Introducing: Hello Menopause!

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Introducing: Hello Menopause!"

Podcast Information:

• Title: My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
• Host/Author: Lemonada Media
• Episode: Introducing: Hello Menopause!
• Release Date: July 2, 2025

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Introduction

In the inaugural episode of "Hello Menopause!", host Stacey London engages in a candid and enlightening conversation with Reshma Saujani, founder of Girls Who Code and author of My So-Called Midlife. Together, they explore the multifaceted experience of midlife, particularly focusing on menopause, and discuss how societal expectations and personal transformations intersect during this pivotal stage of life.

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Midlife: A Groundhog's Day Feeling

Reshma Saujani begins by expressing her sense of monotony in midlife:

"Midlife feels like Groundhog's Day." [02:42]

She emphasizes the importance of embracing imperfection to feel truly alive, highlighting how repeated failures and imperfections in midlife can foster personal growth and resilience.

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Shifting from Perfection to Curiosity

Stacey London relates to Reshma's feelings, sharing her transition from striving for a "glossy" life to embracing curiosity and learning:

"After menopause, I feel like I'm in my inquisitive stage... All I want to do is learn." [04:10]

This shift marks a departure from the relentless pursuit of perfection toward a more exploratory and fulfilling approach to life.

Reshma Saujani echoes this sentiment, recounting how perfectionism was ingrained from a young age:

"There are a lot of things... how to be a good girl, how to gravitate toward the things that we're good at." [07:05]

Both speakers highlight the liberating effect of midlife, where the fear of judgment diminishes, allowing for genuine self-expression and exploration.

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Societal Structures and Gender Dynamics

The conversation delves into how societal expectations and gender roles impact midlife experiences. Reshma Saujani introduces the concept of the "midlife penalty," paralleling it with the "motherhood penalty":

"The midlife penalty is the physical, economic, and emotional costs that you bear for simply getting older." [30:31]

She discusses how older women face significant gender pay gaps and structural barriers that exacerbate economic and emotional struggles during midlife.

Stacey London adds to this by highlighting the societal pressures women face regarding appearance and relevance:

"It doesn't mean we're not getting better... we are still talking about this in a way that does not serve us." [27:40]

This underscores the persistent influence of patriarchy in shaping women's midlife experiences.

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Personal Journeys and Building Community

Both hosts share personal anecdotes about their journeys through midlife and menopause. Reshma Saujani reflects on the lack of a "playbook" for women navigating midlife:

"I want to write the playbook. I want to... create one." [48:53]

Stacey London discusses her feelings of loss and identity crisis during perimenopause, emphasizing the importance of authentic conversations:

"I want to talk about bigger things and deeper things and meaningful things that are still in service to other people." [50:31]

They both stress the need for community support, allowing women to feel seen and connected during this transformative period.

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Advocating for Structural Changes

The discussion turns to the necessity of advocating for societal and structural changes to better support midlife women. Reshma Saujani argues for policies similar to paid leave and childcare to address the "midlife penalty":

"These are structural things. These are things that we need to fix and change in society, just like childcare and paid leave." [33:04]

Stacey London reinforces the idea that addressing menopause and midlife requires collective effort and structural reforms rather than individual adjustments alone.

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Teaching Bravery and Letting Go

The hosts explore the concept of teaching bravery as an antidote to perfectionism. Reshma Saujani shares her journey towards decompression and embracing the present:

"I'm trying to figure out how to... just like, I'm trying to do that." [39:18]

Stacey London echoes this by emphasizing the importance of curiosity and the willingness to try new things without the fear of failure:

"You can fail at something and it not be the end of the world." [43:46]

They advocate for prioritizing personal well-being and joy over societal expectations of continuous achievement.

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Creating a Midlife Playbook

Towards the end of the episode, Reshma Saujani discusses the surprising positivity she found among midlife individuals during her podcast research:

"There's a lot of happy people in midlife... people have these incredible experiences." [47:30]

She expresses a desire to create a comprehensive playbook for women in midlife, highlighting the need for practical guidance and shared wisdom to navigate this stage effectively.

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Conclusion: Embracing the Renaissance of Midlife

The episode concludes with an emphasis on viewing midlife as a renaissance rather than a crisis. Stacey London and Reshma Saujani encourage women to embrace this period with curiosity, community, and courage. They advocate for redefining midlife through empowerment and structural support, transforming it into a vibrant and fulfilling chapter of life.

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Key Takeaways

1. Embrace Imperfection: Letting go of perfectionism can lead to personal growth and a more fulfilling midlife experience.
2. Shift to Curiosity: Transitioning from striving for excellence to exploring new interests fosters joy and self-discovery.
3. Address Structural Barriers: Advocacy for societal and economic reforms is crucial to support midlife women effectively.
4. Build Community: Connecting with others provides essential support and alleviates feelings of isolation during midlife.
5. Teach Bravery: Encouraging courage and the willingness to take risks can help women navigate the challenges of midlife.
6. Develop a Playbook: Creating comprehensive guidance for midlife can empower women to embrace this stage with confidence and purpose.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Midlife feels like Groundhog's Day." — Reshma Saujani [02:42]
• "After menopause, I feel like I'm in my inquisitive stage... All I want to do is learn." — Stacey London [04:10]
• "The midlife penalty is the physical, economic, and emotional costs that you bear for simply getting older." — Reshma Saujani [30:31]
• "I want to write the playbook. I want to... create one." — Reshma Saujani [48:53]
• "You can fail at something and it not be the end of the world." — Stacey London [43:46]

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This episode serves as a foundational conversation for women navigating midlife, offering both personal insights and a call to action for broader societal change. It encourages embracing this stage with authenticity, community, and resilience.

Transcript

[Reshma Saujani]

Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium On Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe. Make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. I'm Josh Mankiewicz and I hope you'll join us for Season four of Dateline Missing in America. In each episode of Dateline's award winning series, we will focus on one missing.

[Stacey London]

Persons case and hear from the families, the friends, and the investigators, all desperate to find them. You will want to listen closely. Maybe you could help investigators solve a mystery.

[Reshma Saujani]

Dateline Missing in America Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Lemonade.

[Stacey London]

Hey friends, the views of our guests do not necessarily reflect the views of let's Talk Menopause let's Talk Menopause does not provide medical advice. The content in this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions that you may have. Welcome to hello Menopause. I'm your host, Stacey London. Hello Menopause is changing the conversation around menopause. In every episode, we explore the physical, emotional and mental changes that women experience during this transformative stage in life. This season, we're so thankful to our sponsor, Versali. The options for menopause care can be overwhelming, which is why they've done the research to help you navigate all of them. Versali is a one stop shop for expert advice, curated products, and access to virtual care. It's where menopause makes sense. Visit Versaly.com to learn more. Today on hello Menopause, we're getting bold. My guest is Reshma Sojani, founder of Girls who Code, bestselling author, CEO of Moms first, and the host of the podcast My so Called Midlife. She has spent over a decade building movements to fight for the economic empowerment of women and girls. She's also a fierce advocate for reframing how we talk about women's health and caregiving, especially during midlife. Please welcome Reshma Saujani to hello Menopause. You were saying a lot of midlife feels boring.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, midlife feels like groundhog's Day. And I think part of why, like, pursuing imperfection in midlife, I think is so important is that imperfection for me makes me feel really alive. So, like, when I give a speech and I don't hit it, you know, or I'm.

[Stacey London]

When don't you hit it?

[Reshma Saujani]

No, no, no, no, no. I don't hit it. Like, there's a. There's. There's a lot that go. You know, it's. Or if I go on TV and I just. I stumble over my words or I don't say the right thing, you know, I come off of that. I'm like, great, because I want to get better. Because, like, when I. I'm obsessed with athletes, and I think to be really great, you have to suck. And so I think what's so amazing about understanding this in midlife is, like, we have a lot more. No Fs given. Like, we have a lot more. Like, you have it. You gotta. You gotta try. Really. I gotta. You gotta try really hard to hurt my feelings now. Cause I. I've heard everything, you know, I mean, I've been. Everything's been said to me. So, like, for me, I don't really care about what people think. And so then combining that with, like, pursuing excellence in is, like, incredible. It's like nirvana.

[Stacey London]

Yes, I. I really hear you. And the reason that. That. That really resonates with me is that I used to say that, you know, sort of before menopause and the menopause years that I was in my acquisitive phase, I needed the house, I needed the clothes, I needed the, you know, perfect relationship.

[Reshma Saujani]

I.

[Stacey London]

Everything had to look glossy because it was glossy on tv, right? And that was sort of my standard, which is not realistic at all. And after menopause, I feel like I'm in my inquisitive stage, that all I want to do. I feel like I used to be the smartest person in the room, which is, like, cocky and stupid to begin with, but also that now I want to be the dumbest person in the room. All I want to do is learn. All I want to do is be curious. It's. It's why I'm starting an internship with, like, a master cabinet maker. Like, it has nothing to do with my life, but it's like, why not learn all these skills? And you were saying before, perfection is boring. But as a kid, and definitely throughout my younger years, I thought, if I can't win, I won't play. I don't want to look down.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's right.

[Stacey London]

I don't want to look like I don't know how to do something, I don't want to learn. And now that that kind of no fucks given is like, I don't care.

[Reshma Saujani]

If I look stupid.

[Stacey London]

I wish I hadn't wasted that time in my youth and I taken swimming lessons earlier or learned how to build a cabinet earlier. All things that I was afraid of. And that really goes away. I think once you are in a position where midlife, you know, assuming you're coming to menopause, chronologically, that there is this sense of, I don't have the same amount of time. There is no someday. If I'm going to do it, I want to do it now. And we get to kind of grab hold of our destinies and what you were talking about before with athletes, this pursuit of excellence, discipline, repetition, consistency. Sounds boring, but it also creates greatness.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, I love what you're saying, Stacy. I think it's so powerful for people to truly understand because I do feel like it can be such a gift. So right when we're young, we learn around like 8 years old, like what we're good at and what we're not good at. I always remember this story. There was a bunch of journalists that had had a group of like 8 year olds and it was boys and girls, and they're giving them lemonade and they spike the lemonade with salt, so it's disgusting. The boys drink the lemonade and they're like, spit it out immediately. And they're like, this is gross. Yuck. They give the girls lemonade. What do they do? They gulp it down. And they look at the researchers and they say, can I have some water, please? And afterwards the researchers say to them, why didn't you tell us you didn't like it? And the girls look at the researcher and they say, we didn't want to hurt your feelings. So we learn at the youngest of possible ages how to. People, please. How to be a good girl, how to gravitate toward the things that we're good at. And so, like we wake up. I don't know about you, but like, I feel like I woke up in my early 40s and I didn't even know what I liked.

[Stacey London]

I feel exactly the same way.

[Reshma Saujani]

I didn't have any hobbies. I didn't have any. Everything I did, I did it to excel at. And it would. I remember being in. And I love to dance, and I remember being in a dance class and I just couldn't get the Beyonce. I'm wearing her Today, you know, exactly right. And instead of enjoying it, I was like, getting irritated, you know what I'm saying? I'm like, and. And wanted to leave. And so. And that is all conditioning of perfectionism. And I think what happens in midlife is you realize that, oh, my God, I don't have hobbies. I don't know what I like. I've only gravitated towards good. Towards the things that I'm good at. Let me spend this period of time, like you said, towards curiosity, towards discovering new things. And it's so interesting. I always think about. I don't know why this is like such. I always think about the juxtaposition with men, because I see this with my husband. And I always. I always say that. I always think about, like, President Obama. You know, President Obama, they used to make such a deal about how we love to play basketball. And you'd see him out there with these, like, pro athletes, and he sucked, you know, but you could tell watching him that he was just. Had that swag. He just enjoyed it. And I used to watch and I'd be like, God. And I see. I. I see the men in my life again, just enjoying activities or things because they enjoy it, not because they're good at it. And it's we, not because they're good at it or they'll ever be good at it.

[Stacey London]

And I also think it's interesting in the way I think that midlife is about the end of people pleasing particularly for women and those who identify as women even more so than men. I think that there is this moment when you realize, like, I've won, certainly with menopause for me. I was like, I'm not getting answers. I. I don't know what's happening to me. And I am done with this. Like, somebody has to do something. You just get so fed up with, you know, what you're being told that you're being fed this kind of non. Information.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. And you were like, the first to, like, blow up the menopause movement. I remember, like, years ago being like, oh, Stacey talking about that menopause thing.

[Stacey London]

And, you know, listen, I probably was like, a little too early on the. On that bell curve, but.

[Reshma Saujani]

No, you. I don't think so. I. I'm always early, but I think it's like, whoever's the first is actually. So what. How. I. I'm sorry. No, this is like, how did that happen?

[Stacey London]

So I had started talking about menopause when it started to happen to me in like, 2016, 2017. I was like, something is not right. And I had read, oh, what is her name? That book, Dr. Julie somebody or other who's like, you know, the sex you're not having, the. The exercise you can't do, the sleep you're not getting. And it was called Moody Bitches. And I thought, I got to this one.

[Reshma Saujani]

Julie Holland. Julie Holland. I interviewed her on my podcast.

[Stacey London]

Oh my God, I'm obsessed with her. And now she's all into shrooms, right? Psychedelics.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, I learned all about psychedelics.

[Stacey London]

We need to talk about that because that's also something I want to do. But Moody Bitches for me was this aha moment because there was a three line paragraph about perimenopause. And I remember thinking, that's what the fuck this is. Like, that's what this is. How do I find out more about this, right? And I'd read Survival of the Prettiest by Nancy Edkoff and like all of these things, then I started doing my homework. Then I found out about Jen Gunter. I read the menopause manifesto. Heather Carino, who wrote the only non binary book on menopause called what Fresh Hell Is this? I mean, I really started to talk about it. So I was approached by a friend who was working for a very big company at the time that wanted to produce smaller brands for niche audiences. So they did like a genderless deodorant for Gen Z and they did Menopause and they hadn't launched yet and they had already decided that this big company was going to be the tech platform and concentrate on that for these smaller brands and rather than run and own the brands, so they were selling these brands off. And I had a long talk with them about it and I was like, I want to take this on. I have no platform if I don't have like a company to kind of launch and sort of do this with the amount of naivete that I had at that time in acquiring that company was the most major financial loss of my life and how much work I needed to do with so much product and no way to kind of get the word out there fast enough. And at that time people were telling me that I was committing career suicide. And I thought, you're the problem if you think that like fashion and style are like, you know, pretty and glossy and sexy, but like women's health and rights is not. We are living in the upside down. And that made me more angry about it. But what also happened was that when I launched the site, we were getting tons of conversion because every not Conversion. Excuse me? We were getting tons of hits because everybody was reading our articles that were written by menopause doctors. But then we're getting no conversion because nobody in menopause needs a new face oil unless it's got some magic proprietary ingredients, which I didn't do my homework. None of these did. They were good skincare products. But skin care and hair care, while having, you know, dry in both and needing more hydration is not at the root of menopause, and it is not at the root of the reckoning that midlife is. And I felt very quickly that I was going to be on the wrong side of this conversation if I was pitching something that felt extractive instead of additive.

[Reshma Saujani]

Like a snake oil salesman.

[Stacey London]

Yes. And listen, we see enough of that already happening now in menopause, like, in the last couple of years. It's all snake oil, and it makes me crazy. So I was like, I don't want to do that. I think that there are enough brands that are doing a good job that I don't need to be in this space. And if I become an advocate and stop thinking about this as something to make money off of, I will feel better about the people that I'm helping. Because how can you take advantage of people when they're that vulnerable? Like, it makes me crazy.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. That's incredible.

[Stacey London]

That's how I started menopause. And then Clinton and I were. Went on tour. We did something called the Stacy and Clinton Show. We went all around the country, and everybody I talked to between 40 and 70 said to me, I don't know how to dress anymore. I don't know who I am. I'm not 25. I don't want to look like my daughter, but I want to look cool. I want to look relevant. I want to look like I. I am clever. That I have style that, like, I. You know, I've got some style acumen. And that's why I made the line for qvc, because I was like, those things are possible, and they're possible at a price point.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. It's so funny. I'm like, I need a dress for, like, a cocktail party next week. And I'm like, I can't find a fucking dress.

[Stacey London]

I've got the perfect black lace dress for you.

[Reshma Saujani]

But it is. I mean, I think it's like. The point is, is like, I. Clothes at this age really matter, but figuring out exactly how much move, how much cleavage, what I do about the stomach area. Right. All of that is. It's great that you're you're like, you're, you've built this brand.

[Stacey London]

But it's so funny that it brought me back to style, right? And then it's really understanding QVC's audience is way past menopause. And so we're really trying to bring in Gen X, but Gen X is not watching QVC. So we have to work on QVC.com we have to work on in person events like I brought QVC to South by this year.

[Reshma Saujani]

You're trying to cool up qvc. Exactly.

[Stacey London]

I'm like, go where the people are. Let's have a dinner with Tribeca. You know, figure out what it is that you want to say to Gen X in order to get them. Because it can't just be me.

[Reshma Saujani]

No, it can't. Well, this generation's so damn smart. I mean, I think on all of these things, they're just, they're talking about things in a really different way. Even as, you know, in our, in our meeting, like when we were talking about. I've been thinking, I'm writing a speech, a commencement speech on gender right now and about the relationship between men and women. And even for them, they don't see gender right in the same way that we were raised to see it, but it's still used by this administration as a way to oppress us. And so you can't not see it. Right? That's kind of how we got fucked a little bit, right? By being. Oh, we're, we're post gender, but we're really not post gender. So it's like this kind of really important ability to be, quote, post gender in that we let people just live their fucking life whoever they want to be.

[Stacey London]

You want to be whatever you want to be if you feel it. Yes, exactly.

[Reshma Saujani]

And it ain't my fucking business what you do, right? It's your business. But at the same time, understanding that you can't ignore gender because it's used as it is. Almost like the ultimate. Like, I think a lot of the, for example, conversation around DEI and I is not even about race. I feel like it's about gender. It's really about how do we put women, men, to the reason why you have high suicide rates, low graduation rates, you're not employed. It's cause we gave these women too much power. We gotta just, we gotta take that back, you know, and it is like one of the ways where, because we know, like post George Floyd, the people who really benefited from it were white women, right? Like, those were the ones where a lot of the gains you saw being made. We've never actually given people of color the opportunity to really move into a meritocracy. Right. And so that. So again, like, sorry, this is like a non sequitur.

[Stacey London]

This is not. This is all part of it.

[Reshma Saujani]

It's just another way, I think, to really, like, how do we get young people to kind of still see that they're still playing, they're still rigging the game that way by using this.

[Stacey London]

Yes. And I think, look what I just saw the other day, that the NIH just canceled their like 30 year study on.

[Reshma Saujani]

On women and then uncanceled it. Cause we lost our fucking minds as a student.

[Stacey London]

Oh, really? I didn't know they uncanceled it because I was like, this is ridiculous. And even the things that you're talking about, the way that we're talking post George Floyd. Right. To be midlife in this moment in history is also one of the most fascinating things that I feel like I've been a part of culturally, is that you see these younger generations like Gen Z coming out as pan or asexual or, you know, whatever it was. But what you also see simultaneously is people in their 50s and 60s coming out thinking that they were gay because they didn't have any vocabulary, any kind of language in which to really convey who they are. And so to. It's like this awakening for, you know, multi generations. It's not just what's happening. And strangely, I found out that a lot of women who go through menopause wind up dating women after menopause.

[Reshma Saujani]

I saw that at our dinner. I thought that that was so, so interesting.

[Stacey London]

Isn't that fascinating?

[Reshma Saujani]

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[Stacey London]

If you listen to me on my Wiser Than Me podcast, you probably already know that I'm an investor and an.

[Reshma Saujani]

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[Stacey London]

There are a lot of reasons to love mill, but for me, it's all impact. Keeping food out of the garbage is one of the most powerful things we can do to help the planet. Every single day. We're talking banana peels, carrot tops, old takeout. When that stuff heads to the landfill, it becomes a huge driver of climate change. If you already compost, great.

[Reshma Saujani]

But of course, there's the smell, the flies, the running to the curb every.

[Stacey London]

Day with a little leaking compost bag made of cornstarch. That's where mill comes in. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. It can handle nearly anything from a turkey carcass to, like 20 avocado pits. It works automatically while you sleep. You can keep filling it for weeks.

[Reshma Saujani]

And it never, ever smells.

[Stacey London]

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[Reshma Saujani]

Hi, I'm Erica Mahoney. You don't know me, but you know a version of my story, because by.

[Stacey London]

Now we've all felt the impact of senseless gun violence.

[Reshma Saujani]

I think a stray bullet flew past.

[Stacey London]

Me because I hear the.

[Reshma Saujani]

It was that horrible feeling of dread, something's wrong. Four years ago, my dad was killed in a mass shooting. My podcast, Senseless is about moving forward after the unthinkable Senseless From Lemonada Media, premiering June 17.

[Stacey London]

So I've heard that. I mean, and I think it's a couple of things, right? I think, one, I've heard that it is physiological, like as you lose estrogen, your. Your hormone profile is more masculine, Right? That makes sense to me, sure. But I don't think that's the whole story. I think this idea of people pleasing, like, for me, you know, I just fell in love with who I fell in love with and. And then realized, like, I was much happier with women. But I think that that's because the people pleasing thing is kind of gone. And the, the kinds of, you know, the rigged perfection was so much a part of the patriarchy that I was like, you know what? I don't want to win and I don't want to play.

[Reshma Saujani]

I mean, listen, I feel like I grew up as like an Indian girl, like in a. In a conservative culture, right? And whereas I just I just did the things I was supposed to do, right? Like, and grew up in the 80s, didn't do drugs. You know what I mean?

[Stacey London]

I did all the drugs.

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, I did, right? I was like, we all, all of us just like drank, you know what I mean? And like a lot, like, all the time and, and maybe smoked a little weed right back in the day, but not really, like, you know, hardcore.

[Stacey London]

Oh, well, I. I grew up here, so it was hardcore for me.

[Reshma Saujani]

But I think there it was still like you were trying to, you know, there. What I mean is in Shopper Girl, I grew up here too, but I think back then, first generation, right, I think you're still trying to comply. And I think it's. I think it's the same thing with sexuality, right? You're supposed to marry an Indian person. You, I mean, have basically get married, you know, in your 20s, do do all the good girl things. And I think a lot of now women are really examining the choices that they were never really choices. And, and it's really, really, really fascinating. I mean, I look, I mean, I think as you were talking, I was thinking every time I talk to, like, my friends are like, where are the kids? Why aren't they out there on the streets? We just need them to blow things up. And it's funny, I really think that the. I think we're gonna have to be the ones. I think it's me, women in midlife that are going to have to, like, shut shit down and like, really claim it. And we have it in us, you know, I mean, to do that because we have come out the other side and been like, oh, this is a con. Like, we are always being tricked. The fact I'm being sold Botox, do you know, I mean, and fillers and menopause hair cream or whatever the fuck. You're trying to move me into irrelevancy. You're trying to dilute my power. You're trying to. Yet you're trying to basically tell me that I should go away. And the very same things physically that happen to men. George Clooney has the same wrinkles, the same gray hairs, the same paunch on.

[Stacey London]

His belly, and he's got 20 versions of Viagra that he can choose from. But, you know, I do think we are the ones who blow it up, specifically because we are the ones who are coming to this realization. I think this is Gen X's legacy. I think we are the troublemakers, the upstarts that really do have to change generations that come after us. The boomers are. Sorry, guys, I hate to break it to you, but it's just too late for you. And we do have the benefits of health technology that we didn't have. We know that it's, you know, don't. Don't eat so much fat, don't walk 10,000 steps. All of the things that can help our longevity. Not the Botox, not the, you know, labioplasty or whatever you're doing to your vagina this week or whatever. Because to me, it was funny. I did these two menopause makeovers for Tamsen's hottest menopause party in Las Vegas. And I did them for women who had experienced really difficult symptoms in menopause, but also just had really heart wrenching stories, right? And one of them said, I had no idea I could feel this beautiful. And I almost, like, I almost crumpled because I thought it. It's not about beauty. It's not about beautiful. I mean, it's. I want you to feel beautiful. It's not like I don't. I want to take that away from you, but I want you to say you feel powerful and capable and confident.

[Reshma Saujani]

Strong.

[Stacey London]

Strong. And this idea that we're still using words like beautiful is the same reason we're selling lube to women, so that they can keep their elder, you know, older men happy by still being able to truck them. And I'm just like, this is still the patriarchy. We are still talking about this in a way that does not serve us. And I hear it in every conversation. It doesn't mean we're not getting better. It doesn't mean we don't have more knowledge. It doesn't mean we don't have a better idea of what we need to fight against. But I still see that, like, thumb of the patriarchy kind of like holding us down.

[Reshma Saujani]

And it's been going along for a long time. I mean, they start. The first plastic surgery happened in the 1900s. I mean, they've been selling shit to us and telling us that, you know, beauty is age reversed, right? For. Only for women, not for men. Right. For a very, very long time. And I think, I do think the key, though, is to, like, you know, it's like Pamela Anderson is to really just like, show the con and let women do what it is that they want to do, but recognize that they are not actually really making choices. Like, if we're told that we should look like, you know, I mean, Kylie Jenner or Kendall Jenner, and that's what beauty is all the time. And all we're doing is chasing that. We're spending so much time thinking about our face and our bodies and we're not spending time thinking about like taking guitar lessons or reading that book or falling in love with a woman or whatever it is, you know, that it is that we want to do because that, the amount of energy that it takes. But I still, I think that, so it's funny, I mean, with, with, with, you know, my so called midlife and.

[Stacey London]

As I've been talking about, which is your podcast.

[Reshma Saujani]

My podcast. Thank you everybody. I still think we're at the beginning of this conversation. No question, we're at the beginning of this conversation. People are like, oh, midlife can be magnificent.

[Stacey London]

I'm like, yes, but everybody thinks it takes, like, it takes a perspective shift or looking through a different lens at the same issues and that's enough to fix it. And that to me is not enough to fix it.

[Reshma Saujani]

Right?

[Stacey London]

It's being able to see. Like, I used to go to the gym to punish myself if I ate a cupcake and I'm like, now I got to lose 10 pounds. How, how far do I have to run? How many miles? As opposed. I'm going to get so strong that I won't fall when I'm 85 like my grandmother did and my mom did. And you know, those are the things, they are a perspective shift. But you also need the discipline and consistency in order to do them. And that can feel very boring. It really can.

[Reshma Saujani]

It can feel very boring. And very much like again, like everybody else is do, everybody else is doing the thing and I'm trying to do something else.

[Stacey London]

And this whole idea of, okay, so now we're going to the gym to be strong and now we're eating, you know, good proteins to keep our brains healthy. And yes, we want to open neural pathways, you know, and neuroplasticity by trying new things and always being. Now we're putting a whole other set of pressure on ourselves. In a way. It's like you kind of can't win for losing. And I think that this is a very interesting place, like a very interesting starting point for this conversation. Not just about like, but about menopause. And I know that you have like advocated for structural changes like supporting women, paid leave, childcare, closing the gender gap, home tech. But, but how do you think that midlife and especially menopause needs to be sort of built on top of what you've already built and that conversation.

[Reshma Saujani]

So I always say, like, every time I start seeing some like, negative self talk with My girlfriends, I'm like, oh, there's something going on here. And I feel like midlife is very similar to, like, the motherhood penalty. Right. So the motherhood penalty is essentially, young women make more than men until they have a baby, and then when they have a baby, because they're not given paid leave. Right. Because we live in a nation that doesn't have paid leave because childcare is unaffordable. They basically suffer a pay gap when they go back to work. And that gap gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Bigger. They don't get promotions. Right. Like, you're seen as somebody that is no longer a committed worker. And that's when the gender gap starts to grow. So I coined something called the midlife penalty, which is exactly, structurally, almost the same thing. Right. It's the physical, economic, and emotional costs that you bear for simply getting older. And if you look at all the data, it's actually worse in midlife. So the biggest, biggest gender pay gap is actually for women over the age of 55. It's interesting, right, Stacey? Like, when you think about J.P. morgan or bank of America, all these companies that have programs for recruitment and retainment, they're all focused on young women, but really, the people that actually, really need it are all the older women that you're kicking out. You know what I mean? Because you think they're irrelevant or they're going to have all these caregiving issues. Like, that is actually where we need to focus. Right? So I always tell women, like, this is where the pipeline is the weakest and the leakiest. And the reality is, because divorce rates are going up or women are living longer, the reason why you have all these women in senior citizen, in senior centers is because they're actually being pushed into poverty because they have the most amount of disorder, discrimination in terms of salary, in terms of Social Security benefits. And we are not focused on that. And so. And in fact, you, you know, you're shaking your head. You know this, but the vast majority of people listening to this podcast are like, oh, I didn't know that. So it's like, we're screwed, you know what I mean? Economically, for getting older, which we need to fight back at. Secondly, as we were Talking about, like, 15% of women, you know, take, you know, either take days off of work or downshift their careers because of menopause.

[Stacey London]

Exactly. I think that the. The 4 in 10 think about leaving, and 1 in 10 do. But those are also stats that I feel like companies can use against us.

[Reshma Saujani]

Not to help Us.

[Stacey London]

But to be like, oh, well, you're going to leave anyway. Oh, well, you're going to be a mess anyway. Right? Which drives me crazy. It's not that we get the compassion for understanding this problem, but I don't.

[Reshma Saujani]

Think that means that we should hide it so. Because I think the thing is, is what I've been so impressed, Stacy, are all these. I remember at Davos, and we're doing some panel and this woman starts screaming, well, what about the menopause benefits? And I was like, you go, right, Like. Like, it's kind of like I'm hot flashing loud and proud, right? Like, I'm going to do it out loud. Like, I'm not going to hide this. And so I think the more that we address that this is happening, the more benefits are kind of baked into. It's like hiding that. You know, we used to feel like we had to hide that we were pregnant, and now it's like, no, what are your actual. Like, this is going to happen to me. I need support during this period. What are you going to do? And so, yes, maybe they'll. They will use it against us, just like they use everything against us. Childbirth, paid leave, like, you know, but that doesn't fucking mean that we don't say anything. So I think. I think that. But I think it's like really acknowledging that. And then I think as you talked about it, it's like, I think most of the time women are ones doing the caregiving. And so it may be children at one side, but then it's like your spouse who may be dying, elder care, right? It's like all of these other benefits that literally lead to an enormous amount of. Amount of stress. So my point is, going back to your question is like, these are structural things. These are things that we need to fix and change in society, just like childcare and paid leave and other policies that help you. I mean, at moments where there is, quite frankly, discrimination, you know, I mean, against women's opportunity and midlife is like, no different. And so, but the more we shrink from it, the more we accept, oh, this is the end and not the beginning, the less likely, right, that we're going to do anything about the other thing. That's really fascinating. I feel like Tamsin and I talked about this, when we talked is like, we weren't supposed to live this long. So there's only like five mammals in the world, right, that have gone through menopause. And so women are living. Living longer than we even have data for. So this isn't just a period of time. This is the longest period of time that has absolutely no playbook for women on what to do. An Australian hiker travels to the American west to walk a wilderness trail. Wasn't afraid to be out on his own. But Eric Robinson vanished in the Hyewinta Mountains. I remember thinking, eric, what were you thinking, mate? I'm Dave Cawley. Join me on my podcast Uinta Triangle, where I travel the world to answer the question, what happened to Eric Robinson? Followed Uinta Triangle.

[Stacey London]

That's U I, n T a triangle on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. And it's, it's so interesting to me because what you're talking about also is what has led to my other interest, which is not just in aging, but in actual like, like being an elder and also death, because I think death is big business or it's about to become much bigger business. But I also think that there is a concern that a lot of women, let's say, who aren't married, who are single, who don't have children, this is a category who's like, you know, maybe given up their lives for everything, but their career, are also at a stage in midlife where divorce, if, you know, if it hasn't happened, or just separating from a partner or depression and decreased earning potential are at their highest. And it made me think a lot about how are we planning. I don't want to retire.

[Reshma Saujani]

Where are they going to live?

[Stacey London]

I don't want to retire to Deerfield beach in Florida like my grandmother did, waiting to die. Does that mean that I'm going to have to work my whole life? How am I going to be able to afford to die at home if I want to? Or how am I going to be able to make sure that if I get really, really sick that there is a point at which I do not want you to try and save my life anymore, Which I also think is really important for us to talk about. We don't, we're so afraid of death. We don't talk about that either. Midlife is one thing. We're not going to talk about the end of it either. So, you know, I think it's. I think it's fascinating because this, this moment makes us think about the next 20, 30, 40 years of what post menopausal life looks like. And that is structural, that is financial. That is, I mean, it's all the things communal.

[Reshma Saujani]

It's all. And I think women want to live different. Like, look, we want to be in community. Like, I want to I want to live with my girlfriends. I want to, I want to have communities where, where we have that we can go play tennis as like 80 year olds and go get a snack and watch some TV and take a happen.

[Stacey London]

And also to be able to help each other in small community. Whether that is like financial, if you need a loan, or I can watch your kids, or I can take you to your doctor or you know, I can watch your grandkids or whatever it is. But this idea that if we have big government, you know, being so authoritarian, at least at the moment, it, we have to come up with these kind of grassroots organizations in particularly women, I think in order to do well.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, I think that's why creating, you know, teaching courage and bravery is really important because I just think we're so used to as women suffering silently.

[Stacey London]

Well, that's what I was going to ask you about next because I was like, you know, you said that we need to stop striving for perfection and instead we need to teach bravery. Amazing TED Talk, if you have not heard it, go and find it right now. How does the idea evolve in midlife? So when so many women are reevaluating their identities and careers and priorities. I think some of this is natural. We naturally kind of let go of this need for perfection. I, you know, strangely, I feel like one of the things that came out of my postmenopausal experience is I am so much less ambitious. I, I wish I was still like, you know, so hungry, but I'm not, I'm tired.

[Reshma Saujani]

So it's funny for me, I started feeling like in order to go up, I needed to go in. So my relationship with God deepened. But you're right, the same things that would get me off, getting an award, doing a big thing, having another blah blah, blah, blah, blah notch on my whatever, getting some other. It just, it wasn't floating my boat anymore. You know, the things that I wanted to do that were like my 20 year plan. And so an ambition was my religion.

[Stacey London]

And also. It's your fuel.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, it's my fuel. I'm a workaholic, like without it, like what do I have? And so I would still say I'm in the thick of this. I have not come out on the other side yet. Meaning I vacillate, right? I think there are moments like, ah, I'm over and I'm good, but I don't know how to chill or relax. I don't know how to have a good time. I don't know how to turn it off. I'm normally constantly doing something.

[Stacey London]

I feel so much better hearing you say this because, like, I. I tell you, I Sometimes I know I'm a workaholic, even though I feel my ambition has really waned, but I also think that that plays into people pleasing, is that I don't. I'm not trying to. I don't need the external validation I needed when I was younger. I need my validation. I need to feel validated.

[Reshma Saujani]

Exactly. I'm not trying to win an award. I'm not trying somebody to be like, you're so great. Me. I need to feel I'm competing with me, right? So, like, if I'm not crushing X, that's about me. So. But that's worse also the thing for me, Stacy, I wish somebody could teach me how to turn it off. Like, if I. If I could, I'm in. Like, if someone has some secret on, like, how to turn it off. Because someone was saying. Julie was saying this about psychedelics, and I was just, like, blown away. She was like, the reason why psychedelics are great is because most of us are conditioned. The way that we're living right now in our world with so much of. So much is we are constantly in fight or flight. I feel that way. And the way you're supposed to feel is like, imagine you're standing outside and you're staring at Mount Rushmore or the Niagara Falls, right? Like, you're just in awe and you're calm and you're serene. And I'm like, fuck, I'm fucked. I never. I don't even know what that feels like. Like, I have glimpses, glimpses of that, right? But. But how do I get there?

[Stacey London]

She's so funny. Because I. When I think about White Lotus, I'm like, are you kidding me? All this shit happens in a week. It would take me a week to even be able to feel like I was slightly on vacation. It would take me another two weeks to feel like I'm really in it. And then I'd have to go home. And I. I never recharge in that way, right? And I never. I always feel like I'm failing at exercise or I'm failing. You know, I'm not doing enough of strength training. I'm not doing enough of this. But those are. I feel like those are the same kind of criticisms that we. That are structural, that are part of that internalized messaging that we've learned over.

[Reshma Saujani]

Our lives, especially for women who've had to work their fucking ass off. Like, we have to work our fucking Ass off to. To be here right now. And it came with a lot of sacrifice, a lot of grit, a lot of ambition, a lot of hustle and, you know, but here's. If I was being honest, I missed.

[Stacey London]

Out on a lot.

[Reshma Saujani]

I missed out on a lot of fun, a lot of joy. Oh, I missed. I feel like I missed out on, so. Because I didn't have my. It's what I'm so grateful to have my husband, because my husband's all fun. You know what I mean? He's all fun. He's all like, loves to party, loves to be out, loves it. And he makes me go do that, right? Or go be with friends and have people over and do the. Do the things. But I do. I want to get this part of my life corrected, you know, because I do feel like we're still young enough where I can go on a, you know, a hike with friends and be in the moment and gossip about. You know what I mean, and not talk about work like, you know, we're still healthy and unique enough that I can. I can shut it off. So I want to figure out how to do that. That's like my. That's like the pursuit I'm in right now.

[Stacey London]

Look, I'm right there with you. Like, if you figure it out, let me know because those are one. That's exactly what I feel like. I feel like I've spent all my life working, all my life supporting people, all of my life doing things that were either in service of others or to keep myself afloat. That fight or flight survival thing is so real. And I think when you learn it at a very young age and you internalize it, there is a deep fear that goes along with it. And I don't want to be afraid. When you talk about teaching bravery, I don't want to be afraid of being curious or trying new things or taking a chance on something that may not work.

[Reshma Saujani]

Right?

[Stacey London]

The biggest lesson for me from State of Menopause was like, you can fail at something and it not be the end of the world.

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, here's the other thing. You're fucking Stacy London. Like, you're. No, I mean, like, you're done. Like, I, I can't even. Like, you've done it. You've done all of it. Like, so if you get an incremental 20 fucking things, it's, it's, it's. It's not gonna change anything, right? Meaning it's not gonna make you happier is what I'm saying. Right? Same thing with me. Like, I Used to like people. Like, aren't you. Are you proud of what you've achieved? And I'm like, no, but I can't even fucking say that anymore. Like, I'm done too. Like. Like, if I get hit by a car tomorrow, I'm done. I'm good. Like you. I mean, like, I lived. I did it. I lived this fucking life. I made a difference. I did. You know, I did my service to God. Like, I am good. So. So what? So, like, what? More what? Incremental More? Right? And so for. Do I. Do I need to prove? And I think the thing is, is, like, I've worked with this monk and, you know, he really taught. Like, all of us have something that we're trying to unlearn or undo. So for me in my life, it's rejection, right? Like, I had a complicated relationship with my mother. Like, I lost two races. Like, it is. I'm just trying to get accepted, you know, And I. And I know I'm on that journey to be like, you know, and it's like, I think it is just understand. Like, so I think spending the time with yourself and in quiet and understanding, like, what's. What. What are you still hurt by. What's your trauma still? Because we're still on. Like, that dinner we were together was so incredible. Like, because there's. But. But you need time. You. I mean, and space to kind of unwind that and to do that. And if you're constantly chasing shiny things that don't even matter to you anymore, because they don't. Let's be honest. Like, they don't. Like, I could get, like, anything, any. No pulse. Surprise. I'd be like, okay, well, I. I.

[Stacey London]

Mean, listen, I think you might get a pull it. Surprise. I'm not gonna lie from somebody from the outside to hear you speaking this candidly. I'm like, I'm chopped out of my mind. Because you're, like, one of the most accomplished women I know. I look at you and I'm like, appreciate that. Oh, my God, I wish I knew how to do that. I wish I knew how to do.

[Reshma Saujani]

No, but I joke, but. But I think I'm just being honest. I mean, it's funny. Like, this past weekend, I did a commencement speak. I was in a stadium full of 40,000 people, and I spoke and I fucking crushed it. And it was a rough. There's so many rough things that happened in a. Like, in and around it. Like. And, you know, when I came home, you know, I was like, home changing diapers, taking a Dog's walk, Nothing. And my husband's like, do you want to get a drink? Let's celebrate. I'm like, no, I'm good. I'm fine. And I wasn't like. He's just like, no, we're getting a drink. Like, you need to. But we were sitting there. He's like, how do you feel? I'm like, fine. He's like, see, this is the problem. It's like, just another day, right? And for some people, this would be, like, the thing they do for the whole year. And, like. But I real. So. So I. And it is true. It. And so, like, then it's like, like, all of the sacrifices that it takes to do that, if I can't even really feel it, I should, one, enjoy it. But two, live your life, right? Like, do the things.

[Stacey London]

It's so interesting that you say that, because I do think this is part of perfectionism, is that every time you do something great, you move the bar. Even just, you know, subconsciously. It's not like, okay, you know, you don't feel like it was a big deal. Like, my friends had to convince. Convince me, maybe I should have a watch party for my new show on Amazon. And I was like, really?

[Reshma Saujani]

And you're like, yes, but you should. And we should. You have to.

[Stacey London]

I was convinced. I was like, oh, yeah, we should celebrate this, right? Like, And I never think about it that way. I was like, well, I've done all the press. Who's ever going to see it, is going to see it, whatever. And it's interesting. You talked about your podcast before, and you talked to, you know, you've spoken about this messy, unfiltered experience and, um, what. What surprised you most about getting into the midlife space?

[Reshma Saujani]

So I was not happy about getting older. I was in the space of. I was like, I feel like shit. Like, my. My. My. You know, I got anxiety that came from nowhere. Like, my. My clothes don't fit the way they used to. Like, people used to always tell me I look like I'm 20 now. I don't fucking look like I'm 20, you know? And again, I'm not getting off on all the things professionally that used to get me off. Like, every day was just not. I never. Nothing exciting was going to happen any day. You know what I mean? It was. Every day was the same. And what was. Surprised. So I did this podcast, and I thought that I was going to talk to a lot of people who would commiserate with me, right? But it was the shocking thing is, like, there's a lot of happy people in midlife. Like, and they got, like, their tips and tricks, the things that they're doing, like, Margaret shows, like, writing a joke every day, right? And that's the. That's the thing. Or Zarnagar, right? Like, discovered she was, you know, a comedian out of, like, a dare from. From her kids to go to, like, a comedy class. Like, she found something new that she was good at at, like, 12 years after 12 years of staying at home. So, like, people have these incredible, like. And as Julia's reference said, midlife's a mindset. So it just made me realize that, like, yeah, like, I want to write the playbook. I want to, like, basically, like, there's tips like anything else. Like, and I know I hate saying tips and tricks. That sounds so, like, well, it Sounds.

[Stacey London]

So like, 90s magazine, but that's what we're. That's what we're used to.

[Reshma Saujani]

But it's kind of like, yeah, like, I don't. And I don't think anybody gave us the playbook to be happy at this period of their life. And I think we. We need one. We need to create one. And there's people out there who have kind of, like, figured it out, but it's like, having those kinds of conversations. It's also, like, fun. Stacey, you'll appreciate this, because I feel like we come from the genre of, like, listening to the podcast that's going to make me a better successful person. Like, what am I? You know, how do I manage my schedule? And this is, like, about mushrooms and sex and, like, you read, like, anxiety and, like, I don't know, like, it's just. It's like all the other things, because life is big, and it's full of all the things and not everybody is about. Not everything we're doing is supposed to be about professional success.

[Stacey London]

And I think that it's kind of exciting when you hear people who are stay, you know, who stayed at home for 12 years and then find a.

[Reshma Saujani]

Career, or you're like, oh, my God, maybe it's not Groundhog Day. Like, maybe something exciting. Like, maybe the best is still yet to come. And I think that's, like, the big takeaway.

[Stacey London]

That's amazing, and I think that's wonderful to hear, and I also think that's a wonderful mindset. But my question is, for those who were overly ambitious or who have been workaholics their whole life, where is that new thing going to come from? Is it going to come from something that is more work or is it going to come from something that, like, goes. That lets us let go of work?

[Reshma Saujani]

Right.

[Stacey London]

And I mean, I don't know the answer.

[Reshma Saujani]

I feel like it's play or travel or God or, like, the other things.

[Stacey London]

So that's gotta be written into the playbook. Because I think that there are those people who have truly found either they didn't have that reckoning and they've known who they were and they don't feel that kind of loss of identity, which I felt completely in perimenopause. I was like, I don't look like myself. I don't feel like myself. At the time I was saying to all my friends, like, I don't know how to age with grace. I don't know how to do this. I feel like I'm so out of my depth and it made me so, so sad. And I was like, oh, my God, what not to wear is all I'm ever going to be known for. I'm, you know, it's going to be on my tombstone and it's not what I want. I want to talk about bigger things and deeper things and meaningful things that are still in service to other people. And that was really hard for me to figure out until I was like, I'm just going to talk about what's really bugging me.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. And. Well, that's right. And you're living out loud. And I think that's. That's. That. That's why you get hit the zeitgeist, right? Because it's like what you're experiencing. You're experiencing it out loud and you're living it. I think it's just. Look, I think it is. It is a constant journey. We can talk about, like, realizing that, like, you know, professional ambition doesn't, like, make you happy. And it's like, live a different life. But, like, actually practicing that is another thing. So I think it is, like, a constant, constant journey. But, like, I. I also think it's like, it goes back to kind of what Julie Holland said about.

[Stacey London]

I love Julie Holland. Like, can we all have dinner or drinks?

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, we need to.

[Stacey London]

Or mushrooms.

[Reshma Saujani]

But like, waking up every day and just, you know, feeling like it's good today. Let's. What's going to happen today? Like, how, like, how like. And just having wonder and like you said, curiosity and, like, picking up new hobbies and, like, living life. Because you're always going to crush the professional stuff.

[Stacey London]

Well, I've seen you. I've also seen some of your commencement speeches, which are remarkably Uplifting.

[Reshma Saujani]

You know, your gift is, like, what you're doing with fashion and style and, like, connecting the dots. And, like, my gift is my ability, right. To. To communicate. And, like, that's the thing that I get energy from, too, you know? And I think. And it's so. I found that. I think that is a lot of people's journey. Like, there might be people who are our age who still haven't figured out what their. Why am I here? And for them, I still want them to find that out, because I do think you want, like, it's such a gift, right, to be able to be like, oh, I know why I'm here. Because it allows you to do all the other things with a lot more freedom.

[Stacey London]

Yeah. It's so amazing that you say that because, I mean, you did. Girls who code, right? Moms first. What is the movement or what is the kind of community that we should be building for Midlife?

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, I mean, I think it is. Look, it's very similar to, I think, the work that I'm doing with women and girls. I realize that I am standing on the shoulders of so many women that there are literally a Rushman and Stacy who are having an aversion of this conversation. It's not on a podcast in the 1900s saying the same damn thing. Right? For sure. And we are, you know, I mean, they're our ancestors. We're, like, standing on their shoulders. And so, like, our purpose in this lifetime is to give this wisdom and knowledge to as many women as we possibly can, to allow them to have, like, free and joyful lives. Like, that's. That is. Like, that is our work. That's it. That's our work. And. Right. So we're teaching out loud, right? We're living. We're living out loud and then teaching out loud. And so to me, as much progress as I loved what you said, I, too, feel like our generation, we were born at, like, the middle of everything. So we had a life with. And without screens. We knew what it was like to, like, meet, date someone that you met at a bar. Right. Like, we. Like, we had.

[Stacey London]

We didn't have anybody you met at.

[Reshma Saujani]

A bar with somebody at a bar, but we had this. And I'm so grateful for it. Right. Because. And so maybe we're, like, in this generation, like, or this time in the world, like, you know, like the wise women, like, the people that are the wise women and, like, the agitators, like you said.

[Stacey London]

I love being an agitator.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. And I think that that's Our own. So I think when it comes to midlife, I'd like to make more progress than has been made. Like, if. If we can actually free women from the binds of feeling like they have to do something or feeling like this is it. Because when you feel like this is it and my life is done, you can't be an agitator, right? You can't. You can't see this moment for what it is and feel like you have, you know, like, the energy to get up and fight. And I think we need the energy to get up and fight for sure.

[Stacey London]

I mean, you know, also, again, going back to women's health, why we need to understand it more, why we need to understand what women in midlife need to continue to be healthy post menopause. There, you know, there are, as you said, there are so many tendrils to this conversation. And I, you know, I had this talk with an executive producer, and I've said this before. We were talking about the. The Jungian, you know, sort of archetypes of woman, right, which is like the maiden, the mother, and the crone. And we were saying, you know, there's actually this fourth stage, which is in between mother and crone, which is enchantress. And you can call that witch, you can call that agitator, you can call that whatever you want, but we're there to make some trouble, some good trouble. And I think that that is a stage that is actually baked into our DNA. Now, have we ever used it properly, or have we ever been free enough to have it in our society? I don't know, but that's what I feel like our generation is here to do.

[Reshma Saujani]

It's so funny. I was thinking about that as well. And it is like. It's like queen. I call it Queen energy, right? This stage is like queen energy. And it's like we are. We're meant to unleash something right now. And I think it's so great that there's so many women who are in this space, working in this space from all these different. And we're having this, like, collective realization, you know, and menopause is a great vehicle in some ways for this, right? Because something is happening to us physically that we can actually articulate.

[Stacey London]

And I do feel like it, you know, it is a breakthrough. Like, what? Now that we are talking about it, and I'm like, okay, I. I am. My. My mental health is not deteriorating. This is what is actually happening to my body. You know, that was the other thing. It was like, yes, okay, there's hair, there's skin, there's all the things that we're going to lament about getting older. And you know, anti aging has been sort of the phrase and beauty for so long, but it doesn't describe the fear, the, the, you know, complete shock and awe of what can feel like being hit like with a Mack truck. And we, you know, that's why I always say it's a reckoning to a renaissance. You have to fight to get to the place where you can let things go and you can have this happier version of your life. I don't think that that happens by accident. And, and I think that you are one of the people who is leading that charge. And I'm so grateful for all your work.

[Reshma Saujani]

Oh, well, I loved having this conversation. Thank you for having me on. Appreciate it.

[Stacey London]

It's so special, Reshma. Like I've been dying, dying to interview you just for this reason because, you know, we do talk a lot about the hard stuff when we talk about menopause and midlife and we do need to start talking about the joy as well. And because this is sort of an action item podcast, I would ask what are three things that women, that you feel like women in midlife can do to kind of take on more of that curiosity, wonder and excitement rather than kind of lean into the banality or the, you know, Groundhog Day feeling?

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. So I think the first thing is, is like pick one thing that you're gonna do that's new and that kind of scares you and not for the purpose of acing it, but for the purpose of kind of being alive, you know. I think the second thing is get, join, be a part of a community, you know, whether it is my so called midlife, whether it is your podcast. Right. It's like be a part of a community so you don't feel alone. I think the importance of feeling seen this moment is really critical. And I think the third thing, and I'm just going to say this because it's really helped me, is like this is the moment in life to go inward. So figure out what your spiritual practice is, you know, and like, and really go there, right? Like really go there. Because I think it is really. I'm a different person since I started doing that and I've let go. Well, we were talking about this point of like figuring out how to just turn it off. I am so much better than I was two years ago in terms of like my ability to just decompress, turn off, be in the moment, not chase the I mean, I'm the, I'm the person who leaves, you know what I mean? In a yoga class, the last 10 minutes when you're supposed to lay down and like, relax. I'm like, oh, we're done with a bit Shavasana.

[Stacey London]

Who needs that?

[Reshma Saujani]

I leave Shavasana. Who the fuck leaves Shavasana? And now I don't leave Shavasana, which even is like, you know, I'm proud of myself.

[Stacey London]

I'm proud of you. That's wonderful. But you know, it's so funny I said that when you really are at a crossroads. I just. Tamsa just posted because I was on her podcast. It's so funny. I'm like, it's this ring of us that I was saying, you know, you can't look out at a certain point. You have to look in. You're not going to be able to figure everything out from external cues. It really is about getting quite still and like listening to what you need. And a lot of us, certainly including me, I'm still not sure I need. Yeah, I'm still not sure. Like, just like you said, I don't know what I like. Some days I'm like, I don't know what I like or why.

[Reshma Saujani]

And I, I think that's okay. Yeah.

[Stacey London]

And why don't I light candles and buy myself flowers and do all these things that I know would generally kind of lift my mood, but I've never been that person because I've been eating dinner over the sink in order to get back to work.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, same. Wow. I'm so glad we had this conversation. Thank you. Me too.

[Stacey London]

Thank you. You. Let's Talk Menopause is a national nonprofit organization invested in changing the conversation around menopause so women get the information they need and the health care they deserve. Please visit letstalkmenopause.org for a wealth of menopause information, including a symptoms checklist, information about long term health risks, how to navigate menopause at work, and interview with health experts, and so much more. Hello, Menopause is a production from let's Talk Menopause, produced in partnership with Studio Kairos. I'm your host, Stacey London. Kirsten Kuthy is our supervising producer. Editing and mixing by Reavoice Media hello Menopause is available on Spotify, Apple, Google and wherever you get your podcasts.

[Reshma Saujani]

Hey, my so called midlife listeners. Our network Lemonada is working on a new call and advice show hosted by a remarkable family therapist. One of her main goals is to remind you that you are the expert on your child, even if it doesn't feel that way when you're faced with uncomfortable conversations, meltdowns, and tough decisions. But as a parent, I know we sometimes face challenges that feel too awkward or just too overwhelming to handle on your own. So if you're a parent of a child between 6 and 21 and you're facing one of those things, why don't you send in a question? Our host might offer you real time advice on anything from mental health challenges to big family secrets, from dating to social media. Whatever it is, we want to help reach out @bitly parentingpodcastquestions that's bitly parenting podcastquestions.