← My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
F the Fairy Tale: Rewriting Love in Midlife with Damona Hoffman
00:44:54
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- [00:01]
Reshma Adjani
Today's episode is supported by what Should I Do with My Money? An original podcast from Morgan Stanley. Let's be honest, money can make people feel insecure. That's why I love this podcast. It takes the fear out of talking about money by letting you listen in on real, unfiltered conversations between people asking big financial questions and the advisors who help them figure it out. It's smart, it's emotional, and it just might make you feel braver about your own money story. I just listened to the episode about the price tag of parenthood on what Should I Do with My Money and it hit me hard. Every parent I know is doing the same math. How do we give our kids the best without burning ourselves out? This conversation lays it all out. It's smart, it's relatable, and it reminds us that financial planning is part of caregiving. Definitely worth a listen. Search for what Should I Do with My Money in your podcast player will also include a link in the show Notes. Thank you to what Should I Do with My Money And Morgan Stanley for their support.
- [01:00]
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- [02:06]
Hey Midlifers, Just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of My so Called Midlife ad free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to an exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show and Apple podcasts make life suck less with fewer ads with lemonade premium. Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshmas Adjani, dating in midlife. Yep, we're going there now. Most of us were raised on a love story that went something like this. Be good, play by the rules, and one day you'll be chosen. But what happens when you hit midlife and realize that fairy tale was never written for you? My guest today, Damona Hoffman, says it's time to write your own story. And I agree. She's a dating coach, a beloved TV.
- [03:21]
Personality, and the author of the fairy.
- [03:24]
Tale rewrite the dating myths and live your own love story. She joins me to talk about love in the middle, how technology and apps are just changing the way we connect, and this radical belief that love just isn't a reward for perfection. She gave some pretty good tips, too, for getting back in this dating scene. So this one's for anyone who's wondered if it's too late to start over or too early to give up. And trust me, you're going to want to send this podcast to the girls group Chat. Simona, hey. Oh, my God. I've been, like, dying to talk to you all week. I've read your book. I've watched all your podcasts. Like, I've been, like, thinking about you, and just so many things you said just kind of blew my mind. I always ask everybody the same question, which is, you're in midlife. How does it feel? Are you like, fuck, yeah? This is great. Are you like, hell, no.
- [04:17]
Damona Hoffman
Yeah, I'm killing it. Seriously?
- [04:19]
Reshma Adjani
Tell me.
- [04:20]
Damona Hoffman
Seriously. I really feel like I have crafted a life that I can be happy with, and I've been very fortunate to have the foundation that I had, the parents that I had to grow up the way that I did. Like, I didn't have a choice. I'm a black Jewish girl from the Midwest.
- [04:38]
Reshma Adjani
Ooh.
- [04:38]
Damona Hoffman
I had to live brave. I had to live out loud. And there have been many moments and many transitions in my life where I had to really ask myself, we only get to do this once, as far as we know. Is this how I want to be living my life? And through bravery, which I know you talk about a lot, I have charted a path that I feel like I can be happy with, and I'm passionate about doing that for others, too.
- [05:03]
Reshma Adjani
Is it getting better the older you're getting?
- [05:07]
Damona Hoffman
Um, I'm, like, better in some ways. I mean, my running time is not faster, but I. And, but, you know, it changes. Right. Like, even as I was running this morning, I was thinking, why do I run? I run because I can. Because there's going to be a time in my life where I won't physically be able to do that. So it's a little slower, but I still hit that treadmill.
- [05:32]
Reshma Adjani
It's so true. It's funny. It's. That is a big difference in midlife. Like, every time I work out, whether I run or I have an amazing tennis game or I lift something that I. I think, oh, thank you, God. Because I know there's gonna come a day where I can't do this.
- [05:46]
Damona Hoffman
Yeah. Yeah. And I see that, you know, with my own parents, I see how simple things become really challenging. So I just try not to take any moment for granted.
- [05:57]
Reshma Adjani
Absolutely.
- [05:57]
I took my parents to Italy for my dad's 80th birthday, and I was so. And with my five year old child in like a toe. And like every day we were clocking like 18,000 steps, 19,000 steps. And I was like, so impressed with them because they were able to still do it. And part of why my sister and I wanted to take this trip with them is because we're like, we don't know how long we have till you won't be able to take these kind of trips and walk and see the sights and, you know what I mean, move around like this.
- [06:29]
Damona Hoffman
Yeah. And that is really the hardest thing, I think, for being in midlife is kind of to be in that in between space. Also, like, I was like, oh, wonderful. A trip to Italy with your parents, with your son. I'm like, oh, well, now it's. It's become more layered.
- [06:44]
Reshma Adjani
Yeah. You're like, don't invite me. Thank you. Yeah, that doesn't sound as good. So listen, I want to start by saying I've, you know, I've seen you on the Drew Barrymore show. I've watched, listened to your podcast.
- [06:54]
But for folks who don't know you.
- [06:56]
Who is Damona Hoffman? How did you become a dating coach and expert?
- [07:03]
Damona Hoffman
Yeah, I became a dating coach because I was really bad at dating. And then I figured it out. I was living in la, working as a casting director and very frustrated with the dating scene. And it's funny now, having done this for like almost 20 years, hearing the same complaints. I'm like, this isn't new, folks. Like, people had these same complaints before. It's just happening at scale now. But working as a casting director, I Used to teach classes for actors in marketing. How to have headshots that would stand out to someone like me, how to tell their story visually and then what to do to get in the room. Because I found there were a lot of really talented actors that would get in the door for their dream role and then they'd mess it all up and do the same thing they did every time. They're like, why can't I get my big break? And I was online dating at the time and was like, wait a minute. Headshot is like a dating profile photo. A first date is basically an audition. So once I applied what I was learning professionally to my personal life, I ended up meeting the man who is still my husband 18 years later and realized that really it boiled down to how well do you know yourself and how well can you telegraph that information out into the world. I realize I just used a very old fashioned media term for something very, very new, but how do you really tell your story through your photos? How do you show up and engage with someone on a date? So I started writing dating profiles and then became a certified as a coach and relationship strategist from there.
- [08:39]
Reshma Adjani
It's so interesting. So I met my husband. I was throwing a fundraiser for Barack Obama. I was looking for a dj. My husband was like, you know, a startup founder that like DJs by night, who's like a nerd. You know, all the nerds think they're like, you know, DJ in the hall. And we were old fashioned bar sitting down, talking and I was like, oh, okay, this is interesting. And to another bar. And to my point is, is like we met irl, right? So I wasn't thinking about what's my headshot, what's the interview, right? Because for us back then, Friday night, put on your cute black dress, you got ready with your girls, you listened to some hip hop and you just went out and you probably were going to meet your next boyfriend or meet your husband or meet your next partner. Like that's how it was. So was what is better?
- [09:28]
Damona Hoffman
I don't like to spend too much time focusing on what's better. I like to just focus on what is. And a lot of people are like, I just didn't visualize meeting my partner that way. I didn't imagine, I don't want to tell that story to my kids. I'm like, I don't know, honey, you want to have kids if this is what everyone is doing, you know? And it's kind of like your analogy of you're going to the bar, but you can be at multiple bars at the same time. And it's also, like, you are at the most popular bar. So, sure, you can take your chances walking down the street, but I'm all about efficiency, and I work with a lot of very successful, very busy women, and especially single moms. Like, you ain't got a lot of time. So if you can line up your dating life and think of it, put a little bit more of a structure around it, like, sure, it could happen organically, but anything else that you've gotten in your life, has it unfolded organically, or did you have a system? Did you have a way to track what was happening? Did you have a plan?
- [10:31]
Reshma Adjani
Yeah.
- [10:32]
So that's interesting, because I think what you're saying is really powerful. You're this, which is probably why you name your book is F is the fairy tale, which is kind of like, some ways, fuck the fairy tale. Like, live in reality.
- [10:42]
Damona Hoffman
Yes.
- [10:42]
Reshma Adjani
Which is what you're saying. Like, forget about what it was. Focus on what is. And in your book, you challenge the stories that women are told about love, that if we're good, we'll be chosen. What are some of the myths that women experience right now about dating?
- [11:02]
Damona Hoffman
Ooh.
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Reshma Adjani
And are they different for women in midlife?
- [11:05]
Damona Hoffman
That's very interesting. I'm gonna take this question in two parts because I think it's important to note the subtitle. Cause a lot of people think, oh, f, the fairytale. She's anti love. And of course I'm not. I've been happily married for 18 years. I am all about love.
- [11:21]
Reshma Adjani
I feel like you're, like, the most pro love person I know, Right.
- [11:24]
Damona Hoffman
Drew called the book. Drew Barrymore called the book Hope with a roadmap. That's what I'm trying to do. But the subtitle is rewrite the dating myths and live your own love story. And what I'm trying to do is give people back their power instead of just saying, like, I'm waiting to get chose. I'm the princess in the tower. I'm actually a co creator in the experience of my life, in my dating experience, in the relationship that I'm trying to build. So I wrote the book around the four biggest myths that I saw people coming to me with and needing to rewrite to be able to find love. And the first one is just the list myth. I would ask someone, what are you looking for? They would tell me one of two things. Reshma. They would either say, well, I'll know it when I see it. And I'm like, girl, have you seen it yet? If you haven't, then maybe you don't know. You don't have enough clarity around that. The second thing that people would say is, well, he has to be this tall and look this way and have this education and, you know, a whole list of things where it's like, is this a real person or are you buying into the fantasy that we have been fed about what we actually need? And if you are going to be a business leader, a type a woman, you're going to be out in the world doing your thing. Do you actually need a partner that has all of these accolades or do you need someone that's going to hold you and support you and pick up the kids and not be threatened by your success? Personally, I would like the latter. And we give away so much of our power in relationships, it's really weird to see this happen. So you know when you say the difference in midlife, I think we know ourselves better. But then sometimes our expectations become higher because we're like, I've built this whole thing. You're not gonna come in here and start taking from me.
- [13:19]
Reshma Adjani
Well, that's so interesting you say that, Simone. Cause I would think for my friends that are divorced now, right, they did what you just did, right? They're like, I'm a badass bitch, but I gotta marry someone who's exactly the same, makes the same amount of money, works at the same exact place because we have to match. Because it's almost like he or she was a representation of my worth, right? And then you get into that marriage and it doesn't work, right? Because there's so much resentment because may have needed someone who was able to do more cooking and more laundry and more pickup, you know, or more support work, right? And so you realize the second time around, like, yes, I just need someone who's going to see me. So there is something that I see with my friends that is about both getting older and the wisdom that you have about love and then being able to do it over again. So you kind of learn from your mistakes. Do you see that? Or we just like that, replicate the same mistakes?
- [14:14]
Damona Hoffman
Let's hope not. Let's hope not. Let's hope we're learning from our life experiences. But it's a double edged sword because we realize, oh, I don't need all of those other things. But then there's also sometimes a rigidity that develops when you're used to doing things your own way. So you have to create space also for the relationship. And so sometimes people will come to me in midlife and they're like, okay, this is my schedule. My kid comes first and my job comes second. And like, can you just help me find somebody to just slot in here? And like, I have openings on Tuesdays and, and Sundays. Can we just.
- [14:58]
Reshma Adjani
Such a great point, right? Such a great point.
- [14:59]
Damona Hoffman
Then it's a different process. It's a refinement of the list as well, to be able to clarify what you need right now and also what you're willing to bring to the table yourself. Because relationships, you know, this being married yourself, Relationships are a constant space. Yeah. Negotiation and compromise. And a lot of people will tell me, well, I'll just do it when I meet the person. Like, then I'll make the space, then I'll do the compromise. But I believe you have to practice a lot of these skills. And I think dating is a set of learned skills.
- [15:38]
Reshma Adjani
So what's a good example of that? What's a practice that somebody can put into place now about compromising? So if you, if you're 40 years old, you're not married, you haven't actually had to do the negotiation of like, where do you put your toothbrush? And, you know, I mean, who's going to, like, put down the toilet? Like, you've had, you've been like, had everything your way. What's the piece of advice that you would give to just start learning that skillset?
- [15:58]
Damona Hoffman
It is first important for you to put the container around your dating experience. So I'll tell you a story of a client I had who, midlife, very successful in her job, worked a ton of hours, and I said to her, okay, to bring in the relationship that you want, we need to create space for this. So I need you to commit to three hours a week that you are saving for dating related activities. And she was like, damona, three hours, I don't have that. And I'm like, you have 60 hours for work. You have clearly at least three hours to exercise. There's time for your dog. If this is the most important relationship of the future in your life, then how can you not commit at three hours a week to it? And she was like, but sometimes my boss calls, I may get work over the weekend, and then I have to do it. What I tried to emphasize to her is that if you wait to create the space, when this person arrives, they will not arrive because they will not see the space in your life for them. So if you don't start practicing with setting the boundary with your boss. Of course your boss is gonna give you the work on the weekend cause you're the single girl that's always available. You always say yes. You always show up and you're gonna do it. But you don't have to wait until you have I have to get home to my husband. I have to get home to my kids. To create that boundary and that space around your own time that is to build the most important relationship of your life.
- [17:39]
Reshma Adjani
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It takes the fear out of talking.
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About money by letting you listen in on real, unfiltered conversations between people asking big financial questions and the advisors who help them figure it out. It's smart, it's emotional, and it just might make you feel braver about your own money story. I just listened to the episode about the price tag of parenthood on what Should I Do with My Money and it hit me hard. Every parent I know is doing the same math. How do we give our kids the best without burning ourselves out. This conversation lays it all out. It's smart, it's relatable, and it reminds us that financial planning is part of caregiving. Definitely worth a listen. Search for what Should I Do with My Money? In your podcast player. We'll also include a link in the show. Notes. Thank you to what Should I Do with My Money? And Morgan Stanley for their support. As the air turns crisp and the holidays draw near, comfort becomes the best gift of all. Quince delivers layers that last sweaters, outerwear and everyday essentials that feel luxurious, look timeless and make holiday dressing and gifting effortless. Quince has it all. $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters made for everyday wear. Denim that never goes out of style. Silk tops and skirts that add polish. Perfect for gifting or upgrading your own wardrobe. I'm obsessed with my new 100% leather jacket. It's the perfect addition to all of my fall outfits. By working directly with ethical top tier factories, Quint skips the middlemen and offers prices 50% less than similar brands. So step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good and last. From quince Go to quince.com midlife for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.com midlife to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com midlife Remember when life felt lighter?
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- [22:06]
Damona Hoffman
So red flags abound. We can always find a reason to say no. A lot of times I need to give people more reasons to say yes, but more clarity around those reasons. So going back to the example of the list and you know, somebody will say, I need somebody who has this education, makes this much money, is this tall, and I dig underneath that. And I'm like, why? Why do you need that? Why is that important to you? A lot of times it doesn't connect to our own beliefs or our own needs. It connects to something we were told. It connects to the fairy tale, it connects to our family values. And it may not connect to the life that we're actually leading. So I try to help people drill into, from a life goals and from a values perspective, what are the three most important things? And then only one deal breaker. Just to get to the date. That's where there's a lot of friction right now. Reshma. It's not that people are having trouble meeting. It's that they can't get off the phone, they can't get into the real world, or when they do, they can't seem to make a connection.
- [23:20]
Reshma Adjani
Talk to me about that. So it's like they are actually connecting on the phone, on text, online, but they're not meeting in person.
- [23:29]
Damona Hoffman
Yeah, there's a few things going on. A lot of times people try to screen for their dates in the DMs and in the text and stay on the dating app too long. And now people are using chat phishing, they're using ChatGPT to write their text messages. There's a false sense of intimacy that's developing and somebody will say to me, I spent two months getting to know this person and then we finally met. And first of all, they will scam, they will ghost, or they're just not able to live up to this fantasy expectation that you've set in your mind. So I like to have people get offline as quickly as possible somewhere between one day and one week so that you can really see who they are. Because you cannot screen in the DMs, especially if they're using chat.
- [24:19]
Reshma Adjani
Okay, so if I'm DMing with somebody, not me, nahal, and you are like, oh, I kinda like this person, like, you immediately should be like, let's get a cup of coffee. What's preventing those people from doing that? Is it like you just said, the time? Is it the like we're now nervous to meet in person because we don't know how to communicate with people. In person, what is it?
- [24:37]
Damona Hoffman
It's all of those things, or is.
- [24:39]
Reshma Adjani
It, like, it makes me feel like I'm actually trying to date because I'm doing all these things, but really, I'm not really trying to meet somebody.
- [24:44]
Damona Hoffman
Girl. That's deep. It's all of those things. And it's. Texting is very enticing. You know, this. You know, just from a neurological level.
- [24:53]
Reshma Adjani
I'm old school. I call people still. Like, my team is like, am I in trouble? I'm like, no, I just like to talk.
- [25:00]
Damona Hoffman
It is old school. It is old school. And also in dating, you know, I like the phone call, too. I say the phone call is a really good screener. And I try to encourage my clients to do a phone call or a video chat before that first date, because I think you can tell a lot more screening that way than you can just texting for weeks and weeks and weeks, and people are afraid. Understandably. I am really bullish about safety for women, particularly with dating apps. I wish dating apps, and I've worked behind the scenes at many dating apps before. I wish dating apps were more focused on women's safety so that we didn't have to do a lot of these things. But we think that we can screen them in the text and that we know them better. But really what we're doing is wasting our own time, because you can tell a lot more if you can have a synchronous conversation with somebody or meet them face to face. And many times, those romances that are happening for weeks and weeks online are not actually real romances. They're married, they're scammers. They're not who they say they are. They're embarrassed, they're catfished. So we have to just bring it all out in the open, like, you.
- [26:09]
Reshma Adjani
Sort through it much quicker. I do want to take a minute to talk about dating apps. Right. You said our brains are scrambling to adapt to the dopamine loops of likes and swipes.
- [26:19]
Yeah.
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And so from where you sit, are dating apps actually? I mean, you met your husband on a dating app.
- [26:25]
Right.
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So are they helping them build relationships, or are they monetizing loneliness?
- [26:32]
Damona Hoffman
To clarify, I met my husband on a dating site.
- [26:35]
Reshma Adjani
Oh.
- [26:35]
Damona Hoffman
Back in the olden times. Had to go to FedEx Kinkos to scan my photo. I met him on a site called nerve.com that is now defunct. But it was very different in that time because you had a lot more information on the person. The bios were much more thorough.
- [26:52]
Reshma Adjani
Oh, girl, don't you. My mother spent a lot of time on those Indian matrimony sites, so I know what you're talking about.
- [26:59]
Damona Hoffman
Yes. There's a lot more that goes into the compatibility, and when we actually met someone, we really knew more about them, because the chat is just fake. It's just. It's so surface that you really can't tell anything if you're in what I call the texting trap. But I don't think that dating apps are trying to keep people single. That has been a pervasive narrative the last few years, and to me, it doesn't even make sense. Like, if you had. Like, if you had a gym, you were like, well, I can't help people get healthy because then they're gonna stop coming to the gym. People would be like, don't go to that gym.
- [27:38]
Reshma Adjani
Right, Right.
- [27:38]
Damona Hoffman
But it's kind of the same idea on dating apps. It's like a gym for love, and you can use it, and you can move offline into a successful relationship. I think the problem is that you have to be responsible for your own experience on the apps, and that's the part that I think a lot of people are missing and driven by. Of course, they want people to spend as much time on the apps while they're there, and they want people to have meaningful connections in some ways.
- [28:10]
Reshma Adjani
Sorry, I'm like a. A tech company skeptic, right? I'm like, all the algorithms are getting us to hate each other rather than like each other. But what could also be true is the. You know, they're incentivizing you to spend more time on the app rather than to meet irl. But I love what you're saying, but you're saying you control that. But can I ask you, do you really control that? Because if there is a culture, because I feel like a friend said to me, well, he'll just think I'm weird if I'm like, let's meet up. Because you're supposed. There's, like, a culture to. You know what I mean? Doing the back and forth for weeks on end.
- [28:40]
Yes.
- [28:41]
How do you break through that?
- [28:42]
Damona Hoffman
Yes. And people will also say to me, but, Damona, why are you telling me to do a phone call? Nobody does that. And I'm like, ding, ding, ding. No one's doing that. Because we become victims of the culture, and then we lose control of our own life. Then we get the same results that everybody is getting and being disillusioned and dissatisfied, and we forget why we even showed up there in the first place was actually to make connection so don't.
- [29:13]
Reshma Adjani
Go back and forth online for three months and pretend you're in some romance that you're not. Like, get to IRL real quick and meet in person, because then you will be able to very quickly figure out whether this person could be the one or not. What's your second piece of advice?
- [29:30]
Damona Hoffman
My second piece of advice is if you're leading from a place of clarity in what you're looking for, that is going to drive through the first few dates. So a lot of times people are like, well, I don't know, should I go on a second day? Like, I'm not really sure if you've really done your deep dive into mindset, which is like the whole first part of my book, the mindset around dating, what you need, and what you're willing to bring to the table. It's not really a difficult decision. Should I go out with this person again or not? Because you're not asking yourself, am I going to marry this person? You're asking yourself, can I spend another hour with this person? Which brings me to my second, like, hot tip. People are spending too long on their first dates. Mm, 60, 90 minutes, tops. It's just a check in, just to feel the actual vibe and see, is this a person that I could spend another hour with? And through the first three dates, that's really all you need to be focused on. After three dates, then we start looking for chemistry. Then we start talking about the future and their. Their political beliefs and all of that stuff. But people are, like, looking for shortcuts because they don't want to do the process because time. We are so strapped for time right now. We're so burned out and just mentally zapped that we're just like, can we just get to the. And I do in happily ever after part? If we even want that.
- [31:06]
Reshma Adjani
I wanted to because it's interesting to me. So I would think that you'd be. You'd just be like, you know what? Spend five hours together and then just bang it out. But you're saying no. It's better to have a handful of concentrated, smaller periods of time. And the goal of that meeting is to know whether you want to do it again.
- [31:24]
Damona Hoffman
Yes, because we want to think of the energy of a date. It's an inverted wave. And it starts on a high note. Like, if you remember, you remember the first time you met your husband, I'm sure.
- [31:34]
Reshma Adjani
Oh, yes, I do. Yeah.
- [31:35]
Damona Hoffman
You remember that vividly. And you probably remember the end of the night, like, did he ask for.
- [31:40]
Reshma Adjani
Your phone Number or, oh, we went to another bar. And then I didn't end, I didn't follow your advice. I didn't spend any money.
- [31:45]
Damona Hoffman
But what do you remember about that first time that you met? Do you remember what you talked about? Do you remember anything in the middle? You remember everything. Okay, well, you're rare. You're rare. But most people just kind of remember the beginning and the end.
- [31:58]
Reshma Adjani
You're right. I mean, I, I, I don't, I couldn't tell you, like, at minute 70 we were talking about this. But yeah, I mean, right, you, you know, how you felt when he first walked into the room and what you thought. And then like at the end when you were saying goodbye, did you want to be like, oh, my God, thank God this is over, or like, I hope he gives me, I hope he calls me or texts me or whatever?
- [32:16]
Damona Hoffman
Right, exactly. So we want to save that energy in the early phase. Otherwise if we stay too long on the date we had that peak moment and then it continued, and then you start to feel like, well, we kind of ran out of things to talk about or it wasn't that interesting after five hours. And then it doesn't give us enough momentum to get to the second date. We tend to date just like we're the protagonist in our love story, but we forget that there are other characters. So we're also doing this to retain the energy on their side and their curiosity to drive them to be like, we gotta do this again.
- [32:54]
Reshma Adjani
Yeah, you gotta leave more to the imagination.
- [32:57]
Damona Hoffman
Yes, exactly. And then also you can see how you feel in between the dates. I'm very interested in what happens in the in between connection points. If you're thinking about that person and you're excited to see them and that excitement continues to build or sustained, that's very different than, you know, you ever, like, meet someone and right after you're feeling all the vibes from that first meeting, and then three days later you're.
- [33:25]
Reshma Adjani
Like, eh, eh, not so much.
- [33:27]
Damona Hoffman
Not so much.
- [33:28]
Reshma Adjani
Yeah, I feel that way sometimes about, like, dresses or shoes I want to buy. I'm like, I got to get it. And then I make myself not get it. And then I, I forget about it that I even wanted it that badly. But I feel like that's like with everything. Right?
- [33:40]
Damona Hoffman
And then there's the dress that got away where you're like.
- [33:42]
Reshma Adjani
And then there's that you can't stop thinking about and that now is no longer available online. That is happening to me right now with the.
- [33:50]
Damona Hoffman
Sorry.
- [33:51]
Reshma Adjani
It's okay.
- [33:52]
Damona Hoffman
I stepped on a sore spot.
- [33:53]
Reshma Adjani
Sore spot. All right, I want hot tip three because hot tip one and two were so damn good. Was hot tip three.
- [34:00]
Damona Hoffman
Hot tip three is. And this is really tricky in the modern era of dating is try to protect the early phase. I think that early phase of dating is really magical and you can't get it back. And a lot of times we are in such a rush to get to the end that we try to shortcut it. So we're like, oh, I'll introduce them to my friends in the first three dates or I'm gonna soft launch them online. And then you have other people's opinions coming at you. And. And we lose some of the magic by bringing other people into the circle, by bringing other opinions in, by talking about what's happening. It's sort of like, you know, you're interviewing for a job. You don't want to tell people.
- [34:45]
Reshma Adjani
Yeah, you don't want to jinx it.
- [34:47]
Damona Hoffman
Right. You don't want to jinx it. But also, like, you lose your own internal compass sometimes when you're taking in too many other other perspectives and data points, you know?
- [34:57]
Reshma Adjani
You call this slow love, right?
- [34:59]
Damona Hoffman
Yes, this is all part of slow love. Slow dating. And I didn't coin that term. I think the late, great Dr. Holland Fisher did.
- [35:06]
Reshma Adjani
Yeah, it reminds me of Sade. You know, like when you, when I was reading, I was like, ooh, this is very like, sad day, slow love.
- [35:13]
Damona Hoffman
But it is, it's really proven to be the most reliable path to a relationship. And we didn't even talk about, like, sex and oxytocin and the hormonal release.
- [35:29]
Reshma Adjani
Yeah, what's your point on that? Are you supposed to wait real long for that or what's your theory?
- [35:32]
Damona Hoffman
I would love to have, like, my friend, matchmaker Maria. She has a 12 date rule that she talked about on dates and mates. And she has like her old calculation of how many, like a phone call is a date and all. And Steve Harvey says, Wait 90 days, which I think is outrageous in today's world. I say you date at the speed of safety. So if you are not ready to talk about sex and the consequences of sex and what you like and get your needs met and all of that, then maybe you're not ready to have sex with that person yet and you can't go back once you cross that. That threshold, you no longer have that rom com, will they or won't they engine? It's just kind of like, well, I guess this is what it is. And now we're into conflict resolution and compromise and all of these things that are all part of relationships but are less sexy.
- [36:26]
Reshma Adjani
Hmm.
- [36:27]
You encourage people to. To date like themselves, but, like, it's so counterintuitive to all the messages that we get, which is, like, filter your face. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, I was even reading an article which was, like, telling women not to show up as their authentic self in the workplace. Like, it's just this wild moment that we're in right now. And so how do we bring more truth and less audition energy back into the ways we are online?
- [36:59]
Damona Hoffman
It's interesting. You sort of brought it back to the beginning of the audition. And it's the same advice that I would tell actors is like, you know, there's a million people that could do this role, but there's only one you. And it's the same with dating. Like, anyone can put on a filter and put on a good face, and you're gonna go to the date, and then they're gonna be like, oh, you are different. What's the point? Like, using dating apps as social media for likes and for ego boost is fine if that's what your goal is. But if your goal is real connection and a relationship, then you're working against yourself, and it's much better to be authentic. Like I talked in the book about back when OkCupid used to, they had, like, ratings of the photos. They found that the people who had the least engagement were the people in the middle who were like, some people rated as, you know, most people rated as, like, a three out of a five. Of course, the fives got a lot of engagement, but the ones. The people who some people rated as a 1 and some people rated as a 4 or 5 actually had more activity than the threes, because some people looked at them and were like, oh, this person is interesting, or this person is weird, like me. And what we're really looking for is to be seen. I'm all for this. This leaning into authenticity and individuality. I know Gen Z kind of gets a bad rap for it, but I think that that's really all we have. And when we're looking at a relationship, there's so many possible combinations, which is why I talk in my book about the soulmate myth being a myth. There's not one person. There's so many combinations. But what is it that makes you unique and what makes you uniquely attracted.
- [38:52]
Reshma Adjani
Or a good fit? Like, I always say, it's like, for me, like, I wanted to marry my best friend. I wanted to marry somebody who was gonna I knew what I wanted to do in this life and I needed somebody who was like, yep, I'm down for that ride. And who's gonna be a good father, a good partner, a good friend. And so I think you're right. It's like if you're looking for true partnership and friendship, you know, you have to be you. That's the only way that it's gonna work. You know that moment Mid morning Reaching for my second cup of coffee. Jittery, stomach growling, mind racing, but somehow unfocused. I love my coffee ritual, but it wasn't exactly loving me back. I needed something that kept up with me without making me feel like I was running on fumes by noon. Then I found Everyday Dose Coffee plus Benefits. It's real high quality coffee blended with mushrooms, collagen and nootropics that boost focus and lift your mood. Now I get that clean, sustained energy all day long without the crash, the bloat, or the anxiety spiral. My brain feels sharper, my gut feels calmer, and I still get to start every morning with a cup that tastes like actual coffee. Because it is coffee. Just better right now. For Black Friday, get 61% off your first coffee plus starter kit, a free A2 probiotic creamer, and over $100 in free gifts. Plus enter for a chance to win $100 cash or get your entire order refunded. Visit everydaydose.com midlife or use midlife at checkout.
- [40:21]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Well, hi everybody, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus from the Wiser Than Me podcast. And I'm not gonna talk about food waste this time. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill. It could be enriching our soil or feeding our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill Food Recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. But it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true. I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and it's fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. But the clean clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and it's engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you have to kind of live with Mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.
- [41:51]
Reshma Adjani
There's one thing that all people on earth have in common. We move through the world in a human body. Bodies ache, they bleed, they desire. They hold the stories of our lives. And when people have power over their bodies, when they can access the care their bodies need, they can begin to write their own stories. International Planned Parenthood Federation, or ippf, is the world's largest network for sexual and reproductive health rights and justice. They are sharing real stories of people around the world. People like Alina in Malawi who walked.
- [42:25]
Miles to the nearest clinic to birth.
- [42:27]
Her baby, only to give birth along the way. Everybody holds a story and you can read just a few of them now@ippf.org everybody.
- [42:40]
James Corden
Hello, I'm James Corden, and on my new show, this Life of Mine, I sit down each week, week with some of the most fascinating people on planet Earth. From Dr. Dre to Julianne Moore to David Beckham to Cynthia Erivo to Martin Scorsese to Jeremy Renner to Denzel Washington to Kim Kardashian. We talk about the people, places, possessions, music and memories that made them who they are. These are intimate conversations full of stories that you've never heard before. This Life of Mine premieres October 21st. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [43:17]
Reshma Adjani
I want to talk about the flip side. So is this even all a good idea? There's been all these articles out lately that, like, marriage is over and done, right? Like, younger generation of women are kind of doing the math and they're like, yep, this doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense for me financially. The cultural pressure, you know what I mean, on getting married, has, is far less than it was. And now, you know, if the point is procreation, having children, it's like we've priced most people out of motherhood and parenthood. So what's the point? I mean, you kind of start your book talking about there are more single adults living in the United States than ever before. In 2021, the US Census reported 126.9 million unmarried people over the age of 18. That means half of the American adult population is carrying out their lives under a new set of norms. If someone's listening right now and they're like, yeah, I know, what do you.
- [44:20]
Damona Hoffman
Say to them, I say, that's okay. And that's what divesting from the fairy tale ideal is all about is like, let's just re examine this. And especially if you're in midlife and you came out of a marriage that caused you a lot of pain and strife and you are happy to be free, please be free. Like, if that is what you need right now, don't feel like you need to rush into another partnership. Take that time that you need and know that our life happens in seasons. So I work with a lot of women in their 60s and 70s who are like, you know what? I do want partnership now in that last chapter of my life. And maybe I didn't need it before, and I certainly didn't need that deadbeat husband that was like draining my resources while, you know, I'm taking care of the kids and going to work and doing all the things. But do it as a choice, do it mindfully, because, yeah, marriage is not easy. It's not meant to be easy.
- [45:24]
Reshma Adjani
It's.
- [45:25]
Damona Hoffman
It's like it's a corporate merger, right?
- [45:27]
Reshma Adjani
It's a corporate mercer.
- [45:28]
Damona Hoffman
It's a partnership.
- [45:29]
Reshma Adjani
On that point, for those vets, those folks that are kind of in relationships and are married. I listened to one of your podcasts about loneliness and, you know, and if I had to describe a major emotion that I feel in midlife, it really is loneliness. I was talking to a girlfriend about that recently, and it's like, so much is changing. Your relationships are changing, your health is changing, you're far more exhausted, you don't have the same energy, Right? And oftentimes your marriage is a big source of loneliness because the marriage has become, you know, one really great corporate merger of logistics. And oftentimes my girlfriends and I will say, you know, I just, you know, like, I don't know if my husband, like, really knows me because we spend so much time just crossing off the to do list. And you call this the efficiency trap? You know, what's your advice to someone who might be listening right now that really wants to figure out how they can reignite that sense of intimacy in their relationship?
- [46:39]
Damona Hoffman
I have bad news for you. We have to design our life. There's no one else who's going to do that for you. So if you're finding yourself in a relationship, whether it's a marriage or partnership or even a friendship that you find unfulfilling, do not wait for somebody else to figure that out for you. Do not wait. If you are feeling the dissatisfaction, it is incumbent upon you to take the action. And that action can look different for a lot of people. You know, it might be talking to a trusted therapist. It might be creating space for intimacy in your life. Like I talked on that episode about, some people want to schedule the afternoon delight and some people want to just have more spontaneity, but know that they're going to do something together once a month or whatever the commitment is, but have mutual agreement around the shared goals that you have. And also, I believe that you need to have many different relationships in your life. And I'm not quite a relationship anarchist, but I'm like very close. Very close to being.
- [47:56]
Reshma Adjani
What does that mean? What's a relationship anarchist?
- [47:59]
Damona Hoffman
Our culture has centered marriage for so long in our lives. And then as dating apps actually became more popular and we could do more of the choosing and we had more, you know, we could sort. And it wasn't by chance that you would meet someone. It was that you were dialing in exactly what you wanted from the big Internet catalog of partnership. We started to have really big expectations for what marriage and partnership needed to look like. So back to that 1932 study that you cited from the book. At that time, when you were walking through the neighborhood, going to the store, going to school, and you met your partner in that way, what was the purpose of marriage? It was like, we're going to come.
- [48:46]
Reshma Adjani
Together, combine our assets and have kids.
- [48:49]
Damona Hoffman
Exactly. It was logistic. And we had other people in our community for emotional support. We had a multi generational support system and many things that we don't have. So it's a lot of pressure in today's world for your partner to be your best friend, your lover, your confidant, your business partner. You're the CEO of the parental household, the co CEO. So I also believe that you need to look at all of the places where you can get love. And relationship anarchy is just not centering the marriage in your life. Looking at that as one of your most important relationships while continuing to invest in the other relationships that make you feel loved, supported and heard.
- [49:39]
Reshma Adjani
Simona, that is like the best fucking advice I've gotten in a really long. I'm not joking.
- [49:44]
Damona Hoffman
Relationship anarchy revolution.
- [49:46]
Reshma Adjani
Yes.
- [49:46]
Damona Hoffman
Kind of a term that non monogamists use. But you should know that, you know, before you join the revolution.
- [49:53]
Reshma Adjani
I'll take it. Such a powerful perspective. That would probably lower the divorce rate. You know, like it. It is true. I think we're looking for all these things from one person and it's not realistic.
- [50:03]
Damona Hoffman
Yeah. And it Happens in seasons. You know, like right now, my husband is in a really busy period at work, and so I know my role is to give him the support and space that he needs and to also. He was out of town for two months. My job was be primary parent to these kids.
- [50:23]
Reshma Adjani
Yeah.
- [50:24]
Damona Hoffman
And then as he wraps up this project, it's going to change. And last year when my book came out, it was more my time.
- [50:31]
Reshma Adjani
It was your time to be out in the world.
- [50:32]
Damona Hoffman
So. But we just, we have to build in those moments for connection with each other. I think communication, it's really at the foundation of all the work that I'm doing.
- [50:41]
Reshma Adjani
No, I talk to. I call my husband like three times during the day.
- [50:44]
Damona Hoffman
And you like the phone call?
- [50:46]
Reshma Adjani
And I like the phone call. He's like, there she is again. But like, yeah, I mean, I think that's right. I think it's like communication and conversation. But also I do think, like, we do have to teach women, I think especially in midlife, how to make other relationships. Because it is. I find it hard, I always say, like, I hide in the bathroom half the time at events. Like, I just, you know, it's just, it's harder. And if you are not willing to be incredibly vulnerable and shed some of that, then it even makes it even harder.
- [51:15]
Damona Hoffman
So.
- [51:15]
Reshma Adjani
But I think you have to learn that a little bit, right?
- [51:17]
Damona Hoffman
Yes. All of these are learned skills. These social skills that for many years have been told to us are soft skills. They're not. They're like, nice to have. I actually think those are the skills that we really need to center and connection, communication, belonging. That's all at the core of everything that you do.
- [51:39]
Reshma Adjani
Yeah.
- [51:40]
So to close, I really love. You said love is not a reward for perfection. And that line really hit me because for a lot of women I talk to, they feel like they failed at love because either they didn't follow the script or they did and it wasn't what was promised. And so they're disappointed. What does a real grown up, midlife version of happily ever after look like?
- [52:09]
Damona Hoffman
It looks like a mirror. I believe that relationships are a mirror to teach us more about ourselves. And I always want to be evolving into the best version of a human that I can be. That is the primary function of my marriage. Like, yes, I find my husband very attractive. Yes, I. I also am intellectually stimulated by him, but at the core, he sees me and knows me so well and can reflect to me when I have an opportunity for growth.
- [52:45]
Reshma Adjani
Hmm. You know, my spiritual coach says that that's what we need in our lives are mirrors. It's like finding people who reflect back to you, who you are.
- [52:56]
Damona Hoffman
Yes.
- [52:57]
Reshma Adjani
All right. Well, this was a beautiful conversation. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful we've had a chance to talk.
- [53:02]
I love your book.
- [53:03]
Everybody read it.
- [53:04]
Damona Hoffman
Thank you. F the Fairy Tale. F the Fairy Tale. But believe in love.
- [53:08]
Reshma Adjani
Believe in love.
- [53:10]
Damona Hoffman
And believe in love in all forms.
- [53:11]
Reshma Adjani
Yeah.
- [53:13]
Damona Hoffman
Well, I love this conversation. Thank you so much for having me. Reshma.
- [53:16]
Reshma Adjani
Thank you.
- [53:25]
So you heard it here. Whether you're partnered or single angle, the message is the same. Stop waiting to be chosen. Choose yourself first. A huge thank you to Damona for joining me and sharing all of her incredible wisdom. You can tune in to her podcast dates and mates wherever you get yours. And be sure to check out her new book, F the Fairy Tale. It's packed with practical advice and a whole lot of hope. Before you go, thanks for listening to My so Called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now's a click. Great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content you can't hear anywhere else. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all the other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com My so called Midlife is brought to you by Moms First. Come see what we're all about at MomsFirst US. I'm your host and executive producer, Reshma Sajani. Our senior producer is Katie Eckstek Cordova. Our producer is Beth Rowe, and our sound engineer and editor is Mary Kelly of Sweater Weather. Our theme music was composed by Ivan Kurayev and performed by Ivan with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Scheduling support from Cindy Cook. Sales and distribution is by Lemonada Media. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know what you're doing in Midlife. Follow My so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. And be sure to follow me, Rash Mistajani and Moms first on Instagram, LinkedIn and Substack. Thanks and we'll be back next week.
- [55:05]
Damona Hoffman
Are you Team Batman or Spiderman? Is the ultimate dish pizza or tacos? Smash Boom.
- [55:12]
Reshma Adjani
Best will help settle those debates and so many more. Every episode we take two cool things.
- [55:17]
Damona Hoffman
Smash them together, and we see which one is best.
- [55:20]
Reshma Adjani
Debaters use facts, jokes, stories and more to argue for their side, and it's.
- [55:25]
All judged by a teenager, because who.
- [55:27]
Damona Hoffman
Is better at judging than a teen? It's fun. It's weirdly informative.
- [55:31]
Reshma Adjani
It's smashboom. Best get it wherever you get your podcasts.