← My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
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- [00:01]
Reshma Sajani
Today's episode is supported by what Should I Do with My Money? An original podcast from Morgan Stanley. This podcast pairs real people with experienced financial advisors. You'll hear candid conversations from people just like you with questions just like yours. Questions like can I retire early? Like really early? How do I leave a financial legacy for my special needs child? Menopause is making me feel wacky and it's shifting how I think about money.
- [00:26]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Help.
- [00:27]
Reshma Sajani
These conversations can get emotional, but they're always practical. I checked out the episode about money, motherhood and menopause on what should I do with my Money? And I loved hearing from other women who are also committed to setting their kids up for success and hearing how menopause plays into work and money and just everything. It's so on brand with what we talk about every week on the show. Search for what Should I Do with My Money in your podcast player. We'll also include a link in the show Notes. Thank you to what Should I Do with My Money? And Morgan Stanley for their support. I want to share a new podcast with you that has my attention on so youo Parents Are Old journalist Vanessa Grigoriades talks to friends, experts and celebrities about the chaos of dealing with your kids and aging parents. From Medicaid nightmares to emotional meltdowns and storage units, it's a brutally honest, often hilarious look at one of life's most disorienting stages. Come for the catharsis, stay for the gallows humor and unfiltered conversations. If you're currently the parent to your parents, this is your group chat and podcast form. You'll hear from talk show host Lisa Gibbons, who talks about her own parents, comedians Lewis Black and Kathleen Madigan, someone whose father was in the mob, a real estate agent on what to do with your parents home, a filmmaker on the joys and struggles of caring for aging loved ones and so many more. Find so youo Parents Are Old wherever you get your podcasts. Lemonada welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. I don't know about you, but I find myself losing my temper more in my midlife than ever before. I'm sleep deprived, I'm anxious, stuff is just happening in my body that's always affecting my mood. And you know who tends to get the brunt of that temper these days? My kids. As you know, I got a 5 year old and a 10 year old. They are my heart. I'm obsessed with them. But I'm not gonna lie, they also are a handful. I mean, their batteries never die. They don't like to go to sleep when I tell them to. They love to scream, and they love to tell me all the things that I got wrong. Mommies always mean. So, for example, when I really need to get out the door and they're dragging their feet, oof. My temper can flare up real quick. And when shit's hitting the fan like that, my go to text or email is often. Dr. Becky. Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist, mom of three, and the founder of Good Inside. Good Inside is on a mission to break down big parenting topics into these simple, actionable strategies that parents can actually use. By focusing on the parent behind the parenting and the child behind the behavior, they really help families heal. They've helped my family heal, and they bring out the good inside of all of us. And that point, focusing on the parent behind the parenting is life changing. It's got me to kind of stop in these hard moments when one kid is crying, the other one's being super clingy, and just go, okay, what is going on with me right now? Why am I so triggered by this? What do I need in this moment? It's also allowed me to take to heart Another thing Dr. Becky says. It's my weekend, too. I know. So simple, but so profound, right? It's my weekend, too. I don't. We don't have to always just live for our kids. And we don't have to feel guilty when we're taking time for ourselves, getting that nap, watching that White Lotus episode. I mean, doing whatever it is that we want to do. She reminded me that it's actually important that our kids see us putting ourselves first, because if we don't, we're just creating this generational cycle of people who are always gonna live for others. And not in a good way, but in a way that just exhausts them and just tires them out. And so, for me, I'm not gonna feel guilty about not going to that Lego Robotics competition on the weekend again. I'm not gonna feel guilty when I just drop them off and be like, have fun, baby. I don't have to sit there for nine hours and just wait, watch him. I can go get that massage, read that book, or just do my favorite thing. Nothing. And that's the way that I become the best parent possible, by putting my oxygen mask on first and taking care of me. If mommy's good, the family's good. I want to show up 100% for my kids when it matters the most. So enjoy this conversation with Dr. Becky. I hope you'll get something out of it. Midlifers. I know you will. Dr. Becky. We talk a lot on the show about mindset and about our mindset in midlife. And literally, it varies for everybody, right? Some people are like, I love this. This is amazing. I feel so strong and powerful. And other people are like, this is like everything's gone to hell in a handbasket. So what's your midlife mindset?
- [05:58]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
You know, it's so. It's a. It's a good day to ask me that. Can I.
- [06:02]
Reshma Sajani
Okay, tell me.
- [06:03]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Why should I tell you? My. My mindset or the one that I'm trying to adopt?
- [06:08]
Reshma Sajani
Both. Okay.
- [06:10]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
No, I mean, the one that I really am trying to adopt. And it's funny, because this real. That I. I taught about this at Duke University recently. I actually took over and guest lectured this class, and I went over this kind of concept I love, and it really is, I think, the mindset and life space I'm in, and it's called the learning space.
- [06:29]
Reshma Sajani
Okay, so I did see this reel, but tell me. I loved it. Go ahead, go.
- [06:33]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
So, you know, if you think about a point that we all start at, which is. I call it, like, not knowing or not being very good at something, everybody starts there. I mean, your kids start there. And that they don't know how to walk or they don't know how to read, Right? But definitely, at this point in my life, I mean, we're trying to really build this pretty big movement, and we have a lot of ideas about where we want to go, but to some degree, I'm like, how exactly are we going to get there? That's not knowing. And then on the other side, and anyone who's listening, I'd put your hand and look at the other hand, but I'd make sure they're far away from each other. And then that side is. Let's say it's knowing, like, or quote, success, whatever that means. So again, for your kid, it could be, I don't know how to read. I do know how to read. I don't know how to do a puzzle. I do know how to do a puzzle. You know, I'm starting a company. I'm at a point where I feel like we really achieved our goals. And then there's this space in between. And I term that space the learning space. And that space has one feeling, at least one feeling, but it always has this feeling, which is frustration. Because whenever you're between not knowing and knowing, you're struggling and you're frustrated. And I think especially in this world that we live in now with so much immediate gratification and so many exit ramps from frustration into distraction or a quick, you know, purchasing of something you don't need based on a targeted ad. Right. We have a lower and lower tolerance for the space because we have a lower and lower tolerance for frustration. But the irony is success. And I always think about this to my kids, but I think this is my mindset now, too. Success isn't getting to knowing as soon as possible. We unconsciously think that's the case, and then we tell ourselves we're doing something wrong when we're in the, like, messy learning space. But I think the better we get, not at getting to success, but at actually tolerating the frustration that's inherent in the learning space. That's kind of what life is all about. And so my midlife mindset is giving myself permission to be in the learning space, to not know, to trust. Kind of the learning and the struggle and not be in such a rush to get to the elusive kind of moment of knowing and success.
- [08:57]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [08:57]
Reshma Sajani
It's so powerful. You say that. I'm reading a book by Jim Murphy about the inner excellence, and that's what he says about athletes. Right. It's like, you love the journey and not the destination. So if they're, like, starting an Olympic trial or starting a, you know, an NBA final, they're not about winning. They're about, like, did I do my best potential? Did I compete with myself the most? And it's the joy is in the fight to be excellent. And I love that because I really. I live my life like that. At least I try to. But I'm with you. Like, I get. And I feel like I was there last night, I'm laying in bed and I was praying, and I was talking to God about this. Like, sometimes you're just like. It's the fear of, like, is it gonna happen? Are we gonna do this? Like, is this. Is this really gonna work?
- [09:46]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
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Reshma Sajani
Am I really gonna meet my potential? And it messes with you.
- [09:53]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah. That questioning, that kind of self doubt. Yeah. And I think that probably the reaching of your potential we associate with that, like, last point of, like, quote, knowing or success. When I was teaching this class at Duke, the professor who I was kind of guest lecturing. Hey, students, here's the irony. You actually never get there. Sorry. Becky should say this. A good athlete never gets to the point where they're like, I've done everything I could do or. Right. I mean, and so it really is about building comfort with the journey and the struggle and the self questioning and being like, this is actually all part of this crazy roller coaster I'm on. And I do know, and I can't keep this mindset all the time, but when I am able to drop into no, Becky, like, this is it today. Like, this is the process. This is the thing I can dig into. There's no quick answer. There's no perfect right moment. You know, I think I hear that from friends all the time with various decisions. Like, well, when I figure it all out, I'm going to. Or when I have clarity on this or, you know, when I can feel good about going back to work without feeling guilty about leaving my kids. Like, okay, those things don't happen. Like, no, no, that never happens. Happens.
- [11:06]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah, right.
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Dr. Becky Kennedy
But that struggling, I feel like, is right is where it's at.
- [11:11]
Reshma Sajani
But can I ask you a question, Becky? Like, look, we're freaking tired moms.
- [11:16]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah.
- [11:17]
Reshma Sajani
Exhausted. Totally. What's the role of. And I'm going to focus because, you know, in this podcast, you know, we focus on moms. What's the. What's the role of me? Like, because sometimes, like, I can't be there. And the airplane pilot.
- [11:31]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Right.
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Reshma Sajani
And make everybody feel safe because I got shit going on with me.
- [11:35]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
So this is actually where I think good inside thrives. And I would say where what we're doing, it's hard to come across on Instagram because those are like 32nd, you know, like band Aids. But this isn't a deep way. We always say we change parents. We help parents more than their parenting, which says a lot because we really help someone's parenting. So, you know, so think about that. So a couple of things. Like, I don't have time. Right. Number one, I think when we become a parent, we realize that, like, very little about our interaction with our kids has to do with our kids. Very little.
- [12:09]
Reshma Sajani
That's right.
- [12:09]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Very little.
- [12:10]
Reshma Sajani
Like, it's all about my mood. What happened to me? Why am I angry? Did I not sleep enough? Did I not eat enough? Did something happen at work? Right. Exactly.
- [12:16]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's exactly right. Am I stressed about a meeting on Monday and how I respond to my kids saying they don't like the dinner I made on Sunday night? Probably has more to do with my unprocessed anxiety than. Of course, nobody likes their kid complaining. Everyone's like, so people like their kid whining. No, but how you respond to your kid. Whining isn't just about the sound. It's about your own emotion regulation skills. That's probably a tiny bit about the whining and a lot of it. The fight you decide with your partner, the meeting you have tomorrow, and you know, all the unfulfilled needs we had. So you're right. That's what it is about. And then I think, look, we often get very black and white. We're like, I don't have time for that. Like, here's the thing. I know when you're yelling at your kids constantly, when you're in a cycle of one power struggle to the next and one tantrum to the next and kind of crisis management to crisis management, we're just so used to living that way that we don't realize how much time that takes up. Plus the time it takes to fall asleep at night. Because I feel like a shitty parent all the time and it wakes me up. So what I like to say to parents, I'm busy. You know me, Reshma, I have no tolerance for fluff or efficiency. And that is why I believe what we're doing is so important. Because what we give to isn't just how to handle your kids whining or how to handle their hitting, but what to say to yourself to stay calm, even understanding. Why do I get so triggered from whining versus from my kid being clingy? And that's the stuff that really starts to change your whole life.
- [13:43]
Reshma Sajani
So what's your best? Because you said this to me once. You said, you know, it's interesting people are coming to you with their kids, but really they're coming to me about themselves. And, you know, and that's what the good inside community is, is like, help me.
- [13:54]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's right.
- [13:55]
Reshma Sajani
So what are the things that people are coming to you for and what are the, like, the best piece of advice that you've been able to give women, probably a midlife, to help them.
- [14:07]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
So, okay, I think people generally come because there's some fire in their home. That's what it is. There's a fire. So the fire could be my kid isn't sleeping and I'm. I'm done sleeping in their room to put them to sleep. That work for a while, doesn't work anymore. Or my kid's having tantrum after tantrum after tantrum, or my kid, I might not realize it, this is a lot, but they're a deeply feeling kid. And so a lot of the stuff that works with their kids doesn't work with them. There's always something with your kid that's like, this is untenable. Okay? And then we start by like, saying, hey, this is true. If there's a fire in your home, you got to put out the fire. Nobody wants to live in a fire zone. That's awful. So we put out the fire. We help parents understand what's happening in a different way that immediately gives them relief. This is why people say, especially in a workshop, like, why do I feel better right away? Because you have a new set of glasses. Because the set of glasses you were wearing was making you panic. Actually, not the events itself. So you understand it in a new way. You feel more capable. You know what to do in a hard moment and what to do outside of that hard moment. So there's just fewer of those in the first place. That I would say is how we get people to return to baseline. And I love that. That's called. I call that yellow mode. Help me return to baseline. Where I think we're best is kind of more like green mode. Okay. Which is raising your baseline better than knowing how to fight fires. Is having fewer fires. Like, I don't want people to be expert firefighters all the time. That means you're fighting fires all the time. That's living in a constant state of panic in your own body. And I say to parents, like, I want better for you than being very good at fighting fires. I want you to have fewer fires. There are always gonna be some. And how do we do that? That's the stuff that has just a tiny bit to do with your kids. That has to do with. Do I know how to set boundaries? And I bet most people don't because we weren't taught. Do I know how to set true boundaries? I think I'm setting boundaries. I'm probably making requests and then feeling resentful. Do I know how to recognize my own needs? Do I know how to get my needs met, even if it inconveniences the family people. That's right. Do I know how to repair with myself and with my kids? Because perfect parenting, not only is it not possible, it's creepy and would be weird for everybody involved. So I wouldn't even wish that on anyone. But do I know how to recover after? Do I know how to get rid of this whole motherhood is martyrdom thing and actually be a sturdy leader? That's the stuff that when parents are in that mode and then they switch out of that mode because they're like, oh, sleep problem. Just help. We're always moving around. But that's the stuff that parents say. And this is, we just had this kind of mini retreat of these members and this is going to sound cheesy and. But what they say is, they say, good inside has changed my life. Not my parenting, not my kids. Because they're like, I finally feel confident. Like, this is. Is it weird, Becky, that I actually look forward to my kid having a meltdown in public? Cause I actually feel like I know exactly what to do. And I kind of feel like a powerful badass, like knowing it. And I'm like, no. I think it's probably what happens to a pilot when they feel really prepared. They're not crossing their fingers and saying, I hope there's not turbulence. They're like, you know what? Whatever weather comes my way, boom, boom, boom. I've. And that's what I want for parents. That's really what I want for moms. That power.
- [17:35]
Reshma Sajani
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- [22:21]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I think what we.
- [22:22]
Reshma Sajani
The trap that we fall into. I think about my this past weekend, right? Like, everything I did, I did for my kids. I went and searched for three tennis courts on Saturday because my son wanted to play tennis and, like, did nothing for myself. I spent my all day on Sunday at a Lego league. You know what I mean? Convention, whatever.
- [22:40]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
You gotta text me. You gotta text me, girl.
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Reshma Sajani
I gotta text you.
- [22:43]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
And this is. This is, I think, an issue because then we feel exhausted and resentful. And then I always imagine there are these parts of us that are like, remember your friends. Remember how you like to read a book? And they're, like, trying to get our attention. And we're like, no, there's Lego tournaments to attend. I have to watch my perfectly below average son play baseball for 19 hours, okay, for my whole weekend, right?
- [23:09]
Reshma Sajani
And both of us have to be here. And when either one of us could have left at any moment and had a spa day, had a boozy brunch, read a book, and it would be fine.
- [23:19]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
And then I feel like those parts of us, because they've been trying to get our attention with, like, reasonable voices. When people talk about these moments of rage when they scare themselves, as a mom, I really do visualize it's like those parts of us being like, I was trying to get your attention earlier and you didn't listen, and I'm actually trying to save you. Like, you don't really want this life for yourself. You really don't.
- [23:43]
Reshma Sajani
So what's. What's the advice that you give, right? Like that int. Because I think it often starts with this idea of intensive parenting, right? This sense of guilt. And. And you just said the first thing you said. Boundaries.
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Dr. Becky Kennedy
Boundaries.
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Reshma Sajani
How? Boundaries.
- [23:57]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
So let's talk about boundaries. And I love pilots, okay? I mean, I actually don't know any pilots, but I love pilot metaphors. And the reason is because there's very few times in your adulthood where your safety is fully dependent on another adult. Like, I know you have a husband. I'm sure you love him. But, like, you literally could survive without him. You can't survive on a plane without the pilot, right? And that is the best metaphor. So here, let's just start with this and we'll get to the specifics. I want you imagine getting on a plane and hearing a pilot feeling, I love piloting. I love it. I love it so much. And I love you all so much. I haven't slept in a week. I haven't left in a week because I love piloting. And okay, Reshma, you and I on that plane were like, get.
- [24:37]
Reshma Sajani
Get me the off this plane.
- [24:40]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
And. And tells. And by the way, I once used this metaphor and someone raised their hand in a group and they're like, no, no, there's laws. And I was like, oh, my goodness, you're right. Aren't there laws? Like, you've been waiting for a plan? And they're like, sorry, the crew is not allowed to fly because there's laws that mandate taking a break. So I think about that a lot. So let's break that down and make that practical. Number one, motherhood as martyrdom. I do everything for my kids is as bad for kids as a pilot who loves piloting so much that they haven't done one thing for themselves would be bad for passengers. It's really bad for everyone. Number one, it's bad as a model. Number two, it's bad for kids to see. Wow. My own desires and wants have the power to run my parent into the ground. And number three, it creates remarkably entitled children who are like, the whole world is meant for my pleasure. Whenever I want something that shall happen, right? Like, no matter what sport, what Friday night football, what tournament, what team, like, anything I want, I have the power to change my family structure around now. Is there something between that and, oh, my goodness, I don't ever let my kid have a playdate. Of course, like, there's a lot between that. But I think it's helpful as a parent just to say, where do I fall in that spectrum? Because it just gives us insight into how to get a little closer to the middle. So I'm a mom of three, and this is something. Me and my husband talk about it a lot because I'm someone who tries at first. I can get it all in. And Friday Night Lights is a good one. No shade to Friday Night Lights in New York City, but Friday Night Lights is like all these kids playing flag football. And at least in my case, like, none of my kids, this is, you know, it's like, fine, they like it. It's not even, like, forget whether they're good or not. It's not like this is their number one sport, okay, that they love. And it has a huge impact on me. And my husband, because we would like to spend Friday cooking dinner, just ourselves, not going out, just like chilling. And as our kids get older, it's a lovely night to, like, be with them, maybe watch a movie, do a puzzle. The things that we actually really do try to do to keep our family functioning. And so we did not sign up our 7 year old for Friday Night Lights, even though all of his friends do it. And I can tell you, a couple of years ago, when my older one wanted to do it, what we said to him is, look, we spend a lot of time at basketball, at baseball. You're old enough now, I want to tell you, we'll probably come to one out of every four to five Friday Night Lights. And there's something that's good about that for you. Like, you'd be doing it because you love to do it, not to be watched. Now, I have to be honest, I was probably one of the only parents who did that, right.
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Reshma Sajani
That pulled up, dropped him off and.
- [27:18]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Like, left, by the way, I did not pull up and drop him off. I got that kid a carpool. I'm having my Friday night. Did you not hear me? I'm cooking dinner. I'm not pulling up and dropping off.
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Reshma Sajani
No.
- [27:26]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
There were plenty of parents going, okay. And. And again, we don't ever want to be defined as a parent by one moment. Like, you know, when he was doing that, I was able to be with my other kids or I was going to his basketball game. But again, it's about the spectrum. And I think, yes, I do want to give parents permission to say, I am not doing everything on a weekend to optimize for my kid. I have this phrase. I don't know if you. It's my weekend too. Like, it's. It's my weekend too. How about my weekend? Right? And again, it's not good for your kids for them to think they have full ownership. No wonder we're worried about kids becoming unable to tolerate frustration and disappointment. Like, there is a reason to set a boundary. And this comes back to a parent's job because, let me just play out this flag football thing. When I told my youngest one, my 7 year old, that he wasn't gonna do flag football, you know, this specific, we'll take it kind of whatever, semester ish by semester. When I said that to him and I said in a respectful way, it wasn't like, no, that's not important. I was like, look, here's what you're doing. We can't make that work. We think about you and we think about the family, and this is one of those times that the impact is really big on the family and we're gonna skip it. And there's probably other things. Whatever he does not say to me, mom, that's. It's really reasonable. And I love that you're protecting your. Your needs and you're such a sturdy leader. You know what? It is your weekend too, and I want to give you a high five. No. Okay. And I say that because, people, what did he do? What do you think he did? The first time I told him he had a.
- [28:58]
Reshma Sajani
He had a tantrum.
- [28:59]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Of course he did. Because a tantrum is just a way of saying, I want something and I'm not getting it. Like, that's actually very normal. And so we can't expect our kids to high five us and approve the decisions we make that are for our own benefit or for the benefit of the family or even for the benefit of our kids. Long term. The only decisions we ever make that we get approval from our kids for are the ones that bring them short term, immediate gratification, which we all do sometimes because.
- [29:33]
Reshma Sajani
Or.
- [29:33]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Cause we just can't deal with the meltdown. But when we realize our kids pushback and meltdown is actually a sign that we set a boundary or we're taking care of ourselves or protecting the family unit instead of a single child, it actually changes the game. Cause you're like, oh, I guess I kind of did the thing I wanted to do, even though it's not an enjoyable moment.
- [29:54]
Reshma Sajani
So, you know, I'm sure you saw the surgeon general had that report about the mental health of parents, right. And that 41% of parents, right. Say that they're so stressed they can't function, and 48% is like, so overwhelming they can't do anything. And like, what did you. I'm sure that rings true for you. And like, what are some real steps parents, women can take in like, reclaiming their mental health? So we talked about boundaries. What else?
- [30:21]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
So, yeah, so number one, and because we're talking about parents, right? Parents, mental health. I mean, I think there's. And you're one to talk about systems. There's a systemic issue before we get to concrete steps. Because I do feel like someone saying to someone who, like, didn't go to medical school, like, what is some concrete steps to do surgery? They'd be like, well, I don't know, there's probably, like a system. Like, I need to like, learn about the body first. Right. And it would probably be short selling Everyone to just get a scalpel and start trying things out. I think the first step. And then we'll get more concrete as we go. I think parents worldwide have to really reflect on this maternal instinct narrative that has been shoved down our throat for years and ask themselves whether that actually makes sense and works for them or not. I actually think it's had a profound impact. Tell me more maternal instinct. Okay. I just think about any other difficult job in the world. Surgery. Do I think there are surgeons who have a surgical instinct? I mean, they probably have that. There are probably people who are more. They have their. Something that, like, they have naturally. I can also tell you I would never see a surgeon who's getting by on surgical instinct and didn't go to medical school, like, ever. You know, I wouldn't. I'd be like, great, you have a surgical instinct. And what else? I think about athletes who. There are probably some great basketball players in the NBA who, like, naturally were good at basketball from age two. And you know what they do? They go to the best training camps. They get the best coaches. They actually do the most hardcore training. Not because they don't have something in them, because they do. And yet parenting. There's been this, I think, really nasty brainwashing message. And I say it's nasty because it sounds nice, but it's really pernicious and holds women back. Like, you should be able to do the hardest job in the world just by instinct. Like, the world kind of tells us we should read books in pregnancy. And then you have a baby, and the only thing they say at the hospital is you have to go home with a car seat, which you should. But most parents I know is they're like, who's what? Like, how are they letting me do this? And so I think way bigger pictures for every parent to say. When I'm struggling with my kid, do I tell myself the story of something's wrong with me and I'm not fit for this and something's wrong with my kid? Or do I tell myself the story that all this means is I'm not getting the more comprehensive kind of really valuable resources that I deserve, given the very important job that I have.
- [33:06]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [33:07]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
And I think that really matters.
- [33:08]
Reshma Sajani
You're kind of blowing my mind a little bit. Because, to be honest, at first, I think when you were talking, I'm like, what, you want me to take another class? Like, to do this, like. Or, like, you know, take some parenting? Because this is like. But in some ways, just like anything else, if you actually have some expertise, systems in place, knowledge, information. It makes everything down the road much easier.
- [33:32]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I mean, yes.
- [33:48]
Reshma Sajani
If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no bs. Here's why I said yes to making the switch and getting Premium Wireless for $15 a month. Look, I was tired of those jaw dropping bills from my old provider. The random fees, the overages, the fine print with Mint plans start at just $15 a. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network. And the best part? You don't have to buy a new phone. You can just use your own device with any Mint Mobile plan and even keep your phone number and all your contacts. Honestly, the service quality is every bit as good as my old provider. But now I'm saving money every month. That's money back in my pocket for things I actually want. Ready to say yes to saying no? Make the switch@mintmobile.com midlife that's mintmobile.com midlife upfront payment of $45 required equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for the first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. I don't know about you, but I've always struggled with burnout and focused. This is such a common experience for so many of us, but what we don't realize is that sometimes the difficulties you go through might be something deeper. It might be time to explore what it means to be neurodivergent. If that's where you're at, I want to tell you about another podcast you should check out. It's called Hyperfocus with Ray Jacobson. Each episode Ray speaks with a different expert, whether they're a scientist, doctor or researcher, to dive into some of the big questions and headlines around mental health and well being from an ADHD lens. They talk about things like can you really hack your dopamine? And what parents need to know about the MAHA report. I checked out a few episodes and was so impressed by how they broke down adhd I thought I knew what ADHD was. But hyperfocus taught me the misconceptions, what to look out for with kids with adhd, and even trace back the history of how women have been underrepresented in ADHD diagnosis. As a parent and midlifer, I feel better equipped to understand what it really means to have ADHD and how to support those around me who are neurodivergent. If you're curious about adhd, make sure to listen to Hyperfocus with Ray Jacobson. Search for Hyperfocus with Ray Jacobson in your podcast app. That's Hyperfocus with Ray Jacobson.
- [36:22]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, hi everybody, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus from the Wiser Than Me podcast. And I'm not gonna talk about food waste. This I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill. It could be enriching our soil or feeding our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly, way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. But it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true. I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and it's fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks, but the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and it's engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you have to kind of live with mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.
- [37:51]
Reshma Sajani
There's one thing that all people on earth have in common. We move through the world in a human body. Bodies ache, they bleed, they desire, they hold the stories of our lives. And when people have power over their bodies, when they can access the care their bodies need, they can begin to write their own stories. International Planned Parenthood Federation, or ippf, is the world's largest network for sexual and reproductive health rights and justice. They are sharing real stories of people around the world. People like Alina in Malawi who walked miles to the nearest clinic to birth her baby, only to give birth. Along the way, every body holds a story and you can read just a few of them now@ippf.org everybody. I want to talk about anger because it's oh my favorite, because you talk a lot about mom rage, mom guilt. Like, okay, what is rage exactly? And then where does mom rage come from? That makes it different than other kinds of rages. Great.
- [39:09]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
So start with anger.
- [39:10]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [39:10]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
So anger, to me is one of our most important emotions. It is a healthy emotion. It is a needed emotion. It gets a very, very bad reputation because most of us didn't learn skills to manage anger. And so the anger still comes out as kind of dysregulated behavior. But the anger itself is not the problem. Right. It's like kind of like if an egg cracks, that's not the egg's fault. Like it just needed to be in a container, you know, that's kind of how I think about that. Anger is a feeling that puts you in touch with what you want or need and aren't getting. And if you zoom out, like, that's kind of amazing that our body will give us a sensation to tell us, I'm not getting what I want or need. I kind of feel like everyone needs to pause and like, put their hand on their heart, be like, sorry, anger, I've been. I've been really mean to you. Sorry. Like, thank you for your years, your years of service. Of service. Thank you. Thank you. Oops. I really mean it because I do think anger feels very misunderstood in our body.
- [40:21]
Reshma Sajani
And.
- [40:21]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
And something I said to someone that they said really, you know, stuck with them forever. So I want to say it here is access to anger is a sign that you still have access to self worth. Because if you're someone, you're like, I'm never angry. What I would say is, oh, you, you've lost the idea that you deserve things. You don't believe you can want things if people don't give them to you. Because having anger is a sign that you still have access to self worth. So that's anger. Now, most of us, and I would say, especially us women who are little girls, there's no feeling that is a shameful for a little girl. Especially a family who wants a quote, good girl as anger. Because anger is remarkably inconvenient in children. I want something and I'm saying I want it. Which means I'm probably yelling or screaming because I don't have the skills yet. Well, parents often find that very inconvenient. We get sent to our room. You're so ungrateful. That's not how we do things in our family. Why do you have to be so difficult? And here's the big thing. When kids get sent away or punished for, quote, bad behavior, they don't learn that the expression of the feeling was the problem. They learn that the feeling, the source of problem Was the problem. So you go, oh, if only. I never felt angry. If only. Really, I never had needs for myself, which is why most women, the most terrifying question you can ask them is, what do you want?
- [41:50]
Reshma Sajani
Mm.
- [41:51]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Oh, no, my husband. No, no, no, I'm not talking. What do you want? Well, he never. No, what do you want? They're like, why am I having a panic attack? Because we're trying to get back in touch with something that you was extremely dangerous and led to disconnection, unlovability. Right. And so how does this relate to rage and even for moms? Well, if one of the things that was adaptive in your early years was building up a lot of layers to keep anger and really want, and I would say access to desire locked away, then of course, you run yourself into the ground all the time with your kids. It feels like, sure, I can make that play date work. Yeah, I can actually do a homemade, you know, homemade cupcakes with extra frosting for the bake sale. Even though everyone else is, like doing, you know, store bought. And yes, I can stay up late because I'm gonna clean my house and make it look perfect. And then you get to a point where, again, that locked away desire that wants something for yourself is so sick of being so ignored and put in a closet that she. She shows up big time in a really inopportune moment, and you find yourself taken over and screaming at your 2 year old in a way that terrifies your kid, but probably really terrifies you. And then you tell yourself after, I'm a monster. And then the lesson your body learns is, ugh, I'm a horrible person. In some ways, the shame blames the anger. And in some ways, you've just set yourself up for the same cycle again, so powerful.
- [43:27]
Reshma Sajani
I was at. I was with a bunch of women last night talking about this point, about how we're all trying to reconcile the little girl in us. Right. And what you've been saying, what you just said is so powerful, is like we've suppressed our anger for so long, we've suppressed our desires for so long that it comes out in anger. And I think that's why we feel sometimes the most angry in midlife, because it's really just toppling over. So do you feel like the solution to this then is to really unleash our desires? And how do we figure out what they are? Because for a lot of women in the room last night, I feel the same way. I don't even know what I want anymore. I don't know What I like anymore. I don't know what my hobbies are anymore. I don't. I don't know.
- [44:14]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I know. So look, no, it's not like Dr. Becky said, just everyone, go yell at everyone and unleash that anger. It's not for, like, like, particularly adaptive.
- [44:22]
Reshma Sajani
Or, like, you know, do a little. A bunch of mushrooms and, like, have a bunch of affairs and, like, you know, move to an ashram. I don't know.
- [44:28]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
I know. Sometimes I think the real alternative, when people tell me, like, whether it's parenting help, like, we have deeper levels than Instagram or therapy is expensive. I'm always like, well, it's cheaper than our monthly wine habit, you know, which I think people don't even realize that's the alternative. So. Okay, first of all, it is very powerful to just take a moment once a day, once a week, and sit on your closet. Like, that's what I do. Put my hand on my heart and even just to start, like. And I kind of did it before, and I wasn't joking. Like, anger, like, that's interesting. You tell me what I need. No wonder that's scary. I kind of learned that my relationships were safest when I didn't need anything for myself. There's really something to thanking the parts of you that had to learn the lessons they did for them to kind of release a little bit. And I think we skipped that step. We're like, oh, right. And then we blame ourselves more. Like, why is this so hard for me? I'm 45 now. I'm 60. I should know what I need. I'm an adult. No, you should really say to a part of you not knowing what I need. I wasn't born like that. I definitely wasn't a baby saying, I don't know if I'm hungry at 2am Maybe I'll just sleep through the night. No, you screamed out because you knew you were hungry. So I didn't start like this. And there must have been something really important about distancing myself. And you really should. Rajma says, thank you. Thank you. You got me through 18 years. I. I mean, how crafty. You figured out how to not need things, how to be good for everyone. And this is so powerful to say to yourself. It's 2025 now. Like, you have to almost whisper it like, that part of you because it doesn't know. And. And I know for some people, listening to me like this sounds so cheesy. I swear, you do this exercise, you're hysterically crying because that part of You. It's like, like, oh, I. I needed to hear that. The parts of us in our body that were put in place to protect us. Dick Schwartz says this. They're so busy protecting us that they're always looking out, like, hyper vigilant, to the point that they don't know we're growing up. That actually, like, we're in our 40s or 50s or 60s and it's not as dangerous. So that is step one and that is concrete and true. And I would actually do it. Now. Listen, one of my favorite. I literally just got a message from it this morning. So full circle. And I kind of knew it would be full circle. I'm like, rash was going to want to talk about rage and mom rage, right? Which I say mom rage. Not because I. Because our form of rage is unique because of the ways we've learned to so distance ourselves from desires. This woman literally just wrote me that mom rage workshop was more helpful than five years of therapy. They're like, I can't even believe it. So I, I just, I want people to know that you are not alone. That, like, that is probably one of our most popular workshops. Meaning there's no way you're the only one who feels like a monster. But one of the things that I wanna, like, really give people around there is this metaphor. It's one of the things I talk about in the workshop. I hear this from parents all the time, but I don't, okay, I have 20 minutes to myself. I don't even know what to do. So what's the point? I don't even know what to do. What would I even do if I didn't go to my kids, you know, 19 hour baseball game? I don't even know if I like a spa. I don't even know if I like, walks anymore. Okay, but think about this. That part of you, that self care part, true self care, okay, is starving. Is starving. And think about if you were literally starving and you were at a restaurant and you were like, I just don't know what to order. I feel like a friend would be like, girl, like, just order something. Like, the answer to not knowing isn't to not eat lunch. They'd be like, order anything. And by the way, you'll learn whether you like it or not. And I actually think that's the exact metaphor. I always tell parents when they're like, what would I even do in an hour? I'm like, you're supposed to not know. If it was so clear. You clearly have access to desire in which case, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place with 99% of women. So you're supposed to not know you're in. Ooh, this is a good circle back. You're in the learning space of figuring out who you are, and you're in the exact place you're supposed to be. It's confusing. And what you're supposed to do when you're in that space is just try anything and after yourself, you could say, rate it. It's like, okay, did I like the hamburger? It was. Oh, I did. Five out of five. I got myself the sandwich. One out of five. And then you'll kind of know. You take the pressure off. I like that walk. Or maybe you're like, I don't even know if I liked it. That's okay. Try it again the next day. And eventually you're gonna get more data. But you can't just wait. You can't. It's like not reading until you know how to read. That's just not. It's not a thing.
- [49:23]
Reshma Sajani
I love that. So, like, midlife learning space.
- [49:25]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yes.
- [49:26]
Reshma Sajani
Is about, like, trying lots of different types of things, rating them, and figuring out kind of what you like. But it's not doing nothing.
- [49:36]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
No, the doing nothing is kind of a sense of, I have to know before I do. No, no, no, no, no. You have to try, and you have to experiment to know. So you can't wait for that certainty, if that makes sense.
- [49:56]
Reshma Sajani
So when you feel this explosive anger, what's my first step?
- [50:01]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
So let me answer that. But I just want to rephrase the question, because I do get asked this a lot. And, like, to me, it's like saying, so when. When I drove. When I drive my car to a cliff, how do I not fall off? I'd be like, well, maybe like, let's try to figure out when you're on the road to the cliff and just, like, exit. I actually talk about the road to rage in this workshop and, like, getting to know your signposts.
- [50:24]
Reshma Sajani
I'm signing up for this workshop.
- [50:25]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah. Oh, my God. No, you need to do it. I know. You're all the member.
- [50:29]
Reshma Sajani
Do it.
- [50:29]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yeah, look it up. Because I think that's actually a powerful thing. It's like when someone says, becky, when you have three kids and one's yelling and one's using a Sharpie on the wall, and the other one is saying, I hate you, what do you do? And I'm like, why would I know? I have no idea what to do. We just Survive the moment and then try to figure out after what was going on and have fewer of those moments in the first place. So what do you do when you hear. When you feel massive rage building away? I'm gonna answer it. But I do think the humor of the situation, hopefully to me, our success at any part in life comes from asking the right questions. And when we feel stuck as a mom, it's not because we don't know the answer. It's always because we need to ask a more empowering and possible question. So a much better question is, can I start to recognize the different patterns that let me know I'm on my road to rage? And then can I find, through experimentation, different things that lead me to exit it? That's a question. I'm like, yes, let's do that. But when you find yourself on the edge, I mean, what I would tell every parent is they, if you know this is you, you should tell your kids in a calm moment. Do you know that just like you, I sometimes have feelings and I just that get so big that they get in my way of using the skills I have to manage those feelings. And if a parent's like, but I don't have those skills, that's okay. Come to us. We can teach them to you. Okay, but say that. And one of the things I'm going to be trying to do is when I have those big feelings, I'm be trying to tell you and take a little break in my room right before. And this is hard because I'm going to really want you to, depending on your age, kid, go over here and play with your Legos. Go over here. And if it is, it could be like, go over here and watch Bluey on your iPad. I don't know. It could be anything. But if you tell a kid before, it's amazing, then in the moment, and I would come up with, like, a code. I'm gonna call it banana. Okay. And we could practice. Okay. And again, people are like, I don't have the time. But this is just about how we use our time. We can either use a little bit of time preparing, or we use hours reacting. It's just a new way to use time. So if you say, okay, okay, banana. What do we do? And I say, banana. You run over there and you build your blocks, and I run as fast as I could freaking run to my room, and I close the door and I scream into a pillow. Or I call Reshma and be like, ah, I'm gonna blow. You know, my lid's Gonna blow. And then you. And then it is like giving your body a rep because it is like sports. It's like someone saying, how do I make a foul throw when the game is on the line and it's the NBA Finals? And if I was like, well, have you ever made a foul throw in practice? And they were like, no. I'd be like, okay, well, we're gonna start by practicing. We're not gonna wait for you to make your first free throw. When the game's on the line in Game 7 of the NBA championship, no one can do that. And I think it's laughable because we do that to ourselves as parents all the time, and we can't expect anyone to be successful there. So I just want people to know through this parenting stage in a way that doesn't have to be so cumbersome, we can actually feel our most powerful. Not in a creepy way, like in the right way. Powerful and confident and self trusting. And in the process of doing that, you start to give that to your kids and that. That feels addictive. And you're never perfect. Of course I yell and I do all the things we all do, but it can. I just want to give people hope. Like, it can feel a lot better.
- [53:55]
Reshma Sajani
You know what? I think this interview really did for me too. It's like, in many ways, by taking a parenting class and becoming a better parent, you're becoming a better person to yourself.
- [54:06]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's it. That is it. It's not even a better parent. I don't. The word better always like, oh, I don't know.
- [54:13]
Reshma Sajani
It's like, I guess it's like.
- [54:17]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
You'Re right.
- [54:17]
Reshma Sajani
It's not like better, but in learning how to parent, right? Because part of and how to parent, you're learning how to be better to yourself. And I do think we all. I will especially say this for myself. I need to learn how to be kind to myself, how to be good to myself, how to love myself.
- [54:34]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Yes.
- [54:35]
Reshma Sajani
And if I can, if that can help me be better, it'd be good to my. My kids too.
- [54:41]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Great. That's right.
- [54:43]
Reshma Sajani
Win, win.
- [54:44]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Like, watching yourself align how you show up with your values is an amazing feeling. That's what it is. I think that's what we really help people do. We close that gap. And that, that's just like the feeling that allows us to fall asleep at night feeling proud of ourselves. Even if our kid had a tantrum in the, in the parking lot. Because we're like, the way I showed up, I feel right about it. I knew my role. I had clarity. And then I always say we give people wins in the moments that used to send them spiraling. And that's, that's power.
- [55:16]
Reshma Sajani
I think that's right. Such a great, this is such a wonderful conversation. And I think just that that point you just made is this is, I think where we beat ourselves up is when our actions don't align to our value.
- [55:27]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's right.
- [55:28]
Reshma Sajani
Just said. And being able to help you reconcile the two is such a gift and a gift to give women in midlife. Because I think that's when it's really like our brains are, you know, we're, we know better.
- [55:41]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's exactly right.
- [55:42]
Reshma Sajani
And we want to show up in the way that we know we can and we want the tools to be able to do that.
- [55:48]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
That's right.
- [55:49]
Reshma Sajani
That's right. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Becky. Thanks. So great.
- [55:54]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
You're the best. Always love talking with you.
- [56:09]
Reshma Sajani
Truly. I can't thank Dr. Becky enough for taking this time with me today. Life changing advice. You can find so much more of her advice but by checking out good inside. There's a website, a podcast, a massive Instagram page. Just go find it and just absorb all of this incredible information. One last thing, thank you so much for listening to my so called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content like me and Dr. Becky talking about making sure we're taking care of ourselves and not just taking care of others. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all the other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com thanks and we'll be back next week. I'm your host Reshma Sajani. Our associate producer is Isaura Acevez and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kurayev. Ivan also composed Arthur theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oha Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova. Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so called Midlife. Wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye. Every caregiving journey is unique. But the isolation, guilt and exhaustion we.
- [58:08]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
All feel, that's universal.
- [58:11]
Reshma Sajani
It's reality. It's life. You know, I wish it could all be happy and joyous, but sometimes it's full of rage. And that is what it is. That's why this show exists, to be a safe place for caregivers to land. Listen to squeezed.
- [58:25]
Dr. Becky Kennedy
Wherever you get your podcasts.