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- [00:00]
Reshma Sajani
Every new year I set the same intention more energy, better focus, stronger routines. I was doing everything right, sleeping enough, eating well, moving my body, but I still felt tired. I had no idea that low iron can quietly affect your energy, focus, mood or that over one in three people worldwide suffer from low iron, but most don't know it. If you're suffering from fatigue, constant headaches, irritability and even brittle nails and hair breakage, then you might have low iron. That's what led me to Sideroll from Pharma Neutral Citarol is a premium iron supplement supplement designed to help your body absorb iron more effectively without the stomach issues people often associate with traditional iron supplements. It's gentle, easy to tolerate, and designed to fit into real life. Sideroll is made with just two main ingredients, iron and vitamin C and a simple once a day capsule you can take anytime. It's backed by over 20 years of research, more than 150 clinical studies entrusted by over 2 million people worldwide. Head to pharmanutra-us.com and use Midlife Crisis for 10 off your first order of Citarol. That's P H A R M utra-us.com promo code MIDLIFE Crisis Hiya Julia.
- [01:10]
Louis Dreyfus
Louis Dreyfus here from the Wiser Than Me podcast. Among other things, and I've got a bit of a hot take. Our relationship to our food can feel disconnected. We don't always know how or where our food is grown, and if we throw food scraps in the garbage, we don't think about where it's going. Or at least we try not to. One way that I get back a little of that connection is by using my mill food recycler. Sure, mill has totally changed my home life in a lot of practical ways. It works automatically. You can fill it for weeks. It never ever smells. But this is also really important. When I use mill, I'm participating in a circular system. All the food I don't eat is helping to grow the food that I do. It makes me feel like I'm part of something bigger and that feels really, really good. And it's all so ridiculously easy. I just drop my scraps in my mill and it transforms them into nutrient rich grounds overnight. I have mine sent to a small farm, but if I wanted to, I could use them in my garden or for my backyard chickens if I wanted. Backyard chickens. And I don't know, maybe I do now, maybe I don't. Anyway, maybe mill is transforming me too, just a little. If you want to feel more connected or you just want your kitchen to feel less gross. Try Mill's Risk Free Trial and just live with it for a while. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.
- [02:46]
Reshma Sajani
Lemonade.
- [02:50]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Hey Midlifers, Just a quick message.
- [02:52]
Reshma Sajani
Before we get started. You can now listen to every episode.
- [02:55]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Of My so Called Midlife Ad Free.
- [02:57]
Reshma Sajani
With Lemonade Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [03:00]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
You'll also get ad free access to an exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus.
- [03:07]
Reshma Sajani
Feel Better with David Duchovny and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show and Apple Podcasts make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. Welcome to My so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. Motherhood has become a constant trial by jury. Every choice feels like evidence in a case you're building for or against yourself. Are you working too much? Not enough? Are you present? Not present enough. But what if we stopped asking whether mothers are doing it right and started asking why the system makes it so damn hard to do it at all? That question has been living in my head lately as I've been working on a documentary about motherhood America that's going to premiere this spring, and it's why I was so excited to talk to today's guest. E.J. dixon is a journalist and a cultural critic whose work I have long admired. Her writing refuses to moralize and instead asks a much harder question. Who benefits from the impossible standards women are held to? Ej's new book, One Bad Mother, takes on one of the most tightly policed identities in American culture, and it pulls it apart piece by piece. In this conversation, we talk about how the idea of the good mother is a new invention, how guilt became the operating system of modern parenting, and why women are still pushed to believe they have to choose between building a life they want and showing up for the people they love. If you've ever loved your kids fiercely, while also wondering what happened to the.
- [04:59]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Rest of you, I think this episode's gonna make you feel really seen.
- [05:04]
Reshma Sajani
So let's get into it.
- [05:08]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Ej, it's so good to have you on the show. I'm so excited to talk to you because One Bad Mother is like an incredible read. Like, I loved it. Thank you. I spent the entire weekend with it and it Was. I've already had, like, 20 conversations about it, so.
- [05:23]
E.J. Dixon
Oh, my God. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having. I'm really honored to be here.
- [05:27]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
I'm so excited. So I always like to start with, like, what's your midlife mindset? So in this moment, do you feel like midlife? Yeah. Rock on. Or are you like, this sucks?
- [05:39]
E.J. Dixon
Oh, I am in complete denial about it, I would say.
- [05:43]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Wait, and you're like, 35 and over, right?
- [05:45]
E.J. Dixon
Yes.
- [05:45]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Okay, good. So you are in the club. Okay.
- [05:47]
E.J. Dixon
I am 36. So, yeah, I. I would say I am in sort of denial about it. I mean, I. I'm sure that people tell you this all the time, and they come on here. Like, I feel like internally, I'm 20 years old, and then, like, if I go out and have a drink and I wake up in the morning with a splitting headache, I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm not 20. So. Yeah, I mean, I. I would say that I'm sort of in the denial phase.
- [06:13]
Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [06:14]
E.J. Dixon
But I. I'm getting there. I'm getting there.
- [06:16]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
You're getting there?
- [06:16]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah.
- [06:17]
Reshma Sajani
It's funny. It's.
- [06:17]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
I mean, I. I think I. Ilana Glaser said to me, she's like, ever since I was little, I wanted to be old. So I think if you're one of those people and you arrive, you're like, finally, you know, like, all I wanted to do was go to sleep at 8 o' clock anyway. But I still feel like a teenage girl. I dress like a teenage girl. Like, I'm obsessed with teenage girls. So it's like, I think age has always been getting older has been just something I really have struggled with more than some of the folks that I've interviewed on the show.
- [06:43]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah, it's a huge struggle. I mean, everything about it.
- [06:46]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [06:47]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
So, look, you spent years writing about gender and power, and when you had a baby and you became a mom, it seems to have, like, really struck a nerve with you. What happened.
- [06:58]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah, I think every mother has the same experience where they realize they're just treated completely differently. You know, specifically, they're treated worse.
- [07:06]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Do you remember the first moment you felt that way? Cause I remember mine.
- [07:09]
E.J. Dixon
What was yours?
- [07:10]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Well, I think the first moment that I realized it, I was at the park with my friend Deepoku, and we had both similarly had babies. And I looked at her, I remember being like, dude, I didn't fucking know it was gonna be like this. And she was like, oh, my God, me either. It's kind of, like, you talked about in your book. And it sounds naive that, like, we didn't think before we became moms that it was gonna be hard or that people were gonna treat us differently, but I genuinely kind of was, like, with.
- [07:36]
Reshma Sajani
You, which was like, what the fuck is this?
- [07:38]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah. I thought I'd be the exception to the rule, which is an insane thing to, like, admit in retrospect. But, like, I definitely did. I thought, like, oh, I've managed to, like, forge a career in, like, a competitive industry. Like, I've done okay for most of my life. Like, this should be a cakewalk. And it's very much. Was not. The first time that I realized that people treat you differently when you're a mother was when I was on maternity leave with my eldest son. So this was like, nine years ago, and I was in Clinton Hill in, like, the Pratt area, and I was trying to go into a coffee shop with, like, my big ass stroller. You know, those huge infant, like, newborn strollers.
- [08:16]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Yeah.
- [08:16]
E.J. Dixon
And the coffee shops was, like, very narrow, and everybody looked at me like I had pooped on the floor. Like, just, like, I was just. It was just immediately apparent that, like, I was unwelcome, that I was taking up space. And, like, I literally was taking up space. Like. And I. And I feel that way when I see other moms in tight spaces with strollers. Like, I have the same reaction. I'm like, oh, my God. Like, this is. You know, and it's like, this is such a personal inconvenience to me. And, you know, and then I kind of, like, check myself and I'm more sympathetic. But that's everybody's immediate reaction when you're a mother is that you're just like, there's an extra person with you and you're both taking up space.
- [08:56]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [08:56]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
And it's often about space. Right. It's like I remember getting yelled at for having dinner with my kid on a sidewalk in Chelsea. They're shouting or doing whatever, and I'm like, we're on a fucking sidewalk. Like, there are 10 fire trucks that have just passed by. Didn't seem to disturb you, but my kid screaming out. But it is this sense of, like. And it's a very American thing of like, you're disrupting somebody's time or space.
- [09:21]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah. You're constantly apologizing. Like, I don't know.
- [09:23]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
You're constantly apologizing.
- [09:25]
E.J. Dixon
I don't know if you've seen those tiktoks of, like, the moms who hand out goodie bags. On the plane to apologize for their babies.
- [09:30]
Reshma Sajani
Yes, I have.
- [09:31]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah. It's just such a crystallization of that. Yeah.
- [09:34]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Of, like, what the expectation is. So, you know, one of the things.
- [09:37]
Reshma Sajani
I also loved, as you wrote, and.
- [09:39]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
I really felt this hard, is that, like, this judgment that you have for yourself of being, quote, a bad mom, or the idea that, like, a good mom carries so much weight. When did that standard, like, start? Because in this book, you're kind of being really vulnerable because you're expressing moments.
- [09:58]
Reshma Sajani
Like I had last night when I just, you know, came home from having.
- [10:01]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
A margarita with a friend and just wanted to go to bed, but my kids were there wanting to sleep with me, and I'm just like, shut up. You know what I mean? I just want to take a magnesium and pass out. You know that you're not supposed to feel that way according to Instagram, but you do. And so you immediately have this, like, judgment.
- [10:19]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah. I mean, I would say that I am sort of in the unique position of being a person without a filter, of being the person who, like, has sort of made a career saying things that. Or trying to say things that other people won't say. So I would say that I'm less vulnerable to the internalization of feeling like I'm a bad mom.
- [10:45]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
You don't fall for that policing that often happens on social media.
- [10:48]
E.J. Dixon
Probably not as much as some other people, just because, like, I'm generally not a person who, like, gives a shit about most things.
- [10:55]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Right. You're the person who took pictures of, like, dead rats while you were like. And showed them on dates. Yes, I read that.
- [11:00]
E.J. Dixon
Yes. Yeah, I never showed them on a date. I showed that I would show them to people at parties, but it was usually men, so it's actually a date is, like, not far off. So, yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm somewhat less vulnerable to that than a lot of other people. But I also realize that's coming from a place of privilege. And I talk about that in the book. Like, I'm white and middle class, and, like, the consequences for me being labeled a bad mom are much less severe than they are for a woman of color or from, you know, for a woman of a marginalized background. I have read countless stories in researching this book about women who, you know, basically do nothing and get CPS called on them, you know, and their kids threatened to take away just because they don't conform to, like, white, heteronormative, patriarchal standards. So, like, I do realize that, like, and acknowledge that, like, I am In a position of privilege by, like, publicly acknowledging that I'm a bad mom. But I also genuinely don't feel like that that should be something that we're embarrassed about saying. Like, I don't like tummy time. I don't like birthday parties. I don't like plate. Like, who does?
- [12:07]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Yeah, you said. I'm more interested in exploring why the difficulties of working motherhood are still very much part of the cultural conversation. So why is culture important? Because why we feel policed is because the culture still depicts a mother who doesn't say she doesn't like Tami time.
- [12:26]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah, because the culture reflects back your reality to some extent, like a refracted version of reality. So I think the thing that really inspired me to write that chapter, which is sort of centered around Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, that's like, a contemporary telling of, like, a housewife in the early 1960s. But, you know, it was made in, like, 20. 20, 2021. And it just seems like the writers couldn't figure out the problem of, like, well, what do we do with her children? Like, she's a mother. She has these two very small children, a notoriously, like, obtrusive demographic. How are we going to, like, frame her upward career trajectory while also acknowledging the kids and the role that the kids play? And their answer was basically just to ignore the fact that the kids exist. Like, as I write in the book, you basically don't see them until, like, the end of the show.
- [13:15]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [13:16]
E.J. Dixon
And I just thought that was a very potent metaphor for, like, how we still talk about working motherhood in our culture. We still cannot reconcile, even though pretty, you know, the vast, vast, vast majority of mothers work full time. But we still cannot reconcile that reality with the fact that they are supposed to be mothers, that they are supposed to be caretakers first. Like, we can only consider women one or the other at any given time, and that just seems like a problem we should have figured out by now.
- [13:44]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. When life gets busy and stressful, it's easy to put things off, especially when it comes to our mental health. We tell ourselves we're just stressed or tired or that this season is intense and that we'll deal with it later. But if anxiety and depression or ADHD are more than just a rough patch, sometimes you need real psychiatric care, not just another tool to manage. That's why I want to tell you about tochiatry. It's 100% online psychiatry practice, which means you're meeting with a licensed psychiatrist who can diagnose mental health conditions and prescribe medication when it's appropriate. This isn't therapy, only support psychiatry focuses on psychiatry and they accept major insurers, which matters, especially in midlife. You'll meet with experienced psychiatrists who actually takes the time to understand what's going on and builds a personalized treatment plan. Your care stays consistent and evidence based and it all happens from home. If you've been thinking, I'll deal with this later, maybe this is your sign. Head to tokyotry.com midlife to complete the short assessment and get matched with an in network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. That's tochiatry dot slash midlife. Something I've really learned in midlife is that low energy doesn't mean you're giving low effort. You can be doing all the right things, eating well, moving your body, getting sleep and still feel off. And ladies, not everything is hormonal. A big part of how we feel has to do with declining cellular energy and you can't out train that it's really this simple. When your cells have more energy, everything just works better. That's why I've added my Appear gummies from timeline to my daily routine. They're longevity gummies designed to support cellular energy so you can feel stronger and more vibrant as you age. They're powered by might Appear, an ingredient that's been studied in human clinical trials and shown to support mitochondrial health, which is a key driver of healthy aging. This has become one of the few daily habits I actually stick with. Two gummies a day. That's it.
- [15:35]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
I keep them right next to my.
- [15:36]
Reshma Sajani
Coffee and it feels simple. They're clean too, vegan, sugar free, non GMO and backed by more than 15 years of research. If you want to support your cells and how you age, visit timeline.commidlife to save up to 39% off my to pure gummies.
- [15:50]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
That's timeline.com Midlife Midlife has a way.
- [15:54]
Reshma Sajani
Of sharpening your perspective. You start asking better questions about what actually protects your family. And something we probably don't think about but should is life insurance. Not because we're avoiding it, but because we assume what we set up years ago is still fine. But costs change, coverage needs change, and what made sense then might not make sense now. That is why I'm taking a fresh look at my life Insurance with Select Quote for over 40 years, SelectQuote has been one of the most trusted insurance brokers, helping more than 2 million Americans secure over $700 billion in coverage. Unlike one size fits all insurance companies, select quotes, licensed agents work for you in as little as 15 minutes. They compare policies from top rated carriers to find the right fit for your health and your budget. And they do it for free. No medical exam, no problem. They partner with providers offering same day coverage up to $2 million. And if you have pre existing health conditions like high blood pressure, diabetes or heart disease, there are options designed with that in mind. Life insurance is never cheaper than it is today. Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50%@SelectQuote.com midlife that is SelectQuote.com midlife I feel like in midlife I finally understand what I don't want in my closet. I don't want fussy, I don't want trendy for five minutes. I want pieces I can actually live in again and again. That's why I love Quince. They're all about elevated essentials that feel effortless. These are the kinds of pieces that just work for layering, mixing, building a wardrobe that actually lasts. They've got all the staples covered. Think 100% organic cotton sweaters, premium denim with stretch so you're comfortable all day. And these luxurious cotton cashmere blends that are perfect for the in between weather.
- [17:32]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
We'Re always dealing with.
- [17:33]
Reshma Sajani
What I also really appreciate is that Quince works directly with safe, ethical factories and cuts out the middle band. So you're not paying for a brand name, you're paying for quality. The fabrics, the stitching, the fit, you can tell these pieces are built to hold up season after season. So if you're ready to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel timeless and well made, go to quinns.com midlife for free shipping on your order. And 365 day returns. They're now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com midlife free shipping and 365 day returns.
- [18:04]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Why do we still view it as like this puzzle that we're trying to solve rather than acknowledge it as the reality that it is? Because there could be different reasons for doing that. One could simply be to continue to gaslight us and make us feel crazy, right? And to make us constantly feel like, well, actually you were supposed to pick rather than this is the reality. It could be because it's the only way to get rid of the competition, which women are, quite frankly to men. You know what I mean is by continuing to make us feel like we're failing at something. Why do you think that is? Why is everybody in on this joke or deception?
- [18:40]
E.J. Dixon
Well, I think there are logistical reasons, you know, because of the country we live in and because, you know, the policies that you advocate for on a daily basis that we, you know, just don't have paid leave. I mean, there are logistical reasons why it's so difficult to be a working mother. But I think the primary reason is exactly what you said. I don't think that that is a bug. I think that is the function of the plan. Like, I think that culturally, men have never been comfortable with the idea of women in the workplace. Even though 70 to 75% of women mothers are currently have, like, full time jobs, they're still not comfortable. You know, and now that the cultural climate is becoming even more restrictive and even more conservative, they are increasingly less so, and they increasingly feel emboldened to say they're less so. You know, like, we have people like J.D. vance, like, saying out loud like, a woman's place is at home. And not like, exactly, but, you know, basically dancing around it.
- [19:36]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
I mean, you kind of have Erica Kirk saying the same thing. Yeah, yeah.
- [19:39]
E.J. Dixon
And the culture is elevating these voices. So I think it is very much intentionally gaslighting women and making them think that they are not capable of pursuing autonomous careers or autonomous selves because they should be at home.
- [19:57]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [19:58]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
So if you had to explain American motherhood to someone outside of the U.S. what do you think would shock them the most?
- [20:05]
E.J. Dixon
Oh, my God. That is such a good question. Well, I think historically, the thing that surprised me the most in researching the book was that the concept of the good mother, like, just didn't really exist in the United States until a hundred years ago. There were no standards for, like, being a good mother. Like, there were standards for being an industrious worker. There were standards for being, like, a good wife and, you know, a sexually prudent woman. But there were no standards for being a good mother. Like, the standard was, basically, you keep your kids alive.
- [20:36]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
That's what I found so fascinating too.
- [20:38]
Lemonada Premium Announcer
Right.
- [20:38]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
In colonial America, women were not judged by child rearing skills, but by their work ethic.
- [20:42]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah. Like, how much they could contribute to the household, which is crazy. That's not what we think of, you know, in terms of, like, how we think of women in work today, because we think of it as, like, two very different, very siloed areas of life. But historically, that hasn't been the case. Like, work was very much always a part of women's lives.
- [20:59]
Gretchen Rubin
Yeah.
- [20:59]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
So in the 15th century, that's what the deal is. Right. Women are industrious, they bring home the bacon and skin it too, or whatever.
- [21:04]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [21:05]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
They are economically part of the economy, critical part of it. And then that changes in the Industrial Revolution. Right now you start seeing these kind of bifurcated roles.
- [21:16]
Reshma Sajani
Why do you think that changed?
- [21:18]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah, there just became such of a sharp division between the public and private. Men were sort of expected to participate in the industrialized economy and they were supposed to have something to come home to, you know, like a welcoming hearth. An angel in the house is the trope that I refer to in the book. Yeah, I love it.
- [21:38]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Describe that. What is an angel in the house?
- [21:40]
E.J. Dixon
Sort of like this warm. It's based on this poem by Coventry Patmore, who is this very flowery 19th century poet. So it's sort of this like Marmee March figure. I think if you've read Little Women is the ideal figure to compare it to. This very, like, self sacrificing, nurturing, maternal, warm, like bastion of warmth and hope and grace and understanding in a storm. Very much just like a symbol of returning to, like, the womb.
- [22:14]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
So the angel in the house was the OG Tradwife, essentially.
- [22:17]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah, I think that's a good way of summing it up.
- [22:19]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Yeah. So we're always stuck in this binary that kind of pops up in the Industrial Revolution of like worker home, worker home, worker home. Right. And like, it's angel in the house or a flapper. You know what I mean? Or it's girl boss or trad wife, but it's the same. Who does that narrative serve? And why is that story so sticky? Cause it's crazy to me that hundreds and hundreds of years later, the same two cultural archetypes, they're the same.
- [22:51]
E.J. Dixon
It's. Yeah, Madonna whore.
- [22:53]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Yeah, that must be. They're sticky. Why are they so sticky?
- [22:56]
E.J. Dixon
Well, it obviously serves the patriarchy just to keep women in buckets, because obviously men do not have to adhere to such a rigid binary.
- [23:04]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
I mean, there is no binary for men.
- [23:06]
E.J. Dixon
They can be anything that they want.
- [23:08]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Anything they want.
- [23:08]
E.J. Dixon
Right, Right.
- [23:09]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
There's no binary.
- [23:10]
E.J. Dixon
They're literally like Barbie. They can be an astronaut, they can be an attorney. But I do think that it is something that women have internalized to a large degree in part because I think it's just easier for our brains to sort of like, make sense of the world through binaries like that. People are very comforted by, like, reductionist narratives. It's very easy to see the world through that lens rather than acknowledge the complexities of life and the complexities of motherhood and the fact that you can be you know, a full person and a sexual person and a career oriented person and also have children.
- [23:46]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Even though that's the truth. Right? Because what's interesting is that's the reality. The reality is the middle. I don't even know anyone who lives in one of these binaries except who I see on Instagram. Like, I don't think that's real. But they divide us. Nothing gets my lefty friends more fired up than talking about trad wives. You know, nothing gets, you know, some of my Republican women more fired up than talking about, like, girl bosses.
- [24:09]
Reshma Sajani
Right?
- [24:10]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
It's like there's something that works right, in these archetypes, not necessarily for men, but for women in creating this dividend in this division.
- [24:19]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah, I think so. And I think it would be helpful for women to sort of acknowledge and understand that both of those tropes are harmful and helpful in their specific ways. You know, like, there's nuance involved, which.
- [24:34]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Is a. Oh, how are they helpful?
- [24:35]
Reshma Sajani
Tell me.
- [24:36]
E.J. Dixon
Well, it's a point I try to make in the book, you know, about, in my, in my chapter on Ballerina Farm and Hannah Nealman, like, this is a person who sells a lifestyle that is not appealing to me, that is not interesting or aspirational to me whatsoever that I think is actively dangerous to, you know, position as an ideal in a lot of ways. She has, like, what, I think she's pregnant with her 13th kid or something. Don't quote me on that. And you know, she did a beauty pageant right after she gave birth, and she gave birth without medication. I mean, everything about her, like, is the opposite of, like, what I want to see as the template for like, motherhood in our culture. But at the same time, this is a woman who has very cannily monetized this narrative that she's selling because she's selling it, you know, she's selling the idea that she's happy in this lifestyle and monetized her labor and also, like, raised in a Mormon household where she was not expected to do any of those things and thought, okay, how can I carve a space within my circumstances to create this career for myself and create this life for myself? And I think that's really inspiring, honestly. Like, I, I think that's really aspirational. Like, we're all products of our own given circumstances. And I use the example of Mormon mom fluencers in particular. But, you know, anybody given the limited circumstances that they have, is sort of able to carve a role for themselves.
- [25:57]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
That's a really, really interesting perspective. Because patriarchy does benefit women, and it's hard for us to acknowledge that. But there are, you know, some women, especially right now. Right. Look, think about how the job market is. It's so hard to find unemployment if you're a young person. Like, it actually might be the, the best way you put food on the table.
- [26:17]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah.
- [26:17]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
It's hard for us to accept that as like a reality. Right. That people, some people might be making a choice, saying, I actually rather do this. Right. Than do this.
- [26:27]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [26:28]
E.J. Dixon
I mean, there's no, what's the phrase? Like, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. Like, I mean, I very much feel that way. I think that demonizing women who sort of forge a role for themselves within that structure, you know, even if we disagree with or dispute like, their branding or a lot of the ways they do it, like, I don't think we should be so quick to demonize them because the reality is just very complex.
- [26:53]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
But we haven't been able to not demonize them.
- [26:55]
Reshma Sajani
Why?
- [26:56]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Because I think that's something we've really struggled with. I mean, I'm sure there's people listening to this being like, what the fuck? No, hell no. You know what I mean? She has no autonomy. I mean, I still always think about, you know, in the last election, that stupid ass ad.
- [27:08]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [27:09]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
That I think in many ways killed us with a lot of women, which was like, shh, don't tell your husband you voted for her. It was so patronizing because it assumes that these women have no autonomy over their choices. And they do. They're just choosing things that we don't agree with. And so it's much easier for us to infantilize them. Right. Than to accept the fact that, like, that might actually be a good choice for them.
- [27:33]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah. I mean, I, I have a lot of problems with the left as a leftist, and that's one of them, you know, like, exactly. Like the idea that we could talk down to women in red states to like, you know, married mothers and housewives and be like, you are being controlled. You are not capable of thinking for yourself. So why don't you vote for this candidate who we're shoving in front of you? You know, the idea that people that we would think that was a successful strategy is insane to me.
- [28:04]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Is wild. Yeah.
- [28:06]
E.J. Dixon
And it was the same as the discourse that I talk about in the book about that viral piece that came out about ballerina farm. People were so invested in reading into that piece that she was being controlled that, you know, oh, it justified their suspicions all along. That she has no autonomy, She's a slave. She's, like, captive to her husband. And there were elements in the piece that supported that, but also there were elements in the piece that, like, very much did not support that. That, like, very much made it clear that this is something she signed up for and is being, like, very canny about. And I think a lot of the subsequent outrage, like, the backlash to the backlash, so to speak, was precise. Like, precisely stemmed from that place. Like, women who were just like, you know, how can you say we're oppressed? How can you say we're marginalized? Like, don't talk. That's so patronizing. Don't talk down to us. We just made a different choice than you.
- [28:59]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [28:59]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
And I think the opposite of that you talk about in your book is Joan Crawford.
- [29:02]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [29:02]
E.J. Dixon
I guess I didn't really conceive of it as the opposite, but I guess she is sort of the opposite.
- [29:06]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
You spent an entire chapter talking about her, but she was the opposite.
- [29:08]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [29:08]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
She's a career woman, and at the end, it's like her demise is both her career and her child's destruction. Right. And, like, the warning is, like, to all you girl bosses out there, you know, it's not gonna end well.
- [29:20]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah, I mean, I think that was both the warning of some of her movies, specifically Mildred Pierce, where that's literally the plot of the movie. She becomes, like, a scrappy independent businesswoman, and she forges out on her own, and then she loses her daughter, and her other daughter becomes a slut and shoots her husband, and then she just goes back to being a housewife. Like, that's the literal ending of that movie. But it's also kind of the, you know, how her life ultimately ended and how her career ultimately ended. And I don't want to say, like, she didn't play a role in that because the alleged, you know, violent and abusive behavior is inexcusable. But this was a woman who, like, had spent decades sort of climbing herself out of the gutters to establish, like, a name for herself and a career for herself. And to say that she was something other than a housewife or a mother or somebody chained to a kitchen. And she did that successfully. Like, she really established the archetype for early 20th century independent woman in a way that we do not give her credit for. But because of Mommie Dearest, we remember her as a psycho mom. Like, that legacy is sort of destroyed. And if I could sort of sum up what I want, you know, the takeaway of the book, I Guess it would just be that, like, to not really think in those strict black or white binaries. Like, the reality for women is just so. And mothers is just so much more complex than culture tells us to conceive of them.
- [30:46]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Yeah. You write about, like, the role of mental health, you know, postpartum depression, and, like, you. You know, your own personal experiences. It's like, so many women. Because we live in a society that doesn't give us support, that doesn't give us help, that doesn't give us respect.
- [31:01]
Reshma Sajani
We're almost like we're like, one incident.
- [31:03]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Away from just losing it.
- [31:04]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah. And that was a point that I tried to make with the true crime moms as well.
- [31:08]
Reshma Sajani
Yes.
- [31:08]
E.J. Dixon
The Casey Anthony chapter. There was one interview that I did with a criminologist who's one of the, like, very few experts on matricide in the entire country. Because it's a subject that most people just don't want to touch. And with good reason. Right. Like, I wouldn't want to study it.
- [31:24]
Reshma Sajani
No.
- [31:25]
E.J. Dixon
But she went around interviewing women who had killed their children or were incarcerated for abusing their children in, like, various prisons. And she said that she had expected them all to, like, be terrible mothers and to hate their kids and to say that they were, you know, not guilty and stuff. But the one thing that they all said, they all came from, like, very chaotic backgrounds. They were impoverished. They, you know, almost always had backgrounds where they were victims of child sexual abuse or physical abuse. And they all were united by this desire to make parenting work. You know, they would tell her, like, in detail, like, here's how I reuse diapers because I couldn't afford diapers that day. Or, here's how I would take the last $2 of my paycheck and go to Walmart and, like, get money to feed my kids. They were all trying to be the best parents they could under the very, very, very trying circumstances they had. It's just that it wasn't enough. It's really important to acknowledge that, like, we tend to think that the gap between us and those women is so, so, so vast. But, like, if the circumstances were different economically or, you know, in our family or in our backgrounds, like, it really is not as vast as we think.
- [32:40]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Ah, it's so heartbreaking.
- [32:42]
Reshma Sajani
That chapter was really.
- [32:44]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
And the fact that, like, the people.
- [32:46]
Reshma Sajani
That are really watching all those true.
- [32:47]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Crime stories that are about mothers killing their kids are moms. And I think part of it is this kind of, like, recognition, like, oh, fuck, this could be me. And, oh, I'm a good mom. Cause I didn't kill my kid.
- [33:00]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah, it's definitely more the latter. I think on, like, a conscious level, it's like, oh, well, I let my kids have unlimited screen time, but at least I didn't lock them into a van and let them roll into a lake, you know? Like, it's definitely, like, this feeling of, like, superiority. But I do think that what you're saying, like, on a subconscious level, that is true. Like, I do think on a subconscious level, we do relate to a lot of these women, especially, you know, the women who suffer tragically, I think, from postpartum depression and harm their children. We do, on some level, relate to that, because we've all been in a situation where we just, like, felt like we couldn't handle it. You know, we felt like we couldn't take anymore. Whether or not that translated into actual, like, violence is dependent on, you know, circumstance, basically.
- [33:47]
Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [33:47]
E.J. Dixon
And, yeah, I think that's hard for us to acknowledge.
- [33:50]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
It's really hard for us to acknowledge. I want to talk about desire. I found your MILF chapter interesting. I just read the Ten Year Affair. I feel like everybody is reading this book or, you know, All Fours.
- [33:59]
Reshma Sajani
There's.
- [33:59]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
There's, like, we're living through this kind of genre of many mothers, my friends, people I know, really trying to understand their own sexuality, their own desires, and. And it's really kind of fascinating because culturally, we're kind of at this moment right, where on the right, you have this kind of, you know, make America hot again. Right. Movement. Lots of conversation of, like, the MAGA look and, you know, women, you know, that are in midlife, really, really trying to look younger, trying to look more sexual. You also have a very, I feel like, almost like Puritan culture that is like, creating this dichotomy of, like, you can either, like you said, either be sexually autonomous or be a wife or a mother.
- [34:39]
E.J. Dixon
Right.
- [34:40]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
But never both at the same time.
- [34:41]
E.J. Dixon
Right. Like, sort of that. The binary between Madonna and whore has never been so firmly circumscribed.
- [34:47]
Reshma Sajani
Thank you.
- [34:47]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
See, this is why you're a journalist.
- [34:49]
E.J. Dixon
Is that. That's what you're saying, though, right?
- [34:51]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [34:51]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah. Again, I think it's intentional. I think it's. It's a feature, not a bug. I think it's a product of Trump administration officials consciously.
- [35:01]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
But it seems as though we want Madonna to look like a whore, though.
- [35:04]
E.J. Dixon
Now it does sort of seem like there's kind of like a bifurcation, like a weird bipolar reasoning among certain men. On the right. Like, when I look at Twitter, it's like, you know, half of the men are, like, lambasting, onlyfans, whores. And half of the men are, like, lambasting, you know, Pierce Brosnan's wife because, you know, she gained weight after she gave birth and saying, this is why men shouldn't get married. So it feels like men are getting really mixed messages right now. Like, you should be marrying somebody who's incredibly sexually attractive and keeps it tight and is a good, you know, good arm candy, but also, like, you don't want her to be too attractive. You don't want her to be too sexual. You don't want her to be too tempting because, you know, otherwise, she's a like. And. And that's sort of like. I. I think that's been consistent.
- [35:56]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
That's not new.
- [35:57]
E.J. Dixon
I don't think it's new, but I definitely think it's more pronounced now. I think everything. All the misogyny that we're seeing is sort of been simmering under the surface for a while, and everybody's just saying it out loud.
- [36:06]
Lemonada Premium Announcer
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- [36:08]
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- [36:38]
Reshma Sajani
I want to talk about Maha moms.
- [36:40]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
You talk about something I also have experienced through the doc in talking to these mothers that it's often, I'll meet.
- [36:46]
Reshma Sajani
A mom and something happened with her.
- [36:48]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Kid, like, she didn't want to give them the vaccine. And then they have an episode, and it's changed their entire family's life. And nobody believes her. Nobody has empathy for her. Everyone thinks she's crazy, and so she finds solace on Facebook, you know what I mean? Or in these kind of.
- [37:06]
Reshma Sajani
Right. Corners of the Internet.
- [37:08]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
It always kind of stemmed from a medical experience where they felt that they were not seeing. Do you experience the same thing? Can we talk about that?
- [37:18]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah. My son is autistic. He was. He was actually pretty recently diagnosed. And, you know, he's been in the early intervention system, the special education system for quite some time. So when I was sort of, like, starting to figure out, like, well, what's going on here? You get taken down these sort of parenting rabbit holes. That are, like, uniformly populated by mothers like me. Mothers who care tremendously about their children, are terrified for their futures, have all of the, you know, panicking, have all of these really urgent questions. And there's sort of a parallel industry of people preying on them, you know, to sell misinformation. There's the anti vaxxers, there's the people who sell bleach enemas to cure autism, which is a thing that, you know, actually happens. It's really like a shadow industry in itself. So when I started reporting on the mahamams and when I started writing that chapter, the thing that I noticed was really missing from the discourse was empathy for women in those situations. Like, we're very quick to sort of label them as crazy, as crazy, or as like, purveyors of misinformation. And they are, they are purveyors of misinformation. But you have to understand, like, where they're coming from. And it's really not that difficult. You know, you just have to be a mother or a parent who has been in a position where they were concerned for their child 100%.
- [38:43]
Reshma Sajani
My son, Sigh, has horrible asthma.
- [38:45]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
We spent like the first few years of his life, like, in a hospital constantly and realized that, like, some of the medications he was taking was just creating incredible night terrors and had to read about in the fucking New York Times, you know what I mean? Even though, like, my doctor was like, no, it's fine. And so I totally get it.
- [39:02]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah, totally. And I think it's impossible to overemphasize just how much reason women have to not trust the medical establishment. Because the medical establishment doesn't trust us. I mean, they've done studies on this. Doctors are less likely to believe women when they report feeling pain, and they're particularly less likely to believe women of color. So, like, if you are operating within a system that inherently doesn't trust you and inherently talks down to you, of course you're going to be seeking alternative sources of information.
- [39:32]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Right? You know, there's this quiet tension in your writing between love and resentment. And I feel this way too. Like, there, you know, and it's.
- [39:42]
Reshma Sajani
We don't get to talk about this.
- [39:43]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Like, my. My favorite job is being a mother.
- [39:46]
Reshma Sajani
But I look at my children sometimes and I was like, my life would look different without you. I would make different choices.
- [39:52]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
I make different professional choices. Things that are very important to me. You know what I mean? Or the things that I desperately know when I'm 80 years old, will have regrets about because of this tension.
- [40:03]
Reshma Sajani
And I don't see my husband having the same tension, you know, and so how do we talk about these things in a way that doesn't feel like they cancel each other out or that I have to. No, no, I promise.
- [40:14]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
I really love them.
- [40:15]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah, it's tough because I think again, there's a tendency to sort of look at it as a binary. You know, you either are totally devoted to your children and you commit yourself entirely into them and you can't imagine your world without them, or you're like posting on the maternal regret subreddit, being like, I should never have had kids. I hate my kids. Like, I. I could have done so much more without. And the reality for most of us is somewhere in between. Correct. You know, is somewhere in between. And honestly, I think it's crazy that we don't openly acknowledge that or that women are penalized for not openly acknowledging that, because it just seems so obvious to me.
- [40:52]
Reshma Sajani
Do you think it goes back to.
- [40:53]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
What you wrote about in your book.
- [40:54]
Reshma Sajani
The history of like these puritan moms.
- [40:56]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
That were, you know, put in jail for like beating their kids?
- [40:59]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [40:59]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
There was like this.
- [41:00]
E.J. Dixon
Well, they weren't jailed for beating their kids. They could beat their kids all they wanted.
- [41:03]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [41:03]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
I'm sorry, but that's how. That, but that's how then the. In your book you talk about how like one of the first stories is like you had to. You reported it to like the Society for Animal Cruelty because there wasn't actually an institution that was there to protect children. But I guess what I'm saying is like, this is what it feels like we've over rotating the other way.
- [41:20]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah, definitely. I would attribute that primarily to sort of the rise of the parenting advice industry, which is something that I talk about a little bit in the book, and the development of attachment theory, which like at its core, as I write in the book is basically just like children have better outcomes if they are loved and protected by their mothers. But which various academics and you know, medical experts have sort of taken to the extreme to be like, you must baby wear your child. You must exclusively nurse for a year. You must co sleep. That's ultimately what I would attribute sort of the over course correction to, because as a culture definitely like we have over course corrected, like we are all up in our kids business and we are just consumed with guilt all the time about not living up to these standards and they're just totally, they're totally fabricated. Yeah.
- [42:10]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
One of my favorite lines in your book was like, you know, like this book is for the mom who gets drunk after her kid goes to bed and texts her friends gossiping about whether Ms. Rachel has a secret nipple piercing. I fucking love that line. What's my to dos now then? So like, if part of me feeling less isolated, more honest, more authentic, do I start making a ritual in a practice about like sharing with my friends when I have these feelings?
- [42:35]
E.J. Dixon
I would assume you do already. You seem like a pretty straightforward person.
- [42:38]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
I definitely do.
- [42:39]
Reshma Sajani
I'm talking about her ass because I.
- [42:41]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Don'T think everybody I know and it's.
- [42:42]
E.J. Dixon
Just wild to me. Like that was the biggest surprise of as I write in the book. Like the biggest surprise of all of this was when I told people I was writing a book about bad mothers. It immediately invited suspicion into my own mothering. And I was like, I don't understand, like this is such an omnipresent, like cultural subject. Like obviously as a mother and as a writer and as a thinking person who engages with the culture, like I would be interested in this. It's interesting, you know, like, why do you automatically like look at me with suspicion? And it's because of just how unbelievably fucking self policing we are and how guilty we feel a hundred percent of the time. And I guess if there's anything that I want people to take away from this book, I don't know if it's going to be successful at doing this. But just like stop, you know, like if there's one thing that I want people to take away from this book, it's you don't need to feel guilty about a lot of the shit that you feel guilty about because it is made to make you feel. It is made up in thin air, like out of thin air to make you feel guilty by people who have a vested interest in making you feel bad about yourself. That is what I want women to know. Yeah.
- [43:47]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Like when my husband's like hiding in the bathroom, you know what I mean? Because he's, you know, well, or if he's like, you know, at work dinner, right? And having that second drink and he doesn't feel guilty about not coming home for bedtime. That's par for the course of being a dad, right? That's nothing to look at. But for us it's a completely different thing. So it is really about like, like changing the cultural expectation. But I think that starts with us, right? And like you're not apologizing, I think. Yeah, exactly. I think that starts with us, right?
- [44:16]
E.J. Dixon
Yeah, unfortunately it does. As much as the labor, you know, typically falls on mothers. Yeah. It starts on us to be more permissive to ourselves and to just give less of a shit, honestly. Like, that's really how I feel like. And this is also because, you know, I parent a special needs child, so a lot of things that I, you know, would otherwise care very deeply about in parenting, like, other, you know, just kind of fades to the background and becomes inconsequential as a result, which has been. Has been a blessing, honestly, because it just makes you realize just how dumb everything is.
- [44:48]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
So do you think that there is something that, like, parents of special needs children can actually share with the rest of the world about parenting?
- [44:53]
Louis Dreyfus
That's different.
- [44:54]
E.J. Dixon
Yes, that's what I keep telling people. Like, it. It just. It makes you realize just how stupid and inconsequential the things that you freak out over are. You know, your child wasn't invited into the gifted and talented program. Okay. Your child isn't learning another language. Fine. Your. Your child. Is your child happy? Is your child healthy? Does your child feel comfortable in their home? Is your child comfortable with who they are? That's really the bar here to me. I do think that more people should view parenting that way.
- [45:28]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
All right. Amen. This is such a fucking good book. I hope everybody reads it. I loved it. It was almost like better than heated rivalry. You know what I mean? It was like. It was like.
- [45:36]
E.J. Dixon
It's high praise, and I refuse to believe that's true, but thank you.
- [45:39]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
It's actually true. I started watching season one of that or episode one of that, and I picked up your book, and I kind of liked your book better, so.
- [45:45]
E.J. Dixon
How. My book doesn't have gay porn.
- [45:47]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
I know, but I guess. I don't know. Everyone says you have to give it all the way to, like, episode five or something.
- [45:51]
E.J. Dixon
Oh, my God. Episode five is amazing. I'm so excited for it. Which episode are you on?
- [45:55]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
I'm still on one. I have to get over it. I told you. I started watching it, and I was like, oh, I like this. I picked up your book. I was like, I like this. You know what I mean? So now that I'm done with your book and I'll go back to it tonight, okay?
- [46:04]
E.J. Dixon
Same thing happened to me. Episode one is a slog. You just kind of have to get through it. Episode two, it picks up, and episode five, you will be destroyed.
- [46:11]
Reshma Sajani
Should I just.
- [46:12]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Can I go straight to episode five or I have to do.
- [46:14]
E.J. Dixon
No, no, no, no.
- [46:15]
Louis Dreyfus
You can't.
- [46:15]
E.J. Dixon
You can't, you can't. You can't. You have to promise me that. You have to promise and you'll see why. You'll see why. You have to promise me that you will watch it it straight through.
- [46:22]
Reshma Sajani
All right.
- [46:22]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
Well, I'm proud of you and I'm excited we got a chance to talk about your book.
- [46:25]
E.J. Dixon
Thank you. I'm. I'm proud of you for watching Heated Rivalry for starting Heated Rivalry. And thank you so much for having me on. I'm such an admirer of yours and I, I really appreciate it. It's great talking to you.
- [46:35]
Reshma Sajani
Great talking to you. Thank you so much to the incomparable E.J. dixon for this amazing conversation. You can grab her new book, One Bad Mother starting February 10th. Before we wrap, I want to invite you to join me in this work. As I mentioned at the top, I've been making a documentary about motherhood in America and it's finally premiering this spring. If this conversation resonated with you, if you've ever felt judged, isolated, or just gaslit by the story we tell mothers who in this country, I want you to join the film team. You can sign on as an associate producer and help bring this conversation to the screen. Head over to momsfirst us to learn more and add your name to the film credits. It takes less than five minutes. This film exists because of women who refuse to accept that this is just the way things are. I'd love for you to be one of them. Thank you so much for listening. See you next week. Before you go, thank you for listening to my so Called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content you can't hear anywhere else. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com my so called midlife is brought to you by mom's first come see what we're all about at momsverse us. I'm your host and executive producer, Reshma Sajani. Our senior producer is Katie Eckstek Cordova. Our producer is Beth Rowe and our sound engineer and editor is Mary Kelly of Sweater Weather. Our theme music was composed by Ivan Kurayev and performed by Ivan with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Scheduling support from Cindy Cook. Sales and distribution is by Lemonade Media. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know what you're doing in Midlife. Follow my so called Midlife. Wherever you get your podcasts or listen, ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership and be sure to follow me, rashmistajani and Moms first on Instagram, LinkedIn and Substack.
- [48:52]
Katie Eckstek Cordova
See you next week.
- [48:59]
Lemonada Premium Announcer
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- [49:33]
Gretchen Rubin
To make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.
- [49:51]
E.J. Dixon
That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer.
- [49:53]
Gretchen Rubin
And producer in Hollywood.
- [49:54]
Louis Dreyfus
Join us as we explore ideas and.
- [49:56]
Gretchen Rubin
Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from lemonada Media.