No More Invisible Women with Molly Gochman

Summary

Podcast Summary

My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani

Episode: No More Invisible Women with Molly Gochman
Date: November 5, 2025
Host: Reshma Saujani (Lemonada Media)
Guest: Molly Gochman, artist and sculptor

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Main Theme

This episode explores the concept of "invisible women"—the undervalued and often unseen labor of mothers and caregivers. Through an intimate and empowering conversation with artist Molly Gochman, the show delves into how midlife can be a catalyst for women to claim visibility, pursue creativity, and demand recognition for care work. Gochman shares how her art—most recently, monumental bronze sculptures honoring caregiving—challenges public memory and societal values, making care visible, sacred, and central. The discussion also reflects on the challenges and gifts of midlife, intergenerational caregiving, creativity, and the importance of collective support among women.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Midlife Mindset and Personal Shifts

[03:30–04:33]

• Molly feels “pretty hyped” in midlife, creatively energized and less self-doubting.
  • “My kids are out of diapers, my parents who are left are in diapers. One of my kids is going through puberty. I'm on all the hormone replacement therapy. Like, it's like I'm in menopause, they're in puberty. So I'm in the middle of that, you know.” (Molly, 03:30)
• Both Reshma and Molly reflect on the exhaustion and complexity of this stage: parenting, caring for aging parents, managing hormone shifts.
  • “I feel, I feel it's hard to get up... Like, I am like barely getting up at 7 o’ clock in the morning.” (Reshma, 04:47)

2. Introducing Molly Gochman – Social Practice and Purpose

[05:34–07:00]

• Molly describes herself as a "social practice artist" using accessible materials to spark conversation about essential but neglected issues—caregiving and motherhood.
  • “I’m trying to leverage everything I have access to and all the tools in my tool belt, like artists do… I argue that we are all inseparable from one another and that all issues are inseparable.” (Molly, 05:34; 06:28)
• Her “inseparable” land art sculpture and “Monuments to Motherhood” in bronze highlight care work’s essential value.
  • “Caregiving is so undervalued, yet it is the most essential act. So I needed it to be in bronze because bronze is the material traditionally used for monuments, and it is a material that we value.” (Molly, 07:00)

3. Visibility, Monuments, and Public Memory

[07:41–09:33]

• Molly was inspired after noticing the overwhelming male presence in public statues, especially in Central Park—up until 2020, there were no monuments to real women.
  • “Monuments represent what we honor and privilege in public. We honor and privilege war… We have 59 monuments to war and violence for everyone that even references care in any way, shape, or form.” (Molly, 08:35)
• Her monuments do not depict historic figures, but caregiving acts—so everyone can “see themselves as a mother or capable of mothering,” and these are placed on the ground (not pedestals), reflecting mutual support.
  • “I wanted everyone to see themselves in it because I wanted everyone to see themselves as a mother or capable of mothering… so I’m saying motherhood…is something we understand.” (Molly, 09:33)

4. Caregiving and Its Impact on Identity and Choices

[11:30–13:00; 17:35–20:04]

• Molly cared for her father for nearly two decades alongside raising two children—often unknown to herself, but deeply shaping her identity.
  • “I didn't know that I was his, quote, caregiver until after he passed… My brother said, well, Molly, you were Dad’s primary caregiver.” (Molly, 17:35)
• The experience reinforced the need for workplace and policy changes—a “Bill of Rights for working moms,” enabling people to care for loved ones without penalty.
  • “We need these kinds of policy changes... so that people can take off to care for their loved ones or be there for their sick kids, and they're not penalized for it.” (Molly, 18:36)
• Her sculptures, supported by gravity, echo how “the ground supports us”—a metaphor for both care and legacy.
  • “So here is the ground supporting this giant heavy sculpture, just like I am supported by the ground.” (Molly, 19:15)

5. Connection, Community, and Collective Healing

[20:07–25:33]

• Molly’s installations are designed as “third spaces,” places for intergenerational and cross-community gathering and reflection.
  • “Inviting people into a public third space to gather and connect… that puts us on a topic that we can agree upon. I think we can all agree that care is essential.” (Molly, 21:20)
• Example: After replacing a monument to a KKK founder in Memphis with a monument to caregiving, the park became a place people felt safe and welcome again.
  • “So people are using this space that's meant for them, this public space, and really feeling seen.” (Molly, 23:02)
• Molly’s vision includes international expansion—placing monuments in Mexico and Brazil to reflect their unique community needs and models (e.g., Mexican “utopias” for communal services).

6. Midlife as Creative Catalyst—Permission, Worthiness, and Support

[27:31–30:55; 33:30–34:09]

• Molly found renewed purpose and confidence in her 40s, moving from supporting roles to “having her own voice” in the art world.
  • “It's essential for me to feel like my voice is being heard and I'm participating… and that involves, like, saying I am worthy.” (Molly, 27:38)
  • She made her first large bronze monument in her 40s as an act of creative self-nourishment after burnout.
• Permission to prioritize her dreams came from friends like Luana:
  • “The joy you want for others, get it for yourself.” (Luana via Molly, 29:16)
• None of her work is solo—large projects are always team and community efforts. Women shouldn’t feel they must do everything alone.
  • “I don't do any of this work alone. None of it… You need a support system.” (Molly, 29:55)

7. Creativity, Mental Health, and Surrender

[33:30–38:56]

• Molly’s creative focus sharpened with age; she’s become more efficient, less distracted by doubt, and more able to channel her energy for impact.
  • “Now that I'm older...I don’t have time to have doubt about this. I just stay really focused and I try to have maximum impact.” (Molly, 33:34)
• Raised by a highly creative but mentally ill mother, Molly once feared her own creativity could spiral into mental illness—anxiety she’s learned to manage.
  • “I did think that creativity came with mental illness. So I was really afraid of my creativity.” (Molly, 35:31)
• Advocates for normalizing conversations about mental health and caregiving in families and workplaces.
  • “Mental health care is part of our medical care.” (Molly, 37:01)
• Caregiving has taught her to “commit, surrender,” surf with what life offers, adapt to what’s possible.

8. Art, Recognition, and Societal Values

[38:56–39:50]

• Hopes for more institutional (museum) engagement with caregiving themes—seeing and valuing the art around care that already exists.
  • “I actually now go to museums with caregiving glasses on and see…That’s caregiving.” (Molly, 39:32)

9. Advice for Midlife Pivots and Empowerment

[40:06–41:24]

• Start with connecting to friends for support, advice, and “accountability partners” for any new direction.
  • “Just connect with their friends, talk with their friends…they can enable one another and be sharing tactics and sharing challenges.” (Molly, 40:06)
• Speak your ideas out loud—telling others builds momentum and accountability.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Midlife Energy
  • “I feel like I'm in full force with my work. I'm churning stuff out and I’m not doubting myself.”
    — Molly Gochman [03:30]
• On Monuments and Memory
  • “We are monumentalizing war. And right now...we’re going to have these warlike activities because we are honoring and privileging battling.”
    — Molly Gochman [08:35]
• On Caregiving as Universal
  • “I wanted everyone to see themselves as a mother or capable of mothering. So I’m inviting us to mother ourselves, mother each other...these are monuments that are on the same grass as we are.”
    — Molly Gochman [09:33]
• On Policy and Practices
  • “We need these kinds of policy changes...so that people can take off to care for their loved ones or be there for their sick kids, and they're not penalized for it.”
    — Molly Gochman [18:36]
• On Permission and Worth
  • “No, actually it’s essential for me to feel like my voice is being heard… I am worthy to be able to make my own art.”
    — Molly Gochman [27:38]
  • “The joy you want for others, get it for yourself.”
    — Luana (via Molly Gochman) [29:16]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | | --- | --- | | 03:30 | Molly describes her midlife mindset and the layering of care roles | | 05:34 | Molly introduces herself and the purpose behind her art | | 07:41 | Discussion about the lack of monuments to real women in public spaces | | 08:35 | Why monuments matter for cultural memory and societal values | | 09:33 | Molly explains how her “monuments to motherhood” are intentionally inclusive and grounded | | 11:30 | The personal cost and meaning of long-term caregiving | | 17:35 | Realizing the depth of her caregiver identity after her father’s death | | 21:20 | The role of public art in fostering community and intergenerational connection | | 23:02 | Example of Memphis park transformation after the removal of a racist monument | | 27:31 | How midlife brought newfound creative drive and “permission” to prioritize herself | | 29:16 | The importance of support systems and accepting help | | 33:34 | Molly’s creative focus intensifies with age; fears about creativity and mental health | | 37:01 | Need for open conversations about mental illness and caregiving | | 40:06 | Advice for midlife pivots: connect with friends and use accountability | | 41:40 | Closing thought: noticing (and creating) monuments to women and care |

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Takeaways

• Care work, historically feminized and undervalued, deserves public recognition—literally, in the form of monuments—and policy support.
• Midlife can be a time of creative flourishing and self-assertion for women, where giving to oneself is radical and essential.
• Community, collective action, and mutual support are at the heart of both caregiving and creative work.
• Art can be a catalyst for new narratives, healing, and public memory—reframing what society honors and preserves.
• Speaking your desires and dreams aloud, building support networks, and taking small but brave steps are key in making midlife pivots.

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For Listeners

This episode offers validation, practical wisdom, and inspiration for anyone navigating midlife, caregiving, artistic dreams, or simply seeking to feel seen in their everyday acts of care. It’s a call to make care visible, value your own creative worth, and gather in community—on the shared “grass” of our common experience.

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For more, look up Molly Gochman’s public installations in Brooklyn, Wasaic (NY), and beyond—or simply notice the quiet monuments to care in your own life and community.

Transcript

[Reshma Sajani]

Today's episode is supported by what Should I Do with My Money? An original podcast from Morgan Stanley. Let's be honest, money can make people feel insecure. That's why I love this podcast. It takes the fear out of talking about money by letting you listen in on real, unfiltered conversations between people asking big financial questions and the advisors who help them figure it out. It's smart, it's emotional, and it just might make you feel braver about your own money story. I just listened to the episode about the price tag of parenthood on what Should I Do with My Money? And it hit me hard. Every parent I know is doing the same math. How do we give our kids the best without burning ourselves out? This conversation lays it all out. It's smart, it's relatable, and it reminds us that financial planning is part of caregiving. Definitely worth a listen. Search for what Should I Do With My Money in your podcast player. We'll also include a link in the show notes. Thank you to what Should I Do With My Money? And Morgan Stanley for their support.

[Beth Breaux]

There's one thing that all people on earth have in common. We move through the world in a human body. Bodies ache. They bleed, they desire, they hold the stories of our lives. International Planned Parenthood Federation, or ippf, is sharing some of those stories from around the world. Read them now at ippf.org/everybody Lemonade.

[Reshma Sajani]

Hey.

[Beth Breaux]

Midlifers, Just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of My so Called Midlife Ad Free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to an exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Feel Better with David Duchovny, and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show. And Apple Podcasts make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. Welcome to My so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. Hi, I'm Reshma Sajani. Have you ever walked through a park and noticed how every statue seems to be of a man? In Central park alone, there are literally 140 monuments, and until 2020, none of them was a real woman. My guest today decided she was going to change that. Artist, sculptor Molly Gotchman is building monuments to something our culture has ignored for centuries. Caregiving motherhood and the invisible labor of holding everything together. Her bronze sculptures made from bowls and cleaning supplies, they honor these daily acts of love that we all do. And she puts it in the history books. We talked about what happens when you make care sacred instead of secondary. Why midlife gave her the courage to finally take up space. And how she's using her art to say, no more invisible women. Let's get into it. So. Hey, Molly, it's so, so, so great to be here. I'm so excited to have you on. We've known each other for a while and I have been looking forward to this. So when we start, I always like to ask, what is your midlife mindset? How are you feeling about this stage of your life? Excited, hyped, depressed? What is it?

[Molly Gotchman]

Pretty hyped. In my personal life, I'm pretty hyped. Like, I feel like I'm in full force with my work. I'm churning stuff out and I'm not doubting myself. So I'm just like going forward and not pausing as much. You know, my kids are out of diapers, my parents who are left are in diapers. One of my kids is going through puberty. I'm on all the hormone replacement therapy. Like, it's like, it's like I'm in menopause, they're in puberty. So I'm in the middle of that, you know.

[Beth Breaux]

And isn't that making you crazy? Because it's funny, you just kind of say that because I'm thick in like middle school applications for like my son. I just took my 80 year old dad on his birthday trip to Italy, so it was clear, oh, they're getting old, this is coming. And I too am like, you know, taking my estradol patch and my progesterone and like, I'm just exhausted.

[Molly Gotchman]

Yeah, I'm very foggy. Well, you know, the progesterone at night made me like in a complete haze.

[Beth Breaux]

Me too. Okay.

[Molly Gotchman]

So I backed off of it, but then stuff happened and my doctor's like, listen, you gotta take two a night. And now I'm taking them as early as 6pm and I'm not as groggy in the morning, but it is helping me get to sleep better.

[Beth Breaux]

It's like heavenly sleep, I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, yeah, but you're right. I feel, I feel it's hard to get up. Like, I am like barely getting up at like 7 o' clock in the morning. So, I mean, I ask you these things because it's just, it is such a Complicated period in life. You're right. I do feel more focused. I know how to say no. But there's all these other things that are happening that I have this undertone of just exhaustion or annoyance or whatever the opposite is of being carefree. You know, you and I have this very similar mission about women and mothers. And what I love is, like, you use your gifts as an artist to really spark conversation. Before we dive into your work, I want you to tell my audience, like, who is Molly Gotchman? Who are you?

[Molly Gotchman]

I'm a social practice artist. I'm a mom. I'm a daughter. I am currently using my art to deepen conversations and broaden conversations. I around issues that are really meaningful to me. And I'm trying to leverage everything I have access to and all the tools in my tool belt, like artists do, alongside these things or values aligned. And I have in front of me the Bill of Rights for working moms from you. And it's so inspiring. And it's that kind of work that I want to use my art to draw people towards. I had two openings a Saturday of two different works. One was a monument to motherhood in Wasaic, New York, and the other was a land artwork that I had applied to put places for years. I had one in front of the New Orleans Museum of Art for seven years that was only supposed to be there for a little while, but they kept it. They liked it.

[Beth Breaux]

They liked it.

[Molly Gotchman]

Yeah, it was great. And this is the word inseparable in braille. But it's over 100ft long, and it's all in turf grass. So the work comes out of the land, and they're just these giant bumps covered in grass and a field of grass. But I argue that we are all inseparable from one another and that all issues are inseparable. Right. The work that you're doing with moms first is inseparable from the work that I'm doing. Creating monuments to motherhood. Right. And inviting people to see care work as not only invaluable but essential. Right?

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah.

[Molly Gotchman]

My other art uses really inexpensive materials, like that's in earth, and I use sand, and I use discarded materials from construction sites. But for this, caregiving is so undervalued, yet it is the most essential act. So I needed it to be in bronze because bronze is the material traditionally used for monuments, and it is a material that we value. And also, when you touch bronze, the oils from your skin transform it in ways you can't totally predict.

[Beth Breaux]

Oh, my God. I didn't Even know that. So I want to talk about how this started, because I was listening to your podcast. You're taking a walk with your friend Eve through Central Park. What did you see as you're walking through Central Park?

[Molly Gotchman]

Monuments to men. Men and men.

[Beth Breaux]

And tons of them.

[Molly Gotchman]

Tons. And there was not one non fictional female until 2020. And it took a group of women philanthropists and activists coming together. They called themselves Monumental Women to get one monument to a nonfictional woman.

[Beth Breaux]

Who was it of?

[Molly Gotchman]

They couldn't decide.

[Beth Breaux]

They couldn't decide.

[Molly Gotchman]

Three women, three abolitionists, like Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and then they have Sojourner Truth. But they weren't really allies at the time, but they're at the same table. You know, there's complexity to what we eventually put there, but we just can't think that one monument is going to correct for over 100 years of this other work. So, like, we need more. We just need more.

[Beth Breaux]

So you're noticing, right? Like, wow, there's a ton of monuments. And they're like, of every fucking guy. Why are monuments important?

[Molly Gotchman]

Because monuments represent what we honor and privilege in public. We honor and privilege war. Right? We have 59 monuments to war and violence for everyone that even references care in any way, shape, or form. Right? So we are monumentalizing war. And right now, like, we just had warlike activity on my street yesterday in Soho. Like, we're going to have these warlike activities because we are honoring and privileging, battling.

[Beth Breaux]

Yep, that's right. And I went to one of your unveilings, and it was just incredible. It was so beautiful. And every time when I'm in that area, I look up and I'm like, okay, this is, like, what it's about, right? Is about love and valuing the very core of what makes. So you didn't decide to just pick a bunch of moms in history and make a monument of them, right? You were like, okay, I'm making monuments for moms. What's your next step?

[Molly Gotchman]

Yeah, I wanted everyone to see themselves in it because I wanted everyone to see themselves as a mother or capable of mothering. So I'm inviting us to mother ourselves, mother each other motivated, mother the earth. And these are monuments that are on the same grass as we are. So they're not on a pedestal. They are a mirrored reflection of us. And so I'm saying motherhood, like, this act of intense, deep caregiving and commitment is something we understand. We understand it's a gendered thing historically. And so how do you show up like A mother right to oneself, to one's community. And so I decided I needed to monumentalize this act of mothering. And can you monumentalize an act? And also that these acts that we do to care for ourselves and others are hard to put your arms around. Right? Like, you feed, you clean, you feed, you clean, you cook. These are everyday acts. And so the empty space that one walks within when they walk into the monument is made with bowls and cleaning supplies for my kitchen. So I stack that up upside down, and then I build a silicone mold over it, and that is what I use as the base. And then I create these loops because I talk about caregiving as, like, this endless loop. But also the loops support one another. So one loop is not standing there erect. It's these two loops that touch in different places, and they are mutually supporting each other, and then they're supported by the ground. So I'm talking about what are these regular, everyday activities that we do to mother ourselves and others?

[Beth Breaux]

And that's where some of this kind of inspiration started. I want to talk about your identity as a caregiver.

[Molly Gotchman]

Right?

[Beth Breaux]

You've spoken about being a caregiver for your father for almost two decades now. You're a mom of two, so you took care of your dad and in your 20s. Tell me about that experience.

[Molly Gotchman]

I'm so grateful to be able to do that. But I think when you choose to spend your time doing one thing, you're choosing not to do something else, right? So you're choosing not to go and network with other artists or not to go and spend some time in the studio.

[Beth Breaux]

And at this point, you know, you're going to be an artist. Like you. You're you. One of those ones who grew up, and you're like, I love art. This is what I want to do in my professional career.

[Molly Gotchman]

Yeah, I would waver. I thought I was gonna be a human rights lawyer like my dad, and.

[Beth Breaux]

Then like, oh, but I love this art thing.

[Molly Gotchman]

Yeah, I love this art thing. It's my guilty pleasure. And it can invite people to question for themselves in a way that if I was debating someone, they didn't. They weren't willing to think differently about something. But if they came across these graphs I was making about women based on, um, statistics about women, they're like, oh, wow, that's happening. I didn't realize femicide is a thing. What's femicide? Right. Like, they. They would bring their questioning, and so it allowed us to have different conversations and come at it in different ways. So that's what made me believe I should keep doing it.

[Reshma Sajani]

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[Beth Breaux]

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[Beth Breaux]

So you're fully decided to be an artist and then you start caring for your dad. Tell me about that.

[Molly Gotchman]

It was just automatic. Like it's what I wanted to do. So it's like, oh, you have a doctor's appointment. I want to go with you. Oh, you need. I want to be there. And I didn't know that I was his, quote, caregiver until after he passed. And my brother said, well, Molly, you were Dad's primary caregiver for the last years of his life. I'm like, caregiver? What's that?

[Beth Breaux]

You were just being like a dutiful daughter, right? Taking him to his appointments and being with him?

[Molly Gotchman]

Yes. Yes.

[Beth Breaux]

And did you feel isolated then because you were young? Like your friends are probably out partying, having a good time, and you're at home taking care of dad?

[Molly Gotchman]

Yeah, I enjoyed it. I know that it was different than what my friends were doing. Yeah, yeah, it was different.

[Beth Breaux]

I understand what you mean. I had my. My soul dog died about two years ago, and she had cancer. But I always. When I think back on it and I wrote about it, it's like the gift and the grace of being able to give back to somebody who has given to you and to love you and to care about them. It's such a gift.

[Molly Gotchman]

Yeah, it is. And that's why I think the Bill of Rights for working moms is so important. The suffering I would have felt if I wanted to be there to take care of my dad when he fell down the stairs or when he needed help getting to the bathroom or something like that, that I couldn't be there. That would hurt. And I think that we need these kinds of policy changes. We need changes in how companies operate so that people can take off to care for their loved ones or be there for their sick kids, and they're not penalized for it.

[Beth Breaux]

So how does this identity and this experience that you have with your dad translate into your art? And how soon after, when my dad's.

[Molly Gotchman]

Dad died, he said he felt like the floor was pulled from under him. And I think about how I can prepare my kids for my passing eventually and when they face death without me. And so I was thinking about what makes me feel held. And when I feel like there's nothing there supporting me, I remember there's gravity. And I try to feel what's beneath my feet. And so here is the ground supporting this giant heavy sculpture, just like I am supported by the ground. And I will be telling my kids in a note that I leave them that I'm there. I'm in the soil. I'm in the air. We are all stardust. We are all part of the same stuff. And I'm there to support them.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah.

[Beth Breaux]

What has been, like, the reaction.

[Molly Gotchman]

Reaction's been really beautiful. When I was first taking the fence off, groups of kids would come, and they came with their caregivers. And some were biological moms, some were not. But all of them felt seen in the work when they read the plaque and realized it was about caregivers.

[Beth Breaux]

Yeah.

[Molly Gotchman]

And it was for caregivers. And that's really beautiful. And that kids automatically know what to do. They automatically play with it, climb it, touch it, feel supported by it, and interact. And I love that.

[Beth Breaux]

One of the things I love about your work so much is that you want these installations to be places that service you say third places, like, people, like, come together. Like, I know your installation in Brooklyn, an organization is using it as a meeting ground to connect elders, Right. With our youth community. Like, that's so powerful. You have this intergenerational group kind of coming together and connecting. And I've been thinking a lot about, like, connection, and it's one of the biggest kind of threats that we face in our society right now because we're so divided. I mean, tell me about how you think art in connection can really be used right at this moment of real division.

[Molly Gotchman]

I think that caregiving is a topic we can all get behind. And so if we come together in honor and care, because it's something that's essential for all of us, whether we're providing it or receiving it, or doing both at the same time. And a lot of care work is done behind buildings. Right. Like in someone's living space. And so inviting people into a public third space to gather and connect in public and really have them nudged in the direction of connecting around care and thinking about caregiving, that puts us on a topic that we can agree upon. I think we can all agree that care is essential, and then we can peel back. Well, how does that show up and what can we do to support that? I think we can have those conversations when we come together around our commonalities.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah.

[Beth Breaux]

I thought one of the things so interesting about bringing, like, elderly people with children is, like, I was just talking about, like, you know, the sandwich generation. Like, so many people in my group chat are taking care of their kids, are taking care of their parents, and there's this, like, through line that's really important of seeing the connectivity that happens, you know, at both of these sides.

[Molly Gotchman]

Right.

[Beth Breaux]

And, like, what would a world look like where we valued the caregiving both for our young and for our old? How would we redesign it? What Would it look like? And if they're places that bring people together to have both these conversations and these insights, I think it's really, really critical. You have a monument in Brooklyn, and you have a monument in, like, Nashville, right?

[Molly Gotchman]

Memphis.

[Beth Breaux]

Memphis, right.

[Molly Gotchman]

I opened with Memphis, and there was a monument to one of the founders of the kkk and, you know.

[Beth Breaux]

Yep.

[Molly Gotchman]

War criminal. And people were afraid to use that part.

[Beth Breaux]

They didn't want to be there.

[Molly Gotchman]

They didn't want to use it. A guy who I talked to helped lead the movement to get rid of the old monument, said his dad grew up near the park, and he felt he could not walk safely through that park without being escorted by a white person.

[Beth Breaux]

Wow.

[Molly Gotchman]

Then the park just wasn't really used in that area. And now people have come back to that area. They got rid of the racist monument. Now they have these monuments to caregiving. And there's a college around the park. There are hospitals, There are training facilities for nurses around the park. And people are using the park again. So people are using this space that's meant for them, this public space, and really feeling seen.

[Beth Breaux]

How did you find that park? Like, how did you decide to have it there? Like, how did this even happen?

[Molly Gotchman]

Connecting, having conversations. So someone who knew about my work was in conversation with someone at a conference. She said, we need that in Memphis. This is what we have going on. And the woman who was leading the public art initiative in Memphis was a social worker who was now working on art, and she realizes how public art can change a neighborhood and make people feel more dignity for having art in their neighborhood. There's a lot of psychological stuff that art brings out.

[Beth Breaux]

So what's the dream? Like, where do you want to go next with this?

[Molly Gotchman]

Well, I just came from Mexico and talking about places that allow for that connection and gathering. Mexican mayor, she had this idea for creating these utopias in different districts. And the first one I went to, any female can walk into and you can get therapy, group therapy, physical therapy, mammograms, your hair done, your nails done, swimming lessons for you and your children. Like, amazing.

[Beth Breaux]

Is only for women.

[Molly Gotchman]

Oh, my God, that one's only for women. The first one I went to. Then I went to the biggest one, which is for everyone, but mostly it has recreation. So soccer fields, the biggest gym in the area, centers so people can have birthday parties and get together. All free. All free. So you can, like, create these opportunities for people to come together and get services and support. And if you're connecting in that way, then that's helping you organize. Right. That's helping you come together and organize and find your commonality.

[Beth Breaux]

So you're thinking of maybe bringing the monument to those community.

[Molly Gotchman]

Yeah. And then we're talking about bringing one to Brazil to work on this early childhood work that they're doing there, to celebrate that and monumentalize that and bring together more conversations around it.

[Beth Breaux]

What have you learned from this process or from this experience? Like, how does the movement for caregiving have to change, adapt, or grow from what you've seen?

[Molly Gotchman]

It needs to do all of those things. I think it needs to do those things that are responsive to the cultures where it takes place. And I think that caregivers and those supporting our societies, which is all of us in some way, ideally. But when you look at domestic laborers and what rights and representation they have compared to other laborers, it's stark. I think we're in a climate where it's getting worse, especially labor, that's seen as less visible. Right. And care work is less visible. And right now, with what happened on my street, with what's going on with ice.

[Beth Breaux]

What happened on your street?

[Molly Gotchman]

ICE came, did a raid in soho.

[Beth Breaux]

Oh, my God. It was nuts. Yeah.

[Molly Gotchman]

I've never seen anything like that.

[Beth Breaux]

It's about to get bad in New York. Yeah, it's coming.

[Molly Gotchman]

So I've kind of had a hard time thinking about anything except for that. And I think that the people being targeted are, quote, on the margins. Right. They think they're less visible. They have less power to advocate.

[Beth Breaux]

Yeah, right. And I mean, in Federal Plaza building, it's like they're actually people who are following the rules and showing up for their court appointments. You know, it's unconscionable. I often think about this because my parents came here as refugees, and it's such a contrast, you know, when you think about immigrants in this country, how much they love this nation and how we're treating them right now. So a lot of your success, and it feels like. I mean, I can feel like the energy and the love that you have for this work, you found that in your midlife. And I think that that's so powerful. I started this podcast because I think a lot of women feel like in this moment in their life, like, is this it? Am I done? If I didn't do it by the time I'm 45, it's never going to happen. But it's quite the opposite for you, right?

[Molly Gotchman]

Totally.

[Beth Breaux]

What do you think that's about? What's your secret? What would you tell other people? Like, what have you Learned, you know.

[Molly Gotchman]

What I've learned is, I think, you know, in the decades before this, I was playing a supporting role, which I still want to do, and I still want to play supporting other activists and other artists. But it's like the more you do, maybe the more abundant you can be. And it's like, I can do that and also have my own voice. So I don't want to operate from a place of scarcity where I think, oh, I only have time to be supportive of other activists and other artists and other movement. No, actually it's essential for me to feel like my voice is being heard and I'm participating. Participating and giving my full time treasure talent to it. And that involves, like, saying I am worthy, right? Giving myself a mantra of being like, I am worthy. I am worthy to be able to make my own art.

[Beth Breaux]

So wait, how old were you when you made your first big public piece?

[Molly Gotchman]

Early twenties. The welcome, which was part of the New Orleans Museum of Art, I probably did in my late 20s, early 30s.

[Beth Breaux]

But this the first monument you did, you were in your early 40s or mid-40s.

[Molly Gotchman]

That's like, in bronze. Like, I helped build a foundry. I'd made tiny bronze with other people. I hadn't made a bronze work myself of my own work. So I was really burnt out from all the other work I'd been doing. I'd been doing some electoral work. I felt burnt out. I needed to nourish myself. And actually making the work helped me heal.

[Beth Breaux]

That's so beautiful. How did you give yourself permission to do that? Because sometimes I feel like we think it's selfish for us to actually focus on what we need instead of just give, give, give, give, give, give, give.

[Molly Gotchman]

I didn't. I didn't give myself permission. I didn't think I deserved it. And Luana, who's your friend as well.

[Beth Breaux]

Don't you love Luana?

[Molly Gotchman]

No. No. The joy you want for others, get it for yourself. Like, okay. And it's great because I feel more abundant. I'm able to show up with more energy. And also I am able to have these conversations in ways that I'm truly invested in with my entire being, not just parts of it.

[Beth Breaux]

So you had a loana. So is it like you need people who are going to almost say to you, you deserve this, you can do this. What else do you think you need? Because I think there are a lot of women that are listening right now that are like, yes, that feel like all we do is give and we have our dreams and we defer our own dreams for often sometimes the dreams of others.

[Molly Gotchman]

Yeah, you need a support system. Like, I don't do any of this work alone. None of it. So especially when you see something that is the large bronze sculpture. I didn't make all of that in Manhattan. You know, like, I got help from a foundry to take my small model and produce it. So it is realizing that, you know, you're part of a community and things aren't solo. I think I look up to so many women and often I would just see, oh, they do everything. They do write all their own speeches and they're great at like this and they're doing that and they're also making their art. I'm like, no, wait, they get help.

[Beth Breaux]

I tell that all the time. I'm like, I got an entire team that like, enables me to show up. No one does anything by themselves.

[Molly Gotchman]

Right. And so realizing that and realizing that it does require leaning on others and working as a team and also taking a risk. Taking a risk on yourself.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah.

[Beth Breaux]

And being unable to find the time to do that. So there's one thing that all people on earth have in common. We move through the world in a human body. Bodies ache, they bleed, they desire, they hold the stories of our lives. And when people have power over their bodies, when they can access the care their bodies need, they can begin to write their own stories. International Planned Parenthood Federation, or ippf, is the world's largest network for sexual and reproductive health rights and justice. They are sharing real stories of people around the world. People like Alina in Malawi who walked miles to the nearest clinic to birth her baby, only to give birth along the way. Everybody holds a story, and you can read just a few of them [e-mail].

[Reshma Sajani]

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[Molly Gotchman]

Do you.

[Beth Breaux]

Notice, do you think your creativity, you've gotten more creative as you've gotten older?

[Molly Gotchman]

I have gotten more laser focused. So now that I'm older, like what you were talking about at the beginning of just feeling like, tired and I don't have time to like, have doubt about this. I don't have time to digress too far down this. I, I just, this is what I'm going to do and I got to focus on it. And like, I'm so efficient. So it's like I have an idea, I take out all the stuff that I don't need and I just do it and I, I just stay really focused and I try to have like maximum impact and not digress as much.

[Beth Breaux]

So where do you find your creativity? So I, for example, I'll go to a concert or a play at least every other week that like, to get that, you know what I mean? To like just be inspired. And I try to also find things that are not totally in my comfort zone or wheelhouse. Like what? Are there any tools or tactics that you do?

[Molly Gotchman]

Yeah, those things that can be our big hurdles can sometimes be our big gifts. So my mom has extreme bipolar and part of less than 5% that can't be held by lithium and did not see boundaries growing up. Right. Like, I also learned how to brush my teeth at school. You know, there was like nothing. There were no like meals or, or like bedtime, like things like that. So she was a creative. She was in theater and she was a creative. So I assumed everyone was imagining things all the time. And I did. I just thought everyone's brain worked the same as me. And when people are like, how do you have something? Like, how can I stop the ideas? Like, I have to just be like, don't, don't let any other ideas in. So my mind, and I thank my mom for it because, you know, she was mentally ill, so she was outside the box all the time. So I saw things that were, you know, difficult often, but that I think has allowed me to be creative. And I did think that creativity came with mental illness. So I was really afraid of my creativity. Like, if I do this, I'm going to become mentally ill. Right.

[Beth Breaux]

That's so interesting.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah.

[Molly Gotchman]

And so I was really scared to pursue anything that was on the creative path. But I've just been hyper aware of what I can do with my own mental health and what my boundaries are and how to get help and get check ins. Because my therapist said I'm like, but how do I know that I'm not bipolar like my mom? Or maybe I am. And he's like, because you come in here every week and ask, wow, so.

[Beth Breaux]

Does that scare you? Because that must be hard to as a creative person to feel like, wait, am I being creative or am I something happening with my mind?

[Molly Gotchman]

Yeah. Yeah, not anymore. So I was thinking about being in midlife. Right. Like when you have your first major breakdown, it's usually in your 20s. So I think I'm also past that state of fear. And also now that I've had my children, that's another hormonal change that can lead to your first nervous breakdown. And I'm past that. So I feel like I'm in an area of my life where my mom's mental illness got better around this time.

[Beth Breaux]

What do you feel like in our country, like, we need to change around awareness around mental illness and caregiving.

[Molly Gotchman]

We need to have more conversations like this one where we talk about it and bring it out. Because growing up there was such a stigma around mental illness. And you didn't talk about it. We never talked about it. And so I think talking about it and finding out ways people can access help.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah.

[Molly Gotchman]

Mental health care is part of our medical care.

[Beth Breaux]

So I mean, one of the things I really appreciated when I was the girls who code the amount of people that come in and be like, hey, so what are my therapy benefits? Like, I was like, wow, like we would never even admit that you went to a therapist because you were worried that someone would create some stigma. And I think now it's just much more in the open.

[Molly Gotchman]

Yeah.

[Beth Breaux]

Of people saying I'm struggling, or I need a mental health day, or is this medication covered under our health insurance? So I think the openness around the conversation has really shifted.

[Molly Gotchman]

Agreed.

[Beth Breaux]

You know, artists often talk about editing and surrender. Has caregiving helped you surrender and loosen your process and your need for control?

[Molly Gotchman]

Definitely, yeah. That's another mantra of mine, like, commit, surrender. It's also figuring out what are the things you can't control. And I have a work right now that I'm doing with New York City Housing Authority. It's in an old pizza shop. It's like, oh, well, what are the things that I can control in this environment? Right. And what are the things I can't control? And rolling with it. And I tell younger folks all the time, I say, I have just surfed with what life's given me, so I have an opportunity to do work in a median. And I'm gonna do the best work I can do in that median. I'm gonna do the best work I can do in this, like, old checker slash pizza shop. You know, use what's there and know what I can change and what I can't.

[Beth Breaux]

Is there a place that you're trying to get to from a success perspective or perfectionist perspective, or do you feel like this is it? Because I always feel like it is so hard to be an artist. You have to have rejection. You know, I mean, it's just. We're also, like, in a moment where I don't know if we have the same resources that are going into art, the same reverence for art. Like, it's. It's a challenging time period for some of that. And I think people are feeling dark. So oftentimes when you're feeling dark, you.

[Molly Gotchman]

Don'T feel like creating, I think, more institutional engagement. So I think having work around caregiving, being brought into museums, and having this work in museums or in sculpture gardens would connect the art world with these other public spaces.

[Beth Breaux]

I like that.

[Molly Gotchman]

Yeah.

[Beth Breaux]

I sat on the board of MoMA, and I'll tell you, like, I don't think we were. You know what I mean? Like, I think really thinking about, let's do an exhibit really focused on this or bring in a bunch of artists really focused on caregiving. I think that would. Would have been really powerful.

[Molly Gotchman]

I think so too. And I actually now go to museums with caregiving glasses on and see, like, the work behind you. That's caregiving.

[Beth Breaux]

Yeah, that's Krishna's Mother.

[Molly Gotchman]

There's so much work like that in museums, in their collections, and they could Bring it all out. That would be easy. They don't need to acquire anything new.

[Beth Breaux]

And I think we would respect that work more. So just to close, like, you know, there's for people that are thinking about pivoting in midlife or prioritizing their work and the things that they love, what's one small experiment they could try or small thing that they could do to move in that direction.

[Molly Gotchman]

Just connect with their friends, talk with their friends. Like, I had a friend visiting yesterday, and she's looking at pivoting and she's looking at her friend who's trying to start this business in California. And how can she maybe connect with that friend? And together they can enable one another and be sharing tactics and sharing challenges and I think moving that forward.

[Beth Breaux]

Yeah, I love that. Accountability, partners. I do think it's like, I used to always say, like, if you have an idea and you're at a dinner party, just tell everybody about it. Because then you, like, we don't like to fail. So then we're like, oh, shit, I told everybody I got to do it.

[Molly Gotchman]

Totally. And I have this friend, Gabby, and she talks about manifesting. And I've started to put things out there, like, at dinner parties, like, and I'm going to try to get my work international. Like, I'm going to try to, like, Mexico has parody. You know, they have a female president who's doing awesome things. We need to, like, recognize what's working. Right? And I say, I've spent so much time focused on exploitation and, like, what is not working. I want to focus on the anecdote. Like, care is the anecdote to exploitation. And let's focus on who's doing it, right? Like, let's focus on the utopias. Or there's this cool work in Columbia where they create these blocks that support women.

[Beth Breaux]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Molly Gotchman]

We need to do that.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah.

[Molly Gotchman]

So just highlight what's working.

[Beth Breaux]

I love that. There's so many great models. Well, listen, this was a great. This was an incredible conversation. You're such an inspiration. Everybody who's listening, find your monument in your area. And if not, send Molly a note and say, come here, because we want them everywhere.

[Molly Gotchman]

Thank you, Ashma.

[Beth Breaux]

And I think you've given everybody inspiration that when you're walking in a park and you're in a new city to look and notice how few monuments we have and stories we have about women. And we gotta change that because it matters. So thank you so much for your work and thank you for this conversation.

[Molly Gotchman]

Thank you, Reshma.

[Beth Breaux]

Thank you so much Molly Gosman for joining us and thank you for the monuments that we didn't know we needed. You can see Molly's installation in Brooklyn, Wasaic and beyond, or just start by knocking, noticing the quiet moments of care all around your life. Before you go. Thank you for listening to My so Called Bid Life. If you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content you can't hear anywhere else. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all the other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com My so called Midlife is brought to you by Moms First. Come see what we're all about at Momsverse US. I'm your host and Executive producer, Reshma Sajani. Our senior producer is Katie Eckstek Cordova, our producer is Beth Breaux, and our sound engineer and editor is Mary Kelly of Sweater Weather. Our theme music was composed by Ivan Kurayev and performed by Ivan with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock Scheduling support from Cindy Cook Sales and Distribution and is by Lemonada Media. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know what you're doing in Midlife. Follow mysocalled Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership and be sure to follow me, Rashmi Sejani and Moms first on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Substack. That's it for this episode of My so Called Midlife. See you next week.

[Molly Gotchman]

You know when you're just going about your busy day and a voice asks.

[Reshma Sajani]

You something like why do people have crushes?

[Molly Gotchman]

Or do dogs know their dogs? The Brainz podcast is here to help. Every episode answers tough questions with funny skits, cool facts and more. It's a science show for kids of all ages. Whether you grew up with jfk, mtv, tlc, or tmz, Brainson is for you. Listening may induce uncontrollable laughter and turn backseat squabbles into harmonious car trips. Find Brainson wherever you get your podcasts.