Reshma Sajani (3:16)

Esther. Ah, the day has finally arrived. My dream has come true. I'm so excited to have you on the show.

Esther Perel (3:21)

I remember when you asked me to come on your show as the first guest you had asked.

Reshma Sajani (3:27)

As I was thinking about it as.

Esther Perel (3:28)

A concep, was I positive?

Reshma Sajani (3:31)

Yeah, you were very positive. You said, this is something I'm seeing women struggling with and talking about. So I absolutely think you were positive and gave me a lot to think about back then too. So you are, you are literally, truly an inspiration for the show and I'm so grateful to have you.

Esther Perel (3:46)

It's a pleasure to be here.

Reshma Sajani (3:48)

I always like to ask everybody, like, what is your midlife mindset? So at this stage of your life, are you like, this is incredible, or are you feeling nostalgic for your youth?

Esther Perel (4:00)

Sometimes I say, if I had the confidence of today, with the looks of them.

Reshma Sajani (4:07)

Oh my God, that's brilliant.

Esther Perel (4:08)

Yeah, because I had youth, but I didn't have the confidence, I didn't have the experience. I was still concerned with how I come across, how people like me, am I smart enough, etc. At this moment, I have to say I have a very special midlife. I am well aware my career took a whole other turn, first when I wrote the books, but that was in my late 40s and then in my 50s when the podcast and the TED talk came out and so forth. So I feel like I'm in full effervescence and I'm actually very happy that it happened when it did. I think it's harder when it happens when you're young.

Reshma Sajani (4:49)

Actually, now you're bringing up something for me because I think when I asked you about this idea of my so called midlife, I said, well, what. What are you seeing? And you said, the thing I am seeing is that women have much more confidence to say and ask for what they want, you know, at this stage in their life. Why do you think that is?

Esther Perel (5:09)

Maturity, life, experience, different stages of life. There's a sentence from my. My colleague and friend Terry Real, that I often like. He said, self confidence is the ability to see yourself as a flawed individual and still hold yourself in high regard.

Reshma Sajani (5:26)

Wow. And not beat yourself up. Yep.

Esther Perel (5:28)

And not beat yourself up. So, you know, I had a conversation with one of my sons and he had a bad feedback about something and I said, how many nights have you been sleepless? You know, we were joking. I said, you know, it used to Be that I would be three weeks, you know, obsessing and ruminating. Now it's three hours. And then I move on because I've made enough mistakes. And I know that not every mistake is the end of my life and my career and all of these things. And I think it's. That's confidence. Confidence is not only that you know what you need or what you want or what you want to do. Confidence really is your ability to make mistakes, to see yourself as flawed. I like the word flawed. Imperfect. And continue to hold yourself in high regard, meaning you don't sink in a pool of shame or self pity or self recrimination. You just, you know, life goes on and you try. And if you've taken care of other people, if you've raised children, if you've helped your parents or your grandparents, you have plenty of experience of imperfection.

Reshma Sajani (6:32)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (6:33)

Not just your own imperfection, the imperfection of life. You know, I think confidence is also when you start to savor what is. And you're a little bit less busy constantly with how it could be better and different.

Reshma Sajani (6:49)

Yeah, because it's a different kind of definition of confidence. Because sometimes when I think about confidence, I think about swag. Right. Like you walk into a room and you just. You own it. You feel like you belong. But you're talking about confidence as wisdom. And I think that that is much more of an accurate description of, I think, how people feel in midlife. Because you've had all these experiences.

Esther Perel (7:12)

One of the ways people feel in midlife is it's now or never. You know, what do I still want to do? What would I feel like I completely missed out on or walked on the side of and never truly stepped into? And then what can I let go of? But, you know, there's a question I work with a lot in therapy, which I apply to our relational story, but I think it's. It can be broadened, is what are aspects of your relationship story that you want to hold onto, that you want to harness, that you want to develop further and keep. But what are aspects of your relationship story or stories that you want to let go of, that you want to relinquish, that you want to change? And I think that happens at many stages of our life. But there is a certain kind of urgency of time that sets in around midlife that makes that question even more poignant.

Reshma Sajani (8:08)

You're absolutely right, because the vast majority of divorces happen in midlife initiated by women. I think there's a huge change that happens in friendship in Midlife, you're ending friendships. Right. This is something, I think, that takes a lot of women, you know, like, it. It. It's like it's hard for them. Cause it feels harder to make friends, and then it makes it harder to leave friends. One of the things. So full disclosure, right? Esther, you're my very first couples counselor. Nahal and I started seeing you very early on in our marriage, and we're still married. So clearly it worked and you had a lasting impact. But one of the biggest things I remember in therapy session, learning from you is you would say, you know, it takes two people to create a dynamic, but one person to break it. And you had kind of early in our relationship, identified me as the one who was like, the most able to really change. And so. So I think for women in midlife or people in relationships, I think it's like identifying and figuring out, am I the one who can change this dynamic? Can this dynamic change?

Esther Perel (9:12)

But I think it's very important that we explain this, because I can instantly see people say, why me? And why is the burden on me?

Reshma Sajani (9:21)

And that was my reaction.

Esther Perel (9:23)

Exactly. Exactly. So I took a moment to explain it to you as well. So let's go first to the thing about. It's interesting. You say that the majority of divorces take place in midlife, because it usually is in the third year of marriage, which is when people have young kids and in midlife. So it's when there is addition and subtraction of family members, birth and departures. And that the fact that they are initiated by women, that is true and has been true historically and is true in various different economic contexts. The moment the women are less economically dependent on the men, the divorces are initiated and primarily by her. Under communism, 97% of divorces were initiated by women.

Reshma Sajani (10:07)

Wow.

Esther Perel (10:08)

And because everybody earned the same thing, there was no need to go and bring in a lawyer. And peace will basically put a wall in the middle of their apartment. And then they continue to live separately, but in the same house. What I'm referring to when I say this, two people make a pattern, One person can break it. I still really think so. But it is because a pattern is often interdependent parts of hostile dependence. Right. I'm pissed at you because I'm expecting for you to do something and you're not doing this thing. And because you're not doing this thing, I now need you even more because I am even more angry and more dependent. And the more dependent I am and the more I turn to you as Being the pivot who can actually release us from this dynamic. I need you to talk to my brother. I need you to talk to your parents. I need you to do something with the children. Whatever. The thing is, the more I depend on you, the less you do it. The less you do it, the more angry I am. The more angry I am, the more I blame you for it. And I depend on you. So. So how do you put yourself out of this? You take yourself out of it. If you make one change slowly, sooner or later the other person cannot continue do the same. But the important part is when you say you can do it is not because you are more responsible and you have more of a problem and it's more your issue. It's because I fundamentally think that you have the flexibility to do it. You have the malleability to change this thing in a way that your partner, who may appear the more conciliatory or appear the more harmonizing or appear the kinder one, is actually more rigid and more locked into the pattern. Is there a. That's the important thing to know. There's no gender.

Reshma Sajani (12:00)

There's no. Because you see it in couples. Sometimes it's the husband, sometimes it's the wife, right?

Esther Perel (12:05)

I see plenty of same sex couples. No, it's not a gender piece. It's who is protecting who. When you are the one who is continuously pointing at certain things that the parents on the other side is doing, right? And you are the one getting angry about it. It's really not your intention, but this is what will happen. Your partner will become the defender of the very people that he should be differentiating himself from. You become triangulated. You express the feelings that he is not expressing. He therefore doesn't have to express them. He can express the other side of his feelings, which will make you continuously more ang. Because you feel like he's defending the very people that you think he should be confronting. But why should he confront them? Since you're doing all the confrontation, you see who sits on top of who. It's a mechanical issue. What is the piece that I need to remove in order for the whole thing to begin to kind of move differently?

Reshma Sajani (13:02)

And I can control me if I don't react, right?

Esther Perel (13:05)

Absolutely. If you don't react, sooner or later he will need to do it. He will need to do it and he will need to find a way to hold inside of him his loving feelings and his more challenging feelings. Because right now you take care of a whole aspect of his internal life and he doesn't have to do anything, and you're burdened by it, and it doesn't belong to you. But you're being so kind. But he doesn't even know that you're being kind because you're being angry at him. So all he thinks is that you're sitting on his back.

Reshma Sajani (13:33)

I think it's a really important thing to remember. And I do think it's in this stage of life because of the wisdom, because of the knowledge, because of the fact that you've limited time to understand the patterns that you want to break out of and that you have control over them. I think if we could give every person at this stage of life that gift, I think the next 40 years of your life would be epic.

Esther Perel (13:56)

What is it that I can do to make things different? You're not in control of the whole pattern, but you're in control over your contribution to it, the part that you play. What is it that I can do? A question that I love asking, and that is a very interesting answer. As people get a little older, midlife really brings this because people have already had one relationship, two, three marriages or not. I mean, this is not their first rodeo. Knowing yourself as well as you do, what would you say makes it hard to live with you?

Reshma Sajani (14:27)

Are you asking me a question?

Esther Perel (14:28)

No. That's one of the questions you're welcome to answer.

Reshma Sajani (14:31)

Oh, my God.

Esther Perel (14:32)

I think this is a fantastic midlife question. It's a fantastic question all along. But midlife, you know, brings a lot of things together. And by now you have a sense, especially if you're in the realm of relationships, you've had a few. You kind of know that you're the constant factor. And if you're feeling this thing again, it's probably because it travels with you. It's not dependent on the other person. So people have a certain ability for self reflection. Where you say, knowing yourself as well as you know, what would you say makes it hard to live with you?

Reshma Sajani (15:06)

Yeah, I have a much more of a desire for self reflection. I have a spiritual coach now. Like, I'm wanting to go deeper and like I always say, like, crack myself open. I think one of the big reasons why I wanna talk to you about this that's been really on my mind is how lonely midlife can feel for women. You know, and we all hear this phrase like, it takes a village. But for a lot of women at this stage of life, the village is gone. Right? Half of us adults say that they feel lonely most of the time. One in ten women have no close friends at all. In our 40s and 50s, our social circles shrink.

Esther Perel (15:40)

One in four men.

Reshma Sajani (15:41)

One in four men. That's right.

Esther Perel (15:43)

So whatever is bad in the relational world, whatever is bad or challenging to women, is actually often worse for men. Yeah.

Reshma Sajani (15:53)

And that affects us because we have men in our lives, whether they're our fathers, whether they're our partners, whether they're people that we love or our sons. And so their loneliness, their lack of connection is critical for our connection as well. And I think that's something that I remind women all the time. So. And when I talk to women, Esther, at this stage, it's like when I talk to teachers, executives, like, I just hear this exhaustion, like we're so tired. And I hear grief, because I think it's that grief that makes us feel alone. So can you talk a little bit about what has happened to our sense of village? Because I know you spent a lot of time studying and talking about this. What skills have we lost as a culture?

Esther Perel (16:39)

Well, our culture in the West, United States, being part of the west is one thing. I think it's not our world culture. And I think inside the U.S. there's also multiple cultures. But there is a pull between two primary orientations, culturally speaking, around this. It's a question I ask many audiences. Actually, I can frame it like that. Where you raised for autonomy and self reliance, or were you raised for loyalty and interdependence? Where you raised more. So, I mean, you can be raised for autonomy not because it was in the program, but because there was abandonment and neglect and in availability. So by default you became that way. But the emphasis, was it around self reliance and self sustaining, or was it around interdependence and loyalty? That creates a completely different view of when I have a problem, what do I do? If you race for autonomy and self realized, when I have a problem, basically, the messaging goes, you have your own legs to stand on. Nobody can help you as well as you can help yourself. Just get it done. If it's loyalty and interdependence, your problem is my problem. Of course, I end up being much more involved, which in some cultures gets translated as intrusive rather than caring. That has to do with where people, cultures put the boundaries. And interdependence means I ask for help. The first thing I think about, like, first thing I think about when I have a question or a problem is, who can I ask? I don't think what, how can I handle this? What shall I do? I say, who can I ask? You know it's so ingrained in me that I live as part of a village, so to speak, of people I know and people that I don't yet know that someone is going to point me at. And I don't experience it as a weakness. I experience it as a resource, as an element of collective resilience. How do I tap into the social resources that are available? So this cultural difference really is at the core of how people will deal with intergenerational loyalty, intergenerational help. Who owes what to whom, when, who's responsible to whom for what. And especially since it's no longer just prescribed. You get older, you move into the children's house. Now it all gets decided. Is my relationship with my parents good enough to do this? Do I like you enough? Did I feel like you were a good enough parent to be obliged to do this for you? I mean, suddenly we are evaluating the relationship in order to determine our responsibility, rather than being part of a system that is one that says duty and obligation will determine your actions rather than personal satisfaction, fulfillment, and the quality of my feelings will determine my actions.

Reshma Sajani (19:35)

And do you think loneliness is a consequence of this? As an Indian woman, we take care of our families. We do not drop them off. You know what I mean? I could have the most complicated relationship, which I sometimes do with my family, but I still will be taking care of them till their dying days.

Esther Perel (19:50)

Because you have a code that says whatever you feel is not what makes the decision. It's whatever is right is what makes the decision. So where people less lonely in a context of duty and obligation, they are less alone. They may not be less lonely because they have people surrounding them, but that doesn't mean that they feel less lonely. I think when we say that women in midlife are less lonely, I would say that in the United States, what I observed is that people, women in particular, feel most lonely when they have their first children.

Reshma Sajani (20:24)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (20:25)

Instead of it becoming a time when other people come all around you and you are constantly supported by a village, it is actually a time when you.

Esther Perel (20:38)

Retreat in greater isolation. And I experienced this, really, when my book came out. This is the early 2000s. It's before social media. And I was doing my first. They were not podcasts. They were not called podcasts. But we were on Skype, you know, and I would talk with people who live not in cities but in the suburbs. And I would go then to do these book presentations. And everybody was talking to me about how having a kid suddenly takes you out of your circle. And I'M thinking, but this is the opposite of what we need. I mean, the nuclear system is not a healthy system. Then I began to think, how do we help women in these transitions? People are more alone in the most important life cycle transitions. And those have to do with when you have new people joining and other people leaving.

Reshma Sajani (21:29)

Can I tell how you helped me in this? Because if you remember, I started seeing you when Shawn was just born. I was building girls who code. I was still doing all my travel and on the plane and I was breastfeeding and I was about to lose my mind because I'm sitting in the Amtrak or the plane and I'm trying to breastfeed. And I'm mad at Nahal because he doesn't have to deal with this. And you literally looked at me and you said, breastfeed.

Reshma Sajani (21:57)

And it was such a. A small but an obvious thing. But I felt as a young mom, so judged by everybody else, which made me so isolated because I couldn't talk about it, that I didn't give myself the permission to do the things that I needed to do to feel.

Esther Perel (22:17)

I forgot this. I forgot this.

Reshma Sajani (22:18)

Yeah, it's not working for like you've done it for. And at that time, eight, nine months.

Esther Perel (22:23)

Yeah, I think that I would have said it differently if it was two months. But yes, at eight, nine months, you may still be feeding him, but you're not nurturing him.

Reshma Sajani (22:31)

That's what you were saying. And it's funny. And I wasn't feeding him. All the doctors were like, you're not producing enough. Because how could I? I was barely sleeping and I was traveling and I was working.

Esther Perel (22:40)

How old is he today?

Reshma Sajani (22:42)

My God, he's 10 now. So that was like. Like 10 years ago.

Esther Perel (22:45)

Wow.

Reshma Sajani (22:46)

Those are the moments where you're right. I felt very isolated when I just had kids. And now as I'm entering this new phase, you know, entering my 50s, of like and think my relationships are changing or I want them to change, and I don't know how.

Esther Perel (23:02)

I think that there's two ways I would address this. The first thing is the role of motherhood. You know, one of the most interesting transition that I've observed here is that motherhood used to be a noun, now it's a verb. Parent was a noun, now it's a verb. It's parenting. And it has really entered the capitalist model of everything is measured and judged on performance.

Reshma Sajani (23:27)

So true.

Esther Perel (23:27)

You know, what are your KPIs? And it's just. It's filled with judgment. And that judgment deprives women of their own two things. A, their confidence, their intuition. They're just their natural sense of how they want to do it, try the best way they can, and B, their ability to ask for help. Because if you ask for help, it means that you're not performing well on your own. So what's wrong with you? The whole system is really, I think, very harsh. More on women than on fathers. No doubt in this one. Certainly with young children, the fathers come in later, they get their share, you know, but they come in a little later.

Reshma Sajani (24:06)

Why did that happen? How did we move from a noun to a verb?

Esther Perel (24:09)

I think part of it has to do with identity politics. Part of it has to do with the fact that I will put this on United States now. It is the only western industrialized country that doesn't have a child leave policy. And so it's all individualized.

Reshma Sajani (24:24)

Right.

Esther Perel (24:25)

You know, it's not. If everybody takes their kids to the nursery at X amount of months or at a year old, then you're not spending your time polarizing between staying at home versus working, between nursing versus. I mean, everything gets ideally made ideological and polarized. And there is a right and there is a wrong, and these people judge the others, and these people have contempt for the others. And there's no. Not much of a conversation and a reality. You know, I cared for you. I saw what. What was happening, and I saw that. That in fact, the thing that mattered to you the most vis a vishon wasn't happening. And somebody needed to put their hand on your shoulder and say, it's. You've really done it. It's okay. You won't lose him or yourself or the vox populous, you know, the voice of the people. If you let go of this and you're angry at the world for being in a position which you, in fact, are putting yourself in, even though you feel that it is the pressure of society.

Reshma Sajani (25:29)

That's right.

Esther Perel (25:30)

And you can resist the pressure of society. You don't have to put yourself into that place. And your resentment will go because your resentment is also going to be part of mother's milk. You know, I need to do this.

Reshma Sajani (25:41)

Because I have to do this.

Esther Perel (25:41)

Right? But why do I have to do this? When. How long is this gonna last? And it's just like this whole thing that women, not you, would, you know, feel in those moments. And you want to say, you know, motherhood is so complex. There's so many layers to it, and it's a lifetime project. You know what I've realized at this stage for myself. Is that so? So long. You talk about children, you talk about little people, and then one day they are adults and they still are your children, but there is a complete different relationship that sets in. Then you talk about your friendships and the exhaustion. So there is the exhaustion, which is often the notion that only after I've taken care of everything and everybody can I think about myself. Because that's what a true committed mother, spouse, you know, daughter, et cetera does. And it's true that women often talk about being exhausted, but it's not unique to the women. I think that wherever there are systems where people are assisted by a whole group of people and don't just professionalize the help all the time, they are less exhausted. They are also less encouraged to go out and do things on their own. I mean, the, you know, cultural systems are intricate. If you want this, it comes with that. What we are trying to do is take the best of different systems and put it together. That's what we call the new village. I want the community, but I also want the ability to have my individuality. In your community, in India, in your village, whatever neighborhood it is, in the big city, basically, the village means that people know you better than you know yourself.

Reshma Sajani (27:26)

Absolutely.

Esther Perel (27:26)

That's how much they're into you.

Reshma Sajani (27:28)

And they regulate me and my behavior. There is no individual behavior.

Esther Perel (27:31)

That's right. That's right. I'm constantly looked from the outside in. But we want to be able to look ourselves from the inside out. We don't want to be dictated by what will be my reputation, what will people say? And it's not just my reputation, it's my kids reputation and their possibility of finding a good partner later on because it becomes a reflection on the whole family. Because nobody stands alone. It's a very intricate system. So exhaustion comes from separateness. Exhaustion comes from models where people have to do it all. And exhaustion comes from people who have often sacrificed something in their life because the majority of women work and mother at the same time. I mean, this is a privileged question. So those people who can make that choice need to justify it. They have to make sure that they are as good a mother as they would have been. An engineer, a lawyer, a nurse. It's the best way I can say it. It's like a business mentality that enters.

Reshma Sajani (28:35)

The domestic sphere when it comes to holiday gifting. I want to give things people truly love. Beautiful, timeless pieces they will wear for years. That is why I'm going with quints. They have something for everyone and Everything is premium quality at a price that finally makes sense. Designer level sweaters at everyday prices. Silk tops and skirts for dressing up, perfectly cut denim for daily wear and outerwear that actually keeps you warm. Every piece is made with premium materials from ethical, trusted factories and priced far below other luxury brands. My personal favorite is their Mongolian cashmere sweater. It feels incredible. Soft, structured and it never pills. It's the kind of quality I would expect from a $200 piece, not 50. I've been wearing mine nonstop and it's holding up so well through the season. And quints makes gifting easy in every category. Their home and travel pieces round out my list and take the guesswork out of holiday shopping. Fine Gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quince. Go to quince.commidlife for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, that is. Q u I n c e.com midlife hello, I'm Gretchen Rubin. And I'm Lori Gottlieb.

Esther Perel (29:43)

We're two friends, one a happiness researcher.

Reshma Sajani (29:46)

And the other a therapist, and we.

Esther Perel (29:48)

Are here to tackle the problems of.

Reshma Sajani (29:50)

Everyday life with all of you, from big issues to small. We'll share advice and fresh perspectives and we'll also highlight responses from you, our.

Esther Perel (29:57)

Listeners, to the questions we discuss.

Reshma Sajani (29:59)

Whether it's that pet peeve that's been bugging you for years, a tricky dilemma, or just something you've always wondered about. We'll talk it through the since you asked podcast from Lemonada media premieres on September 23rd. Wherever you get your podcast casts, you're absolutely right. If you look at satisfaction surveys, right. Of mothers, low income mothers are normally happier because as you said, right. It's like they have to put food on the table, they got to pay for the rent and they got to take care of their kid. Right. And they're more likely to rely on this village of people in their community, their grandparents, their. Their aunties. Right. Whereas I think women who are more privileged feel like it's an individual thing that I have to figure out by myself. So there's a lot more dissatisfaction.

Esther Perel (30:41)

You know, I happen to think, and I always have, how would I say this, children should be raised by their grandparents while the parents are doing all the work and the career and the building and the settling the, you know, the grandparents have already done this. They also do it with less anxiety. And there's plenty of cultures where that's the case. And therefore there is then the return to the grandparents. You will never be a grandparent Alone.

Reshma Sajani (31:07)

Right.

Esther Perel (31:07)

I think exhaustion comes from the structure of the family and then loneliness and new friends. It is one of the richest aspect of our lives at this moment. We live longer. We live long after the kids have left as well for those who have had children. And you get to redefine, you know, who am I today and who are the people who. With whom I can reflect that.

Reshma Sajani (31:31)

Yeah, I'm turning 50 in a week and a half and I'm going, taking my 25 girlfriends next week on a trip. And I've. No matter how busy I am. Right. I make time because I need those friendships. I was listening to your podcast, where should we begin? And there's a beautiful episode of the two Friends. Right.

Esther Perel (31:49)

The women.

Reshma Sajani (31:50)

The two Women. It was a great example of what's going on, I think in female friendships in my stage of life right now.

Esther Perel (31:57)

So where should we begin? Maybe I'll just quickly introduce. It is is my podcast for the last nine years. It's live one time therapy sessions that I do with couples that three hour long sessions edited to one hour for brevity and individual sessions as well. For the first years it was all primarily couples. Basically you're invited to listen in on the intimate conversations between two other people and the more intensely you listen to them and the more you will probably see yourself even if the situation has nothing to do with your own. I in the last few years decided that I had erred on the bias of always talking about intimacy and love and commitment in the context of romantic relationships. But in fact these are very important dimensions of friendships, of partnerships of co founders of creative pairs, et cetera. So in this case it's two girls who go to college together and develop with their roommates and they develop a very intense relationship with each other, almost a romantic relationship. I mean they are in love with each other, but it doesn't need to be defined that it is they're a couple or they're friends. I have another one with two men also who.

Reshma Sajani (33:14)

Oh, I gotta listen to that one.

Esther Perel (33:16)

Oh, it is, it is an incredible. Actually with an Indian and a Pakistani man.

Reshma Sajani (33:21)

I'm going to listen to that tonight.

Esther Perel (33:22)

Young men. It is one of my really beautiful sessions. And what happens here is they become very fused and it strengthens them to be parts of a whole until they begin to date. And when they start to date, one feels abandoned and one feels like she doesn't really know how to integrate the other person into her life. They live, they live in different cities. It's really a story of they grew together through their identification, even though they've always been quite different and acknowledged that. And now they are in the phase of how do you maintain the connection while at the same time differentiating? We are not one and the same. We will have different lives, we have different boyfriends, we have different careers. But can we still have that intense connection with each other? And they sit on the couch, legs crossed, looking at each other face to face in this beautiful way. And they. They dig in. It's very, very beautiful. I won't tell you all the details.

Reshma Sajani (34:24)

But everyone's gotta listen to it. It's so, and I think so many of us have experienced that, the drifting apart and the longing to be close again. Why do you think that friendships do get deprioritized? And what does that really cost us?

Esther Perel (34:40)

There's the friendship that gets deprioritized, but there is also the friendship that doesn't grow. So all relationships are living organisms. I will put it to you like that. And that means that they continuously have to straddle tradition and change. They have to deal with what is maintained and what they continue. This goes back to the original question I asked. And they also have to change and move and shift in order to remain alive. If you don't change, you fossilize and you die. If you constantly change, you become chaotic and you dysregulate. So you find this balance all the time. I have friends that I see when I go back to Belgium in childhood. And some of them, they're historical friends. They're friends of a period of my life, but they didn't continue with me. And then I have four girlfriends from grade A. If we met today, we would be friends again. It's that it's always been the criteria for me. And we have continued to accompany each other in our lives. Sometimes years go by and we don't, but we know each other for 60 years, you know?

Reshma Sajani (35:44)

So you keep the historical friends even though they don't grow with you.

Esther Perel (35:48)

These four women I kept because they grow with me. And we've come to see each other in our respective countries. We each live in a different country. That's very important. We have a good idea of what is the life of the other in her place. So it's not just what is told to us. We've been there, we've lived with it. By the way, for my 60th, I invited all these people of the six decades.

Reshma Sajani (36:12)

I'm doing something similar next week. And a lot of them don't know each other, but it's like they've all played this role. Such a beautiful gift to me.

Esther Perel (36:19)

So I'll tell you a ritual that Priya Parker did with me.

Reshma Sajani (36:22)

I'm bringing your card game.

Esther Perel (36:24)

Yes. For sure there'd be amazing stories told. But the ritual that Priya did is we were all standing in a big circle and Priya Parker, who wrote the Art of Gathering so that people know, and she basically asked those who know Esther between the ages of 0 and 10, step into the circle and just say your name and one sentence about who she is for you and your relationship with her. And then she went from 10 to 20 to 30, all the way to 60. And in the end everybody had been included in the circle. So everyone who doesn't know each other knows you and knows the other people of that same phase of your life.

Reshma Sajani (37:06)

That's beautiful.

Esther Perel (37:07)

It's an incredible sociogram to do, you know, as a ritual if you are inviting 25 friends for your birthday who don't really all know each other, so don't just bring them together. Create a real intentional ritual to mark that you're important in their life and they are important in your life. And you want to find a mechanism to say that out loud to everybody else. This person is important to me because this one sentence not a three day affair.

Reshma Sajani (37:38)

So as part of that, I love your cards. They're already my bag right here packed in it. But for those who haven't discovered them, and if you could give every listener just one card to start a conversation with a friend, which prompt would you choose and why?

Esther Perel (37:52)

I have used many. I don't think that there is one that stands out, but I'll tell you a few that I really like. And there's different ones. If it's on a date, if it's a group of girlfriends who are meeting for dinner, if it's a family gathering. So if it's about friends, a text message I fantasize receiving.

Esther Perel (38:13)

Or a text message I fantasize sending, a way that you've impacted my life, but you don't know. I like it in the general as well. A person who has impacted my life but doesn't know that's in the bigger frame. A risk I took that changed my life. I owe you a thank you for.

Reshma Sajani (38:30)

Oh, I like that. That's beautiful.

Esther Perel (38:32)

I owe you an apology for something, you know, that others never get to see. There's 250 of them. They're stories. I think the main piece is to say that each one of the prompt, a good prompt A good question invites a story, not an answer. A story is a bridge for connection. If you don't have an answer immediately, drop it, get another card type thing. Don't get stuck. But what's interesting is that friends often think they already know everything.

Reshma Sajani (39:02)

Yes. About you.

Esther Perel (39:03)

About you and knew about them. Partners too. And then when people sit around the table and do the game, they hear stories. And that is the moments that I love the most. You never told me this. I had no idea or I heard this way back when once, but I didn't remember at all that.

Reshma Sajani (39:22)

The other thing as you're talking, I just think at times in our relationships, we have to reestablish intimacy and, like, connection. And I think sometimes, even though I think I know everything about you, hearing you talk about how I taught you something, or I changed your life, or I'm holding a grudge and we never. You know what I mean? I never said it. I think it just established, like. I think it's like I have to do that in my marriage every so often too, to reestablish that sense of intimacy, you know. Another relationship I wanted to talk to you about were sibling relationships. All of us, our parents are getting, you know, older. We're getting to. I just took my father's 80th birthday to Italy, and it was just. My sister and I went together and I saw this stat somewhere that 20% of sibling relationships end after the death of a parent.

Esther Perel (40:13)

Yes.

Reshma Sajani (40:14)

Can you talk about that and why and what we can do? Like, I. I read that, and I'm like, okay, what do I need to do with my sister Keshma now to make sure that that doesn't happen to us?

Esther Perel (40:24)

It's also, what do your parents need to do? There's a system called Five Conversations for End of Life. It's Frank Ostasetsky, one of his books, but there's a number of them. And it's basically is you have a conversation that you have about material goods, the house, the couch, the picture book, the vinyl records, the lamp, the box from grandma, you know, do this all before you're gone and before you lose your marble. Talk about your ethical will. What we would like for you to remember a tradition that would matter a lot for us, that you keep. Be very clear about that, of course. Medical stuff, caretaking for the end of life. What have you provided for yourself if you have, what do you think you would want, etc. Have these conversations with your children. I think it makes a world of difference. I mean, it's something that Many families are reluctant to discuss, you know, one day we will die, but before that, because how you want to die says everything about how you want to live. And you want to have that conversation with your children. Why do families fracture? Because one child feels that the burden was on them to take care of everything. Just because they're the one that stayed in that town. Because the incompetent got much more money and much more support, and even the house or the flat or the bedroom, whatever was able to be given. Why? Because the incompetent was seen as the person who needs more help. The competence can manage for themselves. Now, the competents don't want to become incompetent, but they do envy the fact that the incompetent only have to be incompetent in order to get all that stuff. Whereas they have worked their whole life and done everything on their own. Because one of them basically at the last minute, went to the parent and got them to change their will and sign something that the other people had absolutely no idea about, because they feel that they're the one that have been cleaning up the whole home, while the others had excuses for why they couldn't come because they have children or because they have work or because they had a big meeting. And as if I don't have a life just because I didn't marry or I don't have my own children, and all these resentments begin to come up. And it's done on the basis of an inequity. It's done on the basis of a complete riff around duty and obligation and who to care more and who received more. And not just material, who received more attention, who ended up having the love of the parent. You know, you were never there, but you were adored forever. I was there every week. Whenever there was a crisis, I was the one showing up. And I could never get the approval that you had. You were the favorite. All of that stuff comes out in that moment with a vengeance.

Reshma Sajani (43:09)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (43:10)

Does that match what you've observed?

Reshma Sajani (43:11)

Yeah, I think that's right. And it's wild how common it is. And I also think as something you talk a lot about, we're living our generational trauma. So we saw that happen with our parents who no longer speak to their brothers and sisters because they had the fight over the will and who was taking care, you know what I mean? Of, you know, their parents when they were dying. So I think it's all also just generational trauma. That's what we see. So we replicate what we see. You Know you draw this distinction between blame and responsibility when we feel resentful in care roles. What is the first kind of responsible, first step towards repair?

Esther Perel (43:50)

I think the first thing is acknowledgement. You know, what people want first and foremost is an acknowledgement of their perspective on reality. Even if yours is different, even if you think you do plenty too. You want your partner or your child, your sibling wants to have the sense that you understand what they're going through. Acknowledgement, which involves listening and not being defensive and not competing and not undermining and not, you know, qualifying, etc. Yes, you do a lot. But it goes a long way to feel that whoever I'm having the issue with understands my reality and doesn't qualify it with a. But acknowledges. The second thing is acknowledges what they're not doing. So first it's acknowledging what you are. It's a quadrant. First I acknowledge what you are doing, then I acknowledge what I am not doing, even if I'm doing stuff too. I appreciate your quadrant, but I also see what you are telling me about me instead of saying, yeah, but I came last year. No, I didn't come on Monday when you called me and it was really important for me to show up at a doctor. I didn't come. And don't justify it by saying, but I came last year. It's just I didn't come. Own your thing. That's responsibility too. Then what I could do different.

Esther Perel (45:18)

And then what you could do different. That's the last one of the quadrant because what are we talking about? We're talking about how do you manage polarities? I do. You don't. I show up. You don't. I care. You don't. It's an either or. When you manage polarities, you don't manage it by going directly to the other side. You play the quadrant. It's diagonals. That is really the process of repair. I acknowledge, I own. I commit to doing something different. I express remorse if there is, I express guilt if there is, and I express care. Because what people often feel is I'm the only one who cares about this relationship and you don't give an F. You're right, because it feels that it's like when there is a betrayal you want to show to prove I care about this relationship as well, maybe different. I just did a beautiful episode this week with twin brothers on the podcast. Okay, Two twin brothers, identical twin. And one of them calls the other and the other anticipates, oh, what now? What do I have to do now? You know what Kind of caretaking do I need to get involved with? And he doesn't pick up the phone, or he picks up the phone and he's called, and then the other one says, what's up? You know, you don't seem to be very happy that I'm calling you. It's always me calling you. You never. The whole thing is right there. Yeah. At some point, the most important thing is for him to just say to his brother, I do care about us deeply. I just. I've become resentful of the way that I anticipate how much caretaking I'm going to have to do. And in effect, we don't play enough. You know, you call me in those moments, and do you ever think actually about me?

Reshma Sajani (47:13)

Yeah. It's transactional, but not intimate in some ways.

Esther Perel (47:16)

It's patient and doctor. It's that it's. One person has needs and one person has to help, has to deliver. That's how it's framed. I don't know that it's essentially that, but the repair starts by your assumption that because you call, you care and I don't call, therefore I don't care, which is typical in families, is not accurate. Yeah, I care deeply, but not like you.

Reshma Sajani (47:46)

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Esther Perel (47:58)

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Reshma Sajani (48:01)

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Esther Perel (48:05)

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Reshma Sajani (48:09)

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Reshma Sajani (48:18)

You know, Esther, I've been listening to your wisdom for 10 years, and every time you give advice about how to have what feels to me, this very intimate conversation, I just want to close my eyes because I imagine having it with, like, my father, my mother, and I'm like, I couldn't. Those words couldn't come out. I couldn't say that. How do you find the courage to have these conversations, especially in relationships where you just really never did, but, you know, you have to.

Esther Perel (48:48)

I remember in the pandemic, at one point, I was very, very worried. I thought my husband was gonna die. It just. I got gripped with this fear, and. And then one day he came back and he said, you know, I asked the people who work here to dig a hole in the garden, and I say, what for? He said, so that you can throw me in the hole when I'm gone. And I started laughing. I really. It, like, broke the spell. I was in the grip of angst. And he turned it into light. And I laughed and I said, but I do think this is a moment that we need to take advantage of, and we have to talk about the possibility of dying. And then I said to my children, I want us to have a conversation about end of life. I want us to have it now while everybody's breathing and walking fine. And it was very scary. And I asked a friend of mine to facilitate it for us because I thought I should get some help. I'm not, you know, I'm the mother here. And the first question she asked is, how would you like to die?

Esther Perel (49:56)

And we all looked at each other. We were all in different places. Pandemic. And I thought, this is it. You know, it's like we ask ourselves, what kind of place you want to live in? Which. Which trip do you want to take? You know, how do you want to die? And we had never asked each other that. And it's not like only the parents can die. The kids can die, too, at any moment. At any moment. So it is about, you know, I can't tell you that it's not difficult. That it's like, well, you cringe. I cringed. But I knew it's an important conversation to have. And once you've crossed that thing, it's a whole other story. I mean, there's a card in the game, you know, the closest I've ever come to the experience of death. But I tell you, it's much easier to do that one with friends than with your own parents, probably because there is a certain kind of a superstition that if you talk about death in the family, you're making it happen. Right.

Reshma Sajani (50:54)

And you're not. And all these feelings are kind of coming up that you just. You don't have the emotions to deal with. I want to talk about your incredible subsect as we close. It's so amazing to me that. And I can see it in your face, you get the amount of joy you get from talking to people about their relationships. And. And even though you've probably had thousands of conversations Right. In your life by now.

Esther Perel (51:18)

Yes.

Reshma Sajani (51:19)

You must still be doing this because you think that you're still learning something because you're also a total nerd. Right. And so you must be learning something about humanity still all the time. Right.

Esther Perel (51:30)

I mean, I'll tell you a very interesting example. You're asking about loneliness and all of that. And I think that it connects to the substack too. When I arrived to the United States, a lot of my learning about therapy and how to do therapy was about helping people to individuate and to separate. That was considered the normative developmental stage that you wanted to help them with, how to find out who they are, what matters to them. It was a very individualistic perspective in which you were there to learn about you.

Esther Perel (52:04)

We are totally on the other side now, or at least I am reclaiming the other side because I feel like, you know, if you look at 30 verbs, they all have the word self in front and it's self awareness, self fulfillment, self satisfaction, self confidence, self esteem, self care, self. It's like, where is society going when everybody becomes an expert on themselves?

Esther Perel (52:27)

So I thought, we need to recreate a village, but it's not the old village. Many of us have grown up in those old villages, and we don't want to go back to them. Actually, we wanted to leave them. But we do want something that is more apart and together at the same time. We want a form of community and especially intergenerationally. And I remain curious about relationships all the time, because if at that time I was about helping people to separate, now I'm about helping people to deal with their stranger danger, you know, with the how do they talk to foreigners? How do they talk? Or anybody.

Reshma Sajani (53:03)

How do they talk to their boyfriend who's like, they're texting, but they're not. Then they're two floors away from each other, but they're not able to, like, connect.

Esther Perel (53:10)

Half the couples are divorced, and all of the divorced people only communicate on text.

Reshma Sajani (53:15)

That's not surprising.

Esther Perel (53:17)

99% probably.

Reshma Sajani (53:19)

You know, Entre Neue is the name of your substack, right? And one of the things you talk about are these third spaces between home and work. Tell me more about that. And what could this, like, 21st century village look like? What are the rules? So, like, are the rules are like, no texting. You can only connect in person. Like, what are some of the ways that we can do this?

Esther Perel (53:42)

The ways that we can do this? From small to large, it goes from the book club to the meeting in the bakery shop in town, to the meeting in the bookstore, to the movie club online with people who have moved away from each other. But every month they just come together. They've all watched the film that they now discuss. They're about activities that you share, they're about political causes that you care about. They're about coming together around something that gives people purpose and pleasure. It functions around these two things and they're not opposed to each other. Pleasure can be perfectly purposeful and purpose can have pleasure in it. Entre nous. The reason the image worked for me so much is because it's at the same time between us. Right. It's what I'm telling you in private. It's what I'm confiding in you. It's the intimacy that we create, but it's also the space that exists between us. So it's the space in between and the intimacy that fills it. And this autonomy and togetherness, connection and independence, freedom and commitment. These dualities are at the core of all relationships. They're at the core of our two fundamental sets of human needs, period. And I don't think that changes. What changes is the focus. You know, for so many years, we taught people not to talk to strangers. Now we are just urging them to talk to strangers because nobody talks to anybody. It's like the reverse. People used to want more space and more self expression because they lived in a system of duty and obligation. Now they want more certainty, they want less self doubt, and they want to feel like they can still be exploring because they need to connect. So we have spent too long helping people disconnect, and now we are helping people reconnect. That's repair.

Reshma Sajani (55:31)

So, final question, for everyone who's listening, who feels that disconnection or unseen, where should they begin?

Esther Perel (55:38)

The substack is the new hub. It is a publication, it is a resource hub. It is a place where you listen to the podcast, where should we begin? The live sessions, but also all the backstage. Because people have been asking me all along, what's you thinking about this session? How did you get there? Why did you do that? Have you met them again and all of that? I just had a couple this week that I saw two and a half years ago just as they fled Ukraine. And he stayed in Ukraine with one son and she was in France with her other son. And two and a half years later, they reunited for the first time and I just saw them again for a second session. So I know that people have wanted to know what has happened to this couple. And I met with them again and it's a place where people can come and ask me direct questions. So substack with the podcast, the newsletter has moved onto substack. It is a village. It's a place where people come to discuss with me and around me.

Reshma Sajani (56:35)

Yeah, well, Esther, you are one of the most brilliant women I have ever met. In my life. And I do not say that lightly. And it's absolutely true. So I think to give everybody the gift of being able to get that wisdom on a constant basis. I'm all signed up. So thank you so much and thank you for this conversation. It was so. We got through so much and it was so enormously helpful.

Esther Perel (56:55)

Helpful. So thank you. It was also granular.

Reshma Sajani (56:58)

You're very granular.

Esther Perel (56:59)

I think once you have an example, you can really show how. How does this play out, you know? Yeah.

Reshma Sajani (57:06)

Because people are like, how? How can I do this? Tell me how. And I think especially when you're 50, I'm like, no, given. I don't got a lot of time. Let me get to it. Tell me how to do it.

Esther Perel (57:16)

Your 25 girlfriends are all from the U.S. they all live in the U.S. around you.

Reshma Sajani (57:21)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (57:22)

Different ages, too.

Reshma Sajani (57:23)

Maybe everyone's between like 35 and 50. Yeah.

Esther Perel (57:27)

It's gonna be fantastic. So I think that what has really changed for me is when I started to have friends who are 35 and 40, and I'm 67, and that has changed my life.

Reshma Sajani (57:41)

So you're always saying, make. This is another good piece of advice, everybody. So have people in your friendship circle that are at least 20 years younger than you or 15 years younger than.

Esther Perel (57:49)

You, younger and older and older and both. I think that my life has completely changed once it became intergenerational. I have friends who are having babies and I have friends who are having grandchildren as babies.

Reshma Sajani (58:02)

Can I ask you a weird question, though? How do you make it a friendship and not be their mom or their big sister? Right. Or is that okay?

Esther Perel (58:10)

That's a great, great question. Sometimes I have a bit of maternal feeling, but I also go dancing with these people.

Reshma Sajani (58:19)

I know.

Esther Perel (58:20)

I've seen you there, to the theater with these people. I traveled last year with a group of friends. We were 12amongst us, we had people from age 7 to 77, and none of them family. But the people who had young kids had vacation for the first time in their life because there were seven other adults around them at all times so they could actually take a swim. And the people who wanted to go hike but don't always find everything on the map and had a whole bunch of tech savvy young people who like within a minute said, we go here, we're driving there. Nothing was too complicated. It was two weeks.

Reshma Sajani (58:57)

Wow.

Esther Perel (58:58)

Two weeks in Corsica. It was unbelievable. Everybody came back from there transformed. Like people understood. When it's a great group of people that you like. There were Children from the age of 4 to 12. That's the intergenerational piece here. I'm now trying to look for a way to live like this for my next phase of life where we are with people, with young babies.

Reshma Sajani (59:21)

Well, there are these great communes that are starting. I know there's one in Boston that a friend of a friend is like at, so.

Esther Perel (59:27)

So we're working on one here. But commune brings back the 60s.

Reshma Sajani (59:31)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (59:32)

This is a co housing, co living, community situation in which the older people are going to, at some point, need somebody to carry their groceries and be a nurse potentially. And the younger people are dying to have.

Reshma Sajani (59:44)

I want to go on a date night and be like, can I just drop off my kid for like 2 hours? I go out.

Esther Perel (59:49)

That's right. Or pick up my kid and take them for an ice cream. When I had young children in New York, I craved this.

Reshma Sajani (59:55)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (59:56)

An older person.

Reshma Sajani (59:57)

I crave this right now.

Esther Perel (59:58)

And I said, where are they? I know they're around and they have children in other states, but how do I find them? And now I think we can make that happen.

Reshma Sajani (60:06)

I also think, like you said, it's like teaching people to ask for help because it's like not a thing. I often think about that. I wouldn't. I wouldn't even call my best friend right now and say, hey, can you come over and watch the kids while I go run out to this? I don't want to bother them. So it's like getting over that is so important.

Esther Perel (60:22)

I think it's one of the most important things to do. I remember the first time I began to be a therapist who sometimes tells people, have you considered this? Because I'm thinking, you know, understanding the issue isn't going to solve it if we don't do something new. And this person was living in Stuyvesant Town and they said, I can't afford a hundred dollars to go to a movie. I said, of course not, and it's a bad movie on top of it. You will really be annoyed. But go and knock at the person on the floor that you know has also kids and just say, bring your kids over to me on Tuesday. I'll watch it. So you guys can go out and do whatever and then, you know, I'll go. And the notion in America that you first ask for your friends, and if you don't have anybody, then you go for the paid solution versus you first go for the paid solution. You professionalize any help you need, and if no one is available, then you may burden and impose on a friend. That is the twisted thing here. So true. That is really producing more loneliness as well. It's one of the many things, but I think it's a real issue. I've taught so many people to ask for help. It means you're resourceful, not it means you're weak and you can't do it.

Reshma Sajani (61:37)

I love it and I've been starting to do this practice of like asking the neighbor, asking the friend. But thank you so much Sarah. This was wonderful, wonderful conversation. I'm so excited about your substack a new adventure.

Esther Perel (61:48)

But yes, join me.

Reshma Sajani (61:59)

I always leave conversations with Esther feeling a little braver and a little more connected and a whole lot smarter. I hope you did too. Follow Esther Perel's podcast Where Should We Begin on YouTube, Apple Podcasts or Spotify? And subscribe to Entre New New with Esther Perel on Subsac for exclusive bonus content before you go. Thank you for listening to My so Called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content you can't hear anywhere else. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts. Or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com my so called Midlife is brought to you by Moms First. Come see what we're all about at momsfirst Us. I'm your host and executive producer, Reshma Sajani. Our senior producer is Katie Eckstek Cordova. Our producer is Beth Rowe, and our sound engineer and editor is Mary Kelly of Sweater Weather. Our theme music was composed by Ivan Kurayev and performed by Ivan with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Scheduling support from Cindy Cook. Sales and distribution is by Lemonada Media. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review, and let us know what you're doing in Midlife. Follow My so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. And be sure to follow me rashmistajani and moms first on Instagram, LinkedIn, and substack. Thanks and we'll be back next week.

Reshma Sajani (63:39)

Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts, and hit subscribe Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium.

Esther Perel (64:12)

Are you looking for ways to make.

Reshma Sajani (64:13)

Your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling.

Esther Perel (64:19)

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Reshma Sajani (64:21)

Fresh insights and practical solutions in the.

Esther Perel (64:24)

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Reshma Sajani (64:28)

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Esther Perel (64:33)

And producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from lemonada Media.