← My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 63: Steven's Tuxedo
01:40:16
Loading summary
Transcript855 lines
- [00:02]
Karen Kilgariff
This is exactly right.
- [00:06]
Georgia Hardstark
The hit TV drama High Potential is back. Season two stars Kaitlyn Olson as Morgan, a crime solving single mom with an IQ of 160. Every week, Morgan uses her unconventional style and exceptional mind to crack LAPD's most perplexing cases. This show is the perfect blend of humor and mystery. Watch as Morgan breaks the mold without breaking a sweat. No new episodes of High potential Tuesdays at 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu. Goodbye. Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.
- [00:39]
Karen Kilgariff
Join host Michael Cyril Creighton behind the scenes to talk all things arconia with.
- [00:44]
Georgia Hardstark
Steve Martin, Martin Short, Selena Gomez and more. Actors, writers and crew from season five.
- [00:49]
Karen Kilgariff
Watch and listen to the new podcast series Only Murders in the Building Official.
- [00:53]
Georgia Hardstark
Podcast now streaming with new episodes Tuesdays.
- [00:56]
Karen Kilgariff
Listen wherever you get your podcasts and.
- [00:57]
Georgia Hardstark
Don'T miss Only Murders in the Building streaming on who Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers terms apply. Goodbye. Your pet is your best friend, your therapist and your unpaid intern.
- [01:08]
Karen Kilgariff
So don't just feed them, fuel them with Hill's Pet Nutrition.
- [01:12]
Georgia Hardstark
Hills is backed by science to support whole body health in dogs and cats.
- [01:16]
Karen Kilgariff
As a leader in science led nutrition, Hill supports lean muscles which are essential for everything your pet does, whether that's the Zoomies, Squirrel Patrol or occasionally knocking something over. Hill's Science led Nutrition helps you give more love than humanly possible because you're only human. There's Hills.
- [01:32]
Georgia Hardstark
Science does more. Find the right food@hillspet.com iheart goodbye.
- [01:44]
Karen Kilgariff
My.
- [01:45]
Georgia Hardstark
Favorite.
- [01:53]
Karen Kilgariff
Hello and welcome to To Rewind.
- [01:57]
Georgia Hardstark
With Karen and Georgia.
- [01:58]
Karen Kilgariff
That's right. Every Wednesday we recap our old shows with all new commentary, updates and insights. You are welcome.
- [02:05]
Georgia Hardstark
Today we're recapping episode 63. We're getting so close to 100, which we named Steven's Tuxedo.
- [02:13]
Karen Kilgariff
This episode came out April 6, 2017, just a hundred years ago.
- [02:19]
Georgia Hardstark
Let's listen to the intro of episode 63 in 2017. What are you thinking like that for?
- [02:27]
Karen Kilgariff
I'm just. Stephen is looking at his knobs very.
- [02:32]
Georgia Hardstark
Concerned, intently and concerned.
- [02:34]
Karen Kilgariff
Almost like a dj.
- [02:36]
Georgia Hardstark
He did look like Steve Aoki. Kind of.
- [02:39]
Karen Kilgariff
He looked like a Las Vegas dj, totally being like, what about the treble?
- [02:44]
Georgia Hardstark
That's me.
- [02:44]
Karen Kilgariff
What about the bass? Have you done any DJing, Steven in Las Vegas?
- [02:51]
Georgia Hardstark
Can't say I have. But it's the dream, you know?
- [02:53]
Karen Kilgariff
Is that where you're aiming? Is that the goal?
- [02:54]
Georgia Hardstark
To be on one of those billboards for Hakkasan?
- [02:58]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes. Oh DJ Steve. What would.
- [03:01]
Georgia Hardstark
What would your.
- [03:02]
Karen Kilgariff
What's a better DJ name for Steven?
- [03:04]
Georgia Hardstark
DJ Mustache.
- [03:05]
Karen Kilgariff
DJ Stache.
- [03:07]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, shit.
- [03:08]
Karen Kilgariff
DJ Stash coming this fall.
- [03:13]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. What if it's Elvis and Steven? Elvis is the hangout.
- [03:17]
Karen Kilgariff
Don't try to shove Elvis into this. This is Steven's project for Las Vegas.
- [03:21]
Georgia Hardstark
Sorry, Ste.
- [03:22]
Karen Kilgariff
Elvis gets up and moves like, scratches the record himself.
- [03:26]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Oh, Elvis. Anything to say about that? He came up to the mic and then just. He did on the mic. He's about to fucking. Elvis is the emcee with a lot of intent. Steven is the dj. Elvis is the mc. Speaking of Elvis and Steven, we have a corrections corner. Because last week, glaringly missing from the episode was both Steven and Elvis. Because Steven thinks he can take a fucking vacation and fucking walk away from this thing that we were going to give you a shit about it.
- [03:59]
Karen Kilgariff
Steven, the unpaid intern that does the most work of anyone on this podcast.
- [04:03]
Georgia Hardstark
He thinks he can go visit his.
- [04:05]
Karen Kilgariff
Mother, he can visit family, that he can stay behind in Portland.
- [04:10]
Georgia Hardstark
Nope.
- [04:10]
Karen Kilgariff
Do whatever he wants in Portland.
- [04:12]
Georgia Hardstark
Don't worry. He begged us to come back.
- [04:15]
Karen Kilgariff
And we were like, we'll talk. We'll talk it through.
- [04:17]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [04:18]
Karen Kilgariff
So this is his trial episode. Yeah.
- [04:20]
Georgia Hardstark
And Elvis revolted. Cause he was like, well. So. Well, that means we recorded at the Ferrell Audio Studios. And like, when I got there, I was like, wait a minute, Elvis isn't here. So he wasn't on either. But don't worry, he's fine.
- [04:35]
Karen Kilgariff
Lot of concern, Lot of social media concern for Elvis. He's very healthy. He's here in front of us, flicking his tail around as we speak.
- [04:44]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. And they were like, are Georgia and Karen okay? Cause they're not yelling at Steve in this episode.
- [04:48]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. They're like, this is all very uncomfortable, but everyone's fine.
- [04:52]
Georgia Hardstark
Somebody was like, does your mom yell at you? Like, Karen, do you miss it? Yeah, of course. Did you miss getting reprimanded for shit that you had nothing to do with.
- [05:03]
Karen Kilgariff
That is clearly our fault?
- [05:06]
Georgia Hardstark
I did do the. I did do a. My favorite murder related activity. I sent you guys pictures. I went to Klein Falls, which was the subject of one of the live stories.
- [05:14]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes.
- [05:14]
Georgia Hardstark
Which was like. It was eerie. Cause I'd never done anything like that. Like visited the site of something. But my mom is like, oh, it's just up the road from where I live. I'm like, okay, I guess I'll take pictures. Cause people might want to see this. But it changes the view when you know that someone got fucking bludgeoned by A hatchet there.
- [05:33]
Karen Kilgariff
So crazy.
- [05:34]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Well, welcome back, Stephen. Thank you.
- [05:37]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, we're glad you're back. Yeah, we're glad you're back. I do have a thing that it's not. It's neither. It's a new corner, but it's almost like an announcement corner, but it just fits. Like, I've heard from enough people online. You and I have talked about it enough. So this feels like a thing that just needs to be said, which is more like this. We love touring. We love doing live shows. We have the best time. It is such an amazing thing to come out to a wall of energy and people's positivity. It's the best. 99% of the people that go to our shows and participate in our shows are lovely, joyous people who are having a great time. We heard from a bunch of people from Portland who didn't have the best time at a couple of those shows because there were people around them that were yelling so much at us the entire show. And there has been a thought that has been floated in the community that we like it when people yell at us.
- [06:44]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God.
- [06:45]
Karen Kilgariff
From the audience during the show, because then it's a chance for me to yell at people or for us to make jokes about it. And just for corrections, just no hard feelings. We've always had a great time. We will continue to have a great time. But just so you know, we don't like it when you yell at us at all during the show. And it's gotten to a point now where we just have to completely ignore people. There was a show in Portland that was crazy. There were people in the audience that were yelling at us literally the entire time. And it was. There were people around them bumming out.
- [07:19]
Georgia Hardstark
I know. So we have to. What do we do? We can't. If we say something to them, then that they'll keep doing it, but we don't say anything. We don't say anything.
- [07:28]
Karen Kilgariff
What we do is this. We let people know that we love your energy, that we love that you want to participate. But please don't tell yourself we want you to yell at us, because that is not true at all. It's never been true. And for me, being a standup comic for 20 years, when you get a heckler in an audience, you shut the heckler down, because that's how you perform a show of comedy. That's how you keep in control of the crowd, but you don't want to be heckled. So just because comedy comes out of it doesn't mean, that's a positive experience for anybody, and it certainly ruins the time of the people around you. Like, there was a couple people during one of those shows, and it was just constant commentary the whole time, and it's not pleasant, and we now just ignore it.
- [08:16]
Georgia Hardstark
As someone who's kind of new at this whole onstage thing, it's really distracting to, like, to keep being distracted by this when I'm trying to, like, concentrate on being a good performer and telling my story well and not being nervous and, you know, sitting up straight, not accidentally flashing my underwear and, you know.
- [08:37]
Karen Kilgariff
Well, and we really have worked. It's not like anyone can say this is any kind of. Like, we're not doing crowd work. Especially by the time we sit down and we're reading our stories, we have a presentation that we want to give to everybody and that everybody wants to hear. 99.5% of the people in the room want to hear what we're saying. So if you are the person that got drunk and couldn't stop yelling or you thought it would be funny to yell or talk to us, just know, no one's mad at you. Everything's fine. But, yeah, we absolutely don't want that to be happening. So just as clarity, it seems like there was people in the audience in Portland who were upset because they paid good money and they waited just as long. And they're just as big of a fan as anybody going crazy who can't control themselves and yell the whole time. Well, there's people around you who are just as big of a fan, and yet they're controlling themselves. We understand where it's coming from, and believe me, when I saw the Kids in the hall live at the UCLA.
- [09:40]
Georgia Hardstark
Theater.
- [09:43]
Karen Kilgariff
I wanted to scream chicken lady the entire time. I wanted them to know what I like. I wanted them to know what was in my mind and heart. I wanted them to understand how loyal you were. Cause it's a big deal to me, and it meant a lot to me. So, honestly, the fact that there are people having those feelings toward us, it's my dream come true. We take it the way you mean it, but we would love to not have to deal with it.
- [10:07]
Georgia Hardstark
You being there is enough. Can I do new podcasts that I like Corner, please. But I'm worried. Okay. So I found this podcast because I was. We're going to Milwaukee, and I was doing a lot of research into Milwaukee murders. So stop me if you're working on this.
- [10:24]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, I'm not. You have a picture. I'm gonna stop you by telling you I'm not working on anything, so go for it.
- [10:31]
Georgia Hardstark
Great. So I found this one because it was such an interesting story, and I'm like, how have I never heard about this before? And then, as I do with every story that I put in the name and podcast, because I don't want, like, Sword and Scale to have done it a week ago, and I seem like a fucking asshole, right? So I did this one, and I found this podcast called Unsolved, and it's about this kidnapping and murder of this kid named John zira back in 1976. And they never found the guy, but they maybe found this. There's all these suspects. And of course, it's just like the Johnny Gosh story where it's like, look how bad this was bungled because we didn't know how to find people. And there's two different districts, and they interviewed people and didn't follow through. And then this guy later turns out to be this child molester. And Is it him? Isn't it him? Is it not him? But it's a good podcast, and it's a. Every episode's really short, and it's by another awesome female investigative journalist, which I'm really stoked that there's so many of those lately.
- [11:34]
Karen Kilgariff
So many now.
- [11:35]
Georgia Hardstark
So many. And, you know, so it gives it a little bit of. Yeah, so it's a good one. So unsolved. Unsolved, yeah. And then you were telling me about one that I started listening to called Hollywood and Crime.
- [11:47]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. Yeah.
- [11:48]
Georgia Hardstark
What's that one?
- [11:48]
Karen Kilgariff
Okay, so Hollywood and Crime is about. And I did a thing. Finally. I thought. I pre thought it out and downloaded all the episodes before I got on the plane.
- [12:00]
Georgia Hardstark
So I don't do that.
- [12:01]
Karen Kilgariff
It makes me crazy. You get on the plane, you're like, fine, I'll listen to the thing now. You haven't downloaded it. You can't listen. That being said, see as we grow and change, I pre downloaded eight episodes of Hollywood and Crime.
- [12:13]
Georgia Hardstark
Amazing.
- [12:14]
Karen Kilgariff
I was so proud. Filled with pride. And what it is, is the Black Dahlia murder, which happened in 1944.
- [12:25]
Georgia Hardstark
4, 6, 9, something.
- [12:30]
Karen Kilgariff
7. It happened in the 40s.
- [12:34]
Georgia Hardstark
Great. There.
- [12:34]
Karen Kilgariff
It definitely happened in the 40s. Steven will jump on it. But the interesting thing is there were other female murder mutilations around Los Angeles at the same time that people don't talk about. And so it strings together all of these different cases, and it's unbelievable.
- [12:53]
Georgia Hardstark
And how they're related. I only listened to, like, 10 minutes of the first episode, and already it was like they both worked at the same fucking nightclub.
- [12:59]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes, there was definitely. At least, I think I was up to the fourth episode, and I'm like, there's 100%, like, a slashy face killer in Los Angeles. And it was.
- [13:10]
Georgia Hardstark
Because it was very slashy face killer.
- [13:11]
Karen Kilgariff
The slashy face killer. World War II, they don't.
- [13:15]
Georgia Hardstark
That's the thing about it, I was thinking is, like, there's so much shit during World War II that nobody paid attention to because the news was filled with World War II.
- [13:22]
Karen Kilgariff
World War II, constantly. And most the boys were being shipped out and coming back. And that whole thing around. There was a thing called the Hollywood Canteen, which was where. The Formosa. Down on Formosa, I think. Or somewhere in Hollywood proper where active duty soldiers would go and they would get to dance with actresses. Like Bette Davis used to run it. And you could go there and, like, I think that alcohol wasn't allowed, and you couldn't, like, have any romantic. Like, romance wasn't gonna be.
- [13:54]
Georgia Hardstark
But, like, you'd pay for a slow dance or any kind of dance.
- [13:56]
Karen Kilgariff
Well, I don't think you had to pay because you were. That was. The whole idea is, like, if you're active duty, but you're on leave, you can come to the Hollywood Canteen and like, basically party with celebrities, and it's all on us.
- [14:07]
Georgia Hardstark
And all the ladies thought they were, like, doing a service for the servicemen.
- [14:11]
Karen Kilgariff
That's right.
- [14:12]
Georgia Hardstark
And it was.
- [14:13]
Karen Kilgariff
And she. And Elizabeth Black Dolly went there. Elizabeth Smart. Nope. Elizabeth Short.
- [14:19]
Georgia Hardstark
Short. God. Now, I don't know. It's a mix of, like. Wait, one of those is Smart is modern.
- [14:27]
Karen Kilgariff
Short is right. She went there, and so did a couple of these victims. One of them is called the Bathtub. It was called the Bathtub murder. And it was this woman who had a lot of money, this young woman. She went to the canteen a lot, and she was found in a bathtub full of bloody water. And her face. I believe her face was cut because.
- [14:51]
Georgia Hardstark
Elizabeth Short was drained of blood. And they thought it was done. And they thought. They surmised it was done in a bathtub, right?
- [14:59]
Karen Kilgariff
I think so. Or they definitely know it was not. They had her somewhere for a long time. That's the horrible part of that murder, is that she was tortured for a long time. And the person that killed her and may have killed these other women is the worst serial killer ever. And they never caught it. And if they're not related, that it's such an insane coincidence that these murders were happening all around the same Time.
- [15:27]
Georgia Hardstark
I hate how normal her autopsy photos are getting where, like you click on cold case file or cold cases and you click on images and it's just a close up of her face. Have you seen that?
- [15:37]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. With the horrible cutting.
- [15:38]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. And it's just like. You don't even put in like, Black Dahlia murder, you know, like. And you see these like, crime scene photos.
- [15:45]
Karen Kilgariff
It's rough.
- [15:46]
Georgia Hardstark
And I fucking hate. You know, I love crime scene photos. I bought a fucking book called, like, Crime Scene Photos basically when we were.
- [15:52]
Karen Kilgariff
In Portland to prove how much you love crime scenes.
- [15:56]
Georgia Hardstark
I just wanted to prove it. No, but it's actually, I kind of fucked myself over because it was vintage crime scene photo. So I was like, great. It'll be like mobs. Mobsters and like that kind of thing.
- [16:05]
Karen Kilgariff
Good outfits.
- [16:06]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. It's not. It's horrifying. It's very graphic. Oh, no, it's not late night reading.
- [16:14]
Karen Kilgariff
And it's vintage in terms of like, it was back when people would die of horrible things, right? Like rabies or something.
- [16:20]
Georgia Hardstark
Well, there's. There are rabies ones. Actually.
- [16:22]
Karen Kilgariff
The rabies ones are the worst thing of all time.
- [16:25]
Georgia Hardstark
There's just. It's all. It's. It's more like horrors. And there's a description. Actually, I found out it's like a Los Angeles police detectives book of his cases that they turn into a coffee table book for people who don't get dates.
- [16:42]
Karen Kilgariff
Hey, hey, watch it. We do fine.
- [16:47]
Georgia Hardstark
Vince doesn't want to see it. Here's a guy with elephantitis of the nuts and Vince wanted to look at that. It's pretty fucking fabulous.
- [16:54]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, man. Yeah, That's a good book. I mean, that's the kind of thing. The reason I don't look at those pictures anymore is because in the 90s, when I was, you know, a riot girl or whatever the hell I thought I was doing, there were lots of times where we would look through books like that. And it was almost like a contest of, like, everyone would look at this crazy thing and be like, well, I don't even care because Kurt Cobain. And I've seen things that I still see it in my mind, like the child who died of rabies. I can see it in my mind when I say that it's. It's horrible.
- [17:25]
Georgia Hardstark
I can too, but for some reason, it makes me want to, like, consume as much of it as I can so that. So, you know, I just don't want to look away. Yeah. Yeah. So I know.
- [17:36]
Karen Kilgariff
Hey, speaking. That just reminded me there Is a movie. Have you ever seen the. It's like kind of a documentary. It's called Wisconsin Death Trip. Okay. It is the best. I don't know. Stephen, have you seen it? No, I haven't. He just did the most hilarious nod. No, no, no, no, no, no.
- [17:57]
Georgia Hardstark
Don't get me wrong.
- [18:00]
Karen Kilgariff
It is. They took a book. I think it was just of like the police blotter from cities around Wisconsin in the 1800s. Mid-1800s, I believe. And so they just read the stories of what the police, you know, what they were doing and what the crimes were. And it's insane because it's just like today, except for it was in the mid-1800s. So it's like a boy walked into a farmyard and shot the two people standing there and walked away. And when the police arrested him, he said he was bored. And then there's like mothers who go and drown their children in the river and all these things that we think are happening now and they're just, oh, this time we live in. And it's so awful or whatever. And it's like, you gotta watch Wisconsin Death Trip. It's just.
- [18:50]
Georgia Hardstark
What are they? What are the video. What's the video of?
- [18:52]
Karen Kilgariff
The visuals are this really awesome sepia toned, like B roll that they took all around. Cause so much of Wisconsin is really nature and farms and there's, you know. So they basically are just. If it's. If the crime is about a person walking into a farmyard, they walk down a road and they get like a little kid in overalls holding a gun or what? But they don't. It's not like act. It's not total reenactments. It's just more of like to feel. Yeah, right. And this kind of creepy, like a distant white farmhouse, you know that where it's like. It is creepy.
- [19:26]
Georgia Hardstark
I want to see that.
- [19:27]
Karen Kilgariff
You don't want to see it.
- [19:28]
Georgia Hardstark
I do. Oh, oh, no. I want to see that.
- [19:30]
Karen Kilgariff
I thought you were like. Nope. The farmhouse.
- [19:32]
Georgia Hardstark
I don't want to see that.
- [19:32]
Karen Kilgariff
Shut me down.
- [19:33]
Georgia Hardstark
I can't deal with kids in overalls. Really makes. It really triggers me.
- [19:38]
Karen Kilgariff
It triggers you about me in grammar school.
- [19:41]
Georgia Hardstark
About me when I was a waitress and I had to wear fucking overalls.
- [19:44]
Karen Kilgariff
Where?
- [19:45]
Georgia Hardstark
This little cafe in Santa Monica when I was like 19. And they required you to wear overalls?
- [19:50]
Karen Kilgariff
What? Full overalls or like an overall skirt dress.
- [19:54]
Georgia Hardstark
I think you could do whatever you wanted, but all I had was like, Dickies overalls.
- [19:57]
Karen Kilgariff
Was it a gas station restaurant? Like one of those, like.
- [20:00]
Georgia Hardstark
It was Country. It was like a country themed restaurant. Yeah. Can we do a gift corner in a podcast? Yeah, let's do that.
- [20:13]
Karen Kilgariff
No, no, no, no.
- [20:15]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay, real quick.
- [20:15]
Karen Kilgariff
I sent a couple really good presents.
- [20:17]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Really quickly. We were opening presents before this. Sent to the pox. Thank you guys so much.
- [20:21]
Karen Kilgariff
Every day is Christmas. My favorite murder.
- [20:23]
Georgia Hardstark
Yay. This is how we love you. This is how to get us to love you. Okay, so we got these incredible pins. They're like the enamel pins that everyone loves. One is like a closed switchblade. So cool. It's so cool. One is a fucking Ouija board. A little enamel Ouija board with a movable. What do they call these? The movie part?
- [20:43]
Karen Kilgariff
Cursor.
- [20:44]
Georgia Hardstark
Cursor.
- [20:44]
Karen Kilgariff
Old fashioned cursor.
- [20:46]
Georgia Hardstark
It's. It's a cursor one. And then there's one that says sweet honesty. One says fuck politeness, which I'm putting on a leather jacket. One that says slightly spooky, which I guess we said at some point in our lives.
- [20:58]
Karen Kilgariff
Or maybe it's from another true crime podcast she likes.
- [21:00]
Georgia Hardstark
Right?
- [21:00]
Karen Kilgariff
Or he.
- [21:01]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay, okay. It says, dear Georgia, Karen, and Steven, thank you for making the best podcast in the world. We have no murders to share, but wanted to gift you guys with some killer pins. 50% of the pros for the sweet honesty pin goes to end the backlog. The rest of us are just selfish. And then it's one of those emojis where it's a smiley face shrugging, which I love. Don't know how to do, but I love.
- [21:23]
Karen Kilgariff
That's a good one.
- [21:24]
Georgia Hardstark
Thank you all so much by Crystal, Kim and Anna. And the company is called. Fuck. Called Memento Mori Mori. Memento Mori.
- [21:37]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [21:37]
Georgia Hardstark
So go and figure those things out on Etsy because they're really cool pins.
- [21:40]
Karen Kilgariff
They're such nice pins. Yeah, very cool. And we got a whole box full of them.
- [21:44]
Georgia Hardstark
Thanks, you guys. Thanks, guys.
- [21:45]
Karen Kilgariff
Nice designs.
- [21:46]
Georgia Hardstark
Good job.
- [21:47]
Karen Kilgariff
High five.
- [21:48]
Georgia Hardstark
All right, let's do the official nose blowing.
- [21:51]
Karen Kilgariff
Great.
- [21:51]
Georgia Hardstark
And then what? Means we start.
- [21:54]
Karen Kilgariff
If I were a crafty person, I would send you in the mail, like five little black tablecloth handkerchiefs.
- [22:04]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay. Isn't that gross, though, to save your snot?
- [22:08]
Karen Kilgariff
It's super disgusting, but it's a funny joke. Referencing when you blew your nose on the tablecloth. No, no. Good.
- [22:14]
Georgia Hardstark
No, I get it now. I get it now. I didn't understand.
- [22:17]
Karen Kilgariff
Saving your salt is beyond disgusting and makes no sense.
- [22:21]
Georgia Hardstark
But I did blow my nose on a tablecloth in Portland.
- [22:24]
Karen Kilgariff
That did happen.
- [22:25]
Georgia Hardstark
So that would be.
- [22:26]
Karen Kilgariff
It was pretty goddamn great. I felt like everyone felt very freed.
- [22:30]
Georgia Hardstark
By that action as I was bending down to do it. I was like, you should be humiliated while you're doing this. And I didn't. No, it's just gone now.
- [22:37]
Karen Kilgariff
It's almost like we're just breaking down the rules of society.
- [22:42]
Georgia Hardstark
You, mom.
- [22:42]
Karen Kilgariff
Come to our live show. You won't believe what we do.
- [22:45]
Georgia Hardstark
Tricks and things and blowing. Blown to shreds and minds blown. Minds and laws blown.
- [22:56]
Karen Kilgariff
You or me?
- [22:57]
Georgia Hardstark
I don't know. Me. You should know this. Oh, my gosh, Georgia. Yes. Because he did the Gorilla Killer.
- [23:07]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, that's right.
- [23:08]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay. I don't remember what I did last week. Oh, I do. No, I don't. Okay. All right. Ready for a serial kill?
- [23:16]
Karen Kilgariff
I do. You did the Moore's Murders, right? Crazy. And then someone sent me a text saying, did you know that the Smith song Suffer the Little Children is about the Moore's murders?
- [23:28]
Georgia Hardstark
That's right.
- [23:30]
Karen Kilgariff
Which you kind of have. They say their names in the song.
- [23:33]
Georgia Hardstark
Do they? Yeah, yeah.
- [23:35]
Karen Kilgariff
Hindley. He calls her Henley.
- [23:36]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay. Ooh, that's so cool. Let's all listen to it. That's her new theme song. Are they gonna sue us for that?
- [23:45]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [23:45]
Georgia Hardstark
All right. And we're back. And as we're recording this right now, we're about to go on tour.
- [23:54]
Karen Kilgariff
That's right.
- [23:55]
Georgia Hardstark
But when this comes out, we'll be on tour. So I don't know how time works.
- [23:59]
Karen Kilgariff
But, I mean, it's a loop. You've said it many a times. Flat circle. And I do think it's kind of funny that we're, like, talking on the episode we're rewinding right now about the experience that we had in Portland on a live show. Now we're gonna talk about talking about it.
- [24:16]
Georgia Hardstark
How many circles can we linearly go around in?
- [24:21]
Karen Kilgariff
I mean, one time, it seems like plenty.
- [24:25]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [24:26]
Karen Kilgariff
But this was a major moment in live show history.
- [24:29]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. I wonder what number show this was for us. Like, total. But Portland was incredible. The audience was great. We, like, insisted on going back there, of course, for this next tour, because of that. You know, there's so many cool girls with tattoos there. How could we not have a great time?
- [24:46]
Karen Kilgariff
It's hard not to feel like. Well, I think we do this in every city we visit, where we're like, these are the real Murderinos. But Portland, of course, and especially in these early live shows. And I do think we found out at some point that there was a drink special that got people especially fucked up. Remember, I think it was like, Tall boys or something. There was some sort of, like, in the theater, at the bar thing that people were taking advantage of. And so it was a little rowdier than I think we expected.
- [25:15]
Georgia Hardstark
Right. And then we had to set some ground rules after this. So I don't remember what those are, but we're gonna probably try to bring them back this tour.
- [25:23]
Karen Kilgariff
Well, I mean, it's pretty basic. It's like if you've ever taken one theater acting class, it's like you're not allowed to get on the stage when other people are doing a show. That's never been allowed in the history of entertainment. Just crawling up on stage with your sister.
- [25:39]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, actually, when this comes out, like two weeks later is when we'll be in Portland or three weeks later, so. Oh, it's sold out. Nevermind. Go to my favorite murder.com live and see if there's any tickets left anywhere. I think, like, there's always like a little tiny batch of tickets that comes out at the very end, like right before the show, because they've been holding tickets for VIPs or whatever. And so sometimes tickets just happen to become available at all the shows.
- [26:06]
Karen Kilgariff
Also, if you go under a bridge, night of show, there's often a guy in a trench coat that can help you out that we place there. It's Steven. Shaved muscles.
- [26:15]
Georgia Hardstark
Love that guy. I'm still on the fence about whether I should be eating homemade gifts from fans that bring them to shows, which I've done in the past, been warned multiple times not to, but I love Rice Krispie treats so much.
- [26:32]
Karen Kilgariff
And also, it's like, these are the girls that are afraid of the people that do that. They're not the girls that do it.
- [26:39]
Georgia Hardstark
Right.
- [26:39]
Karen Kilgariff
But that's a dumb thing to think about. A mass of people that's just. That's naive. It's us telling ourselves a lie. When I was looking at this and remembered in these next couple rewinds that we're doing that we had a company like Voodoo Donuts making us donuts of ourselves and delivering them to the theater, I was like, why didn't I remember that? That's. What a gift.
- [27:05]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [27:06]
Karen Kilgariff
Like, what a lovely sentiment.
- [27:07]
Georgia Hardstark
What's great about this tour is now we're more social media savvy. We have a social media person, so we can actually post all this stuff on social media. So make sure you follow us.
- [27:16]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. Give a little credit. I mean, we were doing kind of independently here and there. But the thing about us is you can't accuse us of being overly Organized or planning ahead, having follow through. I mean, you know, just really kind of being in the place where we're supposed to be and acting like that's what we're doing. It's like there's a lot. There's a lot to this experience. But I feel like a big part of this whole journey has been the Portland live audience. The people that have showed up for us from day one. Real life Portland. We're here to get fucked up with you. We're here to interact with you. We want the full. The full experience.
- [27:57]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Two of my very best friends in the world are gonna be in the audience. Cause those fucking bitches insisted on moving to Portland against me. That's what it feels like against me. So I'm excited for that.
- [28:11]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, that's very exciting. Mine too. Jason Lopez will be there from the Gap.
- [28:14]
Georgia Hardstark
Yes. Hell yeah. We should have them all like sitting on stage as like the audience. On stage. Audience.
- [28:21]
Karen Kilgariff
I wonder if there is like a special. A special balcony. I remember this theater. When we're talking about this Portland show, it was that theater that was in a building that used to be a school.
- [28:32]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, High school or something. It was so fucking cool. It just felt like we were on like a teen drama from the 90s. It was amazing. Oh, someone gave us nipple tassels.
- [28:41]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, yeah, from the strip club.
- [28:42]
Georgia Hardstark
I have a photo of it. Oh, yeah. I have some photos that I found from old live shows from back then, including the titty tassels that I will give to Shannon to post on social media.
- [28:52]
Karen Kilgariff
Nice. Get it going.
- [28:54]
Georgia Hardstark
Remember the person who made us who painted our pets? Mine were on wine glasses and yours were on Christmas ornaments.
- [28:59]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, yes. I still have those.
- [29:01]
Georgia Hardstark
I do too. Like, they're fabulous. Displayed in my house are fucking gorgeous. I have a photo of all of those.
- [29:06]
Karen Kilgariff
I mean, the people give. And I think there is a serious, like, arts. I mean, not to. It's like the true arts of arts and crafts group of people in Portland. I think there's. The people there are like, watch me craft this.
- [29:19]
Georgia Hardstark
This is what I'm building them up. They better fucking bring it.
- [29:22]
Karen Kilgariff
We want more. And this is our passive aggressive way of demanding it from the Portland audience.
- [29:29]
Georgia Hardstark
Well, okay. Should we get into it because of the live shows and just because we are so disorganized? This is the third time in a row that I go first.
- [29:36]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes. I love it.
- [29:38]
Georgia Hardstark
What are you gonna do?
- [29:39]
Karen Kilgariff
Well, then let's get into Georgia's story. Right now. She tells the story of the murderer Joseph Edward Duncan iii.
- [29:50]
Georgia Hardstark
Your pet is your best friend, your therapist and your unpaid intern.
- [29:55]
Karen Kilgariff
So don't just feed them, fuel them with Hill's Pet Nutrition.
- [29:58]
Georgia Hardstark
Hills is backed by science to support whole body health in dogs and cats.
- [30:02]
Karen Kilgariff
As a leader in science led nutrition, Hills supports lean muscles which are essential for everything your pet does, whether that's the Zoomies, Squirrel Patrol or occasionally knocking something over. Hill's Science Led Nutrition helps you give more love than humanly possible because you're only human. There's Hills.
- [30:18]
Georgia Hardstark
Science does more. Find the right food@hillspet.com iheart goodbye a sleek professional website makes you look very put together even when you're wearing sweatpants and eating cereal out of a mug.
- [30:31]
Karen Kilgariff
And that's where Squarespace comes in.
- [30:33]
Georgia Hardstark
Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer your services and get paid all in one place.
- [30:37]
Karen Kilgariff
From consultations to experiences. Showcase your services with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your.
- [30:44]
Georgia Hardstark
Business and managing those payments is a breeze. In just a few clicks you'll be able to accept payments with options like Klarna, Apple Pay, afterpay and more.
- [30:52]
Karen Kilgariff
You'll get paid on time with professional on brand invoices and online payments. Plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools and.
- [31:01]
Georgia Hardstark
Get discovered faster with Squarespace's built in SEO tools. With meta descriptions and auto generated sitemaps, you'll rank higher in search results globally.
- [31:10]
Karen Kilgariff
Go to squarespace.com murder for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use Offer Code murder to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
- [31:19]
Georgia Hardstark
That's squarespace.com murder code murder goodbye Goodbye.
- [31:24]
Karen Kilgariff
Look, at some point you gotta retire that couch you inherited from three roommates ago.
- [31:28]
Georgia Hardstark
Article makes upgrading simple, stylish and worth every penny.
- [31:31]
Karen Kilgariff
Article makes it EAS create a stylish, long lasting home and thanks to their online only model, they have some unbeatable prices too.
- [31:38]
Georgia Hardstark
They offer a curated range of mid century, modern, coastal and Scandi inspired pieces that not only shine on their own, but also pair seamlessly with other Article products.
- [31:47]
Karen Kilgariff
Article takes great care in curating its collection, focusing solely on high quality, meaningful pieces that will stand the test of time. There's no filler, every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design and lasting value.
- [31:59]
Georgia Hardstark
An article provides fast and affordable shipping across the US and Canada. You get to choose your delivery time and they'll keep you in the loop with updates along the way.
- [32:07]
Karen Kilgariff
With Article's 30 day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it. This peace of mind ensures you can invest in your home without hesitation. I have to tell you, we've talked about Article a lot, but the last thing I got from article was this little table that I've put in my front doorway and people compliment me on it every time they walk in my house. That article table is definitely everyone's favorite and it's my favorite too.
- [32:34]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh yeah, I get compliments on all my article pieces constantly. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.
- [32:42]
Karen Kilgariff
To claim, visit article.commur and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.
- [32:46]
Georgia Hardstark
That's a R T I c l e.com murder to get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Goodbye. Ready for a serial killer?
- [32:57]
Karen Kilgariff
I am real horrible guy.
- [32:59]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, here we go. Joseph Edward Duncan iii the third. The way I looked at you when I said that was born on February 25, 1963 in Tacoma, Washington. And I said that he looks like the actor Ben Mendelsohn who is the older brother from Bloodline. Remember that guy's got kind of a lisp and he's like a broad. He's like an actor and he's kind.
- [33:22]
Karen Kilgariff
Of, well, hot Bloodline. Was he the bad one? Yeah, he's the one everyone's worried about.
- [33:27]
Georgia Hardstark
Yes.
- [33:27]
Karen Kilgariff
That guy's amazing.
- [33:28]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, he looks like him. So like creepy skinny. Just so you have an idea.
- [33:31]
Karen Kilgariff
Okay.
- [33:32]
Georgia Hardstark
Like gangly.
- [33:33]
Karen Kilgariff
I like this describing what they look like.
- [33:35]
Georgia Hardstark
So in 1976, he's 15 years old and he commits his first recorded sex crime at 15. He rapes a 9 year old boy at gunpoint. Oh fuck yeah. I said I was going to raves at 15 and he was raping children at gunpoint. Fuck yeah.
- [33:51]
Karen Kilgariff
What happened to him? I don't know.
- [33:54]
Georgia Hardstark
And I can't find a lot of information on it. Okay, so clearly something horrible.
- [33:59]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [34:00]
Georgia Hardstark
Hit his fucking head.
- [34:01]
Karen Kilgariff
I mean, and then he went to a boys. I mean it's like they go to juvie, then they get raped. It's so terrible.
- [34:08]
Georgia Hardstark
And their mom, like I don't want to get as gross as I feel like it.
- [34:13]
Karen Kilgariff
I mean we really could say the worst things in the world and be right.
- [34:18]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay, the following. I want to say it, but it's so horrifying that like I say it.
- [34:24]
Karen Kilgariff
And then Stephen will bleep it.
- [34:25]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay. I read somewhere and maybe it was Ted Bundy's mom or some like some killer's mom that, like, when he. She would take him to go to the bathroom, she would pinch his penis as a kid.
- [34:37]
Karen Kilgariff
I think that's Ed Gein.
- [34:39]
Georgia Hardstark
Is that Ed Gein?
- [34:40]
Karen Kilgariff
So he wouldn't go.
- [34:41]
Georgia Hardstark
I don't know. To, like. If he didn't do it, she would get mad at him and pinch, and it's like, how do you not have a sexual fucking sadist on your hands?
- [34:49]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes.
- [34:49]
Georgia Hardstark
On your gross hands.
- [34:52]
Karen Kilgariff
On your filthy, disgusting hand. No, that's horrifying.
- [34:55]
Georgia Hardstark
On your penis. Pinching hands.
- [34:56]
Karen Kilgariff
I'm pretty sure that's Ed Gein's mother. She was out of her fucking body.
- [34:59]
Georgia Hardstark
That's right. Didn't he. He killed her, right?
- [35:02]
Karen Kilgariff
No, she died of natural causes. He kept her in the house and played with her body and then, like, wore her face in the moonlight. Pretty sure. Nipple belt.
- [35:13]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. So unbleep now.
- [35:14]
Karen Kilgariff
Okay.
- [35:15]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Nipple belt. Is that him?
- [35:16]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, that's our guy.
- [35:18]
Georgia Hardstark
Should we give a shout out to the girl who. Fuck, man. We're gonna need to post this. But, like, we got this, like, gift once, and it was a box, and there were these, like, this, like, crochet belt in it. And we were like, okay. All right. We are yarn. Crochet belt.
- [35:31]
Karen Kilgariff
Was that in Oakland? I think it was the Oakland show.
- [35:34]
Georgia Hardstark
No, no, it was sent here. Oh.
- [35:35]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, yeah.
- [35:36]
Georgia Hardstark
Because then you guys left and I went to take a photo of it. And as I'm looking through the lens, I realized that it's a crochet nipple belt. And it's like, every different color nipples, like, different races of nipples. And it's. And I just lost my mind in, like, joy of, like, how creative. Like, that's the description of Murderinos is like, our listeners is someone crocheted a fucking multicultural nipple belt.
- [36:03]
Karen Kilgariff
A nipple belt. Giving Ed Gein that shout out. Also, the fact that you had to have that realization alone, it's actually almost. Almost perfect because it's that, like, growing horror.
- [36:15]
Georgia Hardstark
It was horror.
- [36:16]
Karen Kilgariff
We were. We pulled that thing out. We're like, is it a. Is it a cat toy? Like, we were just, like, whipping it around. We had no idea.
- [36:22]
Georgia Hardstark
And then I. It just made me so happy when I realized how awful it was. In the cutest way.
- [36:29]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. Because you couldn't tell. You had to. It was like a Magic Eye poster. You really had to stare at it for a while to understand the hideous dolphins.
- [36:35]
Georgia Hardstark
I gotta post it. Okay. Anyway. The following year, Joseph Duncan is arrested for driving a stolen car. And that's when he's sentenced as a juvenile and Sent to Dislin's boys ranch in Tacoma, which you know, is probably a hellhole nightmare. He tells his therapist when he's there that he had bound and sexually assaulted six boys. And he also tells the therapist that he had raped around 13 younger boys by the time he was. Was 16.
- [37:07]
Karen Kilgariff
What the.
- [37:08]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [37:09]
Karen Kilgariff
So he's a serial rapist.
- [37:10]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Can you imagine losing count? He said around 13 boys. What does that therapist go home that night and drink?
- [37:18]
Karen Kilgariff
They're just like, now I become a sea captain. Yeah, I'm done with this.
- [37:23]
Georgia Hardstark
I'm gonna be a librarian now.
- [37:25]
Karen Kilgariff
To the lighthouse.
- [37:26]
Georgia Hardstark
He said goodbye. I'm gonna get a cat, you know.
- [37:29]
Karen Kilgariff
You know, maybe just a ton of cats. Like 30 cats. Yeah, just pet them.
- [37:33]
Georgia Hardstark
Just surround myself with cats. In 1980, still in Tacoma, he steals guns from a neighbor and abducts a 14 year old boy again. Rapes him at gunpoint. And for that he's sentenced to 20 years in prison. But he's released on parole in 94 after serving 14 years. Then he's arrested in 96 for marijuana use, but he's released on parole a few weeks later, but with new restrictions. And then in 97, he's around 34. He's arrested in Kansas and returned to prison after violating the terms of his parole. But he's released from prison three years later in July 2000, with time off for good old good behavior.
- [38:17]
Karen Kilgariff
Behavior for the serial rapists of children.
- [38:19]
Georgia Hardstark
Eat good in prison. Clean your fucking tray at the canteen at mess and mess hall and you can leave. So that. Okay, so in the summer of 2014, he's accused of molesting a six year old boy at a park in Detroit Lake, Minnesota. But he's not captured until March of 2005, and he's held on $15,000 bond. So there's a dude who's a businessman from Fargo who somehow Duncan had become acquainted with, who helped him post bail, huh? $15,000.
- [38:49]
Karen Kilgariff
I wonder what brand of pedophile he was. Allegedly.
- [38:52]
Georgia Hardstark
Allegedly businessman.
- [38:54]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [38:54]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. I mean, very allegedly. Yeah. And if he wasn't, he must fucking hate himself now.
- [39:00]
Karen Kilgariff
True. What if he was just trying to be like a good Samaritan?
- [39:03]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, he was a guy down on his luck. He says he didn't. He said he didn't molest a six year old boy at a park. So maybe he didn't. And now I'm gonna spend half of some people's salary a year getting out. Anyways, Duncan skips down.
- [39:19]
Karen Kilgariff
Okay?
- [39:19]
Georgia Hardstark
Two months later, in 2005, Kootenai County Idaho authorities discover the bodies of Brenda Groan, 40, her boyfriend and her 13 year old son. They're in their family home near Coeur d' Alene. And they've been bound and died of blunt force trauma to the head. Wow. And. Sorry. Brenda's two other children, Shasta, who's eight, and Dylan, who's nine. Oh my God, I hate this one so much.
- [39:50]
Karen Kilgariff
I know, it's so.
- [39:52]
Georgia Hardstark
I know. I almost didn't do it. Cause it's so bad. I almost some of the shit out. But I didn't know that this guy had so much background to him.
- [40:01]
Karen Kilgariff
I didn't. But it makes perfect sense. Of course he does. But. Oh my God.
- [40:06]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh my God. Yeah. It's just one of those stories that you can't fucking believe is real.
- [40:11]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes. I can still see the TV when I was watching the news and them showing the foot, the CCTV or whatever. Foot.
- [40:20]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay, yeah. Yes, I totally know what you're gonna say, but you're gonna give away the ending.
- [40:24]
Karen Kilgariff
Tell your story. I'm sorry.
- [40:25]
Georgia Hardstark
And then we'll talk about it. But I saw it too, and it.
- [40:28]
Karen Kilgariff
Just burned in my mind.
- [40:29]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, okay. So Shasta is eight, Dylan is nine. They're missing from the house. And the three others, the three older people are dead. And so they issue an Amber alert and they comb the area and they can't find the kids until six weeks later in July 2005. Shasta is recognized from her Amber Alert by a waitress, a manager and two customers at a Denny's. But then they're back in Coeur d'. Alene.
- [40:56]
Karen Kilgariff
Coeur d'?
- [40:57]
Georgia Hardstark
Alene? Is that how you say it?
- [40:58]
Karen Kilgariff
Coeur d'.
- [40:58]
Georgia Hardstark
Alene. The workers freak the fuck out, immediately phone the police, and they position themselves to prevent Duncan from leaving. Police officers arrive at the restaurant. They arrest Duncan without incident. And Shasta is taken to the hospital to be reunited with her dad. And so the footage we're talking about is them walking into the fucking Denny's. And she's got her arms crossed. She's like this little blonde girl. He's this creep who looks like John Mendelsohn, Ben Mendelsohn. And she's got her arms crossed and it's clear something is wrong.
- [41:28]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes.
- [41:29]
Georgia Hardstark
And you wonder, if you had seen that, would you have thought something was going on too?
- [41:33]
Karen Kilgariff
They must have, because that many. I remember reading about the waitress coming to the table and being like, I don't like the feel here.
- [41:40]
Georgia Hardstark
Are you okay?
- [41:41]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. What's going on? And I think she waited. Did he Go to the bathroom.
- [41:45]
Georgia Hardstark
Maybe.
- [41:45]
Karen Kilgariff
There was some moment she had with Shasta, I believe, before, where she was like, this isn't good. And she called the police.
- [41:53]
Georgia Hardstark
Well, what's so weird about it is. I have to wonder. They went back to the town they were from. So everyone in that town must have known intimately. What, both. What? Well, maybe they didn't know who he was yet, but what she looked like.
- [42:06]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes.
- [42:07]
Georgia Hardstark
So there was another sighting of them, you know, in another state that they later realized happened. And the woman who worked at the store, it was like a gas station, was like, I thought it might be her, but I wasn't here, so I didn't do anything about it. And it's like, well, someone in your town would have done something. And it also tells you, like, if you have a bad feeling about something, don't worry about hurting the dad's fucking feelings. If this child looks in distress, at.
- [42:34]
Karen Kilgariff
Least talk to one other person about it. If you don't, send up every red flag you ever feel with bad feelings. But there's definitely. If you're in tune enough, when you know something's wrong, you know it's wrong. And trust yourself.
- [42:49]
Georgia Hardstark
I've always thought that, like, if I see a kid who looks uncomfortable or in distress or not. Not feeling like they're where they're supposed to be, it's okay for me to go up to a kid and be like, hey, what's your name? You know, like, engage with the kid. You know, I'm not a fucking dude, so it's not creepy. But, like. Like, don't do that. If you're a guy, tell a woman to do that. But, you know, to be like, what's your name? And if you fucking sense something is wrong, like, you can just tell by body language with a kid. Yeah. Something isn't right.
- [43:19]
Karen Kilgariff
I mean, there should be.
- [43:21]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [43:21]
Karen Kilgariff
I wish there was some kind of, like, set process or keyword, you know, Whatever this. Yeah.
- [43:28]
Georgia Hardstark
Listen, write down everyone's license plate, every creepy dude's license plate at all times.
- [43:32]
Karen Kilgariff
Just take the time. You don't need to work. Quit your job. Get a spiral notebook, sit in front.
- [43:37]
Georgia Hardstark
Of a gas station and just write.
- [43:39]
Karen Kilgariff
Down license plates for a while.
- [43:41]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, done.
- [43:42]
Karen Kilgariff
But I adore that Denny's waitress. Oh, my God. I just. Because you know that, first of all, if they work, she's probably working the night shift. She's seen some Looney Tunes.
- [43:50]
Georgia Hardstark
Totally.
- [43:51]
Karen Kilgariff
You know, she doesn't call the cops every time she sees a scraggly. No, Mendelsohn type.
- [43:57]
Georgia Hardstark
No.
- [43:58]
Karen Kilgariff
We shouldn't involve that actor at all.
- [43:59]
Georgia Hardstark
Poor guy. He's like, wait, what the fuck?
- [44:01]
Karen Kilgariff
Fuck you guys.
- [44:02]
Georgia Hardstark
No, we just got him fucking cast on the Lifetime movie of this motherfucking case. You're welcome, Ben Mendelsohn.
- [44:08]
Karen Kilgariff
We're creating work.
- [44:09]
Georgia Hardstark
You're welcome. Ba ba ba da ba Hospital. All right, here's where it gets awful. So Shasta tells investigators that the night of her abduction, her mother had called her into the living room from the bedroom where she had been sleeping. And she saw Duncan like the. Duncan was like, call your kids in here right now. She sees Duncan wearing black gloves and holding a gun. He ties her mother's hands with nylon zip ties as well as the mother's fiance and her brother slayed. Then he takes this Dylan, Shasta and her little brother Dylan out of the house. They get inside his stolen rental car, and then Duncan goes back into the house. She hears her mother's fiance scream and then sees her injured older brother staggering away from the entrance to the home. But she didn't witness Duncan bludgeoning the three of them to death.
- [45:01]
Karen Kilgariff
He bludgeoned them to death.
- [45:03]
Georgia Hardstark
Tied them up and bludgeoned them.
- [45:05]
Karen Kilgariff
Fuck.
- [45:05]
Georgia Hardstark
When Shasta is asked where her brother Dylan is, she said, in heaven. There may be some evidence down in the Lolo Forest, because that's where we were.
- [45:14]
Karen Kilgariff
What does that mean?
- [45:16]
Georgia Hardstark
On July 4, 2005, Dylan's remains were discovered at a campsite near St. Regis, Montana. He'd been sexually assaulted and then killed with a shot in the head, after which his body had been burned. And Shasta fucking witnessed the whole thing.
- [45:30]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, God.
- [45:31]
Georgia Hardstark
I know. Duncan had also filmed Dylan final hours. And Duncan can be audibly heard in the video which was shown to the fucking jury. Can you fucking imagine how much therapy you'd need after that?
- [45:43]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, my God.
- [45:44]
Georgia Hardstark
Saying the devil likes to watch children suffer and cry. Chess is also repeatedly tortured and sexually assaulted. But supposedly he falls in love with her and decides to return her home, which is why they were back in her town. What a monster.
- [45:58]
Karen Kilgariff
Monster, yeah.
- [46:00]
Georgia Hardstark
Duncan later confesses that he had entered the home while the family slept with the express intention of murdering the parents and kidnapping the children. He claims he, quote, wanted. He wanted, quote, revenge against society for sending him to prison for 20 years for sexually assaulting a younger boy who was 14 years old when he himself was only 16 years old. So he wants revenge against society for being sent to prison for sexually assaulting.
- [46:24]
Karen Kilgariff
For being a rapist?
- [46:25]
Georgia Hardstark
Yep.
- [46:26]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, that's not clear thinking. No, it's not. Logical thinking.
- [46:29]
Georgia Hardstark
You're not taking responsibility for your actions. You're not fucking.
- [46:33]
Karen Kilgariff
You're not cool.
- [46:34]
Georgia Hardstark
You're Dougson.
- [46:37]
Karen Kilgariff
You're the devil.
- [46:39]
Georgia Hardstark
You're the devil. The devil's like, dude, calm down.
- [46:42]
Karen Kilgariff
Fuck. Can you skip to the part where he gets murdered in jail, please? Tell me.
- [46:46]
Georgia Hardstark
The devil's like, hey, man, I hurt. Fucking corrupt attorneys. Not. Yeah, sorry, corrupt attorneys.
- [46:55]
Karen Kilgariff
Sorry, corrupt attorneys.
- [46:57]
Georgia Hardstark
So he's subsequently charged with murdering Dylan, as well as the three other family members during his incarceration. Authorities are able to link Duncan to the disappearance of Anthony Michael Martinez, who was 10 years old when he went missing on 4-4-97 while he was playing with friends in the front yard of his home in Beaumont, California.
- [47:18]
Karen Kilgariff
Fuck.
- [47:18]
Georgia Hardstark
A man approached the group, asked for help finding a missing kitten while holding out a photo of a cat as well as a dollar bill. And two of the children ran away in fear. And the kidnapper pulls a knife out, grabs Anthony and flees in a white car with red pinstripes and no hubcaps. After two weeks search, Martinez's body is found nude and partially decomposed in Indio on 4-19-97. He had been sexually assaulted and bound with duct tape. A composite sketch is made of the suspect in a partial fingerprint, but the case goes cold. And then when he is incarcerated, Riverside authorities are able to match the partial fingerprint taken to Duncan. And so they officially announce his connection. He pleads guilty in 2011. The plea agreement carries a mandatory life sentence, although he won't get the death penalty for it in California because he pleads guilty. Duncan also confessed to two additional murders. Samijah White, 11, and her sister Carmen Cubias, 9, were last seen leaving a Seattle, Washington hotel to get cigarettes at a nearby restaurant for an older brother. Oh, no, I know babies. Police said that they don't. They don't know whether the girls ran away or victims of foul play at the time. Of course a fucking nine year old is running away. An 11 year old. Then on 7-6-96. That happened on 7-6-96. Then their remains were found on February 10, 1998 in Bothell, Washington, by a transient living in an abandoned barn. All three murders occurred while Duncan was on parole. Of those murders, Duncan has only been charged in the California case. In all, he's been convicted in Ohio for kidnapping and murder. Of the three victims for which he was giving six life sentences in federal court for kidnapping Shasta and Dylan, and for murdering Dylan, he was given three death sentences and three life sentences. And in the state of California, for kidnapping, murdering Anthony Martinez, for which he was given two life sentences.
- [49:37]
Karen Kilgariff
Is he still in jail?
- [49:39]
Georgia Hardstark
He's still in jail. He will be forever.
- [49:40]
Karen Kilgariff
Look.
- [49:41]
Georgia Hardstark
Want to see his picture?
- [49:42]
Karen Kilgariff
No. Oh, God. Stephen, you better watch that mustache because we are looking at a serious.
- [49:53]
Georgia Hardstark
I'm doubting the mustache. Yeah. Although Murderino's got me a mustache switchblade comb.
- [50:00]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, yeah. Okay.
- [50:02]
Georgia Hardstark
I can keep it in check.
- [50:02]
Karen Kilgariff
Okay, good. Yes, please do. That case, that little girl and the thing she went through, people. I feel like anybody that was conscious around that time paid attention to anything around that time also, because it was early enough so that there wasn't. Like. Nowadays, there's so much awful shit going on, as we know, everywhere, all the time. They're closing down nature, they're closing down schools, they're closing down protecting people who need protection. They're closing it all down.
- [50:35]
Georgia Hardstark
It.
- [50:35]
Karen Kilgariff
It's insanity. It happens every day. But there was a time, and I used to think about it a lot in the 90s where we had it, we were just like fat cats. There was nothing going on. It was before we got into that first war.
- [50:48]
Georgia Hardstark
Clinton. It was Clinton. No, he was.
- [50:50]
Karen Kilgariff
It was the Clinton days. It may have been later than that, but still, it was like. There wasn't. So when something like that came on the news, it was heart stopping. It was like, you've gotta be kidding me. How did this happen?
- [51:03]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. No, I mean, even in just the last couple years, we hear about every single one of them. Especially when you're into fucking true crime.
- [51:13]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [51:13]
Georgia Hardstark
I'm just constantly reading about these things and we're just constantly looking at. But back then, it was harder to find those things and the detail that you can get now in the photos. And so it was just this glimpse that you would get. Yeah.
- [51:28]
Karen Kilgariff
Horrible.
- [51:28]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [51:29]
Karen Kilgariff
God, that's. Yeah.
- [51:30]
Georgia Hardstark
Sorry. So that's.
- [51:31]
Karen Kilgariff
No, I mean, that's like. That was a big one. And it's interesting to know that that was a person that started doing that. That was an internally and intensely damaged individual. That, like, started pretty bad and it got way, way, way worse.
- [51:46]
Georgia Hardstark
Right. Somewhere along the way, you know, there could have been intervention or just something different could have happened.
- [51:55]
Karen Kilgariff
I think it's when eventually, hopefully, people start taking rape as a crime more seriously, as a real. As something that this isn't something to have your hands slapped and walked away from, and that a lot of people that do it, do it over and over again and intend to do it over and over again, That's a serious problem with a person.
- [52:18]
Georgia Hardstark
And it's not. I feel like there's a lot of people who just think rape is someone who wants to have sex really bad.
- [52:24]
Karen Kilgariff
Exactly.
- [52:24]
Georgia Hardstark
A rapist is someone who's just looking for sex when if you think about it in a way, which it actually is, which is this fucking violent, insane mind who needs to overpower and hurt and fucking ruin someone that is a criminal who should not be allowed on the streets after three years of good behavior in prison.
- [52:44]
Karen Kilgariff
And how often do they escalate? I mean, how many stories do we tell that start off with a person doing he raped a girl in his town and then da, da, da. And then he moved to this town and then suddenly he's murdering the people he's raping. I mean, it's the story every time. I feel like it's going to catch up slowly. As long as we don't keep well. I mean, I feel like the more people who talk about it, the more people who have conversations, but also the more like the Brock Turner.
- [53:12]
Georgia Hardstark
I was just thinking. That's what I was thinking about.
- [53:14]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. The swimmer from Sanford who got released because nobody wanted to mess up his swimming career. And he raped a girl so violently who I think he drugged. I don't know if that ever came out to be the truth, but that's the theory.
- [53:33]
Georgia Hardstark
She was incapacitated.
- [53:34]
Karen Kilgariff
She was incapacitated when she told the story. It's like she's at a party and all of a sudden she's waking up behind a dumpster. And the two men who witnessed it were so upset. The two men, grown men, were chasing him down. So upset of what they witnessed. That's not something that you go, okay, well, don't do this anymore. Who would do that in the first. It's like we have to start treating it and talking about it as the extremely violent criminal act that it is. And also stop fucking using the phrase sexual assault. I was thinking the same thing. Stop using euphemisms. If it's rape, it's rape.
- [54:09]
Georgia Hardstark
Some people say, like, you know, sexual assault, it's not sex. Don't use the word sex when it's just rape. Unconsexual, non consensual sex. Yeah, non consensual sex is. Sex is. Rape is rape.
- [54:20]
Karen Kilgariff
That's right.
- [54:20]
Georgia Hardstark
Sex is between two consenting adults. So don't fucking call it that.
- [54:25]
Karen Kilgariff
Also, date rape is rape.
- [54:26]
Georgia Hardstark
Date rape is rape. That doesn't mean it's just nice and chill rape.
- [54:30]
Karen Kilgariff
Nope, it's rape. Also, there's. It wasn't a pre agreement that. That Agreement got broken. Which is what date rape rape alludes to. That's.
- [54:38]
Georgia Hardstark
He went on a date. What did you.
- [54:40]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [54:40]
Georgia Hardstark
Someone got upset. No, this person is a rapist.
- [54:43]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [54:44]
Georgia Hardstark
You don't rape people unless you're a rapist.
- [54:46]
Karen Kilgariff
Don't rape people. Oh, man. I mean, I think we're coming down pretty hard on an anti rape stance.
- [54:54]
Georgia Hardstark
I think it's clear that we're anti.
- [54:57]
Karen Kilgariff
Rape and we're saying it to our listeners as if we had to convince them of any.
- [55:02]
Georgia Hardstark
You guys, stop it.
- [55:05]
Karen Kilgariff
Stop it.
- [55:06]
Georgia Hardstark
We're like, yes to fucking crocheted nipple belts. No to rape. Just know where we stand.
- [55:11]
Karen Kilgariff
We're gonna tell you how it works.
- [55:13]
Georgia Hardstark
There's no gray area.
- [55:15]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, man.
- [55:16]
Georgia Hardstark
You ready for yours?
- [55:17]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. This is gonna be a bit of a left turn.
- [55:20]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay.
- [55:20]
Karen Kilgariff
I'm not gonna say it's fun. It's.
- [55:24]
Georgia Hardstark
It's an upturn. It's an uptick from.
- [55:27]
Karen Kilgariff
It's not the most upsetting for me that really. And I'm not. I swear, I'm not criticizing you. It really. That's the one that get where I almost try not to think about it because it's just awful.
- [55:38]
Georgia Hardstark
I almost didn't do it. But I'm like.
- [55:40]
Karen Kilgariff
But there are people. I mean that's. These are the stories people. When you talk about them. It's important.
- [55:45]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [55:46]
Karen Kilgariff
Also because she's a survivor and she.
- [55:47]
Georgia Hardstark
Survived and she has a story to tell, which I think she's now coming out and telling it.
- [55:51]
Karen Kilgariff
I bet she is.
- [55:52]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [55:53]
Karen Kilgariff
I bet.
- [55:53]
Georgia Hardstark
What a horror.
- [55:54]
Karen Kilgariff
I bet she's doing amazing work. And that's.
- [55:57]
Georgia Hardstark
You know, there's no. I mean, just to think of the nightmare she went through.
- [56:01]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [56:02]
Georgia Hardstark
Is as a survivor, she has to be a very strong person to be able to move forward. Not on. But move forward in her life.
- [56:11]
Karen Kilgariff
Yep. Okay, we're back. George, do you have any updates on this story?
- [56:19]
Georgia Hardstark
I do have some updates. What an awful fucking story. And I hate to keep bringing up the book. Well, I actually love to keep bringing up the book. Murderland. But this dude grew up in the. The perfect serial killer area.
- [56:31]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [56:31]
Georgia Hardstark
You know that Pacific northwest in the 70s, lead filled skies.
- [56:36]
Karen Kilgariff
I just bought a hard copy of that book because I was like, it's going to take too long. It's okay. It's okay. Because I want to support it anyway. And I saw it. I was at Bookstar and I saw it and I was just like, oh, I have to get this myself.
- [56:47]
Georgia Hardstark
I'm like jealous that you got to start it again. It's so fucking incredible. Okay, so I have some updates. In 2021, Joseph Edward Duncan III died at the age of 58 while still on death row. He had previously been diagnosed with terminal brain. Answer. Anthony Edwards father Ernesto made a statement saying, quote, while I would have liked to witness his execution, knowing that he is now standing before God, being held accountable for what he has done, what he did to my son and the horrible crimes he committed to others, that's the real justice. End quote. And then Shasta Groen wrote a book. Incredible. Called out of the A Girl, A Killer, and a Lifelong Struggle to Find the Way Home, that was published very recently in 2025 and co authored with true crime writer Greg Olson. We need to get that.
- [57:34]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, I mean, everybody should go buy Shasta Groan's book for sure.
- [57:38]
Georgia Hardstark
Definitely. Out of the woods, it's called. And in it, Shasta is open with her long healing journey and tells the story of her life both before and after she lost her family and survived Duncan's violence. I've seen her on TV and she is just this dynamic, incredible, awe inspiring woman. Wow. Yeah. That was Mimi. Mimi said.
- [57:59]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, it sounded like Mimi was making fun of me. I'm like, I'm wow. And she's like, wow. Okay, I do have a corrections corner on your story because I mentioned the basically the detail that Ed Gein's mother pinched his penis and that was a topic in the original episode. It turns out that's like an urban myth and it's like, like some. There's no. Basically there's no proof. So that's just me kind of pushing along another urban myth that I shouldn't have done.
- [58:32]
Georgia Hardstark
Thank God you cleared that horrible detail.
- [58:35]
Karen Kilgariff
Up 29 years later. Please don't think poorly of Ed Gein's.
- [58:40]
Georgia Hardstark
Mother in this fucking podcast of horrible details. There's one we can check right off that list.
- [58:46]
Karen Kilgariff
Get rid of it. Oh, yeah.
- [58:48]
Georgia Hardstark
All right, let's listen to Karen's story about Fred Newlander. Your pet is your best friend, your therapist, and your unpaid intern.
- [59:01]
Karen Kilgariff
So don't just feed them, fuel them with Hills Pet nutrition.
- [59:05]
Georgia Hardstark
Hills is backed by science to support whole body health in dogs and cats.
- [59:09]
Karen Kilgariff
As a leader in science led nutrition, Hills supports lean muscles which are essential for everything your pet does does. Whether that's the Zoomies Squirrel Patrol or occasionally knocking something over. Hill's Science led Nutrition helps you give more love than humanly possible because you're only human. There's Hills.
- [59:24]
Georgia Hardstark
Science does more. Find the right food@hillspet.com iheart goodbye.
- [59:30]
Karen Kilgariff
The revolutionary Cerave Balancing Air Foam Cleanser is a powerful gentle cleanser with new glycolysine technology that traps oil like a magnet.
- [59:39]
Georgia Hardstark
With three essential ceramides, it locks in hydration and brings the balance your skin needs.
- [59:44]
Karen Kilgariff
It provides 8 hour oil control plus 24 hour hydration. CeraVe balancing air foam from the number one dermatologist recommended skincare brand new Cerave.
- [59:53]
Georgia Hardstark
Balancing Air Foam Cleanser from the number one dermatologist Recommended Skincare brand Cerave has a cleanser for every skin type. Find yours.
- [60:00]
Karen Kilgariff
Goodbye. Now streaming on Paramount plus Hunted by hackers, stalked by assassins, and wanted by international police, Tony and Ziva are on the run and getting some action.
- [60:10]
Georgia Hardstark
Car chases, surprise weddings, killer drones, undercover operations, robot dogs, daring heists, prison breaks. Nothing will keep this couple from taking down an international conspiracy and clearing their names.
- [60:22]
Karen Kilgariff
Good thing espionage is their love language.
- [60:24]
Georgia Hardstark
Get ready for the ultimate romantic escape with the premiere of Tony and Ziva now streaming on Paramount + goodbye.
- [60:33]
Karen Kilgariff
All right, I'm going to talk to you about a man named Rabbi Fred Newlander. Do you know him?
- [60:39]
Georgia Hardstark
No.
- [60:39]
Karen Kilgariff
Okay.
- [60:39]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay.
- [60:40]
Karen Kilgariff
So I got most of this from an old City Confidential, which, if you haven't seen City Confidential, the oldest ones were narrated by a man, a great actor named Paul Winfield. And Paul Winfield narrated the show like he had a margarita in one hand. He is so chilled out. It feels like when he tells you the story and the writing is so hilariously brilliant. They tell you the story. So they. It's called City Confidential. So they tell you all about the city first. So they're like.
- [61:14]
Georgia Hardstark
It was a bedroom community.
- [61:16]
Karen Kilgariff
Exactly. Cherry Hill, Pennsylvania was a sleepy book. And then it becomes. They do it thematically. So since. Because this was about the rabbi, it was all these biblical references. It was like. But evil did live here. And it's like. And he's kind of talking like that. He's a little.
- [61:34]
Georgia Hardstark
It's like innuendo. Y. But such obvious innuendos that it's not. I love that show.
- [61:40]
Karen Kilgariff
It's the best show. I used to watch it so much.
- [61:43]
Georgia Hardstark
I don't know why Forensic Files is on constantly and that show isn't. Cause Forensic Files is like, adorable. Cause it's so dated, you know?
- [61:51]
Karen Kilgariff
It's adorable.
- [61:53]
Georgia Hardstark
City Confidential is legitimately good.
- [61:54]
Karen Kilgariff
City Confidential is a beautifully put together, beautifully produced show.
- [61:59]
Georgia Hardstark
Good stories, too.
- [61:59]
Karen Kilgariff
Great stories. They get great people. Here's what I love. The hometown reporters, because they're the ones that know the whole story.
- [62:06]
Georgia Hardstark
Angels. And this is their big fucking moment to be on tv.
- [62:09]
Karen Kilgariff
And to be like, I know. I wrote about. He called me.
- [62:13]
Georgia Hardstark
I'm the one.
- [62:14]
Karen Kilgariff
I'm the one. It's me, Pam.
- [62:16]
Georgia Hardstark
Listen, I went to fucking Phoenix University journalism school, and I'm finally fucking getting my comeuppance.
- [62:22]
Karen Kilgariff
But a lot of these people, like, it's true. It's like this one woman who's a reporter for. It was like the Cherry Hill Gazette or whatever the hell. I should have written it down. It's on YouTube. Everybody go watch it. It's so good. But these are journalists. These are people who are like, this is what the town's like. This is what we're used to. This is. It's so cool. Because they give you the sense of what is going on.
- [62:44]
Georgia Hardstark
And they're always such. Like, they're such earnest people. Like, you trust them.
- [62:49]
Karen Kilgariff
They know what they're talking about. It's not this. This bullshit over here where it's like. I think it was in Pennsylvania. They're like, they know for a fact everything they say is a fact.
- [63:00]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, you mean over here, like. Like sitting on the couch right now?
- [63:03]
Karen Kilgariff
I was pointing to myself.
- [63:04]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, yeah. I thought you meant like the LA Times. I was like, oh, no, because we're.
- [63:08]
Karen Kilgariff
In la, like the West Coast.
- [63:09]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, I get it.
- [63:10]
Karen Kilgariff
No, no. Okay, so, yes, if you want. If you want to get the full story, the City Confidential's on there. Also, just. I do recommend getting onto a YouTube, like, enter some true crime something. Because they just have a million old shows on YouTube that are true crime stories that just. They don't. This one doesn't have the title City Confidential. It just says Fred Newlander on it. Oh, yeah. Then you click it. So I think somebody was avoiding getting in trouble.
- [63:39]
Georgia Hardstark
Getting in trouble.
- [63:40]
Karen Kilgariff
So you can still watch them.
- [63:42]
Georgia Hardstark
Smart.
- [63:42]
Karen Kilgariff
Anyhow, please do support City Confidential. It doesn't exist anymore. Okay, so Cherry Hill, Pennsylvania, is a suburb of Philly. It's middle, upper middle class. And it might sound familiar to you because it had the first indoor mall on the east coast, the Cherry Hill Mall.
- [64:02]
Georgia Hardstark
Okay. No.
- [64:03]
Karen Kilgariff
Okay, so that's exciting for them.
- [64:07]
Georgia Hardstark
I'm happy for them.
- [64:07]
Karen Kilgariff
Right. I mean, it used to be, like. Because the Highway 70 used to go from Philly to Cherry Hill. And so basically that road was always full of traffic because people lived. Worked in the city and lived in the suburbs. And so they started building, you know, stores along the road because everyone was always on the road.
- [64:30]
Georgia Hardstark
That's smart.
- [64:30]
Karen Kilgariff
That's what led to the first indoor mall.
- [64:33]
Georgia Hardstark
I never thought of that being like, there's a First one, yeah. It's just like, then they were.
- [64:37]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. And then people would just go, like, the whole city was kind of built around and the community was in the mall. One of these reporters said, like, if you want to know the community or see what the community is like, you go to the mall.
- [64:49]
Georgia Hardstark
Wow.
- [64:50]
Karen Kilgariff
I love them all.
- [64:51]
Georgia Hardstark
Did my dude.
- [64:53]
Karen Kilgariff
Dude.
- [64:53]
Georgia Hardstark
Yep.
- [64:54]
Karen Kilgariff
So, okay, so there's like 70,000 residents and probably a third of them are Jewish. So there's, you know, these reporters talk a lot about how much there really is a lot of diversity in this town. And so one of the more popular temples in Cherry Hill is called Umkor Shalom, and it was founded by Rabbi fred Newlander in 1974. He was an assistant rabbi at a different temple, but he didn't want to be the assistant anymore. And he felt like his take on what he wanted to talk about and preach about. Please correct me on any of these. I'm going to use a lot of Catholic wording for very strictly Jewish things, and I apologize in advance, but he basically wanted his congregation and his leadership to be a little bit more updated and a little different. So he starts this new temple and by the mid-90s, he's got 4,000 people going to it. So it's like one of the bigger ones in the city. He had met his wife Carol in college. She was the daughter of a very well to do garment businessman, I guess, garment manufacturer, like a garment textile guy, you know, textiles and clothing merchant, I guess. But she was rich. Like, she grew up in a mansion in Long Is island and with butlers and stuff.
- [66:22]
Georgia Hardstark
Holy.
- [66:22]
Karen Kilgariff
I love that part when they. They talk about like a rolling. A rolling lawn down to the ocean or whatever.
- [66:27]
Georgia Hardstark
Like, thought of having butlers, just like hanging out makes me. I would feel guilty. So uncomfortable.
- [66:33]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. Where like someone silent standing there, ready to do your bidding, pointing at Steven.
- [66:39]
Georgia Hardstark
I want to point out that. Yeah, I would hate it to have like a helper.
- [66:42]
Karen Kilgariff
Just someone that just does whatever you ask them to and you don't. You only pay them every five months.
- [66:48]
Georgia Hardstark
Touche. I stand corrected.
- [66:53]
Karen Kilgariff
I meant that about myself as much as.
- [66:54]
Georgia Hardstark
No, yeah, you were correct.
- [66:57]
Karen Kilgariff
Steven's crying.
- [66:59]
Georgia Hardstark
Stephen, get back in your hole.
- [67:01]
Karen Kilgariff
Steven, put your tuxedo back on. Okay. So while at the same time as Fred is starting up basically his own religious community in Cherry Hill, Carol notices that with all the festivities that go on and the religious holidays and stuff like that, there's no kosher bakery. So she opens Cherry Hill's first kosher bakery. It was called the Classic Cake company. And she starts immediately, right? She sees a niche that needs to be filled, she does it.
- [67:35]
Georgia Hardstark
She's not gonna fucking rest on her dad's textile florals.
- [67:39]
Karen Kilgariff
Fuck no. And she's not gonna rest on her rabbi husband's good times.
- [67:43]
Georgia Hardstark
No.
- [67:44]
Karen Kilgariff
She's gonna be like, excuse me, I went to a party and yet again, I couldn't get a slice of kosher cake.
- [67:49]
Georgia Hardstark
Can I please.
- [67:51]
Karen Kilgariff
God damn it.
- [67:52]
Georgia Hardstark
Is there any buttercream in this fucking.
- [67:55]
Karen Kilgariff
That hasn't touched bacon? That's kosher, right? When it doesn't get bacon rubbed on it, no. So she starts this cake company and it does great. So by the early 90s, the new landers are killing it. Their son Matthew is a medical student, but he's also a part time emt. Their daughter Rebecca lived in Philly. I don't know anything about her, but I want to say great things. I mean, she lived in Philly, she got out of Cherry Hill, she made it.
- [68:28]
Georgia Hardstark
She was no schlump.
- [68:30]
Karen Kilgariff
No. No way. And she still got along with her family because her and her mom talked on the phone all the time. So the only worry was that Carol at the classic cake company made the take was between 5 and 20 grand a day.
- [68:45]
Georgia Hardstark
Holy shit.
- [68:46]
Karen Kilgariff
So it's a middle aged mom type who's driving home with a shit ton of cash.
- [68:52]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh no.
- [68:53]
Karen Kilgariff
Every night. So Fred starts to be concerned about that and he tells Carol, I'm gonna look into this. Cause I think we need better security for the house and for you. And we need to kind of like adjust this.
- [69:07]
Georgia Hardstark
So.
- [69:09]
Karen Kilgariff
Fred says he knows a guy. So what had happened was in 1992, a man named Len Janoff had come to the temple because someone in his AA group recommended that he go speak to Rabbi Fred Neumeyer. Because at the time, Len had just gotten divorced. He was totally brave. He was a raging alcoholic, doing very, like really bad in general. And also people say he was kind of a bit of a liar. So he had kind of a. He had some personality issues and some work to do. And when he went to go talk to Rabbi Fred Neumeyer, they got along great. And Fred said, come to this temple, you don't have to worry about paying anything. Like, we want you here, you're welcome. And he really made a place for him there. And they both smoked at the time. So they would sneak off and smoke together because they think rabbis might. Maybe they're not supposed to smoke or it's frowned upon or something. He would sneak away with his friend and they would Go smoke and talk. And turned out that Len had a lot to say. He had been a Vietnam vet. And then according to him, he worked for the CIA and the FBI and Special Forces.
- [70:27]
Georgia Hardstark
If you actually have done that, you don't say it.
- [70:29]
Karen Kilgariff
I feel like that's exactly what someone said in City Confidential.
- [70:31]
Georgia Hardstark
Shut up.
- [70:32]
Karen Kilgariff
Swear to God. I think his own friend. There was another guy that was this classic, like. Cause this thing was shot in what, 1995 probably. So there's some amazing, like amazing colored blazers and there's some frosted tips. But his friend said the exact same thing. People who worked in the CIA do not tell you stories about when they used to work at the CIA. But part of Len's reason for drinking so much is cause he'd been in the shit and seen the shit. Okay, so no one's gonna say any. Okay. So on Tuesday nights, Carol at the Classic Cake company, it's her manager's meeting night. And so she stays at work until 8. So that night, November 1, 1994, is a Tuesday. And Fred comes home at 6 o' clock and he brings a pizza home for him and Matthew to have for dinner because they know Carol's not going to be there. And then Matthew goes for his shift being an EMT at 6:30.
- [71:35]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh no, do I know where this is going?
- [71:38]
Karen Kilgariff
You might. So then Fred goes back to the temple because Carol's not gonna be there. So he goes back to the temple, he pops in on the assistant rabbi's Judaism class, and he pops in on the choir practice, and he's kind of hanging out at the temple.
- [71:56]
Georgia Hardstark
I don't know what he's doing.
- [71:59]
Karen Kilgariff
When Carol comes home at 8 o', clock, no one's home. And she's talking on the phone to her daughter Rebecca. And while they're on the phone, she says to her daughter, oh, the bathroom, the bathroom man's here again. And she's like, what are you talking about? And then Carol explains that a man had dropped by to deliver something for Fred, the father. And instead of just handing the thing to her, he asked if he could use the bathroom. And so he came in and used the bathroom.
- [72:29]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, no.
- [72:30]
Karen Kilgariff
And Rebecca was very upset about that and was like, I don't like that at all. Don't let him in. And she said, no, he's fine. He's this schlubby guy who is kind of like, you know, he has nothing to worry about, basically, is what she said. And then they get off the phone and she says he's a friend of Your father's. So don't worry about it. At 9:20, Fred comes home from the temple and no one's home. And then when he gets inside the doorway more, he looks in the living room and it's white carpet, white furniture, like almost a completely white room. And it's covered in blood. Fuck, there's blood everywhere. And Carol is laying in the middle of the living room dead. He calls 911. And when he calls 911, he sounds really upset and flustered. And at one point he says to the dispatcher or the 911 operator, should I touch her? He asks that. So, and I thought about that after because I was like, well, that's kind of a weird point to make. And then I thought, well, that's that thing where if I walked into this apartment to come and record and you were laying in the middle of the floor right bloody, I would run over to you and be like, george, are you okay? And touch you in a bunch without asking anybody about it.
- [73:51]
Georgia Hardstark
You wouldn't think to yourself, oh, I to don't want. Want to contaminate this crime scene. Right?
- [73:54]
Karen Kilgariff
Or just, I'm going to hang back and hopefully she's okay. So that. That was noted, basically.
- [74:03]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [74:04]
Karen Kilgariff
And then I thought about that because so his. So as he's on the phone call, he says, you have to tell the. You have to tell them my son is an emt. They can't send him here. And so like the word goes out, but it didn't matter because he was like the third group that arrived. So that's your address? Yes, but he wasn't on that call or that run or whatever. So by the time he did arrive, there had already been police and another ambulance or whatever. He tries to run inside. He has to get physically restrained from running inside. And then he looks over and sees his father just standing in the driveway, just kind of staring. Oh my God. And he notices that there's no blood on his father at all. There's not a drop of anything on his father. And then he asks, and the rabbi didn't say last rites over her. He didn't say the prayer. Like there are things they were saying that they would assume he would have done as a rabbi with a dead person. Now, who knows? Cause it's his wife. So he might have just been in total shock and like wandered out.
- [75:14]
Georgia Hardstark
Fair.
- [75:15]
Karen Kilgariff
But when police were exiting the house, coming in and out, he never asked anybody what's going on, what happened to her? He never said a word. He was just standing there Very dispassionately staring.
- [75:27]
Georgia Hardstark
And if you found me and I was stabbed to death, another thing that would go through your mind is, is the killer still in the house?
- [75:33]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes.
- [75:34]
Georgia Hardstark
You know what I mean?
- [75:35]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [75:35]
Georgia Hardstark
Like to not think that.
- [75:37]
Karen Kilgariff
How long ago did this happen?
- [75:38]
Georgia Hardstark
Right.
- [75:39]
Karen Kilgariff
Who did it? What is happening?
- [75:40]
Georgia Hardstark
Who did this? Why are they still here? Yeah, I think that's a natural fucking fuck.
- [75:45]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes. That'd be the scariest thing.
- [75:46]
Georgia Hardstark
So he doesn't even think about that. No, that's bad. Like, that's a bad sign.
- [75:50]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes. And also, I did hear a bit of his 911 call. And it's just. I just hate so much when it sounds like people are fake. I hate fake crying a lot.
- [75:59]
Georgia Hardstark
What does he sound like?
- [76:01]
Karen Kilgariff
He's just like. He's like a lot of that, but it's like, I just love good acting and it offends me when people are like, oh, this'll pass. Yeah, this is how people act when they're upset.
- [76:12]
Georgia Hardstark
Everyone else is so stupid and I'm so smart that they'll never know that this is fucking fake.
- [76:16]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, of course they'll buy it.
- [76:18]
Georgia Hardstark
So good.
- [76:18]
Karen Kilgariff
I'm so good and so believable on these decisions I'm about to make about what a real person was, emotions was.
- [76:26]
Georgia Hardstark
Who wouldn't murder his wife.
- [76:27]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [76:28]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God.
- [76:29]
Karen Kilgariff
Okay, okay. It says, go to paper. Okay. So, of course, immediately he becomes the focus of the investigation because he's the husband and because these weird, weird behavior, they start talking to. But his alibi is airtight. As we know the choir teacher psalm and the assistant rabbi psalm.
- [76:53]
Georgia Hardstark
He asked everyone what time it was.
- [76:55]
Karen Kilgariff
For real and to the point where the cops are immediate. Like, that's a super airtight allegory we don't buy for one second.
- [77:01]
Georgia Hardstark
Well.
- [77:01]
Karen Kilgariff
And they start asking people at the temple. It was the first time in four years he'd ever gone into the Judaism class.
- [77:09]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God.
- [77:10]
Karen Kilgariff
And. And the choir leader was a known to hate interruptions. So no one went into choir practice while it was going on. And Fred himself knew that about hearing.
- [77:22]
Georgia Hardstark
Man do some due diligence and then come in like once in the fucking weeks beforehand. I'm telling you how to fucking kill someone.
- [77:28]
Karen Kilgariff
But it's the thing of if you don't know instinctually how natural people act, how people act in a natural way, you're not gonna be able to recreate it. If you're a sociopath like this guy.
- [77:40]
Georgia Hardstark
And you think everyone fucking thinks you're on the level.
- [77:43]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. You think everyone's dumb. And also, clearly he's got a bit of a God complex if he's like, I need my own temple.
- [77:49]
Georgia Hardstark
Whatever.
- [77:50]
Karen Kilgariff
So, okay. Then they go to the phone records and they realize that the rabbi had been calling this one number and they go and look at it and it's a local Philadelphia radio talk show host. And yes. And we'd have to find her name. Shit.
- [78:16]
Georgia Hardstark
Sorry, this is a weird turn. I wasn't expecting.
- [78:19]
Karen Kilgariff
Did you not see this one coming? Oh, I didn't see that we were gonna go into talk radio.
- [78:23]
Georgia Hardstark
No, I did not. Yeah, we did talk about that in podcasting.
- [78:29]
Karen Kilgariff
Neither did anybody else, especially the fans of Elaine's. Sorcini's a Philadelphia radio. She's a radio personality. So basically they do all the math. They see that he called her. He called her the day after the murder and said, I really, like, hang in there, I really want to be with you.
- [78:53]
Georgia Hardstark
Do they fucking?
- [78:55]
Karen Kilgariff
What's that?
- [78:55]
Georgia Hardstark
They fucking.
- [78:56]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, they straight up fucking. Oh, yeah, yeah. So they find out all these calls are going to her house. This is a woman who the reason they met is because two years earlier, he presided over her husband's funeral. Uh huh, girl.
- [79:12]
Georgia Hardstark
Uh, yes, that's right.
- [79:14]
Karen Kilgariff
And they had started having an affair, they say roughly two months later.
- [79:23]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, no.
- [79:24]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes.
- [79:24]
Georgia Hardstark
Body ain't cold.
- [79:25]
Karen Kilgariff
He moved right in.
- [79:28]
Georgia Hardstark
Yep. You don't fuck someone whose husband you said the Kaddish for. You know what I mean?
- [79:32]
Karen Kilgariff
Right.
- [79:33]
Georgia Hardstark
That's what I always say. That's what you. That's your. You have that tattooed.
- [79:37]
Karen Kilgariff
Right? Okay, so. Oh, they. I'm sorry, I just got up to my own piece of paper. They began. She admitted that they started having an affair ten days after her husband's funeral. Ten days.
- [79:52]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, no.
- [79:53]
Karen Kilgariff
After her husband's funeral.
- [79:55]
Georgia Hardstark
No.
- [79:55]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes. And then two years later, she gives him an ultimatum. She says, I don't wanna sneak around with you anymore. You say you wanna leave your wife. Leave your wife. And if you don't do it by the end of 1994, this is over and I'm starting afresh in the new year.
- [80:13]
Georgia Hardstark
And he's like, how about instead?
- [80:16]
Karen Kilgariff
Well, so that was in October of 1994, and the murder happened in November.
- [80:23]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh my God.
- [80:24]
Karen Kilgariff
He's told her, I'll have this all sorted out by your birthday, which was in December.
- [80:29]
Georgia Hardstark
And she's like, you know, I mean, break up. By sorted out, do you mean you're going to end their relation? No, no, that's kind of what I mean.
- [80:36]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, you mean a horrible murder.
- [80:37]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [80:38]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, well, that's not what I was talking about at all. So. Yeah, so he was making a lot of calls to her. So the police, all the evidence they have is circumstantial. So even though everyone's like that stuff about his airtight alibi, it's still an airtight alibi. Just like everyone's like, this stinks to high heaven. But it doesn't matter. They can't get any hard evidence until the cops tell Elaine that Fred Newlander was also having affairs with three other women at the temple besides Elaine.
- [81:15]
Georgia Hardstark
Her a. Yeah.
- [81:16]
Karen Kilgariff
And that's when she's like, guess what? Hey, how about, guess what, everybody? And she spills it then.
- [81:22]
Georgia Hardstark
What a shitty thing though, for her not to. If she hadn't known that, she would have never told anyone. You know what I mean?
- [81:27]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, I mean, I bet she needed to believe that he didn't do it or that it was all like. I'm sure he was telling her. Of course, the husband suspected. We're always suspected. Hang in there with me.
- [81:39]
Georgia Hardstark
Well, she wasn't a murderino then, because any murderino would have been. And, like, get the fuck away from me.
- [81:43]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, that's. He also told her, I told you to trust me. When God closes a door, he opens a window.
- [81:52]
Georgia Hardstark
You're like, what, did you fart or something? Get the fuck out of here.
- [81:54]
Karen Kilgariff
It's like, you're the hackiest rabbi I've ever heard. You're supposed to be really eloquent and have, like, good sayings.
- [82:00]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, that's Brent.
- [82:02]
Karen Kilgariff
A Serious Man.
- [82:04]
Georgia Hardstark
It's a good movie.
- [82:05]
Karen Kilgariff
So In May of 2000, Len Janoff goes to a local. Oh, no, sorry. That it was.
- [82:12]
Georgia Hardstark
But you were telling me what she was like. So she finds out that Elaine.
- [82:16]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, so Elaine finds out that the cops are like, he's having all these other affairs, and she's like, oh, fine. Then, blah, blah, blah, and da, da, da. None of this is as I believe it to be. But that wasn't until way later I believe it was. She finally tells them that in 1996. But that's still circumstantial. That could be like the lady that's mad because. Because the guy didn't pick her.
- [82:41]
Georgia Hardstark
Totally.
- [82:42]
Karen Kilgariff
Whatever. When it finally cracks is when Len Janoff goes to a local reporter and starts telling her about how he was told that. Basically, Rabbi Fred Newlander, who. Sorry. In the meantime, Len Janoff becomes the rabbi's spokesperson. So anytime there's news cameras, anytime there's reporters on the front lawn, the rabbi sends Len Janov out to talk to them. And this guy is just a bullshitter.
- [83:16]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God.
- [83:16]
Karen Kilgariff
And apparently he was. He would call people, he would give quotes. He was like way out in front of the story. And he loved to hand out a private investigation business card and security business card. The whole thing made me think of this Jerry Papini guy that's like, oh, I'll handle this. I'll be the mouthpiece. Like, what are you doing here?
- [83:42]
Georgia Hardstark
Another fucking big headed sociopath.
- [83:45]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes. And so they work on that guy for a long time. He eventually tells a reporter that the Rabbi hired him for $30,000 to kill his wife. He spills it.
- [83:58]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God.
- [83:59]
Karen Kilgariff
And so he tells the story that him and his friend Paul Daniels, who He met in AA, and Paul Daniels was 20 years old when this happened. And every picture of him, he looks dumber than the last picture. Like, every picture, his mouth is open and it looks like he can't believe he's where he is. It's super sad. And I know it's wrong to be like, oh, that poor. That murdered this woman.
- [84:25]
Georgia Hardstark
Right.
- [84:25]
Karen Kilgariff
But it really looks like he got looped into something that he kind of didn't know was going on.
- [84:30]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. He could be talked into anything.
- [84:31]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes. But I mean, erase that because still what happened was they knock on the door that night at the house. Carol answers the door, recognizes the bathroom man, and they come in. She's. What happens. She led them into the house. So for whatever they said to her, the door, she was like, come on in, you guys. She turns around. Well. Cause she trusts him because it's her husband's friend.
- [84:57]
Georgia Hardstark
I know.
- [84:57]
Karen Kilgariff
And she turns around to walk in and one of them hits her on the back of the head with a pipe. And she goes down. They crack her head open. She goes down in the living room, and the Paul Daniels guy says he did the one hit. And then Len Janoff went in and just beat her to death with this pipe. That's the story that guy gives. And in the City Confidential, this one reporter describes it where it's like it's a white living room and there's just blood everywhere. It's so disturbingly awful because it's like you kill a person. It's just like, yeah, there's blood spatter, there's whatever. It's everywhere.
- [85:40]
Georgia Hardstark
The word bludgeon, such a horrible word.
- [85:43]
Karen Kilgariff
But terrible, violent death.
- [85:44]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [85:45]
Karen Kilgariff
So. So finally. So finally the cops get enough evidence so they can indict Fred Neumeyer for this Newlander. Sorry for this death so they go, they have the first trial, and in that trial, all this stuff comes out. So it's just like all this gossip from the temple, all the stuff. It's just all. They had no idea that their rabbi was this much of a douchebag. And it all comes out in trial, and they find out that the daughter, you know, the mother had just said to the daughter, it's the bathroom man. Then they find out that Len Janoff had been there the week before on the Tuesday night when she was supposed to be there by herself. But he got cold feet because when he went in, Fred Newlander told him it needed to look like a robbery. They needed to be stealing that cake company money. But when he walked in, he couldn't see her purse. And since he knew he wouldn't be able to make it look like a robbery, he got cold feet, asked to use the bathroom, and then left.
- [86:48]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God. So that's why he's the bathroom man.
- [86:50]
Karen Kilgariff
That's why he's the bathroom man. He was there. He was supposed to kill her that night and basically punked out.
- [86:56]
Georgia Hardstark
Holy shit.
- [86:58]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. So they. They get it all in trial, and the jury's deadlocked, and it's declared a mistrial.
- [87:09]
Georgia Hardstark
No, you.
- [87:10]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes. And this is five years, more than five years of police work and lawyers work and everything. It's declared a mistrial. And when it's declared a mistrial, Fred Newlander smiled, and the prosecuting attorney saw him smile, and the next morning went down and filed for a retrial immediately. It's just like, we are doing this again right now. So when the new trial starts. Don't eat that paper. When the new trial starts. This time, his children testify for the prosecution.
- [87:46]
Georgia Hardstark
Wow.
- [87:47]
Karen Kilgariff
So Rebecca and Matthew now come and tell the story, and the tone is really different. And he's like, basically, it's very sad. The son is just like, my father was watching this whole thing and had no emotions whatsoever. And, like, his mother was murdered and his father. Father didn't care.
- [88:04]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God.
- [88:05]
Karen Kilgariff
So awful. Anyway, at the end of the second trial in 2002, he's declared guilty. And he does this speech at the end that is the lamest. And it's like that thing we've seen before where they just talk about themselves and how hard it is for them. And he actually, at one point, at the end of this kind of rambling speech that kind of makes no sense, and he's quoting Bible verse, of course, and then he goes, I and I alone know that I am innocent. And then it's just like. Well, listen to what you just said.
- [88:37]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [88:38]
Karen Kilgariff
Basically, like you just said, you're super fucking guilty.
- [88:41]
Georgia Hardstark
Right? Right.
- [88:42]
Karen Kilgariff
Not being persecuted. You're guilty. But then after that, Carol's brother Edward stands up and he goes, in the past eight years, you have acted in a manner so repulsive that words cannot begin to describe the person that you've become. You are a murderer, a liar, a coward, a cheat. You've dishonored, honored Carol yourself, your children, this court, the rabbinate, your congregation, and Judaism. And I just. As I'm watching City Confidential, I'm just, like, pausing and writing down every word Edward says because I was like, that's badass.
- [89:20]
Georgia Hardstark
That's powerful.
- [89:21]
Karen Kilgariff
Like, you're basically like, do whatever you think you're doing here. It's not work. You're humiliating yourself.
- [89:27]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. God doesn't like you anymore.
- [89:29]
Karen Kilgariff
That's right.
- [89:30]
Georgia Hardstark
Right.
- [89:30]
Karen Kilgariff
You blew it.
- [89:31]
Georgia Hardstark
You blew it.
- [89:32]
Karen Kilgariff
So now he's serving a life sentence. Paul Daniels and Len Janoff were both given 23 years for their parts in the world.
- [89:45]
Georgia Hardstark
Wow. That's it.
- [89:46]
Karen Kilgariff
Which is kind of insane that they're the ones that swung the fucking pipe. But it was because it was his plan, Fred's plan.
- [89:56]
Georgia Hardstark
It's like an intention. Your intention wasn't to kill your wife. It was to get money for someone else.
- [90:04]
Karen Kilgariff
And also, Len Janoff was promised that he was gonna get. He's gonna go. Be able to go join the Mossad, the Israeli army. Oh, it's called. Right. That's the Israeli army, the Mossad, or it might be Israeli special Forces, I don't know. But basically, he believed that he was gonna go from there to then go be like. Like a super soldier, which just shows that that guy was pretty nuts. He was released from jail in 2014, and Paul Daniels was released in October of 2014.
- [90:35]
Georgia Hardstark
Are you serious?
- [90:36]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, yeah. Wait, let me see if I missed anything, because I wish I could show you how insane these pieces of paper look of my handwriting. I'm handwriting City compound.
- [90:49]
Georgia Hardstark
I don't know how you can do that. That.
- [90:51]
Karen Kilgariff
It's kind of fun to, like, watch TV and then be like, this is important, and rewriting it down. But I didn't. I went out of order. Both trials were televised on Court tv.
- [91:03]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, yeah. I'd never even heard of it.
- [91:06]
Karen Kilgariff
I know. Isn't that crazy?
- [91:07]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [91:08]
Karen Kilgariff
And this is. So this guy, Arthur J. Magida, wrote a book called the Rabbi and the Hitman about this case. And this is just one last story from it that I thought was pretty good. So a congregant who was a doctor had been friends with Newlander for 20 years and traditionally went to the rabbi's house for their annual breaking of the fast after Yom Kippur. And when Newlander was charged with this crime before the trials, the physician told Newlander he wasn't going to keep their tradition. And the rabbi wanted to talk it over. And so he went to his friend's house. And sitting in the living room, that doctor told Newlander why he believed that he had had his wife killed, that Newlander never behaved like a grieving widower. That when the physician planned to offer reward for the information about Newlander asked for the money for himself. Newlander asked his friend to provide a letter explaining that medication he was taking for a heart problem would have caused him to fail his lie detector test.
- [92:06]
Georgia Hardstark
What?
- [92:08]
Karen Kilgariff
And he had a motive, because with his wife gone, he didn't have to worry about the mess of divorce and he could go on with his lady talk show host, radio talk show host. So Newlander tries to defend himself, saying he loved his wife. And then the doctor says, fred, no matter what you say, I can't help but like you. Cause you're charming and you're beguiling, but I think you're a psychopath and a murderer. And Newlander stands up to leave, walks a few steps away, then turns back and says, well, nobody's perfect.
- [92:40]
Georgia Hardstark
Ew.
- [92:41]
Karen Kilgariff
Fucking creep.
- [92:43]
Georgia Hardstark
Ew. Uh huh.
- [92:44]
Karen Kilgariff
Can you imagine your response? Still in your house. And that's what he says to I think you killed your wife. So I don't wanna hang out with you anymore.
- [92:52]
Georgia Hardstark
And. And you're a psychopath.
- [92:53]
Karen Kilgariff
You're a psychopath.
- [92:54]
Georgia Hardstark
Like, if someone called me a psychopath, it would ruin me. I'd be like, am I? No, I'm not.
- [93:00]
Karen Kilgariff
I know. That'd be very hurtful.
- [93:02]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, most people would. What?
- [93:05]
Karen Kilgariff
Also a doctor.
- [93:06]
Georgia Hardstark
A doctor.
- [93:07]
Karen Kilgariff
A doctor.
- [93:07]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. You can't argue with it. And he didn't get his degree from Phoenix.
- [93:11]
Karen Kilgariff
No. I bet you that was a real Cherry Hill doctor.
- [93:13]
Georgia Hardstark
He got his associates from Phoenix. But then he went.
- [93:16]
Karen Kilgariff
He actually got a cosmetology degree. Degree because he was interested in stuff like that. Then he was like, no, I like medicine.
- [93:22]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. I don't like cutting hair. I like cutting people. Yeah. Wow, that's some fucked up shit.
- [93:27]
Karen Kilgariff
That's the rabbi.
- [93:28]
Georgia Hardstark
That was a good story, though.
- [93:29]
Karen Kilgariff
Okay, thanks. Good. Because I really did have it written on nine different pieces of paper.
- [93:34]
Georgia Hardstark
I'm glad you went after me though, too. Okay. We're back, Karen. This story gets brought up with people I meet randomly more than any other story. I think I just meet so many people. People from Cherry Hill, New Jersey, have. Have you noticed that in your life?
- [93:54]
Karen Kilgariff
It seems like everybody's from Cherry Hill, New Jersey, or, or the surrounding area, for sure. But also, I think that the way. And we could credit the show City Confidential, there's so many places to credit, but the way this story lays out, where it's like someone starting to find bones in a backyard. And just like it's such a typical, horrifying true crime case that I think so many people just into it, where it's just like, oh my God, what's actually happening here?
- [94:25]
Georgia Hardstark
It's such a memorable case that I think anyone from there around that time remembers a rabbi, he killed his wife. He was this. You know, it's just. I've just. It's just been brought up so many times in my life. But anyway, do you have any updates?
- [94:40]
Karen Kilgariff
Yes, let's see. In 2024, 82 year old Fred Newlander was found unresponsive at his New Jersey prison after suffering a sudden medical emergency and he died at the hospital in 2022. There was a musical inspired by this case that they put up here in LA called A Wicked Soul in Cherry Hill.
- [95:01]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, yeah.
- [95:01]
Karen Kilgariff
The family was against this, though the rabbi's congregation was against it. It was a controversial thing, which makes perfect sense. Carol's Classic Cake Company is very much still in business. Now it's just called Classic Cake. And it officially reopened in May of 2024, four years after an electrical fire forced them to close. That grand reopening took place at the Cherry Hill, New Jersey location, and there was a crowd of loyal customers there. If you want to buy a cake from there, just go to classiccake.com and you can order a cake from there.
- [95:34]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, nice. Yeah, I always feel like this somewhat personally responsible when I find out that a Jewish person is a killer. I feel like it's just this, ooh, God damn it, why are you making us look bad? Kind of a thing. Like, people don't like us already. You're making it worse.
- [95:50]
Karen Kilgariff
That's such a culturally Jewish thing for you to say.
- [95:53]
Georgia Hardstark
Cause it's like guilty about it.
- [95:54]
Karen Kilgariff
This is my fault. Somehow. I have a piece of this where it's like, no, you don't.
- [95:58]
Georgia Hardstark
I'm sorry we did that. It's like you have nothing to do with it. Okay.
- [96:02]
Karen Kilgariff
But I also do think that because, like, especially rabbis, it's such a, like, Very specific. There's small amount of people that do it. It's, you know, obviously they're very dedicated. So it's just like this idea that we all think we know. And I. Yes, it's Fiddler on the Roof in. But it's like, we think we know what this means to be a rabbi. You know what I mean? To be a religious person and all of this. That then this turn is so, like, you're not allowed to be that way. And it's like, of course there's a dark side to everybody. There's a something else going on. You know, those are the people that hide are the people that have these, like, overtly spiritual lives.
- [96:40]
Georgia Hardstark
It's totally.
- [96:41]
Karen Kilgariff
I don't know.
- [96:42]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, it's creepy.
- [96:43]
Karen Kilgariff
I tried to get you off the hook there, but I think it was worth it. It was kind of worth salady.
- [96:49]
Georgia Hardstark
No, it's good. It's good. You're right. All right, let's go back in and we'll listen to our good thoughts of the week from 2017. What were they? What were we thinking?
- [97:01]
Karen Kilgariff
So we can leave on a slightly. Oh, yeah. We should talk about a positive. A thing we like. Yeah, A thing that made us happy. Well, I would say. Let's see mine. I have been on the couch a lot since we've got back from Portland.
- [97:17]
Georgia Hardstark
I mean, it takes a lot out of here.
- [97:19]
Karen Kilgariff
It really does. But then also, once I get on the couch, I have a real hard time getting back off. Like, it's just so much easier to stay there.
- [97:25]
Georgia Hardstark
It is.
- [97:26]
Karen Kilgariff
What have you been watching Modern Family.
- [97:28]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, yeah.
- [97:29]
Karen Kilgariff
I TiVo'd Modern Family and it is just such a. It's such a well written show. It's such a good show. The characters are so watchable and likable. I'm so in love with Cam of Mitchell and Cam. Oh, my God, the two gay guys. He's just the best character. But all of them, there are just so many good jokes. And that's the thing is TV writing is very hard. And they have been delivering a plus grade comedy for 10 years. I mean, all I did was enter it and immediately I had 15 episodes of Modern Family. And I got it from my sister. I will give her full credit because she's been obsessed with it since the moment it came out. And that's why I have a song where I reference Modern Family. Really, where I say in the song, if one more person tells me to watch Modern Family, oh, my God, blah, blah, blah. And a lot of people are like, oh, you hate that show, it's like. No, no, no. I'm just taking that from a real anecdote of me and my sister. Like, every time I talked to my sister on the phone, she would tell me to watch it.
- [98:34]
Georgia Hardstark
I watched it in the beginning and then I stopped. It's still good.
- [98:37]
Karen Kilgariff
It's amazing. Yeah, it's just perfectly written. Yeah, that and I've been having great Lyft driver conversations lately.
- [98:46]
Georgia Hardstark
Mm, that's nice. Cause you always get scared or. I always get scared that. It's like I had a nightmare one the other day, and I'm a nightmare person, a nightmare conversationist, which means he was just talking at me and I was getting oversick from it.
- [98:59]
Karen Kilgariff
And you go, doot. Doot. Earpods. Earbuds.
- [99:02]
Georgia Hardstark
That's awesome. That's a sweet one.
- [99:04]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, it's been pretty pleasant, but really, I have to get a car. It's ridiculous. I'm acting like Miss Daisy. But it's nice sometimes to have, like, a pleasant conversation where you laugh about how bad drivers in LA are.
- [99:20]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Yeah.
- [99:22]
Karen Kilgariff
What's yours?
- [99:24]
Georgia Hardstark
Well, I guess I just finished watching it yesterday, but. Big Little Lies.
- [99:30]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, yeah.
- [99:31]
Georgia Hardstark
Which I didn't think I would like. I never read the book, even though Audible was always like, you might like this. You might like this. And I'm like, no, I won't. You know, like a brat. Sure.
- [99:40]
Karen Kilgariff
That's how you know everything.
- [99:42]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, I don't like that. From Oprah's Book Club. That's the kind of. You know. And then, of course, it's fucking amazing. And the show is so good. And it was all these female characters that were. That their whole lives weren't based on. They had these whole lives around their husbands and families, and they were central characters instead of being the backup singers to their. You know. And it was just like, about them. It was about them, and their co star in life was their partner, and it was just kind of cool. And the acting was so fucking good. And Shylee Woodley. What's her name?
- [100:17]
Karen Kilgariff
Shailene.
- [100:18]
Georgia Hardstark
Shailene. She's just like, I want.
- [100:20]
Karen Kilgariff
She's such a great actor.
- [100:21]
Georgia Hardstark
She's so great in it. And it was really fun. It was fucked up and good. And there's a murder and it's a murder mystery.
- [100:28]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, okay. I didn't know that. Cause I tried to watch the first. I swear to God, I don't think I got four minutes in. And the first exchange two women had talking to each other. The tones of voice they were using made me turn my TV off. Because it was like, oh, hi, Arlene, nice to see you, or whatever.
- [100:46]
Georgia Hardstark
Like, they all come out as, like, cunty cunts.
- [100:49]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, okay.
- [100:50]
Georgia Hardstark
And then it's like. But there's shit going on underneath the surface.
- [100:52]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, I'm going back.
- [100:53]
Georgia Hardstark
And it's a murder. The whole thing is a murder mystery.
- [100:56]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, shit.
- [100:57]
Georgia Hardstark
And it's good. And everyone is having these. The Nicole Kidman and Alexander Sarsgaard relationship was amazing. Cool. Like, you just need to watch it to see the two of them.
- [101:08]
Karen Kilgariff
Nicole Kidman takes a lot of shit, but she's an incredible actress.
- [101:12]
Georgia Hardstark
They're gonna win all the awards. Her and Reese Witherspoon, I think, are gonna win it all.
- [101:17]
Karen Kilgariff
I sent my friend a GIF the other day of. Remember when she was clapping at the Oscars?
- [101:22]
Georgia Hardstark
Yes.
- [101:22]
Karen Kilgariff
Someone made that. And I can't figure out if someone did this to the gif or if this is really what it looked like. But it looks like her fingers are this. Like, it looks like she has alien fingers as she's clapping.
- [101:34]
Georgia Hardstark
I think that's real.
- [101:35]
Karen Kilgariff
Is that what her hands really look like?
- [101:37]
Georgia Hardstark
I don't know. I saw that too, and I think it's real.
- [101:41]
Karen Kilgariff
I was laughing anyway when I found it because it looks like flippers.
- [101:46]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. It looks like her nails are wet and she's trying not to let them near each other.
- [101:51]
Karen Kilgariff
But also that she's from Mars.
- [101:53]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [101:54]
Karen Kilgariff
That aside, that's me giving her shit. When I say she takes a lot of shit. But she. For example, when she started in fucking those Australian. You know, I'm the pretty girl at the prep school.
- [102:06]
Georgia Hardstark
Right.
- [102:06]
Karen Kilgariff
She has been an incredible. Did you ever see Dead Calm where she's on the boat?
- [102:11]
Georgia Hardstark
Mm. Mm.
- [102:11]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, my God. If you wanna see, like, an amazing murder, like, it's a horror. Not horror. I guess it'd be suspense or something.
- [102:19]
Georgia Hardstark
Action.
- [102:21]
Karen Kilgariff
But it's her and Sam Neill, I think, and somebody else. They're on a boat. It's so good. And she is like. It's when she had her kinky curly hair.
- [102:28]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [102:29]
Karen Kilgariff
And she had her freckles. And she was probably 20. And she's so beyond gorgeous.
- [102:33]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Yeah, she's gorgeous. Yeah.
- [102:35]
Karen Kilgariff
And she still is to this day.
- [102:36]
Georgia Hardstark
They all play these wealthy. These wealthy women from Monterey, and everyone has these secrets underneath kind of a thing. And it's. There's some. You know, it's good.
- [102:48]
Karen Kilgariff
I'm going back.
- [102:48]
Georgia Hardstark
It's fine. This is a. You need a. I was bummed that I didn't binge watch it because I had to Wait a week to watch the new one. So get in there.
- [102:56]
Karen Kilgariff
Go binge.
- [102:56]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [102:57]
Karen Kilgariff
Also, Adam Scott's in it. Who?
- [102:58]
Georgia Hardstark
I adore Adam Scott's in it. He plays a really great character. He's fun.
- [103:03]
Karen Kilgariff
Okay, good. That's a good rap.
- [103:04]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, for sure. So that made me happy this week. Anything else we need to.
- [103:13]
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, I think that we said last episode was like 60. I said it was like 67 and it was 62 or something. I was off by a lot. What's the numbers, sid?
- [103:23]
Georgia Hardstark
This is 63.
- [103:25]
Karen Kilgariff
But didn't last week I say it was like 67?
- [103:29]
Georgia Hardstark
I mean, who cares? Yeah, we're up there, we're past 50. It's not like someone was setting their watch by like, oh, shit, it's already. I said I was gonna do this thing in my life before 67 happened.
- [103:38]
Karen Kilgariff
And now, fuck, they're like, you know what? I'm gonna stop smoking around episode 67.
- [103:44]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. And if I haven't, then I am going to start smoking. Okay. And we're back.
- [103:54]
Karen Kilgariff
Okay, so this episode was actually originally titled Steven's Tuxedo Genius. I mean, it kind of almost makes you think that Steven is a tuxedo cat. A little black and white cat.
- [104:05]
Georgia Hardstark
Awesome.
- [104:05]
Karen Kilgariff
That's what it made me think of.
- [104:07]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, I picture those, like tuxedo T shirts from the 80s on him.
- [104:12]
Karen Kilgariff
Well, if we were naming it today, there's many choices for us to rename it.
- [104:17]
Georgia Hardstark
What about like, for example, what if we called it what about the Treble? About that Las Vegas DJ Stephen?
- [104:25]
Karen Kilgariff
Or you're welcome, Ben Mendelsohn, where we're actually casting the Lifetime movie. Of course.
- [104:34]
Georgia Hardstark
And then I like this one. It's me, Pam.
- [104:40]
Karen Kilgariff
That's right. I forgot about my character Pam. That used to come up all the time.
- [104:44]
Georgia Hardstark
I do, too. We should ring her back. Back. Bring her back.
- [104:48]
Karen Kilgariff
Did we use Pam in the ten Foot Skeleton? Maybe. Maybe we had to retire it because that's the most famous Pam.
- [104:55]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, was that Deb? I think you're right. Maybe it was Pam or Deb or someone.
- [104:59]
Karen Kilgariff
Has this all been real? It's ten year folly. Adieu.
- [105:03]
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, my God. Well, thank you guys for listening to another episode of Rewind. Let's let Elvis and Mimi say goodbye. Where's Elvis? Well, you guys, thank you for listening.
- [105:18]
Karen Kilgariff
Tell a friend, guys, thank you for everything.
- [105:21]
Georgia Hardstark
You are our light and our honor. Honors system and heart and soul. An honor system.
- [105:30]
Karen Kilgariff
And mostly you're our honor system.
- [105:32]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
- [105:33]
Karen Kilgariff
If you take a penny, you leave a penny in our hearts.
- [105:37]
Georgia Hardstark
You've left a penny.
- [105:39]
Karen Kilgariff
You left a penny in my heart. Smart. Don't. I'll put a nickel in yours.
- [105:44]
Georgia Hardstark
You're gonna double down. Well, thanks for listening. I don't need. I don't know. Thank you for listening.
- [105:54]
Karen Kilgariff
Thank you for everything. Oh, does Mimi want to come and make her debut?
- [105:58]
Georgia Hardstark
Maybe she does. I mean her triple.
- [106:00]
Karen Kilgariff
Her triple appearance.
- [106:01]
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah. Third time's a charm. Mimi.
- [106:03]
Karen Kilgariff
Stay sexy, everybody.
- [106:04]
Georgia Hardstark
And don't get murdered.
- [106:06]
Karen Kilgariff
Mimi.
- [106:07]
Georgia Hardstark
Bye. Mimi. Want a cookie? Mimi. Mimi.
- [106:14]
Karen Kilgariff
Good girl. God, it's cute. She's the Nicole Kidman of cats.
- [106:18]
Georgia Hardstark
She is.
- [106:19]
Karen Kilgariff
Mimi. What? Cookie.
- [106:21]
Georgia Hardstark
A cookie. Oh, Elvis. Here he is.
- [106:26]
Karen Kilgariff
You want.
- [106:26]
Georgia Hardstark
Want a cook? The hit TV drama High Potential is Back. Season two stars Kaitlyn Olson as Morgan, a crime solving single mom with an IQ of 160. Every week, Morgan uses her unconventional style and exceptional mind to crack LAPD's most perplexing cases. This show is the perfect blend of humor and mystery. Watch as Morgan breaks the mold without breaking a sweat. New episodes of High potential Tuesdays at 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu. Goodbye.
- [107:00]
Karen Kilgariff
Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? WashablesOfAs.com has your back featuring the Annabe Collection, the only designer sofa that's machine washable inside and out. Where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slipcovers made with performance fabrics. Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your annabe sofa backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return, shipping or restocking fee.
- [107:51]
Georgia Hardstark
Every penny back.
- [107:52]
Karen Kilgariff
Upgrade now@washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply. Every business has an ambition. PayPal open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo, Paylay and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up when it's time to get growing. There's one platform for all business PayPal open. Grow today at PayPalOpen.com loans subject to approval in available locations.