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A
Today's episode is supported by what Should I Do with My Money? An original podcast from Morgan Stanley. This podcast pairs real people with experienced financial advisors. You'll hear candid conversations from people just like you with questions just like yours. Questions like can I retire early? Like really early. How do I leave a financial legacy for my special needs child? Menopause is making me feel wacky and it's shifting how I think about money. Help. These conversations can get emotional, but they're always practical. I checked out the episode about money, motherhood and menopause on what should I do with my money? And I loved hearing from other women who are also committed to setting their kids up for success and hearing how menopause plays into work and money and just everything. It's so on brand with what we talk about every week on the show. Search for what Should I Do with My Money in your podcast player. We'll also include a link in the show Notes. Thank you to what Should I Do with My Money? And Morgan Stanley for their support. There's one thing that all people on earth have in common. We move through the world in a human body. Bodies ache, they bleed, they desire, they hold the stories of our lives. International Planned Parenthood Federation or IPPF is sharing some of those stories from around the world. Read them now@ippf.org everybody lemonade hey midlifers. Just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of My Soul Cloud Midlife Ad free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to an exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Feel Better with David Duchovny, and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show and Apple Podcasts make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. Welcome to my so called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. So so much of midlife is about trying to just hold it all together when everything feels like too much. Work, marriage, kids, school, paperwork, aging parents. I mean the group chat you've been ignoring, every piece of it demands something from us. So my guest today, she's got a name for that. It's called the Squeeze. And it feels a lot like, as she will explain, being stuck in the metaphorical Amtrak bathroom Corrine Lowe is an economist at the Wharton School who studies how marriage, gender, and work collide. And she's lived it, too. In her new book, Having It All, Corrine breaks down why so many women feel like the math of modern life just doesn't add up. Because even when we do everything right, the degrees, the career, the family, something just feels off. The numbers don't balance. So we talked about what it means to rebuild when the equation no longer works. About the years she spent trying to make the impossible schedule make sense, about the moment when she realized she was running on fumes, and how she designed a second act, a second marriage, a life that actually reflected her values. This one's about the radical act of getting your needs met, of putting yourself first. Corinne Lowe, welcome to my so called Midlife. I love to start on the show and talk about midlife mindset. And so for some people who are in their midlife, they're like, this is amazing. And some people are like, this sucks. So where are you?
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I am having, like, a brand new midlife because I talk about this in the book. Like, I was in this period that I call the squeeze, where things were, like, really, really hard, and then I made a lot of changes. And, like, things are good and things are hard because I decided to have a baby and a book baby at the same time. But I am in a period where I'm getting my needs met and where I'm remembering that I'm a human being and a person, which I had lost sight of. And so I feel like I'm. I'm good.
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A
I love that. Okay, I want to get to the book because I just loved it. So wait, first, I want you to introduce yourself. Right, so you're an economist who studies family, gender, and inequality. And for people who might be meeting you for the first time, can you just tell me a little bit about your work and, like, what led you to focus on marriage and gender norms in the first place?
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B
Yeah, so I'm an economist who teaches at Wharton at University of Pennsylvania, and I have been studying this my whole career. And so I was interested in women from when I first started doing my PhD in economics, and I actually started studying women's equality kind of internationally. So I did some work in Zambia. I have a paper in India, I have a paper in Kenya. But I was talking about these issues with my advisors, and I was interested in fertility for women and the way that, you know, fertility was tied to economic security in some developing countries. And my advisors were like, yeah, but that's true in the US Too. When you look at, you know, for women who are, you know, older and are, you know, have focused on their careers and then like, marriage is really hard because, you know, they. There's this short, fertile window. And so I started studying that in the US and found that, in fact, marriage outcomes were tied to what I called reproductive capital, to our fertility. That was kind of my first entry into that. And I was at the time, like, when I say, like a smugly fertile, like, you know, late 20s person, right. Who wasn't yet facing these issues in my own life. But I'm studying these career family trade offs. And then I found myself thrust into the middle of it when I had kids myself.
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A
I wanna talk about. I mean, I. First of all, Corinne, I loved your book. I loved it.
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B
I loved it.
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I loved it. You can see all my tabs. I loved it. I wanna talk about how your personal experience led you to write this book. And I love. There's this line in your book where you say you are navigating yourself out of the metaphorical Amtrak bathroom. Tell us what you mean by that.
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B
Well, I have to tell you about the literal Amtrak bathroom first. For people who haven't read.
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A
Which we've all been in.
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B
Yeah. Which was that I had this two and a half hour commute from New York to my job in Philadelphia. I work at University of Pennsylvania and I had a baby. And so now I pump in my seat because I have like the mobile pumps, but I didn't have that.
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A
I just, I'm like, don't give a fuck. I'm like, here it is. Like, if you're gonna, like, not make it possible for us to do this.
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B
But I. There was like track work. So I thought I was gonna make it home for bedtime. Not gonna make it home for bedtime. So I have the pump out in the Amtrak bathroom and I'm cr. Crying because I'm gonna miss bedtime. And I have all these feelings about that because I feel like I don't get any time at my job or any time with my kid because of this commute. And I just was like, nothing is adding up right now. Like, I thought that this was gonna work. And my life kind of worked before I had kids and the commute kind of worked and my marriage worked before I had kids, and now nothing is adding up.
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A
Yeah. So you're basically. I wanna. Just rewind a little bit. So you're. You're teaching at Wharton, you're living where in New York. You're living in New York. So everybody wants to live in New York. Even though you got this big job.
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B
In Pennsylvania, we had a step kid that we were raising whose mom was in the New York area. So actually, like, we were there for the valid reason of, like, trying, you know, to make things work for my kid. But as time went on, I sort of reflected that. Like, I was saying yes to things that worked for other people in the household that didn't work for me, you know? And I. I say to women, I'm like, you're a member of the household. Like, if it's not working for you, it doesn't work for the family. And I forgot that.
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A
Right. And there's something about having a kid that makes that really clear, that you're sitting there in the Amtrak train. You, at that time are, like, contributing as significantly as your partner, and you're like, why am I doing all of this? And so in your book, you write about how marriage has become a luxury good. Can you break that down?
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B
So marriage kind of used to have one arrangement, which was that men earned money and women, you know, produced at home. And that arrangement meant financial security for a lot of women. And so it was like most women would want to enter into marriage to have access to that financial security. And then that's where reproductive capital comes in, because that's what you're bringing to the table in addition to home production. Right. So it's a good bargain on both sides. And then you have the divorce revolution, where it makes marriages actually very risky for women because this deal of one person earns a salary and one person does home production. It doesn't work so well if the marriages start breaking up at really high rates, because then the biggest asset you've invested in is his career, and he walks out the door with it. Right. And the courts do not make up for that income sharing. They don't. They're not going to give you back that level of financial security. So a lot of women actually ended up really poor in the divorce revolution. Yep.
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A
Divorce was actually the worst. Right. And it's. It's actually still true. Like, men actually end up richer.
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B
It's still true that divorce makes women poor. So then they tell their daughters, Right. And their nieces and whoever, right. You've got to make sure to protect yourself. Don't let this happen to you. Make sure you can always earn a living. So women enter the labor force in these big rates, and now women have their own paychecks. They don't need a man's paycheck Right. And because, because marriage is kind of insecure, you're not really going to get the benefits of the commitment if you don't have assets as a household, because assets are the thing that are going to be divided by the court in case of divorce. But if you're a family that's kind of living paycheck to paycheck, there's nothing that's going to be divided. There's no commitment value in marriage anymore. And so what we see in the data is that it's wealthier, high income people who are still getting married and, and in fact are still pursuing some measure of specialization, which means like she does a little bit more at home, more with the kids, is more likely to take maternity leave, is more likely to work part time. Right. It's not that stark like zero and nothing model anymore, but it's a little bit of that. And he works a little bit more in the market and does earn more money. And that is also why I kind of push back on this model that talks about child penalties when people have kids. Income does go down when women have kids, but it's actually higher income women whose income goes down more because they have the security to stay home with their kids, spend time with their kids.
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A
Okay, so the first part of what you're saying is that marriage is a luxury good because in the beginning women had jobs, not careers. So men, they were in the market and women would take care of the home. And that then began to change with divorce.
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B
Right.
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A
And because divorce was never financially lucrative for women, you know, like you didn't get half, you know what I mean? These women said, hey, daughters, don't do this. Go get a career, not a job and start making income. And one of the things that you talk about in your book, which I think is so interesting, is that when both partners actually are making an income and even when the woman is the primary breadwinner, she's still doing more of the housework. One would think then she would be the market person, he would be the home production people. Right? But no, she's doing more and she's making more. And this is the thing of why women are like, fuck, no. Yeah.
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B
Because the specialization doesn't happen in reverse. And that's what I see in the data. And once more, people who are higher income because the gender wage gap is actually biggest at the top, if you're higher income, it's actually still likely that even if a woman has a high salary, her husband is going to earn more. And that doesn't mean, there's some of them. And I was in that situation, I became the primary breadwinner, the sole breadwinner in my marriage and I was still doing the majority. Right. But then when you're on the lower income spectrum, it's almost more of your expectation going into the marriage because there the gender wage gap is, you know, smaller or is actually reversed. So for example, for black women, you would have to go out to above the 80th percentile of the income distribution for men to earn more than women. Women tend to actually out earn men because women are getting education at higher rates, et cetera. So then if, you know, if your expectation is I'm going to earn more than my partner in the relationship and he's not going to do the chores, he's not going to do the cooking and cleaning, and literally the data is like, he's doing this much, she's doing this much. And as her earning power grows, what he's doing just stays the same. So if you know that that's not a good deal, you're not getting anything from that marriage. You don't need his paycheck, you have your own. So if you marry him, you're just getting somebody to take care of, an extra person to take care of. And so that's why I think there's a lot of women kind of making that choice, say it's not for them and then there's all this hand wringing over marriage and over fertility, but nobody's asking, why isn't it working for women and what can we do about it?
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A
Yeah, Corinne, I wanna talk to you about that. So it's interesting, I too, when I got married, I did not know this. And when I had a kid, I'm like, what is this? You know what I mean? Like, and I listen, you know, I was very intentional about marrying Nahal. Married someone who wasn't gonna, you know, who wasn't threatened by me, who was gonna support my career, all of it. But even with us, you know, when we had a kid, I was doing the home production, I was shocked.
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B
I was totally shocked. I was in that same boat.
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A
So you two, a lot of my friends, but this generation seems to be in on the joke, right? Like, they're kind of like, yeah, nope, I see it like, not gonna what? How did that happen?
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B
Maybe they heard our stories, I don't know. Yeah, you're right.
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Is that what it is? Like, is that we were just very loud about like what's inevitably gonna happen and we didn't have That. I guess you're right.
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B
But I do think I hear more of that, of them just being like, mm, mm. I know, I know what men are like and they have that hes. But I don't know. Like, I, I think you and I probably both thought we, like, we married feminists, we married people who were like, you know, they were like, of course your career is important, you know, And I think you just don't realize how insidious gender roles are, how much they pop up again, even when you, it's like whack a mole. And I say giving birth is not a gender neutral event, right? You're the one who's pregnant. You're the one who gives birth. You're the one who's breastfeeding. You're. You're the one who then needs to take maternity leave. Because it makes sense if you're the one who's breastfeeding. You need that.
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Right?
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Like, so even in a once equal household, we start to see those paths.
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Diverge, but they don't diverge in same sex couples. So this is where I want to get to, like, it's not just about men, right? Because even in same sex couples with two men, they actually are able to negotiate this very clearly in a way that we're not able to in hetero relationships. Why?
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B
So, yeah, I, I think it is heterosexual gender roles, because that's what I see in the data, is that in a same sex relationship, when one partner's earning power goes up, his share of the home production goes down. Like, they follow this specialization and we see men able to do those chores. I also see in the data, by the way, divorced men able to do those chores. So when men get divorced, their time cooking and cleaning goes up. But it's when they're in a heterosexual marriage that there's this kind of backing off. One of the problems I point to, and it is so much about gender roles, is that men tend to take up tasks that are these kind of visible, bulky tasks like shoveling the sidewalk, mowing the lawn, cleaning out the gutters, taking out the trash. And notice those are weekly or monthly tasks. So they feel like they are really sharing the household labor. But her tasks are hourly. And so, you know, it just adds up so much more. And so men, whenever I present the data, they're like, oh, but I do the trash every single week. And I'm like, yep. And, and that's a tiny fraction of overall household time because people need to eat like three meals a day, right?
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A
So one of the Things you say, Corinne, so interesting is, and I want people to understand is like, the amount of home production men have done is pretty much stayed exactly the same since the 1970s. Since the 1970s, but men have increased their hours of childcare. Is it just that they're like, yeah, I don't want to do the laundry and I don't want to buy the stuff and I don't want to do the dishes. And I mean, like, what is it about the home work that in particular, why men aren't doing it? And is there anything that we can really do about that? Because they are doing other work. They are doing childcare, like you said. Yes.
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B
To be clear, there's still a big gender gap in childcare. And actually, because our time with our children has increased so much, and this is one of the most important facts in the book is that mother's time with our kids has doubled. And that is a big force that's squeezing us. The reason we're so stressed out is like, we are doing so much more with our kids than our parents generation. But dad's time also has increased. Both parents have increased. But because mom's time has increased more, the gender gap is actually bigger in childcare. But I do think childcare is less gendered. I think, you know, dads are able to say, like, yeah, this is being a dad. I want to spend time with my kids. Then they feel like they're doing a lot in the household because they compare to their dads, and they're like, I read my kid a bedtime story. I never got a bedtime story. Right.
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Yeah.
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B
So they feel actually like they're doing a lot compared to their dads, but compared to their wives, they're doing so much less. But I do think the unglamorous cooking and cleaning also follows the invisible labor of childcare, like the household management. It's this stuff that is like the backbone of living, right? This scaffolding for our lives that isn't particularly glamorous or rewarding. And I think that gets left to women. So I think men share the tip of the iceberg, and then there's an iceberg underneath that gets left to women.
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A
And that leaves you resentful. Like I was just thinking this morning, you know, like, Nahal took Sean to play tennis while I did the laundry. You know what I'm saying? And like, great time wise, right? It's like we're spending the same, you know, I mean, we're both with time, but it's like you get to have fun with him.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I do think you're right. It's like the feminization of this kind of work. And how do you really change that? And how do you have. I always joke that, like, I want the next super bowl ad to be like LeBron James doing the laundry.
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B
Yes, no, exactly. That's right. I do think we need different role models and we need to change it with our sons. Like, we need to engage our sons in that to be like, you want to talk to me about, you know, the game or like, the video game you're playing? Or the, like, my son has all the soccer stats, like, great. Talk to me while we fold the laundry together. You know, because this work of living is important. It's, you know, that is also, like, valuable and, you know, just things that make our life comfortable. And that's one of the things that I found immediately post divorce, but then also, you know, getting remarried. But like, post divorce, just keeping my house the way I wanted it to. And the fact that I wanted, like, the nice throw pillows so we could sit on the couch and have a family movie night or whatever. It's like the work that you put into your space, it leads to connection, it leads to moments. Right. Makes our lives better. And not having a partner in that is really exhausting. You know, one of the things that was nice of getting remarried and married to a woman was I think this is what you should look for. She had preferences. She was like, oh, it would be nice for us to sit in the backyard. I'm going to clean it up and get some patio furniture. Right. Like, she also cared about the stuff that, like, made our lives work. And that's. You should look for that person. It doesn't have to be a woman, but you should look for someone who also cares.
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A
So since you brought it up, you got divorced from a man and married a woman. And it was also like, your data basically showed that, like, you know, hetero marriage is kind of, if, you know, if you care about the gender ratio and, you know, kind of suck, you know, for this. And they've also, like, they've been hard to move, whereas same sex relationships are much more egalitarian. People are happier. You write the story in the cut. Tell me about that experience. Because it caused a little bit of a, you know, I mean, a conversation.
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B
Yep. And that's. That's become like, what people talk about. It was funny. I went on, like, Chicago morning tv and the anchor was like, so you're a lesbian. Tell us more. I was like, oh, my God, it's not.
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A
You're like that. That's your takeaway. Yeah.
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B
That's not what the book is about. But, But I, I. It was like a very personal sort of journey for me where I just was so shocked and so taken aback by how strong the gender roles were in my marriage, and I got really angry and resentful and worn down. So when I decided to kind of get divorced, I didn't view it as, like, it's not that I'm particularly divorcing you. It's like, this situation is not working for me. Right. And so what I wanted was something that was so different from that. And so I decided that statistically I was more likely to find that by marrying a woman. And I was conveniently, you know, by attracted. Right. So I had that option. I know that's not an option for everybody. So I decided I was only going to date women.
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A
And was part of this decision based on, like, the data and, like, the fact that you're like, I don't want to be the home production.
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B
Yeah, it was seeing, I think, seeing that, you know, when you're the primary breadwinner, like, that the data confirmed my experience that when you're the primary breadwinner that women still do more of this home production. I was like, that's bullshit. It's bullshit. And I knew, I think, at that point, too, like, it was just also likely that I might be the breadwinner in my next relationship. Right. And then I also think for me, the other piece of this is just personal and not advice is like, I got separated when I was 37, 36, almost 37. And so I was like, I've seen my friends go through this and the way that women are devalued on the heterosexual dating market as you age. And so it was also really nice, like, dating women. It was like, oh, everybody still thinks I'm great. You know, like, nobody's like, oh, you're old. Yeah.
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A
Like, you're 37. You're hot.
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B
Yeah. So it was a good experience. And I happened to meet somebody that I love. I am not. I think the thing with the cut is it sort of implied I was being, like, a little bit too strategic. If I had not met somebody, that.
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A
Economist decision to, like, you know, from a data perspective, be like, all of a sudden I'm start dating women.
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B
Right. If I had not met someone that I loved and, like, had a great relationship with or whatever, I would not have married a woman. Right. But I met somebody amazing, and, you know, I just that there's been so many pleasant surprises of Like I said, she has preferences, she cares about things in the household, so she's gonna make our lives better. It's not me kind of dragging us along.
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A
Today's episode is supported by what Should I Do With My Money? An original podcast from Morgan Stanley. This podcast pairs real people with experienced financial advisors. You'll hear candid conversations from people just like you with questions just like yours. Questions like can I retire early? Like really early. How do I leave a financial legacy for my special needs child? Menopause is making me feel wacky and it's shifting how I think about money. Help. These conversations can get emotional, but they're always practical. I checked out the episode about money, motherhood and menopause on what should I do with my money? And I loved hearing from other women who are also committed to setting their kids up for success and hearing how menopause plays into work and money and just everything. It's so on brand with what we talk about every week on this show. Search for what Should I Do with My Money in your podcast player. We'll also include a link in the show notes. Thank you to what Should I Do with My Money? And Morgan Stanley for their support. Cooler days call for layers that last and Quince is my go to for quality essentials that feel cozy, look refined and won't blow your budget. Think $50 Mongolian cashmere, premium denim that fits like a dream and luxe outerwear you'll wear year after year. These are the pieces that'll turn into your fall uniform. I'm eyeing their wool coats. They look designer level but cost a fraction of the price and the quality. Honestly just as good, if not better. And because Quint's partners directly with top tier ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, they deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish and effortless. Quint's has really become my one stop shop. I already mentioned the Mongolian cashmere and the denim that I love, but I also found great things for my husband, the kids, the kitchen and even around the house. Find your fall staples at quint. Go to quince.commidlife for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I-N-C e.com midlife to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com midlife Remember when life felt lighter? When the music was good and you were just you. Well, it's time to press pause on routines and hit play on something unforgettable. The 90s cruise from January 25th through 30th, 2026 set sail onboard Celebrity Constellation, leaving from Tampa and heading to Nassau and Key West. Five days of sunshine themed nights, concerts from tlc, Sugar Ray B. Better than Ezra, En Vogue and more. All inclusive so your food, drinks and entertainment are taken care of. It's not just nostalgia. Sure, it's the music you love, but it's also about stepping into joy, freedom and memories that remind you who you are beyond the daily grind. Treat yourself, because after years of showing up for everyone else, this is your chance to do something unforgettable for you. Head to the 90s cruise.com midlife to book now and use code midlife for $250 off new reservations if you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile. Their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no bs. Here's why I said yes to making the switch and getting Premium Wireless for $15 a month. Look, I was tired of those jaw dropping bills from my old provider. The random fees, the overages, the fine print with Mint plans start at just 50 dol. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network. And the best part? You don't have to buy a new phone. You can just use your own device with any Mint Mobile plan and even keep your phone number and all your contacts. Honestly, the service quality is every bit as good as my old provider. But now I'm saving money every month. That's money back in my pocket for things I actually want. Ready to say yes to saying no? Make the switch@mintmobile.com midlife that's mintmobile.com midlife upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for the first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Yeah, I guess. Okay, so in irl, have you ever found anything that debunks your data? And what I mean by that is, is it possible to get a good deal, as you say, in a heteronormative relationship? Or is it possible to be in a same sex relationship where you don't have, you know, I mean, equality?
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B
Oh, a hundred percent it is. The data is an average, right? And so, like a hundred percent, like, there are lesbian relationships where people say, oh, this is really annoying, inequitable. My wife just dumps her laundry on the floor and like, expects me to deal with or whatever, Right? Hundred percent. And I talk to my friends about situations like this, and then I have friends where I'm like, well, if I had met your husband, like, early in my 20s, you know, like, maybe I wouldn't have ended up divorced because, like, he seems to be doing a lot, like, good for you, you know, like, that's so I think that it. There's no. Like, the data is an average. But I do think that there's patterns when I see it in a heterosexual relationship where he is really doing half that is hard won. They had to work towards it. They had to fight past the defaults, because I think the defaults are there. So in those relationships, they always tell me, oh, yeah, we reached a point where we noticed this and then we sat down and tried to figure that out. It's never just like, oh, it ended up this way that he just ends up doing so much more.
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A
Yeah, that's like a product of couples counseling. I agree with you. Like, it's. It's like the thing that was like, either going to break them or was such an issue. I don't think it was really by choice. I mean, what do you say to why you think, like, culturally right now, I think all I get is, like, tradwife content.
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B
Right?
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A
Like, culturally right now we are really selling this image of like, yeah, this is what you want. And let's be honest, right? Like, to your point. To my point, the grind sucks. There is something appealing, right? Of like, just finding a man. Like, let's be honest, there is something appealing about that.
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B
And that's like, I laughed out loud and felt so seen when, like, Ali Wong was like, I don't want to lean in. I want to lie down. Yeah.
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A
You know?
- [28:45]
B
And I was like, yes. Like, because I think we were at a cultural moment then where we were glamorizing work and we were saying, look, the purpose of your life is your career. It's to maximize your career. It's to earn as much money as possible. And I'm like, the purpose of my life is to be happy and have joy and share that joy with my loved ones. And like, work is important for that because work buys things like family food and shelter that, like, I need to have a happy life. Right. But it's not the sole purpose of my life. And certainly for some people, it also brings Some kind of fulfillment and self actualization. I actually love my job. But when I ask people to do an exercise where I say, picture a world with no constraints, picture that you don't need money, you're independently wealthy. Right. You, like, are a billionaire's daughter. What would you do with your time? What would your life look like? And even people who love their jobs, they're like, yeah, I might do that for like five or ten hours a week, but it wouldn't do it for 60 hours a week. Right. So they recognize, like, if I didn't have the constraint that I needed to earn money, I actually don't get my fulfillment, my cup filled, I would. You think you would do it your job for 60 hours a week?
- [29:47]
A
I would.
- [29:48]
B
I think that's amazing then that you.
- [29:50]
A
Found, you know, I'm working holic and I haven't found. I don't have any, like, like a life or friends or something. Like, I mean, I don't know, what would you say? Because I feel like you love what you do.
- [29:58]
B
I love what I do. And I think I would probably do it for 20 hours a week. Yeah, like teach. I would teach, you know, and do, you know, my research and communication around it, Because I love having these conversations for 20 hours a week. And then, you know, I think I would spend a lot of time with my family and with my friends and traveling maybe.
- [30:19]
A
I mean, this is one of the things you also talk about. Your book is about prioritizing your leisure time. Here's the thing. If I was being honest, I think I have been working hard for so long that I think I don't even know what I like. I haven't really developed besides my girlfriends and my friends. But even if you were to say, my favorite thing to go do is go watch Arundhati Roy give a book talk or see a Broadway show about feminism, it's still kind of connected to my mind. I'm a nerd.
- [30:53]
B
Yeah, but that's still. That's intellectual engagement. But that is your chosen leisure time, Right.
- [30:58]
A
Does that count as chosen leisure time as you talk about in the book?
- [31:01]
B
It counts. Yeah, of course it counts.
- [31:02]
A
Yeah.
- [31:02]
B
Okay.
- [31:03]
A
Okay.
- [31:03]
B
You know, I think leisure time is productive. And the way I describe this is economists think of what you're maximizing is utility. And utility is the sum total of your joy and happiness and contentment over your lifetime. And one way that we get utility is by buying things, right? Because like food and shelter, of course, but also just like nice vacations or nice stuff, Right? Sure. But we Also get a lot of utility from how we spend our time. And I think we lost sight at some point of like, oh, it's all about career, and we're going to put all our time there to get as much money to buy stuff as possible and lost sight of that. Like, time is actually a core part of utility. So I tell people to think of leisure time as being productive because we think of it as productive to spend an hour working so we can earn money, so we can buy something that makes us or our family happy. But what if you can just spend that hour doing something that makes you happy directly that's equally productive? You made the same amount of utility points, so you should think of that as productive. So then circling back to tradwifes, I think that there were some women who did not feel seen in that movement that said, like, the sole purpose of your life is your career. And particularly climbing the corporate ladder, not even finding self actualization, but like climbing the corporate ladder, leaning into whatever deal your job is offering you. And I know for me, another one of the shocks of motherhood was how much I wanted to do it, to do the parts of motherhood that were holding my baby, taking my baby to the park, just sitting and staring at them, right? And you know, I had been told, like, I was supposed to resent the time they were taking me away from work. And. And I didn't. I wanted to be there. And I was kind of shocked by my own preferences because again, as a feminist, I thought, like, no, this is like, I'm not gonna keep breastfeeding once I have to go back to work, or I'm not gonna do this or that, and I want it to. So then it's like really dangerous because there is this part of it that's appealing, but it would leave women in a really risky situation because you are not protected if somebody else is investing in a private good, which is his human capital, in your relationship while you're investing in a public good, taking care of the house and children for both of you, if that relationship fails, and it's not just divorce, it could be death, it could be disability, it could be just losing a job, right? If that structure fails, you are not protected. He will walk out of there with his career or, you know, like I said, all those other things could happen and you're not going to have the human capital, the skill set to be competitive in the market. And so I worry that we're using the kind of little bit of discomfort with something that I do think needed like an answer to it. I do think that we needed a new movement that says, like, no, women, like you get to be self actualized in all of these dimensions. It's not a singular dimension. So we needed that. But we're using that discomfort with that earlier kind of lean in soul career movement to seduce young women into a path that I also think is very destructive and dangerous for them.
- [34:19]
A
Yeah. Well, I think it's like, I. This is the work that we do. Moms first. It's just binary. It's just also not true. Right. It's like no one can afford to not work in our country anymore, let's be honest. Unless you're incredibly privileged. And so for all the reasons why you just said. But it's also just a fantasy. And we don't have to operate at both extremes. I think what we need to do is build what we want, which is in the middle. Cause I'm like, you like, one of the best things about COVID I was like, I don't have to go on a plane anymore and I can snuggle. Si Si. And I can pick Sean up from school. And it's those little moments that like, we know as moms, like, we just get, you know, we get the dirt. It doesn't take anything away from my job to be able to have that amount of both flexibility. And you're. You're absolutely right. People are always say to me, well, don't worry, they won't remember. And I was like, no, no, no, I will remember. Yeah.
- [35:07]
B
I was. This is for me.
- [35:09]
A
This is for me. This has nothing to. And so we even today, that is like such a built in perspective of feminism. Right. And Betty Friedan wrote this great speech about, like, you know, in the 80s, essentially, we missed childcare and paid leave. Like, we missed the family part. We missed the opportunity to bring that in. And now I think there are forces on the right that are really just taking advantage of that.
- [35:34]
B
That's right.
- [35:34]
A
What I say to people is, but you can't belittle what they're saying, because what they're saying is something that many women actually want. But it doesn't have to be at that extreme. Like, because we. What we want to provide is choice.
- [35:47]
B
Yeah. If you dismiss that and you say like, no, that's dumb. You have to get a career. Right. It's like, you're not making space for what I call the multiplicity of women's desires.
- [35:56]
A
Yeah. Like, just look. Look at me. And you. Like, I would spend 40 hours, my work and I feel like I can do my work with being a mother, because my work is about motherhood. Right. So it's like. But that. But people would make radically different choices. And I think we have to create the options for people to really do that. One of the things I loved you talked about. So you have dinner with your kids every night, right?
- [36:18]
B
Right now I'm traveling a lot, but I mostly, yeah, we. We do family dinner time.
- [36:22]
A
How do you. How do you. How did you. How do you do that? Because as crazy, it's so hard for me to make that happen for our family.
- [36:28]
B
Yeah, it is very. I think once you get into, like, the age of, like, the sports and the activities, it is very hard. So I want to be clear. This is like, it's a work in progress right now. When. Like, now my. My son. My older son just turned 8, and so now he's on the travel soccer team. And it's like, all right, can we manage to sit down at like, 5:15? Because, like, that's when we're gonna sit down and, like, can we actually get there? So I think it's challenging, and I don't think it needs to be every night. I think it could. If it's three nights a week or whatever it is that works for your family, I think that that's great. But at some point, it gets hard to get your kids to talk to you. And it's like sitting down around the table and eating food together is one way where you're just like, all right, we're all spending time together. We're all kind of touching base. So for me, the big thing that I block off is I just don't work during that period. So I am out of office from 5pm to 8pm and I think that a lot of women, you know, when we're talking about return to office, and I talk about this in the book, the book talks about things that firms could do also. And like, for a lot of women, like, they would go back to the office if they could always be guaranteed to leave at like, 4:30 or 5pm Right. So they could pick up their kids.
- [37:31]
C
Yeah.
- [37:31]
A
And they'd go back at 8. That's right.
- [37:33]
B
Yeah. And so it's like firms are saying, like, oh, no, it's so hard. We can't hire women or whatever. But it's like, if you just actually give boundaries, you can. And I think firms need to work a lot harder at that.
- [37:45]
A
I don't know about you, but I've always struggled with burnout and focused this is such a common experience for so many of us. But what we don't realize is that sometimes the difficulties you go through might be something deeper. It might be time to explore what it means to be neurodivergent. If that's where you're at, I want to tell you about another podcast you should check out. It's called Hyper Focus with Ray Jacobson. Each episode, Ray speaks with a different expert, whether they're a scientist, doctor or researcher, to dive into some of the big questions and headlines around mental health and well being from an ADHD lens. They talk about things like can you really hack your dopamine? And what parents need to know about the MAHA report. I checked out a few episodes and was so impressed by how they broke down adhd, I thought I knew what ADHD was. But hyperfocus taught me the misconceptions, what to look out for with kids with adhd, and even trace back the history of how women have been underrepresented and ADHD diagnosis. As a parent and midlifer, I feel better equipped to understand what it really means to have ADHD and how to support those around me who are neurodivergent. If you're curious about adhd, make sure to listen to Hyperfocus with Ray Jacobson. Search for Hyperfocus with Ray Jacobson in your podcast app. That's Hyperfocus with Ray Jacobson.
- [39:05]
C
Well, hi everybody, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus from the Wiser Than Me podcast. And I'm not gonna talk about food waste this time. I'm gonna talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill. It could be enriching our soil or feeding our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly, way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. But it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true. I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and it's fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and it's engineered by the guy who did your iPhone? But you have to kind of live with Mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.
- [40:35]
A
There's one thing that all people on earth have in common. We move through the world in a human body. Bodies ache, they bleed, they desire, they hold the stories of our lives. And when people have power over their bodies, when they can access the care their bodies need, they can begin to write their own stories. International Planned Parenthood Federation, or ippf, is the world's largest network for sexual and reproductive health rights and justice. They are sharing real stories of people around the world. People like Alina in Malawi who walked miles to the nearest clinic to birth her baby, only to give birth along the way. Everybody holds a story and you can read just a few of them now@ippf.org everybody.
- [41:23]
B
Is it just me or are things actually really scary right now? In the world of public health, every day brings another confusing headline or yet again, a far fetched claim. Vaccines are somehow up for debate and parents are scrolling TikTok for medical advice. I'm Chelsea Clinton, an advocate, author, investor, teacher and mom navigating this insane time right alongside you. I hope you'll join me on my new podcast, that Can't Be True, a show that sorts fact from fiction, especially on issues impacting our health. From Limonada Media and the Clinton foundation, that can't be True is out October 2nd.
- [42:01]
A
I wanted to ask you, Corinne, I want to know the one thing that surprised you and then the one thing that you, like, discovered that could be the next thing you want to write about.
- [42:09]
B
Oh, that's so interesting because yeah, it's funny, when you talk about your book, you find ways of describing and talking about things and connecting with people about things and you're like, oh, I wish that was in the book. Right, because all these additional stories come out, all this additional data, like from people's lives. I knew that the childcare load was falling on women. I didn't realize until I saw it in the data how much of the cooking and cleaning load was falling on women. And just the fact that that was what was driving it, that I was like, oh yeah, if I'm the breadwinner, it's probably because I'm doing all this childcare that I'm so exhausted. And then seeing that it was actually like things like, you know, putting away the laundry and just this household management and, you know, cleaning and then that actually when you get divorced in a relationship that's not working. Women's time goes down and men's time goes up. And that was in my own life. I thought things were going to be harder as a single mom, and I was like, actually, it's easier. And then I saw that in the data, and that was very surprising to me.
- [43:03]
A
But why is it easier? Because you're not, you're not having to clean his laundry because you were actually.
- [43:08]
B
Taking care of him. Like, you think, oh, we had two adults and we were like, dividing up the labor. But actually you were doing some of that for him, like dinner, right. That you're trying to figure out dinner. And you're like, oh, okay, well, he only eats, like, meat, but the kids only, like Mac and cheese. So I'm going to make both or whatever. Right. Like, that's harder than it is just to cook for your kids. Also, I mean, for me, it was also knowing what I had help with and what I didn't. So, like, once I knew I don't have the extra pair of hands, I gave myself permission to, like, get the support that I needed. So, like, I know that this is not viable to everyone, but also I moved to a much cheaper city. So, like, I had extra room in my house and I was able to host an au pair and I had, like, a lot more support there. And so I, I gave myself that permission. Whereas, like, when you think we should be able to do this, we're two adults, we can divide this up, and then you just kind of get left, like, in the lurch all the time. So that was something that was surprising. What have I found that would be in my next book? I just have heard so many stories of women navigating this in different ways and different ways that the material connects with them. And maybe what I would write about next is some of those stories of, like, the different paths that women have taken to kind of making it work. Like, how are women navigating this and what are these, what are these different paths look like?
- [44:23]
A
Did you run into anyone that lives in a commune? Yeah, because I think that's a path I hear about a lot.
- [44:28]
B
Yes. So women saying, like, that, you know, they decided to have a kid with, like, actually their best friend, you know, like a sort of a platonic co parenting relationship. And yes, I have heard about communes. I think an underrated level up, because I talk in the book instead of leaning in that we need to level up. An underrated level up is moving to a cheaper city. I really think cost of living. Yeah, it sticks you in the grind. Because in New York, we needed every cent to, like, just pay the bills. And so it made everything feel so fraught and so hard. And then again, I describe in the book this period the squeeze. And you're often in a time squeeze and a money squeeze at the same time. And so if you can alleviate the money squeeze, that helps because like I said, then I could get no pair or I could pay someone to clean, you know, because I got out of the money squeeze from just living in a city that we really couldn't afford on one paycheck.
- [45:18]
A
Yeah, I thought that was a really interesting. You know, I just read an article about how more hetero men are having children on their own.
- [45:26]
B
Oh, really?
- [45:27]
A
Yep. And it's fascinating. Right? You know, you've seen all the data that shows men want to have children, women want to have less children. So now they're like, oh, I'm just gonna have a kid on my own.
- [45:36]
B
It's very expensive for men to have kids on their own because men don't have a uterus or eggs. And so for women to have kids on their own, like, sperm donation is like a thousand dollars.
- [45:48]
A
Yeah.
- [45:48]
B
But for men to have kids on their own, you would have to be.
- [45:51]
A
Like, you have to pay for the whole ivf.
- [45:53]
B
You have to be very, very high in the income distribution because you have to pay for eggs. Right. And that. Because those costs real reproductive labor to produce eggs, unlike to produce sperm. It's expensive. And then surrogacy is basically a year of someone's reproductive labor, and it's priced accordingly. It costs over a hundred thousand dollars.
- [46:11]
A
But it'll be interesting to see if this is something that's true, that ends up. You know what I mean?
- [46:16]
B
I don't know.
- [46:16]
A
Really happening more broad based across income spectrums, how these things kind of play out.
- [46:22]
B
Right.
- [46:22]
A
In terms of it. Because I just wonder sometimes how much of this is culture versus nature. Because like you said, when you get divorced, they do their own laundry, they buy their own stuff, they learn to.
- [46:34]
B
Set up play dates, which is one of those infuriating things. Every divorced mom, they're like, I always had to set up the play dates. But now in his weekend, suddenly he has play dates.
- [46:42]
A
Yeah. So what is it? I mean, it's just interesting. What is it about the institution of the marriage? Right. Because I find myself too. Not because my husband wants me to. Right. Falling into these gender norms.
- [46:55]
B
Yeah.
- [46:55]
A
Because I think that that's a good wife or a good mom.
- [46:59]
B
Right.
- [46:59]
A
And less about what is the expectation, like Nahal will always be like, you don't need to do that. I didn't ask you to do it. You know what I mean? Like, you know, like the other day it was like Dani O or something was like in town. I was exhausted, I've been traveling. I was like, I should take Sciat 5. He's like, why? Yeah, but it's just, it's all so culturally baked in and I think that that's really. We need to figure out how to like really shift that well.
- [47:21]
B
And I think that is like why I hope that my book is empowering. Because when you see the data and you see how our time has gotten squeezed from all dimensions, that our careers are more demanding than ever, men are doing the same amount of houseworks in the 1970s and our time with our kids has doubled. Right. When you see that and you see like, you're like, oh, that actually doesn't add up. That lets you start to be like, I have to let go of some of these things. Like being that my vision of like a perfect mom and wife and my vision of what I want my career to look like, those are actually two separate full time jobs that don't fit in the same 24 hour day. And so if I'm going to make this work, if I'm going to be this two way player who can play offense and defense and be self actualized in both these dimensions, I'm gonna have to make choices.
- [48:07]
A
Yeah.
- [48:07]
B
And so I hope that the book empowers people in that way and then gives them strategies to make those choices to actually sort through. Like, okay, what do I want to do and what do I not want to do? Where am I getting a return on my time and where am I putting time or effort or money into something because it feels like I should be doing it, but it's actually a cue I'm getting externally. It doesn't really follow my values and my needs.
- [48:30]
A
Can I ask you something just to close on? So in your second marriage, what is the conversation that you had or that you learned the way your first marriage kind of resulted in like, did you have a different kind of conversation in the beginning?
- [48:43]
B
Right.
- [48:43]
A
Which is like, were you at clear expectations or did you not need to because you were in a lesbian relationship? Right.
- [48:50]
B
Well, I'll say two. There's two separate areas. Like one is, I think with the housework, household labor. That just worked so beautifully because my wife is sort of like a germaphobe and so she like loves cleaning and like needs things to be really Clean. And so she naturally does, like, the cleaning and the laundry. And like, I. Everybody likes my cooking, so I naturally kind of do the cooking. And it just. That just works. Like, we kind of have separate domains there, but they're both in that category, you know, of the. Of the housework. But the really important thing for me, because I value parenting and how I parent so much, and I really resented that that was mom labor, that I was expected to read these stacks of books, follow the Instagram accounts, get all the latest and greatest, and then I had to teach somebody else, like, how to parent. Like, I was going to distill this, right? So I really needed to find somebody who shared values around parenting, and that was a big part of my dating process. So in the dating process, it was like figuring that out because I wanted a second kid at that time, and that was a whole. A whole other story, right, of, like, that, you know, four months into my relationship with my wife, I was like, I'm going through IVF now to freeze the embryo. So if you want a sperm donor that looks like you, you just. You got to opt in now.
- [50:02]
A
No pressure. No pressure, exactly.
- [50:04]
B
Because I was. I was at that point, like, 38, going on 39. It was like, yeah, we got to do this. And I did have my baby in May when I was 41 now. And it's the best. And part of. I think why life together has been so great is we did share those values around parenting. And so then, as I said, like, the best surprise is, like, her being this step parent to my son, who I. That I never imagined I was getting, you know, even though I was getting a co parent, you know, for this baby. Like, that was so important that once we found out that we aligned on those things, we had to figure out how to make it add up when, like, we had very different visions of what our near future was because she wanted to sell all her stuff and move into a van and travel the country. And I was going through IVF to try to freeze embryos because I wanted a second kid. We compromised on doing what I wanted, but she. We now rent a van every summer, and we drive to national parks. And it's.
- [51:00]
A
It's great.
- [51:01]
B
But it was like, that logistical. Like, we were not actually on the same page. That was easier to overcome than overcoming. Like, we don't have shared values. And that is, like, one of my pieces of advice, because, like, women are like, you can't just tell me to be pickier because it's already so hard out there, right? So if you're telling me like now I have to be picky about, you know, whether he cooks. Yeah, I'm saying I actually think when you tune into what is going to determine your happiness the most over your entire life cycle, it means you're increasing your pickiness on some dimensions and you're letting some other dimensions go, actually.
- [51:35]
A
Yep. Yep. This is so great. Well, I. I loved your book Having It All. Everybody read this book. I loved, loved, loved it. So congratulations.
- [51:43]
B
Thank you so much.
- [51:44]
A
Thanks for coming on the show.
- [51:46]
B
It's also so great to get to have conversations like this. So thank you.
- [51:57]
A
A huge thank you to Corinne Lowe for joining me. Her book Having it all is out now and trust me, you'll never look at the phrase work, life, balance in the same way again. Before you go, thank you for listening to My so Called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content you can't hear anywhere else. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts. Or for all the other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com My so called Midlife is brought to you by Moms First. Come see what we're all about at MomsFirst US. I'm your host and executive producer, Reshma Sajani. Our senior producer is Katie Eckstek Cordova, our producer is Beth Rowe, and our sound engineer and editor is Mary Kelly of Sweater Weather. Our theme music was composed by Ivan Kurayev and performed by Ivan with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Scheduling support from Cindy Cook. Sales and distribution is by Lemonada Media. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know what you're doing in Midlife. Follow My so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership and be sure to follow me, rashmistajani and moms first on Instagram, LinkedIn and substack. Thanks and we'll be back next week. Hey there Lemonada listeners. This is Penn and Nava from podcrushed.
- [53:30]
B
We're just dropping in to say that our new book, Essays on Love, Loss and Coming of Age is officially out now. Everywhere you get books.
- [53:40]
A
After several years of putting our guests in the hot seat, we ourselves sat down and mined the very memories we've.
- [53:46]
B
Spent years trying to forget.
- [53:47]
A
Our pain, your pleasure. You can also listen to the audiobook.
- [53:50]
B
Which includes Nava Crying Sophie sighing and me getting really close to the mic like this and just talking slowly, assuredly.
- [53:59]
A
Giving you exactly what you want and need. Crushmore is out now. Go, go, go, go, go.