Eric Ryan (3:06)

Oh, I love Target. So it's a, it's a mutual love affair.

Sam Parr (3:10)

You've like launched brands with them, like even from the start.

Sean Ogle (3:12)

Right.

Sam Parr (3:13)

You have like a kind of a unique relationship with them, is that right?

Eric Ryan (3:15)

I do. I mean, what we did back in, oh God, 2002, when we pitched this idea of designer commodities, like, no. And it was at a time where no mass retailer worked with startups. And so through a lot of hail Mary passes and some, some good luck, we were able to be the first to kind of go in there. And it's just, it's been an amazing partnership ever since.

Sam Parr (3:34)

So can we do your, your process before we brainstorm the ideas? I want to hear the, the process you outlined. And I took a couple notes. I can kind of prompt you, but you basically had told me these four, three or four things that you do when you go, go in. Because I was like, you've done this not once, not twice, but three times. And I was like, can I nerd out with you a little bit?

Eric Ryan (3:51)

Yeah. And as you get to hear, I'm really annoying to go to a grocery store with. To me it's like the super bowl of commerce. So every time I'm in a mass retailer, a grocery store or drugstore, I'm always hunting. So I came out of, I have a really simple model and it was built off of this idea of what I learned in advertising, which is how do you take a really deep consumer insight and translate to great creative execut? So my kind of core thesis as an entrepreneur is to look for these, you know, like you said, these kind of white spaces where there's a sea of sameness, and it just kind of smells ripe to go in and do different. And what I do is I look for a cultural shift or a big macro trend that. That that category has missed. And then in between that and where the category is, is the business opportunity. So in the case of Method, there was, like, two big culture shifts I found. One was this idea of lifestyling of the home. You know, this is back in 2002. You know, you look at a dish soap more than you use it, but nobody thought about these products as part of, like, the emotional connection to your home and, you know, making decorative.

Sean Ogle (4:54)

Basically looking good on your sink. So like, I keep my Method soap next to my. My faucet, so just, like, looking good when it's on my counter.

Eric Ryan (5:01)

Exactly. Which is because you look at it more than you actually use it. So it's. It's a pretty meaningful part of the experience of buying a dish soap at that time.

Sam Parr (5:08)

Did you see. What else did you see where you're like, huh, that's new. That's new. But. And then you. You applied that to dish up.

Sean Ogle (5:14)

So what.

Sam Parr (5:14)

What else were people doing that you. Where you noticed the shift before you did?

Eric Ryan (5:18)

It was really in personal care. And so a lot of, like, I'm. I always say, like, I'm a bit of a thief too. Like, I don't steal from our competition, but I try to steal from as far away as possible. So in Method, there's two areas. I stole. I stole from personal care. So if you looked at the colors, the fragrances, compared to, like, how home care, which was these, like, really toxic cleaners at the time. So I brought a lot of that personal care approach over to home care. And I also stole from the housewares. I would always say, like, I go to a department store, I'd look at the beauty aisle, and then we'll look at the housewares aisle up top. And so we stole, like, all these beautiful vase shapes. And so we wanted these things to look like little objects of desire, you know, sitting on your countertop.

Sam Parr (6:00)

Okay, so first thing you said was, you look for a cultural shift that's happening that a category has missed. So it's happening, and it's maybe happening elsewhere, because what do they say about the future? The future is here. It's just not evenly distributed. So this is starting to happen. But maybe it hasn't hit in. In the home care aisle yet or hasn't hit oh, my God, I got.

Eric Ryan (6:20)

To steal that from you. That's great.

Sam Parr (6:22)

It's not an original. That's much of VCs like to say that one. All right, so. So that's the first thing you do. And are you looking for a new category or you're looking for a pre existing big category? What do you like to do? So, like, some people would say, oh, that's already done. It's already saturated. I need to go find something that doesn't exist yet. And they're making bets on what doesn't exist. And seems like what you did was you went into things that already existed and you weren't scared of the saturation or that it's already been done for 50 years.

Eric Ryan (6:54)

No, that's right. I, I think it's much easier to make money by creating an iteration off of something already exists, because then you don't have to drive all the consumer education to educate and explain something that's wildly new. And I was living in London in the 90s. I was super inspired by Richard Branson, as many entrepreneurs are. But what I liked about, he had a model, and I think that's what inspired me to create a model. His model is an entertainment model. Right. So you'd go in these really unsexy industries, like airlines, and you would apply his entertainment model that he really understood well. And so I was always inspired by this idea. And I looked at, you know, if you looked at any successful serial entrepreneur, they typically had a model. But what I also loved about Richard did is he went into like, really well established categories that were easy to understand and just put his twist on it. And so that very much became a lot of the way I thought about how I would approach entrepreneurship.

Sam Parr (7:46)

And then you talked about being a thief. Can you, can you give a couple examples there? So you said, I go to a big category, I walk through the aisles, I look for the sea of sameness. I look for a culture shift.

Eric Ryan (7:56)

Oh, sorry.

Sam Parr (7:56)

You told me one other thing that was great. You go, you said something. You go, have they made it unnecessarily over complicated? And you go, I think they're hiding something. There's an insecurity there. If they've made this product category feel overcomplicated and that they take themselves and another one was taking themselves too seriously. Can you talk about those two attributes also?

Eric Ryan (8:17)

Yeah. So I think anytime a category is taking themselves too serious, as you said, they're, they're probably hiding something.

Sean Ogle (8:23)

Right?

Eric Ryan (8:23)

There's like an insecurity there. And so a Lot of my model, too, is going into these categories that are unnecessarily complicated. Can I really simplify it back, make it easy for the consumer? And also, I love categories that take themselves way too serious. And so I love to bring almost like an inner child approach into the categories that are created. So if you look at method, it's kind of like what a kid would use to clean the kitchen. If you looked at Ollie, like, I got adults to take gummy vitamins in masses that didn't happen before with Welly. I got adults to wear bandages with patterns and colors on it, versus just the nude ones that are supposed to hide away with your skin but never really do. And I try to do with that. The idea of a culture shift. So if you look at method, it was both this idea of lifestyle of the home, but also at the time, you were asked to pollute when you clean or use poison to make your home healthier.

Sean Ogle (9:16)

So.

Eric Ryan (9:16)

So there was this other big macro trend of health and wellness and sustainability. But to your point, you know, it was showing up some categories, but it was yet to show up here. So it's really connecting the dots on those trends and bringing it to new spaces that I find is kind of core to my model.

Sean Ogle (9:32)

I saw that you said that one of your favorite ways to come up with ideas is to travel abroad. We had this guy named Kevin Ryan on the podcast. Kevin has founded this thing called MongoDB, which is like a $30 billion software business. But very interestingly, he. He also started Gilt, which is, you know, guilt group, The. The women's clothing thing. And he was like, I got the idea for guilt when I went to France, and I think I saw this thing called the Vendi. I think. I think it was called, where it was basically like flash sales for clothing. And so he would. He talked about that as well, of going abroad. When you go abroad and you like to travel, do you like. Are you. Are you going on trips just to find ideas?

Eric Ryan (10:09)

Yeah, totally. It's a. I think, by far, for me, it's where I get my best ideas for a couple reasons. One, I just think better when I'm in motion. So walking retail with a cup of coffee in your hand, there's ideas flow better than ever sitting at a desk. Two is we do these trend trips where we also take designers with us. And so our goal is not only to spot ideas, but translate it immediately into a design idea that we can bring back. But also, when you're in a foreign country, you're jet Lagged, which means nobody's bothering you. I think you see when you're, when you're jet lagged too, you look at things a little bit more fuzzier, which can be a good, good thing, but also just opens up new pathways when you're, you're walking retail where everything is foreign, you don't understand the language. And for me, like trying to connect the dots between seeing what somebody's doing in one category, could we apply that to another? Space is so much easier to do when you're out of your home market.

Sam Parr (11:06)

So what's an example? So where would you go? And what's an example of maybe an idea you had while you were on one of these trend trips that turned into like a success with one of your brands?

Eric Ryan (11:16)

Yeah, I mean, so I think one of my most favorite was, and this was like 20 years ago. So this was before collaborations became such, you know, a mainstream part of building any brand. But we got Orla Kylie, who is really known for very expensive handbags and patterns, to do a collaboration with us at Target, which as far as I know is the first ever designer collaboration and somebody who is known for very expensive items being able to bring those patterns into a product that sold for $3. And was the first time I think Target ever did a designer collaboration, like at that price point. So that was out of London, was. It was a huge success. There was a building we saw in Japan that we absolutely love, the way it was skinned. We turned that into a hand wash design.

Sam Parr (11:57)

Like the shape of the building or what do you mean?

Eric Ryan (12:00)

Yeah, it was like the texture of the building had this, it was in Tokyo and just had this incredible kind of like pillowed texture on the outside of it. And we turned that as inspiration into a bottle.

Sam Parr (12:10)

And you're saying that like really simply, like, oh, we saw the texture of a building in Tokyo and then it turned it into a hand wash. Like that doesn't even those dots seem really far apart. Can you describe your actual process? So you go to Japan, presumably. Right. You're then going to do what? You just do it.

Eric Ryan (12:29)

He said.

Sean Ogle (12:31)

He said the texture of the building, that's like when you, when you're like on drugs, you're like, can you feel this building? Wouldn't it be great if that was a bottle of soap?

Eric Ryan (12:42)

Okay. So I try to design everything like an object because it's all about creating these like little objects of desire, especially when you're doing it in a category like soap that you have to buy and you're trying to turn into something you want to buy. So I look at everything kind of through this idea. If it's an object. So I looked at a building, the building looks like an object. And it was easy for me to think about, like, oh my God, that pattern, that shape, that texture is amazing. What if that little object was sitting on a shelf at a store versus in the ground as a building? So it's like trying to look for those types of patterns or the original method bottle was this camping fuel bottle I found in Norway. And I just love the shoulders on that, that, that bottle. So we translated that into our first, our first ever product because we couldn't afford industrial designer at that point. So I had to find something we could just riff off of.

Sean Ogle (13:33)

Hey, everyone, really quick. I can already tell that this is an episode that you guys are going to be taking a lot of notes on. And that's kind of a pain in the butt to do while you're either watching or listening to this. And so we actually made it really easy. We made the entire episode into a downloadable PDF so you could actually download the transcript, look at the notes, and this way you could just sit back and enjoy the podcast right now and get the notes later. So the link is in the description below. Click it if you want those notes. Now back to the episode.

Sam Parr (14:02)

You told me something that I loved. You said, my favorite question when I'm doing these trips is, what if this. But for that. And you said something, you go, you know, I'm trying to take one dot over here and then say, what if that was connected to this dot over here and you said something cool, you go, the further apart those two things are, the more powerful the potential idea. Like, it's not always going to work. But like, if you just look at your competitors and you say, oh, we could do that too. That, that's not very powerful idea. But if you take something from a whole different country or industry or like different genre and you bring it to your genre, all of a sudden you have something, right? By the way, an example that just came to mind, I got little kids. And the most popular show right now on Netflix is K Pop Demon Hunters. And they basically did like K Pop music, but then like kids cartoon, American kids cartoons, which, like, wasn't what people were doing before. Like, you were doing cocomelons, like a baby singing American nursery rhymes. And right now, the most popular songs for like, you know, five to eight year olds, half the lyrics are in Korean, but they love it and it worked. You know, they connected two different dots that seemed far apart, but it created a pretty powerful idea when it works.

Eric Ryan (15:12)

Yeah. And first of all, you make me really miss being able to watch cartoons with my kids because they're all older now. I love that show. I think what you're describing is really, it's about creating creative tension. And the more two disparate ideas are that come together, the more creative tension. So Method was really the first to do eco chic. So we brought together high design and deep sustainability. Those were really two opposing ideas. But by bringing it together it created this creative tension. And also when you have creative tension, you create a deeper experience that also drives much more loyalty and people stay within the brand. So that. That's exactly right. So I try to look for the most two disparate ideas that could come together. The other part that that unpacks is this idea of finding something that lives at that intersection of familiar and novel. So if it's too familiar, right. It lacks complete differentiation. If it's too novel, it's incredibly foreign and it becomes harder to get somebody to try it. So I look for those, those ideas that bring together exactly what you just said of this creative tension. But there's enough familiarity in it. You can jump into it, but there's enough novelty to it that it makes it a new experience. And you know, it's easy to say, but it's hard to find. That's the art form I think of finding those intersections.

Sean Ogle (16:24)

I'm not sure what percentage of Welly or Method soap you would say was to. Just the fact that it was a different colored band aid or a different shaped bottle. But if it's a high percentage, it's sort of insane. That's sort of. That's kind of a. That's kind of a hard. You're like this. It's almost like this seems too easy a little bit. Right.

Eric Ryan (16:44)

The more I tried to innovate, the less successful I've been. Where I've moved more into that space of being too novel. I think I feel more times by being too novel than being too familiar. Like our lot, we launched the most amazing laundry detergent years ago. It was 10x concentrated, so it was the size of a shampoo bottle for 50 loads of laundry. But because it was so small, this was an idea I got out of Japan too where I saw they had bigger laundry detergent but they would use these almost like the Axe mouthwash where you squeeze it pre measures it, but we turn it into where you just pump it, a pre measured dose. But it was so hard to get consumers to believe that something so small could be so effective because they've been trained forever that, you know, a giant jug of laundry detergent is what you need to get your clothes cleaned. But yeah, I've always usually over innovated. When I failed and under innovated, I.

Sean Ogle (17:37)

Think I saw a quote with you and Simon Sinek on his podcast. He said, if it's hard, it's probably wrong. And then he said, I know I have a good idea when I can't believe others aren't doing it. And I think that when a lot of entrepreneurs want to grow their companies or start a new company, I know I fall victim to this all the time. I somehow think that there's a correlation between. This sounds controversial, but there's a correlation between how hard I work or how hard something is and how much value a customer will get or how valuable my business can get.

Eric Ryan (18:07)

Yeah, there's a context, this golden rule, and this came out of a lot of apparel and fashion, which is if you change one thing, like if you do, you know, one iteration off of the core, you have a higher probability of success. The second you change two or three things, you're most likely going to fail. It's almost like in advertising, we used to say if you throw a consumer an egg, they're going to catch it. If you throw them two or three eggs, their chances are they're going to drop it because you're throwing too much change at them too fast, whether that's communication or a product. But I also, I think it's such a. We live in such a surplus world, right, of like, endless ideas and choices that I think it creates this pressure to really sometimes over innovate to be too different. And to your point of, like, if it seems so obvious, then I would always get tripped up of like, well, why has nobody done this before? If it's this obvious?

Sean Ogle (18:56)

To me, that's a really good insight. That's a really good insight about the. To, you know, just change one thing. Do you think that that applies across software companies or Internet companies, or is that just commerce or fashion? Like things that are more consumable and that I touch and feel and wear?

Eric Ryan (19:13)

I think it applies to everything whether you're launching. I mean, even if you're, you know, within a B2B business, arguably you're just as distracted as a consumer as you are when you're, you know, I think, I guess a real consumer. And I don't know that world as well, but I would imagine Again, just creating simple iterations off of a successful model is way more likely to succeed than trying to create something radically new from scratch or when something radically new from scratch has started. I mean, think about, like, in the social space of, you know, MySpace friends are. It was really the third that got it right. But it's just kind of simple iterations off of that first model.

Sam Parr (19:52)

I did a call the other day with an AI company that's raised a ton of money, and they have this huge valuation, close to basically a billion dollar valuation. And they initially grew because in AI, AI is so hot. There's so much attention that people were willing to try a bunch of things, but now they're like, hey, how do we grow from here? So they're like, hey, really respect your growth ideas. We want to do a growth session. I was like, I don't know, guys. It's not really my, you know, like, I don't know if I can solve your problem, but cool, I'll jump on a call. And we get on the call, and they start telling me all about this, all the stuff. And I just kept asking the same question. And I was like, cool, so why would somebody choose to use you? Like, why? Because most people today are using tool A. You want them to switch to tool B. And I was like, awesome. So, like, why is tool B better than tool A? And then they were like, oh, it's way better. Like in all these other. All these different ways. I was like, awesome. So just like, tell me the one that, like, is the biggest one that would immediately convince me. And they were like, well, well, there's not really, like, one. And I was like, cool, okay, so let's say there's three. Just tell me one of them first. They were so focused on we're better that they forgot to say we're different. Like, how are you better in A. And like, they were trying to throw four eggs. And I was like, none of those eggs were very convincing. And they all just cracked on me, right? And I wish they had just thrown me one egg that said, listen, for this type of person, here's the problem with the tools that you're currently using. And we. Can we do it this way instead of. And I say, you know, that that would resonate. That would be obviously the ideal scenario. So I definitely think this applies to not just consumer products.

Eric Ryan (21:23)

The way I think that comes from is just pure ego. I think a lot of entrepreneurs, like, their ego gets in the way, and so they want. They almost intentionally overcomplicate it to show how special the product is, therefore how special they are. And the best entrepreneurs I've always met are the ones who take incredibly complex ideas and simplify it down and then it's easy for consumers to get it for their teams to execute. And I think that that, that art form of simplification is the, the biggest hack in entrepreneurship. And yeah, the number of pitches I sit through and like, I'm like, you're intentionally overcomplicating this to justify evaluation or justify your specialness.

Sean Ogle (22:01)

I think it is ego. But there is something strange. I think that, like, it's easy for you to think this because you've done it so many times, but there is something strange where it's like, wait, so if I just change the color of the band aids, it's going to win? And that's obviously you've done, you've done a lot more than that. But like within my company, I run within, within my company with my employees, they'll be like, we have to do this, this, this, or this. I'm like, but what if we just like, don't do any of that and just make better ads or, you know, like, it's like, just do one thing. But for some reason that's hard to conceptualize that like just a minor change on one thing can create a significant amount of value because you think to yourself, I have to work $1 billion worth of work or put $1 billion worth of effort in order to have a $1 billion idea. But it's oftentimes it's, it's. That's not the reality.

Sam Parr (22:47)

Can we do an example here with. You talked a little bit about method. I want to talk about Ollie. Maybe it's because I take it every day. Maybe my kids take it. So it's like very like in my life. And you went into the vitamins category. So let's imagine, let's take you back. I don't know what year this was. You walked into the vitamins category. You're looking there and you see, you know, a bunch of sort of nature made type of looking things. You got maybe Flintstone vitamins. You're still hanging on for dear life and you saw an opportunity. I just want to give you one prompt, which is he said something on the pre call that was hilarious. Sam, he goes, I went into the aisle and I saw, okay, cool. You know, first thing I observed all of them around. So I thought, okay, I guess we're gonna have a square packaging. And I just thought, that's literally the funniest like, the funniest way of like, well, I guess that's that then. If everybody was square, then we would have been round. Like, it's as simple as that.

Eric Ryan (23:35)

There is no focus groups. There was no. It was like, yeah, okay, they're all. They're all round, so we have no choice but to be square.

Sean Ogle (23:42)

That's awesome.

Sam Parr (23:43)

And the other thing I remember was vitamins used to be like a game of inference. So you would. It would say, you know, whatever, vitamin D. But you don't know what vitamin D does, right? You'd have to then know what is the purpose of vitamin D? Or what is the purpose of melatonin, or what is the purpose of, I don't know, whatever the thing that puts you to sleep. But you guys just wrote sleep. And he wrote, like, you know, immunity, right? Like, you just wrote the benefit instead of the feature. And I was like, oh, that was also quite simple of a. Of a change to make. Can you talk about take us back. You go. You walk into that aisle.

Sean Ogle (24:14)

Or.

Sam Parr (24:14)

I don't know how it actually started.

Eric Ryan (24:15)

But yeah, so I we. I sold method, but I still involved. And I, first of all, like, I had. For the first time in my life, I'm pretty optimistic, happy by default, person. But for the first time in my life, I felt a little ruraless. Cause I was like, I'm an entrepreneur. And suddenly I was. Did not feel like an entrepreneur anymore. I was working for somebody else. And I was also doing a project for Target to create what we called Made to Matter. And the goal was to get them to have credit for having all these natural brands. And so we were looking for these brands that connected with Millennial Moms. And we couldn't find any. We couldn't find one for the vitamin category. So I just went and literally walked the aisle. And first thing I noticed was people stressing out, trying to choose something that was healthy for them. Since I think I was studying the aisle, people assumed maybe I knew what I was doing. And so people would just randomly ask me, like, do you know what magnesium's for?

Sean Ogle (25:07)

They thought you worked there.

Sam Parr (25:09)

They were just, like, standing here staring at us.

Eric Ryan (25:12)

Just lost people in that aisle. And it was a dog's breakfast. It was really hard to shop. The brands were super inspiring. The packaging was terrible. So that was the clue. Dig here. And so the first thing I tried to figure out is, like, all right, what is, you know, kind of going back? What is that big cultural shift this category is missing. And what I figured it out was it was really Millennials view health and wellness as a lifestyle pursuit. And the clue for me, and kind of what you said earlier of, like, you start seeing these trends in one area, the clue was really Soul Cycle and the way that Soul Cycle had repositioned fitness into something that was almost spiritual. But I love the branding of Soul Cycle, the name, the whole identity. And so my inspiration a little was like, all right, what would the Soul Cycle of vitamins look like? And if we reimagine a vitamin as a lifestyle product? So then to your point, it's like, all right, well, it's got to be a square pack. And then I always want to design everything to have, like a. So again, it's really designed as a product, not a package. So I wanted to design it like a jar, something you would want to leave out, because if you left it out, you most likely remember to keep taking it. But also, like, it actually had, like, intrinsic value. And then I realized, okay, well, we have to put a giant cap on it, so we might as well make the cap the logo. So then the whole idea and this flowed really within a matter of probably days. The idea that it would be a square jar with a white cap, and that's what would make it iconic. And then it just started quickly flowing from there of like, well, everybody else is selling, like, why sell biotin? Why not just sell beauty? Why sell melatonin? Why not sell sleep and do these really unique blends? And again, it was all the spirit of really making this thing easier to understand that almost, you know, again, turning a vitamin into something you have to buy into something you want to buy and this little, like, object of desire.

Sam Parr (27:04)

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Sean Ogle (27:43)

A box.

Sam Parr (27:44)

But like, you know the cool thing about it. Exactly.

Eric Ryan (27:46)

A beautiful box, though, don't get me wrong.

Sean Ogle (27:48)

The best box.

Eric Ryan (27:49)

Best box.

Sam Parr (27:50)

People love this box. So you. But, you know, all entrepreneurs, they're typically not like the best in the world at a single thing, but they're like, pretty damn good at a couple of unrelated things. So, you know, maybe there's better designers than you are product. Product designers than you. But you also have the entrepreneurial hustle to be like, I'm going to go now stand outside of this natural grocery store and pass out samples, or I'm going to go do a thing that's like, I'm going to keep showing up in some way that like, other people would have given up five days ago, but I was still here. And that was the thing that gave me the break. You know, you're top 20% in two different things rather than being top 1% or top 0.1% in a single category. I'm just assuming that. Is that true and are there any stories of the hustle that it took to get. To get into the stores, actually get the momentum?

Eric Ryan (28:37)

Yeah, super true. It is funny. It's like, as an entrepreneur, I think a lot about energy flow. And when I'm working on something, if it's giving me energy back, then I know it's right. And to your earlier comment of if it's hard, it's wrong, that's a lot of the way. And I'm working on a concept right now that I've literally been pushing water uphill. It's been painful as far as trying to.

Sean Ogle (28:56)

But.

Eric Ryan (28:56)

But last week it broke. I'm like, oh, there it is now. Now it's flowing. Like, I can't stop working on it right now because it's energy giving. It's flowing. The narrative is like beautifully coming together, each insights unlocking the next. But in that case, like, I had to push water uphill for, like the last six months on this concept and trying to get it to a place where suddenly, like, I can see. See it now and then hopefully other people will see it. But to your point of execution, like, at the end of the day, like, ideas are. Are easy. Like, execution's the hard part. So with method, I think that was where we had. Because we had, you know, we were, Adam and I were two guys in a dirty flat in San Francisco with like, zero. No, you know, zero experience on how to make or sell anything. And I think where that persistence really paid off is we had to sell it into these, you know, local San Francisco grocery stores where the manager made the decision. So we would just show up at 6am and like, you know, grumpy manager. And you gotta, you know, quickly, you've got literally three minutes to like pitch your idea for this new premium cleaning cleaning brand. And I realized a lot of ways selling was just really this transfer of emotion. Like I don't think he ever believed in the product that we were selling. But you gotta get him to believe in you and in some cases believe that you're gonna keep showing up until he says yes to that persistence. But it's really that emotion, that energy that's contagious. And it's finding it first in what you're building that you love so then you can share that with other people and have the energy to keep going when things get hard, which of course they will.

Sean Ogle (30:26)

Do you look at a company like a project, like this is my art project and I'm going to jump from thing to thing to thing. Do you acknowledge or are you more operational?

Eric Ryan (30:36)

I both. I'm a project guy at heart. I love the start, middle and finish of creating something, but also to build great companies. The operating side of it is so important. Kind of my kind of core philosophy of building companies is this idea of artisan operators. So I want to build companies that have incredible imagination, creativity that can innovate, but also run a really good predictable business with great supply chain finance, controls and doing both. Like, if you think about it, there's so few companies in the world, Apple, Nike, that do both really, really well at scale. And so I try to build teams and cultures that have this idea of being great artisan operators. But I do, you know, at the heart of it, I do love, you know, I heard Tim Kugel, who is on my board say once he referred to Yahoo as a project, you know, which he started as employee number six. The CEO scaled it through an IPO and beyond. And when he referred to Yahoo as a project, I thought that was pretty cool.

Sean Ogle (31:34)

Do you have like an open, an open check from Unilever or Target and they're just like, whatever you got going on, get after it and come see us in two or three years and we'll look at the traction and we'll just buy your company.

Eric Ryan (31:46)

I wish it was that easy, but no, I got a great.

Sam Parr (31:50)

In his chair with a cat on his, on his arm. Right.

Eric Ryan (31:55)

I mean we've had a lot of success. We've had a lot of failures as well. It always like every, every one of them is hard and hard in their own way. I do. So I'm moving over. I joined Greycroft and we're launching a new Greatcroft Consumer brands fund. So I'm moving into the VC space and kind of what you're talking about too. I realize my superpower of working with entrepreneurs is to help infuse them in energy because I've sat in their shoes so many times, understand how hard it is. And so I love now not being the quarterback on the field, always throwing the passes, but actually being the coach on the sidelines and coaching these, these young founders. And it's, it's just a thrill to do that.

Sam Parr (32:37)

Now you told me something kind of amazing. You said that you went on your trend trips, let's say to Tokyo or wherever you're going, and you took some people from Target with you during this kind of like brainstorming phase. But did you, you had this, this system that was kind of like gonna wow them. Can you tell this story about how you, the 24 hour cycle that you had that would like wow them?

Eric Ryan (32:58)

Yeah, I mean, a lot of people, you know, trend trips are quite common within consumer, especially among retailers. The problem is you come back with all these amazing photos and then you're buried in your inbox and meetings you've missed and usually it goes nowhere. So the process that we found worked really well is we'd kick off every trend trip with like, okay, here, you know, ground ourselves. These are the big macro trends. And then we'd hire somebody on the ground where for Asia or Europe. And we would go to all of like the most influential retail that was occurring in that market. But everybody had almost like a scavenger hunt. You had an assignment by the time we got to that pub at five o' clock to sit down for a happy hour, everybody had to have multiple ideas that they were excited about while being in the field. And then we would talk about it, we would pick a couple, and then as we're going to dinner, I would call it into our creative team who's sitting in San Francisco where it's morning. And then they would have all day to work on the brief that we just gave them. They would send it at the end of their day. We would wake up and then at breakfast we had present like what looked like polished products ideas to Target. And so by the time we got on that plane to go home, we actually had sold in new products.

Sean Ogle (34:09)

That's like how south park makes an episode. Have you guys seen that? Where like Matt and Trey will like write all day and then they'll like send it to their Korean editor editing team. And then the next morning they like, oh, cool, thanks. And they like run with it.

Sam Parr (34:22)

I saw the podcast version of this, Sam. So we, we do a thing where whenever we have a guest on or like, especially when we do them in person, we will bring a gift. And because I was just like, oh, you know, like this person took time out of their day, they did this. Like, I want this to feel like a great experience. Like what makes a great experience when you, when you have, when you, when you are with somebody. I think giving a gift is a nice thing. Right? Steve Bartlett, who's another podcaster, he, he was on Jimmy Fallon the other day and Jimmy was talking about how his experience on the show, he goes, you guys do this incredible thing. I did the podcast with you. And when we got up and the episode was done, somebody from your team came and handed me this book. And it's a photo book of printed photos from the podcast that they were just doing like moments earlier. And he was like, I've never seen anything like this. And this guy's been doing TV production with Hollywood stars for years. But like creating like going a little bit extra to create a wow. And in that case it's the speed of the turnaround. Similar to what you were saying with your. The speed of the turnaround. I'm sure a lot of people will come up with mock ups or product ideas two weeks later at a follow up meeting, but the emotion's gone and the wow factor is gone. At that point. Doing it in the 24 hour cycle is, is that little extra, that entrepreneurial juice that like I think most people wouldn't, wouldn't even think to go. They wouldn't, they would think that's important. That's. There's an invisible fence that you can't do that well.

Eric Ryan (35:39)

It's a living. That state of make. And also I love that line by Steve Jobs of I trust people, just not in groups. And so it allows you to keep a really small team that's agile, that isn't overthinking things and just living in that state of make. And that's where magic and I'm such a huge student of SNL and how Saturday Night Live, their entire creative process, any of the former actors on it that's written an autobiography, I've listened to, I think I know it by heart now of what they do Tuesday morning through. But there is something so powerful about being in that state data make. And now that we have between AI and digital tools where we can build and make things in such real time, I think it's even more powerful. And it's also where you see real talent versus people who, who don't know how to actually do anything they know how to manage. And so it's a place where like builders and doers really thrive and managers kind of just get in the way.

Sean Ogle (36:32)

I don't, I don't, I don't know if we should do it right now, which maybe have a part two, but it would actually be awesome. I never realized for like, you know, Sean has an E Comm brand and for all the people who are in the, in the more physical space, it would be really fun to see how you use AI to ideate that. That would be really interesting. I've never thought about, about, you know, folks making physical products being able. Or not being able to use it.

Eric Ryan (36:54)

Oh, I'm using. I'm so bad with ChatGPT right now. Like last night just. I use it as a whole creative team and partner. It's. It's absolutely amazing what you can do.

Sam Parr (37:01)

Now I want to get to the brainstorm. So we did. We did promise. I basically said outline your method and then let's use the method to try to come up with some ideas, which I think is fun. Living in the state of make on the podcast too. Right? Because how many podcasts would actually try that? Okay, so you just to outline your. Your process was find a big category, ideally an already big category, so you don't have to educate the consumer about something new they haven't thought about buying. You want to find a sea of sameness where everybody's kind of doing the same thing. You want to look if there's a cultural shift elsewhere that hasn't applied to this category, ideally it's something that's overly complicated. They're taking themselves too seriously. Then to come up with your idea, you be a thief. You find unrelated things. You say, what if we did that over here? And you're trying to come up with a single stroke that cuts through the noise that might be your packaging or your, your colors, your positioning, whatever it may be this, the square bottle, when everybody else is round, and then you add a household to get the momentum going. All right, so I came up with a couple of half. I'm calling these half baked ideas. I don't think they're. I think one might be good, but the others are. Are pretty tough. Did you have a chance to come up with some. And if so, let's. We'll go back and forth.

Sean Ogle (38:06)

Yes.

Eric Ryan (38:06)

Yep.

Sam Parr (38:06)

I got a couple. Okay, I'm gonna pitch you one, and then I want you to. To, you know, give me the.

Eric Ryan (38:12)

The.

Sam Parr (38:13)

The thumbs up, the thumbs down. Feel free to be brutally harsh. It makes for better content. All right. All right. I think this. This first idea, I think, is genuinely good. The other ones I don't really have a lot of faith in, but this one I genuinely believe in. All right, So I think about products that my mom takes that I'm gonna take, because humans are not. If, like, the world, you know, feels like it's changing really fast, but biologically, we're not changing that fast. Right. And so when I see my parents, I'm seeing a future window into what I might look like or things that they prioritize that I don't really think about today. And my mom was just over at my house, and one thing my mom takes religiously is fiber. She drinks fiber every single day. And I've, you know, I'm in a world where I hear about gut health and microbiome and fancy stuff, but she's like, I need to take this to poop. Okay, so that's what I'm going to do. And I need to take this to poop. You got that? I'm like, yeah, that's simple enough. And so then I looked. I looked at the brands that she's using, and I walked through the aisle. So preparing for this podcast, I went to the grocery store and I walked through, and I see Metamucil, which to me sounds like a disease. I see Benefiber, which sounds like an Obamacare, you know, spin off. And I just thought the brand. The leading brands in the fiber category, I think are completely outdated, but I do think that there's something familiar about fiber. So, like, I get pitched a lot of products that I don't really know if they'll work or not, but if somebody said, hey, this increases the fiber in your diet, I would personally have pretty high conviction that that's, like, good for me. I just don't want to take a grandma product. Right. Because that's not really. That wouldn't. I would feel unhealthy taking the product. So I want a fiber brand that I feel like I'm the same way when I take, you know, protein or amino acids or something. Something that's like, yeah, I'm at. I'm trying to be peak performance right now.

Eric Ryan (39:55)

And.

Sam Parr (39:56)

And so I want to reinvent the fiber category. That's the point of view. And I have an idea for how to do that, which is to. To get out of this kind of grandma product category and do a fresh take on fiber sharks. All right, where do you. Where does that land with you?

Eric Ryan (40:09)

Well, let's start with the space, because it's. If it's the wrong category, then there's. It's pointless to go any further. I. I think he found great white space. Like, I agree. Fiber is the new protein. As protein gets more and more saturated in the record, you know, we're seeing huge growth across all. All areas of higher fiber. If you. The place I would look is if you walk Costco and what fiber products are available there. And you're right. It's the legacy brands. Nobody's really put a fresh spin on it. You could do it. Like, where would you steal from? I would steal from juice bars of, like, a wellness appetite appeal, like a green. Like, what is a green juice, a modern green juice look like as a fiber product, and then you can innovate on flavors around it. And the other thing is, it's a really great margin category.

Sam Parr (41:03)

Right?

Sean Ogle (41:03)

We. I have this friend. Do you guys know what Kegel exercises are for men?

Sam Parr (41:08)

I don't know how to do it. You're supposed to, like, squeeze something inside.

Sean Ogle (41:10)

But, like, so, like, women have. Women have women. Anyone? The few women who listen to this, they know what that is. But for men, all four of you, listen up.

Sam Parr (41:18)

This part's for you.

Sean Ogle (41:19)

Yeah, For. For the men, people apparently do Kegel exercises. So don't like premature ejaculate, basically, during sex. I think that's the main thing. But they're. But I have a. I've got a buddy who made a.

Eric Ryan (41:30)

That's a commitment, by the way.

Sean Ogle (41:31)

Well, I've got. Yeah, yeah. Like, you must. You really need it. And I have a friend who created a Kegel exercise app for men, and he was, like, promoting this, and I was like, man, I see why young or any man wants this. That's great. It sounds like you're doing great for the world, but my honor costs too much. I don't want to be an influencer or a promoter for this. And I wonder if there's, like, a little bit with fiber where it's like. I don't know if I want to talk about, like, you know, pooping more.

Sam Parr (41:59)

So I did think about this, and I have two. Two possible angles. We either lean in or we swerve out. Okay, lean in.

Eric Ryan (42:05)

Here's the lean in.

Sam Parr (42:06)

People think that's the lean in path is going to be look, poop is. Yeah, poop, poops, poop. It kind of could be funny. And so I actually pitched this to our friend who came on the podcast, Hasan Minhaj. I said, I got a product for you because I was like, this guy's so funny that like his ad creative would be like, would perform better than anybody else's ad creative. And it's almost like, you know, any celebrity who hawks a product, there's a little bit of the sellout nature. And so it's almost funny to sell out for something that's like so like so clearly silly. And in that way that it might actually work for him. Like he's gets a license to like promote the product because it's kind of a silly product. So one, one way is to lean in and actually have a comedian who you kind of have as a face of the brand that actually leans into the fun of it.

Eric Ryan (42:53)

You can be the dude the dude wipes. So well executed.

Sam Parr (42:57)

Leaned into that to the use case. All right, so then there's the swerve out path which was. You're right. Maybe it's not about. Maybe it's not about. Maybe the framing is a little more on metabolism or digestion. Like you, you may. Can you work. Can you use a different word? Because I don't know anybody that cleanses metabolism.

Sean Ogle (43:11)

Yeah, like cleaner system.

Sam Parr (43:13)

And I've never heard really of that many products that like talk about like this, this improves your metabolism. Right. And so you get away from the sort of like the, the lower intestine area and you, you sort of like, you move up towards more like the stomach and you get a little away from the gross stuff and you talk about metabolism. So those are my two ideas. I love it.

Eric Ryan (43:31)

And what I would do if I were you, I would then create two very different concepts around that. So I would do like dude white potpourri approach that just unbashfully claims that function. And then to your point, then I would go to a really elevated, almost like beauty like approach.

Sam Parr (43:51)

And then what would you do? Would you test those in some way or you just look at it and feel which one feels right? Like what would you do once you come up with the two very disparate concepts?

Eric Ryan (44:00)

So I like to solve the work in the creative. And so I take those two concepts. I'd work with a designer creative team, really bring them to life. And then first I'd be like, what one am I most excited about? Back to that idea of energy, like which One am I, like, personally excited? I would share it with friends and family, because if they don't like it, why would anybody else? And then if I was really torn, I'd do consumer auditions. Not for the consumer to, like, choose A versus B, but just so I can hear feedback from consumers, like in a qualitative focus group to help kind of guide my decision of which direction I want to go. And then I would also put it in front of retailers. I don't ask the buyers. I think most people go into buyers with the intent of, like, I'm going to sell to you. I'm here to prove myself versus I'm here to improve myself. And when I sit down with buyers, I always try to go in to improve and really invite their feedback into the process.

Sam Parr (44:48)

That's interesting. Consumer auditions. I never heard that. That sounds good. I like that. That sounds way cooler than focus groups.

Sean Ogle (44:53)

All right, rookie, what do you got to pitch, Eric? Let's hear it.

Eric Ryan (44:58)

So I'm going to pitch arguably one of the most important institutions in America and arguably one of the lost institutions of America, and that is the American diner. At one point, these beautiful silver. And it was really the first third place before Starbucks. And in a world where more and more, I think we'll see a backlash to AI of understanding what is real and what is not. We're going to want these places of human connection and just deep authenticity. And there's also no better place than to really start your day. So my pitch is I'm going to go back to soul cycle again. I would create the soul cycle of the diner. It would only be open from morning through lunch, so it's one shift. So it's a really good economic model. But when you walk into it, it feels incredibly vibrant. So I would do probably like, the entire thing would feel almost like a modern barn of, like, white B board with yellow accents. I would have a standalone grab and go juice bar, coffee bar. But the rest of the restaurant would be how a diner is set up, where it's all stool bar seating. But I would have it so it moves throughout, you know, so the counter, there's no separate tables. The counter kind of flows so you can get everybody around the counter for that. Communal. But also so it's really efficient for the staff, too, to move through it. And then when you pop in at 7am like, it's popping. Like, it's got great, great energy. It's just a place you would want to start every morning, right? With that level of optimism.

Sam Parr (46:38)

So the seating is Kind of like those sushi bars where you.

Sean Ogle (46:40)

Where you.

Sam Parr (46:40)

Where they wrap around like the, you know, those conveyor belt sushi bar. You're sort of stealing from that, but applying that to the American diner.

Eric Ryan (46:48)

Yes, there's that. I forget the name of it. That Parisian restaurant that. Where the entire restaurant is built like a counter, but the counter kind of meanders so you have a full view of the kitchen. And there was very communal is in and out. You don't have to seat anybody. And it's also about creating this amazing energy. So what I would want to do is take on Denny's and IHOP with that model.

Sean Ogle (47:09)

That's awesome.

Sam Parr (47:10)

I have a. Since we're in a creative brainstorm here, I got a what if for you. I got a how might we for you. You know what I mean? I feel like I need. I feel like I need a hacky sack or something creative with me here. Okay. So in mobile gaming, I tried to make a mobile game once. And so before I even made the game, I went and talked to a couple guys who made really popular mobile games. And I sat down and I showed them a prototype and they go, oh, dude, you have a TTF problem. And I was like, I don't know if that's std. I don't know what you're talking about, but I don't want it. But I'm sure, I'm absolutely certain I have one based on the way you just. He was like, disgusted with.

Sean Ogle (47:49)

Or you're like, oh, thanks. Like, I worked really hard.

Sam Parr (47:54)

Do I have too much or too little? Which way do I go? So he was basically saying the most important metric in a mobile game success is ttf, time to function. So basically, from the moment I click the button to open the app, how long does it take for me to have some fun? Because I was like, cool. Open the app registration screen, sign up, give me your email address. How about your phone number? Would you like push notifications? Would you like me to remind you? It's like you haven't even tried the app yet, right?

Sean Ogle (48:21)

You're like, how am I? You're like, what's my tts like? Never. The fun never came.

Sam Parr (48:25)

No fun. And he was showing me, like, you know, if you open up, like, Mario is one of the classic examples of this. Like, if you start Mario first level, there's no tutorial, there's no nothing. Like, Mario starts and a small goomba starts walking towards you, the easiest enemy to defeat, and you jump on his head. You get a satisfying like, yeah, I Squashed that bug. And then the next thing you do is there's a brick above your head. You jump up, you punch it, and you get a coin. You jump up, you punch the next one. You think it's a coin? No, a mushroom comes out. You're like, oh, my God, do I want this? And you go get it, and you grow. And so in the first 15 seconds of Mario, you have learned all the controls. You've defeated an enemy, you. You've gotten money, and you grew bigger and stronger. And it's like the greatest first 15 seconds of your life. So I have an idea for you. Cause I went to a diner this weekend.

Eric Ryan (49:08)

Wait, hold on. Can we use, like, a time time to fund, like, that's a new metric I'm gonna use for everything now, whether you're like. And it's like getting a restaurant airline. My marriage, like, Sonny, time to fun is off right now.

Sam Parr (49:20)

Exactly.

Eric Ryan (49:21)

But it's like.

Sam Parr (49:22)

Yeah.

Eric Ryan (49:22)

Removing all the friction to get to that experience. Time to fun front load a little.

Sam Parr (49:27)

Bit of the fun.

Eric Ryan (49:28)

Right.

Sam Parr (49:28)

I'm not going to give you all of it, but can I get a piece of it here now? Because I need to, you know, hook you. And so I thought I went to a diner this weekend, and from the time we got there, and we were all excited to get there, and my kids wanted pancakes and all this good stuff to the time we actually had anything fun, like, any food or drink on the table was, like, 22 minutes. And I get it, they were totally busy. But I wonder if there's some way where right when you walk in, there's something. Because the right after the diner, we went to Costco, and right when we walked in, there was, like, a Costco sample person. And my kids got something, and they were like, hey, what is this place? We like this place. Because they instantly got, like, a cracker when they walked in. And so I just wonder if with the diner, you could do one thing, which is, like, eliminate the weight and bring that TTF down, which is what we want. We want low ttf.

Eric Ryan (50:13)

I love that. Okay, so what I think is, like, you know, like, Dunkin donut munchkins. We do, like, a really great, like, gourmet cinnamon munchkin. So when you walk in, like, it's almost like a sample. You grab a munchkin as you walk in to go sit down so you get that first, like, little taste.

Sam Parr (50:29)

Do they have a smell, too? Because that would be nice double to get two senses, but you could do.

Eric Ryan (50:34)

A smoothie shot next to It. So it's a tray of smoothie shots of munchkins. So it gives you that little. And also takes the edge off your customers while they're waiting as well. So the wait time will never feel as long.

Sam Parr (50:44)

Two other little culinary steam steals maybe. Okay. One other steel we could do five guys, they have the barrel of peanuts, which I think is kind of what you're talking about, right? You go in and there's just free peanuts you could scoop again. I, I love that. Who doesn't love that? The other. My first business was a sushi restaurant. And in a sushi, a traditional sushi restaurant, when you walk through the door, the entire kitchen staff, they don't turn to you, but they hear the door chime go. And they go irashay. Like the whole crowd, like the whole crew is like, oh, what's up? It's basically like the Japanese what's up? And it basically means like a customer is here. Like, hey, like pay attention or whatever or welcome. I don't even know what Irish means, but like that's what they all say. I think you could also like kind of if you talk about soul cycle, I think there's a way to make the experience of the customer interesting when you walk in. Like, I just wonder what ritual we could have when somebody walks through the door that would be welcoming and unique and interesting as well.

Sean Ogle (51:39)

We're just such neat. We're so neat. We're Neanderthals. Like, you know, we're going to talk about like Aristotle and the philosophy, philosophy of life and all this stuff. And it turns out you just got to throw a bunch of nuts at my face when I walk in to get a burger.

Sam Parr (51:52)

Like, dude, I love a good high five.

Sean Ogle (51:54)

Yeah. You just gotta say what's up? In Japanese and like, I'm good.

Eric Ryan (51:59)

I mean, you can picture the playlist in this place, right, of like the best morning music and there's something of like they hit something and like a good morning. Good morning comes over as people walk as each time somebody walks in the door, right? I love that time. I'm so fascinated with time to fund now I think about like vacations, like going skiing. Time to fun could be really low. Schlepping to get to the hill.

Sean Ogle (52:21)

Socks. Yeah.

Eric Ryan (52:22)

But everything now I'm going to measure in ttf.

Sam Parr (52:25)

Well, like, you know, you arrive in Hawaii and they give you the lei right. When you get out the door, right? Like a hotel check in process, right? So that normally the fun is when you get to maybe your room in Hawaii. As soon as you get out of the door. Lei blue drink fun instant. Do you just.

Sean Ogle (52:39)

Sean, do you just have like a notepad of like all load? Like, do you have a ranking of load?

Sam Parr (52:43)

Well, he said travel, so just, you know what I mean? Creative.

Eric Ryan (52:47)

Well, the arrival. There's my boyfriend. I say there's nothing better than arrival drinks. Yeah, like, that's the best moment of a vacation.

Sean Ogle (52:54)

Would you ever get into a non. I mean, you've done the same category forever. Would you ever get into a. A restaurant business or something? That's not what you've done.

Eric Ryan (53:03)

Well, I just tried building a retail business and I think what we built was amazing and I was super proud of it. And it was working with the consumer. It was just impossible to fund in this current capital cycle. So what I try to do is reinvent the American jewelry store. And my theory was I always wanted to do retail where I could geek out on every expression from the playlist to the sense, which we did. And even the way you're greeted. And I'm a huge student of Danny Meyer, the way he thinks about at each restaurant, like 15 seconds, right? To be greeted. And even the service manual of where does the salt and pepper go? And how do you think every. Every detail through. But when you walk into a jewelry store, I found it to be like the most intimidating experience. Like you never felt like he belonged there. You had to like ask for the world's smallest price tag to be turned over and then you have to give a reaction to something you thought was 5,000, but it's actually $50,000. And the insight there was women, self purchasing is driving growth and fine jewelry. But nobody was really creating a experience for them. So we created this brand called Cast. We opened up three stores in the Bay Area. And I wanted like, you know, Willy Wonka, pure imagination to play in a consumer's head when they walked in and feel like a kid in a candy store again. But again, being able to sign leases, build out stores. Omnichannel. We had incredible partnership with Nordstrom, who put capital in the business. But it was so capital intensive that a path to profitability and then raising capital this market was just incredibly, incredibly difficult. So that's where those. One of those situations, you're like, all right, I'm sitting at the wrong. Tony Hsieh would say, sometimes you gotta move poker tables. And just I'm at the wrong table. And, you know, gold pricing was spiking, diamond pricing was crashing. You couldn't sign a lease in these a class because LVMH should eat up so much of these leases. So I realized, like, it was just back to, like, if it's hard, it's wrong. It was a hard.

Sean Ogle (54:59)

Until you were like, all right, it's. It's. It's dead.

Eric Ryan (55:02)

I worked on it from launch to it's dead. Three. Three to four years.

Sam Parr (55:08)

Oh, a lot.

Eric Ryan (55:09)

A lot. Yeah. Now we worked. We worked out hard at it. It was a fun business, like designing jewelry. And our team, you know, carbon culture, our team. Issa Rae was part of it. And we were on the white, you know, White Lotus Season 2. The cast was wearing our product. We had a. You know, we had a profound mark on the industry in a very short amount of time. But it just was a business that nobody wants to put capital into, unfortunately. And there's never been really great access.

Sean Ogle (55:33)

It's not, like, the easiest pitch at the moment. Like, okay, so how are you an AI company?

Eric Ryan (55:39)

Yeah.

Sean Ogle (55:39)

I mean, it's not, like, very appealing.

Sam Parr (55:41)

You know, he has, like, great phrases. He had one on this. When he's telling about the jewelry shop, he goes, it was like a plane made of gold. Like, I love. Like, it was a great idea, but it was like a plane made of gold. You couldn't. It couldn't get Lift off. It couldn't get off the ground. It's too hot.

Eric Ryan (55:54)

Fast as he went down the Runway, like, just could not get air. Airboard and. But if you look at it, it's cast jewelry. Our store. I mean, I was super proud of what we built, but I picked a. I picked the wrong space to try to innovate in.

Sam Parr (56:09)

All right, let's take a quick break. Cause I got to tell you a story. Let me tell you about the first time I tried to run payroll for my team. I was using a traditional bank. And you know the type. It's got a janky interface. It's built like a 2002 tax form. And it was open only during business hours. And I hit send, and it froze.

Eric Ryan (56:24)

They flagged the transaction.

Sam Parr (56:25)

They locked my account. They put me on hold for 45 minutes. And then they told me I got to visit my local branch. And that was the day I started looking for a new banking solution. After asking a few founders what they were using, I found out about Mercury. And so now my payroll is two clicks. I can wire money, I can pay invoices, I can reimburse the team all from one clean dashboard. That's why I use it for all of my companies. And so do 200,000 other startup founders and so if you're looking to level up your banking, head to mercury.com and apply in minutes. Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank bank. The services are provided through Choice Financial Group column NA and Evolve bank and Trust members.

Eric Ryan (56:57)

Fdic.

Sean Ogle (56:58)

Do you want to tell them more of your horrible ideas or.

Sam Parr (57:00)

Yeah, okay, I got another one here. You think I had one bad idea. I'm a volume guy.

Eric Ryan (57:07)

No, your first one is a great idea. I would invest.

Sam Parr (57:10)

Thank you.

Eric Ryan (57:11)

Thank you.

Sam Parr (57:11)

All right, so now here's. It's about to fall off a cliff here. Okay. So I walked through the grocery store looking for that sea of sameness. And honestly, like, you know, shout out to the grocery store. There's. There wasn't a whole lot of categories that I saw. One that stood out to me because I'm looking for everyday products. I'm looking for repeat purchase. I'm looking for. Everybody buys this, but I'm looking for something where there's not a brand. I don't have a favorite brand. I don't have even, like, I don't. Couldn't even tell you the name of four of the brands in the category. That's kind of what I was looking for. So I'd like. You. I'd like to introduce you to my company, White Label Chicken llc. And White Label Chicken LLC is getting into the chicken game. And what we're going to do is we're going to white label someone else's chicken. So we're going to take chicken from somebody else. We're not going to get into farming, but we're going to put our own brand on it because they're like, Sam, what's your top three favorite chicken brands?

Sean Ogle (58:02)

I don't know.

Sam Parr (58:03)

Don't know. Eric, you got a favorite chicken brand?

Eric Ryan (58:05)

We're talking about like packaged chicken. Packaged chicken at the grocery store.

Sam Parr (58:08)

You're going to go buy like breast meat or whatever. It's like nine bucks for the little mini tray.

Sean Ogle (58:13)

Yeah, that's a real. That's a weird, inspiring name.

Eric Ryan (58:16)

Well, we're not.

Sam Parr (58:17)

The front facing brand is not White Label Chicken. It's a, it's a working title. And so we're White Label Chicken llc. And so then I don't even know the angle yet.

Eric Ryan (58:24)

I.

Sam Parr (58:24)

All I knew was I can't believe there's no. Like, like there's no oatley for chicken.

Eric Ryan (58:29)

No.

Sam Parr (58:30)

You know what I mean? Like, there's, there's no, there's no. I can't believe there's just not a favorite. Like, not like, distinct chicken brands that stand for something and mean something. Like, whether it's. Whether it's about the flavor or preseason, whether it's about, like, this is man's chicken. And, like, you're gonna get your protein from this meal. Like, this is what we do. We. We give you a little extra. I don't know what it is, but I just kind of saw that white space, and I wanted to open the floor to you gentlemen to help me kind of workshop this point.

Eric Ryan (58:57)

This is where it goes, like, familiar and novel. So this is very familiar. So how do you add novelty? It's interesting. You're right. As soon as it gets, like, put in a dinosaur shape and breadcrumbs around it, it becomes, you know, Dino. Like, right? It becomes Dino Nuggets. Becomes incredibly well branded. Or it gets served at a restaurant as a. A sandwich. Chick Fil. A. But the. The. The chicken itself, I mean, it was fought, like, Foster Farms did a pretty good job of this on Kelly out in California. But it was really not the product. It's just their advertising was so good.

Sam Parr (59:32)

Right.

Eric Ryan (59:32)

That Goodby did years ago. Okay. So I think you gotta go back. I would sell. I would turn it into an origin story. I wouldn't sell the chicken. I would sell the farm, and I would.

Sam Parr (59:46)

That sounds smart, right? This farm design sounds cool.

Sean Ogle (59:50)

I wish I had said that as if Don Draper wore hoodies.

Sam Parr (59:55)

Don't sell the chicken. Sell the farm, baby. I might say that to my wife later today. In. In any context.

Sean Ogle (60:01)

Eric, do you have, like, a pack of cigs that you could light up right now? Because this would be a lot cooler.

Sam Parr (60:04)

If you took out a cigarette right now. You would be the coolest man I've ever met in my life after that line.

Sean Ogle (60:09)

Put your feet up, smoke a cig, and tell me about selling the farm, not the chicken.

Eric Ryan (60:14)

Because the. Because we don't want to think about the chicken because we murdered it. Right? We want to think that the chicken had a good life on this farm before it was killed. Right? That's going to make us feel good about the quality of the chicken. It's going to make us feel good about the chicken's short life. And so I would build the whole brand around this heaven, this heavenly farm for chickens.

Sam Parr (60:39)

What if we create an Instagram account? We actually pour all our energy into the Instagram account of this incredibly aesthetic farm, and it's like Truman Show. It's just totally a set. Because, again, we're White Label Chicken llc. So I'm starting with inauthenticity. Here. But like, I'm just thinking, what if we, what if you started with the social. You just made everybody's favorite farm and then from there you're like, of course if you're going to buy chicken, you'd buy it from your favorite farm.

Sean Ogle (61:06)

Dude, I have a, I've got a friend that exited a, a multibillion dollar consumer brand. And I was, yeah, so he's, he's.

Sam Parr (61:15)

He thinks you're his best friend, but he's just a friend.

Sean Ogle (61:18)

Yeah, he might, he might use the a word acquaintance and I use, you know, close friend. Yeah, close friend. Yeah, we're a little bit different, but we. He was like telling me this idea for his new business and presumably he's very smart because of his previous success, but he was like, do you know what free range means? Like free range chicken. And I was like, I guess that means they're running around a farm. And he was like, no, the definition is like they've got like a cage the size of like five by five. It was, I forget the exact definition, but it was like shockingly small. And he's working on this thing where he's putting rfd. Is it called RFD tags? Is that what it's called? Is that what it is? He was putting them in, in cows and in chickens. And as they are scanned, so the whole farm has like the, the technology to see how far away they're running. And as they go to the kill, you know, the kill bin or whatever, they got to go to their, their RFD thing is scanned. And so a consumer can. On his chickens. And this is a real thing that he's, he already built. You can see how like what radius they were running around. This was his old premise, is that people, which it kind of, that could maybe that, that actually might be interesting, but you could actually see is this truly free range chicken or were they just like in a small pen where they were just in their own feces? Like, you know, like. Because there's like a correlation between how, how like healthy the farm was and how if they actually followed the rules.

Eric Ryan (62:37)

Yeah. And I think to build an area too, I always say the framework of like you got to find the intersection of altruism and narcissism. So the case of method, you bought it for very narcissist reasons. You love the fragrance, you love the design of it, but the altruism, it's good for me, good for the planet. Brought you coming back. And if you can deliver on both, I think is real power we try to do that in all of our brands. So in the case of our chicken farm here, we need to sell the nursism that this is the most organic, good for you, great tasting chicken. But the ultras on that, you can feel good that this chicken, while they had a short life, it had a really good life.

Sean Ogle (63:13)

And I think it was a great six weeks.

Eric Ryan (63:16)

Yeah. You know, it's almost like you steal from children's books, so you do the whole branding. Like, it's a children's book of this magical farm. And even, like, you make the farmers who work there kind of, you know, part of the overall iconography of the brand, and you make them heroes in it as well.

Sam Parr (63:34)

Old MacDonald had a farm. It's called Bingo Chickens.

Eric Ryan (63:39)

Is Old McDonald's available?

Sam Parr (63:40)

Check it.

Eric Ryan (63:42)

Old McDonald's would be great. Old McDonald's, if that's available. Does anybody own that?

Sam Parr (63:47)

I think because McDonald's, you'd have to be like, old, you know, McDonald, you have to, like, do something weird with the spelling. Do you guys ever buy these eggs?

Sean Ogle (63:54)

Yeah, all the time.

Eric Ryan (63:55)

Yes. Yeah, they're in my fridge right now.

Sam Parr (63:57)

This is like what you're talking about of, like, the sea of sameness or like, the commodities that they made. Like, look at the bottom here. Medium brown egg is literally the name of the product. It's like a transparent medical packaging, like sterile packaging. And you just see these eggs and then this vital farms thing on top because they literally draw, like, flowers and, like, you know, hay or whatever on the thing. I'm like, oh, farm good. Farm to table. I'm doing good.

Sean Ogle (64:24)

Now that he says, see a saveness. I'm like, oh, I do this all the time. Like, the other day, I bought yogurt the other day, because instead of Greek yogurt, this yogurt was Icelandic.

Eric Ryan (64:33)

Right?

Sean Ogle (64:34)

Like. Like, I don't know.

Eric Ryan (64:36)

I don't know what that means, but I'm in.

Sean Ogle (64:37)

Yeah. Yeah. I was like, for some reason, it's all Greek, and this is from Iceland.

Sam Parr (64:42)

And do you have a theory on naming? Because, like, you've named your products extremely well. Yes.

Sean Ogle (64:47)

How?

Sam Parr (64:48)

What? How do you come up with names?

Eric Ryan (64:50)

So the holy grail of naming is one word, four letters. If you could do it, that'll really, really hard. Naming a brand is the most difficult part of a startup because everything is taken.

Sam Parr (65:03)

Do you use, like, an agency? Do you just sit there and think it's all different?

Eric Ryan (65:07)

I'm not good at naming, but I'm good at spotting a name. So method was Adam is literally My co founder, we are literally brushing our teeth at the same time. And he's like, what about method? I was like, that's it. Lawyers are like, you're never gonna get method. It's, like, way too generic. Then I asked my lawyer, while he wasn't working over drinks, I was like, if. If you thought this meme was really important to your success, what would you do? He's like, hey, I'd go for it. Like, where's. Because lawyers never want to be wrong, but they don't need to be right. Ollie came from. I was working with Alan Dye, who was helping me, who's creative director at Apple, and we came up with Ollie Slate. Like, Ollie for friendly, I wanted. I wanted to name. With each case, I come up with a jumping off word. So for method, I wanted to represent technique. Right? So you're in the gym, you use good technique to get force, because this was going to clean without force. So I was like, we want something that represents technique. And he's like, how about methane? I was like, that's it. With Ollie, everything in the category was pseudoscience, like Centrum or was very folksy, like Nature's Garden or Bounty. So I wanted a name that just sounded friendly. So he came up with Ollie's slate. And then we realized, Ollie, we were able to get it on its own, so we didn't need the slate part of it.

Sean Ogle (66:18)

You're, like, ripping through this story and it's like, insight, insight, insight. And like, you, you, you. You make it. You. You have what I call the knowledge, like the curse of knowledge, which is you think that this is. You're like, oh, yeah, I just did this. And then I just did that.

Sam Parr (66:32)

Like, and I don't think even tell us that. And that was so interesting. And what if we hadn't asked the question? We wouldn't have known that, like, how many more of those you got? It's like you're like, oh, well, I just do this. Of course, as one does, you pick a jump off word and then you. I was like, oh, I don't do anything like that. I just look.

Sean Ogle (66:48)

But like, you know, someone's a master when they. When they're fluid. They're fluid with this. And. And. And it's incredibly clear when you describe the simplest things that you are a.

Sam Parr (66:57)

Master jumping off word for. For welly.

Eric Ryan (67:00)

So for welly was. I wanted something about healthcare. And so we actually came up with Nightingale. So Nightingale, because of the idea of, like, Nightingale is like. She is like this icon and it's all about caring for you. And Anthony Spradutti and partners in spade came up with welly. And I was like, done most every time. I've never every name like cast we came up with for jewelry for again. Each time I saw the name, it was like, no debate. It was like, that is it. And then it's all hands on. How do we secure this name?

Sam Parr (67:34)

Amazing. Do you have another idea?

Eric Ryan (67:37)

One of my favorite foods, and I watch my kids go through it, is packaged cheese. So the Kraft singles mozzarella sticks. I have never seen anybody do anything really. So there's this big delta in cheese, too. You go to, like, the artisanal cheese counter, right? It is. It's art form. And we have this place, we live on Shelter island summer. And this guy Andrew runs the cheese wagon. It's literally a wagon. And my wife and I will go there every few days just because we'll sit there and taste the cheese with ab and it's like wine. He just romances it. So the. The gap is if you look at all the categories that have. Have taken a more artisanal approach, and then you go shop packaged cheese, it's the same thing as cheddar. Like mozzarella. It has not changed. And I love my favorite packaging form in the world are the most baby bells right in the wax. Like little pac mans that you split apart.

Sean Ogle (68:34)

Love it.

Eric Ryan (68:35)

So my idea is I want to create a line of gourmet cheeses in the. In the. You know, in the prepackage in those baby bell wax forms. But do really, like, take what they've started and go super gourmet with different flavor profiles in it and make that. That packaging form. I make it slightly bigger, too, different colors, but I would build a whole line of gourmet cheeses around it. And if anybody wants to do this, please reach out to me.

Sam Parr (69:05)

Sorry, you say it's for kids or it's not for kids. You're just saying I want to do the gourmet cheeses, but in this new packaging and in that aisle.

Eric Ryan (69:14)

Yes. Like, my boys love the baby bells. I want to do that for adults again. Taking something that's a kid product, but then elevate it as an adult product. And there's just something so fun about opening up that little wax. It's very sad.

Sam Parr (69:29)

Sam, you're a man child. Where does this land with you?

Sean Ogle (69:31)

Dude, I had three of these. So I do what I do what I call redneck fitness food. So last night, I just had three baby bells for dinner and I wrapped it in salami and just piled them in my mouth. I call it balls of fun.

Eric Ryan (69:44)

And so time to funds really fast.

Sam Parr (69:47)

Who are you telling this name to?

Sean Ogle (69:51)

You know, Sam's mouth. Surprised? I don't know. We're still working topping it. I'm not sure yet, but you could even squirt a little mustard at this this ball. But yeah, this is great. I love those cheeses. And I think they only make gouda and like the normal one.

Sam Parr (70:08)

What is it about that packaging? Does it actually because it's kind of softer inside, right? Is it. Is that because of the type of cheese or does. Does the packaging do that?

Sean Ogle (70:17)

Well, I think it's already like that. But you could just like grab it. It's just like I'll grab them and I'll literally put it in my pocket and like as I'm walking, I'll eat it.

Sam Parr (70:22)

Grab and go cheese. Okay, gotcha.

Sean Ogle (70:24)

And it's a single serve. It's a single serve. So like, it's like super easy. But yeah, it's definitely a convenience thing. Not necessarily. It's better tasting thing.

Eric Ryan (70:33)

But I think there's something very primal too about opening it so it feels natural back the wax. Like opening an orange. Like you feel like a little monkey just getting into your snack. And so it's in a time to fun on that is three seconds.

Sean Ogle (70:45)

Yeah, it's oddly. It's oddly satisfying whenever I peel back that wax. And then when you peel back the wax shot on, if you ever, ever done it, the two things open up and like the top part, does it fall off the bottom part of the wrapper?

Eric Ryan (70:56)

Yeah.

Sam Parr (70:56)

You ever seen this oyster?

Sean Ogle (70:57)

Have you? Yeah, it's like an oyster. Have you guys seen those new Coke bottles where you twist the cap off and then it peels back and the cap like stays on the bottle?

Sam Parr (71:05)

Oh, no, I haven't seen that.

Sean Ogle (71:06)

Oh, man. It's kind of like that. I love that. Just delightful.

Eric Ryan (71:09)

It's just so you can fully recycle the bottle then because the caps usually don't get recycled.

Sam Parr (71:12)

Now, we might be breaking the laws of physics here, but one of the most satisfying food experiences in the world is cracking the top of a Coke can. The sound and the like, literally, it's like an iconic sound of the tab. I wonder if there's a way to create some sound or satisfying crack here, but I think I'm making a good idea bad here.

Eric Ryan (71:33)

You've over innovated it. Yeah, one iteration.

Sean Ogle (71:37)

Yeah, it just blue bell or baby bell, Whatever. It's called but fancy cheese.

Sam Parr (71:41)

I also had an idea, so great minds think alike. I also had a cheese idea. Yours is better, but I'm just gonna say mine out loud in case there's something you wanna steal out of the carcass of this idea that I'm about to give you. This was like a dying idea ahead. But so my mother in law came over and she's great, but she's got mother in law. Itis a little bit where she's like, well, I know the answers to the test. And you're still trying to figure out the answers to the test, so let me just tell you what to do. And so for example, it'd be like, oh, he'll love this rice. Kids love rice. She'll just say these generic things like kids love rice, so your kid's gonna love rice. I'm like, no, no, he doesn't eat rice, doesn't like rice, blah, blah, blah. Or you know, milk. Like one of our kids wasn't really drinking like milk from like a milk, like a gallon of milk or whatever. And she was like, all kids love milk. Your kid's gonna love milk. And we're like, you can try, be my guest. But like this kid doesn't drink milk. And I was waiting for like the satisfaction of being right. And then five minutes later she's like, oh, he loves it. And I'm like, no way. And I go over and basically what she did was she would pour the milk into the top of the cap and give him like he got to have a tiny mini cup. And he was like into that. And so he was like, oh, like taking shots of milk, like a, like a, you know, like a spring breaker basically. And I couldn't believe it. And she was like, change of presentation. And so now this phrase, change of presentation has become a big deal. So anytime there's a food my kid doesn't eat, it's not a question of do they like it or not, it's what is the change of presentation we need to do to get them to eat it. So for example, bread was another. Didn't want bread. My wife takes a cookie cutter, like the star shape or whatever, and he gets to stamp out the bread. And now he likes that. And we're like, oh my God, change of presentation. So my cheese on you.

Sean Ogle (73:22)

And now your mother in law is the man of the house.

Sam Parr (73:25)

I think she already was. And I just was in denial for a period of time. But I too have now bent the knee. Like the tech CEOs like sucking up to Donald Trump. Basically like that's me now where I'm like, yes, mother, can we get more gold in this room? Love it.

Eric Ryan (73:39)

You know.

Sam Parr (73:40)

So basically my cheese idea is basically instead of just slices of cheese, you include a stamper and the stamper is like shapes that they can stamp the cheese into so they can play like Play doh stealing from Play doh and you basically get the play doh shape cutters but you apply it to cheese and you sell it together as a little pack. Basically. I think my kids would love that.

Eric Ryan (74:01)

I know how scalable that is. You gotta add.

Sean Ogle (74:04)

That's the problem. I don't know how you're talking about.

Sam Parr (74:10)

My mother in law. Did that come through? Was the audio good on that?

Sean Ogle (74:14)

When slash, when we sell 10 million versions of this, I don't know if we could afford the operations. That's.

Eric Ryan (74:21)

I agree with the insight of change of presentation. I don't know if I agree with the application of it there.

Sam Parr (74:27)

Turning it into a toy so like giving them a little thing that they can do to the food.

Eric Ryan (74:32)

I like that idea that I like as well. Again, it's like it could be a durable. It's to your point of like how do you make it a consumable. So it's an annuity so people keep buying it.

Sam Parr (74:42)

See he's in the cheese but he's a competitor now. So he doesn't like this idea because he's like all about his like artisanal cheese.

Eric Ryan (74:49)

This is, I'm going to do this baby bell.

Sam Parr (74:54)

Look out. His cheese comes with a little stamper and he's like, yeah, the hater said it wasn't scalable.

Sean Ogle (75:01)

Did Shaw just pitched craft singles that come with a cookie cutter?

Eric Ryan (75:06)

Exactly. I think he over complicated it.

Sam Parr (75:13)

The story is key to the understanding of the idea. In fact, the label is going to include the entire story that I said in verbatim in size 8 font.

Sean Ogle (75:22)

Instead of buying the chicken to support the chicken or a good farm, we're going to be supporting Sean to stick it to his mother in law.

Sam Parr (75:28)

What happened to the safe space where there's no bad ideas? You're like, watch what I do. If you bring a weak wimpy idea in here, let me give it a wedgie. So I want to leave you with a big picture question. You've, you've obviously done it, you've proven yourself, so that's good. You've made money doing what you have. You know, you're financially, you know, secure and free and all that. What is like the end of the story for you. Like, what are you trying to do? Do you have somebody in mind, a hero? You're like, oh, I kind of want to be like them. Do you think, like, 30 years down the road, like, I want to have done X, Y, Z? Do you not think about that at all? Like, how do you think about your life? Because, like, you could just keep doing this. Sounds fun. Is there a big picture?

Eric Ryan (76:08)

Yeah, no. I'm a planner, so there definitely is a big picture for me. At the heart of it, I love building and creating, and if I wasn't doing that, I think I'd be really miserable. But what I don't want to do anymore is be a CEO.

Sean Ogle (76:25)

Were you the CEO before?

Eric Ryan (76:27)

I've been CEO of my previous companies, yes. And I love being in it with a team and building it every day and in the trenches with your team and helping steer the ship. I absolutely love that as well. But I'm at the stage of my career that the pressures of raising capital and being able to answer to that capital, I want to be able to work, going back to projects, work across more things. So I'm splitting my time between continuing to incubate new ideas, but then I hire CEO and team, and I work alongside that team and then moving over to joining Greycroft to launch this consumer brands fund. Really now being able to, you know, be more of the coach and, and help work with entrepreneurs.

Sam Parr (77:07)

We've had a bunch of people come on here with that. The, the, the, the dream to have your cake and eat it too. It's like, I want to be part of the idea and like the start, but then like, the grind for 10 years. Like, I really want an operator to do that part. And some people have come on here and told us how they do that. Well, other people have been like, I don't know how to. I can't incept my idea and my energy into somebody else. That's a really hard transfer to do. Do you have, like, a talent? Like, how do you. How do you get the CEO to then, like, run your thing? Do you have a strategy around that or is it.

Eric Ryan (77:35)

It's hard. And that's what I've been doing. I've been doing more of an incubator model my last few startups where I've not been the CEO running it, but actually, you know, create the team. So really what I love doing is, like, create the concept, pull together the team and the capital. But the part of that that has been really hard is actually finding those leaders and you know, the reality of being an entrepreneur, it's iterative, right? You try something, it works or it doesn't work. You're constantly iterating your way to success in those early years, which means you're running up against roadblocks and things that worked and what didn't work. And what I found is there's a certain personality that can live in that uncertainty of a startup and stay committed to it. So when something doesn't work, instead of panicking, they quickly start taking the clues, figuring out, making adjustments, keeping the team confident, and bringing along with them that. That's the art of entrepreneurship. That is really, really tough to hire for because the ones who are good at it want to create. They probably have their own idea that they're working on. And what I found is I would hire very accomplished people, but their entire life had been fairly linear in their careers where, like, I, you know, I get good grades. It unlocks getting in this good college. I do really well at school. It unlocks getting the right, like, each thing unlocks the next step for them. And that's always work because they're incredibly smart, talented people. But that's not the reality in entrepreneurship. And so what I saw a pattern of, like, I would hire these incredibly accomplished CEOs, and then as soon as things would start going wrong, which they always do in a startup, they would really struggle through the mental games of that. That's the hardest part of this model.

Sean Ogle (79:06)

You're amazing. You know, every once in a while we have episodes that we're like, we have to have a part two and sometimes a part three and a part four, and hopefully that will be the case with you.

Eric Ryan (79:13)

No, let's do it. I would love to. And I feel the same. I'm walking away on Monday morning here with more energy. So I really appreciate it. This has been such a fun conversation. And if anybody loves our ideas, ideas out there and wants to pursue it, please, please reach out where the Eric.

Sean Ogle (79:29)

Ryan.com and then there's like a contact button. Is that right?

Eric Ryan (79:32)

Yeah, you could go to gobstop.com g o b s t o p.com it's for this idea that I try to build these everlasting gobstoppers and brands that continue to be able to refresh themselves and stay on trend. And like, you try to bake that into the, into the center when you create something new.

Sean Ogle (79:50)

You're a ridiculous human being. You're awesome. Like, you have, like, silly, crazy ideas, and yet you've been able to make potentially hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars off it. I mean, that's the dream. So thank you so much. You're the best.

Eric Ryan (80:04)

You guys are great. Thanks for a lovely conversation. I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it. Like, no days off on the road, let's travel, never looking back.

Sam Parr (80:17)

This episode is brought to you by HubSpot Media. They have a cool new podcast that's for AI called the Next Wave. It's by Matt Wolf and Nathan Lands, and they're basically talking about all the new tools that are coming out, how the landscape is changing, what's going on with AI tech. So if you want to be up to date on AI tech, it's a cool podcast. You could check out, listen to the Next Wave wherever you get your podcast.