Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 64: Live At Revolution Hall

Summary

My Favorite Murder: Rewind with Karen & Georgia – Episode 64: Live At Revolution Hall (October 1, 2025)

Episode Overview

In this special "Rewind" episode, hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark revisit their iconic 2017 live show at Portland’s Revolution Hall. Alongside podcast collaborator Dana Schwartz, they offer behind-the-scenes commentary, updates, and reflections on the live event. The episode revisits key stories from the original show—including a chilling serial killer case, a harrowing survivor’s experience, and an unforgettable audience hometown. The episode’s tone is lively, irreverent, self-deprecating, and deeply compassionate, with signature banter and true-crime insights.

---

Key Segments and Insights

1. Live Show Vibes, Banter, and Portland Memories

• [02:12–08:00] Karen, Georgia, and Steven set the scene at Revolution Hall, reflecting on the end of a touring run in Portland. Their signature banter covers fan ticket drama, Portland quirks, and backstage antics.
  • “I wish it could be like 14 more nights. It really has been very, very fun and exciting.” – Karen [03:29]
  • “That is so Portland of you, Portland. I swear to God.” – Karen [03:13]
• Fashion and Caffeine Tangents: Anecdotes about matching scalloped necklines, yerba mate-fueled energy, and clothes mishaps.
  • “Karen was like, cut yours off. And I'm like, I'm not cutting it off.” – Georgia [07:23]
  • “We’re just going to come out holding hands like the Shining Twins. Like, get ready for the wall of blood. Verbal. The verbal wall of blood.” – Karen [07:47]

2. Standout Audience Stories ("Hometown Murder" Recap)

• [08:10–11:34] Recounting an intense moment where an audience member’s sister army-rolled onto the stage to add details to a wild hometown murder story.
  • "That is not cool. That is not cool." – Karen [09:44]
  • “She goes, you're forgetting this important part, which is such a sister thing to say.” – Georgia [10:32]
• Reflections on the comedic and tense mishap, reinforcing the chaotic energy of early live shows.

3. Portland Love, Fan Encounters, and Shoe Talk

• [13:14–17:13] Stories of heartfelt (and humorous) hotel desk fan encounters, over-the-top donut tributes, and wardrobe details.
  • “We stood across the hotel front desk holding arms like I was gonna pull him up onto the lifeboat style, full on arm clasp.” – Karen [13:49]
  • “Donuts that look like us.” – Karen [18:39]
• Georgia recounts grappling with Portland's food scene and tour diet confessions.
  • "I basically had foie gras for breakfast today." – Georgia [17:46]

---

Core True Crime Stories

4. Karen’s Case: Bobby Jack Fowler & the Highway of Tears

• [27:21–41:09] Karen explores the grisly crimes of serial killer Bobby Jack Fowler, a transient with a string of violent offenses across North America.
  • Details:
    • Fowler's connection to the infamous Highway of Tears—where numerous Indigenous women disappeared.
    • His conviction following a survivor’s daring escape (jumping from a motel window with a rope around her ankle).
    • Posthumous DNA evidence linking him to long-unsolved murders.
  • "He’s like Ted Bundy level serial killer that no one’s ever heard of." – Karen [40:26]
  • "That hit was the oldest hit on a DNA sample in Interpol history." – Karen [38:01]
• [41:19–43:46] Rewind Commentary & Updates
  • Discussing recent developments: improvements in Highway 16 safety, Indigenous-led activism, and the 2019 Canadian report on missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls.
  • “The Canadian National Inquiry… released its final report in 2019, officially calling this violence a form of genocide.” – Georgia [43:21]
  • “So many women… disappearing along Highway 16… had to start a task force for it.” – Karen [37:56]

5. Georgia’s Case: Klein Falls State Park Hatchet Attack

• [48:03–67:57] Georgia tells the survival story of Terry Jens and Shana Weiss, two Yale students attacked while camping in Oregon in 1977.
  • Details:
    • Attacked in their tent by a hatchet-wielding man in cowboy gear.
    • Both women survived with severe injuries; the case remained unsolved.
    • After years, Terry returned, investigated her own unsolved case, and wrote A Strange Piece of Paradise.
  • “She grabs the hatchet right here, like she’s praying, and says to him, please go away… and he fucking leaves.” – Georgia [52:36]
  • “She used to make—like, ‘Yeah, I got attacked… look how I got past this.’ And then suddenly she’s like, I have PTSD.” – Georgia [67:49]
• Investigation & Advocacy:
  • Terry’s activism led to the elimination of Oregon’s statute of limitations on attempted murder.
  • "So thank Terry, among other people, for that." – Georgia [66:29]

---

Hometown Story: Nicole & the ‘Pig Farm Killer’ (Susan Monica)

• [70:35–79:24] Audience member Nicole recounts a chilling stint in jail with Susan Monica, a woman convicted of murdering farm workers and feeding them to pigs.
  • “She’s a tall woman and she is completely hairless… And I was completely unaware of the situations going on in my own town.” – Nicole [72:35]
  • “She had court and they gave her a wig… she was mad about the wig because it wasn’t her natural hair.” – Nicole [73:25]
  • Nicole was tucked in to bed by Susan Monica in jail—a motherly gesture from a serial killer.
  • “And I will tell you guys, that’s the last time I’ve ever been in jail.” – Nicole [76:42]
  • Hosts’ reactions highlight the blend of horror and absurdity, ending on supportive and compassionate notes for Nicole’s recovery.

---

Behind the Scenes, Reflections & Updates

Rewind Commentary Highlights ([20:40–44:11])

• Commentary on the logistics and learning curve of early live shows (e.g., “...we were just getting on our live show feet…”).
• Fashion banter about coordinating tour outfits and the perils of matching.
• Insights on true crime storytelling evolution: “We didn’t know yet at live shows and even at regular not live shows to end with a positive story. So these are just both bad, both terrible.” – Dana [43:46]

Follow-ups and Aftermath

• Bobby Jack Fowler: No new charges since his death, but advances in awareness and Indigenous advocacy.
• Highway of Tears: Progress with transport safety and grassroots organizations; continued push for justice.
• Klein Falls Case: Terry Jens’ activism changed Oregon law, but the crime remains formally unsolved.
• Susan Monica: Still serving a 50-year sentence, no further legal developments.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Get out of that relationship… if his mom still does his laundry.” – Karen (& Georgia in agreement) [80:47]
• “I can see everything and everyone and I can see her auras. Oh, shit, girl. Real good right now.” – Georgia [06:01]
• “Don’t date guys whose mom still do their laundry.” – Karen [80:56]
• “Portland, we adore you… one of the first pieces of ‘Stay Sexy, Don’t Get Murdered’ graffiti… was from Portland, Oregon, and it really meant the world to us.” – Karen [81:29]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Live Show Banter & Portland Memories: 02:12–08:00
• Wild Audience Story (Army Roll): 08:10–11:34
• Stumptown & Donuts: 13:14–18:39
• Karen’s Story: Bobby Jack Fowler: 27:21–41:09
• Rewind Updates on Highway of Tears: 41:19–43:46
• Georgia’s Story: Klein Falls Hatchet Attack: 48:03–67:57
• Hometown Corner (Susan Monica): 70:35–79:24
• Closing Reflections, Name Alternatives: 80:19–81:12

---

Tone and Takeaways

Throughout the episode, Karen and Georgia blend dark subject matter with humor, empathy, and an encouraging embrace of their community—both fans and survivors. The "Rewind" format layers nostalgia, growth, and self-awareness atop classic stories, illustrating how true crime discussion has evolved to center justice and compassion.

Closing Note:
“Stay Sexy and Don’t Get Murdered. You vandalize in our name. Thank you kindly for that. You’ve graffitied our hearts.” – [82:02]

---

For further info and to support Indigenous safety efforts:
Visit tearstohope.ca (Tears to Hope Society) and the Final Report of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls (link).

Stay sexy, don’t get murdered, and cherish those Portland memories!

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right.

[Hunting for Answers narrator]

Short on time, but big on true crime. On a recent episode of the podcast Hunting for Answers, I highlighted the story of 19 year old Lashay Dungy. But she never knocked on that door. She never made it inside. And that text message would be the last time anyone would ever hear from her. To hear this and more true crime stories, Open your free iHeartRadio app search hunting for answers and listen now.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all, his wife, Caroline.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?

[Georgia Hardstark]

The fact that you lied is absolutely horrific.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And quite frankly, I question how many other women are out there that may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Andrea Gunning]

Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dana Schwartz]

In 1920, a magazine article announced something incredible. Two young girls had photographed real face. But even more incredible, that article was written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the man who invented Sherlock Holmes. How did he fall for that? Hoax is a new podcast from me, Dana Schwartz, the host of Noble Blood.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And me, Lizzie Logan.

[Dana Schwartz]

Every episode, we'll explore one of the most audacious and ambitious tricks in history and try to answer the question why.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We believe what we believe.

[Dana Schwartz]

Listen to Hoax on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Steven]

My favorite mom.

[Dana Schwartz]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

That's right, it's Wednesday, and that means we're recapping our old episodes with all new commentary and updates and insights.

[Dana Schwartz]

Today, we're looking back on episode 64, which we named you won't believe this live at Revolution Hall.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Yep, it's our Portland live show. And this episode came out April 13, 2017.

[Dana Schwartz]

So let's get into the intro of episode 64.

[Steven]

Hi. Sweater already? No, hi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Doing it out of obligation.

[Steven]

We know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the first time that happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I actually. I didn't hear what you said.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I said they're doing it out of obligation because one person did it. That's the first time that ever happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is the first time that's ever happened.

[Steven]

That's Portland. What's up, Portland?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is so Portland of you, Portland. I swear to God.

[Steven]

Wow. Hi, Portland. I like you. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I actually am a little bit sad because this is the last night of our room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here's the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wish it could be like 14 more nights. It really has been very, very fun and exciting. Thank you very much for being here and thank you for getting tickets and waiting for tickets and dealing with scalpers and letting us know that you didn't get enough tickets and you're mad about it and it's our fault that your lives were ending because of the tickets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you've been listening from the beginning and how you know and that you should get first run of ticket.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You are. You are the biggest fans and you deserve the most tickets. So we're.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you kindly for being here first.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are admonishing the assholes. That's how I start every show is just telling you guys what dicks are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, listen, there's plenty of clappers, but the assholes need to be, like, given their proxies as well.

[Steven]

Do they?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love that you. Good start. Good start.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's start over. Stephen, can we go again?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here we go.

[Steven]

I'll roll it back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Roll it back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I still don't know where he is in the light.

[Steven]

I still don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't see anything anyways.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. I actually am legally blind.

[Steven]

Oh, right here, look it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Vince came backstage and said, update from the audience. Stephen has a line of people waiting to be a photo with him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Steven, that's the quickest way to get fired is get more popular than the host.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And mommy Ray Morris is here, too.

[Steven]

Mommy Ray Morris. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Steven invited his mother, who probably has never heard this podcast, has no interest in murder, doesn't think what we're doing is right. Probably it's gonna.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, Steven's not her favorite anyways. It's true. Well, now Steven's a successful one, even though his sister's a doctor, I think.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now who's successful?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you better tell her that podcasts are the wave of the future. So doctoring is out. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Hell, yeah. Nobody needs a doctor anymore. I'm sorry. I've been drinking this fucking insane same crack.

[Steven]

Caffeine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What is it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's yerba mate. Have you guys.

[Steven]

Have you guys heard of it? Oh, Portland.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Have you heard of yerba mate? And do you know gluten is bad for you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can see everything and everyone and I can see her auras. Oh, shit, girl. Real good right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you have any animal familiars on.

[Steven]

The stage right now? I don't know what that is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, there are animals you hallucinate that talk to you and tell you how to live.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's. Well, my cats then. Are that. Because that's all my life is. I know that's his name.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. I have actually a very similar thing right now, which is that Georgia likes to bring me, which is one of the best things about touring with Georgia. She brings me a coffee. It's just super exciting. So she last night and tonight has brought me a mocha from Stumptown. And last night when she gave it to me, I was like, awesome, thanks. Drank the whole thing super fast. And when I went to walk out for the first show, I was like, oh, my God. Like, I was fucking blazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then you're like, is this from.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Some town or are you dosing me just to change it up on tour a little bit?

[Georgia Hardstark]

A little bit of that Adderall, then we're good. Oh, we forgot to mention that this is all accidental. Our necklines. Yeah. I'm sure you guys were wondering.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're definitely sitting out there going, two scalloped necklines.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Steven]

Why?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do that on a live tour.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I thought they. I guess, like, I had it in my mind that they weren't matching, but I guess they're super matchy matchy. Yeah, it's on purpose, but we're going with it. We didn't. Karen was like, cut yours off. And I'm like, I'm not cutting it off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I demanded that she cut up her dress. I was like, I'm the primary. You have to adjust yours.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But. And then we. But I did make her part her hair the other way so we didn't look exactly the same.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Although I am going to cut it short. And then we're just going to come out holding hands like the Shining Twins. Like, get ready for the wall of blood. Verbal. The verbal wall of blood.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Karen and I'm Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And this is my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is my favorite murder. Thank you.

[Steven]

We.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We want to tell you guys the story from last night, cuz it's pretty hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But we're telling it to you as adults, promising that you won't get any ideas from it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I was like, do we tell them or are they just going to be like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm like, we got to tell them. We got to tell them. Yeah. So last night, during the hometown murder portion of the show at the end, we had this girl come up and told the fucking most amazing story. It was like everything I've ever wanted in a story of finding dead bodies. And the dead body is a bad guy. And it was this and it was that. It was her cousin. It was like, second, like one Kevin Bacon away from that kind of death. A dead body in a creek. It's. What more do you want?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they didn't know. And they were like, what is that, a jacket? It's not a jacket. It is a jacket, but there's an entire. You know, there's an arm and the jacket. So think about that before you offer to be the hometown tonight. It's like, you gotta beat that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very high. Very high stakes. So as she's telling the story, I was asking questions like, well, did he tell you what it felt like to pick up a dead arm and stuff? I was, you know, going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was very excited.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Barbara Walters, deep with it, trying to make her cry. And as we were talking, she was like, I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I was standing here, and it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was kind of like this. So we were talking to her, and she was like, I don't really know. Whatever. And then I look and I see.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Both of their faces and Karen's especially. And it's horrified behind my shoulder and what's happening? And that's my biggest nightmare.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's happening is this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I turned.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's a girl in an army jacket. No judgments. And she's sneaking cartoon style down the aisle.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But she fucking army rolled onto the.

[Steven]

She got onto the stage and then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, army rolled and standing here. So I, of course, have to kick into fucking third grade teacher mode. And I was like, that is not cool. That is not cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I just stood here, kind of went like this. And that was really cool of you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you. And turns out it was this girl's sister.

[Steven]

She just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The exact information I was asking for, she came to provide.

[Steven]

But the sister took a beat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's all she wanted to do was be like, I know what the arm felt like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She said, she did such a sister move. This girl took a beat while Karen was yelling at her. And then she goes, oh, that's my sister. Like, she took a minute to shoot it. We were both like, what the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I was, like, immediately picturing, like, a fucking bowie knife. And, like, she's just gonna roll up and then be like, I'm mad about the. Yeah, I didn't get. I didn't get tickets the first time around.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I got overserved at the bar. Then she came up and did such a fucking sister thing. I couldn't believe it. She goes, you're forgetting this important part, which is such a sister thing to say.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was super perfect. What I realized, though, is because I was of Course, super embarrassed that I had to like that. I got super bossy with her. But in my mind, looking back on it, nobody sneaks like this. Unless they're like on fucking meth or something, right?

[Steven]

It's like, I'm just gonna come up here for a second and interrupt the show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I will fucking kill you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Those are not good intentions. And now we know that Vince is fucking useless in an emergency. Even though I specifically told him, you need to fucking protect me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was backstage smoking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, he doesn't smoke.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He doesn't smoke.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, Steven never moved from his spa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I had to record the show. You couldn't take your finger off the play button.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Audio above all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that was. That was kind of an. That was an exciting portion of the night. It was. It was a real roller coaster, actually.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, God, that was scary. Worst nightmare. It was fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What else have we done? Oh, also, do you want to just take a quick shoe walk? Because they're so good. Just tell the people. Work it, own it.

[Steven]

That's why you're wearing them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can walk in them. This is like the. The two times a year I wear heels and it's an hour long. I wore these at my wedding last year. Last time I wore them. You fucking changed. You've just, like, given up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can't do.

[Steven]

I can't do it anymore.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

I didn't mean it like that.

[Steven]

I didn't mean it like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can't do it anymore.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She had heels on last night and tonight is clog night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wore heels and even those ones were like the kind you can play basketball in or whatever. They weren't like any cracks. Had crazy heels. Feels like a sneaker. But when I went to put them on tonight, I was like, but fuck that shit.

[Steven]

And I grabbed the old. Yeah, do your own thread carrot hit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you. Oh, follow spot. Here we go. That's the magic of theater.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're trying to get her to come over, Shell, but you know, this is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where I come alive.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do. You can't tell right now, but I did say fuck it to my Spanx, Jess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, really?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I just won't now.

[Steven]

Do it now. Do it now. You can kinda.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A little bit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Look at that woman. She's free.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck it, fuck it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's free. Fuck it, fuck it all. Wait, I think we have a couple more anecdotes for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, right? I can't remember any.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, here's mine. When I was leaving my hotel tonight, the most lovely man that worked at the front desk named Tyler. This is what it was like. You walk by and I'm gonna be Tyler and you're walking. You leave.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is how Karen walks whenever she goes.

[Steven]

Nuh, that's not true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, you have to make eye contact with me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, but I. Yeah. Then I was like, hello, Murderina.

[Steven]

I know you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can tell immediately that, like, what it's gonna. It's not like, excuse me, ma'.

[Steven]

Am.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, do you need more towels? It's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's. You've been whispering in my ear for the past six months. I need to talk to you right now. You have to touch me. We. I've never seen this person before. Met them before. We stood across the hotel front desk holding arms like I was gonna pull him up onto the lifeboat style, full on arm clasp. Like, yes, Tyler, yes, I'm here with you. This is really happening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The best is when you then get a. My so and so got murdered. And you're then like, great. This has turned into the best fucking interaction I've ever had.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tell me everything now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're having a level 17 conversations that like, normally people that are only friends for five years have or shit faced. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or Vince and I were walking yesterday down. We were walking down the street and this couple walks by us. And then I hear her go. I see her look at her. Her boyfriend in a way that was like, okay. And then she goes. As she passes, she says, that's my favorite murder. Like she doesn't know which one I am. And I turn around and wave at her because she was really sweet, but she just didn't know which one I was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When she told me that, I was like, what if her favorite murder was happening behind you? She's like, oh my God, I love it when an old lady kills a homeless person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'm like, thank you.

[Steven]

That's my favorite mom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you for listening. And she's like, who the fuck are you? Away from me. That happened to me recently at a store.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's like, tell that one, it's good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She goes, I go to buy a thing. And then she goes, I know you from somewhere. And I said, oh, did you watch the cooking channel? Because I was like, well, she doesn't own my face. Unless she's like, right, right, right. And she was like, oh, no, you look like someone who was in earlier.

[Steven]

Then I died.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She was fucking with you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then I totally made fun of myself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I thought you were my good friend. What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That sucks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not you. You guys missed out last Night. And I'm sorry I brought a tissue on stage for my allergies because I fucking wiped my nose on this exact tablecloth yesterday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like that. We're that comfortable here with you.

[Steven]

Georgia was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're just sitting there, and she's like, oh, fuck, it blows her nose on the tablecloth. Thanks, Revolution Hall. We're so proud to be here with you. Have us back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just, like, can feel into my heart, like, a sixth sense how mortified my mom is, and it gives me life. Like, my mom can't handle me not standing up straight. She would be so mortified. And I fucking love it. That's like, I live to embarrass my mom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you blew your nose on a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tablecloth, you mean if she knew that I did that, not even, like, at a restaurant real quick, but, like, in front of a bunch of people.

[Steven]

Oh, she would die.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For real.

[Steven]

Good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If my mom saw this tights, boot clog combination, she'd just be like, I don't know what you're doing or why you're still rebelling, but you need to figure it out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You have lipstick on, though.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I have lipstick on so I don't look like a corpse, which is what she normally would accuse me of. Oh, honey, put some lips. You look like a corpse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then I'd scream at her, I'm never having babies. And then she would just turn into dust and die.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's really. That really is like the fucking the gauntlet to throw down in any fight with your mom. I will not reproduce.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I said it and it felt. So I said it to her on the phone. She called my sister, Georgia, how wonderful. What a gift it is. And I'm like, you weren't even around. What are you fucking telling cuts?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You sitting on the toilet with an eating. God damn it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She wins again. I never tell my mom that I'm pregnant and have a baby. And she just never tell her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You just pretend that you've gained very specific weight and then lost it. Specifically.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Speaking of it turns.

[Steven]

We gotta stop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I need to stop thinking that when I'm away from home at any time on tour, I can eat whatever the fuck I want because we're touring a lot and I need to stop fucking doing that. Like, I basically had foie gras for breakfast today. Oh, that's fancy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fancy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Spend that tour money, baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck yeah, dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's why we're holding off all the tickets, so that Georgia can eat foie gras.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For breakfast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, that does sound a little shitty, doesn't it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tweet us about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know some people can't afford foie gras.

[Steven]

I'm sorry, I'm again, you know, bougie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't eat it at home, so I'm at home also, it seems like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What'S going on with Portland, where now you guys are just all about donuts all the time? Are you just like. No, it's. No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Two nights in a row. We had donuts back. Oh, the first night, man, we had.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Donuts that look like us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Voodoo. Voodoo donuts of all place. It wasn't even like Bob's Donuts down the street, like, made donuts. It's like voodoo donuts. They know who we are. That blew my mind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, they could have googled it or.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was like the one girl who works there who's just like. Just started and she's like, hey, let's podcast them. And they're like, whatever. Who can get over whatever?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's your shift. If you can lean, you can clean or make donuts of your favorite podcasters. We don't give a shit, man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Patricia just makes the fucking most obscure shit. I don't know what the fuck she's. She's getting fired.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you see Patricia's. Wait, wait, don't tell me. Donut. It was insane.

[Steven]

My God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just a red square.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just Paula Poundstone's face.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just a big long tie and a huge blazer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven had one, too. It was fucking great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What'd you just say to Steven?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven had one, too, and it was fucking great. I realized I didn't announce.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, they made one of Stephen, which is so fucking. It was so hilarious. Yeah, absolutely. Clap for Steven's donut.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I ate my own head. It was jelly filled, which is pretty. Right on. It's pretty accurate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it's pretty accurate.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Should we sit down?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let's. Okay. All right. Yeah.

[Steven]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. No, clap for it. For sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm going to there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She.

[Steven]

Allergies, man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't. In Portland, you guys have all the allergies. I can't open this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so what we do on this podcast is we have you guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know if you guys listen, but what we.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We, you know, we look up murders and then we read them to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Most of them got tickets. Like, the guy scalping, like, buy one, get one free. There's a show.

[Dana Schwartz]

Hey, there's a great show tonight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You guys want to come in?

[Steven]

I Guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, I don't have anything else to do, so we should explain it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay, we're back from the intro.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

I mean, if you do the math. Am I wrong to believe that this is our first live show in Portland? Because it's April 2017. Our first live show ever was December 2016.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I don't know the math.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Or November 2016.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it would be.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

It kind of makes sense.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, like we posted a back catalog.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of the live show.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

No, no, no. This is the first time we ever played live in Portland. It was three shows. And that's why we're talking about it so much, because the last episode, which is the last rewind, we just got home from three insane shows in Portland.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

And so now this is the insanity.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And we're on tour while you're listening to this, so, yeah, that's all you're gonna hear about for the rest of your fucking life.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Tour this and tour that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then we're gonna do a spinoff.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Show of this show about touring.

[Dana Schwartz]

And we're always gonna wear the same dress. What if we wore the same dress this tour? Just one dress.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Same.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

No matter how dirty or tattered it gets, or wrinkly, whatever, you have to keep wearing it.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

I mean, do you remember that moment where we looked at each other backstage and we're like, scallop neck. How did this happen?

[Dana Schwartz]

I don't know. It blew my mind because it was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A little black dress.

[Dana Schwartz]

But the scalloped neckline, I've never seen that before.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we both thought we did. We were both.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

We were both shopping, and we're like, yes, here it is at the same time in, like, across town, basically.

[Dana Schwartz]

Second. 90210. Prom vibes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

That was crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

It's so funny.

[Dana Schwartz]

What are your dresses like this time? I texted Craig, your assistant, and said, if you know what Karen's wearing for the first city, will you let me know so I can coordinate?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because I'm just, like, picturing.

[Dana Schwartz]

I like to coordinate outfits, you know? Like, I thought that'll go great with this. It's just, like, fun for me. And so I'm like, what if she's wearing this color and I'm totally clashing with these stripes? I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm wearing black, baby.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

All black.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

That's it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a black dress.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

And it looks like a lot of the dresses you've seen before.

[Dana Schwartz]

You do jewel tones lately, though. You might throw in a fucking purple.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At a goddamn girl.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Those are coming up. But I'm starting off. Look, I want us to just get our feet on the stage. I want us to know this has.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Been a long time.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Yeah, like, we were so young and innocent back during this rewind episode where it's just like walking on stage like, hey, what's up?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you guys going to rush the stage? Anyway, let's party.

[Dana Schwartz]

Like, I was 36 when this came out. Oh, my God. I wasn't even in Perry Menopause yet. That's insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

All right. Maybe I'll wear black too, for the first for Denver. Although it's already have happened when we're recording. Did we wear black?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did we?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Join the social media?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What do you think?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Join the rifle. Take the poll.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Everything's content.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Take the poll. Join the raffle.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

That's my version of an Internet poll.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Dana Schwartz]

Should we get into it?

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Let's do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Dana Schwartz]

Let's listen to Karen's story. Karen's first, this time about Bobby Jack Fowler. A sleek professional website makes you look very put together, even when you're wearing sweatpants and eating cereal out of a mug.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

And that's where Squarespace comes in.

[Dana Schwartz]

Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer your services and get paid all in one place.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

From consultations to experiences. Showcase your services with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business.

[Dana Schwartz]

And managing those payments is a breeze. In just a few clicks, you'll be able to accept payments with options like Klarna, Apple Payments, afterpay and more.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

You'll get paid on time with professional on brand invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools and.

[Dana Schwartz]

Get discovered faster with Squarespace's built in SEO tools. With meta descriptions and auto generated sitemaps, you'll rank higher in search results globally.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Go to squarespace.com murder for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer Code murder to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's squarespace.com murder code murder.

[Steven]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Dana Schwartz]

You've built a home you love. Now make sure it's secure.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

SimpliSafe Security doesn't just watch your home, it protects it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Unlike other systems that make you do the monitoring, SimpliSafe's team handles it for you. Even if you miss the alert, this.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Is a game changer. Their agents can step in right away, talking to the intruder, triggering a siren or turning on a Spotlight stopping a break in before it starts.

[Dana Schwartz]

There are no long term contracts or hidden fees and it's backed by a 60 day money back guarantee.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

So join the more than million Americans who trust Simply Safe with their home.

[Dana Schwartz]

Security every day since we've been on tour every week. I love the feeling of checking in on my app and like checking around my house making sure everything is okay. The fact that I can do that from my phone is such huge peace.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Of mind because ultimately it's like you want to be able to check in, know for a fact and not think about it anymore.

[Dana Schwartz]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

It's like the last thing anyone needs is more stress these days.

[Dana Schwartz]

Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

So right now our listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com fav that's simplisafe.com fav. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Look, at some point you gotta retire that couch you inherited from three roommates ago.

[Dana Schwartz]

Article makes Upgrading simple, stylish and worth.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Every Penny Article makes it easy to create a stylish, long lasting home and thanks to their online only model, they have some unbeatable prices too.

[Dana Schwartz]

They offer a curated range of mid century, modern, coastal and Scandi inspired pieces that not only shine on their own, but also pair seamlessly with other Article products.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Article takes great care in curating its collection. Focusing solely on high quality, meaningful pieces will stand the test of time. There's no filler, every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design and lasting value.

[Dana Schwartz]

And Article provides fast and affordable shipping across the US and Canada. You get to choose your delivery time and they'll keep you in the loop with updates along the way.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

With Article's 30 day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it. This peace of mind ensures you can invest in your home without hesitation. I have to tell you, we've talked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

About Article a lot, but the last.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Thing I got from Article was this little table that I've put in my front doorway and people compliment me on it every time they walk in my house. That Article table is definitely everyone's favorite and it's my favorite too.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh yeah, I get compliments on all my Article pieces constantly. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

To claim, visit article.commur and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's a R T I c l e.com murder to get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's my. I'm first, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I'm going to do this guy. I didn't really know that much about him. And then it turned out he was kind of like a. He's like. He's like. He's like a secret star. He's a man named Bobby Jack Fowler. And let's just start it here. I'm gonna tell it like a story on the rainy night every time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It scares the shit out of us when you guys do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't even start. Stephen. If there's ever been a queue jump in the world, it was that they don't even have any idea what this guy's deal is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, they already know.

[Steven]

Keep it. Look at him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now, she can't say he was a real nice, normal guy.

[Steven]

Cause clearly he's a fucking psychopath.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's just no. It's like, oh, did he do it? I'm not sure. Well, he is wearing. He is wearing overalls with no shirt. So I think. I think he might be guilty.

[Steven]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, he got caught mid something illegal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, either that or it's just like a denim tank top. Either way. Either way, he should go to jail. Oh, honey, you know what? That. And I'm sure you guys are very familiar with this, but I was up here, you know, it was probably a decade ago at this point. And I saw newspaper faces of meth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my favorite. Oh, my God. Obsessed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I got it. Which Stephen. Can you find that right now? Can you put that up right now? It was the best thing in the world. It was. The Oregonian did this thing of like people's mug chops across the years. So it starts out, it's like you're 16. You get arrested for whatever, shoplifting, nail polish. And then five mug shots in. You look like you're 64.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And like number two or three, you're like, oh, honey, quit right now. And you're still kind of cute.

[Steven]

You can moisturize.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You could come back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You could come back and like stay out of the sun. Cause we know you're sleeping. Facials just like, you're fine. And then at 4, you're like, fuck, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then it's like this 30 year old Bobby Jack liked meth. Let's just say that among other things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Method.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right. On the rainy night of January 27, 1995, Newport residents Jennifer Essen, who was 15, and Carlise, who is 16, are last seen leaving. Essen's boyfriend's house in the north end of town. They're headed toward Jennifer's house where she lived with her brother and her sister in law, Rocky and Barbara Tucker. They never arrive. Two and a half weeks later, loggers spot their bodies in heavy brush above Moolock beach, about a mile from where they were last seen. Both had been strangled. Five months later, on June 8, 1995. When nude. What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's my birthday.

[Steven]

Is it really?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is it okay? You like can't help but say that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, you have to say it when it's your birthday.

[Steven]

Is that your birthday? Sorry, but that's my birthday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Anyways. Tell me about a nude body. I was 15.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you remember what your birthday party was like in 1995?

[Georgia Hardstark]

15.

[Dana Schwartz]

15.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm. No, no, I think that was the last face of meth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, makes sense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it wasn't Great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right. Five months later, on Georgia's birthday, 1995, a nude, bleeding, 35 year old woman with a rope tied around her ankle jumps out of a second story window at the Tides Inn Motel and runs into the night screaming for help.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck. Yeah, that'.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the beginning of my film right there. Police are called and she tells them that she had met a man at the Anchor Bar. They had shared a couple drinks, they'd played the poker machine, you know how you do. And then they decide that they're gonna go on a trip to a nearby casino. But he says he wants to take a shower first and gets her to agree to come back to his motel room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, don't be that close to a naked stranger, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean right outside the bathroom door? Still not good. But what if I tell you he showers in his overalls, does that change?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, he's not naked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Once they're in the motel room alone, the man tells her he believes women like to be raped. When she argued. Yes, we know that's not right. When she argued, the man attacked her, punching her repeatedly, ripping her clothes off. Ties a rope around her ankle, saying he was going to put her in the ocean.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The victim, believing she was about to die, bit him and leapt out the window.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go girl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes. That man who was arrested on the scene was Bobby Jack Fowler.

[Steven]

This is where you were.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Steven.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then everyone goes, yes, I see it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's what I love. I sent him this, I don't know, seven minutes before I left to come to this theater. We never talk about anything, we never plan anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he knows that about Us, we're fucking. So it's basically our fault, but we'll never admit it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's always Steven's fault. All right. Fowler was a transient construction worker who traveled extensively across North America. He spent time rabbiting around from British Columbia.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I don't copy and paste right there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very strange. It makes it seem fun. And what he was doing is not fun. Now, from British Columbia, Florida, Iowa, Louisiana, Texas, Oregon, South Carolina, Arizona, Tennessee and Washington State, during his travels, he developed an extensive criminal record that included attempted murder, sexual assault, and firearms offenses. Just developing a record, but seemingly able to leave after he develops that record. For some reason, he liked alcohol, amphetamines, methamphetamines. He liked to travel far and wide and beat up cars and pickups, hitchhikers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That could sound like he, like, beat up cars.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He doesn't mind. Yeah. Once you do enough meth, you can beat up a car. And that is the pro side to meth that no one ever talks about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's one of the few bonuses.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, you look very old, but you can beat up a car. He spent lots of time in bars and motels. He believed that. He believed that women he came into contact with. With who were hitchhiking and hanging out in bars wanted to be sexually assaulted.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen, I hang out in fucking bars, and I don't want that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I feel like if we took a quick poll, he would be proven wrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So here's. We'll talk about a couple of his arrests. In 1969, Bobby Jack was charged. Bobby Jack. Bobby Jack was charged with murdering a man and a woman in Texas. But he was only convicted of discharging a firearm within city limits at.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Towards. Up inside of a person.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I guess.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How the. Does that work?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It wasn't a problem. For some reason, he also spent time in a Tennessee prison for sexual assault and attempted murder. Because, in the words of the investigator, he tied a woman up, beat the hell out of her with his. With her own belt, covered her up with brush, and left her to die. So during his 1995 trial for the sexual assault at the Tides Motel, he fought the kidnapping charge. So he had a real problem with the fact that he was being sexual assault. He was like, yeah, whatever. But kidnapping, he was very offended by because he claimed that that woman was in the motel room on her own accord and that she threw herself out the window voluntarily. So it shouldn't be his problem. And so because of that, he filed a $3 million lawsuit claiming violation of his. His civil liberties.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

He lost.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He Lost. Oh, good, good, good, good, good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So on January 8, 1996, Fowler is convicted of kidnapping in the first degree, attempted rape in the first degree, sexual abuse in the first degree, coercion, assault in the fourth degree and menacing. He was sentenced to 16 years, three months with the possibility of parole. But he died of lung cancer in prison in 2006.

[Steven]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But. There's a but.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's where it starts getting good or bad? Worse. Upsetting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, it's murdery, you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the police, because of this arrest, have Bobby Jack Fowler's DNA and they put it into the system. They put it into the motherboard, into the mainframe. So in May of 2012, Interpol informs the Canadian police that has received a positive hit from a DNA sample on a 16 year old murder. A 16 year old murder victim named Colleen McMillan. She had been murdered in 1974. And back then the Canadian Mounties had taken a piece of her blouse that they believed to have semen on it and they put it away and saved it. And so that when DNA testing came into possibility, they had that DNA test makeup waiting to be tested and in the system. So when fucking Bobby Jack Fowler's DNA comes through the system, Interpol finds that they are a match.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Motherboard lights up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right, the mainframe goes berserk. Colleen McMillan in 1974, had gone out to meet friends. The last thing she said to her little brother before she left the house was, don't tell mom, I'm hitchhiking. Her body was found a month later off a logging road 30 miles from her home. Home. She'd been strangled to death.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That brother did not live a good life after that, I bet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I think that was probably pretty dark. So the DNA belonged to American Roofer. That's how he's described in this article. Cut and paste. American Roofer, Bobby Feller. That's the new History Channel series, American Roofers. We're a fucking lunatic on meth walk goes around strangling everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's very weird, like you can describe him any way. And they picked Roofer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That hit was the oldest hit on a DNA sample in Interpol history.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So essentially from the murder of Colleen McMillan in Canada in 1974 to the attempted rape, kidnapping and sexual assault In Newport in 1995, there is a 21 year gap where Bobby Jack Fowler was driving around North America fucking shit up. So because they see that and they start connecting. So he basically is a, he is a big suspect in a lot of the trail of highway of Tears murders. Oh, so he's been. Colleen's murder is considered one of the highway of Tears murders, one of the earliest ones. But most of those murders are First Nation women, which is why Noah ever hears about them, because it's Native American or sorry, Native Canadian, which they call First Nation women up there. And they get no press, nobody talks about them. And that's why they had to start. They started a task Force in 2006 in Canada because so many women, especially First Nation, were disappearing along Highway 16, which cuts across British Columbia. It's an east west highway used by truckers and loggers. And so many women have disappeared off of this highway that they actually had to start a task force for it. And Bobby Jack Fowler is now connected to at least three of the murdered women that have been found on the highway of Tears. But also they're looking at him in connection with the May 3, 1992 killings of Melissa Sanders and Sheila Swanson, 17 and 19 respectively, both of Sweet Home. They had been camping with their family at Beverly beach, and they were Last seen at 11 o' clock outside of a grocery store in Beverly beach. And they were looking for a ride home. Their bodies were found two and a half months later, 50ft from a logging road. So basically the police believe Bobby Jack Fowler may have killed minimum 20 people between the US and Canada, but they think, they think it's more likely above 40.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he's a fucking. He's a regular old serial killer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's the, he's a legit, straight up serial killer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I never even heard of him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've never heard of him. And he, There was, there's, there's a bunch more. If you look him up. I would definitely, because it's, there's all these. They are trying to, they're trying to connect him to these murders. There's so many murders on the highway of Tears and he. They thought they had him for like 9, but then when they. Some of them, it's only circumstantial evidence, so they can actually only prove three, which is a fucking lot. But between there and then, all the shit that he did in America, he's like Ted Bundy level serial killer that no one's ever heard of and, you know, did a lot of stuff right here in Portland. So. Congratulations, everybody. Well done. Bobby Jack Bella.

[Steven]

Good job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Steven]

Good job, good job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we're back.

[Dana Schwartz]

Karen, do you have any updates?

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

No new updates on Fowler himself. He is still considered a suspect in multiple murders along the highway of Tears, but nothing has been proven since his death in 2006. Very frustrating. So Highway 16 has been since 2017. There's been progress in making it safer, like subsidized bus services along Highway 16, new cell towers covering those long stretches of dead zones that have been there. They're meaningful changes, but they're just first steps. The Canadian National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and girls released its final report in 2019, officially calling this violence a form of genocide and issuing hundreds of calls for justice. So there's been a lot of community led action. Indigenous led groups like the Tears to Hope Society create growing awareness and healing spaces for the people that have been affected by these murders. They do things like relay runs, community safety workshops. And if you want to know more about getting involved, you can go to tears to hope society.com and check out what they offer. I was very moved because last year at the Emmys, Defero Wunatai, who was nominated as outstanding lead actor in a comedy for Reservation Dogs, which, if you haven't seen that show, it is brilliant. It is amazing. He went there hair, he wore a black tuxedo with a red hand over his face. So his first, like big moment at an award show, he went and represented missing and murdered indigenous women. I just think that's like incredible. I saw it and I was like, you are so badass and this is so important. And you like, like eyes on the prize for him in that way. And so many people when you look up, I was just trying to make sure I had all the information right. All the Google searches are, why does the guy have the red hand at the Emmys? So people saw it and were like, what is this about? Like, just imagine how many people he made aware of this, like insane genocide as the native people believe it to be. It's like it is. No one's doing anything about murders that have been happening for years and years and years.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, I'm glad it's getting that title.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

But there's a long way to go. Canadian and U.S. governments really need to serve indigenous populations better. These people deserve justice and they deserve safety. Yeah, it's a heavy story.

[Dana Schwartz]

We didn't know yet at live shows and even at regular not live shows to end with a positive story. So these are just both bad, both terrible.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

It's April 2017. We were just getting on our live show feet, learning these lessons of if there's a drink special at the bar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have to have a stage high.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Enough so people can't jump onto it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's rules. There's there's ways to do things.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Okay, so here's George's story. Same show about the Klein Falls hatchet attack. It's that time of year when your outfit needs to do everything. Mornings are cold, afternoons are hot, and your wardrobe is confused.

[Dana Schwartz]

Quince makes it easy to stay warm and look pulled together without paying luxury prices.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Quince has the clothes you'll want to wear all season long.

[Dana Schwartz]

They have all the elevated essentials for fall. Think 100% Mongolian cashmere from $50, washable silk tops and skirts and perfectly tailored denim, all at prices that feel too good to be true. So I just got from Quince the washable silk dress. Like the little tank dress in burgundy. It's so perfect for fall. It's so sexy and pretty and looks so expensive even though it wasn't. And I just throw a little like jacket over it or my leather jacket for nighttime, put some flats on or some high heels if you can imagine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then at the end of the.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Night you can throw that thing in the washer machine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's all I need.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

The washer mach keep it classic, cozy and cool this fall with long lasting staples from quince.

[Dana Schwartz]

Go to quince.com mfm for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com mfm to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Dana Schwartz]

Quince.com mfm Goodbye. Every cat owner, including myself, swears that their house quote doesn't smell like cat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And yes, it always kind of does.

[Dana Schwartz]

With Pretty Litter, you'll never have to think about it again.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Pretty Litter is formulated with silica gel crystals that are safe you for for cats and people alike.

[Dana Schwartz]

Advanced odor control means your home smells like home, not a litter box.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

It also helps monitor your cat's health, detecting abnormalities in your cat's urine by testing acidity and alkalinity levels and the visible presence of blood. I mean, we were joking in the beginning, but Pretty Litter actually does solve this problem.

[Dana Schwartz]

It does.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

I used to have cats too, so I have no judgment. But I mean, like, that is a tough problem to solve. And this is a cat litter that not only has solved that problem, but a couple more.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, Vince and I are always like, it doesn't smell like cat pee in here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? It doesn't look like, like we're always.

[Dana Schwartz]

Obsessed about it and worried about it and sniffing around the house and like knowing that Pretty Litter is there and just taking care of it. And we don't Even have to think about it is huge peace of mind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Right. Now, save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy@pretty litter.com.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

MFM that's pretty litter.com MFM to save 20% on your first order and get.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A free cat toy.

[Dana Schwartz]

Pretty Litter.com MFM Pretty Litter cannot detect.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions are supply C site for details.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

We're all back into our fall routines, but that doesn't mean your meals have to be stuck on repeat.

[Dana Schwartz]

Hungryroot keeps things fresh with recipes, groceries and snacks tailored to you.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Hungryroot's like having your own personal shopper and nutritionist all wrapped into one. They'll take care of the weekly grocery shopping and recommend groceries and meals tailored to you.

[Dana Schwartz]

Once you tell them about your goals and preferences, they fill your cart with personalized recommendations. And those recommendations get smarter as Hungryroot learns more about what you did or didn't like.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

I mean, I'm looking at the Tasatsiki chicken shawarma power bowl and literally I'm like, that could take care of everything. It takes what, 10 minutes to make.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you could make that.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

I could make it and then I would be done and I could actually have it for lunch probably the next day.

[Dana Schwartz]

Absolutely. I believe in you.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Thank you. There's nothing like this where it's like you're so sick of ordering out, you're not going to be able to just make something from scratch.

[Dana Schwartz]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Hungry Root is the answer.

[Dana Schwartz]

Absolutely. So take advantage of this exclusive offer for a limited time, get 40% off your first box, plus get a free item in every box for Life.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Go to hungryroot.comunit and use code MFM.

[Dana Schwartz]

That'S hungryroot.com MFM code MFM to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your Choice for Life.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Hungryroot.com MFM Code MFM Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, sit back, relax. This one's got a little something for everyone. You're gonna like this one.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Think so?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I hope so. I don't know. I just said that might not be true. So this one was suggested to me by our friend Kat Solon, who's here, who a lot of you guys have have her shirt design on. So a lot of the stay out of the forest one and the regular.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'Re an occult call your dad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's all cat's design. She's very talented and so she suggests. I was like, what do I do? And she's like, read this book called A Strange Piece of Paradise. It's by a woman named Terri Jens and it is about the Klein Falls State park hatchet attack.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What the fuck?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what it looks like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's that guy's picture Elvis have to do with it?

[Steven]

I'll tell you all about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kleinfall State park is on the banks of the Deschutes river in central Oregon. And it's basically you guys go there for somewhere there. The park provides fishing access to the river. In 1976, the Transamerica Bicycle Trail was the first bicycle touring route to cross the US traveling between Astoria, Oregon and Yorktown, Virginia. Mostly rural, two lane highway. It was an 80 day. It was called the Bike Centennial Trail because it was a bicentennial and it was like, ride this trail.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was a fun play on words. Yeah, I get it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It took you along mostly rural two lane highways. It was an 80 day, 4200 mile trip. So in 1977, two Yale undergraduates, Terry Jens and Shana Weiss, are spending the summer before their junior year riding the Bike Centennial Trail. They were seven days in and they stopped to camp at Klein Falls State park, which you're not actually allowed to park, to camp there. But they didn't know that it's near Redmond, Oregon. Both. When they get there, they mention having a creepy feeling like they're being watched. But they both ignored that feeling because it's like, what are you gonna be like? Let's get the fuck out of here. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nah, if you're just like, I have a feeling. And it could be like a deer, right? So no, it's just like a really.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Busy body deer that's just up in your fucking business. When did you guys check in?

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

You're not allowed to camp here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is my area.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you don't want to see what I do at night. That's why you can't camp here. It gets real weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's somehow. That deer has curtains.

[Steven]

You.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Busy body deer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Busy body deer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, they settle in for bed around 10:30, and then around 11:30pm they're awakened when a truck drives into and over their tent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

They think that at first it must be like an accident, a bunch of drunk teenagers. But Terry expects to hear them freaking out, but instead hears what sounds like a single person get out of the truck. Then she hears Shayna scream, leave us alone. And hears the first blow of the hatchet. Then. Then she hears Six quick more blows. And she says, at that point, I knew we were being murdered by a single psycho. And then he turns his attention to Terry. She says he's above me. I'm thrashing from side to side, and I catch a glimpse of a piece of wood. I feel a hunk of cold metal and start to lose consciousness. At that point, she said she knew she was going to die. But a voice in her head said, I'm too young to die. So she opens her eyes, and standing over her was a meticulously dressed cowboy straddling me on each side. I could see the boots, the pant legs, the shirt meticulously tucked into his pants. But his what, sorry?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like a type a cowboy.

[Steven]

That what you said?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I hate the idea of that so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven, put that up again. That's where that comes in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ugh. I hate his pelvis.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

See, I feel like he would have gotten those jeans tailored for sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, well, she said that they were, like, perfectly, you know, around his boots in the exact way. They're just like, not a. She said not a bulge of his cowboy shirt was out of place. Everything was in place.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Even though he had just fucking driven over people and hacked them with a hatchet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm. But she said he couldn't. She couldn't see his face. His head disappeared in the darkness. But she said she could see the ax or hatchet poised above her. And he brings it down slowly, like as if to, you know, what's it called?

[Dana Schwartz]

Line it up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Aim. And she grabs the hatchet right here, like she's praying, and says to him, please go away. Take whatever you want, but go away and leave us alone. And he fucking leaves.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You got questions, go for it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you think? He was so fucking, like, tightly wound. He's like. Well, she did ask politely. I want her murder her so badly. But she has such good manners.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, maybe. I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I also, there's something about, like, a cowboy. They're supposed to be this certain way. You know what I mean? They're supposed to be like, yes, ma'. Am. Come on, let me serve you some beans. Like it's all supposed to be. You know what I mean? Jump on my horse with me. They're not supposed to fucking. They don't even think they use hatchets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. I don't know. I don't think they do, do they? I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got it. I think they would.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They need to. That's for the logger or the house houseman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. She feels around the tent for her contacts. Puts them in with bloody fingers.

[Steven]

What? How?

[Karen Kilgariff]

How impossible. I stand there for 20 minutes in my bathroom. I don't mean to question the victim, but I want more information about those contact lenses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then she finds her flashlight. Listen, I don't fucking wear contacts. You tell me, okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're fucking impossible to put in and take out. One time I thought one was stuck.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

To my eye forever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it was very upsetting the idea that you would even try to do contacts in a tent. Who are they? What? Okay, sorry, sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is really triggering.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, I'm very upset from the cowboy thing. Then you went straight into bloody contacts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Carrie, Karen doesn't want to fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm. Right now I'm that deer. Like, what the fuck?

[Steven]

What the fuck is going on over there? You're disgusting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wear glasses for the weekend. Your gritty hands and your eyes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bloody, bloody, bloody, gritty hands. Fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, I'm a little bit keyed up in this coffee right now.

[Steven]

Oh, we are both so excited.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But never getting one of these.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Show mode. No, give it back to me. My lifeblood.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your life contact. Your lifeblood.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't go back for that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm gonna go. Okay, Stephen, cut that off. Okay, she gets her flashlight, she gets out of the crush tent. She sees headlights down the park road and she's like, is that the fucking maniac killer or is that just someone driving through? So she runs over to it and I'm like, fuck it, I gotta figure it out. It's two teenagers driving through the park. Worst case scenario, what if they were the killers? It was a couple, they just gotten in a fight. Cause teenagers just, you know, get in fights. Seriously? She said that? I'm serious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they're all like, arms crossed, like, why are you so bloody?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then it's like.

[Steven]

Can you imagine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Being like a 16 year old girl and you're mad at your boyfriend? Cause he talked to this girl that night. Like she just asked for a sticker and he gave her one. She's like, here, I'm lady. And then suddenly, fucking bloody person.

[Steven]

Can you help me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those teenagers either got married or broke.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Up, right then they were like, well, I guess it's not that important that she asked you for a cigarette anymore in the scheme of things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now that I realize I have some perspective as a 16 year old now that I know hatchet murders are happening 50ft away from me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's see. So the two teenagers are driving through the park. They find her covered in blood. She flags them down and then they Were like, get in. And she was like, no, my friend. Come follow me. And my friend is here. And so the teens follow her, and they find the friend by the river, and she's lost consciousness. Her head is all fucking hit up. And then they bring her to the car, and the teens take them both to the hospital in critical condition. Guess what? What? They both survive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank God. Right? Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wasn't going to tell you that before.

[Dana Schwartz]

I told you about all the hatchet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit, just because then you would be able to breathe a sigh of relief, and I didn't want you to do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's good. That's good storytelling, right? Yes. It's tension. You use that tension. Also, it would have been such a bummer if she had died, because we.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Were riffing like crazy right before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No one wanted to really laugh. But now you can laugh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, now we can do whatever it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is now the deer want. But you didn't know that you weren't gonna die. We just did it. Cause that's what we're like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what we do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what we're like, da, da, da. Okay, there. Shayna's suffering from serious head injuries. And that's the friend. And Terry has a broken right leg, two broken ar. One of which is severely hacked by the ax. And there's a tire print left temporarily on her body cam. You fucking deal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry. Is that the girl that talked to the teenagers?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Two broken arms and a broken leg.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She tried to. She fucking still ran over to the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Cause she was on like she was in crazy adrenaline mode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, enough to put her fucking contacts in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Apparently when adrenaline hits, the first thing you want to do is touch her fucking iris a bunch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you think she's got her saline solution? No, I'm just being an asshole.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's got that. She swirls them around a little bit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that what you do? Investigators have no description of the car, no eyewitnesses, no sign of the weapon, no fingerprints. So aside from sketches made of the truck's tire tracks, the investigation quickly goes cold. So in the years following, both women recover. Shayna has permanently impaired vision, loss of memory of the tech, and doesn't want to fucking talk to a about it. And they stop talking to each other, but. I know. But Terry goes back to Yale, finishes she's just like, a badass. Fifteen years later, she goes back to fucking find the person who did it and writes this goddamn book about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's her book?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can show the other one, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I Got to read that book. Is that her?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have to say, don't listen to the audiobook. Read it. It's the audiobooks. I'm sorry if. Yeah, don't you recommend the book?

[Steven]

Book.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Read it right before bed. It's. It'll give you nightmares. Yeah, read it. It's just because the woman who reads it is southern and it just like. It doesn't make sense in. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because you're just like listening to a southern accent. The woman isn't Southern.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, that's. I realized I just bought the Errol Morris book that's about the one that's not the one that you did. The story about Dr. Jeffrey McDonald is that you did Sam Shepard or Jeffrey McDonald.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sam Shepard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So I bought the audiobook about Jeffrey MacDonald and the guy that's reading it sounds like an alien that's trying to blend in with human beings. And it is so distracting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is really. It's an art form, I've realized for fucking years and years. So she goes fucking back. But after three years, the statute of limitations has expired.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On attempted murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On fucking attempted murder. Three years, Oregon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On being a super neat cowboy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On running over people in their tent that are sleeping and hatcheting them. Fuck, three years, you're free. Yeah. So it's unsolved. So in 92, she realized she's suffering from PTSD and she goes back to investigate. She goes to Redmond with a video camera and just starts fucking knocking on doors. And she says, remember me? I'm this girl. And everyone is like, oh, fuck. Like everyone had. It really had hit them because it was a really nice town and they were so embarrassed that that had happened in their town. They were just like, shit, man. Like, we're sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that became their hometown murder, essentially. They were like, did you hear about that fucking crazy shit that happened?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So she starts to comb police files and interview anyone who had talked to her. Nearly all the official records of the attack, interviews, physical evidence, crime scene photos had been purged, but she's able to find a 30 page report. And even that took a lot of effort. The first suspect she zeros in on is a convicted child molester named Richard Wayne Godwin. He was known to have killed a five year old girl and kept her skull as a candle holder. He's in prison for that murder and all the clues about the attack seem to point in his direction. And of course I'm like, it's him. Like anyone who comes up, it's Him?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A female relative of his was camping at Klein Falls State park that night. And it's possible he was pissed at her and did this attack, but various details convinces her that it wasn't him. But he is up for parole. So she fucking hell knows that and goes in and proceeds to intervene on his parole hearing to oppose an early release.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Which worked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's nice. Yeah, she just. All she did is walk. Gonna go. Just quick note. Candle holder, skull, you guys. See you guys later. The.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Do you need me to do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So with the help of the teenage girl who was in the rescue car that night, who the night she was attacked, as well as other locals who had. Everyone was like, we know who Dudu. Terry finds out about a local man who was a teenager at the time of her attack.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Less than 24 hours after the attack, Dirk Duran beat his teenage girlfriend so badly that she was put in the hospital. Her parents tried to file charges against him, but they were told that since they were both minors to just forget it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's the best way to deal with anything, really. That's ab. That's absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The judge told them that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, well, he would know best, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Teenagers, they're always beating the outfit. They always beat the. Out of each other girlfriend and try to drown them in front of an entire. Entire bunch of people. She, the girl tells Terry that the night of the attack, she and Dirk had gotten in a huge fight that had been broken up by her dad around 11pm that Dirk had left in a rage. And after the attack, the time of the attack, showed up at her house high on drugs. She remembered that a tool. And the next day he beat the shit out of her. She remembers that a toolbox in Dirk's pickup truck where he always stored a hatchet. And that toolbox was missing. And then she realized something else was different about his truck that night or in that time. She said, I noticed he had changed the tires on the front of his pickup. She visited the scene of the alleged attack and said she recognized the tire tracks from Dirk's car. Without a shadow of a doubt. She said, I knew it was him. Shit, he could turn from this. Really nice. Yes, ma'. Am. Thank you, ma'.

[Steven]

Am.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To Satan in his eyes. I mean, it was just like two different people night and day. And then Terry found out from locals that he had an ax that had. Or like a hatchet or an axe that had his initials carved in it that went missing after the attack. And he told people that he hurt someone with it. And had to get rid of it. The cops question him about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who, sorry? Who did he tell?

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was like, anyone who would listen. Every person she fucking interviewed. This book is tits. Like, anyone who fucking. Like, it's legit. Anyone who will listen. She fucking. He fucking is like, he just Moses.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Up to the bar, hey, y'.

[Steven]

All.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because he knew he was a suspect and everyone believed it, so he would just bring it up with people because everyone. His nickname name became Dirk the hatchet man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep. Dirk Duran the hatchet Man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that actually fits really nicely, I have to say.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's not like Dirk Duran, the. Like the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The guy that ran over some gals, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dirk Duran, the, like, sword man. That's why immediate suspect. And everyone thinks he did it. Got the name. He'd been. Okay, so he'd been adopted at a young age, and his parents were pillars of the community, and they ignored their adopted sons of many abnormalities and issues, including rage and bullying. And Terry suspects that law enforcement did at the time as well. Because his dad was like, a big man. Terry is told that Dirk's mom had always coddled him, including doing his laundry for him and making sure that his signature cowboy outfit was always meticulous, Even making cowboy shirts for him.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Oh, handmade.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mom made cowboy shirts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to talk about when you date a guy and his mom does his. Did his laundry, and you're like, oh, no, get out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get out right now. In theaters now. Get out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is one of the. Oh, yeah, I do ask every guy I date or dated. What? When? So when did you start doing your laundry? Not even today. Because I want to know if you're a fucking child.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're like, I'm not sure, mom. And then they bring her in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

During the investigation, Dirk is given two polygraphs. So the investigation gets opened back up because this bitch is fucking stirring some shit up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, girl. During the investigation, Dirk's given two polygraphs, Fails them both. And when the examiner tells him this, he cowers and starts bawling. When he's told, reaches out holding the hands or arm to arm. We don't know. Saying, I didn't do it, but maybe I don't believe that Terry works with Dirk.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You do know you can't. You can say nothing. That's also an option. No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or you can admit to it because the statute of motherfucking limitations is up. So you can be like, yeah, fucking did it. Son of a bitch. Okay. Terry worked with victims advocates groups, rights to change the statute of limitations on Attempted murder in Oregon. It's eliminated in 96. So thank Terry, among other people, for that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there's none at all. None at all anymore. Tell your friends. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's not retroactive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, well, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, he served four years in jail for a crime he committed against a hunting partner. The reason he's nailed is because I clearly copied and paste that. Because I would never say that is because. Because that she'd brought him to the attention of the police and they needed to fucking do something. They were watching him carefully. Ultimately, though, she's never able to prove conclusively that he's the attacker. And then. So she said, and the book is really fucking amazing because as she's doing this, she's, like, finally coming to terms with all what happened, because she used to make. You know how we do. Like, yeah, I got attacked when I was, you know, like. And showing the scar and being like, this is a badge of honor. And look how I got past this and I'm successful. And then suddenly she's like, I have ptsd. So she goes back. So she learned. She said, I learned that traumatic memory gets stored in the brain differently than other memories. When a trauma occurs, it isn't stored in a narrative with a beginning, a middle, and an end. It gets stored in fragments like shards of broken glass. So one of the things that I found profoundly healing for everyone to do is to put those fragments together in a narrative with a beginning, a middle, and an end so you can tell the story of it. You can incorporate it and begin to make sense of it. So that's what she did with this book, even though she couldn't get this guy to justice. And that is Terry Gentz and her book, A Strange Piece of Paradise.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice, Terry Gentz. I love that because that must have been so hard. That must have been the hardest thing in the world to walk away from, like, a successful life and pretending that you're good with everything and diving back into the deepest shit and putting it together like you could just keep going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she was successful and doing well, but she just wouldn't fucking let go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But she kind of probably wasn't doing it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, Totally deep down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's awesome.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well done, Terry. Gents.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you know Terry or work with her, please tell her we say hi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Should we.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was a good story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Okay, we're back. Do you have updates for that horrible story?

[Dana Schwartz]

Kind of. So Dirk Duran was a pseudonym that Terry used for her Attacker in of front her book. But in coverage of this case, some media outlets have used his real name. But I wanted to flag that Terry chose to give him a fake name because she was wary of giving him attention and. Or potentially endangering women who might reach out looking to reform him. So just. Just a little update.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Wow, that's a really smart and unbelievable kind of like, thing to be aware of that there are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There is.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Is this kind of like, part of the population that has this very strange attraction to these horrifying men.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's just very smart.

[Dana Schwartz]

Mind boggling. Mind boggling. All right, well, we got so lucky. And we got a great hometown from Portland. From an audience member. This is a story about her weekend with Susan. Monica.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Should we figure out a hometown to hear from people? Can you, if possible, can we just bring the lights up a tiny bit so we can just see?

[Georgia Hardstark]

We know the show's almost over when my tissue is.

[Steven]

Oh, my God. It goes all the way up there. Hi. I didn't know. You didn't know this is the third show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, but I didn't. I honestly hadn't seen that part.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look. And there's Steven right there. And there he.

[Steven]

And then he was there and they were there. You see him?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. I still can't see him because I haven't put my contacts in. I refuse to do it anymore.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Out of your hands and get it together.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Does anybody have a good hometown? Murderer.

[Steven]

That's a good story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't pick. Karen picks. Karen picks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you promise?

[Steven]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Come up these stairs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I got a thing. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi.

[Steven]

Let's give this person a hand. Hi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's your name?

[Steven]

Name's Nicole.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nicole, come here. It's Nicole, everybody.

[Steven]

Hi, Nicole. Clap for Nicole. Hi. I'm gonna hug you. Hi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, just.

[Steven]

Hi. Feel so wrong.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

Cause my sister Angela is the one that brought me, and she turned me on to you guys. She's amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, Angela, do you want to sneak up here like a cartoon character?

[Steven]

Please give me Angela.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't roll up on the stage high, Quaker, or I'll fucking pull a gun on you. You should have seen the way my tone changed last night. It went from like, girl, look at this dress.

[Steven]

Look at this dress, everyone. That's Siamese. Let's walk it. Walk it around. Walk it around.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. For one second, I thought you were gonna fall off the stage. Turn. That scared the out of me. Yeah. Okay, guys, the sisters don't know how.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To talk into microphones, but Nicole.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And what's Your nervous.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's your name?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm Angela. Angela.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Angela. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, try it again. Angela.

[Steven]

Yeah. Yes, Stephen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, but Nicole's telling the story, and then Angela's gonna do backup if need be.

[Steven]

Yes, I will. I'm the Karen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's a Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Clearly, I'm the Karen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got it.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

So I have to be completely honest. So a few years, what, five years probably, I was in the throes of drug addiction. So I spent a lot of time in and out of jail, which to interrupt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's part of why I love you guys, because you're so honest about it. And we know that we can be successful because we've gotten past it.

[Steven]

That's right. Thank you a lot. That is a big thing. Welcome back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're glad you're here for real.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

In one of my throws of let's still be drug addicts, I ended up in jail for a weekend. It was the longest weekend of my life because I ended up in jail with Susan. What is her last name?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Susan? Monica.

[Andrea Gunning]

The pig farm lady.

[Steven]

What? Yes.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

And she was from Klamath Falls, Grants Pass area. And I ended up in jail with her and I ended up having to be sober.

[Steven]

That sucks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was a good one.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

It was terrible. And she scared the living crap out of me. She is. She's a tall woman and she is completely hairless. She has no hair at all whatsoever. And I was completely unaware of the situations going on in my own town because I was so consumed with myself. I was like, give me drugs or give me nothing. So I ended up in jail with her. She's completely hairless. Apparently she had fed bodies to her pigs.

[Steven]

What? Whose bodies?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't even know how many victims she had. I don't think she had like.

[Steven]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so did one of my friends. Hold on a second.

[Steven]

You know what? That's not cool. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love when I get a chance to do this.

[Steven]

Yes, that is her. Stop talking to them. I'm so sorry. But go ahead, Go ahead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You tell the story.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

I ended up with her and she had court and they came and got her and they gave her a wig. And she was mad about the wig because it wasn't her natural hair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They made her wear a wig. Wait, sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she had like alopecia or something?

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

Yeah, something where she was completely hairless and was losing. We consistently by the time I met her.

[Andrea Gunning]

Sher will do that to you.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

By the time I met her, she said she had lost like 50 pounds or something. She was just skin.

[Dana Schwartz]

Who did she kill?

[Karen Kilgariff]

She Killed workers on her farm, from what I remember.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

And then used their EBT food cards after they were already dead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What did she.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She was also on meth.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

She was on something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What did she. What was she like when you were in jail?

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

Okay, so here's the creepiest. Is that because I was so sober, I was so scared of her. Once I realized who she was and there was only two other girls in there, it wasn't like it was a big dorm. It's four little beds with no tv. And it's the weekend. You're not getting out till Monday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jail, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I found the right right now.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

I was on the top bunk and I was reading. Since I've been in and out of jail so much. The officer was kind of new, so they always left me a pile of books. Well, I. Yeah.

[Steven]

So nice, right? So considerate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is nice.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

And I was laying on the top bunk and my book fell down. And I was too scared to move a muscle. So she gets up, she gets my book, she puts it on top of my bunk with me and then tucks me into bed.

[Steven]

I died. I died.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did it look like a big thumb was tucking you into bed?

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

It was like this horrible blanket. This not warm. This crap blanket. I'm in these clothes, but smell like someone else.

[Steven]

This murderer, this pig murderer, not even like a good one that used a.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

Gun, like one that fed people to pig. Has now put a blanket on top of me and tucked me in for the night.

[Dana Schwartz]

She's like, night, night.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

No, what she says is, are you doing okay? Are you coming down okay? I'm like, yes, thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I roll over. You're helping me so much.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

So the whole weekend, she told me about her murder. She showed me all her court documents, all the papers she had in the jail cell. She was constantly, constantly complaining. She needed, like, this special meal with, like, no meat. Everything has to be kosher.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And.

[Steven]

I was like, vegan. The Pearoni. Yeah.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

And she showed me all her paperwork. She's like, they don't know. But I told them the body's here. And they won't listen to me. I'm like, who's not listening to you?

[Steven]

Tell them where the body is.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

She's showing me all these drawings and everything. And this other woman so she can play the dice game. It was just the worst weekend of my life.

[Andrea Gunning]

But the highlight of my life is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When I don't answer the call from prison. Cause I don't have any money to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Answer her prison call.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a collect call.

[Andrea Gunning]

So her Voicemail is just roommates with pig farm lady.

[Steven]

Roommates with pig farm lady. And I'm like, oh, my God, Yes. That's so sister. I get out of jail.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

She like, so tell me what happened.

[Steven]

Tell me everything. Okay. Are you gonna get clean?

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

Is everything going?

[Steven]

No. Tell me more about the pig lady. Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rock fucking bottom right there.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

And I will tell you guys, that's the last time I've ever been in jail.

[Steven]

I'm proud of you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, you know what? Here's the thing. If you went back to jail after that, it's just gonna be a disappointment. It's not gonna be as good at all.

[Steven]

Yeah, of course. You're like, they left me Shakespeare, but.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't even care.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who cares?

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

She was, like, motherly. You know what I mean? She wanted to talk to everyone, find out what their problems were. She wanted to, like, girl chat at night. I'm like, leave me the fuck alone. I'm so sorry for whatever I did to be here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're, like, cold and hot and sweating, and you're just like, yes.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

And she's just, like, talking. She's showing you all her paperwork. She's like, and there's so much more that they don't know.

[Steven]

I'm like, what don't they know? I'm gonna testify against you. This is how this.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

I'm trying to, like, stay calm the whole weekend, you know?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'm coming down with agitators.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you're prison wives, you have to testify against your prison wives. That's a clause.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There could be a clause.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

I'm not sure exactly what it is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, what if you did fall in love with her, though?

[Steven]

Oh, my God. How'd you guys meet?

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

It was just the longest weekend. By the time Monday came around and I knew I was getting to leave, I was like, well, have a good life and good luck with court. Because she is convinced that she's going to go home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

She just kept saying, well, I'm going to get to go home. They're not going to be able to do anything. It's fine. They didn't even find all the evidence.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm like, wait, her name is Susan. What? Susan, Monica. Susan, Monica. Two first names. I hate that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pig farm killer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A pig farm killer. And she would feed the people that worked for her to her pigs. Did she kill them beforehand?

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

In one incident, she told me that she had killed the guy and then didn't know what to do with the body. So she just took it outside to the barn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

Is what she told me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

She's like, I just let you know. I just let the pigs take care of it. They'll eat anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't feel bad about eating fucking pig anymore. It's like, you know.

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And did she tell you that story?

[Karen Kilgariff]

As she was tucking you in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Laid the body gently into the pig Menken. Is that warm enough for you?

[Steven]

Did you know pigs will eat anything? They will eat anything, apparently. Yeah. That is amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is a really amazing story. Nicole, right?

[Nicole (audience member sharing story)]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nicole, everybody.

[Steven]

Yes. What was your name again? An Angela. Backup.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sister. Sister.

[Steven]

You guys were. That was incredible. Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'll steal that from you.

[Steven]

Oh, thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You guys were great, right? That was. Yeah. Yeah.

[Steven]

Come here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love your.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone keeps asking me, who's watching Elvis. Oh, I forgot to get a cap sitter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love that. That was a sister team. That's fun. That's good times. That's fun times. That's exactly what happened last night. Except for the second one. Was not invited on the stage.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Except it wasn't terrifying and I didn't think my life was ending.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then army roll just. I'll never forget it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. That was beautiful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She did turn out to be very nice and apologized on Twitter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Lovely, lovely ladies. Okay, we're back.

[Dana Schwartz]

Karen, want to give us any updates on this case?

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

There aren't really any updates, Susan. Monica is still in prison serving her 50 year sentence. She got convicted in 2015. And basically, it's just. That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Just as awful as. As it was.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

All right, well, so this episode was originally titled Live at Revolution hall, but if we were naming it today, perhaps we would call it.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

We can call it I can see your auras, which is what Georgia told the audience because she had had so much yerba mate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't remember that at all.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What am I. I'm like, what am.

[Dana Schwartz]

I going to caffeinate myself with. With this trip?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

That's the great mystery you have to solve for yourself.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, we could also call it.

[Dana Schwartz]

I love this get out in theaters now. When Karen says something about guys whose mom does their laundry, get out of that relationship.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Don't date guys that. Whose mom still do their laundry.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, still or ever. Like, yuck.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Come on.

[Dana Schwartz]

All right, well, thanks for listening to another episode of Rewind and go to my favorite murder.com live and see if there's any tickets left for any of our upcoming shows. We'd Love to see you there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Dana Schwartz]

Now here's our goodbye from the 2017 Revolution hall in Portland. Did you hear that?

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I like it.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Let Mimi sing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Portland, we adore you so much. Thank you so much for your support. Honestly, I've been telling everybody this anecdote, but it really is true. You guys, you guys were there so early for this podcast and you were so vocal and you were so in it. And one of the first pieces of Stay Sexy, Don't Get Murdered graffiti that we ever saw that got posted to Twitter was from Portland, Oregon, and it really meant the world to us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You guys love your vandalism and we love you for it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You vandalize in our name. Thank you kindly for that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You've graffitied our hearts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Permanently. Tattoo style. We love you. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Bye, you guys.

[Steven]

Thank you.

[Hunting for Answers narrator]

Short on time, but big on trip. True crime. On a recent episode of the podcast Hunting for Answers, I highlighted the story of 19 year old Lachey Dungey. But she never knocked on that door. She never made it inside. And that text message would be the last time anyone would ever hear from her. To hear this and more true crime stories, open your free iHeartradio app. Search hunting for Answers and listen now.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife, Caroline.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me.

[Andrea Gunning]

How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?

[Georgia Hardstark]

The fact that you lied is absolutely horrific.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And quite frankly, I question how many other women are out there that may bring forward allegations in the future.

[Andrea Gunning]

Listen to betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that.

[Georgia Hardstark (rewind host)]

Meant for my heart. Podcasts and Rococo Punch this is the Turning River Road. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of a beautiful abuse. But in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.