Revisit: How to Stop Giving a Fuck with Bozoma Saint John

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Revisit: How to Stop Giving a Fuck with Bozoma Saint John

Podcast: My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
Host: Reshma Saujani (Lemonada Media)
Guest: Bozoma Saint John
Air Date: December 31, 2025

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Main Theme

This episode explores personal reinvention, finding one’s power in midlife, and learning to live authentically by “plucking” rather than rushing through life. Host Reshma Saujani is joined by powerhouse executive and author Bozoma “Bose” Saint John, who shares candid lessons from grief, career pivots, and bold decisions such as leaving corporate America, founding her own haircare brand, and joining the cast of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. The episode is a frank, empowering conversation on letting go of societal expectations and living urgently, on your own terms.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Reality of Midlife

• Time Anxiety:

  • Reshma admits to feeling panicked by the term “midlife,” describing it as a ticking clock running backwards (01:42).
  • She notes: “It's almost like this time clock pops up that's moving backwards and I get this panic of like I’m running out of time.” (01:46)

• Midlife Dichotomies:

  • Some people relish getting older, while others yearn for their 20s. Bose shares that each decade brought something meaningful and she feels "totally in my power" approaching 50 (04:44).
  • “Every decade has felt like its own sort of moment.” — Bozoma (04:44)

2. Stepping into Power & Finding Control

• Shift from Ambition to Control:

  • Bozoma says she once equated power with “racing faster than everybody,” but now finds power in balance and control (05:40–07:44).
  • She uses a fitness analogy: rushing through reps gets them done, but with “wobble”; slowing down with control is better and more rewarding (06:37–07:44).

• Living with Presence:

  • Reshma struggles with being present (“I’m just trying to rush through the next thing...and then I'm never present.”) (07:44)
  • Bose connects increased presence and intentionality to aging and wisdom.

3. Living in the Moment & Rejecting Five-Year Plans

• Immigrant Upbringing and Independence:

  • Both discuss navigating family expectations, especially as children of immigrants.
  • Bozoma recalls telling her Ghanaian father she would move in with her white boyfriend, defying family norms with conviction (08:27–09:04).

• On “Hacks” and Planning:

  • Bozoma rejects strict five-year plans: “What if God has something different for you?” (09:04–10:43)
  • “The dreams that I dreamt in my twenties, I am far surpassing them right now in my own life. I am in awe of where I am.” (10:26)

4. Reinterpreting “Carpe Diem” and The Urgent Life

• Pluck the Day vs. Seize the Day:

  • Bozoma explains the true Latin meaning: “carpe diem” should translate as “pluck the day”—a more intentional, careful taking, rather than snatching everything impulsively (11:01–12:16).

    “Carpe diem actually means pluck the day. It’s a more intentional taking... Pluck the day. Trusting as little as possible in the next one.” —Bozoma (11:01)

• Living Urgently, Not Fast:

  • Her memoir, The Urgent Life, stems from personal tragedy and loss, and a resolve not to take life for granted (12:21–14:34).

    “I want people to look at my life and say, God damn it, she lived...she did everything in her moment. And that, for me, will feel fulfilling. That is why I choose to live an urgent life, not a fast life.” —Bozoma (13:18)

5. A Candid Relationship with Grief and God

• Bozoma describes talking honestly and even angrily with God during tragic moments, including her husband’s funeral (14:36–16:38)

  “I have honest conversations with God...I was sitting in that front pew at Peter’s funeral and having an argument with God while sitting there...” —Bozoma (15:07)

• Despite grief feeling unfair, her reaction is to focus on living as intentionally and joyfully as possible.

6. Returning to Love After Loss

• When her estranged husband Peter was diagnosed with terminal cancer, Bozoma agreed to reunite with him not just for herself, but to give him peace at the end of his life (16:38–18:31).

  “What I saw in him was that...in order for him to go peacefully, he needed to have tied up all of the loose ends, the things he regretted. And I don’t think I would ever forgive myself if I denied him that. And I loved him enough to give him that.” —Bozoma (18:17)

7. Reinvention After Corporate America

• Leaving Netflix & the C-Suite:

  • Bose boldly left her career as a high-powered executive, embracing the unknown instead of repeating the corporate grind (21:49–22:14).

• On Giving Up and Gaining Freedom:

  • Early on at Pepsi, she realized the system wouldn’t promote her fairly, so she “gave up” trying to fit in. Instead, she came to work dressed in her true style and attitude—ironically, that’s when she started to thrive (22:30–24:12).

    “I’m not fitting into the mold. I’m never going to become the CMO of the company. So you know what? Screw it...And when I’m sitting in the meeting, I’m going to say whatever the hell I want to say, because none of y’all are going to promote me anyway. Then all of a sudden, people start paying attention to me...” —Bozoma (23:42)

• Midlife Call to Action:

  • “I’m the one who’s standing on the other side of the large crevice...who’s telling you, sis — jump.” (25:23–25:30)

8. Founding Her Haircare Brand, Eve

• Inspired by the lack of products for Black women and frustration after a career of not being accepted as she was, Bozoma launched a haircare line named Eve, honoring both her late daughter and "the Eve of all of us" (26:02–27:04).

• She traveled to China to confront manufacturers about product standards, discovering that Black women were never considered in design or production (31:40–33:11).

  “When I asked things like...‘Why is it that the texture that you’re selling doesn’t match African American or African hair?’...‘Oh, nobody asked us to.’” —Bozoma (32:18–33:11)

9. Breaking the Mold on Reality TV (Real Housewives of Beverly Hills)

• Bozoma joined the Real Housewives with full self-possession, refusing to conform (34:33–36:18).

  “There have been way too much feedback of, like, ‘Oh, Bose, you can’t do that, you can’t do this...’ And I’m like, well, why can’t I?...I could do whatever the hell I wanna do. Who’s gonna stop me?” —Bozoma (35:17)

• She’s committed to elevating the narrative and representing a different kind of drama—from lived experience, not TV tantrums:

  “You think building a company is just a cakewalk. It’s not. There’s lots of conflict in there. And...I don’t have to resort to name-calling and pointing fingers ... to be interesting on television.” (36:28–38:02) “Same person, same outfits. I’m showing up in the same way. And my hope is that by doing that, I am still representing...for the corporate girlies who are doing it their own way.” (38:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Highlight | |-----------|--------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:40 | Bozoma St. John | “I am more in control of who I am.” | | 07:08 | Bozoma St. John | “Control...you might have to slow down a little bit, but the rep is gonna be better.” | | 11:01 | Bozoma St. John | “Carpe diem actually means pluck the day. It’s a more intentional taking.” | | 13:18 | Bozoma St. John | “I want people to look at my life and say, God damn it, she lived.” | | 14:36 | Reshma Saujani | “You know, I always say God never gives you what you can’t handle.” | | 15:07 | Bozoma St. John | “I was sitting in that front pew at Peter’s funeral and having an argument with God...”| | 23:42 | Bozoma St. John | “I’m not fitting into the mold...And when I’m sitting in the meeting, I’m going to say whatever the hell I want to say, because none of y’all are going to promote me anyway.” | | 25:30 | Reshma Saujani | “Jump.” | | 32:18 | Bozoma St. John | “Why is it that the texture...doesn’t match African American or African hair? ... ‘Oh, nobody asked us to.’” | | 35:17 | Bozoma St. John | “I could do whatever the hell I wanna do. Who’s gonna stop me?” | | 38:10 | Bozoma St. John | “Same person, same outfits...if I can do that, if I can be that, and it will be okay and likable, then...I think we can change actually the way that this industry sees us”|

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 01:42 – Reshma introduces midlife anxiety and Bozoma
• 04:44 – Bozoma on loving every decade and stepping into power
• 07:08 – Bozoma’s workout/balance analogy and the shift from speed to control
• 09:04–10:43 – On family expectation, risk, and refusing five-year plans
• 11:01 – Carpe diem / “pluck the day” discussion
• 12:21 – How grief shaped Bose’s sense of urgency
• 14:36 – Candid talk about loss, God, and unfairness
• 16:38–18:31 – Reconciling with Peter for his peace
• 21:49 – Why Bozoma left corporate America; confidence after “giving up”
• 23:42–24:12 – Giving up the corporate mold and finding freedom
• 25:30 – The “jump” moment, calling other women to leap
• 26:02 – Founding Eve, her haircare company
• 32:18–33:11 – Shocking lack of inclusion in the hair industry
• 34:33 – Joining Real Housewives, unapologetically
• 36:28–38:10 – Redefining reality TV and representation

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Final Reflections

The episode closes on a hopeful, motivating note: Bose’s journey encourages listeners—especially women navigating midlife—to shed old expectations, embrace urgency (intentionally, not frantically), and unapologetically build the lives and careers they want. Her story models how resilience, presence, and a little bit of “fuck it” can lead to fulfillment and leadership.

Recommended Follow Ups:

• The Urgent Life by Bozoma Saint John
• Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, featuring Bose

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Transcript

[Podcast Narrators/Hosts (Various Lemonada Media Hosts)]

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[Reshma Saujani]

Lemonada. Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. So I've been thinking a lot about this word midlife and you know what? It freaks me out. The minute I think about midlife, it's almost like this time clock pops up that's moving backwards and I get this panic of like I'm running out of time. I know that that's irrational, but I don't think I'm alone in feeling that way. And that's why I love our guest today, my friend Bizoma St. John. She's the newest cast member of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. But I knew her way back when she was one of our board members for Girls who Code and we just hit it off. She has had this incredible impressive career in corporate America. She's worked everywhere. I'm talking Netflix, Uber, Apple, Pepsi. But one day she woke up and she said fuck it and she retired. Part of that decision was because she didn't wanna Live by their rules anymore. She'd experienced so much loss already in her life that she had decided she was never gonna take a single day for granted. She lost her first daughter after a tough pregnancy. And her husband, her love, died of cancer. That's a lot of grief for one person to live through in one lifetime. But Bose is not only working through it, she's talking about it. She wrote an incredible book, the Urgent Life. She started a wig and hair care business named after her late daughter, Eve. Bose is here to share her wisdom with us. And I have learned so much from her about how to just say fuck it and live in the moment every single day. So let's get into it. I miss you. How are you? You better not come to the city again without seeing me.

[Bizoma St. John]

I know, right? Let me tell you.

[Reshma Saujani]

How's Lael?

[Bizoma St. John]

Lael is great.

[Reshma Saujani]

What grade is she in now?

[Bizoma St. John]

She is in 10th grade.

[Reshma Saujani]

Is she coding?

[Bizoma St. John]

No, she's not.

[Reshma Saujani]

You gotta set her to Auntie Reshma.

[Bizoma St. John]

I know. Exactly. You're right. You're right. I do need to. I do need to. No, but she's really good. She's a sports girly who loves makeup.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's amazing, right? It's like you're supposed to be. What? You're supposed to either be sporty and not like, makeup or getting ready, or you could, like. It's one or the other, and I love it. It's like multidimensional. And that's how women are young girls are.

[Bizoma St. John]

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

All right, let's get started. So, you know, we talk on the show a lot about midlife and there are people come in and are like, yeah, this is like the best time of my life. Like, every year I get older, it just gets better. And then there's some people, like, I just want to go back to my 20s. Where are you at in this debate?

[Bizoma St. John]

Gosh, I'm having a really good time right now in this midlife, you know? Like, I feel totally in my power. And this is. I don't know. It's hard for me to say this out loud because I feel like it might sound unrealistic, but I have. I have felt in my power for a long time. I know that there isn't a decade where I'm like, oh, man, I wish I had done this differently. Like, I really loved my teens even. I really loved my 20s. I really loved my 30s. I'm loving my 40s, and I'm coming to the end of my 40s. Here pretty soon. And I'm just like, shit, watch out when I'm 50, y'. All. I mean, woo wee. You know, so I'm. But every decade has felt like its own sort of moment.

[Reshma Saujani]

Do you think you're getting more powerful?

[Bizoma St. John]

Yes, 100%.

[Reshma Saujani]

So what's the hack on that?

[Bizoma St. John]

I think part of it is my complete and utter acceptance of who I am, right? That every decade I have felt good in it, but good for different reasons. And I think even the last decade, in my 30s, it was just ambition, ambition, ambition. I was eating everything up. It was just power because I was racing faster than everybody. And right now I feel more powerful because although I'm not racing as hard as I was in my 30s, I am more in control of who I am. You know, this is gonna be an interesting analogy. I work out a lot, right? And a lot of what I am doing now is a lot of balance. You know, as you get older, you need to work more on your balance as you use weights, you know? And my trainer, who I fight with every.

[Reshma Saujani]

Because you want him to make you do less or more.

[Bizoma St. John]

Less. I'm literally like, jerry, stop it. Like, this is too much. But one thing he always says to me, which I try to remember in my personal life or in my work life, is he says control, you know, because like when you are holding big weight and you're trying to balance on one leg or anything, it's. You are trying to rush through the movement just so you can get it done, rush through the reps, you know, okay, you gotta get eight done. So you're like, boom, boom, boom, boom. And what is happening.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's totally me.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yeah. Is that you're wobbling, you're getting it done now you're getting the reps done, but you're wobbling. And what he always says is control. Like, so it means that you might have to slow down a little bit, but the rep is gonna be better for you because you are in control of the weight and in control of your body. And so now I feel more of that control where it's like, I was racing in my 30s and just getting it, getting it, getting some of it was a little wobbly, but I was, I was getting it, so I still got it done, no problem. But now I'm in control.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's beautiful. That's beautiful, Buzz. Because when you're in control, it means you can also enjoy. Like, I still feel like I'm in that place in my life where I'm just trying to rush through the Next thing through the next thing through the next thing. And then I'm never present. And especially, you know, when you have kids, you actually have to figure out how you can be present because you'll miss everything. And that wisdom and age is supposed to give you more presence and, I guess, more control. I think that it's powerful. You know, it's funny. As you were talking, I was thinking about a scene in your book. So when you fall in love with Peter, you know, you're from one culture, he's from another. And thinking about the scene when you call your father and you basically say, we're moving in together.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

And he basically is like, click. You know what I mean? And he's at Peter's office.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

But I was thinking, as you were saying. Cause I think sometimes we don't feel in control of our lives, especially when we're children of immigrants. Because you got two masters, you got yourself, and you got your parents. But you always had a lot of, I guess, confidence in your own decisions and your choices. That you were even able to stand up to immigrant parents, which is hard.

[Bizoma St. John]

Hard. Very hard. Very, very, very hard. Yeah. But I think it's also because I have felt very convicted for a long time about, you know, where I'm supposed to go, what I'm supposed to be doing now. I like the word you used, hack. You know, it's like, what's the hack to that? And the thing is that it's not always that. Like, okay, I know where the road is going or where I'm gonna end up, Right. In that moment when I was telling my father that I'd fallen in love with this white man and that I was gonna move in with him. And he was like, absolutely not. You know, it wasn't that I knew that, you know, this is gonna work out. I knew I wanted to marry Peter. If you had asked me then, is this going to be forever? I probably would have been honest and said, I don't know. But I know what I want right now. And nothing is going to stop me from getting this right now. And so that is the consistent way that I have been throughout my life, which is that it is actually very difficult for me to think about five years from now. I don't like thinking about that, Reshma. Like, I really don't. What if God has something different for you? What if you're not supposed to get to the place where you think you're supposed to go? Because one thing I can guarantee you is that the dreams that I dreamt in my twenties, I am far surpassing them right now in my own life, I am in awe of where I am. And so if I was to consider what is going to happen five years from now and make plans to get there, I might fall short of what is supposed to be mine.

[Reshma Saujani]

Or you may not take a risk. The hack is like live in the moment, figure out what you really want to do right now. And it doesn't have to be the five year plan. And I think, but, and I think that's very. Is opposite of what we tell people, especially women. Right? What's the long term plan? What's the five year plan? What are you driving towards?

[Bizoma St. John]

Yes, yes, yes. And it's so funny because I have often these days come back to a saying that, you know, I just think it's so funny because it's one of these things that, you know, we say all the time, carpe diem, seize the day. You know, we're always talking about that. And I have never liked that sentence, by the way, because it's translated wrong. And carpe diem doesn't mean seize the day. Carpe diem actually means pluck the day. It's a more intentional taking. Wow, so it's not just like going boom, get everything. No, pluck the day. And the whole sentence is carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero, which means pluck the day. Trusting as little as possible in the next one. That is how we should be living.

[Reshma Saujani]

Plucking the day.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yo, it's like you pluck the day. Intentional taking of things during the day, trusting as little as possible in the next one. So why are you making 5 year, 10 year plans when you could be plucking this day and taking intentionally what you need?

[Reshma Saujani]

How is plucking the day related to the urgent life? Similar, right?

[Bizoma St. John]

Feels like similar in that I wrote my book about how the tragedies, the grief, the things that came out of left field helped me to become the successful person. So the loss in my life made me feel more urgent about living. And I recognize that that is a very heavy thing to ask of people because grief is so, so, so dark. And no one would blame you and no one would blame me if I were to go into a corner and just lie down.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's right, they wouldn't.

[Bizoma St. John]

But for me, what has happened instead is that I really want to live a very full life, Reshma. Like, I want this life to feel like I've been, I'm here, you know, it's like when Peter died, it was four days before his 44th birthday. And people would say to me, oh, it's so tragic. He died so young. And I agree. I think he died too young. But at the same time, what makes me less fearful about getting up every day and like, what if. What if. What if. What if this happens? Or, what if that happens? What if my life is cut down short? Is that I want people to look at my life and say, God damn it, she lived God. She got everything that she wanted. She did everything in her moment. And that, for me, will feel fulfilling. And that is why I choose to live an urgent life, not a fast life. I didn't say that it's not fast, because urgency is like carpe diem. Urgency is an intentional plucking. Like, I'm not waiting until tomorrow to go do the thing that I want to do. I'm not just carelessly running around doing whatever it is that I have an intention of getting that thing, and I'm going to get it today.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, you're intentional.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yes, I'm intentional in the plucking.

[Reshma Saujani]

You know, I always say God never gives you what you can't handle.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yeah. I mean, look, I have a very unique relationship with God. I think all of us who believe in some sort of, you know, higher power probably believe that we have our own unique relationship. I think God and I are really homies, you know? We really are. I have honest conversations with God. You know, there's some reverence there, for sure. But I'm also like, come on. Like, come on, come on.

[Reshma Saujani]

Again.

[Bizoma St. John]

Are you serious right now? Like, I remember sitting in that front pew at Peter's funeral and having an argument with God while sitting there and thinking, are you fucking serious right now? Like, are you serious? Like, why am I sitting here? Why am I sitting in this front pew again? And I swear to you, if I sit in this front pew ever again in my life, I'm gonna do something to you. You know what I mean?

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah.

[Bizoma St. John]

I don't know what I'm gonna do to you, God, but I'm gonna do something, you know? And I was threatening God, and I still. You know what I mean? Because the truth of the matter is that I have had a lot of grief, and it feels unfair. It feels unfair. Yeah. I'm like, why? What did I do? I'm out here trying to just live a good life, be a good person. Why do these things happen? Like, why do I have to go through this? And the answer to me hasn't been clear. And so the only way that I can reconcile. It is to just live my life the best way that I can. To get up every day and be more powerful, be stronger, be kinder, be more loving, be more intentional. Like, those are the things that I can control. Everything else that happens, girl, I don't have any control over that. I'm going to live my life and I'm gonna enjoy it. And I better not see that front pew of the church ever again.

[Reshma Saujani]

You better not. So I have a question. When your husband, Peter, was diagnosed with cancer. Cause you were separated at this point.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

And his wish was to end the separation and get back together. And you said in another podcast, like, getting back together with him wasn't a yes for you, but for him. Tell me more about that.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yeah. Oh, it was such a hard thing, Reshma. It was hard because I had such conflicted feelings. It wasn't that I ever stopped loving Peter when we separated. That wasn't it. We had just suffered so much together. We couldn't see our way through. And while we were separated, we were trying really hard to be friends. You know, I'm chuckling because anyone who's ever been separated probably has tried that, you know, and you find that, you know, some days are really good and some days piss you off, you know, and you're just like, that's why I want a divorce. You know? And we certainly went through that. But when he was diagnosed and we knew that his cancer was terminal, things really changed, you know, for me. And I hate to sound so pithy about it, because did it really have to take a terminal diagnosis for me to see? And in my case, yes, it did. You know, I'm not ashamed to say that. And what I saw in him was that in order for him to go peacefully, he needed to have tied up all of the loose ends, the things he regretted. And I don't think I would ever forgive myself if I denied him that. And I loved him enough to give him that.

[Reshma Saujani]

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[Podcast Narrators/Hosts (Various Lemonada Media Hosts)]

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[Reshma Saujani]

So much has changed since you wrote the book. You left corporate America. You spent a lot of time in Kana. I briefly got to kind of see you when you were there. And now you're on the Real Housewives. Before we get to that, do you miss corporate America?

[Bizoma St. John]

I don't.

[Reshma Saujani]

Not at all?

[Bizoma St. John]

No. Not at all? Not a little bit. You know, it's funny, I miss creating in a structured environment. You know, I don't miss the bureaucracy. I don't miss the pretense. I don't miss the, you know, the pressure of the microaggressions. I don't miss those things. If we could get rid of those things in corporate America, I'd go back, but that's not happening in my lifetime, so.

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, what's fascinating to me is I think a lot of women who end up in the corporate world end up getting imposter syndrome. Cause they're in the. Especially women of color, right? Because you're in these structures that are not built for you. You kind of walk out of that environment more confident. How the hell did that happen?

[Bizoma St. John]

Well, you know what? That came out of failure, though. It came out of failure because, look, I realized actually very early on that I wasn't going to get to the corner office competing at the same level that everybody else was competing. And by the way, I had the gift of being at a very large company at Pepsi. And very quickly I recognized the fact that even if I did the work better than my quote unquote classmates, I wasn't going to be promoted at the same time as them understanding that it meant that there was no clear path forward the way they had the path forward. And so I gave up. I just said, well, you know what? I'm not going to get promoted with these people. And every review I go to, they tell me I'm too loud, I'm too brash. So I just gave up. And in giving up was actually then what gave me my freedom, which I know sounds so ridiculous, but it is true. Because what happened, girl? Well, because literally everybody who worked with me at the time, they know the day that I came in and I had given up.

[Reshma Saujani]

But what do you mean by give up? You mean like, I am not going to fit into your mold.

[Bizoma St. John]

I'm not fitting into the mold. I'm never going to become the CMO of the company. So you know what? Screw it. I had worn the gray suit before, girl. I came in the next day, I was wearing leather pants and my freaking flower top and my hair gonna be whatever it wants to be today. And I'm painting my nails red. I'm wearing them long. I'm putting on my lipstick. And when I'm sitting in the meeting, I'm going to say whatever the hell I want to say, because none of y' all are going to promote me anyway. Then all of a sudden, people start paying attention to me, and then they.

[Reshma Saujani]

Want you to be the cmo. Like, so.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

When you stop trying to play the game, they're like, oh, I want you. Is that what happened?

[Bizoma St. John]

Yes, that's what happened. That's what happened. It was the oddest, strangest thing. And the thing that is hard to explain and try to give somebody else those rules is that I know it sounds insane. I know it sounds impossible. I know it comes with a lot of risk. I know that you are going to stop doing whatever they're doing, and they will look at you crazy. You're gonna stop paying attention to the things they did or they're telling you to do, and they're gonna tell you you suck. They are going to do that. So accept that. Now, go in tomorrow wearing your leather pants, knowing that somebody's gonna be like, why in the hell would you wear that? Know that you're not gonna be invited to the next meeting because they gonna think you lost your mind. But if you keep going and you stick to whoever it is that you are, you will be the winner at the end because you are gonna be the unique one. While the rest of them are trying to busy themselves fitting into a mold that nobody wants anyway.

[Reshma Saujani]

Midlifers, listen up, man. This is, like, some gold advice here.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

I'm telling you, this is it, and I've done it.

[Bizoma St. John]

I'm the one who's standing on the other side of the large crevice. Okay? Who's telling you, sis?

[Reshma Saujani]

Jump.

[Bizoma St. John]

I'm not standing on the same side as you, telling you to jump, and I'll come after you, girl. I already made it. And I'm telling you to jump. Trust me. Jump.

[Reshma Saujani]

And you got to leave. Say, fuck you and start your own fucking company.

[Bizoma St. John]

Girl. That part. That part. And I took the knowledge of what I had already learned and I took the money.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes.

[Bizoma St. John]

And I started my own thing where I'm in charge.

[Reshma Saujani]

I love it. So I want to hear more about your hair and your hair care brand, Eve, because I think it's, like, so inspirational.

[Bizoma St. John]

I spent nine months learning about the entire industry. So I started with hair, and then I was like, oh, shit, I need to make hair care. Because you actually need specially formulated hair care in order to take care of that hair. So then I got with a black woman chemist here in California who has Worked at all the big ones, right? All the big companies. And she's in semi retirement. I was like, girl, I need you. And she formulated beautiful product for me. And so I created an entire system and I birthed it and I named it Eve. Both in honor of my first daughter who did not make it into life, but also for the Eve of all of us, you know, the woman who we are, the celebrated one from Africa, by the way. Because whether you are a religious or you're a scientist, it still started somewhere for months. Okay.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes, it did. So, Eve, can you walk me through your decision on, like, why you started this? Like, what made you do it?

[Bizoma St. John]

Oh, my gosh. Okay, so here's what had happened. When I left my global CMO job at Netflix, I thought I was taking a sabbatical to finish writing my book and to publish it for a year. The year was up. Published book. Yay. Yay. Yay. Fanfare I'm looking around, I'm like, whew. I really don't wanna go back there. I don't. And look, I had a few meetings. And again, this is why I'm saying that. Like, in hindsight, of course. And it's not that far in hindsight. Cause it was only two years ago. But what I'm telling you is that this shit is crazy. And it's hard to do because, you know, I'm sitting in these meetings, you know, talking about the next CMO job I'm gonna have. I talked about one CEO job that I could have. The money is big, the security is there. But I have run that play too many times. I know exactly what's gonna happen. They look at me and they're like, oh, she's so fabulous. She's so great. She has all these brilliant ideas. She does things differently.

[Reshma Saujani]

Ooh, ooh, ooh.

[Bizoma St. John]

And I'm gonna get in there, I'm gonna start to move their shit around. They're like, no, no, no. Don't move things around. Then I'm like, but you asked me to come here and do that. So now what? And then they get mad at me. So I was sitting there in one particular meeting, and I was really close, you know, to that decision point. And I just felt, you know, that definition of insanity doing the same thing again and again and again and expecting a different result. And I was sitting there thinking, girl, you do this and you are stuck, girl. I said, let me just pick up my purse. And I just would have said and.

[Reshma Saujani]

Walk out of here.

[Bizoma St. John]

Thank you so much for your time. I'M gonna see myself out. And I came home and cried. Oh, my God, I cried.

[Reshma Saujani]

Why'd you cry? Of joy? Or just fear?

[Bizoma St. John]

No, no, I cried of fear. I cried of frustration. Girl, I want to cry now. I cried because it just felt unfair. I was like, yo, I am talented. I am good. I'm good. And why. Why is this space? Why won't they take me as I am? Why do they always want to change me? And I cried. I cried. I cried. I cried for all of us. Because if I. Someone who's inducted into the Marketing hall of Fame, who has more awards than any of my counterparts, who has had four big CMO jobs, if I can't be who I am, how can anybody else? And one day I got up from my crying, and I was like, you know what? Actually, I'm pissed off. I'm mad as hell, and I'm gonna make my own thing. And some of it. Look, I wish I could be a bigger person and say that I just did it all for me. No, I did it to fuck them, too.

[Reshma Saujani]

I'm gonna fucking show you. Oh, yeah, That's Hell, yeah. That's like 99% of why I do half the things I do.

[Bizoma St. John]

Look, that's the energy. I was like, oh, okay, okay, okay. You know what? Actually, y' all have made me feel like I'm not good enough this whole time. Meanwhile, I'm better than you. Meanwhile, I'm stronger than you. Meanwhile, I'm wiser than you. Meanwhile, I know this culture so much better than you know it. And so I'm going to build something, and I'm going to do it better. And so I came out sweating, and.

[Reshma Saujani]

You'Re gonna get rich doing it.

[Bizoma St. John]

Hell, yeah. You know what I mean? I'm taking all their coins, everybody. But the crazy thing is, look, I have had. And, you know, a lot of women of color, especially black women, will tell you that our hair, you know, is a topic of conversation all the time and a topic of consideration, which is so crazy, right? It's like, look, if you're gonna go to an important business meeting, you are absolutely not wearing braids. You know, like, your hair says something about you before you even open your mouth. And so I thought about it, and I said, well, you know what. What is happening in the hair industry? You know? Is it like. For me, it's like, I love my wigs, extensions like bundles. Girl, I love it all. And as I thought about it, I was just like, man, you know what? When I'm doing my hair, the Hair that I'm using is not made for me.

[Reshma Saujani]

Right.

[Bizoma St. John]

It's made for white women. And if you go and search Google or YouTube or any place, you'll find millions of videos of black women and women of color who are like, they're kitchen chemists out here trying to, you know, maneuver and manipulate hair textures to match theirs. Or dyeing lace to match their complexion because the lace that the wigs and weaves are made on is too light of a color for our skin. And so, just like everything else, I was like, well, where does this start anyway? And I was like, oh, it starts in Asia. You know what? I'm gonna go. So I went to Guangzhou, China. By myself.

[Reshma Saujani]

No.

[Bizoma St. John]

For the largest hair show in the world. And it was like, everybody was there. It was huge. It was enormous. And I had my little, like, you know, my little placard, and I was walking around by myself. Six foot tall, black woman, alone. No translator, by the way, on day one. But I learned my lesson, though. Day two, I came back with a translator. Okay. And I was asking questions, you know, just like the basic questions. And it was. The questions I was asking didn't have complicated answers. You know, when I asked things like, hey, why. Why is it that the texture that you're selling doesn't match, like, African American or African hair? Why is that? And they're like, oh, nobody asked us to. Why is it that the lace is not brown? Ah, we don't have to do it. Wow.

[Podcast Narrators/Hosts (Various Lemonada Media Hosts)]

Like.

[Bizoma St. John]

Cause I expected, oh, the cogs are gonna go up, right? No, it wasn't there. It was just, oh, nobody asked us to.

[Reshma Saujani]

Because most of the entrepreneurs probably were not black.

[Bizoma St. John]

They're not. They're not black women. And women of color consume this particular industry, and there is no representation, not in manufacturing. They're not considered for anything. So I was like, oh, this is what I'm gonna do. Yes, I'm gonna go make it.

[Reshma Saujani]

Oh, God, what an incredible story.

[Bizoma St. John]

Hello, I'm James Corden, and on my new show, this Life of Mine, I sit down each week with some of the most fascinating people on planet Earth. From Dr. Dre to Julianne Moore to David Beckham to Cynthia Erivo to Martin Scorsese to Jeremy Renner to Denzel Washington to Kim Kardashian. We talk about the people, places, possessions, music, and memories that made them who they are. These are intimate conversations full of stories that you've never heard before. This Life of Mine premieres October 21st, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Reshma Saujani]

So we gotta talk about real Housewives.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yes, we do.

[Reshma Saujani]

Okay, so you're the newest member of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

I gotta say, you came on the show with, like, a point of view, knowing exactly who you are. No surprise. You're like, I'm not publicly bound down to anybody. I gotta ask you this.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yes, yes, please.

[Reshma Saujani]

When I watch reality TV shows, it sometimes feels like it's another space and place that was built kind of without people like you and me.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

So how are you breaking through?

[Bizoma St. John]

So here's the real scoop, right? Cause sometimes it's hard to have these conversations in, like, small sound bites. The real truth of it is that one, I knew I needed a bigger platform.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's right.

[Bizoma St. John]

In order to tell the story that I need to tell, there are very few spaces to do that. There have been way too much feedback of, like, oh, Bose, you can't do that. You can't do this, you can't do that. And I'm like, well, why can't I? Okay, well, I'm just gonna continue doing exactly what I wanna do. It worked 20 years ago, it's gonna work now. I could do whatever the hell I wanna do. Who's gonna stop me? And so having that kind of unapologetic attitude allowed me to look at the entire space and say, what is going to get me in front of people faster? And then on top of that, I'm like, well, you know, just because they act a particular way doesn't mean I have to act that way. Right. Again, like, my entire life and career, I have never had to conform to a space because it just. I wasn't allowed to. And so I've always had to make my own space. So why would this be different? Why would I have to come in and act like a whole bunch of other ladies that have been on the show? I don't have to do that. I don't have to do anything that they tell me to do.

[Reshma Saujani]

And I don't know if that's what people want to watch. Like, I want to watch you telling this story, not fighting some catty fight with, like, about. I don't even know, you know, about.

[Bizoma St. John]

Nothing, what's really interesting. Or for me, anyway, coming into it, and the conversation I was having with producers, with everybody, is just like, hey, look, I understand storytelling. I understand the pathway that you need to take in order to make television interesting. However, it can be. One note. Yes, of course, there's always conflict in a group of friends, and you need to figure out who's doing what. And why they did it, and blah, blah, blah, blah. However, it can be elevated. It doesn't have to be small. You and I, we've just talked about my life and how dramatic it's been for numerous reasons. And so why would I have to resort to name calling anybody when there's enough going on in my life that has its own drama? You know, like, you think building a company is just a cakewalk. It's not. There's lots of conflict in there. And do you think that having lived a life of widowhood for 11 years and raising my daughter alone, you know, trying to find love again, has that been easy? Oh, girl, no. And so there is so much more that you can get in a life which has been lived that I don't have to resort to name calling and pointing fingers at people for pithy things in order to be interesting on television. And so when you see me on the show, you will say, oh, I know her.

[Reshma Saujani]

I watched and I was like, that's my friend. It's so cool that you have literally stayed true to yourself, even on reality tv.

[Bizoma St. John]

Yeah, same person, same person, same outfits. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? I'm showing up in the same way. And my hope is that by doing that, I am still representing, you know, for the corporate girlies who are doing it their own way, you know, maybe some who aspire to be themselves wholly and completely and who haven't gotten there yet, you know, and so if I can do that, if I can be that, and it will be okay and likable, then you know what? I think we can change actually the way that this industry sees us and the kind of entertainment we need.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's right.

[Bizoma St. John]

Look, I'm not judging anybody. I'm like, look, you want to go ahead and square up and squabble, do that. Okay. That's your life. But it's not my life.

[Reshma Saujani]

Mic drop. This is the best conversation. Thank you. This was so powerful.

[Bizoma St. John]

I love you, Reshma.

[Reshma Saujani]

I love you too.

[Bizoma St. John]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate the conversation.

[Reshma Saujani]

I'm so, so proud of you. I can't tell you, like, on how many different layers and places that you just a role model for so many of us. I love you.

[Bizoma St. John]

Thank you so much.

[Reshma Saujani]

If you want to get even more of Bazoma's wisdom, watch her on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills and read her book, the Urgent Life. See you all next week.

[Bizoma St. John]

Week.

[Reshma Saujani]

There's more of my so called midlife. With Lemonada, premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like midlife advice that didn't make it into the show. Subscribe Now In Apple Podcasts, I'm your host Reshma Sajani. Our producer is Claire Jones. This series is sound designed by Ivan Koraev. Our theme was composed by Ivan Kurayev and performed by Ryan Jewell, Ivan Kurayev and Karen Waltock. Our senior Supervising Producer is Kristen Lepore. Our VP of New Content is Rachel Neal. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax, and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this [e-mail] midlife follow my so called Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks for listening. See you next week. Bye. Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium. On Apple Podcasts, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium are you looking for ways.

[Podcast Narrators/Hosts (Various Lemonada Media Hosts)]

To make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions. Solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister Elizabeth Craft.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood.

[Podcast Narrators/Hosts (Various Lemonada Media Hosts)]

Join us as we explore ideas and.

[Bizoma St. John]

Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

[Podcast Narrators/Hosts (Various Lemonada Media Hosts)]

Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.