How to Fight Better with Oona Metz

Summary

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Podcast Summary

My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani

Episode: How to Fight Better with Oona Metz
Date: January 7, 2026

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Main Theme

Reshma Saujani explores the nuances of conflict, divorce, and emotional growth in midlife with psychotherapist, author, and divorce group leader Oona Metz. Together, they discuss how midlife is uniquely challenging for relationships, how to fight more productively, and how the process of divorce can be seen as a journey of self-discovery and empowerment—particularly for women. Oona’s new book, Unhitched, provides guidance for navigating the emotional arc of divorce, and this episode offers actionable advice for anyone considering, going through, or supporting someone in divorce.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Divorce Feels Different at Midlife

[03:00 - 07:12]

• January and “Divorce Day”: The first working Monday of January sees the highest rate of people contacting divorce lawyers.
  • (03:00) “Cracks that were easy to ignore suddenly just feel impossible to avoid.” — Reshma
• Midlife Transitions: The pressures of routines resetting and life transitions often poke holes in marital stability.
• The Emotional Arc: Metz’s experience with divorce support groups informs her understanding that divorce is an emotional, not just logistical, process.

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Why Oona Metz Wrote Unhitched

[05:13 - 07:12]

• From Experience to Expertise: After going through her own divorce, Oona launched women’s divorce support groups and realized existing divorce literature was badly outdated.
• “I know about the emotional journey of divorce, both personally and certainly professionally, and the book doesn’t exist, so I have to write it.” — Oona (06:38)

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Divorce as an Opportunity for Growth

[07:12 - 09:05]

• Metz stresses that, for women, divorce can be harnessed for self-discovery—if they allow themselves to grieve fully.
• “In order to move on in your divorce, you have to let go. And in order to let go, you have to do the work of grieving.” — Oona (08:24)
• Women tend to “grieve,” while men more often “replace” (seek new partners quickly).

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Grieving and Feeling: The Path Through

[09:05 - 11:28]

• Cultural and gendered expectations often prevent women from taking the time to truly feel.
• Grieving in community—like Oona’s support groups—is powerful, as hearing others articulate your feelings can create personal breakthroughs.
• Reshma admits: “I cry once every three years ... I know when a cry is coming, and I’ll look for a sad movie about a dog just to let it out.” (09:48)

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Supporting Children Through Divorce and Co-Parenting

[12:05 - 13:32]

• New Research: It’s conflict, not divorce itself, that most damages kids.

  • “The most important thing that co-parents can do is to reduce the conflict between them, which can be really hard…and reduce any conflict that’s in front of the kids.” — Oona (12:14)

• Modeling healthy fighting and reconciliation (when married) can build resiliency; fighting without making up in divorce is damaging.

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Why Women Initiate Most Heterosexual Divorces

[13:32 -16:00]

• Beyond the “three A’s” (Abuse, Addiction, Affairs), women are pushed by sustained inequality (disproportionate housework, emotional labor) and passivity (spouses treating them like a parent).
• “The woman has seven more hours of housework a week, and the man has one less hour.” — Oona referencing research (14:44)
• Many women describe their husbands as “like an additional child.”

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Is Marriage Always Better for Men?

[18:32 - 20:04]

• Many younger women now view marriage as a “better deal for men,” yet Oona clarifies that healthy marriages work for both, but divorce can often benefit women more than men.

  • “Divorce is a good deal for women. … Women do better when they're divorced than men.” — Oona (19:02)

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The Logistics, Trends, and Broader Culture of Divorce

[21:24 - 24:01]

• Finances and logistics (like high mortgage rates) are major barriers to divorce; Oona predicts divorce rates may increase when the economy improves.
• Current US divorce rate: Down to 42%, not 50%.
• People are delaying marriage, marrying older, and thus (perhaps) divorcing less.

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Quiet Quitting Marriages: Staying, but Not Together

[24:46 - 25:58]

• Many couples delay legal divorce and live as roommates, “for the kids” or finances.
• Oona notes this can be viable for some, but often breeds resentment or stifles personal growth, especially when new relationships arise.

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The Threat to No-Fault Divorce

[25:58 - 29:38]

• Oona explains the critical importance of current no-fault divorce laws.
  • If repealed: Women could be forced to prove abuse or other wrongdoing in court, increasing their exposure to violence and loss of privacy.
  • Quote: “Women are going to die. That’s what’s going to happen. Women are going to die.” — Oona (30:19)
  • These changes threaten women’s autonomy and safety and would exacerbate inequities, especially since 70% of divorces are initiated by women.

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Building a Support Team for Divorce

[31:21 - 34:36]

• Oona emphasizes not relying on a single friend for support, but assembling a “tribe” with diverse roles:
  • The practical friend (fixes your printer)
  • The celebrator (shares in victories)
  • The listener (holds space for pain without judgment)
  • Fellow divorcees (for lived experience)
  • The emergency contact (for medical or logistical needs)
• Divorce support groups, whether virtual or in-person, can fill critical gaps and reduce isolation.

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The Role of Forgiveness

[34:36 - 37:51]

• Forgive yourself first: Everyone acts out of character under stress.
• Forgiveness doesn’t mean excusing or condoning harm, nor does it require reconciliation.
  • “If you want to forgive your ex … that can be between you and you. It’s not about ‘I forgive you so you can do it again.’ It’s about letting go.” — Oona (35:32)
• The key is to avoid being trapped by resentment; “Let go or be dragged.”

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Actionable Steps for Women Contemplating Divorce

[38:15 - 39:32]

• Practice “micro-separations” if not ready to leave:

  • Make solo plans, pursue solo travel, sleep separately
  • Invest time in independent interests or neglected hobbies.
  • Test out new “parenting night” routines at home to build emotional strength and independence.

• Quote: “Anything you can do to strengthen your own self…will help, because divorce is stressful and heartbreaking, but there can be wonderful growth and healing on the other side.” — Oona (39:25)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [05:13] Reshma: “I’m not getting divorced. I’m not planning a divorce. But I loved [your book] anyway.”
• [08:24] Oona: “The opposite of love is not hate. … Both love and hate keep you attached. In order to move on, you have to let go. And to let go, you have to grieve. And to grieve, you have to feel.”
• [14:44] Oona: “When a man and a woman get married, the woman has seven more hours of housework a week, and the man has one less.”
• [19:02] Oona: “Women do better when they're divorced than men.”
• [30:19] Oona: “Women are going to die. That's what’s going to happen” (on the dangers of repealing no-fault divorce).
• [35:32] Oona: “If you want to forgive your ex … that can be between you and you… It's about letting go. … Let go or be dragged.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Divorce and January trends: [03:00 – 04:51]
• Oona’s story and book motivation: [05:13 – 07:12]
• The emotional journey of divorce: [07:12 – 09:05]
• Grieving in community: [10:29 – 11:28]
• Children and co-parenting: [12:05 – 13:32]
• Women leading in divorce: [13:32 – 16:00]
• Marriage as a “deal” for women: [18:32 – 20:04]
• Quiet quitting and logistics: [24:46 – 25:58]
• No-fault divorce explained: [25:58 – 29:38]
• Support groups and tribe-building: [31:21 – 34:36]
• Forgiveness and moving forward: [34:36 – 37:51]
• First steps for hesitant women: [38:15 – 39:32]

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Tone

Empathetic, direct, occasionally humorous (“No fucks given—that clarity is amazing.”), yet deeply grounded and actionable. Oona provides both tough love and tangible support, while Reshma models vulnerability and curiosity.

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Where to Find More

• Oona Metz’s Book & Resources: unametz.com
• Unhitched: Essential Divorce Guide for Women — Out January 13, 2026
• Community resources, online events, and support groups referenced on Oona’s website.

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In sum:
This episode offers a compassionate, practical, and sometimes provocative look at the realities—and opportunities—of midlife relationship transitions. Anchored by Oona Metz’s expertise and Reshma Saujani’s relatably honest questioning, listeners come away understanding the power of grieving, the realities of modern marriage, the dangers posed by policy changes, and why support—both communal and self-generated—is essential for growth through and after divorce.

Transcript

[A]

January always comes with pressure to reinvent yourself. New habits, new rules, a whole new you. But midlife has taught me that real change is not about overhauling everything, it's about taking care of what already exists. And as I get older, I want something simple that actually supports my body. That is why I want to share my TO Pure Gummies. As we age, our cells make less energy. That decline shows up as fatigue, slower recovery, and that feeling of not quite having the strength or the clarity you used to. My TO Pure Gummies are the first ever longevity gummies that support your cellular energy so you feel strong, clear and vibrant all year long. They're the only clinically proven gummy that helps renew your cell's powerhouses so you can show up as your best self every decade. Think of it like charging your internal batteries. Instead of pushing harder, give your body the support it needs to stay strong, capable and vibrant over time. Right now you can get 30% off your first month of mid appear gummies. Go to timeline.com midlife30 that's timeline.com midlife30 while the offer lasts hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me, the show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor and their hard earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91 year old mom Judy to get her take on it all. Wiser Than Me from lemonade Media premieres November 12th. Wherever you get your podcasts, Lemonada.

[B]

Hey.

[A]

Midlifers, just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of My so Called Midlife Ad free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to an exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show and Apple Podcasts make life suck less with fewer ads. Lemonada Premium. Welcome to My so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. Happy New Year friends. We made it. There's something about this time of year that forces big questions to the surface. January is like when routines reset, resolutions get written and tested and fertilized many couples, cracks that were easy to ignore suddenly just feel impossible to avoid. Did you know the first working Monday of January has even earned a nickname, Divorce Day.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It's when divorce lawyers see more calls than any other day of the year. That's why I am so grateful to. Welcome back today's guest. Psychotherapist, writer and longtime divorce group leader, Una Metz is joining us again to offer her signature compassionate wisdom for people navigating some of the hardest transitions of their lives. Una and I talk about why midlife is such a pivotal moment in relationships. How to fight better instead of dirtier. And how to make decisions from a place of self respect rather than fear. Whether you're happily married, thinking about divorce, or currently going through one, or just want to support a friend in the process, this conversation, it's for you. Let's get into it. How are you? It's so good to have you back.

[B]

I am so happy to be back.

[A]

This is gonna be great. So last time you were here, we were all so obsessed with like your tough love and your clarity and before we dive right in. Cause I loved your book and I have so many questions and so many thoughts. I just wanna check in. How's midlife treating you?

[B]

Midlife is going well.

[A]

Your skin looks great, so I think it is going well.

[B]

Thank you. I know that you recently turned a big number and I was thinking what a great number to be. I passed that number a little while ago. But it's a great number to be so, you know, enjoy this decade before, you know, the body really starts to, you know, have some aches. More aches and pains. Yeah.

[A]

I appreciate you saying that. Look, I have not been excited to turn 50. I've had feelings. Right. And. But there was something about it then happening and the next day I was like, I feel great and I'm excited. It was like this like switch that happened that just like freed me in some ways. And I. So anyway, I am actually thrilled about the next stage of my life.

[B]

Good. There's a lot of cool people who are 50 and over, you know.

[A]

I know. So it's a cool club. It is a cool club. And I have like, I don't know, it's like no fucks given. Like, I feel like there's like so much clarity that I feel and so much like empowerment that I feel. That it's amazing. So your book Unhitched comes out next week.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Congrats.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I'm not getting divorced. I'm not planning a divorce. But I loved it anyway.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I loved it because it's unique. Because one of the reasons why the book is unique is it prepares you, as you say, for the emotional arc of divorce.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Which is what I've seen so many of my friends struggled with. So what made you decide to write this as a guide that was specifically for women, to guide them through divorce?

[B]

So I'm a therapist, and I've been a therapist for 30 years. And 15 years ago, I started running these divorce support groups for women after I went through my own divorce. And the women in the group, they taught me really what it was like to have this emotional journey of divorce. And I was there kind of as their guide to help them connect to each other, to help them connect to me, to provide a little bit of education along the way. But they connected to each other. And so I learned so much about the emotional journey of divorce from the women in my practice, you know, who I was seeing every single week. I have three groups. I meet with them weekly for 15 years. So I've seen hundreds of women. And I really wanted a book to recommend to them. And I used to recommend this book that was written in 1992. Of course, it got more and more and more outdated. And so I finally said to myself, I have to write this book. Like, I know about the emotional journey of divorce, both personally and certainly professionally, and the book doesn't exist, so I have to write it. So I just got out my laptop one day after one of my big birthdays and sat down and started writing, and the rest is history.

[A]

You know, one of the things that you say in your book, which I thought was really powerful is you say divorce can be a way for women to embark on a journey of self discovery and growth.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I imagine that when those women are in these groups, that's what they're talking about. Like, what's next? What do I do next?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How do you make sure that you get on that path and that you really can answer that question, that emotional question of like, what's next?

[B]

Oh, such a good question. I think the biggest thing that you need to do to make sure you get on that path is to do the grieving? And I think when people don't get on the path of self discovery, it's because they're distracting themselves. They're not feeling their feelings or they're like really, really holding on, like this super attachment to their ex, to their divorce. You know, I was saying the other day, like, the opposite of love. Is not hate. Right? Because hate, both love and hate keep you attached. And in order to move on in your divorce, you have to let go. And in order to let go, you have to do the work of grieving. And in order to grieve, you have to feel. Right? So if you're going to do the work of grieving, which is all about feeling, then you can get to the point of letting go, and then you can really discover, like, who you are and who you want to be.

[A]

So you said there's a quote in your book where you said, women grieve and men replace. And I thought that that was so true. Right. I was thinking about, why is it so hard for us to grieve? Like, why is it so destabilizing for us to, like, be in the fields? Is that because for so long as women, part of our coping mechanism is.

[B]

Not to feel Right, Right, Right. Absolutely. I mean, we're busy, right? As you know and you talk about all the time, if we're mothers, we are busy and we don't have time. Right? But we have to make the time to feel and to grieve. When we're going through something like divorce or death or, you know, illness or any major life transition, we have to make the time to feel. And I do think that women are better equipped to do that than men and have more spaces to do that and than men do. And I hope we can all create spaces and permission for men to be able to feel more, because I think just replacing is not. It's not a good solution.

[A]

So how do we do that? Because I. So I'm somebody. Like, I cry once every three years. Like, I have a really hard time. And there are moments, right, where I. Especially as the older I've gotten, I'm actually much more in touch with my emotions. So I know. And sometimes, like, I know when a cry is coming. You know what I'm talking about? Like, when you're, like, not in a good place, I just need to cry. And for me, I don't know how I go on Netflix. I'm like, what is the saddest movie? Probably about a dog, right? That I can put on that will allow myself to release. How do we. What are some. Like, you've got some great exercises. How do we breathe? How do we do it? What do we do? Like, what's the thing? Yep.

[B]

Well, one of the reasons that I run divorce support groups is I think it can be really helpful to grieve in community. Some people are like, oh, I don't I would never want to cry in front of somebody else. That would be so weird.

[A]

Yeah, that's what's coming up for me as you're saying that when I'm like, what? I don't want community. What are you talking about? Right.

[B]

But what I find is when. Maybe not the first time, although oftentimes the first time somebody comes into my group, but sometimes not the first time, but when somebody else can put into words what you're feeling. Like sometimes our feelings are really confusing. Right. We can't quite figure out what they are. But in the support groups that I run, somebody else might say exactly what it is that I'm feeling. And you're like, oh, wait a second, me too. I can feel it. Or you can feel so much for another person who's going through what you're going through. And you know, Reshma, you say, well, you only cry once every three years. Part of the reason is because you're not going through a divorce.

[A]

True. I thought having young children would make me cry again. Enough. And to be fair, both my parents are still God, you know, alive. I have three friends who've lost their mothers in the past two months. Like, there's a lot of grief coming on the horizon.

[B]

Yes, there is.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so that's when you. And maybe for many people, the divorce is the first big moment like that that happens kind of in their life. You close the book by talking about how to prepare children for the journey ahead and co parenting. What are some quick tips?

[B]

Well, you know, the old research on divorce said that divorce was bad for kids. Right. Full stop. And now we know the new divorce says that conflict is what is bad for kids. Not necessarily divorce, but conflict. And so I think the most important thing that co parents can do is to reduce the conflict between them, which can be really hard and certainly to reduce any conflict that's in front of the kids.

[A]

See, this sounds crazy to me because, like, how do you not have conflict in front of the kids? And I've kind of told myself, like, the conflict is actually making my children more resilient, you know, because it. I just, I find couples who don't argue or fight. I don't know, I feel like something's off.

[B]

Uh huh. Uh huh.

[A]

Maybe I'm off.

[B]

Well, I think it is true that couples fight, but I think when you're getting a divorce, you're not fighting and making up. You're fighting and fighting and fighting. Right. And I think when kids see you fight and then make up, that's a good model for them. Right. I mean, as long as the fighting doesn't get down and dirty. We talked about that last time. Right. So as long as your fighting is not down and dirty, you're fighting, you're making up when you're married and when you want to keep your marriage going. I think in divorce, people don't make up a lot because they're not concerned with keeping their marriage going. Right. They're just fighting to fight. And that's hard for the kids because then the kids feel protective and they don't know what's going to happen next.

[A]

And they can't see the signs. Right. Of like, of recovery. So one of the things that blew up the Internet last time we talked was 70% of heterosexual divorces are initiated by women. And that is not kind of counterintuitive. Right. And we talked last time about why are women initiating the vast majority of divorces? What are the pressure points that finally push them to leave? So let's start there, and then I have some questions into those questions.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You know, divorce professionals used to say that people leave a marriage because of the three A's. Abuse, addiction, and affairs. And that's true. Right. Still, those are reasons that a lot of people leave. But what I'm seeing a lot in my practice right now is a couple of other reasons, too. One of the reasons I'm seeing is this inequality that we're talking so much about. Inequality in parenting, inequality in home care. Right. You know, there's this research out there that when a man and a woman get married, the woman has seven more hours of housework to do per week and the man has one less hour. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that gets exhausting for women. And I have seen lots of times where both parents are working full time. Right. And yet they're not both working full time in parenting or in caring for the house. And so that's one major one. And then I think the other one is this issue of passivity where I see really very competent, successful women married to highly educated. You know, I'm in Boston. We have a lot of educated men around here. Right. A lot of educated people. And I see these very, very educated men with long periods of unemployment or underemployment. Like, there's an extreme passivity that comes in the marriage. And women also get exhausted by that. They say to me, my husband is like an additional child. It's not like a true partner.

[A]

I hear that a lot. And oftentimes they're not doing the extra housework. So it's like, right? And that's when that drives, like my friends, bonkers. January always comes with pressure to reinvent yourself. New habits, new rules, a whole new you. But midlife has taught me that real change is not about overhauling everything. It's about taking care of what already exists. And as I get older, I want something simple that actually supports my body. That is why I want to share my TO Pure gummies. As we age, our cells make less energy. That decline shows up as fatigue, slower recovery, and that feeling of not quite having the strength or the clarity you used to. My TO Pure Gummies are the first ever longevity gummies that support your cellular energy so you feel strong, clear and vibrant all year long. They're the only clinically proven gummy that helps renew your cell's powerhouses so you can show up as your best self every decade. Think of it like charging your internal batteries instead of pushing harder, give your body the support it needs to stay strong, capable and vibrant over time. Right now you can get 30% off your first month of mid appear gummies. Go to timeline.com midlife30 that's timeline.com midlife30 while the offer lasts if you're like me, you're probably wanting to start the year off right with a wardrobe refresh. Quince has you covered with luxe essentials that feel effortless and look polished. They're perfect for layering, mixing, and building a wardrobe that lasts. I just did my New Year's shopping haul with Quince because they make great style feel easy. Their Mongolian cashmere sweaters are incredibly soft and feel as luxe as designer pieces, but without the markup. I've also been reaching for their silk silk tops constantly. They make even the simplest outfit feel elevated, and their denim is perfectly cut and holds its shape, which is not easy to find. These are pieces I'm wearing on repeat and they still look and feel great. And Quince works with ethical, trusted factories and uses premium materials, then prices everything far below what you expect from traditional luxury brands. Refresh your wardrobe with quints. Do not wait. Go to quince.commidlife for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I N C E.com midlife for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinn's.com midlife hello, I'm James Corden and on my new show, this Life of Mine, I sit down each week with some of the most fascinating people on planet Earth from Dr. Dre to Julianne.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

We talk about the people, places, possessions, music, and memories that made them who they are. These are intimate conversations full of stories that you've never heard before. This Life of Mine premieres October 21st.

[B]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

So it's interesting because I think that this generation of women, part of the reason why they're not getting married is I often hear from them. And you see in the research is that, well, marriage is better for men, not for women. It's actually not a good deal for women. You know, but one of the things that your book confirmed for me though, is divorce is a good deal for women. Divorce.

[B]

Well, healthy marriage is a good deal for both partners. Right, right, right.

[A]

Thank you for this. Because I'm not saying everybody should, like, get a divorce.

[B]

I am pro healthy marriage. Pro, pro love. But yes, women do better when they're divorced than men.

[A]

Because why men try to replace. Right. Yes. So do you find that when most women divorce, it's clear when most men divorce, they try to get remarried, but women don't.

[B]

Oftentimes they don't. So I have some women in my practice who are like, I really want to date again. Great. And I have a lot of them who say, I'm not interested in dating again. And then there's a third category of people who say, I want to date again, but I will never live with somebody again. Right. I'm happy to go out with somebody on a Saturday night, but I'm not going to be picking up somebody's dirty socks ever again. Right.

[A]

When I think about the friends of mine or the people I know that are getting a divorce, they're not getting it because of the A's. It's not abuse, not addiction, and it's not affairs.

[B]

It really is inequality.

[A]

It is. It's going to get to a place and they're like, the kids are gone. It's not worth it. Like, I'm literally having another child that I did not sign up for.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

If we think that like, actually marriages are good for society, I do buy that. Right. I think children are good for society. Having children are good for society. Let me say that. Right?

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

This seems like it's something that, like if we as a culture said, hey, let's try to reduce the divorce rate.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

We could do it.

[B]

Yeah. We gotta send men to parenting school.

[A]

Right. Why don't we? Why don't we.

[B]

Patriarchy.

[A]

Patriarchy. What else?

[B]

Misogyny. We have such an entrenched belief in our country that women are the ones who should be doing it all. They should be the ones who are keeping the family together. They are the ones who should be taking care of the kids. You know, it's like, a sign of weakness still for so many men to, like, be doing the menial job of, you know, taking care of the kids or taking care of the cooking or whatever. Right.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I mean, there's so much work we have to do to change the gender roles in our country. Yeah.

[A]

I don't know what's going on, but, like, there's been so many articles on divorce. Maybe everyone knows your book is coming out.

[B]

Oh, God, yes. So many.

[A]

And, like, unquiet quitting, which made the WhatsApp chat in my girlfriend circle. Right. Because a lot of our, like. Yep. We're ahead of the trends. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And a lot of women are checked out of their marriage, but they don't want to get a divorce. And it's often because of the finances or the logistics. What do you make of that?

[B]

The finances and logistics are really hard. And here's a little theory I have. You know, mortgage rates are pretty high right now, and I think when mortgage rates go down, we're going to see an increase in divorce. Because I think there's a lot of people who are holding on right now who cannot afford to refinance their house or to move into two separate houses. Right. My mortgage rate is like 2.35%. You know, you're not going to trade that in for 6.5% mortgage.

[A]

No. And there's no selling homes right now. It doesn't even make sense.

[B]

Right, right. And so I think when the mortgage rates go down, I think we're going to see an uptick. I also think, Reshma, people are really stressed right now. I see it in my practice all the time. There is so much weight that people are carrying in the world. And I think we're all, like, doing a good job at finding little moments of joy and stuff like that. But we're all carrying a lot of weight about what's going on in the world. And it's hard to take on a whole new project of the logistics of a divorce, the finances of a divorce, when there's so much weight in the world. So I think actually when things get a little better, because the divorce rate right now is actually the lowest, it's Been in decades. It's not even 50%. It's 42%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Is it because it's too expensive to get a divorce or we just can't afford it?

[B]

I think that's one of the reasons. I mean, I also think the marriage rate is down. People are getting married later. People tend to get divorced when they get married at very early ages. So I think there's a whole variety of reasons that that's happening.

[A]

So is that a good thing? Like, I look at my parents. I think I told you this maybe last time. It's like, I always thought my parents should get divorced. I thought they were gonna divorce for sure. Like, they were just, you know, you know, the mismatch. But now I just took my father to Italy for his 80th birthday, and those two are thick as thieves. I saw them, like, holding hands walking down the Spanish Steps. I'm like, what is this?

[B]

Right, right. They stuck it out.

[A]

They stuck it out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So how do you know? Because I'll be honest. Like, I was reading some of the stories in your book of what drove people to divorce, and I was like this.

[B]

Right. The problem is we never would have known what would have happened with your parents. You know, at some point, you can't get divorced. Yeah.

[A]

Because you're saying they could have had better lives.

[B]

Yeah. Well. Or just equally as good or differently good or. We don't know. Right. We don't know. And so I think it is important if your marriage goes through a rough patch, that you really try to work it out. Right. For all kinds of reasons. And then the question of, like, when do you give in and when do you give up on your marriage is such a personal question that has to do with so many different factors. I mean, one of the biggest factors I think, is, like, do you agree on what the problems are and are you both in it to solve it, or is one person saying, we don't have any problems here, or, you're the only problem here. Right. Or are you both saying, yeah, we have a dynamic that doesn't work? We should really work on that?

[A]

Well, I think one of the other thing that I see is that in this kind of quiet quitting of marriages is that people are delaying the legal divorce and they're living as roommates, and they're doing it for the kids. They're doing it for financial reasons, and for. And after a while, you're kind of like, okay, I guess this is it, but is that really what we should be doing?

[B]

You know, I think it's case by case. Right. I mean, if you can live together and be cooperative roommates and take care of your kids together, you know, that's one thing that's pretty hard to do. I think it's pretty hard to have a loving marriage that turns into a roommate situation where there's nothing kind of resentment floating around. Or when, like, what happens then when one person wants to date or when both people want to date? And where do you bring the person that you're dating home to? Even if you're saying, okay, we're, we're not romantic anymore, we're allowed to date. Well, then what? You're going to date somebody and you're like, oh, yeah, and I live with my spouse and my kids, you know, it's just not, it's hard to go anywhere from there.

[A]

Yeah. You're stifling kind of like what you're saying. Divorce is like the next with the growth piece of it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And the identity. Yeah.

[A]

I do want to talk to you. This is like a non sequitur a little bit. But like, I want you to explain to our listeners about no fault divorce. Why was it in Project 2025? Why do they want to get rid of no fault divorce? Because I don't think people truly understand the impact of that. And how would it shape divorce in America?

[B]

Right. So it would shape divorce in America in a huge way. And divorce in America, the laws are state by state. So there's not going to be, I mean, unless, you know, anything could happen, I guess, but hopefully there won't be a national law that comes down about divorce.

[A]

Never say never.

[B]

Yeah, I know. It will go state by state and probably it will start in the red states. We've already seen it starting to happen. Right now we have no fault divorce. Okay. And what that means is that you're allowed to get divorced without having to provide some huge level of proof about what happened in your marriage. If they get rid of no fault divorce, what's going to happen is people are going to need to prove like that they were abused, for instance, that their spouse was addicted to, that their marriage broke down in such a way that they are allowed to get divorced. And what it's going to do, Reshma, it's going to trap, especially it's going to trap women in abusive relationships. Because can you imagine being an abused woman and having to appear in court? Right. Having to hire an attorney to appear in court to give testimony about the ways in which you were abused, some of which you might be able to See, with pictures and oftentimes not. But even pictures. Right. Oh, look, look at my face. It was all bruised because he pushed me down the stairs. And then his attorney comes in and says, that's absolutely not what happened. He wasn't even in the house that night. How do you prove that he did that? Do you have a videotape of him pushing you down the stairs? No, I don't, but I went to the doctor. Well, we don't know what happened. So the people who are going to benefit from getting rid of no fault divorce are divorce attorneys because they're going to have huge, huge caseloads. Right. With lots and lots and lots of evidence and things like that. And the other people who are going to benefit are people who want to control their spouses and keep them right where they want them.

[A]

Well, also men, because if 70% are divorces.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And men, because. Right. 70% of divorces are initiated. It's funny, as you were talking to you, I'm also thinking if more and more women are seeking a divorce not because of the A's, but because of the inequality in the marriage.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I also can see, and again, in a culture which is saying, well, women, that is your role.

[B]

That's right. That's right. That's right. And how do you prove that?

[A]

How do you prove that? What if a judge is like, tough, you know what I mean?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Sorry. Not sorry, suck it up.

[B]

And what if you go to court? I mean, it's one thing if you go to court with inequality and the judge says sorry, but what if you go and you're trying to prove that it's abuse and the judge says, sorry, there's not enough evidence, then you're going to go home with your husband, your abusive husband, who's seen that you're going to try to, you know, say that he's an abuser in court. And it's also, I mean, talk about privacy is going to go out the window, right? Yeah. Because that's all going to be court record. So the kids can see it, the employers can see it. I mean, it's a terrible, terrible idea.

[A]

How big is this? Like, how many states, what are we talking about, the magnitude of this and what should we be doing to, like, mobilize against it?

[B]

There are several states that have, on all different kinds, like, oh, you have to say you're going to be separated for a year before you're allowed to file for divorce or you have to have a witness in place that witnesses, you know, that you've been Separated or witnesses the abuse. So I think what we can do is we can pay attention to new laws that are being put out there and make sure that we really give testimony about why this is going to be so dangerous. Women are going to die.

[A]

Yes, they are.

[B]

That's what's going to happen. Women are going to die. I'm sure the divorce rate will go down. Right. But at what cost?

[A]

At what cost?

[B]

The murder rate goes up, the divorce rate goes down. I mean, you know, and I wish that I was being, you know, alarmist about this, but it is starting to happen, and I think it is part of the plan of, like, women are not allowed to control their bodies anymore.

[A]

Yeah. Or their choices or any aspect of their lives.

[B]

Yeah. Hello, I'm Gretchen Rubin. And I'm Lori Gottlieb. We're two friends, one a happiness researcher.

[A]

And the other a therapist.

[B]

And we are here to tackle the problem problems of everyday life with all of you, from big issues to small. We'll share advice and fresh perspectives, and we'll also highlight responses from you, our listeners, to the questions we discuss. Whether it's that pet peeve that's been bugging you for years, a tricky dilemma, or just something you've always wondered about, we'll talk it through the since you asked podcast from Lemonada media premieres on September 23, wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

So for listeners who love someone, a friend or a relative that's going through a divorce, what is the right way to show up for them? You know, in your book, you talk about, like, you kind of need, like, this tribe, like, an activity friend, a parent friend. Can you walk us through that? Because I thought that that was just kind of brilliant about what your, you know, what your team should look like when you're going through this.

[B]

Yes. It's so important to have a team, I think, you know, we're all busy, right? And so sometimes women come to me and they're like, you know, I've got this best friend, and I've told her everything, but, you know, she didn't call me back. And I'm like, you know what? She's busy, too. She has her own life. You can't put everything onto one person, right? So you do need, like, somebody who's, like, handy, right, who can, like, come fix your damn printer when it breaks down again, Right. And you need somebody that you can, like, call to celebrate with, like, oh, my God, this great thing just happened to me. I'm so excited. And you need somebody who's, like, A really good listener when things are really hard, who's not going to try to talk you out out of it, but who's just going to listen and be like, yes, that is so hard. Right. And I think friends can be really important. I think it's so important to have divorced friends or people who are going through it because they will get it in a different way. Other people won't get it. And then you also need, like, your emergency contact, parent friend. Whenever I have somebody come into my practice and come into the support group, I have two whole sessions with them when I ask them all kinds of questions. And I'm asking them about really, really painful stuff about their marriage, their marriage, breaking down, their divorce. And one of the hardest questions that I ask them at the very, very end, I have them fill out my paperwork and I ask them for their emergency contact person, and they're like, oh, I hadn't thought of that yet. They're going through a divorce. Who am I going to call? You know, who's my emergency contact? So that's another person you need, like, who's going to be the person that's going to drive you home from your colonoscopy? Right.

[A]

Listen, I think for me, 13 years into marriage, my kids 5 and 10, and I'm blessed to have a lot of friends in my life. But, like, it's different. Right. The older you get when you're married with kids. They don't like. So how do you like? I imagine when people are going through a divorce, they can look around and be like, oh, no.

[B]

Right, right. That's why it's so important to find other people who are going through it.

[A]

And so it's really then joining a divorce support group or something, right?

[B]

Yes. Yep. Whether it's online or in person, it's so important. And I hope I wrote my book unhitched. I wrote it to be a companion. You know, a lot of people don't have access to a support group. There's not that many of them out there, you know, and that's one of the reasons I wrote it. Because sometimes you just need to have that companion, like, right there in your pocket or right there. You know, there's gonna be an audiobook, too, right there in your ear so that you don't feel so alone. Cause a lot of people going through divorce feel alone.

[A]

That's right. You talk about forgiveness in your book. Forgiveness is like something I really struggle with. I'm a Scorpio. It's like, not my gym, but it's like it's my aspir. You see what I'm saying? Like, I don't really know how, but I. Like, it's one of the things on my vision board to be someone who can easily forgive. What role does forgiveness really play in divorce?

[B]

Oh, such a good question. Because people have a lot of reactions to forgiveness, just like you. They're like, look, my ex was awful. They did an awful, awful thing to me. Why should I ever forgive them? I mean, the first thing I'll say is how important it is to forgive yourself in divorce, because divorce is going to bring out the worst. You know, it brings out the worst in us. I mean, any kind of real stress brings out the worst. So you're probably not going to act in your best way. And so can you look at the context of your marriage and of your divorce, and within that context, can you forgive yourself for the ways that you acted? And then can you learn from it? Like, not just forgive, but take the forgiveness and learn, like, how am I going to do this differently the next time? And if you want to forgive your ex or somebody else who's wronged you or who's harmed you, that can be between you and you. It doesn't have to be between you and your ex. And it's not about like, oh, now I forgive you. I think what you did was right, or, I forgive you, so I want you to do that again. That harmful thing again, right? It's not about any of that. It's about letting go, really. It's about like, can I see what you did within the context? And then say, like, I'm not going to hold on to that anymore. Not even necessarily for the other person, but for yourself. Because again, you know, that's. There's that saying, let go or be dragged. Right? And there are some people who, you know, they will hold on to their ex, to the narrative, to the divorce forever, you know, and that doesn't help. That doesn't help them at all.

[A]

It seems like it's much easier said than done. So what is. You have some really great exercises in your book. Like, I love this, like, somatic release. I'm going to do it. What are some exercises that you can do to release yourself from that?

[B]

Well, I think the first one is really understanding. Like, what is it giving you to hold on? Right? Like, what is the purpose of holding on? Is it so that you can be a victim? And what is the purpose of being a victim in this case? And really having an understanding? And then I think making sure that you have gone through all the feelings because sometimes people aren't ready to forgive or let go because they haven't allowed themselves to feel fully angry or fully sad about what's happened to them. So really allowing yourself to kind of do that, you know, back to, like, crying in whatever way you need. If you need to watch a movie with a dog so that you can cry, you can do that, you know.

[A]

But it's like completion. I think that's a really powerful point, Una, which is like. It's like what I say about my party, right? Like, I completed it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think oftentimes we just don't complete. You know what I mean? And then we're not able to kind of move on. For women who are listening, who know they need to leave, but they're just scared, Right? What's one small step you can take?

[B]

Mm. Mm. That's such a good question. I think one small step is really to practice separation. If you are not ready to leave, there's still things that you can do to practice separation. Almost like the quiet quitting. Right. Like, you can make plans on your own. You can go on a trip by yourself. You know, some people, do they have parenting nights. They set up a system in the house where it's like, okay, Monday night's my night for the kids. Tuesday night's your night. They're not leaving yet, but they are separating in the house. You know, can you move into a separate bedroom? Can you invest in something that's just for you? Some hobby that you gave up in your 20s that you want to go back to? You know, maybe it's tango dancing. Maybe it's pottery class. Maybe it's writing, creative writing class. Like, what is it that you can invest in that's just for you? Anything you can do to, like, strengthen your own self. Because if you do decide to go through divorce, you know, it's hard, it's stressful, it's heartbreaking. It's very difficult. And there can be, like, a really wonderful, you know, growth and healing and transformation on the other side, but it takes a while to get there.

[A]

Yeah. Last thing. Tell us about your upcoming book events and where listeners can find. You are like the divorce guru of America. I love this book. I love you. It's very true.

[B]

You are. Oh, oh. And you're the child care guru of America. Oh, my God. New Mexico. You're changing the world. You are changing the world.

[A]

I'm just trying.

[B]

So, Reshma, all the events are on my website, which is unametz.com double O N A M E T Z.com I also have a ton of free resources on my website. You don't need to put in your email address to get any of them, but I've got all kinds of podcasts and articles and legal and financial resources as well, so people can go to my website. There's a couple of online events and a very special event coming up in Boston in February, so check out the website, follow the events, and I can't wait to see you. And please, please, please listeners. If you're out there and you come to one of my events, please come up and say hi, I heard you on Reshma and I'd love to meet you in person.

[A]

Oh thank you and Amet, thank you. I'm always struck by how grounding it feels to talk to Una. Her new book, the Essential Divorce Guide for Women, is a practical, deeply human guide for anyone standing at a crossroads and wondering what comes Next. It's out January 13th. Grab your copy where you get your books before you go. Thank you for listening to My so Called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content you can't hear anywhere else. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts. Or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com My so called Midlife is brought to you by Moms First. Come see what we're all about at MomsFirst US. I'm your host and executive producer, Reshma Sajani. Our senior producer is Katie Ecstak Cordova. Our producer is Beth Rowe, and our sound engineer and editor is Mary Kelly of Sweater Weather. Our theme music was composed by Ivan Kureyev and performed by Ivan, which with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltok. Scheduling support from Cindy Cook. Sales and distribution is by Lemonada Media. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know what you're doing in Midlife. Follow My so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership and be sure to follow me rashmistajani and moms first on Instagram, LinkedIn and substack. Thanks and we'll be back next week. Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts, and hit subscribe. Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium.

[B]

Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.