B (1:41)

I don't even know how to do things like that. Like, sometimes I'm put in a situation, I'm like, oh, I need. This is where I'm supposed to be comforting. And I'm like. I realized I've never once done that. And, you know, like, the. It's like when you swing a tennis racket, the pressure is all off. You don't really Know like how much force to apply, how much not to. Like, why is my hand so sticky right now? Like, it's terrible.

A (1:59)

When I got engaged, I was like, I like started to put my knee down to the ground. A bat on the back will be fine.

B (2:10)

It's like the little things that you've never practiced that, that lunge and then giving a speech upwards, it's like a very strange thing.

A (2:17)

Yeah, like we just shake.

B (2:20)

Hey, put her there. Yeah, we did a pinky promise and that's held true. My brother in law, when my sister was giving birth, she like had like a longer labor. Like it was like so it was like taking a while. And then, you know, she like looks over at one point and he's like asleep, he's like napping on the couch in the room. And she was like, hey, get your ass up. He's like, oh, sorry. I'm just so like so ti. So stressed and tired and she was like, you're so stressed and tired and just the like the venom, pure venom in the bad situation. It was too much for him.

A (2:52)

Yeah, there's this funny joke. It's like, I'm so happy that women have to go through hours and hours of labor and ping so they can finally experience the pain that a man feels when he has a cold. But like I, we have two children now. I've experienced this. That basically, you know, we are all built for things and sometimes we rise to the occasion and women just somehow like can fight like being tired and in pain, whereas I'm just gonna complain if I get anything less than seven hours a night of sleep. So like, yeah, women kind of become like superheroes during that, those moments and, and I'm happy that she did that. So everyone's healthy and happy. I'm feeling great. I took two weeks off and I was like chopping at the bit to get back to it after like, honestly, four days.

B (3:39)

Like, I need a zoom call. Someone hit me with a zoom call today. What are we chomping at the bit to do exactly?

A (3:46)

Like, you know, your newborn child doesn't do anything, they just sleep. And I'm so happy you're bored.

B (3:52)

Yeah, yeah.

A (3:52)

Like, I'm so happy I get to experience with her. But then in this particular case we have a two year old and so I get to spend time with her, taking her to her classes and being like, just so you know, I love you so much and like you're important. Even though all this new stuff is happening. And so that like touched my heart and I'm so happy I had that. But I didn't need more than two weeks. Two weeks is more than enough. Did you agree?

B (4:10)

Yeah, 100%. Here's Again, this is, this is a zone of truth.

A (4:14)

So here's, yeah, let's, let's, let's clip this. This is going to be a rage bait clip that's going to go viral on a tech bros opinion on maternity leave. Go.

B (4:23)

Let me tell you how it actually is childbirth from the man's perspective. First of all, I would say a couple things. There's seems like there's two groups of people. There's the people who touch their baby, hold their baby for the first time and their life has changed and the endorphins kick in and there's like this entire like, you know, inner spiritual awakening. Didn't happen for me. It doesn't happen for a lot of people. Took it takes me like 15 months to love a baby. I care for the baby before then. I wish the baby well. I want no harm to be done to the baby. But do I crave like holding and touching and like, you know, doing the things my wife loves about a baby. She's like, oh, the smell. I'm like, the smell. I don't even smell the baby. What do you mean? Why are you smelling the baby?

A (5:02)

Can I save you? You love your baby, but you may not be in love with them.

B (5:07)

I mean that I might be a little generous.

A (5:09)

All right. I was just trying to talk to you on Lifeline.

B (5:11)

I cared for the baby, I wanted to love the baby, but I didn't actually feel anything for like 15 months. But then by the way, like after that it's, I'm all in. It's an incredible experience. And like my kids are, I have a one and a half year old, four year old, four year old and a six year old. And like, you know, I can't get enough now but, but that same like can't get enough feeling. I didn't have that as a newborn, but kind of normal from the man's perspective. I, I think the second thing is paternity leave a little bit confusing. What I actually think is useful, take the week off before birth to like do little stuff around the house. Just be there, be a calming presence and like, kind of like, I don't know, take the, take the load of everyday life off of, you know, your partner before birth. I think that's actually really useful then, you know, the first week or so, the first few days, just you want to have a calendar clear because you Never know what's going to happen in a birth. You never know what's going on after that. You're really kind of like, not that. Not particularly useful, I would say, or like, I felt this way. I wasn't particularly useful in and kind of wish. And I ended up doing this with my other kids, like, you know, plan time. That's, like, more intermittent at other intervals. So there's like, let's say the two weeks kind of week before the birth, week after the birth. That's a good window. Then there's kind of like two weeks, let's say around month, month, three or four, where sometimes you get a sleep regression or you get other things. And so spreading out the paternity, I think is very useful. When you just sit there sort of like at this. The baby's an inanimate object at the beginning and doesn't really do a lot of naps a ton. And like, assuming health went well, knock on wood, there's not a whole lot to do. So I kind of agree with you that initial paternity leave is a lot of, like, nervous energy and not a lot of, like, productive help.

A (6:51)

Yeah. And it made me realize that, like, taking time off and like, vacationing and going somewhere is kind of, like, lame compared to taking time off and just sitting at home and walking around your town, like, that's actually kind of like a special feeling. It honestly felt like a. Like a. A weak mini retirement because I was like, I really, like, putt around in the morning and not rush. Right. All right. I read a ton. I would say almost a book a week. And the reason I read so much is because my philosophy towards reading is I want to see what works for the winners that I love and what strategies they use. And then I want to see what mistakes did they all make, what were the common flaws that they all had? And I just want to avoid that. And so HubSpot asked me to put together a list of the books that have changed my life so far in 2025. And I did that. And so I listed out seven books that made a meaningful difference in my life. And I explained what the differences that they had on me or what actions I took because of the book. And then also I listed out my very particular ways of reading because I'm pretty strategic about how I read and how I read so much and how I remember what I read and things like that. And so I put this together in a very simple guide. It's seven books that had a huge impact on my life. And you can scan the QR code below if you want to read it. Or there's a link. You guys know what to do. There's a link in the description. Just go ahead and click it and you'll see the guide that I made. So it's the seven books that had a massive change in my life this year so far, and then also how I'm able to read so much. So check it out below. Dude, have you ever read. Have I told you about Aristotle? Like, I've been interested in some of his work lately.

B (8:21)

You haven't told me about Aristotle. Go, go, go on.

A (8:24)

So stoicism gets a lot of the credit right now. Stoicism is quite popular.

B (8:28)

Yeah. So hot right now.

A (8:29)

Yeah. So, yeah, Marcus Aurelius is. Is. Is the itch at the moment, but Aristotle is one of the folks who influenced a lot of these guys. And I'm probably gonna get a lot of it wrong, so spare me in the comments. But basically, like, what I've been obsessed with this idea that he has is this idea of flourishing. And so I think the Greek word of it is udamame. And it's this idea that, like, there's like 12 or 14 virtues. And so, like, in order to be courageous, which is one of his virtues, on the right hand side is reckless, like being reckless. And then on the left hand side is basically being like a. I don't know the right word, but like being soft. Timid. Yeah, being timid. And the middle part is courageous. And then there's like 14 of them, which is like, to be charitable, you want to. You. There's.

B (9:16)

That's kind of cool. So it has the extremes where the. The virtue becomes a vice on either side. Right. The over overdoing it and then underdoing it.

A (9:25)

Okay, I like that. And then there's like charitable. On one side is like, being like, ostentatious and like giving too much and actually hurting people, which is like what, like, a lot of, like, rich rappers would do. Like, give all their friends, like, money.

B (9:35)

Like, enable your posse.

A (9:37)

Yeah. And then the other one is like, being like, you know, take a pussy again. Yeah. And so according to Aristotle, one of the ways to live a harmonious life that's full of flourishing, which is the not trying to be happy, but to flourish, you have to, like, have these, like, 14 virtues. And also he talks about leisure time and how a lot of times people think of leisure time as a way to recoup from work. But according to him, a perfect life, a happy life, a flourishing life, needs to have some leisure time where you get to reflect and the reflection is the goal, not the time that you take to, like, refuel. And I have been really obsessed with a lot of his. His work because it's incredibly. It's an incredibly practical philosophy. A lot of, like, philosophical stuff is not particularly practical. But. But I was, like, experiencing work recently, and I was going. I was so happy to go home to see my family. I was happy to get up in the morning to work out. And I was like, why do I feel this way? What's going on? And I was like, I am flourishing. I'm fucking flourishing. That's how I felt. I'm like, this is a. This is. This is. It's like, I don't feel happy necessarily. Like, I feel like I'm working hard. But at the moment, stress does not equal pain. Stress equals growth. And so I felt wonderful. And so taking my two weeks off has just added to that, where I was like, I feel. I feel refreshed. But I had so much time to reflect and to, like, think about things, and I love that. And the importance of being leisure and the importance of having unscheduled time, which I know you do. I think you said 20 days a year. And so what's interesting is that you, You. It seems as though you have come to a similar conclusion that Aristotle has come to, which is the idea of, like, leisure time just to reflect and just to think. And we've heard Bill Gates talk about that. He has one week a year, I think, where he only. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (11:21)

I really like that. I. I think I'm pretty poor at one thing you said in there, which is just making time to think. Like, if I look at my calendar, I do have a lot of leisure time. I play the piano, go do a tennis lesson. I'll go play basketball. I'll do my workout. I'll play with my kids. I do a lot of other stuff besides work. So I get this kind of, like, you know, fun life, maybe a harmonious life, maybe a balanced life. But what I don't do is I don't actually spend a lot of time in silence and, like, dedicated think time. And I've been trying to get better at this, but in trying to get, you know, when you try to get better at something, you actually. The first realization is how far you have to go, like, how. How poor you actually are. It's sort of like flexibility. You know, it's not really top of mind until somebody says, oh, can you do this test? And then you realize like, oh my God, no, I'm not even close. That's how I am about think time. I don't know about you, but like I would say for in the past decade, the amount of dedicated time that I plan to think, like, I'm like, oh, I'm not, I'm just actively not going to do something right now. I'm not going to fill it with something else. That was like zero. I honestly think it was zero for like a day. The last decade of my life. I don't think I ever actually consciously spent think time. Now I would think when I was driving I would think of something in the shower, but this is like an accident. It's a happy accident. My brain was probably like, oh, dude, we've got these thoughts queued up. We've been waiting to have a moment here where you're not stuffing in new stuff into your brain. Through your phone, through your tv, through your computer, through a meeting, through doing something, through reading whatever it was. And so dedicated think time, I think is extremely underrated. I think I'm at the beginning part of that curve where I'm just starting to do it and I'm just realizing, oh man, this is so obvious. And I really wasn't doing this before. I remember when we met Tim Ferriss, I asked him sometimes like, oh, what does Tim Ferriss do day to day? He's like, oh dude, this is like the question I get a lot, like, what is my daily routine? And he's like, I think people expect like a really awesome answer. He's like, I've actually been asked for like a writer from some magazine, like, hey, we want to follow you for a day and write a profile or we want to film like a one day documentary of Tim Ferriss day in the life. And he's like, I've always said no, not just because I like privacy, but because it would be incredibly boring. He's like, I, he's like, you know, I wake up and I, I sort of, I stretch, I'll drink some tea, you know, I sit down. He's like, I kind of putter around for quite a, quite a while. And I have like long periods of time of inaction where I'm just trying to think of what is it that I really want to do and what is it that I actually should do in this situation? How do I want to approach this? Do I really want to do this? And I actually like spend time with my thoughts. I remember hearing that and being like, oh, I don't do none of that. Stuff. It's like when you hear, like, a really productive manager talk about how they like all the thoughtful things they do to manage their employees, and you're like, ooh, I just had a pizza party, like, a month ago. I thought that was good. I thought that was enough.

A (14:13)

I think that you said something funny about shower thoughts. I don't think a lot of people realize that you can help engineer breakthroughs. I think that there's things in your life that you could do to. Yeah, engineer breakthroughs. And I've been thinking about what that is. For me, it's been slow mornings, so I try my hardest to get up earlier than I actually have to because I like just to walk around and drink coffee, and then I'll wake children up or then I'll exercise, but literally just 30 minutes just to poke around. I like working out, so I have breakthroughs on working out. I have breakthroughs when I'm journaling. I have breakthroughs when I'm reading, and I have breakthroughs when I have organized times of talking with people, but without an agenda. So I'll have someone interesting at my office because they're in town. I'm like, I don't know, man. Just. Let's just riff for 30 minutes. What's your story or what you've done? You had a breakthrough when you started the Milk Road after you went to a conference on a topic that had nothing to do with your interest. Yeah, but, like, this is why conferences are great. This is why I hope Hampton is great. This is why sometimes people, like, they get us a little bit through listening to our podcast, where they, like, kind of feel like they're around us, but, like, talking to other people and just listening to their opinion without an agenda, I think is another great way to have a breakthrough.

B (15:16)

Yeah, I've been right. I told you. I was writing this book, and the premise of the book was I got really. It happened accidentally. I started embarrassing. I was trying to be funnier as. Therefore, I started studying comedy, which is, like, not really what I think any funny person has ever done. So probably not the best way to do it. But I got really into Seinfeld, and then through that, I was like, wow, this guy's not just about comedy, but, like, this guy's got, like, a way of working that is really interesting. An approach, a mindset, and a date. Literally, like, a set of daily habits that are pretty admirable. And I started studying other great people. Like, how do all the great ones work? How do all of them actually. Like, what are the habits of the great people who've done great things. Because I want to be a great person who does great things. Anyways, along the way, one of the things that surprised me, right? Which I think when you're researching anything, it's the surprises that you look for. One of the things that surprised me was how much engineered rest matters. So I'll just give you three quick ones on this. So Aaron Sorkin, who wrote West Wing and the Social Network, this great Hollywood script writer or whatever, when he's writing a script, he takes eight showers a day. He says he will just keep showering. He's like, because I have my best thoughts in the shower. There's all this science about why warm water and relaxed environment, no distractions, actions. Why this is actually like quite a good way to like, let your brain sort of, you know, let the muscles relax a little bit and how you come up with more out of the box ideas. It's also just a reset. Like every time he gets stuck, he goes and showers and it gets, he quickly gets through the plateau because he does that Einstein used to. Do you know about Einstein's boat?

A (16:49)

No, no. I, I, I wouldn't have pegged Einstein as a boater.

B (16:53)

He was a prolific boater to the point where the Coast Guard had a lot of problems with Einstein. So what Einstein would do is in the middle of the day, Einstein would basically get on like a tiny little boat and he would just float. It was a no motor boat. He would just like float away into the, into the sea. And he would stay there for hours. And he would stay there because he's like, I do my best thinking out here in the sea. And I would, and he would do it aimlessly in the afternoons. And the Coast Guard was really worried because they're like, dude, you don't have a motor attached to your boat. How are you going to get back if the tide, like pulls you too far? And he's like, the further the better was basically his quote around what he wanted to do. And that's where he did most of his quality thinking. I was telling my wife this and she goes, oh, yeah. At work we had this lady come in, this neuroscientist, and she told us, you do your best thinking in motion or in water. This is why so many people walk and why they swim. Pavel Durov was on Lex Friedman talks about how he goes for four hour swims. Cause he does his best thinking when he's swimming. And that's one of his routines. Like, it's great. I Get fitness. And I get thinking at the same time. He's like, guess what? You can't be on your phone when you're in the middle of a lake for four hours. Like, you know, you're just, you're out there. Another one, Darwin. Darwin used to go for these walks and whenever he was noodling on a problem, oh, I got a problem. Go for a walk. Which is, I think, not really how most people in today's age solve their problems. I think they stare at their screen and sit there and kind of just sit in a stationary position, try to get through it. And you produce pretty low quality ideas when you do that. But what Darwin would do is he would get up, he would go for a walk, and he used to walk these laps and every lap he would kick a stone at the same spot. He would knock one stone off where his starting point was. And he would talk about his problems as like four stone problems, five stone problems. Like, he could measure the difficulty of the problem by how many stones it took, how many laps it took of him walking before he felt like he had like, kind of like made headway on the problem. And so this idea of engineered rest, which looks incredibly unproductive when you're doing it right, like taking a nap. You know, so many, so many of the great inventors and artists did these like quick mini 20 minute naps. There's all this science behind why that works. And so, you know, these mini naps or going for walks or going for a swim, it literally looks like you're not working. It looks like you're being elated. Crazy bastard. But like, if you look at how the great ones actually work, this is part of their productivity routine and it looks completely unproductive.

A (19:09)

Six or 12 months ago, you were debating on like a big project. You're like, I'm being pulled in a variety of directions and I can't decide what I want to do, but my heart is telling me to do something creative, almost like a play. And I was like, oh, that sounds pretty badass. That sounds amazing. And it sounds like I don't think a book on creativity was even on the list, but that actually sounds even more badass than all these because you're describing this and I'm like, I want this book. I need this. Not only do I want this, I'm like, I have problems. I should go for a three stone walk and like, give me more tips and tricks on how to solve my problems. And now I can think better. Tell me about the book. So how many Pages, like, is this gonna be like a 2 and 3 or 400 page book? Or is this like.

B (19:48)

So the premise of. The premise of what I'm doing. I guess this will be my. My announcement.

A (19:54)

No, we'll do a whole podcast dedicated to the.

B (19:56)

No, no. But I guess, like, I. What I mean is, like, I can just go ahead and share it. So what I'm doing is I've created this. It's actually a little bit like a franchise, like a series. And, you know, I have this problem with books where I buy a ton of books and I want to read a ton of books, and I don't really read a ton of books. And if you kind of like one of the reasons why books are long and slow, and books are long and slow, not because a 300 page book needed to be 300 pages. It's really a relic of the publishing industry. So, like, if you go talk to publishers and I've done this and you want to publish a thinner book, they're like, ooh, but it's not going to sell as well. And they're like. Because people, when they want to spend whatever, 15 bucks, they need to feel like they're getting value. Like, they literally need to hold a heavier object. And that was why whatever the size of your idea was, guess What? We need 250 pages, right? Because we want to sell this book and it needs to have this sort of weight to it. And I actually understand that. I think there's a cool physical component of that. But also, how many books have you read that could have been a blog post? It's like, how many meetings could have been an email? There's a lot of books that actually are not a couple of great ideas. And then there's 200 pages of fluff. And you're like, okay, I got it, I get it. So it's one of my biggest pet peeves. And when I studied how the great creatives work, one of the things they do really well is they pay a lot of attention to their irritation. Seinfeld said irritation is what breeds innovation. So he said he used to hate. He used to get invited to go on late night talk shows, like Jimmy Fallon or whatever. He's like, dude, I hated it. It was so formulaic. It was so cookie cutter. It was so, like the same thing. So that's why he created Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee, right? It was like, what's the exact opposite of that talk show? It's like me and my friend in a car driving go get coffee. Like, no audience no applause sign, no any of that stuff. Like my, I'll take all my irritations of this and I'm just gonna do the opposite. And then that's what I'm gonna, I'm gonna use that as the, like the, the force and the energy to create something better. And so I decided to create this series called One Hour Books. And the idea is, can I create books that are, you know, if you read it, it's a life changing book, but you can read it in one hour, a single sitting. So like if you buy the book and you decide to read it in one sitting on a couch, you'll actually like consume the whole book and you'll get everything you needed out of the book, whatever the book's promise was. And so I'm creating this series called One Hour Books. And I'm doing it on different topics that I've been, any topic that I've gotten obsessed with. And so, you know, like, if I have a period of time where I'm really obsessed about value investing or Warren Buffett, how these great investors think, I want to basically take the most powerful ideas, the best ideas that I got in my research, the things that surprised me that I actually then started to use in my life. And so, for example, with this creativity book, it changed the way I'm approaching being a creator. I work completely differently than I did 12 months ago. And it's because I basically stole shit from Seinfeld and Disney and Rick Rubin and Pixar. Like all these people that I went and went and studied and actually tried to figure out, you know, a better way to work. And so yeah, the book's only going to be like, I don't know, 75 pages going to be, it's going to be enough for you. It's going to be the size of a book you could read in one sitting. Actually, if anybody from the podcast wants to check out the book early and kind of get see a behind the scenes thing, just go to OneHourBooks Co, I'll put it on the screen and in the description. But if you go to OneHourBooks Co, I'm just gonna let anybody sign up. And if you're a fan of the pod, I kind of want to show you how I'm making the book, the behind the scenes stuff and give you a free gift when it launches. So go there if you wanna check that out.

A (23:18)

And are you gonna go through a publisher or self publish?

B (23:20)

I don't know yet. It doesn't really matter. All that matters right now is make one amazing book. I can't really like anything else. Doesn't really matter. It's like one book that I am like, oh, man, if I read this, this would go in my kind of top shelf. This would be one of my favorite books. Cause it actually resonated with me. And the story's really dope. Made me laugh, you know, that that's. Those are some of the goals with, with how I do this.

A (23:40)

If I had to bet this is gonna be the most successful thing you've ever done. Because my instinct, and I don't wanna do this right now, but is to like, oh, can you just tell me all of the things that you learned from Rick Rubin, all these people? Like, it's like, I want to apply this immediately.

B (23:54)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I could and I will tell you all those things. But yeah, I think it's gonna be great. Like, I honestly like the way I have this really. I try to. When I do a project, I try to find like a kind of three word, almost like North Star or campaign slogan for myself. Just like, as I wander through the idea and you start to go down different little rabbit holes and you hit little bumps and bruises, you sort of need something to come back to. And mine for this is create the TED for books. So, like, I don't. TED today is not as cool as it was, but when I was younger, TED was the shit. Like TED Talks, TED videos. Like, those were amazing. And what they did, going to a.

A (24:32)

TED event, going to a TED event was like, like, I just imagined myself like, I'm going to be hobnobbing with like the President of America. I'm going to be like Bill Gates. Like, it was like an honor.

B (24:42)

And what they did was they created a format. So they're like, yo, here's what we're going to do. 18 minute talks that are on this kind of beautiful stage. And it's going to be a certain quality of person who comes at you with one big idea, One kind of like either counterintuitive idea or one powerful idea. And then the mission was ideas worth sharing, right? And like, I actually fuck with that. I think that's actually like incredible. And although TED has kind of fallen off, it did help me because as I'm doing this, I'm like, all right, well, I'm trying to find the best ideas worth sharing. And I want to create a format that's consistent and like a proposition. I'm going to spend literally 10,000 hours researching this and I'm going to give you all of the best stories and ideas structured together in a one hour book. Like 10,000 hours of my time for one hour of your time is like just an incredible trade that I think anybody should make because I'm like going all in on this. And so I've been working on this for like a year now. And it's tough, man. It's just, it's a hard thing to do, but I think it's coming out pretty good.

A (25:34)

What makes so I always hear people say writing a book is hard. Tim Ferriss was like, I don't wish it on my worst enemy. And I'm like, really? I mean, I've never done it, but I'm like, this sounds pretty great. You just spend all this time thinking and writing and you get like two years to do it. That sounds lovely, but what are the downsides?

B (25:51)

Well, oh, I mean, there's a ton of downsides. You don't do this if you're looking for anything quick. You don't do this if you're looking for high chance of success. So like the two things I think most people want, it's like a high chance of success and for it to happen fast. I mean, books are, you know, they go the exact opposite way. It's typically a one to two year process, sometimes five. You know, George R.R. martin sitting there, still trying to write a book for like 13 years. So, you know, these books are, they take a long time, very low odds of success. And even when they do succeed, it's nothing compared to like, if I went and built a company or like in my portfolio right now. There's things that are far more, far easier, far more valuable to do. Podcasts, far easier, far more valuable to do than, than to write a book. You don't write the book for other people. You write the book for yourself, I think is the only way to do it. And I think one of the great things that happened when I talked to some people who, who, you know, talk to people for advice is they go, look, a hundred people come to me because, oh, you wrote a bestseller. People want to ask you about a book and they say, everybody wants to have written a book. Nobody wants to write a book. And so the very first thing is you got to figure out, like, do you want to have written a book or do you want to write a book? That's why I chose a subject that basically is like, currently fascinating to me and applies to my. I get to be the lab rat of doing the things that are in the book, like using the actual principles because it's like, what I needed. It's the book I needed right now. Even though it's probably not the thing I know the most about, or it's the most relevant or the most marketable or any of those other possible factors.

A (27:18)

Dude, this is badass. This is so exciting. And it feels. I don't think you. I've heard you light up about a project for a while.

B (27:24)

Well, I was. I was looking for a challenge. You know that I was looking for a challenge. I was looking for something that's new, that's something that's hard for me. This is like the opposite of my. I'm an improv guy. I'm a quick guy. I'm an unscheduled guy. I'm like, that's what I've known and that's what I've done well with. So this is, like, very different. It's like, requires consistency, requires sitting down every single day, and, like, don't miss a day type of mentality, which is good. It's also what I needed to get in shape. It's also what I need to do to learn the piano. Like, all the things I'm trying to do right now, they all require the same set of muscles internally to go and actually succeed in them. Also, the other thing that's hard about it is when you do things that are like, I'm going to make a hundred of these. Any one doesn't matter. But with a book, you're like, I'm going to make one. I'm going to make this one book. And it's going to be what it's going to be. The level of internal pressure you put on yourself to make it great. And to be like, no, no, I got to get this right. I don't get to. It's not like, oh, I'll just get started and then we'll iterate from there. It doesn't really work that way. You want to put one great thing out. There's a craftsman like nature to that. And there's something cool about that constraint that you're only going to make. Like, you're only going to really write this thing once. So you better do it the best you possibly could. Because it's not something where you're going to get a hundred shots on goal at the same idea.

A (28:33)

I could never do this. Or maybe I would one day. But, like, the best books that I read, like, I think Ron Chernow is one of my favorite authors. He wrote Titan, which is the story of John Rockefeller. He wrote Hamilton, which became Hamilton. And he's written one on Mark Twain and a couple others. And it's these. They're biographies. He's a biographist. Same with Robert Green. If you ever read Robert Greene. It's like every sentence is packed with, like, every sentence is very purposeful. And it's not even the. It's in all those. Those two authors. They're not particularly easy to read, but every sentence is full of stuff. And it's like a thousand or eight hundred pages. And I'm just, like, in awe. It's sort of like when you go to Yosemite for the first time and you see, like, Half Dome and you're like, I can't believe that something is this big and beautiful. And I don't even like the outdoors. And when I read, like, every once in a while, I've read a book where I'm like, this is like a religious experience. Not necessarily because of the content, but because of how much effort this person put into it. And it's just. It's a marvel. When I think about Harry Potter, I'm like, how on earth did this one lady invent this world? She literally invented a language. And I don't even like Harry Potter, but I'm, like, in awe of this.

B (29:41)

That's another example of you get your best ideas in motion or in water. The idea for Harry Potter sort of drops into her head when she's on a train ride. She's, like, in motion and sitting there and idle and doesn't have Internet access and can't do 10 other things. There's nothing else you could do when you sit on a train except for think. And that's when your brain is open for. For, you know, creative inspiration.

A (30:01)

Do you think that doing deep work is good, is harder today than it was before the Internet? Because when you're talking about writing a book, I'm like, I struggle to get people to quit messaging me. And I like. And I'm absolutely addicted to my notifications. Like, I can't have an unread text message, but then I have text, slack, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, email.

B (30:19)

Well, let me give you. Let me give you one of the quotes I think there's going to be in one of the first few pages of the book. So Shonda Rhimes, who is, you know, a prolific creator, right? So she's, you know, Netflix gave her $100 million, not for stuff she's already made, but just to make new things. Like, you're getting paid $100 million for your reputation. Your ability to create great, great stuff in the future. And so, you know, she created Bridgerton and Grey's Anatomy and a bunch of other hit shows.

A (30:45)

Okay, so lived in my little town of Westport.

B (30:48)

Really? Well, she was talking about her process. She was like, okay, like, you know, they're like, how does your creative process work? How do you work? Again, the same idea. How do the great ones actually work? And here's how she described, like her morning. And so she goes, imagine a door five miles away and those five miles to go, the five miles that's you writing crap and doodling and just trying to have an idea. And then you sometimes are surfing the Internet and you're hoping like hell you're not going to get so distracted that you give up. And worse, those five miles that you got to run, they're lined with cupcakes and episodes of Game of Thrones and Idris Alba wants to talk to you and there's really great books you could go read. And every time I sit down to write, I mentally have to run those five miles past all that shit to get to the door. It's a long, hard five mile run. And sometimes I'm almost dead by the time I get to the door. And that's why I keep doing it, because the more often I run the five miles, the fitter I become, and the fitter I become, the easier it is to run and the less fresh and exciting all that stuff on the side of the road starts to seem. I mean, how long have those brownies even been sitting there? And more importantly, the fitter I run, the faster I run, the faster I run, I get to the door and behind the door is where all the good shit is. That's where the great ideas lie, is behind the door.

A (31:56)

That gives me goosebumps.

B (31:58)

I know, right? And so, like, when I sit down every day, so every day I wake up and I spend two hours, I call it eating shit for breakfast. It's like, you're going to make something that probably sucks today, but you're going to sit down and you're going to make it. You're going to do your five mile run. You're going to go and you're going to ignore the distractions of the world. You're going to do deep work on the one thing that matters, the main project, your Mount Everest, in your mind of that you're trying to create. And all it takes is two hours first thing in the morning without any other distraction. So I focused on doing that. And this idea that like at the beginning, when you sit down, you start to do the thing. Your initial work kind of sucks. Your, the first few sentences you write suck. Your first few ideas for that marketing campaign kind of suck. It's all going to kind of suck. You just have to keep going to get to the door. Behind the door is where the good stuff is. And like, if you have that mentality, what ends up happening is you push past where the sort of. The amateur will give up, the amateur will sit down and, you know, they'll start to do something and it kind of sucks. And then they'll seek a reason to stop. Whether it's a distraction or it's talking themselves out of it or it's settling one of many things you could do. And you know what I thought was different about the pros versus the amateurs are the pros just have better talent. You know, when they sit down, they make good shit. When I sit down, I make bad shit. It's like, no, no, no. Actually the difference is when the pro sits down, they make the same type of bad shit you do. They just keep going. And they go. They go through the five miles. Yeah, they sit down more and they stick with it. They're able to face their own mediocrity and tolerate it much longer than you can.

A (33:25)

Paul Graham's got this amazing article on procrastination that kind of changed my life. And so according to Paul Graham, who's the founder of yc, one of the most successful business incubators of all time, maybe the most successful, he said there's three types of procrastination. The first type of procrastination is you just don't do the thing that you're supposed to do, which is like the most common. The second type of procrastination is incredibly common amongst ambitious people, which is they say to themselves, I'm researching or I'm writing a to do list, or I'm doing these things that have professional sounding words, but in reality it's procrastination. You know, it's completely worthless. And then the third type of procrastination, that's the best type of procrastination. That's a good type of procrastination. And he goes, I'll explain what it is. But first, everyone has this idea of like the forgetful scientist, the Albert Einstein who has two socks that are like different colors or, or he hasn't showered and he looks kind of dirty. That type of procrastination, that's actually the good type of procrastination. Because if you do your life's task, if you do the work that you're supposed to be doing, that means you have to ignore other things. And sometimes that means you have to ignore things that the world thinks is really important, like having two socks that matches and, like, thinking, like, oh, I have to do laundry so I can look a certain way. He goes. But the reason people would make fun of, like, Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg when they were young, because they would wear hoodies all the time and wear pajama bottoms all the time and be like, well, why aren't you wearing a suit? Why aren't your clothes nicer? And they didn't have a good answer at the time. But the reality was, is that they were focused on their life's work. They weren't focused on how to look good, how to appease other people, but they were actually doing the best type of procrastination. And that's what it requires to be great, is you have to do that. You have to avoid the first two types, and you have to focus on the third type of procrastination. And that's gonna be annoying to a lot of people. It's gonna piss off a lot of people. But that's the way you do your life's work.

B (34:57)

I love that. I mean, this type of stuff just fires me up. So, like, that's great. I love that.

A (35:03)

It's great, man. I like when I read that, I was like, so good.

B (35:05)

I was like, you just might have got yourself quoted in the book, my friend.

A (35:07)

Yeah, I was like, hey, actually, Google Sam Parker Crown Foundation. I wrote. I wrote an article about it, but I was like. To my wife, I was like, yes, Sarah. Like, get off my back.

B (35:17)

Doing my life's work over here. She's like, you're on Twitter.

A (35:20)

Repeat after me, Sarah. Life's work. Not take trash out. It didn't land. Just. I just printed off his article. I slid it her way during dinner, and I'm like, read that.

B (35:35)

That's amazing. Today's episode is brought to you by HubSpot. Because using only 20% of your business data is like dating somebody who only texts you in emojis. First of all, that's annoying. And second, you're missing a lot of the content. But that's how most businesses are operating today. They're only using 20% of their data. Unless you use HubSpot. That's when all your emails, your call logs, your chat messages, they turn into insights to help you grow your business. Because all that data Makes all the difference. Learn more@HubSpot.com I do want to share a thing that I think you'll appreciate. I didn't plan to share this, but I think you'll, you'll appreciate it, so I'll say it. So, as you know, my grandfather died 98 years old.

A (36:10)

Was he in America?

B (36:11)

In America. He lives in D.C. and so I flew to D.C. and we go to the funeral and you know, funerals are, they are what they are. They're sad. But you know, I think 98 years old, he had a great life. He was healthy for almost all, almost to the very end.

A (36:25)

Are Indian funerals like traditional American funerals or do you guys like, ham it up your weddings?

B (36:30)

They do cremation and there's also some like, I don't know, parts that you're like, is this what we're supposed to be doing right now? Like, they basically have like the casket is kind of too much info. But like they have the casket or whatever. And I think like an American, I don't know really exactly happens at American funerals. But I would assume like you sort of, you go, you sort of give your thoughts and prayers, whatever. You maybe put a flower down or something like that. At any funeral right before they have the kind of the send off, the final thing right before cremation guy like breaks out like a gallon of milk, a bunch of food. And like you basically pour all this stuff on top of the body. It's like, feels like completely blasphemous. And I was, I like put like a drop. He's like, no, no, the whole gallon.

A (37:10)

And I was like, grandpa's thirsty, Sean.

B (37:12)

Pouring milk all over this. Man, this is ridiculous. So that part was a little bit strange, but the rest was, I would say, you know, normal. And people gave their eulogies and whatnot. So my dad goes up there and gives a speech. And my dad had told me this story before. And you just had a kid. And so this is kind of for all the dads out there. So the best thing my grandpa ever did as a dad, which I'm gonna steal. And I think others should steal it too. So my dad and my family, my, my dad's family grew up like dirt, dirt poor India, like middle of nowhere. It's like, you know, you go on Google Maps, you gotta like zoom in, pinch to zoom three times to even see the little town that my dad grew up in. And like somehow my dad, like, you know, was born there and now like 60 something years later, he's got like A mansion in San Francisco and, like, an iPhone in his pocket. It's like kind of like crazy that, like, that that kid ends up doing this. This doesn't really make a lot of sense. Okay?

A (38:04)

So, like, imagine your dad being like, my son is going to be a famous YouTuber in America. You know what I mean? Like, or he's gonna be writing books on creativity. It's a wild journey.

B (38:14)

Millions dollars to talk. It's like, it doesn't make any sense. So how do you get from there to there? And so he was. He was telling the story. He's like, you know, we grew up, like, we couldn't afford anything. Like, you know, we. He's like, I hadn't seen a movie till, you know, movies existed I hadn't seen until I was 16. And, you know, the day we went, we got one bottle of Coca Cola and split it amongst, like, the, you know, four kids type of deal. Like, it was like, that was like a highlight of my childhood. Like, I still remember that memory today. Anyways, one of the things that he says that his dad did for him, he goes, my dad gave me. He goes, he didn't have money. Couldn't give me fancy anything, right? Couldn't send me to a fancy school. He didn't have. We didn't have a lot of toys. He didn't give me anything in that area, right? He goes, but the one thing he did give me was he gave me this belief from the very beginning, he brainwashed me that I was special. And he goes, there was no evidence I didn't do anything special, but he just felt like I'm special. And he just kept saying it. He's like. He would say it in public. So he's like. He would take me to his job. My grandfather worked, I think, at like, kind of like a government, like, almost like a. Like a weapons factory, basically for the government. And he would take them there and like, the boss, his boss, the manager of the factory would be like, oh, like, there's the little one. There's my guy. Hey, here, wear the hard hat. Like, you know, someday you'll. You can be here.

A (39:27)

You.

B (39:27)

You can run this, you know, this. This place. And my grandfather would be like, to go to his boss and be like, no way. He goes, this. This boy, my boy, he's not going to work in a factory. This boy's special. You don't know. This boy's special. He's going to do incredible things. He's going to be in America. He's going to be doing Incredible things. Someday he's not going to work in a factory. And so just like he kind of breathed this, this belief into him and he just, he's like, he always said it, he never had, he never explained why he believed it or what, what, how it would happen. But he was just so sure that I became kind of sure. And I just started to believe that about myself. And so like he goes, that was like almost like inject. He gave me like a magic bean. And this being was like my belief in myself. And I see this all the time with my kids where it's very easy to criticize kids because kids do dumb stuff all the time. It's very easy to like tell them off for not doing things the right way. It's very easy to, you know, like mix sort of this praise and criticism. But my brother in law has been doing the same thing with his daughter who showed a little bit of talent in soccer. And then he like went all in and was like, he created an Instagram account called Raising Ronaldo. When he's like, I'm raising Ronaldo right now. I'm not. This is not my daughter. This is the next Ronaldo. And he puts posters up and he just continues, oh, when you're playing pro, I'm going to be in the crowd. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that.

A (40:48)

Is this Aaron?

B (40:49)

Aaron?

A (40:49)

Yeah.

B (40:49)

He's been saying this for like eight years now. She's 10, you know, like, she's like, you know, she's young, she believes and she works like somebody who is the next. Like, like, like she's training like, you know, seven days a week, no days off on vacation. They take the ball, they go do a hundred, you know, like when they keep the ball, their juggles, like 100 juggles in a row. Like they don't do breakfast before that. Like, it's incredible. And it reminded me of. I'm gonna read you this.

A (41:13)

Is she into it? Is the. Is. Is brother Aaron's daughter into it?

B (41:17)

And by the way, like, she's into it, which makes it sound like, oh, that's easy. My kid wouldn't be into it. Well, I was there. And like, it's not as black or white with a kid. Like, some days they're into it, some days they're tired and cranky. Some days they have a hard, you know, he puts her. She only plays basically against boys. And so it's harder to play against boys, boys that are a year or two older than her. And sometimes she doesn't get to dominate, and she, you know, has a tough game or whatever. And like, on those days, guess what? She doesn't want to go do it again the next day. He doesn't force her to do anything. But he, like, never. He never wavers in his conviction. And that, like, has, over time, it has overwhelmed her. It is completely brainwasher in the positive direction. I want to read you this story from this soccer player, Marcelo. So this guy Marcelo basically told the story about his grandfather. And he goes, they were talking about, like, what does it feel like you're this star player for? I think you play for Real Madrid, like one of the biggest soccer clubs in the world. You're making millions of dollars. You're adored by fans everywhere. Like, you know, how does it feel? He goes, this is the quote. He goes, you have to understand where I come from, brother. He goes, I can see the scene like it's a movie in my head still. I'm eight years old. My family had no money in Brazil. We couldn't even afford gasoline in our car to make it to practice. So my grandfather, I didn't know this, but he made a sacrifice that changed my life. He sold his car just to get, like, you know, in a bad deal, got a little bit of money, but that was enough to take the bus every day. So he takes me to training every day on the public bus, side by side, every day on the crowded 410in the heat, side by side all the way across Rio de Janeiro. And every day, no matter how I played, he tells me, you're the best. You are, Marcelino. One day, you're going to be playing for Brazil. One day I will see you in the stadium. And he goes, I could still see this, that. That talk, like, every day in 4k in my head, I can smell the inside of that bus. He goes, my grandfather gave his whole life for my dream. His friends used to tease him that he was broke. And he would tell his friends, he would take out his pocket, show that it's empty, and say, hey, look at me, man. I don't have a single penny, but I'm the happiest mother effer in the world. He believed in me. We were partners in this endeavor. And he talks about, like, in his village, how there was his grandfather who did this for him, but also the shopkeeper, he couldn't afford a ball, and so he goes to the local shop and he asked him, he's like, hey, can I have a ball? And the guy's like, yeah, sure. Cost as much he goes, I don't have the money, but when I'm a professional player, when I grow up, I'll come back and I'll pay you. He's like, 8 years old, 7 years old at the time. The guy just laughs, and he's like, all right, take a ball.

A (43:37)

You deserve it.

B (43:38)

He's like, make sure you pay me when you. When you become pro. Right? Like, just, you know, it kind of pulls on the heartstrings. And so when he became a pro, he came back and basically, like, bought, like, unlimited balls for every kid in the town, like, forever growing up, and was just like, no kid will have that, you know, that problem now. And so I hear these stories, and it just kind of reminds me of, like, the power that either a father or grandfather can have in the. The kind of shaping of a kid. And actually, like, the best thing you could give them is, like, fundamentally a belief that they're gonna be great and people will rise to your assumption if they don't have a strong assumption about themselves, and kids don't have strong assumptions about themselves yet. And so you can give them a stronger frame that they will. They will live up to.

A (44:20)

Where did your grandpa. We'll have the link to this one, but Sean has this amazing story about his mother coming to America and, like, seeing a plane for the first time. It's like. I think about that story weekly, actually. It's pretty amazing. Where did your grandpa end up? Like, so he made it to America with his family. Did. Did your father come first? And then your grandpa gets my.

B (44:41)

My. My dad. So he gets his son to go in, like, kind of a crazy set of circumstances. You know what IIT is?

A (44:48)

It's like the Indian Institute. It's like the Indian Technical College, right? Or the important university in India. But then, didn't your dad go to Berkeley?

B (44:56)

No. So. So he went to IIT in India, which is basically like. I don't know. It's like Harvard for India. It's even harder to get into. It's because there's like, a billion into the one, like, top. Top brand. He gets in there by happenstance again. When you believe something about yourself, you'll take chances that other people wouldn't. So he doesn't even know what IIT is. He doesn't even know. He's. You're supposed to be taking entrance exams. He sees a guy. His friend is on a scooter. He's like, hey, you want to come play? And the guy's like, no, no, I got to go take this test. And he's like, what test? And he's like, I'm trying to get into Iit. It's the best. And that's how you get. If I get. And he's like, why? Why do you care? It's so far away. Why would you want to go to school there? Go to school here? He said, because if I get in there, I can go to America again. His grandfather told him, you're gonna be in America someday. So he's looking for. He hears that, and he says, so he literally hops on the back of this dude's scooter and goes and takes the test blind. Now, my dad was a pretty good student. Cause again, when you don't have anything else, you don't have tv, you don't have anything. All he had was his books from textbooks from school. So he's a good student. So he ended up getting into it. I think he ranked, like, 39th in all of India. Like, something crazy like that. And so he goes through it. He gets a scholarship to come to study at Boulder University in Colorado. Arrives in the dead of the night.

A (46:04)

Becomes a pothead a week later.

B (46:06)

Yeah, well, could have easily, because he arrives dead at night. He had a scholarship. That's the only way he could go there. And when you come from India, I don't think people realize you're not allowed to bring in, like, assets. Not that my grand. My family had assets, but you could only bring in, like, some crazy small amount of money, like $6 or something like that. So my. My dad had 6 bucks, and he came to America, basically, and had to figure it out. He's like, oh, don't worry. Like, I have housing and tuition paid by the school. But he arrives in December. Like, the admissions office is closed for winter break. So he's literally just outside in the cold, in winter in Colorado. He's like, what do I do again? Never been on a plane before. Everything's new. Some French dude, some student there who's a French guy, another international student who wasn't home for holidays, sees him and he's like, dude, what are you doing? He's like, I'm trying to get into this place.

A (46:49)

Trying to go to school. Yeah.

B (46:51)

So that guy just takes him and he's like, come stay with me. So he just lives with this guy again. Somebody helps him out along the way. Anyways, my dad brings my grandfather over when he gets here.

A (46:59)

How old? It's. Wait, wait, hold on. So your father was like, college, and he. Okay, so he was only 20. 1. And he brought his father over, brings.

B (47:08)

Us over over the next few years. He brings his father over, brings his brother over, but he gets everybody over. Right. That's like the, the goal, the role of that kind of the eldest son is to like.

A (47:17)

So your dad was the.

B (47:19)

Well, yeah, I mean, what he did. Yeah, changed like the direction of kind of his tribe, you know.

A (47:23)

Yeah.

B (47:24)

And so my grandfather comes over and I remember when I was a kid, like we used to go with him to his vending. He had like a vending machine side hustle. We would go collect all the quarters out of like four vending machines that he was like running at the time. Then he opened it and he upgraded. He got like a little snack shop in the, in the, in the office building. And we used to sit at the cashier there doing that all day. Like, he basically just kind of had some hustles. But you know, the other thing I thought was kind of admirable was when he was like in his 70s or 80s, like whenever the computer came out and like, I don't know if you remember, we had like a computer room in our house, like one desktop computer for the whole family. He would come in and he would try to learn how to type. Now like, imagine like a 75 year old, 80 year old guy doing like this, you know, and. But he's not just like trying to use the computer. He's literally just saying, I want to learn how to type, like a skill. I was like, what do you have planned? What are you going to do with all this typing? And he didn't care. He's like, no, this is the new thing. I'm not going to. He basically never gave up on himself. He's like, never too, like too old. Where, you know, like most old people just literally are like, ah, that's too much. That's too complicated. That's for young people. And like, he never had that attitude. It was like, like, if it exists, like, it's for me. Like he worked at Circuit city in the DVD section when he was like 80 years old. And they were like, dude, do you know anything about movies or music? American movies or music? He's like, no. And he's like, he would joke like, they can't fire me though, because I'm so old. Like, it would be discrimination. It's hilarious. They're too afraid to fire me, even though I don't know anything about this job. And like Circuit City had to go bankrupt before they could get rid of him. Like, you know, he was kind of Good stubborn in that way. He would, like, never take medicine. Like. Like, even at the end last month, he broke his femur because he fell. And, like, breaking your femur is, like, the biggest bone in your body. It's a pretty rough break. But, like, even when he was in the hospital, he was, like, immobilized. He would be doing, like, arm exercises because he's like, oh, I'm going to be back. And when I. I got to keep my body active, you know, like, that was always his mentality. So, yeah, a lot of things that I kind of admire that, you know, I'll always remember about him.

A (49:12)

How did you get to D.C. when.

B (49:14)

They came over, it's like, where are we going to live? They lived with us for a while in Colorado. And then when it was like, okay, that's enough living with us now, thank you. It was like, here's D.C. like, where some of the other siblings live so that we got them a house there. They live there.

A (49:28)

I've been thinking about, like, we've been thinking about, like, some logos or not logos, like slogans and stuff for Hampton. And I've been obsessed with this idea of building what outlives you. And so, like, build what outlives you. It's like this phrase that I've been obsessed with, and that doesn't mean business necessarily. It could mean. But what's interesting is that your grandfather so far has been the best example of building what outlives you. And so, like, telling the story about how, like, he gave his father this or his son this attitude, which then. My father gave that to me. You know, you speak in it. My father gave it to me. And I'm like, that's the best example of building something that outlives you was just a positive attitude is what outlived him. And I find that to be very fascinating. And frankly, I find that to be the most admirable thing a man can do is to build what outlives you. And it's legacy, and not legacy in the sense of your name is going to be on the building or whatever. It's just that I live a certain way because this guy lived a certain way, and because this. This guy lived a certain way and because this grandfather lived a certain way, I now treat people wonderfully. And that's the. That's the most beautiful example of building what outlives you. Yeah.

B (50:29)

Do you. Do, you know, like, your family history? Like, I've heard this sometimes where people are like, my great, great grandfather did this, or we were. We were Actually warriors. And therefore, and then people really take that as like, so that's in my blood and it really gives them a lot of belief. I don't even know, like, I didn't know half the shit about my grandfather until the funeral when they were telling the stories about like his upbringing.

A (50:48)

No, frankly, I did not have this. And where I'm from in the Midwest, like, it's just like my people have been here for forever in St. Louis. All my grandparents are dead by the age of three for me. And so I lacked a massive sense of belonging. And so I remember meeting a Jewish guy and like, him, him telling like the traditions of like Judaism and like going to like, like having this Friday night meal. I'm like, oh my God, I crave this tribe. I was like, I crave this so much. Or like, I remember like moving to San Francisco and walking around on the Stanford, the Stanford campus, and I'm like, oh my God, I would love to have this Stanford logo on my LinkedIn or whatever, just so I can meet other people who share these values. Like, I've been desperate my whole life for like a sense of belonging because I never had that as a, as a, as a kid. This is for the folks out there who have a business that does at least $3 million a year in revenue. Because around this point, that's when you're able to look up after being heads down for years building your company, and you realize two things. One, you've done something great, but you're still a long way from your final destination. And two, you look around and you realize, I am all alone. I've outrun my peers. Which means you're now making $10 million decisions alone, by yourself. And that is when mediocrity can creep in. My company, Hampton, we solved this problem by giving you a room of vetted peers of other entrepreneurs who are going to hold you accountable, call you out on your nonsense, and help show you the way. Because the fact is, is that there's only a tiny number of people in your town who know what you're going through and who have been there and they're hard to find. The biggest risk is not failing. You have a company and it's working. You're going to be fine. But the biggest risk is waking up 10 years from now and saying, I barely grew in business and in life. And for people like you who are ambitious, wasted potential and regret is what we want to help you to avoid. We have made so many of these groups and we have a thousand plus members And I know this stuff actually works. It can change your life. It changed mine. And I know it will change yours. So check it out.

B (52:45)

Joinhampton.com Can I tell you, we talked about Brooks earlier. Can I tell you this idea that this, like, very interesting business that I had never heard of, so. Have you ever heard of Little blue books?

A (52:58)

No. What is it?

B (52:59)

Okay, so check out what I have in my hand. You see this? This is a little blue book. It's not blue, by the way, but it is tiny.

A (53:06)

So for the people listening, I googled it and Sean just showed it. It almost looks like you pulled the COVID off of a book.

B (53:12)

Yeah, it's a little paperback. I mean, not even paper. It's just paper, like stapled together.

A (53:17)

Literally.

B (53:18)

There's a staple on the side and it's like a three inch high book. And these were called Little Black books. Little Blue Books. Guess how many copies of Little Blue books sold?

A (53:27)

I have no idea.

B (53:29)

Just take a guess.

A (53:30)

Oh, my God. I just saw the number. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Really?

B (53:36)

Okay, so there. There's been something like low end estimate is 200 million. High end estimate is 500 million copies of these books were sold.

A (53:46)

Did you take your idea from this or did you like your idea and.

B (53:50)

You realized I was telling Craig Clemens about my idea for one hour books. And he was like, do you know about Little blue books? And I was like, no. He's like, oh, dude, you got to check this out.

A (53:58)

Oh, my gosh. And the titles are the best.

B (54:01)

Yeah, so like this one right now, I'm holding, by the way, just for reference, like, you know, Harry Potter sold like something like 600 million copies. So this is like a Harry Potter level phenomenon that existed, you know, a long time ago. So this one, the title is the Gentle art of making enemies.

A (54:16)

Oh, my gosh.

B (54:17)

You're telling me the subtle art of not giving an F. And didn't steal from that. Right? Or it'll just be like this one. Proverbs of Turkey. They're about popular Shakespearean quotes. A rapid calculator. How to make rapid arithmetic calculations in your head. Here's a little book about doing mental math.

A (54:33)

How to dress on a small salary. The psychology of leadership. The puzzle of personality. Man and his ancestors.

B (54:40)

Yes. So they have. They have. They're good at titles. They're good at copywriting the books themselves, by the way. Not actually good. I spent like an afternoon trying to read these because I was like, ooh, I found this hidden pearl of wisdom from the past, personally, didn't really love any of the books.

A (54:55)

But did Craig like this because of the marketing?

B (54:59)

Yeah, he was just like, this was a. I mean this was like a phenomenon. You should study this and just steal something from this thing that happened, you know, such a long time ago. The reason I bring this up is and why this is related to what you talked about. So why did these things succeed? Because I thought, well, maybe they were just incredible, incredibly popular, well written, whatever. No, they're not really right like this today seems like, you know, this could be an Instagram account maybe or you know, something, something so simple. The reason this worked was basically back in the day, before this was like, before there were like public libraries. So books were actually rare. They were not something that the average person could afford or had access to. And so you had an access problem and they were in low supply. And so they came out with these. And these things would cost nothing. They would be like a nickel to buy the book. So you could buy this for 5 cents. You could carry it around in your pocket because it was so small, so it was portable, it was affordable, and it became ubiquitous. They would sell it at like, you know, every newspaper stand, corner store, anywhere. You could put this thing anywhere.

A (55:56)

It's so small, it's basically a podcast episode.

B (55:59)

Exactly. It's like YouTube videos. And so what I found interesting was, man, in a time where that's scarce, this can sell 500 million copies. Because information was scarce back then. It was actually hard to get information. You couldn't go on Google or YouTube, couldn't even get a book from a library, couldn't afford a lot of this information. So where would you get that information about how to dress on a small salary or you know, the quotes from Shakespeare or Proverbs of, of Aristotle. Right.

A (56:25)

I hope that your dad would tell.

B (56:27)

You correct, but like, you know, most people don't. So that became incredibly valuable. Now today, fast forward to today. Information is ubiquitous. It's like running water. You can get it anywhere. You get all the information you'll ever want instantaneously, in whatever style you want. And then sometimes it's even if you go to your feed like Instagram or TikTok, you'll get information you didn't even ask for, but might be interesting to you curated by this sort of all knowing algorithm. Okay, so information is now abundant. So something like this I don't think could ever work today. Now what's scarce today is, became, became the interesting question in my head. Because if information was scarce then, and then there was a need for Little blue books. What's scarce today? And I think it's what you just said. Now this is. I hate even saying the word belonging, but basically, you know, being a part of a tribe I think is incredibly scarce today in America at least, or in the lives that I see around me. Me and my life around me. And I think this is, you know, organized religion did this for a lot of people. I think group exercise classes like CrossFit and Soul Cycle did this job for a lot of people. Now run clubs are incredibly popular. Book clubs are getting more and more popular, which seems really counterintuitive to the trend. I think people need this sort of in person tribe with rituals and a tribe leader and a banner and rituals that you, you attend. I think that is what is scarce today. And I think people are. People crave it and those who properly build that are going to prosper in the future. And I think you're doing it with Hampton, by the way.

A (57:55)

Yeah, I'm trying to do it. I met this guy, he came to my office the other day. Pomp, Anthony Pompliano introduced me to this guy and he was like, you had.

B (58:03)

Did you just drop that? Just like that.

A (58:04)

Is there a day we need to pick up? Because I just dropped. Did I just drop that?

B (58:09)

Your Democratic president.

A (58:13)

The. Anthony was like, you gotta. I call him Anthony, by the way. It's like on all in. Like they were referring to the SEC chairman and they're like, yeah, look, Tim's doing a great job. So my version of that is Anthony.

B (58:27)

Anthony. Yeah.

A (58:28)

So he was like, you gotta meet this guy. I said, well, yeah, whatever. Sure set him in the. Like, if you're in town, come to my office, man. I met him and I was like, what's your deal? He's this Italian guy with a thick Italian accent and he's got this company that's basically making $100 million a year curing loneliness. So it's called. But. But they're doing it in a very unique way. So if you go to we road.com, the business is crazy. So the company. Let me tell you what the product is. The product is basically it's traveling for 20, 30 and 40 year old professionals. And so what they do is if you want to travel, the issue with a lot of young people is like they want to travel alone, but they don't literally want to be alone when they travel. Like they don't want to team up with their friends. They want to go do what they want to do, but with other people who want to do it with them. And so it's basically 80% women, 20% men is like their customer base. And so they have categories. So it's like adventure, it's nature, it's historical. They got a bunch of categories and you pick a trip that you want to go on and then seven to maybe 15 other young people, like you are going to go on that exact same trip and you're going to have a tour guide leading you along each trip.

B (59:28)

So this, for example, I click Patagonia trekking through Argentina and Chile. There's beautiful photos of like this just looks like unbelievable. And then it's a 13 day trip, you pay three grand and you're going to go with a group of eight to 15 people. You know, 12 nights in a hotel or guest house, your breakfasts are included and you get a domestic flight to Buenos Aires. From, from buenos, if you get to Buenos Aires, from there to the like start of the, of the adventure. And it's, and then they have like, day one, here's what we do. Day two, here's what we do all the way to day 13.

A (59:59)

This company, I think it was started in 2020. It's only about five or six years old. This year they're going to do 160 million in revenue. Last year they did 100 million in revenue. And their gross margins, he said I could say all this are 30%.

B (60:11)

I've never heard of this.

A (60:12)

Amazing, right? I've never heard of it either. So on 100 million in revenue, after they pay the hotels and the, the, the person leading the tour guide, they keep 30%. So 160 million in revenue, what's that? That's like 50 million bucks in like net revenue to their company. Absolutely astounding that this company exists. It's one of these ideas that you told me about it and I'm like, yeah, that sounds like a cute little hobby. They've totally crushed it. And I've been, and I was asking him, I'm like, why, why do people like this? He's like, well, because people are lonely and they don't want to be alone. And we're just one example of how you can solve loneliness because you go along this trip with strangers and you're going to come home best friends. And he was like, and in a lot of cases, sometimes people will come home as boyfriend and girlfriend. That happens a lot. And so I thought that this was an absolutely amazing product to solve. Like, it's like there's these macro trends. So you talk about this macro trends of like physical experiences, things like that and loneliness. And then there's like, how do you package that into a solution that you could sell? I'm trying to do it with Hampton in one way. This is a totally other way of doing it. It's crushing me. So that was probably. This is a. This is a very nice way to package. Would be nice if I could have my company do it. 160 million in revenue in five years. But isn't this pretty cool?

B (61:27)

And they do something that looks way more fun and they like hook up. So it's like basically better in every dimension that I care about. Yeah, this is cool. I mean, my parents do this. My mom does this with like seniors do this as well. So her and her siblings, two to three times a year, take these guided tours. It's basically groups of seniors. You know, it's just on and because they're like, we don't have to think, right? They're going to organize all the sightseeing, all the hotels, all the food, all the everything. They keep you safe. They have the insurance, like they do all that stuff. And then you're with a group. So, you know, you can grow with a group or you can kind of make friends inside the group because, you know, traveling when you're young and your friends maybe not all being able to synchronize a trip together or you don't have enough friends, like, that's one thing. The other is, you know, you're empty nesters, you're seniors and like you have way more time and money on your hands. But travel is, you know, still, you know, a little bit difficult and daunting.

A (62:23)

Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Like I did it when I was in college or high school. Maybe like an EF Tour. Is that what it's called? Educational tour? It's like the company is called EF Tours. It's like a multi billion dollar company that they do that for students. Everyone knows that you can do this.

B (62:38)

Are they the ones who have like an incredible on campus marketing like machine where they basically have like kind of affiliates and then they do events, like an mlm basically?

A (62:46)

Yeah, it's like started by like a Swedish guy who's like a recluse, but he like owns the whole business and he does like 5 billion in revenue. It's like one of these things where you like, you don't realize how big it is.

B (62:56)

I was, I was too dumb at the time to like pay attention to what was happening. But now that I look back with like my business lens now that thing was brilliant.

A (63:04)

So EF Tours does 11 billion a year in revenue.

B (63:09)

If I'm, if I'm one of these, like, who's like, the Travel YouTuber that's popular? If I'm the Travel YouTuber that's Popular, I'm, like, the kind of fun, adventure type of YouTuber. I would create something like this. You know, I mean, this is very hard to create, to be clear, but, like, I would steal operators from these companies and be like, you are going to build this. You. But you're going to use my, my brand, my face to, like, spin up. Because these aren't, these don't really have a strong brand, and these are way overdue.

A (63:35)

Interestingly, this. This guy actually has an SF connection. So the guy who started EF Tours, I, I didn't research this in advance, so I'm just kind of looking at wikipedia. He started EF Tours in the 1965. They now have 52, 000 employees, and his last name is Holt. H U L T. The whole international school of business. That's the whole school in sf, which was, I think, down by Fisherman's Wharf. But anyway, crazy way of solving loneliness. So, dude, this was a fun episode. I'm happy we got to, like, catch up. But I'm also, I, I, I think that there's times on this podcast sometimes where, like, maybe you don't want to talk about something personal because you're like. I don't know if people are gonna, like, enjoy this or be, like, if they can get, like, entertainment or education from, like, my little personal story, but I gotta say that I'm actually like, like, incredibly impacted by that story of your grandfather. You know, I have a soft spot in my heart for immigrants, and so I love hearing the story of your mother. I've never heard the story of your father.

B (64:25)

I love immigrants, dude. You love.

A (64:27)

I love immigrants. Like, I, you know, I kind of categorize, like, firstborn in America, you know, son of immigrants as immigrants as well. And in that regard, every one of my friends is an immigrant.

B (64:38)

It's almost racist how much you love immigrants.

A (64:40)

Yeah, but seriously, shut up about it. That was. Dude, I married into an immigrant family.

B (64:51)

By the way, that's one of your, like, phrases that stuck. Like, a lot of people will when they email me, like, for an opportunity to be like, I got that Korean. What is it? Korean restaurant. What is it? Korean corner store owner energy. Or something like that. Like, I got that immigrant mentality.

A (65:03)

Yeah, Like, Korean store owner energy. So, because in New York, you basically there's, like, the corner, like, markets, and they are all owned by Asian families, so it's typically like a Vietnamese family. And I. I like to go and I like to talk to these families, and I literally just, like, ask them what's their story? And then the smaller ones are usually owned by. It's a lot of Indian families, but it's also a lot of, like, Arabic families. And it's very interesting how. And then you go to, like, Dunkin Donuts, and that's always Indian. And so, like, I love going to these, like, or you go to a motel. Always Indian. And I love going. And I, like, just, like, I'm, like, I want to learn, like, what's going on. And so I love, like, like, learning about this stuff. I think it's so fascinating because immigrants have this, like, us versus them mentality, which I've always craved. You know, I always want to be the U.S. turns out, turns out. Turns out I'm the them against them. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, I'm Iceland and the muddy ducks. Like, I'm the bad. Or I like the bad guys.

B (65:59)

Like, you know, like Gunner Stahl over here.

A (66:02)

Yeah, I'm the them. I wanted to be the U.S. i'm the them. That's weird. All right.

B (66:10)

That's a good spot for us.

A (66:12)

All right. That's it. That's the pod.

B (66:13)

I feel like I could rule the world. I know I could be what I want to.

A (66:18)

I put my all in it.

B (66:19)

Like, no days off on a road. Let's travel. Never looking back. Hey, let's take a quick break. I want to tell you about a podcast that you could check out. It is called the Science of Scaling by Mark Roberge. He was the founding CEO of HubSpot, and he's a guest lecturer at Harvard Business School. The guy's smart, and he sits down every week with different sales leaders from cool companies like Klaviyo and Vanta and OpenAI. And he's asking about their strategies, their tactics, and how they're growing their companies. As, you know, head of sales or chief revenue officer, if you're looking to scale a company up. If you're a CRO or a head of sales that's looking to level up in your career, I think a podcast like this could be great for you. Listen to the Science of Scaling wherever you get your podcasts.