Friendship Roundtable: How to Make, Keep & Deepen Friendships

Summary

Detailed Summary of "Friendship Roundtable: How to Make, Keep & Deepen Friendships"

Podcast: My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
Host/Author: Lemonada Media
Episode Released: April 2, 2025
Episode Title: Friendship Roundtable: How to Make, Keep & Deepen Friendships

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Introduction

In this episode of My So-Called Midlife, Reshma Saujani delves into the pivotal role of friendships during midlife. Recognizing that the friendships sustaining one's twenties and thirties might not necessarily carry into later years, Saujani seeks insights to navigate the evolving landscape of relationships. To explore this topic, she invites bestselling author Gretchen Rubin and Yale University professor Laurie Santos to join a roundtable discussion focused on making, keeping, and deepening friendships.

The Importance of Friendship in Midlife

Reshma begins by sharing her realization that midlife isn’t just about personal reinvention but also about nurturing meaningful friendships. She emphasizes that as life circumstances change—such as relocating from bustling cities like New York—maintaining existing friendships or forging new ones becomes challenging. Saujani states:

"Friendship was something that came up in so many of my incredible conversations... friendships in midlife, really become family."
— Reshma Saujani [00:24:24]

Types of Friendships

Laurie Santos introduces a scientific framework categorizing friendships into three types:

1. Intimate Friends: Close confidants who serve as the "3am call" friends.
2. Relational Friends: Acquaintances with whom one engages in regular activities but lacks deep intimacy.
3. Communal Friends: Members of community groups or shared activities, such as book clubs or sports teams.

Santos explains:

"The intimate one... your ride or die bestie... Relational friends are the ones you like to do stuff with... Communal friends are like your book club or your Pilates group."
— Laurie Santos [00:18:47]

Gretchen Rubin adds that understanding these different categories helps in recognizing the varying roles friends play in one’s life, thereby preventing the conflation of acquaintances with true friends.

Challenges in Making and Maintaining Friendships

The discussion highlights several obstacles faced in midlife friendship dynamics:

• Time Constraints: Balancing professional responsibilities, family, and personal time makes scheduling social interactions difficult. Rubin notes:

  "I think scheduling is the biggest obstacle in my life to friendship, which is just the sheer nuisance of 'Are you free?'"
  — Gretchen Rubin [00:28:42]

• Geographical Mobility: Moving away from established social circles can lead to the dissolution of long-term friendships.

• Changing Definitions: Friends may have differing expectations about the nature and frequency of interactions, leading to misunderstandings or perceived betrayals, as Laurie shares:

  "She was like, 'That's not in my definition of our friendship. We'll be just as good of friends if we do the same stuff over the phone or once a month.'"
  — Laurie Santos [00:26:21]

The Four Tendencies Framework

Gretchen Rubin introduces her Four Tendencies personality framework—Upholders, Questioners, Obligers, and Rebels—to elucidate how different personalities interact within friendships.

• Upholders: Meet both outer and inner expectations reliably.
• Questioners: Question all expectations and only meet those that make sense logically.
• Obligers: Meet outer expectations but struggle with inner ones unless externally accountable.
• Rebels: Resist all expectations, valuing personal freedom above all.

Reshma questions whether similarity in tendencies fosters better friendships:

"Am I more likely to have a better relationship with someone who is just like me, an upholder, or no?"
— Reshma Saujani [00:37:59]

Rubin responds that while similar tendencies can facilitate understanding, Obligers are particularly adept at maintaining diverse friendships, as they naturally accommodate various personality types. She shares strategies for interacting with rebels, such as embracing spontaneity instead of rigid scheduling:

"I don't feel like it's personal... so for an upholder, I don't have those problems because I'm so disciplined and so scheduled..."
— Reshma Saujani [00:39:49]

Practical Tips for Building and Deepening Friendships

The panel offers actionable advice for listeners aiming to enhance their friendships:

1. Be Present and Reach Out: Initiate contact without overanalyzing the interaction. Santos emphasizes the importance of expressing appreciation or checking in, which can significantly impact friends positively.

   "Whenever you have an urge to give a compliment, just send the text, just put in the call... It means more to the person than you think."
   — Laurie Santos [00:45:42]

2. Embrace Quality Over Quantity: Prioritize meaningful interactions even if infrequent. Saujani shares her approach to valuing the quality of time spent with friends over the quantity:

   "I'm going on a girls trip... we don't have to spend all of this time, but it's the quality of time when we're together."
   — Reshma Saujani [00:43:38]

3. Understand and Respect Different Definitions: Recognize that friends may have varied expectations and definitions of what constitutes a friendship, and navigate these differences with grace.

4. Model Positive Friendship Behaviors: Demonstrate the importance of friendships to children by actively engaging in and prioritizing social connections.

   "It's good role modeling, too... they see that you're going out with friends or having a book club."
   — Reshma Saujani [00:49:59]

5. Use Personality Insights: Apply the Four Tendencies framework to better understand and accommodate friends’ behavioral motivations, fostering healthier and more resilient relationships.

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with the panelists sharing personal anecdotes and reaffirming the significance of friendships in fostering happiness and well-being during midlife. Reshma Saujani encourages listeners to prioritize relationships and utilize the discussed strategies to cultivate lasting and fulfilling friendships.

"When you think about how friendships strengthen us and make us happier, remember you're also making your friends happier."
— Gretchen Rubin [00:47:59]

Laurie Santos adds:

"It's less awkward than you think. It means more to the person than you think."
— Laurie Santos [00:48:25]

Reshma concludes with a heartfelt sentiment:

"Friendship can shift to be a place where both parties are present in each other’s lives in meaningful ways."
— Reshma Saujani [00:47:30]

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Key Takeaways

• Diverse Friendship Types: Understanding the different categories of friendships can help manage expectations and foster deeper connections.

• Personality Alignment: Utilizing frameworks like the Four Tendencies can enhance interpersonal understanding and reduce friction in relationships.

• Active Engagement: Regularly reaching out and investing in friendships, even amidst busy schedules, is crucial for maintaining meaningful connections.

• Quality Over Frequency: Prioritizing the quality of interactions over the number or frequency can lead to more satisfying and lasting friendships.

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This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for anyone navigating the complexities of midlife friendships, offering both scientific insights and practical advice to help listeners build and sustain rewarding relationships.

Transcript

[Reshma Saujani]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

Hi, is this an okay time?

[Reshma Saujani]

It's your girl Dylan Mulvaney and I.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Am inviting you to my weekly cocktail party and my brand new podcast, the.

[Reshma Saujani]

Dylan Hour brought to you by Lemonau Media. Life is stressful and there is so.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Much darkness in the world.

[Laurie Santos]

I think we could all use a.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Little bit of trans joy. So join me every week as I interview some of my favorite A list.

[Reshma Saujani]

Celebrity friends and gurus and of course.

[Gretchen Rubin]

The dolls while we sip and spill.

[Reshma Saujani]

The scalding hot tea.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So put your worries aside and join.

[Reshma Saujani]

Me at the Dylan Hour.

[Gretchen Rubin]

You can listen on Apple, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Love ya.

[Laurie Santos]

Lemonade.

[Reshma Saujani]

When I started this podcast I thought Midlife was about personal reinvention. Figuring out like who I was beyond work, beyond motherhood, beyond all the roles I had spent my whole life trying to do perfectly. Here's what I realized along this journey. Midlife is also about friendship. Because here's the thing, the friendships that got you through your twenties and your thirties, they aren't always the ones that are gonna carry you through midlife. Sometimes, look, friendships fade, sometimes they deepen, and sometimes, if you're lucky, they circle back when you least expect it. Friendship was something that came up in so many of my incredible conversations Mel Robbins called bullshit on the myth that we're supposed to have best friends forever. People change, they grow. Friendships have seasons, she said. Chelsea Handler and Tamron hall both talked to me about how the friendships we do carry into midlife, how they can become stronger and more important than ever, like friendships in midlife, really become family. So today we're going to dive even deeper into this, and I'm calling in one of my friends, Gretchen Rubin, to help. She's a bestselling author of five New York Times bestsellers, including the Happiness Prize Project, which spent two years on the bestseller list. I joined her on her new podcast, Happier for a roundtable conversation on how you make, keep and deepen friendships. So whether you're looking for new connections or just trying to strengthen the relationships you already have, this conversation with Gretchen, it's a not to miss chapter in your midlife playbook. So let's get into it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Hello, we're here for More Happier, a podcast where we get more of the happier podcast. Today we've got a very special edition of More Happier. It's the first of a new series of roundtables where I'll invite people to come in to discuss all different subjects that contribute to happiness. First up, friendships. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. And hey, I might have even made a new friend in the process. Because friendship is such a huge element to a happier life. It is a great subject for a roundtable discussion to go deeper. And three of us are here today to talk about friendship. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, human nature, and friendship. And I am the host of the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. And also here today is Lori Santos. Laurie is a professor at Yale University, where she has taught the most popular course in Yale history, psychology and the good life. And she's also host of the Happiness Lab podcast, a terrific podcast that helps listeners improve their well being with the science of Happiness. Hello, Lori.

[Laurie Santos]

Hey, Gretchen. Thanks so much for having me on the show. This roundtable is fun and we'll build our own friendship.

[Gretchen Rubin]

We'll build our Own friendship. There you go. And we are also here with Reshma Sajani. Reshma is the founder of successful nonprofits Girls who Code and Moms first, and the bestselling author of books including Pay Up Brave Not Perfect and the Girls who Code book series. She is host of the terrific podcast My so Called Midlife, where she tackles the question, she's gotten everything she's ever wanted, so why does she feel so unsatisfied? Hello, Reshma.

[Reshma Saujani]

Hi, Gretchen. So great to be here.

[Gretchen Rubin]

This is going to be such a fun conversation. Okay, so friendship. Ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists agree that relationships are a key element to a happy life. And friendship is certainly an extraordinarily important form of relationship. Lately, I have been going through the empty nest phase of life, which I'm rebranding as the open door phase of life. And one thing that I noticed is how sometimes in this, people realize that they've been confusing friends with acquaintances. Like, they thought they had friends, but they really just had friendly acquaintances. And as I started talking more and more about friendship, I could see that people were really fired up about this subject. People really understand how important it is. And we're recording this in Women's History Month. And while friendships are certainly not exclusive to women, there is something kind of special about women's friendships. And so I'm so excited to talk to you both about friendship.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes.

[Laurie Santos]

Yeah. This is gonna be awesome.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Excellent. So let's talk about friendship. In your own life, have there been any special steps that you have taken in your own life to either strengthen existing friendships or to create new friendships? I mean, because what is it? Make new friends, but keep the old. One is silver, the other is gold. What have you done in your own life toward this aim? Loreal, let me ask you first.

[Laurie Santos]

Yeah. Well, one of the reasons I was so excited to have this conversation is I feel like this is something I've been thinking about a lot. Right. You know, I went through this period of feeling super burned. And one of the things I recognized during that period was that, like, I hadn't been investing enough time in my friendships. I too felt like I had a lot of these, like, so called relational friendships where it's like, you know, maybe I would see somebody at work or we were just kind of friends because we happened, you know, my, my husband happened to know his partner or something like that. And like, it was. I was finding that I just, like, didn't have the close connections that I thought. And so, you know, like a dutiful, like, happiness scientist that I am. I was like, I'm gonna go about making friends.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I'm putting it in the lab.

[Laurie Santos]

Putting it in the lab. Right. Like, but it's hard. It's hard in midlife, I think, for lots of reasons. Right. One is that we're all so busy.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Laurie Santos]

It wasn't the ease with which I made friendships with people. Say, like in college or something like that, where you're naturally running into each other. You meet someone at your yoga class, or I have this sort of movie night that I go to. You meet friends there, and it's like you actually have to put something in the calendar. And that can be kind of prohibitively taxing. But having put some effort into this, I can say that it is possible in midlife to make new friends. But it does feel like it takes some energy and some work.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And was there anything specific you tried?

[Laurie Santos]

I think it's like putting yourself out there and offering, like, you have to be the one that says, like, hey, maybe we should go on a coffee date, or maybe we should go shopping together, or maybe we should go see this movie together. What I did find, though, is that if you can kind of get through the hurdle of, like, figuring out everybody's collective schedules, people are usually really into it. Like, my experience has been, like, when you kind of push people to, like, take the friendship a next step, most people are kind of into that. It's just like, we're all so busy, it can be hard to get things on the calendar. Well.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And I know that there's research showing that, like, people really do value relationships. And even though you can feel sort of awkward or self conscious by making that gesture to go deeper with a friendship, usually people are very welcome of it. Like, if you want to be friends, probably they want to be friends. And that's kind of comforting to remember.

[Laurie Santos]

Totally. And I think this is a whole set of biases that I think if we're talking about friendship, we need to acknowledge, which is that our minds kind of suck when it comes to thinking about friendships. Like, we just have these biases that lead us towards anti friendship or under sociality, as the researcher Nick Epley calls it. One of my favorite ones is this effect called the liking gap, which is just like you assume that everybody in your life, from your best, best ride or die bestie to the person that you chat with occasionally at the coffee shop, you assume that that person likes you less than that person actually likes you. The liking gap is such a sad series of studies because they find that even college roommates Your college roommate that you've lived with for a year. If you ask how much does your college roommate like you? A person will say, well, they like me. You like only so.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So.

[Laurie Santos]

Whereas the college roommate's like, oh my gosh, I love them so much.

[Reshma Saujani]

So interesting.

[Laurie Santos]

It's like systematically pushing us. Yeah. Systematically pushing us towards less friendship. Which is. Which is terrible. Our minds shouldn't work that way.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. It's reassuring to remember that though. That's a couple. Totally. And how about you, Reshma? What have you done to strengthen or build relationships?

[Reshma Saujani]

God. I mean, as Laurie's talking, I have so many thoughts.

[Laurie Santos]

I mean.

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, first of all, I always had a tight crew of friends. And so I have been someone who, you know, spends my an extrovert as both of you understand. And so like I like keeping it tight and small and I like being able to just, you know, when I have dinner with a friend or we go on a girls trips, like we're just talking about gossip, about celebrity gossip or about nothing. Like it's just not serious. We're not talking about jobs. We're not talking about like what we want to change. I spend my whole life doing that. So I'm a really good friend. Like I pride myself on it. Right.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So that's part of your identity.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. Like I feel like ironically, even though I might be the busiest. Yes. Out of all my friends, like I'm the 3am phone call. Right. I'm the friend. When you're going through substance abuse, that is there. Right. Like I'm that friend. And so I think in order for me to be a good friend, I always kept my friendship circle really small. But my acquaintance pool very large. Right. So I'll have a drink with you. Right. You know what I mean? We'll catch up. But I'm not going to tell you all my secrets. Right. Or like we're not, you know, we're not going to get there because I just don't think then I have the can. Can give that way. So I think one that's always been really important to me. So one of the reasons why I wanted to really start looking at midlife is in midlife things change. And even people you've been friends with for 20 years change and there's breakups and if you're somebody that like has kept your crew tight, that's really hard. I think the second thing is, is that living in New York, everybody leaves. So all of a sudden. Right. I feel like I found myself when my kids were really young. Be like, oh my God, I got too many people I gotta have dinner with or see a Broadway show with or do this thing with. To all of a sudden like looking at my 10 year old being like, what are you doing tonight? You want to watch a movie?

[Laurie Santos]

Right?

[Reshma Saujani]

Like, everything shifted because nobody was there left and I had not learned. And I still don't know, I still don't, I still don't know how to make new friends. I really struggle. I can make a lot of acquaintances, but I really struggle with new friends. And if I was honest too, I just also like had a little bit of judgment around it. And I remember I was reading my mentor Hillary Clinton's book and she wrote in there like that she makes a new friend every year. And I was like, really? Like, if Hillary can make a new friend every year, then I should be able to make a new friend, you know what I mean? Every year. So that was a big eye opener for me.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Let me ask you a quick question. When you say you keep it tight, what is that number? I'm just curious, is that 3? Is that 10?

[Reshma Saujani]

It's under. It's under. I would say it's under. Under 7, under 8.

[Laurie Santos]

All of Rushman's friends listening right now are like, they're like, am I one of the seven?

[Reshma Saujani]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

I think that there are many different types of friendship, maybe more than people say. Like, I think sometimes it's like, are you friends or are you not friends or. It's interesting, Reshma, you were saying you'd have your tight close friends and then you have your acquaintances. And to me it seems like maybe it's good to think about different categories, all of whom maybe add to our life in a different way. And also like you say, have different levels of responsibility and like intimacy that we, that we bring to it and that we expect from it. But they can all add to our lives. But before we get into sort of our own colloquial sense of all these different kinds of friends, Laurie, what is the research showing about types of friendship as we're thinking this through?

[Laurie Santos]

Yeah. What's the science say? I mean, I guess a couple things. I mean, one is what the science really clearly shows is that like any kind of social connection is good, right?

[Gretchen Rubin]

I mean, barista.

[Laurie Santos]

Yeah, barista at the coffee shop, chat with the person on the train. All of that's good, right? And so I think Overall, what the research is trying to do is to categorize those forms of social connection. And so often researchers break up different kinds of ways that we could connect to other people in terms of three different categories. They call them intimate kind of friendships, relational friends, and sort of communal friends. And so the intimate one, it doesn't mean like intimate in a like romantic intimate sets. It means kind of, I think what Reshma is getting at. Like your Reiner Dye, my cruise, your crew, like the 3:00am Your everything. Exactly. Right. The relational friends are the ones that you like do stuff with, you know, so you might like grab a glass of wine, you might go see a movie and it's like a one on one, but they're not the 3am call in the same way. Gretchen, I think this is what you were getting at when you were saying that like when your kids move away, you realize a lot of people are in that relational category, but maybe not the intimate category. Right. But there's another domain that I think we often forget, which is a sort of communal or kind of community friends. And this is like your book club, like the crew of people you go to Pilates with or your church group. Right. Like this is like a group of people, parents in like your kids class, like the soccer moms that you see like, you know, on the field. Right. And those are sometimes the people that we can see. Most often, depending on what those like community events are, they might be our most frequent other friends. And they're really good for kind of having these shared values and these shared activities. But again, they're a little bit different than the other ones. You might not with the soccer mom, unless you take it to a new level. It's definitely not gonna be a 3am call. But it might not even be the go to the movie together.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But it could be the first step toward an intimate friend. It could be a starter, it might have the capacity or the possibility of going further. Even if it's not, then if you wanna build a friend, like Reshma was saying, it's hard to make, maybe that's a place to find new friends.

[Laurie Santos]

Totally. Right. Because you have to have some sort of connection with people to like move them from the categories. And I think it just takes some work.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Laurie Santos]

You have to be on the soccer field with the mom and be like, hey, do you want to get a coffee later outside the soccer field? Or do you want to go get a movie or share something together? And again, that feels vulnerable. It feels scary to almost ask because the person might be like no. Or I don't have time. And you'll just feel like, ah, I got rejected.

[Reshma Saujani]

Lori, where does your work friends go? Because that's the other thing I found. Like, I'm a workaholic, so I find that my work friends are now like my best friends. My teases me is like, it doesn't count if you pay them.

[Laurie Santos]

Yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Laurie Santos]

It's tricky. No, I think, I think, I think work friends can be in any of these categories. Right. You know, take the work friend that, like, you all go to the softball game together. Right. That might feel very communal. Right. If it's a work friend that you occasionally go out to get a drink for, but they don't really know any of your, you know, real intimate life or your big secrets. Right. That would probably be more relational. But there definitely work friends that are the ride or die besties that hear, you know, all this stuff. I. I definitely have had work friends that are my 3:00am call. Right.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And so I'm not sure that I think that those three categories are very helpful because it almost makes them feel like they're in a hierarchy. But I feel like it's almost more helpful to think about them as types of friends or the role they play. Like a childhood friend.

[Laurie Santos]

Yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

They know us in a way. They know our parents. They know our childhood dog, you know, even if now we're very far apart than them in life. There's something about the childhood friends. Laurie, you mentioned the couple's friends where, you know, you can go out on a double date. There's sort of a special kind of thing if you travel with people, and that's maybe not even that they're so intimate, but you would travel in the same way people that you know online.

[Laurie Santos]

Oh, yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Does that count, like, if you haven't met people in real life or like people that you've only seen on Zoom? You guys, I mean, what about parasocial relationships? I mean, I bet you all have people who consider you their parasocial friends. Plus, I do. And then I also have my own parasocial friends of people who I listen to. So, I don't know. I mean, what other kinds of friends am I missing?

[Laurie Santos]

No, I mean, I think you're totally right that it's super complicated. Although I'll push back on the idea that those three categories I gave are hierarchical. I think we kind of need all of them. Right. Like, I think you. I definitely have been in situations, and even during my burnout situation, I would describe being in this where I still had My, like, intimate friends. I had my besties that I could call at night, but I had nobody to go to yoga class with. I had nobody to go for a walk with.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, this has to go with near friends and far friends and. Reshmid, this is what you're talking about, is what about when somebody who was a near friend then becomes a far friend? Well, then that completely changes the energy of the relationship.

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, this is why I liked your categories, Lori, because it made me feel almost, like, better, right? Like, I think one of the things that I've had to contend with in midlife is that it's okay if friendships shift. They don't have to be somebody who's your intimate friend has to be your intimate friend forever. They can then become your relational friend. And that's. That doesn't mean that you failed. Because I think for women in particular, because we take our friendship so seriously, is that it's very hard when they fall apart. Right? And you're like, I feel like I did something wrong or I should have tried harder. And it's. It's different because it's unlike your parents. Like, no matter what, you're stuck with them.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Reshma Saujani]

Or your siblings. Right. It doesn't matter. Obligation, what happens to them, whether they turn into an alcoholic or become a raging bitch or, like, you know, I mean, didn't get this. Like, you're, like, stuck with them. Whereas with friendships, especially as you get older, I think people realize, well, I don't have to be in this toxic relationship. Like, I don't have to do this.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Have you managed severe strife in a friendship yourself, Reshma?

[Reshma Saujani]

I mean, most recently, I've had to contend with a potential breakup, which is the first time that's ever happened to me.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I've never.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, it's never happened. Happened to me before. But I think part of. Without going into the details right, but part of what I think I realized is that it's okay. And that sometimes people are going through things and you gotta allow there to be some distance. And that doesn't mean it's forever, and that's okay. You know, I. I think for a lot of us as women, we carry a lot of regret and we carry a lot of envy, a lot of what a shoulda coulda's, you know? And I think the older you get, you realize that, well, that might not happen for me. And I think that that oftentimes breeds a lot of anger. And I think that a lot of people are struggling, as my monk would say. Like, a lot of people are really suffering. And friendships used to be the way you healed. Right? Like, you remember that when you would go through a breakup and you'd be like, devastated and you just had to sit in a room with your girlfriends and like, drink a lot of wine and eat a lot of bad food and just cry and watch a movie and like, it just after a of doing that, you were like, you felt better. That's just French. It's just harder to do that these days because of all the commitments that you have in your life to really use friendship as a tool of healing.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, so maybe that's a good point, which is that we have to acknowledge that friendship looks different at different stages of life and not. And again, not feel like a failure if it doesn't look the way that it used to look. You know, if you're not staying up until 2am talking heart to heart with somebody, that doesn't mean that they're not a real true intimate friend the way they might have been.

[Laurie Santos]

Although I think we also have to get other people's definitions of friends because some of my friendship strife throughout the years has been realizing that, like, we're just on a different page with how we're defining friendship.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Like what? Like what?

[Laurie Santos]

Like, so I had this very close friend still. My very close friend. I won't use names, but she'll know I'm talking about her who lived near me in New Haven, like, worked near me at Yale. We were like, you know, besties, besties, tight. And for lots of reasons, she wound up taking a job really far away. And, you know, I was not just sad that my friend was moving away for all the reasons. I felt devastated. Like, I felt like there was like a break to the friendship and she couldn't understand this.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Like, you felt betrayed almost, or that.

[Reshma Saujani]

She took the job.

[Laurie Santos]

That she took the job and I knew the job was right for her. It was like, it was totally the right move. But I had this special sense of betrayal. And it was only through, like, a long conversation where we. We realized she was like, oh, wait, like, definitional to. Your idea of our friendship is that we hang out in person, see each other at our house, eat meals together, walk her dog together. And she was like, that's not in my definition, our friendship. We'll be just as good of friends if we do all that same stuff on the phone or over zoom or once a month. And that conversation, I think, really helped both of us because it was like, oh, under your definition, this isn't a friend breakup to you. In the same way, it's sort of feeling to me. And that just caused me to realize like, oh, we all have these different definitions. You know, if you don't, maybe your definition includes, like, if you don't spend your birthday with me, then we're not a good friend. Or if like, you know, if we don't give gifts to each other at Christmas or we don't celebrate our kids birthdays. I think we all have these kind of deep seated, intricate ideas of what matters for friendships that we haven't told our friends.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Laurie Santos]

So our friends sometimes wind up violating these without. Without realizing they're doing that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That is a really good point.

[Reshma Saujani]

And like life maturity, right? Because I think as you grow, you have more responsibilities. You gotta take care of your kids or if you have a partner or if you have a, like a, like a challeng. So it's like the time that you can spend is just different. And I think for some people, like, for me, I judge quality of time rather than like the length of time. Like I'm going on a girls trip with one of my friends tomorrow who like, lives in Atlanta. And maybe we talk on that. We see each other three times a year, but she is my best friend. Right. And we know that we're going to get together for 48 hours and like, it's going to feel like we spent a year together. And like, those are a lot of like, you know, the relationships that I have in my life where I don't have to spend all of this time, but it's the quality of time when we're together. We're like super into each other and super engaged and just not like nothing's changed.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I would say that I think scheduling is the biggest obstacle in my life to friendship, which is just the sheer nuisance of Are you free? Okay, maybe you live in another country. Are you free that I can call you while I'm on a call in Central park and we can talk by phone?

[Laurie Santos]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay. What? We got to manage the time to. Oh, we want to go to Atlanta on a girls trip. Yeah, I can't do this weekend. What about that weekend? No, this week. Oh, turns out I can't. Can we move it back a week? No, we can't.

[Laurie Santos]

Gretchen, it's like you are in my DMs right now.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes.

[Laurie Santos]

No, I'm turning 50 years old this year.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Amazing.

[Laurie Santos]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Congratulations.

[Laurie Santos]

But maybe you're going through the same thing, Reshma, which is like my college friends. Like I have this whole cohort of friends who are also turning 50 and we're like, wouldn't it be great if we could have a 50th birthday party all together? And literally our whole DM is like, what about June? No, my in laws are coming in June. Like I can't do that. It's like oh my God.

[Reshma Saujani]

And then you just give up.

[Laurie Santos]

You're like, that's exactly what's happened in my group thread is like no one's replied for like the last four days. And I think we're all just like oh my God.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, that's true.

[Reshma Saujani]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

Okay, now speaking of the question of understanding friends and maybe holding grace when people bring a different set of expectations or different understandings. Ok, so my four tendencies framework, which is a personality framework that divides people into upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels. And it has to do with whether you meet or resist outer and inner expectations. Outer expectations like a work deadline. Inner expectations like your own desire to keep a New Year's resolution. And I'm just going to go through this super fast. If people want to know more about it, they can just go to GretchenRubin.com quiz and take the quiz and find out if they're an upholder, a questioner, obliger, rebel. Learn all about it. But just for this, just the nutshell version is upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations. So they meet the work deadline. They keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. Reshma, I know you're an upholder and I'm an upholder. We're a small group. Small but mighty. A bigger group is questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they're turning everything into an inner expectation. So they have to know why. But if they know why and they understand why they can do something. Then there are obligers. This is the biggest group of people for both men and women. This is the largest group. Lori, you are proud member of team Obliger. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So they're really good at keeping their promises to other people, but they struggle to keep their promises to themselves unless they have that outer accountability. And then finally, rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. So these are the people who can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they will resist. And typically they don't tell themselves what to do. So they don't, like, put anything on the calendar. And the reason why I think the four tendencies is helpful for friendship is that I found that now that I understand the four tendencies, I'm much more understanding of how different people are different and bring a different energy into relationships. For instance, rebels often don't like to put something on the calendar. It makes them feel trapped. They don't like it. So I had a rebel friend who I would try to say something like, hey, do you want to go to a movie on Friday? And she would always just be really evasive. I'd be like, oh, there's this great play. Do you want to see it? And I'm like, does this person not really like me because they don't want to commit to me? But then I'm like, no, now that I know she's a rebel, it's much better to say something last minute, like, hey, I'm going to be in your neighborhood. If you're going to be around on Saturday afternoon, you want to grab a coffee, you can let me know. I'll just text you when I'm in. I'm outside your neighborhood door. Because then it's spontaneous and she can do whatever she wants. But so that helped me understand how not to be angry or resentful when people behaved in a certain way. So I don't know. As an obliger or an upholder, have you seen how this might cause conflict or explain things that you've experienced?

[Reshma Saujani]

Am I more likely to have a better relationship with someone who is just like me, an upholder, or no?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Probably. Yeah, right, because it's like you both are just executing. No, but obligers get along with everybody. Obliger's with Type O. They're the ones that get along the best with all three tendencies.

[Laurie Santos]

Yes, except I think, except, you know, I've always Like, wondered about, you know, the, like, scientific efficacy of the four tendencies.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, sure, I know. And Annie Murphy Paul, who studies personality frameworks. Yes.

[Laurie Santos]

But there is deep truth into one part of the Obliger personality type that you've talked about, which is this phenomena that you've called Obliger Rebellion, which is when the obligers have too many external demands on their time, sometimes they're just like, eff it, I'm out. I'm giving up on everyone. And definitely, I have been in that mode before. And the sad thing is, sometimes what has to give is stuff with my friends for which I'm really embarrassed. Right. I'm kind of like, oh, my gosh, I'm overwhelmed for everything. But I don't quit my podcasting job or not show up for my teaching gig. But that yoga session I was gonna have with a friend, hey, can we do that another time? I'll switch it up. Or that call that I know I was gonna put out for a friend who was grieving, that kind of falls by the wayside.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's interesting.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And I think this is a perfect example. If I'm your friend and I know you're Obliger, and I see Obliger Rebellion, I feel like the burning resentment and the burnout and the overwhelm happening. I can say things to you so that you don't feel like I'm putting pressure on you.

[Laurie Santos]

Yes, exactly.

[Gretchen Rubin]

You know, like, hey, you know, you've got so much going on. I know we talked about doing it this weekend, but maybe we should push it to next month when the dust settles.

[Laurie Santos]

Oh, my gosh, Gretchen, you just saying that. I feel like the weight on my chest was like, okay, that's great. Yeah. Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

Because you don't feel like it's personal. You don't feel like it's personal.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

And so for. I think for an upholder, I don't have those problems because I'm so disciplined and so scheduled that I'm like, I immediately think it's personal.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, right. Like, if you dropped the ball on me, why, you must have chosen.

[Reshma Saujani]

You must have not thought that I was. You must have looked through your calendar. I'm like, well, she's not important, so I'm going to cancel that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Or if somebody. If you say to a friend, oh, well, you know, I'm going to be free Saturday afternoon, five weeks from now at 2pm and somebody's like, well, I don't really want to commit. And you're like, what's your problem? Let's Put this on the calendar so that it happens. If you're important to me and I'm important to you, there's a place on the calendar for that. And other people are like, you're bananas for scheduling out your life. You know, five weeks in a month.

[Laurie Santos]

As someone who's close friends with a few different rebels that just.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, it doesn't work.

[Reshma Saujani]

It doesn't work. It doesn't work. So I guess in midlife, though, should we just make friends with people like us? Cause it's easier.

[Laurie Santos]

No. You get so much out of friendships with people who are different than you.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, and I'm married to a question, and it's super valuable because I always have his voice in my head being like, why are you gonna do that? Because as an upholder, my tendency is like, okay, we'll do. And I think it gives you a grace for understanding how people are just bringing a completely different perspective in. So then the last thing I wanna ask, and this is a really fun question. Do you have a try this at home suggestion for listeners? Is there something that a person could do as part of their ordinary day to either deepen existing friendships or build towards new friendships? Because we've talked about both, and you sort of have to maintain and cultivate both, which sounds like a lot of work and a lot of time, which we do not have.

[Laurie Santos]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But what are some simple, easy things that we can incorporate?

[Reshma Saujani]

I got one like, so my friend Tiffany Dufu taught me this. I think, you know, why not?

[Gretchen Rubin]

Tiffany, she's an obliger.

[Reshma Saujani]

I can see that. So she. Well, then this is an interesting story. So she was telling a story how she had, you know, she had a girls trip planned, and her daughter Kua said to her, oh, mom, you know, I need you this weekend.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Ooh. Okay, Lori, as an obliger, is that pushing all your buttons?

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, it's like, I need you this weekend. It's really important. And Tiffany thought about it and she looked at her and she said, no, I'm gonna go on my girls trip. Because if I don't show you that I'm gonna put myself first, then you are never gonna learn that that's important to do that. And so I think the take home that I would say to all of us is we all need to do that. Because it's often the girls trip that gets canceled. It's often the dinner with friends that gets canceled. It's often our friendships.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Reshma Saujani]

That take the backseat to, like, everyone else's needs. And we know. No, no, no. That when you die, the thing that mattered the most was your friendships and your relationship. So like that can't be in the back. So I think every time we feel that push and pull, pick friendship.

[Laurie Santos]

Yeah, love that. Love that suggestion.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And can you think of an example in your own life where you had to have that struggle in your own mind of. Part of me wants to keep working or buckle down or go to sleep.

[Reshma Saujani]

Early all the time. I have like a 5 and a 10 year old who are two boys who make me feel guilty every minute. I could be around them all day long. They're. Where are you going? I'm going to Miami with my girlfriend Deepa tomorrow. And my son pouted all the way to school when he realized that I was leaving the next day. So I think like mom, guilt is real and it is a constant exercise, you know what I mean? That I know that I have to go through. And one of the things though, it has taught me, though Gretchen and I've really been thinking about this. I remember I go to a conference and I would tell a story about that, that my son was upset that I was leaving, leaving. And the women in the room would say, well, don't worry, Reshma, because he's not going to remember. And I remember thinking to myself, but I'm going to remember.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

So I think it's really important to figure out what you want.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

And what makes you happy. And it was interesting, Laurie, as I was listening to you, I cancel other things before my friends. I need to be with friends. I need that girls trip, that dinner, that plate. Like I need my. My girl time.

[Laurie Santos]

Well, as Gretchen will tell you, oblige. A rebellion is not the most rational state to be in when you hit that point, unfortunately. But yes, yeah, yeah.

[Gretchen Rubin]

But it's interesting that you articulate it for yourself in that way. And I think that's helpful. Like my identity is, I am a good friend. I show up. And when I'm weighing this versus that, friendship prevails. Like I always say to myself when I'm trying to think of how to spend my precious time, energy or money, I should always try to spend it on relationships. And that's just like a heuristic that helps me. Like, should I pay to go to my college reunion and deal with the hassle of making the things or should I stay on that really tiresome text chain? Or like you were saying, Lori, are you the one that has to bear the awkwardness of the first. Wanna get a copy where you feel like, oh my gosh, this feels so silly. So that's. I think that's a really great thing. And I think just being really, really spelling that out for ourselves, being very explicit is very helpful. And how about you, Laurie? What would you say?

[Laurie Santos]

So mine that I've been really trying to act on myself lately is remembering that we're biased when it comes to, like, connecting with other people. Right. So I often am just going through the day and we'll have thoughts about friends. Like yesterday I was carrying a bag that a friend of mine picked up on her trip to Africa. It's this very pretty, like, blue, kind of like grocery bag thing. And I was just using it to carry something, and I just had a positive thought about my friend. Right, right. What we normally do is just keep those positive thoughts to ourself. But of course, I could have just like, text her and be like, hey, have your bag today. Still enjoying it, Just thinking of you.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Or like, just even sending a photo of you holding the bag.

[Laurie Santos]

Me with the bag. I'm still using it. Yeah. And so this is something I've tried to do a lot more when I have a positive thought about a friend, whether that's a memory or especially a gift that someone gave you, often you're still enjoying the gifts that someone gave you and noticing it, but you never, like, from remind people, you know, like.

[Gretchen Rubin]

A mug they gave you or something.

[Laurie Santos]

Yeah, exactly. And in fact, I did just this this week with a friend of mine who literally gave me a mug that I was like, I'm enjoying your mug this morning. And it caused a conversation with a friend I hadn't connected with. And she was like, oh, that's so nice to hear this morning because I'm right now sitting in palliative care with my father who's not doing well. And then I knew about, and had I not texted her about the mug, I wouldn't have known that situation. And so. So whenever you have an urge to give a compliment, a moment of gratitude, a memory thinking of you, just send the text, just put in the call, just drop it in the email. You feel like they won't notice. It won't matter to them. But there's literally studies on this that shows, no, it matters more than you think. It's less awkward than you think. It means more to the person than you think. Our biases mean we under reach out. But that moment of check in, especially that story, I wouldn't have known that something bad was happening in her life. And now, now I can check in and we can reconnect And I can be there to help in a way that I'm so happy I get to do that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right.

[Reshma Saujani]

I love that.

[Gretchen Rubin]

One way that I do that is I'll often, in an idle moment, go back. I'm always sort of interested in like, what was happening this day eight years ago or whatever. And it'll often surface a picture of a friend or something that we shared, and I'll just send it to them. And I usually just say flashback. I don't even. I don't even. I can't even be bothered to type a caption, you know, but again, I think it is the idea that you're present in someone else. Else's consciousness.

[Laurie Santos]

Yes.

[Gretchen Rubin]

They're thinking of you. They're remembering you. Or like, oh, some. The sequel to a movie you saw together, like something even from the news or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

Because people are going through things, so many things, and I think knowing that someone may be thinking about them, it's just. It can shift their whole day. So.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes, completely. Yeah. Well, and. And maybe that's a good thing to remember, which is we think about how the friendship strengthen us and make us happier. But then you also think, well, but they're being made happier. The friend in palliative care, you didn't even think of it, but you're making that person happier. And so when you're planning your trip to Atlanta, you're happier, but then your friend is happier too. And so it's easy to sort of think about how is this boosting my happiness? But of course, there's more than one person involved.

[Laurie Santos]

And usually your perspective is wrong. Right. Like when I'm thinking like, oh, I'll text my friend, because using her bag and really appreciating it, I'm thinking like, well, how's that gonna feel to me? But of course, she's on the other end and it's gonna hit her totally different. She's in the middle of some random Wednesday and whatever stress her, and she gets this happy text. Right. That's surprise. Which I didn't feel when I was planning it, but she feels it on the recipient end. And there's like, you know, just like this warm glow that people think about.

[Reshma Saujani]

It's beautiful.

[Laurie Santos]

This is something else that some of the research shows that I've always tried to take to heart. This is work by Nick Epley and his colleagues. He finds that when we're thinking about reaching out to someone, we tend to focus on what he calls our competency. Am I going to write the Right. Text. Do I have time to not just put, like, flashback and write the whole thing? Right. Am I saying it right? You know, that's what we focus on. But our recipient doesn't see any of that. They tend to just focus on the warmth of it. Like, it's out of nowhere. This person thought of me. It made me feel good. Right. And so sometimes our ability to do something nice for our friends gets stuck in the competency part.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes.

[Laurie Santos]

Here's just another example. I had a friend who is just. He and his wife just had a new baby, and I was like, oh, my gosh. It's been around since my friends were having newborns. Like, what do you do? Like, oh, you send food. Like, how do you send food? Or whatever. And I was all up in my head about, do you send lasagna? Do they like lasagna? Should I eat granola? I don't know. And then I was thinking back to Nick's research, and it was like, wait, they're not gonna think about any of that. They're not gonna analyze, like, that kind of lasagna. They're just gonna be like, oh, my gosh. Laurie, out of the blue, sent me this nice thing. That's so nice. And so the idea is, like, whenever you get an urgent urge to do something nice or to connect, don't overanalyze. They're not going to notice that. Just dive in and do it. However you do it. It will feel good to them.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. The other thing is, you guys are talking. I think it's also great role modeling for our kids. Like, both me and my husband, like, really value friendships. People are always in our house. You know what I mean? And it's good, especially when you see how much more isolated children are becoming now because of technology. And that when we're making the effort to go have dinner with people or go to the next game with somebody or go on vacation with somebody. It's just good role modeling, too.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Y. Yeah, no, they see that you have a book group. They see that you're going out with. Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. That you're going to birthday parties. You're having a birthday party.

[Laurie Santos]

It also just makes adult life look less miserable than when we're not, like, having fun with other people. I think a lot of times kids are like, man, adult life is, like, terrible. But, like, when they see us going on a trip to Miami with our girlfriends or having that book club, it's like, oh, it's much more palatable than I thought.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes, exactly. Well, listen, they this is so much fun. Lori Reshma thank you for talking friendship with me. I feel elevated just having this conversation.

[Laurie Santos]

Thanks so much for having us on the show.

[Reshma Saujani]

This was so much fun and we're new friends now.

[Gretchen Rubin]

We're new friends now. Yay.

[Laurie Santos]

Miami trip next week.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That's right. That's right. Let's do it. Well, we hope you're feeling happier after this episode. Remember, the best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago. The second best time is now.

[Reshma Saujani]

Social distancing slows the spread of coronavirus.

[Laurie Santos]

So we should all stay home to lower the risk for everyone. More [e-mail] let's all do our part because we're all alone together. Brought to you by the Ad Council Want more from your favorite Lemonada Media podcasts? While supporting the shows that help make life suck less, subscribe to Lemonada Premium today. As a subscriber, you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like never before heard interactions, behind the scenes moments, bonus episodes, and so much more. It's easy to sign up no matter what podcast app you use on Apple. You can just click the Lemonada logo in the Apple podcast app and hit subscribe. For all other podcast apps, head to Lemonada supportingcast FM to subscribe. That's Lemonada supportingcast FM.