Podcast Summary: "It’s OK to Care About Men"

My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
Host: Lemonada Media
Episode Date: November 12, 2025
Guest: Gary Barker

Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking conversation, host Reshma Saujani is joined by Gary Barker, founder and CEO of Equimundo, to explore what it means to care about men in a world intensely focused on gender equality for women. The episode delves into the modern crisis of masculinity, the emotional well-being of men—especially boys and young men—and how empathy for men is essential to building a healthier, more equitable future for all. The discussion is candid, emotional, and at times challenging, confronting both the statistics and the societal narratives shaping generational relationships and our collective capacity for empathy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Midlife Mindsets and Generativity (03:37–06:44)

• Reshma opens by inviting Gary to share his "midlife mindset."
• Gary reflects on moving from a self-centered, achievement-oriented phase to one of generativity—focusing on contribution, community, and handing things off to the next generation.
• Both agree that with age comes a letting go of fear of missing out (FOMO) and a deeper appreciation for the collective over the individual.

Quote:
"My FOMO is under control... now I feel like I'm happy with the four things I get to do, rather than needing to be in 14 rooms."
— Gary Barker (04:21)

2. Gary’s Origin Story: Witnessing Violence and the Search for Care (07:14–12:21)

• Gary recounts witnessing a traumatic school shooting at age 14 in 1977, an event that profoundly shaped his understanding of male anger, violence, and the lack of emotional processing among boys.
• He describes the absence of space for boys and men to express vulnerability, with decades passing before he could articulate his own feelings about the event.

Quote:
"Men’s anger is often a boy’s anger... it’s a lack of words. It’s a lack of being able to make sense of what's happening to them."
— Gary Barker (12:04)

• This experience, combined with his upbringing in a caring household led by a social worker father, seeded his lifelong work on trauma, gender, and emotional health.

3. The Crisis Facing Young Men Today (13:44–16:01; 20:33–22:28)

• Gary shares sobering data from Equimundo’s research:
  • Two-thirds of young men say nobody really knows them.
  • About one-third do not interact with anyone outside their household.
  • Over 42% report contemplating suicide every two weeks.
  • Three-quarters of men (18–45) feel no one cares if men are okay; half of women agree with this sentiment.
• Gary describes modern young men as struggling with a "crisis of connection," compounded by the lack of cultural scripts for positive masculinity.

Quote:
"42% of young men think about suicide every two weeks."
— Reshma Saujani highlighting Gary’s data (14:57)

4. Empathy as a Bridge—Why Everyone Should Care (22:28–26:34)

• Reshma discusses the backlash to her advocacy for caring about men, with many women (especially feminists) feeling empathy for men detracts from women’s advancement.
• Gary explores why this "zero-sum" thinking—where one gender’s progress is assumed to come at the other’s expense—is both pervasive and destructive.

Quote:
"I don’t think you are less a feminist if you care if men are okay. It is not a football match."
— Gary Barker (26:34)

• The conversation expands into how patriarchy harms everyone, conning both genders into believing compassion is a limited resource.

5. Changing the Conversation: From Equity to Human Flourishing (26:34–29:39)

• Gary critiques the limits of striving merely for “gender equality”—pointing out that equality could just mean everyone is equally miserable if the system itself is broken.
• He invokes indigenous concepts (e.g., Ubuntu; buen vivir) that emphasize collective well-being and relational prosperity rather than competition.

Quote:
"Gender equality could be: We all feel suicidal... Human flourishing is where we should be stepping into."
— Gary Barker (24:00–24:20 approx.)

6. Masculinity, Status, and Generational Regression (27:23–28:32)

• Reshma and Gary discuss how Gen Z boys are now more traditional than their fathers, with many believing women's rights have "gone too far."
• They connect this with cultural messaging, economic instability, and the absence of new, positive frameworks for manhood.

Quote:
"57% of Gen Z men think the nation has gone too far in promoting women's equality and are discriminating against men."
— Reshma Saujani (27:42)

7. What Actually Works: Care, Connection, and Rethinking Households (29:39–34:21)

• Gary describes shifts in parenting and family dynamics—how smaller families and costly childcare are, in some cases, helping men become more engaged caregivers.
• He argues that campaigns focused on “care” motivate men more than campaigns criticizing or shaming them into doing chores.

Quote:
"Care was the word that just resonated a lot with men... Ask a 13-year-old what he cares about—he can articulate it."
— Gary Barker (31:24)

• The conversation also touches on partnership balance: the limitations of measuring male contribution via household chores, and the importance of men forming friendships outside their romantic partners.

Quote:
"We lay all our emotional lives on our partner... men need somebody [else] to talk to." — Gary Barker (34:21)

8. Emotional Labor, Divisions, and the Culture of Disconnection (37:22–43:03)

• Reshma confesses she was deeply moved by the prevalence of suicidal ideation among men, leading her to re-examine the men in her own life.
• Both agree the right wing often talks about men's pain in more empathetic terms than the left, and acknowledge the risks of turning all gender progress into antagonism.
• They reflect on generational shifts: College-age women today report having very few male friends, a reversal from previous eras. Dating apps and social media are seen as exacerbating this isolation.

Quote:
"I did a focus group with young women in college: how many of you have a friend that’s a male? Zero."
— Reshma Saujani (40:23)

9. Building Relational Solutions and Next Steps (43:03–46:50)

• Gary emphasizes solutions that are "deeply relational"—not just circles of men or women, but involving all genders together in discussion, support, and learning.
• The conversation closes with an acknowledgment that certain moments will still center one group, but overall, enduring change requires "breaking bread" and seeing each other's pain and hopes.

Quote:
"I’m just going to lean into that and not try to fight you... Maybe I left you thinking about it."
— Gary Barker (38:26)

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• "My FOMO is under control... now I feel like I'm happy with the four things I get to do..."
  Gary Barker (04:21)

• "Men’s anger is often a boy’s anger...it’s a lack of words."
  Gary Barker (12:04)

• "42% of young men think about suicide every two weeks."
  Reshma Saujani (14:57)

• "Three quarters of men don’t think anyone cares if men are ok—and half of women agree."
  Gary Barker (20:57)

• "I don’t think you are less a feminist if you care if men are ok. It is not a football match."
  Gary Barker (26:34)

• "Gender equality could be: We all feel suicidal... Human flourishing is where we should be stepping into."
  Gary Barker (appr. 24:00–24:20)

• "57% of Gen Z men think the nation has gone too far in promoting women's equality."
  Reshma Saujani (27:42)

• "Care was the word that just resonated a lot with men."
  Gary Barker (31:24)

• "We lay all our emotional lives on our partner... men need somebody [else] to talk to."
  Gary Barker (34:21)

• "How many of you have a friend that’s a male? Zero."
  Reshma Saujani (40:23)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Midlife Mindsets and Generativity: 03:37–06:44
• Gary’s Origin Story & School Shooting: 07:14–12:21
• State of Young Men & Stats: 13:44–16:01; 20:33–22:28
• Empathy & Zero-Sum Thinking: 22:28–26:34
• From Equality to Human Flourishing: 26:34–29:39
• Gen Z and Regressive Views: 27:23–28:32
• What Motivates Men—Care, Not Chores: 29:39–34:21
• Emotional Labor & Friendship: 34:21–37:22
• Disconnection in Young Adults: 37:22–43:03
• Relational Solutions & Conclusion: 43:03–46:50

Final Thoughts

This episode is both a call for compassion and a pragmatic look at the interconnectedness of our struggles with gender, mental health, and culture. Reshma and Gary do not flinch from sharing hard truths or their personal evolutions in thinking. Their message is clear: healing and progress for women cannot come at the cost of ignoring men’s suffering, and vice versa. Empathy is not in short supply—it just needs to be intentionally, courageously offered.

For more:

• equimundo.org for Gary Barker’s research
• Follow Reshma Saujani and Moms First on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Substack for further updates