Brad Meltzer (4:32)

It just changed actually.

Reshma Saujani (4:34)

Really?

Brad Meltzer (4:34)

Yeah, because I went and did a Hoffman retreat.

Reshma Saujani (4:38)

That's so crazy. I've been trying. Oh my God. This is like a sign that I need to do it.

Brad Meltzer (4:43)

I went there because I thought I was completely like, you know what, I'm not in crisis right now. My kids are getting bigger. This is the next phase. How do I approach it? And I thought to my, I said to my wife, you know, I could be open to the universe and that's what I need to do. And I went there and it knocked me out of my socks. And I. And I think where my mindset is right now is just a moment of being a little bit more gentle with myself because I'm just a, you know, like anyone else. Like, if I'm on your podcast, it means at some point in my life, I was like, achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve, achievement. And I'm thankful that I did all that. I wouldn't take it back, but I'm not sure I was always being as kind to myself as I probably should have been. And I think that all the advice I've been putting in the universe has been good, solid, beautiful advice. But I don't know if I was myself taking it because I was so.

Reshma Saujani (5:33)

Busy saying it a hundred percent. So, like, have you broken up with your obsession with achievement? Which I say this as somebody who is like, you know, the same thing.

Brad Meltzer (5:43)

Yeah, you know, I. I got overachievement long ago. I will say that. I got over that long ago. Because once you have, you know, books out and people are buying them and people are reviewing them, I don't think for one second that people who say I'm the best writer in the world that they're right. And I therefore can't believe that the ones who say I'm the worst are right. So I've made my piece with, like, that I'm not finding my. My sense of self in, like, what number I am on the best seller list. What I wasn't doing and what I broke up with was. I just don't think I was forgiving myself that much. I was just carrying around a lot of old crap and just blaming on other people and not seeing that I was actually completely guilty of it.

Reshma Saujani (6:21)

Can you give me. Are you comfortable telling me what you mean by that?

Brad Meltzer (6:23)

Yeah. I mean, so here's the best one. My father, he just blew up a lot of stuff in our lives. He just did. My dad was like a big lion coming the thing. And he just like, be the life of the party. And I would say, I'm not gonna be like him. I don't like small talk. I don't like dumb stuff. I like deep conversations. And I was like, I'm bad at small talk. I would tell anyone I'm bad at small talk. I didn't even realize what a ridiculously entitled statement is. As if I'm better at small talk than everyone else. Like, I'm the only deep guy in the whole world. No, I wasn't good at small talk, my friend, because I wasn't good at listening. If you were in a certain level of, like, where I thought you were funny or intelligent. I didn't care what you did. But, like, a certain level of achievement, I wasn't really listening. And I can admit that that was bad for me. And I was like, I have to do better because people deserve to be heard. And that was advice I'm giving my kids every day. But I wasn't taking it.

Reshma Saujani (7:19)

So how did you change? So, like, when you go to a dinner party and I understand you're saying, like, if it's like, for me, it's like, I. I'm a nerd. So I like nerds and stuff. Like, if we're not going to, like.

Brad Meltzer (7:28)

If you don't get my stuff, I'm.

Reshma Saujani (7:31)

Kind of, like, tuned out. So how do you change? How did you change that?

Brad Meltzer (7:34)

You know, it's just open heart. That's it. It's so stupid. But, like, just put away your judgment and realize that everyone has something beautiful to offer. It actually goes back. I basically did the commencement address last year at the University of Michigan. It was all about magic and how.

Reshma Saujani (7:51)

To put magic into it. I listened to it.

Brad Meltzer (7:53)

It's one of my favorite things I've ever written. It went viral. We made a book out of it. It's great. And if you talk to magicians, there's only four types of magic tricks, Right? Right. Put aside illusions and escapes. There's four types of tricks. One, you make something appear. Two, you make something disappear. Three, you make two things switch places. And the fourth magic trick is you got to take one thing and turn it into something else. Which is the hardest trick of all. Transformation. And I go through all the magic tricks and we could talk about them, which ones hit, because I think there are some important ones in there. But the only one that I felt like I was personally good at was the last one, Transformation, which is transformation, which is the idea that you should always be looking to improve. If you think you know it all, you're not the smartest person in the room. The person who's the smartest person in the room is not the smartest person in the room. So that's the person with the biggest ego. But I was always really good at recognizing that. And I was always open to trying to find another. Another layer, another thing. And that's. That's what brought me to it. And that's what let me, like, just be more open to accepting people where they are.

Reshma Saujani (8:52)

So is your thesis essentially, is like, we fit into one of those four, and you have to identify the thing that we're good at or, like, how does the tricks relate to, like, what you. What you should tell people to do. Because I too, am good at transformation, because I want to get better. It's like that immigrant mentality. Like, I never think I'm the best, and I want to go and go and go and go and go.

Brad Meltzer (9:10)

Of course, mine is the is. I grew up with not a lot of money, so mine was like, that's where chief coming. It didn't come because I thought I was the smartest or anything, but I was just. Money was such a headache for my family. It caused us so much pain. Like, we knew at the end of the month, don't answer the front door because that's when they come to collect the rent and we don't have it. Don't pick up the phone because that's when the bill collectors call. And that just drove me, you know. But I think for the magic tricks, you know, it's funny, the first magic trick is what you have to make appear. And I don't think you slot into anything. I think we all are, all of them. And the first thing you have to make appear is the best version of you. You know, we're all chameleons. We act one way with our family and a totally other way with our friends. And there's a wonderful sociologist at the University of Michigan who talks about that. There are people who actually see you for who you accept all the good parts of you. And you know, your friends, the ones who just you love and they love you and you're yourself and you're not hiding anything. Yeah, those are the people who know the best version of you.

Reshma Saujani (10:14)

Yeah, my coach calls them mirrors. You got to find your mirrors 100%.

Brad Meltzer (10:17)

And when you look at the sociological background on it, when you're around someone who tells you that you're good at something, you actually start trying to be that best version of yourself. It's called a reflected best self portrait. And you try and actually become that person. And to me, what you have to do is keep those people, those mirrors around you. First mag trick. So make your best version of you appear. Great. We got to do that. Second magic trick, making something disappear. And it's easy to say, you know, make your fear disappear, but I would challenge that, right? Like, I think fear is actually something good. I think that you can use your fear. You can harness it. I always tell the story when I was younger, working at Haagen Dazs in a mall, and this woman comes and snaps her fingers at me, and I said, I'll be with you in one moment. And she says, no, you got to help me now. And I said, ma', am, I'll be with you in one moment. She says, you know, you need to help me now. And I said, ma', am, you're being rude. I'm not helping you. And she screams in my face, reshma, she says, you're going to be working at this miserable ice cream store for the rest of your miserable life. And I said to her, ma', am, if I am working here for the rest of my miserable life, you're still never getting any ice cream. And I remember I used to tell that story laughing and say, she didn't bother me, but it totally bothered me. It completely bothered me because I felt like my dad struggled his whole life and I didn't want to have those same financial struggles. What I realized, though, if I could see that woman now, I would thank her because that woman drove me. That woman made me like, strive and you can. It's, don't put your fear away. Use it and harness it. And don't vanquish your critics. Prove them wrong.

Reshma Saujani (11:54)

Right?

Brad Meltzer (11:55)

And then the third one, the third magic trick, I think is arguably the most important one that I had to learn. Taking two things and making them switch places. And here let's talk about empathy, right? Because that's what empathy is. It's switching places with someone else and putting yourself in their shoes. But when I first moved to Florida from New York City when I was younger, my dad lost his job, we lost everything. And we moved in with my grandmother who lived in a tiny one bedroom apartment. My grandmother, my grandfather, and then four people in my family, six of us lived in a one bedroom apartment. Mom, dad, sister, myself and two grandparents. Wow. And everyone in Florida was trying to get us evicted because they were like, you can't have six people in there. And you know, condominiums are, they're like, you know, you have too many people and it's not. And everyone's trying to get us evicted. And my grandmother's neighbor across the hallway sees what's happening to us and she comes to my grandmother and she says, you know, I'm going to move out of my apartment and stay with my son for a couple of weeks. Why don't you take my apartment so your family can have some actual peace so your family doesn't get evicted? To this day, Reshma, the nicest thing anyone's ever done for me or my family. And I remember as a kid, her name was Mirsi. But when I was younger, I Always heard it as mercy, but make no mistake, mercy and empathy is what she showed me. And today, cruelty and venom and harshly judging those we disagree with, that's become sport in our culture.

Reshma Saujani (13:19)

Yep.

Brad Meltzer (13:19)

But cruelty and venom aren't signs of strength. There's signs of weakness and petty insecurity. What takes strength is actually showing empathy and showing kindness to people. That's a completely naive idea, but it's an idea worth fighting for. And so, to me, those four magic tricks, including transformation, we have to all be doing them every day. And it was funny when I told that story about Mircy in my graduation speech. 70,000 people in the stadium that I'm giving it to went nuts. And I was like, what just happened? I didn't understand what was happening. And when the video came out, it went, you know, like, Katie Couric started sharing it and Marie Schreiber. I don't know any of these people. They all started sharing, and the thing went everywhere, and all these people were writing to me saying, I want the text of that speech. I want to give it to my kids. I want to give it to my grandkids. Help me find it. I want it for myself. I'm in midlife. I need help. And I've been doing this 25 years. No one's ever asked for the text of anything I've said, anything. Nothing. But they wanted this speech. And I realized my wife said to me, you tapped a vein you didn't know was there. And what happened in that moment is we're a country right now starving for empathy, starving for kindness. And I think for those of us in midlife and those of us trying to find it, we know that. We all know we're starving for kindness. But I think the kindness we're not showing sometimes is the kindness to ourselves and giving ourselves a little forgiveness, too.

Reshma Saujani (14:42)

I think about this all the time. I mean, I do think my parents came as refugees. And I'm sitting here because so many people took them in, fed them, sheltered them, bathed them, hired them. And I. I do feel like we're at a moment now. Where is that empathy still here. I see it sometimes, like, in the mothers that are surrounding in Chicago.

Brad Meltzer (15:02)

Love it. Yeah, of course. You see the. I saw that. I saw that vice principal. That principal came out.

Reshma Saujani (15:08)

Oh, no. You know, but then there are times where I saw somebody, you know, an old person just trip and, like, five people walk by, and me and my son picked her up and, like, sat her down. And so it's just. Why do you think we're at this moment where it feels like empathy's on.

Brad Meltzer (15:22)

The decline because we're being inundated, right? Here's the thing about empathy is that it can get overloaded and if you start, you know, scrolling on your, you know, doom scrolling or you see the news, it feels like there's so much bad in the world and then you shut down. But you can't shut down. We need you. If you shut down, we're in trouble. But here's the other part about empathy is empathy is malleable. And if you want to know how to increase your empathy, if you look at social sciences, here's the answer. All you have to do is want more empathy. That's how it is. So it's like when you're in college, your first year, you make so many new friends. Why? Because you're open to making so many new friends. You just decide in your mindset, I'm going to be open to the universe and therefore it comes to you. And that's how empathy works. So I think right now we're at this moment where we're like, I'm going to just shut down because it's too much. But you cannot, you actually have to.

Reshma Saujani (16:14)

Be like, I'm going to open up.

Brad Meltzer (16:15)

You got to open up. And I know it's vulnerable to, but you've got to do it.

Reshma Saujani (16:20)

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James Corden (19:30)

On my new show, this Life of Mine, I sit down each week with some of the most fascinating people on planet Earth. From Dr. Dre to Julianne Moore to David Beckham to Cynthia Erivo to Martin Scorsese to Jeremy Renner To Denzel Washington, to Kim Kardashian. We talk about the people, places, possessions, music, and memories that made them who they are. These are intimate conversations full of stories that you've never heard before. This Life of Mine premieres October 21st, wherever you get your podcasts.

Reshma Saujani (20:05)

So, you know, I think a lot of women in midlife right now kind of feel like showing up as their real selves is hard because, like, life feels a little routine. Like, it's kind of like when we started this call about you going to that retreat. Like, it's like, now what?

Brad Meltzer (20:18)

Right?

Reshma Saujani (20:18)

Like, every day is a little like Groundhog Day. Like, you work, you caregive, you parent, rinse, repeat. Right? How do you pull off, like, the magic trick of being the best version of yourself when life feels both heavy and dull?

Brad Meltzer (20:34)

Yeah. I mean, that is the magic trick, right? I mean, the reason we turned it into a book is because so many people are like, tell me how to do it. And I think the answer is in yourself. And we all know this, right? If you start the sentence, if I just get blank, then I will be happy. That is not happiness, right? Whatever that blank is, is not happiness. And so whatever you're chasing for that, I think what you have to do is love yourself for exactly who you are. And I don't mean love yourself for the good parts. That's easy. You achieve something. You have your own podcast. You've done far more than that. Look how many people have benefited from your wise wisdom. But love yourself for your flaws. Love yourself for your temper. Love yourself for all, you know, losing it with your kids and knowing that they're going to probably do the same. Like, it doesn't make you, like, a bad person. It makes you human. And if you can accept that, you know what? I promise you this. You will have another bad day, and that's going to just be okay, rather than beating yourself up and being like, why did I do that? And my parents fought so hard for me to get me here. Why did I lose my cool on this? Why didn't I do this better with my kids? If you're chasing perfection, you're going to be miserable if you accept your flaws, you know? And again, I'm giving you all this advice of mine. It's what I'm working on. I don't have any more answers, and I'm struggling with it every day, day. But that's the fight I'm fighting right now. I'll take that fight.

Reshma Saujani (21:55)

So I re listened to your incredible TED Talk, how to write Your obituary first. I loved it because, like, I wouldn't. I realized, like, the woman who, like, changed your life. Ms. Spicer was like a woman in midlife. And I was like, hooray for us. Who was she for? Everybody.

Brad Meltzer (22:09)

Yeah. My life was changed by Ms. Sheila Spicer, my ninth grade English teacher. It was this African American woman who looked at me and she changed my life with three words. She said, you can write. And I was like, well, everyone can write. And she's like, nope, nope. You know what you're doing. And she tried to put me in the honors class. I had some sort of conflict. She said, here's what we're going to do. You're going to sit in the corner for the entire year, ignore every homework assignment I give, ignore everything I say, and put on the blackboard. Basically, you're going to do the honors work instead. And what she was really saying was, you're going to thank me later. A decade later, when my first novel was published, I went back to her classroom. I knocked on the door. She said, can I help you? I said, my name is Brad Meltzer. I wrote this book, and it's for you. And she starts crying. I'm like, why are you crying? And she said, you know, I was going to retire this year because I didn't think I was having an impact anymore. And I said, are you kidding me? You have 30 students. We have one teacher. And Ms. Spicer is arguably the most important person in my professional life and had no idea of her impact on me. No concept of her legacy. Right, because that's what legacy is. It's your impact on other people. Like, right now, for your example, how many girls out there that they have no idea who you are, you have no idea what their names are, but you're forever tied together and part of each other's legacies. And I love that. That's how the world works.

Reshma Saujani (23:36)

Yeah, you make me cry. That's what I was thinking about when I was listening to your speech about all, like, you don't even know, like, the impact that you make in the lives that you've changed. And, like, you know, of the kids I've taught and the people that have read your books. And it's just. And that's how we often think about Lexi. So the assignment we should give everybody who's listening, which I loved you gave at the end of your talk, which is like, thank the person. Like, you went to her retirement party. Oh, thank the one person. Because we all have this person, this teacher. Right. This person who likes the thing?

Brad Meltzer (24:06)

Everyone. Here's the thing is, I want you to think right now, I just told you that story. Think of your miss Spicer. Anyone listening right now, and it could be a camp counselor, the first person who told you you were good at something, the first person who took a chance on you, you got em in your head. Go thank them. When you're done listening to this podcast, instead of going back on Instagram, you know, go find them, track them down, and if, by the way, if they passed away, thank their child. Because once a year, my parents both passed away. And once a year, someone will write me through my website or Instagram or something else and they'll say, hey, Brad, I knew your mom. I knew your dad. In fact, I'm talking to you. Today's my mom's. She passed away. Would have been her 81st birthday. So I got mom, I got mom in the blood right now. And my mom, thank you. And they'll say to me, I knew your mom. They'll tell me a story that I didn't have. And on that day, I get the best gift of the whole year. I get a new story with my mother, the one thing I can't have anymore. And so track that person down and say thank you. You will never believe what comes from it, miss Spicer. When I went to her retirement party, you better believe I went there and that woman was a giant to me. But when I went to say thank you to her, I became the giant to her. And she lasted, by the way, she lasted 13 years after my original thank you. She continued teaching. It was one of the greatest.

Reshma Saujani (25:21)

Wow, what a gift you gave her. The other thing when you said, when you write your obituary, part of is like the impact that you had on your family and your family had on you. And you talked about your mother, right? How when you were selling your books.

Brad Meltzer (25:35)

By the way, I love you bringing this up because it's my mom's birthday and I didn't think I was going to tell this today, so I got.

Reshma Saujani (25:39)

To, in honor of my mother, please tell it.

Brad Meltzer (25:41)

So good.

Reshma Saujani (25:42)

Such a good story.

Brad Meltzer (25:43)

The legacy you all have. You have your family, you have your friends, you have your, you know, and coworkers. The third category is the legacy you have on your community. And then there's a legacy you have on complete notice. Strangers. And we're kind of going in reverse order. So let me go to my mom. So I go to the head of one of the biggest chains, back when Borders was big. I go to the head of Borders. And they say, guess where your books sell more than anywhere else? Straight sales, not even per capita. I say, I don't know. New York City? 8 million people in one place. No, said Washington, D.C. i write thriller set in D.C. nope. The number one place where my book sold was the Boca Raton, Florida Borders. One mile from the furniture store where my mother used to work. Which means my mother single handedly beat 8 million New Yorkers. Like that is the power of a mother. And my dad was no different. My dad would go into the local Barnes and Noble and he'd go like, I'm here for Brad Meltzer's new book. He's my favorite author. And they're like, Mr. Meltzer, we know he's your son. We know we got it. So those two people, my crazy parents, were the reason I have my career today. Because they would just go out and sell and sell and sell, like, just so proud that they got a son from our immediate family who went to a four year college that was a miracle to our family. And again, I'm, I realized my mother's legacy. Like, I'm part of that. Like she always was. Like, I didn't have an education and I didn't have this and I didn't have that, but I get to be her legacy. And on her birthday, I love that you let me celebrate her.

Reshma Saujani (27:14)

It's so interesting. I was, you know, my father, I ran for office twice and I lost twice. And he's always like, you need to run again. You need to run again. You need to. And I get, sometimes I get annoyed because I'm like, dad, you're making me. What about all the other things I do, right? Like, you're making me feel like he's not meaning to, but I'm like, you're making me feel like a failure. And I remember one of my, one of my spiritual teachers, like, hey, did you ever think that maybe your dad wanted to run for office? And in many ways he didn't get to. And he's trying to kind of live that dream and that's why he's like pushing you so much. And you know, it's interesting to, as you think about obituaries, right? Like, how much you feel like. We also think about the legacy that we have to fill because our ancestors, our parents, weren't able to.

Brad Meltzer (27:57)

And not only that, I mean, whether you like it or not, you're picking up the patterns of your parents, even if you're my, My parents were like, they were crazy. But I am littered with their Hopes, dreams, ups, downs, everything. And you are with your father. And there is no question in my mind that you are living in that, you know, kind of that version of your dad. You are. I don't care what he says. And even if he never said it, you're going to still feel it, because that's how we know if you have kids. Your kids feel it whether you like it or not. And they know if you say they bring home something, you go, yeah, that's great. My daughter goes, you don't like it? It doesn't matter what I say. We know. And so, of course you're picking that up. But I think what I've at midlife have been trying to do. I'll tell you this story that I've never told my dad again, used to blow everything up in our house. And when I graduated college, they ran out of money. They said, you're not graduating, Brad. So I had to, like, figure out how to get loans on the spot. And I got my feet settled. Then I graduated. And then I found out that he had opened all these credit cards in my name, like $40,000 worth of debt.

Reshma Saujani (29:04)

Oh, my God.

Brad Meltzer (29:05)

That's how he's paying for my college. It's just taking out new credit cards in my name that were coming to the house. And I get that settled, I figure it out, get my feet on the ground again. But every time something would happen, my dad would do something, screw it. And I spent so long in my life angry at my father, saying, why'd you do all these terrible things to me like you kept doing these dumb choices that gave me so much headache. And here's the part of the story I was missing. And I knew this. I said this at my dad's funeral as my dad used to get beat up by his own dad, used to physically get punched in the face. My grandfather was a boxer. And I know that my father used to jump in front of his younger brother to take the punches for him so he wouldn't get hit. I know he used to jump in front of his mother, my grandmother, so that she won't get hit by my grandfather. And I was so busy telling that story about how much my life sucked because of all the dumb choices he made that I missed. The fact that my father was trying to take punches for me so that I could get out. It was a terrible idea to open up $40,000 of credit card debt in my name at 25% returns when I can get a 1% loan. But he was trying to make it so that I didn't even have to take a 1% loan. He was trying to get me through college so I would financially be free. And he had a terrible way because he had no education to do it. But I couldn't see that part of the story because all I saw was my pain and my anger and I couldn't see his good intention. And to me, at midlife, like, what I'm trying to do with, like what you're saying about your dad is I know we can all immediately call to mind the wrong but realize like how much love and respect comes behind him saying, reshma, I don't care what anybody says, you are still the greatest and go do it again. He knows all the pain that caused you. He knows how devastating both losses were and he's still so convinced that you're the greatest woman in the planet. Go do it again. Because the world's gonna see you how I see you. Like how much love is behind that statement as well as how much guilt and judgment and whatever else goes with it's true.

Reshma Saujani (31:14)

We were sitting at the DNC and we're watching Kamal and he just looks at me like, could have been you.

Brad Meltzer (31:19)

No pressure though.

Reshma Saujani (31:20)

No pressure. But you're right, it's with love. And you could hear it as like you're judging me or make you're disappointed in me, right? I love a good cocktail. The ritual, the flavor, that moment at the end of the day when you finally exhale. But I do not always love how alcohol makes me feel feel. I want something that helps me wind down without just ruining my tomorrow. That's why I've been reaching for Little Saints. Little Saints makes elevated, non alcoholic cocktails that keep everything you love about a great drink minus alcohol. They're layered, complex, bar worthy drinks, not sparkling juice, not a health drink. Something you would actually be proud to serve when hosting. There's zero sugar, only 5 calories, and they are thoughtfully crafted with functional ingredients that add a subtle sense of calm and clarity without any buzz. For me, it's the perfect swap. On weeknights, I get to keep the ritual, stay present in the moment, sleep better tonight and still feel good tomorrow. If you love cocktails but not the chaos that comes with alcohol, Little Saints is worth trying. Visit littlesaints.com and discover your magic hour. Use midlife to get 15% off your first order. Little Saints products are non alcoholic. Functional ingredients are not intended to diagnose, treat or cure any condition.

Gretchen Rubin (32:32)

Is it just me or are things actually really scary right now in the World of public health. Every day brings another confusing headline or yet again, a far fetched claim. Vaccines are somehow up for debate and parents are scrolling TikTok for medical advice. I'm Chelsea Clinton, an advocate, author, investor, teacher and mom navigating this insane time right alongside you. I hope you'll join me on my new podcast, Podcast that Can't Be True, a show that sorts fact from fiction, especially on issues impacting our health. From Limonada Media and the Clinton foundation, that Can't Be True is out October 2nd.

Reshma Saujani (33:10)

So how did you get there? Because I think a lot of in midlife, a lot of what we're trying to get through is our, our challenges with our parents.

Brad Meltzer (33:19)

We'll never escape it. It's the most most complex relationship we have in our lives.

Reshma Saujani (33:24)

Right. So how did you get here?

Brad Meltzer (33:26)

One, I had to bury both parents.

Reshma Saujani (33:28)

And so was it after their death? Honestly.

Brad Meltzer (33:30)

Listen, I, I, I, I didn't bury either of them. Mad. You know, I, my mother, I always loved my mother. My mother always knew it. My and my dad, my dad and I just went head to head all the time because we just were, we're fighting like just crazy people. I made peace with my dad while he was alive, but I don't think I fully and I, in my head intellectually, I said all the right things, I did all the right things, but I did not realize until the past. I'm telling you, the make magic speech was part of it because I had to call it up. And I think part of it was just I use my novels as free therapy. I'm not joking. And so I write full novels. And then when I go and do the proof of it, I finally figure out what I'm dealing with. So I remember writing a book that I was like, what's this book about? And my mother was in hospice on her deathbed and I'm proofing it. So at this point it's done. You know, you're just doing the commas at this point, trying to find typos. It's printed, it's everything. The last pass. And I'm reading through it on the last pass and I go, oh my gosh, I forgot this character buried his mother. This whole book is about losing your mom before I buried my mom. I'm not smart enough to realize it, but it's just what I'm struggling with. And the most recent thriller, the Viper. Yeah, I write the whole book. The whole book. And it's got this setup and it's a thriller and it makes you Turn the page. This woman who's like a girl with the dragon tattoo, main character, but what she finally has to learn in the end is she's a painter. Then I won't ruin the end of the book, but I will ruin this line. There's a technique in painting that I'll never pronounce correctly, so I won't even try. But there's a technique in painting that when you look at any painting, there are the original lines that you put in as a painter, and then you see them and you don't like them, so you paint over them. And most paintings are everything on top of those lines. So in every painting, those original lines are like an original rough draft. And they're not good and they're bad, and they're mistakes, and they're things that are flaws, but you can't make a masterpiece without them. And I wrote that line. I was walking with my daughter, and I was trying to say, I'm like, these lines in the paint, I don't know what it is. And I was talking to my daughter, and I said, but you can't make a masterpiece with. I was like, oh, my God. That's was like all the stuff I was blaming on my parents. All the things you blame on your dad. All the things I blame on my dad. You can't make the masterpiece. You are Reshma without him. And I was like, oh, I need that, too. I need that, too.

Reshma Saujani (36:02)

So let's talk about Viper. So your new thriller's out now. It's your first thriller in four years. What pulled you towards the story?

Brad Meltzer (36:09)

You know, the thrillers always again, they're free therapy for me. The main character in chapter one walks into a funeral home, and he's carrying a blue suit. It's his suit that he wants to be buried in. Because if you have no family, you got to pick out what you're going to wear to your own funeral. Which is crazy to me. And you hand it over early. And here's the thing, is if you open up a bank account today, government fills out paperwork and this paperwork. If government wants to find you, they can find that bank account. You open up a. Go to the UPS store and open up a PO box, you fill out paperwork. If the government needs to find it, they can find you. But if you go into your local funeral home and you take the suit you want to be buried in and you sew something secretively into the hem of that suit and you give it over to that mortician and say, put this on me, When I'm buried, you now have in that funeral home the ultimate hiding space that no one will ever find. Wow. And so the guy walks out of the funeral home, goes back to his motel. Someone's waiting with a gun and says, where is it? And he says, what are you talking about? He goes, you know what it is? Where is it? Shoots him dead, searches his pockets. It's nowhere to be found. And no one can find it. But someone in that funeral home is about to find the greatest secret nobody knows about. And I just ruined chapter one of the Viper for you.

Reshma Saujani (37:21)

Yes, you did.

Brad Meltzer (37:22)

But what I wanted to deal with is the secrets that we hide, especially from ourselves. I was obsessed with that. I was obsessed with that idea of, like, you have the greatest secret that you're trying to hide and where do you put it? And the whole book is about, you know, I won't ruin it. But this Viper, and my main character is a woman named Nola Brown. And Nola is an artist who, when she paints and that's where the painting comes from, she can see the flaw in everything. So she can see when she's painting you, that Reshma, you pull your. Your belt buckle, tongue is facing this way, so you're actually left handed because you pull it with your other hand.

Reshma Saujani (37:59)

Oh, wow.

Brad Meltzer (37:59)

She sees which leg you favor and which knee is bad, so she knows which ones to attack. And when she paints you, those details pop out at her. And she's great at finding the flaw in herself. And that's what I realized. That's what I do. I find the flaw in everything. Every good situation, I look and I go, oh, here's the crappy part. Here's the thing that's going to come. Here's the thing that's going to fall because my dad put in me is always going to be a bad thing coming. Whenever you're happy, a bad thing's coming. And the Viper is literally me trying to figure out how to get to appreciate that those early lines, those early mistakes are all part of making the masterpiece.

Reshma Saujani (38:34)

So another thing I loved. So I'm a history nerd. And your thrillers are known for, like, pulling back the curtain on history, on forgotten heroes. And you were telling me this wild story that when you were first doing research for this series, you learned something about the role of our armies.

Brad Meltzer (38:52)

Yeah. The artist in residence.

Reshma Saujani (38:54)

Can you share that story?

Brad Meltzer (38:55)

I love this story. So this is all true. I was in this big warehouse with the military and they were showing me that it was like at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, this big warehouse. And I see they have all this art paintings. They have Adolf Hitler's paintings, but they also have all this other artwork from military members. And I'm like, why does the military and the army have all this art? And this is true that Since World War I, there has been an actual painter on staff in the army that paints disasters as they happen. Whether it's storming the beaches of Normandy, whether it's going to Vietnam, whether it's 9, 11. And I'm like, wait, you're telling me that everyone's racing in with guns blazing and you've got someone who's racing in with nothing but paintbrushes in their pockets? Wow, that's the craziest guy in the world. I wanna meet him. I can't wait. I gotta meet him. And they said, you mean her? You want to meet her? And it was a woman. It was a woman named Amy Brown. And Nola Brown, my hero. I named her last name after us as a tip of the hat and thank you to her. She was the Army's artist in residence, and she's the one who taught me all about this universe I built. Nola, who sees the flaws and everything on myself. But Amy Brown, this amazing woman who's an artist, inspired this entire universe that I started playing with. And she's the hero and the character that everyone loves in the Viper.

Reshma Saujani (40:18)

So this artist in residence is still. Like, there's.

Brad Meltzer (40:21)

There's still there. There's someone always. Amy's. Amy stepped down because you only get it for, like, two or three years. She was the artist in residence when I started researching. And it's an incredible job.

Reshma Saujani (40:31)

That's an incredible job.

Brad Meltzer (40:32)

And the thing is, you. You asked, like, we have videographers, we have photographers, right?

Reshma Saujani (40:36)

Why still do that?

Brad Meltzer (40:37)

Why would you have a painting? And here's why is. Because a painter, like a photographer, can catch a single young moment that happens. But what a painter can do is they can see some military people walking and make their eyes look sadder and make the rucksack look bigger and capture that, the depth of feeling that you're seeing in everyone, but that no one individual moment has. Because a painting is not capturing a moment. A painting is actually a story. And that's what I responded to, because I love a story.

Reshma Saujani (41:08)

Brad, this has just been such an incredible conversation. Last. Last question. So as someone who kind of thinks deeply about legacy, what's one habit, one practice, or one rule that you have that will help people think about what they should be Proud of.

Brad Meltzer (41:25)

Mm. Okay. So I'll give you my ritual.

Reshma Saujani (41:29)

Okay, give it to me.

Brad Meltzer (41:30)

My first book that I ever sold got 24 rejection letters. There were only 20 publishers. I got 24 rejection letters. Right. Some people were writing me twice to make sure I got the point. But I said, if they don't like that book, I'll write another. If they don't like that, I'll write another. A week later, I started my next book. And what I never tell in that story is the 23rd and 24th rejection letter I thought were going to be acceptances. They actually said they liked the book. And I had to meet with those editors. And my agent told me, I think they're going to go for it. You're going to have a bidding war. We're going to make a lot of money. And you're going to get out of debt, Brad, from all this college and law school debt you have. I was like, oh, my gosh. She said, wait by your phone. I wait by the phone. Because back then, you waited by your phone. And I pick up the phone, and I'll never forget. I think I'm going to find out how my book sold. And just like your election night, she says to me, sorry, kiddo, and my heart sinks. It's devastating, right? That moment when you just get that news that, nope, you didn't do anything. The whole thing's a failure. And my ritual every day is I replay that moment when I sit down. The right. I picture the kind of phone I was holding in my hand, which was clear and see through and had, like, the wires you could see because I was high tech at the time. I picture the bed and the box spring on my left. The swivel lamp that, you know, I had that was like every college kid has, because everyone needs a swivel lamp. I picture the balcony that I'm looking out at. And I count this. There's a fire station across the way. I count the three doors in the fire station. And every day, I never want to ever think I made it. I always want to appreciate how lucky I am that I got this writer's life. I always want to be as hungry as I was when I was 24 years old. And for nearly three decades now, every day that I sit down to write, I say to my head, sorry, kiddo. Sorry, kiddo. Sorry, kiddo. And that is, to me, the secret of appreciating what you have is appreciating what you also didn't have. Again, if you can love your flaws, then, man, you should love your good parts because we spend so much time like looking at our flaws and not giving ourselves the love we deserve. So to me, that's. That's the only way I can get there.

Reshma Saujani (43:39)

I love you, love you, love you. This was such a gift. Thank you so much everyone. Read the Vipers out now. Best book ever. Love you, love you. Brad's new novel the Viper is out now. Go read it. Like so much of his work, it's about the secrets we hide and the truths we finally are ready to face. But what I hope you take from this episode is the permission to be kinder to yourself. To thank the teacher who who changed your life to see the legacy you are already building. Before you go. Thank you for listening to My so Called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content you can't hear anywhere else. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com My so called Midlife is brought to you by Moms First. Come see what we're all about at MomsFirst US. I'm your host and Executive producer, Reshma Sajani. Our senior producer is Katie Eckstek Cordova, our producer is Beth Rowe, and our sound engineer and editor is Mary Kelly of Sweater Weather. Our theme music was composed by Ivan Kurayev and performed by Ivan with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Scheduling support from Cindy Cook. Sales and distribution is by Lemonada Media. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know what you're doing in Midlife. Follow My so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership and be sure to follow me, reshma Sejani and Moms first on Instagram, LinkedIn and Substack. Thanks and we'll be back next week.

Brad Meltzer (45:29)

Week.

Lemonada Premium Host (45:35)

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Gretchen Rubin (46:08)

Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

Reshma Saujani (46:26)

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer.

Brad Meltzer (46:29)

And producer in Hollywood.

Reshma Saujani (46:30)

Join us as we explore ideas and.

Gretchen Rubin (46:32)

Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.