B (3:51)

You are accurate? Yes. I'm 43, I have two teenagers, I have a husband, husband, a dog, a cat, a job, a community that I'm responsible to parents, sibling and in laws and all the things. And so I feel both incredibly blessed and privileged to have such a big posse as well as I feel the crunch of trying to balance my resources appropriately so that I don't burn out in any one location.

A (4:25)

And when you think about resources, is it like time? Like where do you feel like the.

B (4:32)

Yeah, that's, you know, we have this sort of academic term, resources. And essentially a resource is anything you use to get something done. So for me, that definitely is my time, my energy, my motivation, the number of words I can talk about in a day, my body's energy before I just collapse. But it's also my finances, it's also my mental capacity. And so I use all of those things to try to be good at all of my different roles. And I'm, you know, moderately successful in any one of those spaces on any given day.

A (5:10)

Yeah, yeah, it's so funny. It's like I really feel it. I have a five year old, a ten year old, a two year old bernadoodle and a husband. And I really feel it, like at the end of the night when everyone's like, mom, mom, mom, right? And I want so desperately to like get in my bed, you know what I mean? Take a CBD, gummy and a magnesium, maybe get 15 minutes of like the book that I wanna Read. Right. And pray and go to bed. And it's like, I just. That I never get that right because there's so many other people wanting my resources.

B (5:44)

Absolutely. There's so many people who want something from you. And the good news is it's because they love you and because they think that you're good at your job at momming or wifing or daughtering. So it's wonderful to be needed and wanted, but there are a lot of things that people want from us that we are very sure we could offload to someone else. Right. And so it's. It's hard to be needed and wanted for everything. To make every decision to be on all the time. And that, you know, leads us to feel like burnout. And that can really feel like it's some sort of personal failing if we can't stay positive and enjoy every single moment of these family members wanting us.

A (6:29)

Totally. And we're gonna add another dimension, which is why I wanted you on the show, being a daughter. Right. One more thing. So right now, for example, I'm in this moment where I'm struggling with the good daughter thing. We're gonna go see my parents this weekend in Chicago. It's the Bears Rams game. My dad's, like, a huge Bears fan. You know, my. My sister got him tickets. I don't like football. I don't really watch it, but she's like, you gotta come, you gotta come. Turns out it's gonna be 15 degrees. You know, I mean, game got moved from Saturday to Sunday, and the last fucking thing I wanna do is go to the Bears game. Okay? Yeah, but you're right. It's like, it's this pressure to be this good daughter, you know, I mean, and, like, show up and do the thing, you know? You're a psychologist and a daughter. When did you first realize and feel these, like, two identities were colliding for you? Personally?

B (7:22)

I remember feeling like there was a really big pain point when I had young children. And I will say that I was raised or felt like all my life I was such a good little girl. I was so loving and attentive to my parents, but especially my mom. And then I remember in my early 30s, there was a situation that happened where I thought something was right for my son, but my mom thought something different was the right thing to do. And I had this, like, freak out moment. Like, I had to be unplugged and re plugged in again because I had to reboot because I didn't know how to make that decision. Between what I felt like as a parent, my son needed and what my mom needed. And I'm going to be real honest with you, it was unpleasant. It was a difficult pivot to decide I've got to parent first and daughter second. But it doesn't mean that my desire to be a good daughter ever goes away, even if it's just slightly in the background.

A (8:26)

Wait, okay, so, Alison, was this the first time you collided with, like, doing something that you wanted to do versus what your mother wanted you to do? Because I feel like I've had this with my mother since I was, like, 12.

B (8:36)

I can't say it's the first time, but I will say it stands out to me as huge, like, a huge identity issue. Now, my sister. I have an older sister, and she. She would probably tell you that hers started when she was 15, but I really was like this good little soldier for so long, even when I was getting married and moving away from home. And maybe it's because my mom kind of gave me a little bit more room to. To be me. But when there was finally this clash that I really felt deep in my core, it is now burned into my memory as. As this important moment.

A (9:15)

So what did that mean for you? So did that shift the way you behave, Shift what you were writing about, Shift what you were saying to your clients? What did that. Like, awakening. Like, I have these moments as an activist and a writer. Like, I see something like I'm seeing it for the first time, and then it leads me into this kind of body of work. So what did it.

B (9:32)

What.

A (9:32)

What did that aha do for you?

B (9:35)

That aha moment was really pivotal for me in thinking about agency. And agency means choice. It means our ability to decide. And there were so much about family life that I had taken for granted. And. And for me, that was because I really thought my mom was wise. She's still wise, but I really thought she had a lot of wisdom and generally whatever she thought was kind of probably the right way to do things. And it was in this moment where I realized my own wisdom and my own choice. And. And that being different from what my parent expected me to be was actually a place of honor and that I could make a flourishing life. And we were two different people. This is a good, good thing in terms of, like, therapy and family therapy. And I will tell you, I haven't had much therapy over the years, you know, thinking, how do we practice independence from our parent and not enmeshment? And I was really going down the wrong path of Constantly trying to please my parent instead of pleasing me first. And so it really set me on this path of thinking, how do women actively show up in our families, not just as wives, not just as parents, not just as, you know, a neighbor, but how do I show up as a daughter? And how does that choice and that agency impact all these people around me?

A (11:03)

Oh, my God. You're, like talking my language right now. Because this is a lot of what my husband and I talk about in couples therapy. He's on your side. So what is the difference between enmeshment and codependence? And then secondly, what was the role that your parents or your mother may have created in creating this enmeshment and codependence? And is that generational?

B (11:27)

There's. Yeah, there's so much there to unpack. You really hit the heart of it, Reshma.

A (11:31)

Yeah, I know. I know. Okay. I think about a lot about this. Yep.

B (11:34)

When I think about enmeshment, an important way that I think about it and has been explained to me. And I should also mention my mom is a marriage and family therapist.

A (11:44)

Yep.

B (11:44)

But she went back during my adolescence to get that training because of some of the messed up stuff going on in our family life. So when I see healthy families, I can go back just one generation and see a lot of unhealthy patterns that she worked really hard to change, and I'm working hard to change. But enmeshment is like, I'm over here, I'm in my circle, you're over there, you're in your circle. Enmeshment is when our circles overlap. And I can't be happy unless you're happy that I have to go check with your circle to be like, is this okay? And I think that codependency and enmeshment have some similarities. But enmeshment is really this. Behaviorally, I can't act without knowing how to. You will act and react. I pre think of what your reactions will be. And then I do or don't do things based on that. And it's really unhealthy because I can't get anything done by myself. And it's very difficult to do relationships successfully, like a partnership or to parent your own children without redoing that unhealthy pattern.

A (12:53)

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B (16:09)

Unrivaled, a show where we give you all you need to know from unrivaled and more. This season we're talking to some of the best athletes. I'm trying to watch my language. You good be you.

A (16:17)

It's unfiltered. That's what we're here for.

B (16:19)

And coaches in women's basketball like Paige Beckers and Leroux. Hey, it's Paige.

A (16:23)

Hi, it's Lee.

B (16:24)

And celebrity Unrivaled fans about games news. All for the fans to learn more about our journey and the folks who make Unrivaled the great league it is.

A (16:32)

I'm super unfiltered.

B (16:33)

Aerie's gonna be super unfiltered. Cause I'm going to force her to be. We'll also be talking to you and answering your questions. So tune in every Thursday and and.

A (16:40)

Find us on social and all your favorite podcast platforms. This is where I think we. A lot of women see it is like when they get married if their partner has not emancipated himself, you know, I mean, from his family. It's very hard to have a healthy marriage because you're constantly having to choose between the two. Yeah, right.

B (17:07)

We want more of a Venn diagram of our circles overlapping with our partner, our romantic partner, than with our parent. Right. And so if we stay in this sort of childhood behavior of this dependency on our parent and what they need and how they feel and if they're upset, we fail to launch. We fail to become individuals who are okay standing up for ourselves and saying, I'm okay even if you're not okay. And that's something I need even in my marriage because I need to make sure that I'm always keeping myself 100, you know, even if the other person isn't okay. Because we. We can't go down together.

A (17:45)

So two things. So, like, how does that happen? Like, how do I know right now as a parent that I am not creating that circumstance for my children?

B (17:54)

Well, it's really important to notice where you're at right now, Reshma. Your kids are dependent on you naturally, by, by. By nature, by law, by what they can physically do. And so some of these patterns are more important as we think of adults and we think of independent households, finances. But one of the ways that we work on that in ourselves and with our kids is that we honor what I'm interested in and what I like, and I learn how to be okay with sitting in the problem when you're not okay with how I behave.

A (18:30)

Give me an example, like a common example of this.

B (18:33)

If your kids are. You're out and about and you're being on, and your kids are like, stop it. That is so embarrassing. I don't like. I mean, I'm going to be laughing sock at school. As a parent, you can say to them, I am me and you are you. And what I do does not reflect on you. You are a separate individual from me. And you help them to understand that while we have shared overlap in resources or time spent together, we are each individuals who are each responsible for ourselves. And I don't borrow the way that you behave as a reflection on me. And you teach your kids to be okay with that discomfort. They cannot change you. They cannot fix you. They could certainly request, but you may or may not give in to that request. And that's kind of what it's like to be my child is. I'm constantly acting up, and then having a teenager be like, cut it out. And then I think about it, and I decide whether I agree with them or whether I'm just going to keep doing me.

A (19:36)

Yeah.

B (19:37)

Because I'm an independent person.

A (19:38)

Do you find more women fall into this pattern of having to be a good daughter than men?

B (19:45)

Well, I think that women thinking about how to be a good daughter is. Is. Is just part of our cultural milieu. Right. Because we're, as women, we're always asked to think about what other people are thinking of us.

A (19:58)

Yep.

B (19:59)

Am I a good woman? Am I a good wife? Am I a good citizen? Am I a good housekeeper? Am I a good cook? Am I good at typing? I mean, it could be literally anything. But that's part of sort of this problematic patriarchal society we live in. And part of disentangling from that as daughters is that we have to take a Look at it, get some clarity, and think, what do I think a good daughter is in the one and only family I'm involved in? Not what is a universal good daughter for everyone, but what is a good daughter to me, that makes my life full of purpose that I could be proud of. And how do I get to acting like that person and nobody else?

A (20:40)

Yep. You write about how, like, there's these invisible rules daughters carry and rules that they never consciously agreed to. What are some of the most common ones?

B (20:50)

The most common rules that we think about are that we need to be doing more for our parents and more with our parents. So women typically are telling me in my research that they feel like they're supposed to be around more, even when their parents don't really need them. Their parents could even be working, and they have a partner and they even have more money. But the daughter's thinking, I'm supposed to be around more. And then even if you're around a lot, you make up this extra rule like, I should treat them more. I should buy them things or take them on trips or give them more access to the grandchildren. And so the. The sort of rule is more, more, more that I'll be good enough if I give more, even more to my parents, because there's this quid pro quo. I have to do that because of what they did for me as a child, and I'm sort of paying them back. It's this weird economic mindset that we have, especially in the United States, where we think of being part of family as transactional, and we don't recognize that we could just be in a family and they love us.

A (22:01)

Yeah. It's so funny you say that, Allison, because I felt like I was listening to. That's very much in our Indian culture jam, saying that, like, you are obligated to take care of. Of your parents. That's, like, part of what it means in our culture, you know? And so do you feel like that's more of a, you know, Eastern, you know, other cultures thing, or is that more of an American thing? Because I actually, honestly, I find sometimes the way people in this country take care of their elderly parents is very disturbing.

B (22:28)

Right.

A (22:29)

I think we actually need to really have more values about the importance of taking care of our elderly than less.

B (22:35)

It's a great example of different cultural mindsets and experiences. They're all valid. They just are from where we come from. And so what you're describing is an example of collectivism versus individualism. The United States is typically an individualistic Society where we say to people, head out on your own bootstraps, reach your dreams, make the money, go out independently. Now, again, this is more for men, but it still applies more to American women than it might elsewhere around the world. And there's no right or wrong way to do daughtering. All daughtering is good daughtering. It's like saying you want to have a bikini body, put on a bikini and go to the beach. Now you have a bikini body. So it's not just that there's one right way to do it, it's that it's a conversation and a negotiation with our family within our cultural mindset.

A (23:34)

What I really loved about what you, Sarah, is talking about in your book is that we become the default caregivers. That's absolutely true. I mean, you saw this during the pandemic, who was there endlessly trying to get appointments for their parents, the daughters and even the daughter in laws, right? And so there is this expectation that you have to do it, you should do it. That's what it means to be a good daughter. And there's no real respect or appreciation for it. We talk about being a bad mom, right? But there isn't even a bad daughter meme because you're expected to be a good one. You know what I'm saying? We haven't even created space for what the alternative could be.

B (24:10)

Yeah, Covid really showed a lot of us what would be expected of daughtering or what we might need to do, or what we'd never even thought about doing because it brought this idea of illness and need to the forefront, even though many of us felt like, okay, I'm too young for this. I thought I'd have another decade or two until I was asking if you'd gotten your shots and worn your mask and stayed home. And in many ways that shock to the system was really healthy because it gave clarity. And women are able to course correct and say, do I want to fall into this repeat zone of what I have seen my aunts, my mom, my grandmother doing? And therefore my mind thinks it's natural, but it's not actually natural. It's trained through our social system. And we have a decision about how much or in what ways we show up to care for people. So I think it's important that we redefine what care looks like. And it's not just doctor's visits and driving someone to the pharmacy. It is calling to ask about their day at sitting and watching a golf.

A (25:16)

Game together, taking them to the Bears game in 15 degree weather. That's right.

B (25:20)

And I bet. I bet when you're there, you're going to keep your mouth shut. Sometimes when you'd rather not, you'd rather say something. And that type of emotional control is a gift that you give to your family so that you can all enjoy being together.

A (25:36)

I love what you're saying, too. I've also realized with my parents, they love my kids, they love my sister's kids, but they also love playing bridge with their friends, and they love, you know what I mean, going on walks. And it's. It's almost like, in being with each other, like, they don't want to travel to New York or Georgia on the holidays. And, like, I think you're right. I think they're so long. There's a sense of, of course they do, and of course they want to see us. And. And now it's like, I have become more open and to, like, what do you want to do? Right. And like, also taking that personally because I think that there's this. As much as I just told you about the Bears game, I feel this pride in, like, I'm taking my dads to the game, and I'm such a good daughter. I took him to his Italy for his 80th birthday. Like, there's a pride that you also get in, like, being a good daughter.

B (26:23)

Yeah. That's what I call the difference between our eudaimonic happiness and our hedonic happiness. Okay, so hedonic happiness is, like, the stuff that we think this is super fun, and we. We laugh and we feel this just joy bubbling up inside us in the moment. Right. Like, if you were going to a place that you really enjoyed, maybe that's the movies or dancing or laying in your bed, you're like, ah, you know. But eudaimonic happiness is this form of lifelong happiness. I feel like I'm a good person. I've done enough. I've given what I could. And while the Bears game, 15 degrees may not be my jam, I have this other part of me, though, that is very pleased, very proud, very happy, because these things add up over a lifetime, and at the end, I'll be able to say, I did enough. I tried. I was there. So you kind of let go of the junkie part. It's like being a homeowner and saying, well, I have to take out the trash. Like, in order to have a nice, beautiful home that smells good, I have to take out the trash. So I have to do unpleasant things sometimes in order to have this bigger form of happiness. And as daughters, we don't tap into that enough and we don't talk to each other about it enough. That's. That's what the book is for, to get some language around, how to talk about the many forms of daughtering, and then to share that with other people so then we can begin to calibrate what it means to us and make changes if we want to. Hello, I'm James Corden, and on my new show, this Life of Mine, I sit down each week with some of the most fascinating people on planet Earth. From Dr. Dre to Julianne Moore to David Beckham to Sam Cynthia Erivo to Martin Scorsese to Jeremy Renner to Denzel Washington to Kim Kardashian. We talk about the people, places, possessions, music, and memories that made them who they are. These are intimate conversations full of stories that you've never heard before. This Life of Mine premieres October 21st, wherever you get your podcasts.

A (28:37)

So you talk in your book about boundaries. What does your book get right about boundaries that other books get wrong when it comes to parents?

B (28:45)

What's really important about boundaries that I describe in my book is that you think about what you can achieve at a reasonable pace. So many books, when they talk about boundaries, it makes it seem like once this is in place, things are just going to switch, like a light switch or that you can go to your parents, state a boundary, and they'll be fine with it and it will just start working right. Like, you know, putting up a fence between two houses and boop, there it is. One day, it's there. What I recommend is noticing that these things take time. It's like putting on a pair of braces. It's going to take three years to make those changes. It's slow, but every move in the right direction will make a difference. It can stick. It can make big, important changes that are not just for you and your parent, but for the ripple effect of generations. And so putting boundaries into place is worth it, even though it's a real challenge.

A (29:41)

Yeah, it's hard. There's a lot of guilt about it. You discussed daughter rage and matrophobia, the fear of becoming our mothers. Ooh, I feel that one. You know, how could recognizing these strong emotions kind of be this catalyst for positive change rather than feeling guilty about it?

B (29:59)

Yeah, we've got to get more examples of different types of daughters, you know, and I think with the storyline of where we're talking about eldest daughters and eldest daughter syndrome on the social media, we're seeing some More types of daughters emerge. You know, Taylor Swift is telling us what she's like as an eldest daughter, and there's a lot of angst there. And so some of us are doing the things we need to do in our family. We still want to be in a family, but we're annoyed, we're angry, we're frustrated, and yet most of us are not trying to go no contact. We're not trying to opt out. We just like to optimize it. Another one is one daughter told me that she's a bully daughter, and she said that her whole family jokes that she bullies everyone into everything. And then she laughed about it because she's happy to be in that spot. I think of myself sometimes as the porcupine daughter. I'm poking my parents to do stuff they don't want to do, to talk about stuff they don't want to talk about, to share memories and stories from the past that they wanted covered and I want uncovered. And I can be really proud of being the prickly daughter we don't all have to share one sweet, happy, you know, Monica.

A (31:15)

Oh, I love that. I love that. One of the most powerful parts of your book for me was how you really legitimize resentment without shaming it. Why was that important for you to name as an emotion?

B (31:30)

Yeah. Women are told so often that we just need to keep doing it all and that if we can't do it all or don't want to do it all, that we're not womanly. And as daughters, we feel like, well, I must not be daughterly or I'm not good at daughtering if I don't take on everything I see. And I think it's a trap for smart women because smart women think like CEOs and see the problems before they occur. And we're not just addressing the hiccups that are happening, we're removing roadblocks all the way down the road and taking care of those. And the biggest problem is that we're not getting any credit for that. You know, when the car accident doesn't happen, nobody says, oh, good, she solved that roadblock. You solve the roadblock, nobody sees it, no car accident happens, no credit is given. And we begin to feel like all of our smart hard work, our resource draining activities aren't worth anything, that we're not worth anything. And so we have to name it, talk about it, share it, ask for credit for it, ask for thanks so that we can see that our hard work matters.

A (32:40)

Kind of extending on that. How do you how can women tell the difference between, like, healthy responsibility and over responsibility?

B (32:47)

Sure. So some of that's going to be individual. Right. And I encourage women to understand that your family is unique to you and your context. So right now I may be very busy at work or very busy with a child who has a need or something like that, or my house burned down and I'm taking care of that so I have less availability for my parent. In contrast, some of you may have parents that are currently in crisis and that could be a financial crisis or a health crisis or an emotional crisis because their sister is arguing with them. And so you have to imagine that there's times to extend your resources and there's times to pull back. So thinking of the lifespan and that our giving toward our parent is going to go up and down and we can't sustain the constant giving at a high level at all times for decades, we have to also sometimes protect ourselves and our own energy.

A (33:43)

Yeah. Like you introduced this concept of microdose daughtering. Like, what does that mean? Does that mean, like, for example, should you call your parents at least once a week?

B (33:51)

I really do think that it's helpful if you, if you're a logical daughter like me, to make almost like a rubric for yourself. And part of making that rubric, I have asked my parents, how often do you want me to visit? How, how often do you want me to call?

A (34:03)

Do they answer that?

B (34:04)

Oh, yeah, yeah, we've talked about that. A But again, I researched this for a living. So we've.

A (34:10)

My family, right? Yeah, yeah.

B (34:12)

But one of the things that I do for microdosing daughtering is I call my mom on the 10 or 15 minutes I have between events. I did this week, I went to go pick up my daughter from volleyball and I called my mom in the car and the first thing I say when I get on the call is, I have 15 minutes, I'm going to pick up my daughter. And maybe she'd prefer one to two hour visits, but I don't have that in me. And over time, she's come to understand this is lightning round daughtering. And if we do lightning round daughtering, I'm able to do it more frequently. So you're going to get maybe shorter but more frequent phone calls.

A (34:52)

So you do this every day maybe for 15 minutes or every other day.

B (34:56)

My house, it's once a week, if I'm lucky. And each of us is going to set a different boundary or a different idea with their parent, you know, versus if she was in A time of need. Now, my. My mom has my dad. She has her health, she has her independence. So right now she doesn't have a great need.

A (35:11)

She doesn't need to talk to you every day, right?

B (35:13)

That's right. But you know what we do instead? We Snapchat, we send each other Instagrams, we text on multiple family group chats that have smaller or bigger amount of people. We see each other, you know, a couple times a quarter. And I think there's going to be a different amount either. Culturally, I want women to know that I understand. Proximity, geography, and especially economics really contribute to how much we can do for and with our parents. And that's reasonable. That's okay. If you don't have the money to go see your folks all the time or take them on a cruise. Just because you saw somebody do that on Instagram doesn't mean all of us daughters are doing that. And so we have to give ourselves a pass.

A (35:55)

Is there a difference between being a good son and a good daughter, or is it the same?

B (36:00)

No, it's absolutely different. Because now I have to say, I don't know. Men bashing. Here I have a wonderful partner who does a lot of good sunning, who has a mom who has health needs, and so he shows up for her like crazy. But the thing is that men are not expected by society to do it. And the other thing is that when men show up for their families, they get a lot of praise, they get a lot of kudos. Like what? A good boy who loves his mom, the prince.

A (36:29)

Yep.

B (36:30)

And so those are things that if we say this is the way culture is, we have to recognize we're members of culture too. We're members of society. So if we want to see those things change, we have to be part of the change, even though it's micro changes. And one way that we're changing things around here is my husband and I talk a lot about caring and supporting families and. And I enlist him and both of my children in doing my daughtering effectively. I can get frustrated and fussy pretty quick with my parents. And so I have these on call. People who swoop in and help out when they see that thing happening. Because ultimately, I don't want to be prickly porcupine, so they help me help the relationship. And we're not daughtering in a vacuum. We're not daughtering alone. And we're not only daughtering when our parents are old or sick or even when they're right in front of us. We're daughtering every day, all the time, in these really small, subtle ways that we need to recognize.

A (37:39)

Yeah, there's a lot of conversation about no contact with family. It's like controversial. Like, people have real feelings about it on both sides. How do you feel like your book fits into that conversation?

B (37:53)

Great question. Okay, so if there's a continuum of closeness and intimacy between parent, adult parents and children, I think a lot of people are over here on this far end where they think other people have it perfect. Other people are very close, other families. It's easier, they do it better. Okay. And I think that's kind of a myth. But many of us are striving for that with our good daughter. Then we have down here, which is trauma, narcissism, abuse, drugs, really messy stuff. And the fact is that that's a small percentage of families on a population level, or if Oprah's looking for speakers to, to talk on her show, she's still going to find hundreds or thousands or ten thousands of those, but they're still the minority. Most of the women that I have interviewed, hundreds of women over the years, are in the messy middle. We're not perfect, but we're also not traumatized. We want to be part of our family. We don't want to give up. And so my book is positioning us where we can hang on a little longer and do it a little better. And that starts by loving ourselves as a daughter and thinking, I'm already enough and I need to give myself a break. And then I can also make changes with my family so that we can be together and we can enjoy each other for decades.

A (39:19)

That was incredible. Thank you for that wisdom and it was so wonderful talking to you. I'm so excited for all of our listeners who read your book. It's fantastic. And it's something that I'm going to actually give to my sister, too. Good daughtering.

B (39:32)

I love that. Here it is. Good Daughtering. Bright pink.

A (39:35)

Thank you, Alison.

B (39:36)

Thank you, Reshma.

A (39:45)

Thank you so much to Dr. Allison Alford for this thoughtful and generous conversation. Her book Good Daughtering comes out February 17, and it's an essential read for anyone who's navigating the complexities of adult daughterhood. I hope that this conversation helps you see your relationship with your parents and yourself a little more clearly before you go. Thank you for listening to my so called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content you can't hear anywhere else. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com My so called Midlife is brought to you by Moms First. Come see what we're all about at Mom's First. I'm your host and executive producer, Reshma Sajani. Our senior producer is Katie Eckstek Cordova, our producer is Beth Rowe, and our sound engineer and editor is Mary Kelly of Sweater Weather. Our theme music was composed by Ivan Khuraev and performed by Ivan with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Scheduling support from Cindy Cook. Sales and distribution is by Lemonada Media. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review, and let us know what you're doing in Midlife. Follow My so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership and be sure to follow me rashmistajani and moms first on Instagram, LinkedIn, and substack. See you next week. Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads?

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