that you want to barf all your worst stuff onto.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that under.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That still doesn't make you feel bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They can't make you feel better.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And this is the first time she's ever said something straight up to me like that. And I fucking appreciate it so much. And this is after a year of getting to know me, and that was just life changing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's a good thing to realize and understand. There's options.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah. And fuck, man, I feel lucky, too, for this podcast. I can't believe this. My life. I'm so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're pretty lucky.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So lucky. Knock on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Knock on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What veneer would all of us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you, Steven. Thanks for Stephen, thank you so much for really bringing us together and making this podcast happen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Part of this. Oh, thank you, Stephen. Ray Morris of the podcast Like Turning Red, Flushing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stephen. Stephen, you can't be here if you can't take a compliment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm learning. I'm learning berating Stephen about not taking our compliment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's better if I yell at you right, than compliment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This feels like home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, we are back, man. Me talking real time about getting out of basically foreclosure on my house is what I was talking about right there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I remember that. I remember, like, the load that was lifted from your shoulders.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, dude, I painted myself into the corneriest corner of all time that I was like, well, I've really done it this time. There's just no way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you were wrong. Wrong. There was a way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was so happily wrong. I'll never forget calling you on the phone and being like, hey, how much merch money can I have? And you were like, you can have all the way up to this number. And I was like, can I have all of that today? And you're like, absolutely, absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know anything about taxes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm just gonna just. Who knows? Let me wire this to you quickly. I mean, truly. It was. It was. This podcast truly saved me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, me too. In so many ways. I do get sad looking at my happy thing because it. In a few episodes, it's gonna turn into a sad thing. My therapist.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I just keep thinking about, like, when we move into the loft, the pod loft, it's coming, you know, my therapist taking her life and so seeing that. I just wish I could. I wish she knew that, you know, I just. I'm very aware that that's coming up soon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Horrible. And such a. That was so shocking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's coming up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's tough.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, yeah, that was. That was rough.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But there's more to talk about. I mean, I ended up meeting her niece at a live show because of the podcast and her mother and. Yeah. Just there were pieces of joy that came from it. From a very sad thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So very sad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We'll get there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So we'll do the titles now. This is the most ungraceful transition, but I'll just say we're going to go ahead and do the titles now. We originally entitled this Some Quiet Sunday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is so good. If we were naming it today, maybe we would call it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It could be. We could name it Andy Fish, who is the lead character in our hit British co show Fish and Chips.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Candy Fish. Fish and Chips. Yes. Or just undermounted. Yes, undermounted does sound like it. I'm standing by it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you should.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And there's no reason not to. That's what the beauty of this podcast. We were like, if we record ourselves for two hours, how many mistakes can we make? And we're like, let's beat that every week. 150, 200, 300.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We got this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When we get to 5,000. And that's it. Speaking of. That's it. We're gonna let ourselves back then. And Elvis say goodbye for us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. But in the meantime, thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks, guys. Thanks for joining us, you guys, and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listening and participating and guess what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? He knows already.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know you're jumping your line.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Elvis, stay sexy and don't get murdered. Elvis, you want a cookie? Bye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, most of us don't treat our livers with any respect.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amen. We just kind of assume they'll keep showing up for work even if we don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fortunately, LiverMD is here to help.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

When your Liver struggles, you feel it. Fatigue, bloating, brain fog and slower recovery from those weekend indulgences. Take control of your liver health today with LiverMD.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Visit1md.org and use code MURDER to save 15 on your first order. Goodbye. Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of, like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robaix and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from hello Sunshine and iheart Podcasts where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off. Each week I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more. For conversations that will make you laugh, cry and add way too many books to your TBR pile, listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app app Apple Podcasts are wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club. Visit Apple Co ReeseAppleBooks to find out more. Betrayal Weekly is back for season two.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With brand new stories. The detective comes driving up fast and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like screeches right in the parking lot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I swear I'm not crazy, but I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Think he poisoned me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I feel trapped.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My breathing changes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I realize, wow. Like he is not a mentor.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's pretty much a monster.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But these aren't just stories of destruction, they're stories of survival. I'm going to tell my story and I'm going to hold my head up. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.