Tamsen Fadal (3:09)

And this is back before newspapers were.

Reshma Sajani (3:11)

Online or social media existed. If their local paper had an article that was critical of her, Kathy's husband Bill would literally cut it out of the paper with a pair of scissors before she could look at it. And, I mean, I wish Nahal would do that for me on my phone. Governor Hochul and I packed a whole lot in this conversation. And you're gonna hear about her humble upbringing and how it has shaped her into the kind of leader she. You're gonna hear about why she thinks women and families and children deserve our attention and our investment. But what you're also gonna hear is how she managed to do it all, so to speak, to be a mom, and how she dropped outta the workforce because they couldn't afford childcare. And then she returned again to have a high profile career. It goes back to this incredible partnership that she has with her husband Bill. And, and she reminded me, the governor reminded me, that, you know what, life is long, so don't close any doors. So I'm really honored and excited for you to hear this conversation with Kathy Hochul, the governor of the greatest state in the world, New York. Let's get into it. So there's so much that I wanted to talk with you about today, but I want to start with how we always start, which is we're in midlife.

Tamsen Fadal (4:33)

How do you feel about this time period of your life?

Reshma Sajani (4:36)

Are you like, this is amazing, like.

Tamsen Fadal (4:38)

I finally can say no and do what I want, or are you feeling like, wow, I'm getting older in this kind of.

Governor Kathy Hochul (4:45)

No. I've never felt more at peace with my time in life and my age and everything else. And saying, you know what, this is extraordinary because I went through all the pressures of a young mom and am I sacrificing my career for the kids in the early years? And I left a job I love with Senator Moynihan on Capitol Hill and took a long time to get back because there was no childcare. And that's another Topic that has not grown.

Tamsen Fadal (5:10)

We're talking about that.

Governor Kathy Hochul (5:11)

Right. And then worrying about the kids and you talk about your little one going into kindergarten. I don't have to worry about that anymore. So I'm very much at peace and also able to shift more into my relationship with my husband. We've been married 41 years and so.

Reshma Sajani (5:26)

Love of your life?

Governor Kathy Hochul (5:26)

Love of my life. And it's just been fun because my kids are adults. There's a couple little grandkids. And so I am so loving this point in my life. And career wise, listen, I did not put out a career plan to become a governor or something. I think a lot of guys do when they're young. It's like, well, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do that. And women just are there ready to seize the moment and the opportunities and to work hard toward it. But I feel no stress, no pressure. I say whatever I want to anybody.

Reshma Sajani (5:56)

I've seen it.

Governor Kathy Hochul (5:56)

Yeah, it's gotten a little colorful, but it's like, I feel like I'm just myself.

Tamsen Fadal (6:01)

And it feels so freeing. Do you think that some of that is about getting your time back?

Reshma Sajani (6:07)

Right.

Tamsen Fadal (6:08)

Cause a lot of people listen to our show. They are moms. And I feel that way. I'm like, I just don't. I don't even have time to have a midlife crisis. Cause I got these little kids and.

Governor Kathy Hochul (6:16)

I got mine to work.

Tamsen Fadal (6:16)

So is it about having time back or is there something about getting older that you just realize that, like, I don't need to spend all this time on this making other people happy.

Governor Kathy Hochul (6:28)

Right. And also, I just feel like I have been so fortunate in life. I'm able to look back at the circumstances, the extraordinarily challenging circumstances. My parents used to live in a trailer park when they're first married, in little tiny places they raised their kids in. And we used to get our clothes at used clothing stores and on layaway. You could never come walk out with a new dress because you had to come back week after week and put money down for it. So we struggled in the early years.

Tamsen Fadal (6:56)

And what did your parents do?

Reshma Sajani (6:58)

What'd your mom do?

Governor Kathy Hochul (6:59)

My mom was taking care of us. Once we came along, there was six of us.

Tamsen Fadal (7:04)

All six of you living in a trailer park?

Governor Kathy Hochul (7:06)

No, no. My brother lived there. They moved out of the trailer park after, I think there's only. It was the tiniest trailer. I mean, not what you see, these wide body. This is like literally something you look like you'd go camping in almost it was small, and my brother was born there. I think they joked about having him sleep in one of the kitchen drawers or something. So I came along a year later because we're Irish Catholics. It was a baby almost every year for a long time. And then they had a little tiny apartment in the same area. The Bethlehem Steel plant. The steel plant where my dad worked by day and my grandpa worked there and my uncles worked there. It's just where everybody worked. His father were poor immigrants from Ireland. And people wouldn't hire the Irish at the time. There used to be Irish Need Not Supply signs. And so they were so happy just to get a job at the steel plant. And my dad as well. And so I look back on the early years and again, it changed when my dad got a college degree and was able to go to a different job. And certainly he's a risk taker and had my mom at his side. But I also want to just give them credit for it. It wasn't just lifting us out of those circumstances, but they always made us very conscious of other people's needs.

Tamsen Fadal (8:16)

Can you give an example of how you remember that when you were.

Governor Kathy Hochul (8:19)

Yeah, absolutely. And my mom, again, every time, my whole child. I remember my mom pregnant with another sibling coming along. And she still devoted her time to other people. Like, they helped start a summer camp for the children of migrant farm workers in our area. And she found volunteers, and she'd go to the local florist and try to get little scraps from their cuttings from the artificial flowers. So we could do crafts with the kids and find someone who could teach music. It was a tiny little thing in the basement of a church. But she made me the kindergarten teacher when I was in sixth grade. Cause I was so used to dealing with little kids. And so she was just trying to put this together so these kids had healthy activity when their parents were either on the farms or working in the steel plant. And so I just knew that no matter how much my mom had to suffer for us, she never talked about that. Because what she taught us is always people who have less than us. And we'd go into the city and to help them and bring kids. We had a big family. There was always some stranger, some kid she had found and brought them back. Or we, you know, there's a. An institution, literally at the time of people with mental health challenges and teenagers. And, you know, we bring them to our house on weekends and just, you know, hang out and become friends. And so we'd exchange students from around the world.

Reshma Sajani (9:41)

That's incredible.

Governor Kathy Hochul (9:42)

We. We were all doubling up in our little.

Reshma Sajani (9:44)

Even though there wasn't room for all of these.

Governor Kathy Hochul (9:47)

I lived in the attic with two brothers. I mean, I literally. And there was no heat or air conditioning in the attic in Buffalo. We had lots of blankets on our bed.

Reshma Sajani (9:54)

My sister went to med school in Buffalo, so that's cold.

Governor Kathy Hochul (9:56)

It was cold. Cold. But I'm not looking for sympathy because people are struggling now. But I think that builds the character and the fortitude and the gratitude that I look back and say, you know what? I didn't continue my entire life like that. And some people do. There's still some people in the trailer park area and their next generation who still live there. And I go back to that neighborhood all the time, and I go back to a diner there and sit there with my husband, and people are so shocked to see the governor here.

Reshma Sajani (10:22)

How does it feel like, how does.

Tamsen Fadal (10:24)

That feel like, to grow up that way? I mean, for me, I was like.

Reshma Sajani (10:28)

The daughter of refugees.

Tamsen Fadal (10:28)

And I often think about, like, I am not supposed to be sitting here talking to the governor of New York.

Reshma Sajani (10:34)

Right.

Tamsen Fadal (10:35)

There were so many things, obstacles that were laid out to. To not have you be sitting, like. So how does that feel? And what's like one piece of advice or something that you did that you think is why you're here? Do you see what I'm saying? For other people that are listening right now that are feeling like, I can't.

Governor Kathy Hochul (10:53)

Do that, you know what it felt like? And I just did this a couple weeks ago because I never forget where I came from. There's a kind of pervasive humility that underscores everything I do. Because when I grew up in Buffalo, near the steel plant, the granddaughter of immigrants, there's a little stigma associated with that. Even when I come to New York City. Oh, the upstater from Buffalo, who doesn't understand this, but I truly do. I live in the city. I've been here for a long time. But when I go back to that little diner and there's people that life has been hard to. And the poverty is evident and the health outcomes are not good. There's a lot of obesity and challenges. And so just in this one particular little diner, I love it there. Me just sitting there, you know, eating what they're eating, chatting with everybody at the tables and letting them take selfies. And it normalizes me to them, but it also reminds me I am still normal, too.

Reshma Sajani (11:48)

That's right.

Governor Kathy Hochul (11:49)

And it takes me out of this level of, oh, I'M the governor of New York, and I would say I'm still Kathy Courtney, who grew up in this community and never forgot it because they gave me the resiliency and the fortitude to do what I do to meet the challenges as governor. Yeah. So the other part of your question was one bit of advice is I think it's just be grateful for what you have. No matter how much we're so disturbed by what we see going on in Washington now. And I have to deal with the fallout every single day from cuts in healthcare and nutrition programs and science and research that was done, and even having to get my Covid shot yesterday. My arm still hurts. So I could remove. No, it doesn't hurt that much. Everybody should get their Covid shot. Go get your Covid shot. But just to remind everybody, like, I had to take steps affirmatively to undo what Washington had done so I could get Covid shots for people in my state. So I'm always aware of that. But I don't want people to lose the sight of that. This is still a place of great freedom and opportunity because I'm always focused on making sure the next generation has that same shot at education and those letters to opportunity.

Tamsen Fadal (13:03)

That if I think that's what's driving a lot of this sense of, like, young, especially this generation, when they look at. When you look at the jobs numbers.

Reshma Sajani (13:10)

And you look at what's happening with.

Tamsen Fadal (13:11)

AI, which we'll talk about in. And that opportunity is like, the first time you feel like I am actually not gonna do better than my parents did.

Unknown Female Host (Podcast Promo) (13:19)

Right.

Tamsen Fadal (13:19)

And I think that's the feeling that is creating so much, I think, anxiety and fear and stress in this Dutch. I wanna ask you something, though. I got to interview Jacinda Arden, you know, who was prime minister of New Zealand.

Reshma Sajani (13:31)

And one of the things.

Tamsen Fadal (13:33)

Similarly, she was kind of not supposed to be the prime minister and, you know, the guy that was supposed to, like, her life changed in the course of a matter of days. Same thing for you. You're a lieutenant governor, and you find yourself right in one of the most powerful seats, quite frankly, in the world. Take me back to, like, that time period and that moment and how you felt.

Governor Kathy Hochul (13:58)

Were you afraid?

Unknown Female Host (Podcast Promo) (13:59)

Were you excited?

Reshma Sajani (14:00)

How did you feel?

Governor Kathy Hochul (14:01)

No, I was excited for the opportunity to continue serving in a new role because I've been a public servant through and through for most of my adult life. I started out working for other people as I ended up being counseled as Senator Moynihan, a sen. And never was going to Run for office. And this is a lesson. I want every person of every age and moms that's model this for their daughters. There was an era when women did not really run for office. It was so unusual. And I didn't have the guts to run for office even though I had my resume was off the charts and there was an opening for a local town board position in my hometown.

Reshma Sajani (14:37)

How old were you then?

Governor Kathy Hochul (14:39)

About 35. And I had helped start up some tech startups in House Counsel. I had, you know, worked on all these jobs on Capitol Hill. I was a writer, a speechwriter for people. I'd volunteered for campaigns since I was 15 years old helping the elect Democrats. But I still did not have the confidence in myself to say when there was an opening in this hometown community where I'd gone to all the town board meetings. I was fighting everybody and challenging a zoning here and got to stop Walmart here. I want a new playground here. I was this mom that was fighting everybody to make my community better. I, I didn't have the confidence until I saw that there was a 22 year old young man who just graduated from college, still living at home, had nowhere near the resume I had and he put his hat ring to run for that position. Now finally, that was my aha moment that this lack of confidence in myself and many women suffer from this was what was holding me back. Not my resume, not my ability to be an extraordinary public servant because it's something I believed in my whole life, how important public service is to, to lift people out of their circumstance, help people. And I ran and there actually ended up being two seats open. We both won and that was 31 years ago. So I've been an elected official on that local level. But I want to point out to that young man again, I thought it was very arrogant of him to think he had something. He was the one that was right. I'd rather see more 22 year old young women have that. And he ended up becoming a leader of one of the most, the largest, one of the largest healthcare institutions in western New York. So his confidence in himself was well placed. Mine was non existent until I started going up the wrong the ladder realizing like I'm the one holding me back, there's nobody else. And I want women to realize that. It is in your head a lot of this.

Reshma Sajani (16:30)

Yeah.

Governor Kathy Hochul (16:31)

This sense that I'm not good enough or I have to get more on my resume or I have to do more. No you don't. No you don't just go in and do it. That's the risk taking part of me that I, that I think has gotten me to where I am. To answer your question, it's that willingness to just go out there against all the odds. I mean, I thought I was gonna lose. I ran for a seat in Congress. The most Republican district in the state of New York is a Democrat. I was known in one county, not the whole seven. I had no chance of winning. And I gutted it out. Cause I kept pounding on the need to keep Medicare for our seniors. I won that. And if I had not gone against everybody, all the local political people who are my friends, who says, don't do it, you'll ruin your reputation because you're gonna lose. And I was like, no, I'm gonna do this.

Reshma Sajani (17:15)

But Governor, how do you know?

Tamsen Fadal (17:17)

Because I've been in those places, right, where I feel it in my heart, I wanna do something. But everybody is like, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it.

Governor Kathy Hochul (17:25)

How do you know I'm willing to take a risk and find out? I don't know. But I know one thing. I'll never get that position or that opportunity if I don't at least fight for it and try for it.

Reshma Sajani (17:38)

So it's like this sense of like.

Tamsen Fadal (17:39)

I'd rather fail and I'd rather try and fail.

Reshma Sajani (17:42)

Right.

Tamsen Fadal (17:42)

And I'd rather listen to my gut.

Governor Kathy Hochul (17:44)

Yes. Because they'll always see people and people want to protect you. Like, my family believed I could do this, but other advisors, they want to protect you. They want to protect me from the pain of losing an election. Well, guess what? I lost an election. I'm still sitting here. Right? I'm doing just fine. It's probably a good thing I lost that seat in Congress. The next year after redistricting, they made it even more Republican. But I took a vote that I'll never many votes to save Obamacare. And I'm proud of that.

Reshma Sajani (18:28)

Today's episode is supported by what Should I Do with My Money? An original podcast from Morgan Stanley. This podcast pairs real people with experienced financial advisors. You'll hear candid conversations from people just like you, with questions just like yours.

Tamsen Fadal (18:42)

Questions like, can I retire early?

Reshma Sajani (18:44)

Like really early. How do I leave a financial legacy for my special needs child? Menopause is making me feel wacky and it's shifting how I think about money. Help. These conversations can get emotional, but they're always practical. I checked out the episode about money, motherhood and menopause on what should I do with my money? And I loved hearing from other women who are also committed to setting their kids up for success and hearing how menopause plays into work and money and just everything. It's so on brand with what we talk about every week on the show. Search for what Should I Do with My Money in your podcast player. We'll also include a link in the show Notes. Thank you to what Should I Do with My Money And Morgan Stanley for their support. Cooler days call for layers that last and Quince is my go to for quality essentials that feel cozy, look refined.

Unknown Female Host (Podcast Promo) (19:35)

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Tamsen Fadal (23:06)

A lot of people probably listening. Like I said, I've said this to.

Reshma Sajani (23:08)

Myself as I've ever considered public service.

Tamsen Fadal (23:10)

But I'm like, but I have young kids and one of the things I often see women talk themselves out of is they have this caregiving responsibility and they feel like they can't do it all. I hate the question like how do.

Unknown Female Host (Podcast Promo) (23:24)

You do it all?

Tamsen Fadal (23:24)

But there is some truth that we have to kind of share how we do do it. So how. What would you say to people who wanna take themselves out of the running because they are have young kids or caring for an elderly parent? And then how do you do it? Cause you are a mom and a grandma, right? Like how do you do it? And I think and your kids really admire and respect you and don't feel like they missed out.

Governor Kathy Hochul (23:48)

Well, I get a little bit of mom guilt.

Reshma Sajani (23:49)

Yeah.

Governor Kathy Hochul (23:50)

But that's cause they, you know around.

Tamsen Fadal (23:52)

Christmas time when they're like, hey, yeah.

Governor Kathy Hochul (23:54)

I'll tell you, that's an excellent question. Because as I have gone around the state trying to recruit women to run for office even at the local level, there's basically a farm team. Start out local and then go to state. So I believe in getting more women interested. I remember telling one woman she was a local business person up in the north country and her local county chairman said, I think she'd be a great candidate to run for a county legislature. She'd be great. Everybody knows her. She's got this little shop, she's great. She's got little kids in the school district. And she said to me, I said, she says, well I have like a five year old and a seven year old. And I said, what are you worried about? And she says, well, you know that I don't, I don't know. And I said, my kids were 4 and 5 when I ran, I dragged them knocking on doors, had to stop on strangers doors and say, my little girl has to go to the bathroom. Can you use your bathroom? I remember them having complete meltdowns at public events. Like one time there was a pig roast at a local church and there was this, she had just seen the book story about Babe, the movie about Babe, like a pig, she loved pigs. And she sees this giant blackened pig spinning around and around and she throws herself on the ground, has this world class meltdown. Is that a pig? I can't believe it's a mommy, they killed the pig. And everybody's watching me and I'm thinking, okay, they're thinking, how am I going to trust her to run a budget and run a government she can't handle her own daughter, right? So you'll think of these funny things. But I will tell you this, my job, and I say this to moms, your job is not to raise kids, it's to raise adults. And my children are, I'm so proud of them for their social consciousness that they saw the fights that I've been in and who I stood up for and they've embraced that and they know that I am fearless. And in fact they call me no fear mommy because I'll do anything, I'll jump off a cliff. Because I want my kids, both son and daughter, to be fearless in life. And even my son, I think I raised an incredible feminist because he's got a little 3 year old daughter now and he pushes her and she pushes her to go on the highest, the biggest slide and the hardest little thing at the gymnasium, at the gym and pushes her and pushes her and when she falls down, he doesn't go pick her up and say, poor thing, he's like, come on, get up and do it again. So he's done to her what I wanted done because. And my daughter has a little infant now. And I'm so proud of them. So the point is, life is very long. And so this point in your life, number one, you can miss that opportunity when they're young and get back to it later. I mean, I don't want people to say, I have to run now or my life is over. I ran for Congress when I was 53, so I'd had lower level elected jobs. But Nancy Pelosi, I think, was in her 50s when she first ran. So I want people to have this long, long look at life. But don't say it's harmful to your kid. But I will say I have to put on this qualifier. I had a support system. I had a husband. When he walked in the door, I would make sure I was there after school and he'd walk in the door at dinner time and take the kids off to practices or he coached them. And I could go out and do my political stuff. People who don't have a support system or a mother or sister or a caregiver, it's harder. So I really wanted to let people know that I had that kind of support. I still had that kind of support. My first grandbaby was born two months before my primary for governor. So clearly I was not going down to see this new baby. And so my husband basically became Grandma and grandpa and spent a lot of time. In fact, I was jealous because this baby was bonding with him and not with me, but I had to stay and run my race.

Tamsen Fadal (27:32)

Like he was your standard. Do you have those conversations with him or he just does it or is like, what's the implicit understanding between the two of you?

Governor Kathy Hochul (27:42)

He may be one of a kind. So I don't wanna say you can get all your husbands.

Reshma Sajani (27:45)

Listen, we all can aspire, right?

Governor Kathy Hochul (27:46)

Yeah. No, he just accepted it. He loved being with our children. So he signed up to coach the kids for everything and offered to take them here and there. So there was never a controversy around that. I think he was willing to support me. He knew that I was there supporting him. And so I think underlying is he has enormous pride in me and he protects me. I remember when I was on just local government, we get our little local newspaper, the Hamburg Sun. Now, the editor's husband was the head of the Republican Party, So I never got a fair shot. Never got a fair shot. And they'd print bad things about me. And sometimes I'd come back and I'd see that there was an article that was literally cut out with a pair of scissors. Okay. Before all the news is consumed on social media he would cut it out. So I'd say, honey, what happened? There he goes, no, you don't need to read that. Like someone critical of me. And he still protects me today. He's like, you don't wanna see the comments today, maybe you don't wanna read the news today. So he's always. It's that depth of love that we have for each other that's beautiful. He protects me and allows me to just burst out of that because he's, you know, he's my support system. But I know that's a rarity in life and I don't take it for granted one second it is, but I.

Tamsen Fadal (28:55)

Think it's something that like, I think, you know, if you have big dreams, I think looking for a partner who's willing. Like I am married to someone very similar. Nahal's very similar. He's so proud of me and it's like he's my biggest champion and my biggest advocate and he too loves being a dad. Like today, you know, middle school tours.

Reshma Sajani (29:11)

Are up, you know what I mean?

Tamsen Fadal (29:12)

And he's got his like five computers like handling it. And so I think that, that, I think that's why I think so much about the culture in our country that's disencouraging men to do caregiving work. Cause they're saying it's not masculine is damaging.

Reshma Sajani (29:29)

Right?

Tamsen Fadal (29:29)

Because there's a lot of men out.

Reshma Sajani (29:31)

There who want to do that.

Governor Kathy Hochul (29:32)

Yeah, it's so damaging. And also, you know, I started a policy so everyone is part of the chamber, which is the executive offices, the non union individuals who I have more say over. I started a four month paid leave policy for the birth of a child or adoption. And I'm having like, where'd that guy go? Because he's on his four month leave. So I'm so happy. It's like the men and women are taking it equally. And I know my son who's spent four months on leave with a new baby, he'll never lose that bond when he has like having dealt with the late night feedings and the burpings and the diaper changes and running out and trying to manage this. And so I think it just makes you a better person. Totally. It wasn't available to my dad. My dad was there to just from the early years just work at the steel plant and come home exhausted and do what he could. And he was very loving. But we knew it was hard and I got very little time alone with my dad. But he did say something to Me that I also give credit for. My mom was always encouraging me, but my dad surprised me when I went to look at colleges. I really wanted dad to go on college tours with me so I could spend some time alone with him. So we drove across the state, went.

Reshma Sajani (30:45)

To some colleges, just you and him.

Governor Kathy Hochul (30:47)

It might have been one of the few times we were alone because there were just always so many kids around. And he always had to go there, sporting events and everything. And we went and looked at two colleges, and one was a small college, and the second one was Syracuse University. And I said, dad, what do you think of the two? He goes, well, the first one is more of a place you go, maybe. I don't know, like, they're talking about creative arts. And you could take ballet and you could take all these. That was not who I was at the time. And he says, the second, you know, that one might be where you go learning more of, like the wife of a congressman, but you would go to Syracuse, probably be a congressman. And I was like, that stunned me because I never thought my father was thinking of me at age 17 as.

Tamsen Fadal (31:33)

A congressperson, because he knew your potential.

Governor Kathy Hochul (31:37)

This is why I'd say, parents, be aware of what you say to your kids, because they're listening. And at age 53, then I get elected. He's on the stage seeing his daughter get elected Congress. My mom was there, too. She passed not long afterward. And I told that story before a huge. An international audience. We had everybody from around the world there because I was not supposed to win this race. And I said, don't underestimate the power of your words in front of your children. When you convey a belief in their potential, they internalize that. And that, to me, is something that I've always appreciated that my dad saw something amazing.

Tamsen Fadal (32:13)

What do you say when you share that story?

Governor Kathy Hochul (32:15)

Or it was just all tears. I mean, he was great backer of mine. In fact, I went to Israel right after October 7th, and I wanted to be there to comfort people and tell them I represent a large Jewish community and there's. We understand the pain. And I. I wasn't sure I should call my dad late at night and tell him I was getting on a plane at JFK 11:30 and getting basically in a war zone. We didn't know what to expect. I was going to the border with Gaza at the time, and I said, dad, I decided to call you. I wasn't going to, but I wanted to know. I'm heading into. I'm heading over to Israel and He says two things. Dolly, I'm really proud of you. I'm really proud of you for doing that. But keep your goddamn head down. And so that was, like, his kind of crusty Irish side of him. But he had that pride that I would do something. That I was the first elected official after the president to go into that area was still very dangerous. But I felt this strong need to be there, and I'm glad I went. And then he passed away during the night as I was traveling over to Israel. Had been perfectly healthy. His doctor said that day he'd live a long time. And he had a brain hemorrhage. And so I'm so glad I made that call to him. And that's another lesson. Like, if you're hesitating about anything, you just. Life went like that. Yeah. And I'm sure you're so proud of you. I was fortunate to have the influence of two great people on my life who instilled in me that outward thinking. We owe something to others. That's the whole way I view public life and public service. If I can make someone's life better. I talk to people on the street all the time, and they go shake hands with people working in the kitchens at the hotels. And whenever I go anywhere, I just want to say hi to people. It's a big deal to them, but in my mind, it shouldn't be, but it is. So if I can make someone feel good about getting a patient, what a.

Tamsen Fadal (34:13)

Beautiful lesson your father just taught us. It's like whispering people's potential in their ear.

Reshma Sajani (34:18)

You never know. Right.

Tamsen Fadal (34:19)

What can ignite their future. And it's just, I think having someone believe that you can do that and.

Governor Kathy Hochul (34:28)

Then internalize it yourself. And if you don't have a father like that, and I suppose most people don't give it to yourself. I literally tell people, you can walk in a room and exude confidence, and if you don't have it there, fake it till you make it. Just get the. Look. Look around the room. Like, I got this. I've got this. And I have to talk myself into so many events, even to this day, that events that outwardly seem intimidating. Like, oh, there's a room. People are not sure how they're gonna react. It's like, I just walk in that room. You walk in like you own it.

Reshma Sajani (35:00)

Yep.

Governor Kathy Hochul (35:00)

And I think people react to that, and everybody has the ability to do that. That is not something you don't have to be governor.

Unknown Female Host (Podcast Promo) (35:06)

I love it.

Governor Kathy Hochul (35:06)

I mean.

Tamsen Fadal (35:06)

And I also don't think you have to be a man to that. I think we love swag, as I say, right? Whether it's in men or whether it's in women. I think we want people who can exude confidence, especially at this moment where I think there is a lot of fear and uncertainty about the world and what's going on.

Governor Kathy Hochul (35:22)

I relish the role of being the adult in the room when things are chaotic. I've been through a lot and I always say to a lot of people, people are anxious about the mayor's race or the mayor's city hall last year and what's gonna happen with Washington. The president is gonna send in the national. I said, listen, I've got this, I've got this. We're gonna be okay. Because I think women, especially those who've raised kids, have had to be that. I have the hurricane so many times that when things are swirling around all crazy and people like, we're gonna be okay. Yeah, we've got this.

Reshma Sajani (36:11)

I don't know about you, but I've.

Unknown Female Host (Podcast Promo) (36:12)

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Reshma Sajani (37:00)

To look out for with kids with.

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Reshma Sajani (37:18)

If you're curious about adhd, make sure.

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Reshma Sajani (39:00)

Sometimes I wish I had a personal sommelier to guide me to find the best wines I normally wouldn't be able to access. I get so overwhelmed at the store.

Unknown Female Host (Podcast Promo) (39:09)

Trying to pick the right wine when.

Reshma Sajani (39:11)

So many feel like a complete wrong.

Unknown Female Host (Podcast Promo) (39:13)

Fit to my palate.

Reshma Sajani (39:15)

Nothing beats a quality wine.

Unknown Female Host (Podcast Promo) (39:16)

But where do I find them?

Tamsen Fadal (39:18)

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Reshma Sajani (39:22)

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Reshma Sajani (39:46)

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Tamsen Fadal (39:58)

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Reshma Sajani (40:04)

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Tamsen Fadal (40:09)

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Steve Burns (40:22)

Hey, it's me, Steve Burns. And I'm so glad you're here because you and I go way back, right? Yeah. And look at us now, like we're all grown up. We've got this new podcast where we talk about all this grown up stuff and there's special guests like Jamie Lee Curtis and Bill Nye, but for the most part, it's about you. I mean, it's always been about you. From Lemonada Media Alive with Steve Burns is coming September 17th. Wherever you get your podcasts or you can watch every episode on YouTube.

Tamsen Fadal (41:03)

You know, a big thing you talk about is affordability, right?

Reshma Sajani (41:07)

Huge concern.

Tamsen Fadal (41:08)

You know, I think for families across the country, and I think one of the biggest concerns for families who have children is the cost of childcare. Tell me more. I mean, and you've been such a leader on this issue. I know how important it is to you talk. And you experienced this, right? Like you had to take step back in your career.

Governor Kathy Hochul (41:32)

And they have childcare.

Tamsen Fadal (41:32)

Yeah, because of childcare. Talk about talk shows out of it.

Governor Kathy Hochul (41:35)

That had a profound impact. I loved my job working on Capitol Hill. And when my son came along, my daughter, two years, year and a half later, I was trying to find childcare in Washington. This is a long time ago. There were not daycare centers on every corner and not a lot of people were doing it. And so I couldn't find care that we could afford. My husband worked for the government and I had not worked in a while, so we didn't have a lot of money reserved. We were spending our money going out to the big box stores to get oversized diapers and formula. And I remember thinking, we're gonna feel so rich when we finally get our kids out of diapers and formula. And it's funny, I was like, oh my gosh, we have all this extra money, like extra $20 a week. So we didn't go out anywhere. I think there was a place that had kids under the age of five could eat for free. We went there as often as we could. So I know that struggle, but seeing my own kids go through it now, it hasn't changed much. And the interviewing people and trying to find the right place because this is your child you're entrusting to someone else, whether they come into your home or whether you go to a center or place. And so the cost is two things, availability and affordability. First of all, we need more facilities built, and a lot of them shut down during the pandemic.

Tamsen Fadal (42:53)

That's right. 50% of Americans live in a chakra desert.

Governor Kathy Hochul (42:56)

And they never reopened after the pandemic. And so, which is shocking because we wanted people to go back to work and the childcare center that they had used before was gone. I also changed the policies because when I first became governor, if you earned $57,000 as a family of four or less, you could get generous subsidies from the state. I said, okay, 57,000. I raised it up to 85,000. So just increasing, I think I'd add another four or 500,000 more children that are elig for childcare in our state. And so those are some of the things that we've done already, as well as putting money toward building of new facilities. And I also think it's the responsibility of businesses.

Tamsen Fadal (43:40)

Absolutely.

Governor Kathy Hochul (43:41)

You know, I look at the, you know, for example, technology, which is something so important to us here in the city, and you walk into the job sites like it's all bros, right? It's like, I want to see more women and more diversity. And so when we recruit companies, the ones that get substantial benefits from the state, like a micron upstate, they're creating 50,000 new jobs, you know, building semiconductors, manufacturing semiconductor, which is extraordinary. That was a big win for our state. $100 billion of investment. I told them I want to make sure everything is sustainable, clean energy. I also say we want to foster our policies of more childcare. I'd like you to build an on site child care facility. Guess what's under construction right now. They're doing it. So if employers see the light and know that if you provide assistance to the men and women who work for you, men or women, they're gonna stay with you longer. I mean, the cost of retraining new employees, if you don't take care of them, they're gonna walk out the door and take all that knowledge out of.

Tamsen Fadal (44:45)

I mean, the amount of parents that leave in New York City, New York state, even like if they have children under the age of three is to me, there's more of them than the billionaires that we're concerned about. And I think though we've built at Moms first, the Large Business Coalition on Childcare, and we hear this from business leaders all the time. Like, the number one thing, especially for this generation that are coming in and saying is like, I want to build my family, like, I need your help in childcare. Like, whether it's helping with subsidies or advocating for, you know what I mean, federal or state policy towards affordability, but there's something. I mean, I'm excited because this is the work that I do, but, like, there's something happening in this moment. And it's interesting. Governor, it's not just for families that are talking about the cost of childcare. It's young people who might want to be parents that are saying, as I think about this, like, this is the impediment. So I think we're at this very exciting, but I know, tough moment because of the cuts that are coming from Washington.

Governor Kathy Hochul (45:45)

You know, I started seeing more business leaders. I was at the Westchester business meeting a couple years ago, and I walked. We were supposed to talk about childcare. It was all mostly older men, CEOs, but I realized they wanted to solve this because they're starting to see their daughters struggle. I thought that was really enlightening. You never paid attention before, but now you know that your little grandchild is. Your daughter wants to get back to her job, and she can, so. Or they want the daughter to take over the family business someday, and she's not able to. So they all wanted to find a way to solve this. And I said, it can be solved from the business community. If it's a small downtown block and there's a consortium of all the businesses on the block and they pool together a center right there, or if you're a large enough facility to put another floor that has childcare, there's dozens of ways we can do it. There's actually some zoning restrictions in the city that prohibit it, that it all has to be on the first floor, which is the most expensive real estate. Why is that? Because these kids, many of them are coming from, you know, high rise buildings where they live. And so why is there some urgency that they have to be on the first floor? There has to be a park within a couple blocks. You can create a park. I mean, the playground equipment you can buy. And so these. I think there's barriers that need to be broken down in the city as well. Yep. To allow the reuse of underutilized commercial space, because you do that somewhere in Midtown. We're trying to bring some. Some of the most. The buildings are back, but not all of them. I think that's a game changer. But the enlightenment of the CEOs and the leaders of companies is radically different. It's always been viewed as. Well, you're the one who decided to have a family. You figure it out. Whereas now it is society's problem and also our business.

Reshma Sajani (47:31)

Yeah, we're suffering.

Tamsen Fadal (47:32)

We can't find Enough workers. I mean, it's so true. In the five years that we've built our business coalition. I mean, I remember the first year I could barely get seven, and now it's like over 200.

Reshma Sajani (47:41)

And we're building local chapters.

Tamsen Fadal (47:43)

So it's like, it's really exciting, I think, to see that. Because if you look at every state that's had universal childcare, whether it's Vermont or New Mexico, it happened when the business community finally said, great, we're on board.

Governor Kathy Hochul (47:56)

Yes. And I think we are right there in New York. And I'm so grateful for you for driving that message, that force. And I think we need to get this done sooner than later because we lose our younger families who want to be here. They desperately want to be here, but they can't afford the childcare and the availability of that first home or that apartment. It's hard. I live in an apartment over in Murray Hill. I wanted to be walking distance to my office. And there's a young couple that I got to know, and they said, we're really sorry to leave. We're heading out to the suburbs, but we need a little more space. We couldn't find anything we could afford. It's like I just come back, come back. He said, we'll be back someday. But, you know, it's. I don't think people want to do that or they want to have the option. And because we've not had the ambition to build enough housing or to break down all these inane rules that are stopping it. And there's an initiative on the ballot this fall in the city that's going to allow for more building to happen. I think it's critically important. I gave a billion dollars from the state to the city of yes. To find more ways to incentivize the building of more housing, but, you know, all levels. And that's. I you mentioned about this generation. It doesn't feel like they're going to do as well as their parents. That makes you really sad because that has always been the definition of the American dream, is that you can, you know, do a little bit better than even your parents or grandparents, especially immigrant families. And that's always been what people were striving for. And I don't want people to feel that that's not in reach for them because they've done nothing wrong. And to think that the largest category of unemployed individuals now is right now is going to be people with a college degree graduating, it's so sad. We have to fix that now. We cannot have them give up hope.

Tamsen Fadal (49:48)

And this kind of goes to the last part I want to talk to you about is like, you know.

Reshma Sajani (49:54)

I.

Tamsen Fadal (49:54)

Always tell in this age of AI, right? And there's so much rapid change in.

Unknown Female Host (Podcast Promo) (49:58)

Jobs and the constriction of the job.

Tamsen Fadal (50:00)

Market, which we're anticipating because of the advent of, of AI, we really have to think about the impact on young people. Because if you look at any country that has social unrest, it's because they got a lot of unemployed young people.

Reshma Sajani (50:13)

Right.

Tamsen Fadal (50:14)

It's like the number one sign. And I feel like we're in many ways kind of moving in that direction. Like, what can we do?

Governor Kathy Hochul (50:22)

Well, for a long time we were, you know, girls who code.

Reshma Sajani (50:26)

Yeah.

Governor Kathy Hochul (50:26)

You know, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. And now coding is almost becoming obsolete. Right. So how we do something, we're doing something quite extraordinary here in New York. We have something called Empire AI, and that is using AI for public good. I was just up at our center up at the University of Buffalo, almost $500 million we've invested, and we're building the largest, most powerful supercomputer in the entire country in New York, outside of a private company. I don't want to. But we're the only state that has done this. And we're harnessing the power of this to solve society's problems. So we have researchers there working on new therapies for diseases, for example, something that would have taken months and months and months of analysis, they can do in hours. So we're making great medical progress also just trying to figure out, like, how we can solve the housing problem or how to predict weather better. So I can never have a situation where an entire little campground is flooded out and you lose babies and children. So I get excited about this and I think if we can get the young people excited about solving problems of society, you know, if you can not have to worry so much about the big paycheck in your early years, develop these skills and these networks and figure out how you can learn the skills here and be part of that story. But also we're leaning into advanced manufacturing, as I mentioned, semiconductor manufacturer photonics. I just announced $300 million out at Stony Brook for quantum computing centers. So we can be leading the nation in that kind of work. I want people to know we're going to be investing in this. And the result I need to see is the spin off jobs, the spin off companies from this investment. And that's what I want these young people to find jobs.

Reshma Sajani (52:15)

I love that you're talking about the Whole big gamma.

Tamsen Fadal (52:16)

Because you've also been. And one of the things that I think it's important that you've been talking about to pay attention to is really.

Reshma Sajani (52:24)

What I've been calling the disconnection between young people.

Tamsen Fadal (52:27)

It's like men and women, they're not friends anymore. They don't break bread, they don't date, they don't go. There's so much mistrust and suspicion, not just amongst gender, but race, religion, class, et cetera. And part of it's cause we're on these things all the time, you know what I mean? Like, we just, we don't even have these kinds of interactions. And so I just keep thinking about your mother, right. And having those kids in her school, right. And how much human connection and empathy was created there probably in like, you know, in cultures that were so different and maybe even religions that were so different. And so how do we do that? And I love what you've been doing too about like, you know, safeguarding from AI chatbots. I mean, almost 72% of young people, like their first date is with a chatbot.

Governor Kathy Hochul (53:16)

I know, I know, that's so true. But here's what we're doing in New York, and this is something that has been wildly successful. And that's not me saying that. That is an article that just dropped in the New York Post. I don't usually get a lot of accolades and it wasn't a big Kathy Hochul thing, but it talked about our cell phone ban and how teachers and students are saying, you know what, I'm making friends. Or a teacher says, the class is finally engaged, I'm getting through them. I have 3 million school age children in New York. And what I'm doing by saying no cel from bell to bell the entire day, my students, our students are going to be smarter, more educated, more well adjusted, and have human relationships and connections that the students in other states are not going to have. This is going to put us apart. So given that kids were graduating without having a single in person friend or know how to make eye contact or just collaborate on a project because of these devices in their hands all day long when they should be learning, and during breaks and lunches and gym class when they're not even talking to each other, the lunchrooms were silent. I was in these schools and now they're alive again. So I think that we gave a gift to them because when they graduate at age 18, I don't think they're gonna recede backwards and give up friendships in person. And meeting people from all over. I think that, you know, as adults, I don't think they're gonna shift back to this addiction.

Tamsen Fadal (54:44)

That's right.

Governor Kathy Hochul (54:44)

And so also on what we did on algorithms, it's the addictive algorithms that are bombarding our students all day long. And we're the first state in the nation that stood up to the tech companies. They tried it in California and did not succeed. We said, you cannot do this to students unless a parent gives permission. And I don't know a whole lot of parents are going to think it's okay. You can't send notifications over the overnight hours because our kids need to sleep. And trying to find safeguards around this whole AI chatbots and making them put in warnings, keep reminding that this is not a real person. And if you. If there's any talk of harming yourself, that instead of what's happening now is like, if you mention that you're going to get all sorts of information about how to take your own life, that's what's out there now, as opposed to here's the help. And I will tell you something I learned from girls who code. I went to one of the graduations. I was so proud to see this. There was a group of girls from the Bronx who didn't know each other, but they were brought together. They worked together all summer. They were supposed to design an app together. And these girls, high school girls, came up with an app that if you're feeling down or depressed, you go to this app and it's gonna give you uplifting messages, happy music, happy images and information how to get help for yourself if you're having mental health problems. And they all. They were so proud of us. I'm thinking, I don't know that a group of young boys would have devised the same thing. There might have been like, oh, let's create some of these characters or sports guys or this. And these girls were empathetic and trying be attuned to the struggles of their classmates and spent the summer on their very first coding project and did this. I said, that's why we need more young women in this space, because I don't think you'd end up with chatbots and things like that. That women know young, even young women know. That's dangerous. I don't want my little sister falling into that. So I think, again, the emergence of more women in the workplace overall, but also in these, where the technology is being devised, that's what we have to.

Tamsen Fadal (56:44)

Have, especially at this moment. Well, listen, this has been such a powerful conversation.

Reshma Sajani (56:48)

You made me cry. You made me think.

Tamsen Fadal (56:50)

Thank you so much. You're so generous with your time.

Governor Kathy Hochul (56:52)

Oh we're so grateful for I'm so.

Tamsen Fadal (56:54)

Grateful and happy that you're the governor of my state. Feel very lucky.

Governor Kathy Hochul (56:59)

It's an honor. Thank you.

Reshma Sajani (57:09)

Thank you so much to Governor Kathy Hochul for talking with me today. As I said to her when I saw her, it's just not lost on me how big of a deal it is that I get to sit down and have a conversation with the Governor of New York. So I am really grateful for the time she took out to talk with me and all you midlifers. One last thing. Thank you for listening to my so called Midlife Life. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like Even more from my conversation with Anna Malika Tubbs, who gives you tips for finding time to write. When you're juggling all the things we juggle, just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app that's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. I'm your host, Reshma Sajani. Our associate producer is Isaura Acevez and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kulraev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oja Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax, and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show. Well as@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye.

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Gretchen Rubin (59:41)

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Governor Kathy Hochul (59:59)

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