Reshma Sajani (3:47)

Lemonade hey midlifers, just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of My so Called Midlife Ad Free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to an exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Feel Better with David Duchovny, and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show and Apple Podcasts make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. Welcome to My so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. So sex and Midlife. That's a can of worms and we're about to rip it open right now. Lucky for us, we got a really great guide to help us navigate it all. Emily Nagoski is a sex educator and researcher and author of several books including Come as you are and come together. I had a million questions, as I'm sure you do, too. And we're going to get into all of it. Is the sex I'm having normal? What happens when you lose that spark used to have with your partner?

Sponsor/Ad Voice (5:11)

How do you have a conversation with.

Reshma Sajani (5:12)

Your partner if the sex for you isn't that enjoyable anymore? Is my relationship broken if I don't want to have sex with my partner anymore? I'm going to give you a little spoiler to that last question because I think a lot of us midlifers are literally wondering the same thing. And it's a scary thing to even consider. Emily says, look, there's a chance it could be broken, but more likely it means your sexual connection has changed. And as a partnership, you have not adapted to that change. So the good news is, no, your.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (5:43)

Marriage is not broken. You can adapt to that change.

Reshma Sajani (5:47)

So it's natural to not want to be intimate when your boss is stressing you out at work. Your kids got homework and soccer practice and piano lessons. I mean, you got to get dinner on the table every single night. Maybe menopause is throwing you a hormonal curve. I mean, yeah, who's feeling horny after all that? Not me. So that's why this conversation with Emily is so great. She's full of advice and research and resources for all you midlifers who are concerned about the sex you're having or maybe not having. So either way, this is a conversation for you. Let's get into it. Emily, tell me one moment. Last week where you felt your age, where you felt so middle age.

Emily Nagoski (6:34)

What. What was going on last week? I have to look at my actual calendar. Maybe this is the middle aged moment as I'm like, it's Tuesday and I don't remember anything from last week. Oh, I went on vacation last week.

Reshma Sajani (6:50)

How did you forget that?

Emily Nagoski (6:51)

How did I forget that?

Reshma Sajani (6:53)

Yes, how did you.

Emily Nagoski (6:55)

I'm 47 and a lot has happened. Like, we got home on Wednesday. It's been a solid week. But like, many things have happened between now and then. And I think the most middle aged thing that happened to me last week is that I actually got a migraine on the drive to the airport on the ride home. So that was so. It was great. It was just like a couple of days away. But it concluded with a migraine on the plane.

Reshma Sajani (7:24)

Do you know why? So that happens to me? It's like when I go on vacation, my body's like, what, you're resting? Let's get Sick and feel like shit. Like it happens every time.

Emily Nagoski (7:34)

Yeah. So there's a reason why it happens.

Reshma Sajani (7:36)

Tell me.

Emily Nagoski (7:37)

So there's a combination of things. One is, there is such a thing as relaxation induced panic and stress. Because if you're being chased by a lion and you're suddenly like, everything's fine, your body's like, what are you doing? You're being chased by a lion. And so it like causes things to get even worse. But the other thing is that when you finally do, like, if you like are accumulating a lot of sleep debt and you're very stressed out and you're not rested, you finally do get a whole like your first night of vacation, you just get a ton of rest, you pay off a bunch of sleep debt. Your stress system has been suppressing your immune system. Like, we don't have time for you stress of your immune system. Your immune system has been trying to tell you, hey, you're sick. And the way your immune system communicates with you is through symptoms. But when you're stressed, your nervous system is like, I don't have time for you immune system. But when you pay off some of that sleep debt and your stress response goes down, your immune system is like, finally you can hear us go to bed, lie down. And it gives you all the symptoms that your stress response had been suppressing.

Reshma Sajani (8:50)

Wow.

Emily Nagoski (8:51)

So you probably had been sick for a while.

Reshma Sajani (8:54)

Wow. I feel like I've been sick for like 40 years and my body is.

Emily Nagoski (8:56)

Like these, these are the things that I learned when. So I worked at Smith College for eight years.

Reshma Sajani (9:02)

Oh, you did?

Emily Nagoski (9:03)

Commencement speaker. The. One of the things that I. That's. This is one of the things that I learned. Students are asking me, why do I get sick as soon as I get home from a semester? And I was like, that's a really interesting question. I wonder if there's a causal mechanism and. Oh yes, there is.

Reshma Sajani (9:17)

That's so fascinating. That's so fascinating. Well, listen, speaking of lines, let's talk about sex. Sex in midlife. Look, I feel like in our society there's this misconception that women in midlife are either totally uninterested in sex, like their drive is dead, or it's like red hot and they're like sleeping with any young man that they can find. But I want to talk to you about what the reality is, because I think these perceptions sometimes make us feel like shit about our own sex life.

Emily Nagoski (9:49)

Oh yeah. I mean, like that's. It's a perfect parallel for so many of the Things that are true in our lives that we're supposed to. I mean, broadly, we're supposed to be, like, pure virgins or we're supposed to be sluts. Like, you know, like, can't wait to get that other person's tongue in my mouth all the time. And, like, there are people who judge us for being pure virgins who have no interest in sex, and there are people who judge us for being super horny and into sex. So, like, no matter what we do, we are always doing it wrong.

Reshma Sajani (10:20)

Especially when it comes to sex.

Emily Nagoski (10:22)

Especially when it comes to sex. But let's face it, it applies to so many domains. You go to work when you're a. When you're a mother, you're a bad mother. You don't go to work when you're a mother, you're a bad mother. Like, you're always failing, no matter what. So the ultimate wisdom always does come down to, like, you make the best choice you can for yourself, and other people are going to have opinions. And I long for us to live in a world where people feel obliged to keep their opinions about someone else's life to themselves. We don't live in that world. And so in the meantime, we need to, like, build up defenses against other people expressing opinions about our lives.

Reshma Sajani (11:05)

Yeah. So this is a perfect segue. So I want to start this conversation in many ways by talking about what your definition is of normal sex. Like, please define normal sex for our listeners.

Emily Nagoski (11:19)

I will. I wrote it wouldn't into come together specifically because people ask me all the time and they love it. If I can just give them a simple definition. So here you go. Normal sex is any and all sexual contact among consenting peers with where everyone involved is glad to be there, free to leave with no unwanted consequences. And that includes no. Aw, come on. But you said you would. And also, there's no unwanted pain. Normal.

Reshma Sajani (11:48)

Interesting. See, I thought you were gonna tell me it's when you have sex twice a week or twice a month. So it's not about numbers or quantity or quality.

Emily Nagoski (11:59)

Oh, dear God, no. It is. So quality is where we step out of normal and move toward. Like, is your sex life extraordinary? So I have. That's my normal definition. And then my definition of perfect sex is when. So it's all consenting peers glad to be there, free to leave with no unwanted consequences. There's no unwanted pain, and everyone turns toward whatever is happening in the here and now with confidence and joy, a sense of play and compassion. So, for example, if someone would like to get an erection, and an erection is not happening. Everyone turns toward what's happening in the moment with confidence and joy and compassion and a sense of play. Either you can do things that don't involve erections, or there are a bunch of things you can do with a penis that is not erect that you cannot do once that penis is erect. So this is an opportunity that's turning to. That's. That's perfect sex. Not perfect sex is when someone wants an erection and they can't get an erection. And at least one person in that situation, it gets swamped with shame or frustration or feels broken or feels like there's something desperately wrong with themselves or with their partner or with the relationship when no blood flow just is blood flow. And sometimes erections come and go.

Reshma Sajani (13:26)

Great. All right, so now we know what normal sex is. And perfect and perfect sex, two for one. This is great. Okay, so I want to talk about your book, Come as yous Are. Your first book in there. You said that you stopped wanting sex for months at a time.

Emily Nagoski (13:41)

I said that. And come together.

Reshma Sajani (13:43)

Oh, and come together.

Emily Nagoski (13:44)

Yeah.

Reshma Sajani (13:44)

So you tried following advice in your own book, and then you're like, wait a minute here. What's happening?

Emily Nagoski (13:50)

Yeah. So you. You might think that writing a book about sex could be, like, super sexy because you're thinking about sex and writing about sex and reading about sex and talking about sex all the time. But the reality is, I was so stressed by the process of writing. You know what it's like writing. Absolutely exhausting. And at any time I finish writing one, I'm like, I'm never doing that again. Why did I do that to myself? So I was so stressed out that I lost all interest in actually having any of the sex I was writing about. My husband and I were in a really good place for a lot of reasons. Because I'm a sex educator. I am great at communicating about sex. And the sex that we have is really good. I knew if I could just get there, wherever there was, I would be so glad that we had sex. And so I would try to follow my advice. Put my body in the bed and let my skin touch my partner's skin. And instead of my body going, oh, oh, I really like this, I would cry and fall asleep, which is not ideal, but, like, where was my answer? Because I knew that I was going to like it if I could get there. But instead of getting there, I was, like, sobbing in a very, like, you know, fluids dripping out of every orifice in my face kind of way. And it Took the most complex affective neuroscience I have ever crammed into a book for me to figure out what my solution was. Here's the short version. I was really, really, really stressed out. And when you're in that stress state, you're being chased by a lion. Is that a good time to be like, stop pausing and really reveling in pleasure? Not so much, right?

Reshma Sajani (15:36)

Yeah.

Emily Nagoski (15:37)

But when my skin touched my partner's skin, my body was like, oh, wait, I recognize this. I am now with my favorite person on earth. I am safe and I can let go.

Reshma Sajani (15:51)

Yeah.

Emily Nagoski (15:52)

Of this stress. And the crying was my body releasing all of that height tightened stress response that I'd been holding on to. And when I got to the end of that stress response cycle and my body was calm, it was starving for rest. And I fell asleep and I'd wake up and find like a cup of tea on my bedside table and then I'd have a snack and then I'd take a. I'd take a bath. And at the end of all that stuff, I would have. I'd be rested enough and feel peaceful enough to be able to get to a state of mind where when my body touched my partners, then it could interpret that sensation not as like, phew, what a relief. I'm safe now. But is like, oh, oh, sexy. Oh, oh. Now I can interpret this as sexy. Because our brain's ability to interpret any sensation as pleasurable depends on the emotional context in which we experience it.

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Reshma Sajani (20:32)

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Emily Nagoski (23:05)

Yeah, so There are three characteristics of couples who sustain strong sexual connections over the long term.

Reshma Sajani (23:10)

All right, break it down for me.

Emily Nagoski (23:12)

One, they're friends. They admire and trust each other. And this is more controversial than I thought it would be when I wrote it in the book, because it turns out there are a lot of people who struggle with the idea that it matters more that you really like your partner than that you be horny for them.

Reshma Sajani (23:30)

Yep, Yep.

Emily Nagoski (23:31)

But, like, if you don't like them, why would you want to have sex with them? So, one, they're friends. Two, they. This is the one. They prioritize sex. They decide that it matters for their relationship. They figure out that sex really contributes something unique and valuable to their relationship, so they prioritize it. And the tricky thing about prioritizing something is there has to be something that matters less. So what are you willing to remove from your calendar in order to create both the time and the energy, protecting the time and energy that sex requires, and not just the sex itself, but that transition space from your frenetic, everyday exhausted state of mind to hey, sexy lady state of mind.

Reshma Sajani (24:23)

Yeah. And then what's the third?

Emily Nagoski (24:25)

The third characteristic is that they recognize that they've been following other people's opinions, somebody else's rules about how they're supposed to be, like, who they're supposed to be as individuals sexually, who their partner is supposed to be sexually, and what their relationship is supposed to be like, and they decide to stop doing that and really deeply explore what's true for them as an individual. Find out what's really true about their partner when they're not just making assumptions about who their partner is supposed to be and what this connection is like in this season of their lives.

Reshma Sajani (25:02)

So, okay, how do couples get there? Like, how do you start this conversation if it doesn't exist?

Sponsor/Ad Voice (25:07)

Like. Like, I'm sure for a lot of.

Reshma Sajani (25:09)

Couples, they don't have this right. So how do you get there?

Emily Nagoski (25:11)

Yeah. So it can start in so many different ways. Everyone walks a different path. It can start with just one partner deciding that they want to go deep. They want to explore for themselves. They want to find out. And so they start developing, like, a masturbation process practice where they're. And that doesn't even necessarily mean that they're engaging in sexual touch or having orgasms, just that they're exploring what sensations feel like in their bodies because they decide that pleasure matters in their life.

Reshma Sajani (25:42)

But do you have a conversation first with your partner and say, okay, it depends?

Emily Nagoski (25:47)

So some people start with the Relationship. Some people start at an individual path, and they bring that practice to the relationship. Some people start at the relationship and say, like, I want our erotic connection to be everything that it can be. And I'm going to say out loud that I think it can be more than it currently is.

Reshma Sajani (26:09)

Yeah.

Emily Nagoski (26:10)

And there's sort of the main reasons people don't have this conversation. Because the way you create change in a relationship around sexuality is the way you create change around everything. Right. Like, how do you create change around who does the school pickup run? Or, like, taking out the trash? Or, like, where we spend holidays with different family members. Right. Like, you have a conversation about it.

Reshma Sajani (26:33)

Yeah.

Emily Nagoski (26:34)

So the question really is, what is it that's stopping you from having the same kind of conversation about sex that you'd be having about every other thing that you collaborate on as a partnership?

Reshma Sajani (26:44)

Because I think there's a lot of, like, judgment around it, even for yourself. Right. It's like, you don't want to actually admit that maybe what's happening with us is not great. You know, like, maybe you're having sex once every couple months, which, you know, people I know do, and they feel shitty about it, but they don't want to bring it up, because then it's almost like you're acknowledging that something's broken, and then you. There's, like, another thing you have to fix. Do you hear what I'm saying?

Emily Nagoski (27:05)

Yeah. I'm just going to say out loud, for the record, that sex every couple months doesn't mean you're broken.

Reshma Sajani (27:11)

Yeah.

Emily Nagoski (27:11)

If everybody involved is like, that couple of months is like, we have. We spend two hours, like, licking each other and reveling in each other's bodies. And, like, we can't find two hours together more often than every couple of months. But, man, that two hours, sacrosanct is epic.

Reshma Sajani (27:30)

Well, okay, so you're okay with scheduling sex? You don't think that that takes away the desire, the pleasure?

Emily Nagoski (27:36)

Yeah. I'm gonna challenge you every time you say desire. Say pleasure instead.

Reshma Sajani (27:42)

Okay, sorry.

Emily Nagoski (27:42)

Cause I know we're, like. We're, like, stuck in this realm. Everyone is really worried. I call it the pleasure, the desire imperative. This idea that, like, at the beginning of a relationship, it's hot and heavy. Can I. No, you're right. I think that's the.

Reshma Sajani (27:55)

Listen, I think for a lot of people in midlife, the conversation they're having. I married somebody that I was, like, wanted to throw up against the wall was so fricking hot. Like, we had it, and then we had kids and a dog and work and life and da, da, da, da.

Emily Nagoski (28:09)

Right. And you had to repair the bathroom.

Reshma Sajani (28:12)

A lot of times women press the nuclear button. They're like, wait, I don't desire my partner anymore. And they're not thinking, I mean, they're not thinking that there's anything that they can actually do to get more in touch with their own pleasure. Right. Which could change that. And I think that's what you're saying, right?

Emily Nagoski (28:32)

Yeah. Question number one is, if we were having sex, would I like it? And if I wouldn't like it, what kind of sex is worth. This is Peggy Klein Plotz. She's the leader of the Optimal Sexual Experiences Research group Inter in Ottawa. And when she has a couple with differential desire and just by the way, when couples seek sex therapy and it's a heterosexual couple, it's just as likely to be the man as the woman who has low. That's not the story we hear because there's more shame around both a man being the low desire partner and more shame around the woman being the higher desire partner. But once you get into therapy, it's 50, 50. Who's going to be the higher and lower desire partner in a heterosexual relationship. And yeah, if I talk more about heterosexual relationships is because the research has been pretty unambiguous for the last 20 years that non straight couples, LGBTQIA two plus couples, certainly they have their struggles, but they have. Their sex lasts longer, they have more orgasms, they engage in a greater variety of sexual behaviors, they're more likely to kiss during sex, they're more likely to say I love you during sex. They do more oral sex, manual sex, more likely to use sex toys by. They have sex less frequently, but they like the sex more.

Reshma Sajani (29:52)

Yeah.

Emily Nagoski (29:52)

So heterosexual couples are having sex more often, but they like it less. I am worried about the straights, but.

Reshma Sajani (30:01)

I want to ask you something because I think another situation that people find themselves in. What if you're. When you're in a relationship, you used to have a strong sexual connection, but as it goes on, you don't. So when you ask that question, do I still want to have sex? The answer is kind of no, because you actually haven't had good sex in a while. Does that mean the relationship's broken?

Emily Nagoski (30:23)

No, it means your sexual connection has changed and as a partnership, you have not adapted to that change.

Reshma Sajani (30:32)

Tell me more. Has it changed or is it dead?

Emily Nagoski (30:35)

It's. There's a chance that it could be dead. Like, so I use this, this analogy is going to Sound a little cheesy, corny, but this is. This is the one I use because it works. Sexuality is like a garden. On the day you're born, you're given a little plot of rich and fertile soil, and immediately your family of origin and your culture of origin begin to plant ideas about sex itself, gender, bodies, love, safety, pleasure. And by the time you get to adulthood, they have taught you how to tend this garden. And some of us get really lucky. And we have a garden full of beautiful, lush things. All we have to do is weed and harvest, and a lot of us get stuck with some really toxic shit in our garden. We get a lot of body shame and a lot of sexual trauma. And nobody waited until we were old enough to give consent before they planted things like body. Would it be okay with you if I planted this? Like, body shame and the idea that you don't deserve love or pleasure until your body conforms to a culturally constructed. Culturally constructed aspirational beauty ideal. We would all have said no to that given the chance, but we weren't given that chance. And so here's this weed of body shame in our gardens. And it's not fair because we didn't get to choose it. But it is an opportunity for us to go through the garden row by row and make choices about what we want to keep, because some of it's going to be good and what we want to pull and throw on the compost heap to rot. That's for our own individual sexuality. And when we start having relationships, early on in a relationship, you kind of go visit each other's gardens and see if you like what each person has going on. And at a certain point, you begin to cultivate a shared garden where you bring your favorite stuff over from your garden and they bring their favorite stuff over from their garden, and hopefully you're not tracking in the body shame and the sexual shame and the performance demands and the CIS heteropatriarchal standards of performance and compliance. But mostly people are bringing those things in. And so it makes sense that given that lives are complicated, there will be seasons when the garden gets neglected, when you are not doing that, like regular maintenance of pruning and pulling the weeds. And you come back one spring after it's been a couple of winters, and things are looking kind of a mess. And you've got to start thinking, ready to do, put in some effort, because the garden matters to you.

Reshma Sajani (33:13)

Well, can I ask you a question? So I think in the beginning, when you're in a new relationship, you can Be very intentional about the garden. I'm bringing this, you're bringing that, right?

Emily Nagoski (33:21)

Mostly people aren't, but you absolutely can, and I sure do recommend it.

Reshma Sajani (33:25)

Yes, but what if when you're in your midlife and you've been together for a while, I mean, that that garden is like. And you haven't. I don't even know. I don't have a garden. What do people do in the garden? It's like, you know, I haven't pulled out the weeds. You know, I haven't planted new flowers. Like, you know, you're not. The garden has not been taken.

Emily Nagoski (33:41)

It has been neglected. Because it wasn't a priority.

Reshma Sajani (33:44)

Because it wasn't a priority, it didn't.

Emily Nagoski (33:46)

Matter as much as, oh, my gosh, there are so many other things we could be spending our time on, right? Some people have kids to raise. Some people have degrees to finish. Some people have jobs. They have to go to more than one job. Some people have other family members to spend time with and take care of. We have other friends we want to.

Reshma Sajani (34:02)

So many. I mean, so many things can go wrong. But how do you peak again?

Emily Nagoski (34:07)

You decide that it matters, you make it a priority. And this. So suppose, like, you know, when you were in college, you ran track and you try to keep up some jogging as you get into your 20s and 30s, but then your kids get to a certain age, and mostly you're just, like, driving them from place to place to place to place in between going to work and you stop running, and you're like, you know what? I want to come back to my running practice because I know that it's good for me, it is important, and so I'm going to create time for it. It. How do you get back to it? Gradually recognizing that your body is different now from it was before. And that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your body. Your body is your beautiful, amazing, glorious, spectacular body that it always was and always will be. Just as every tree is and always will be a glorious and spectacular natural object. And you turn toward it with kindness and compassion, and you ask for help from your partner.

Reshma Sajani (35:22)

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Reshma Sajani (38:16)

This is such a common experience for.

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Reshma Sajani (38:29)

To tell you about another podcast you should check out.

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Each episode Ray speaks with a different.

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Reshma Sajani (41:19)

So how do you navigate these changes? Because I think, and also I'm thinking too about people have sensitivity about this subject.

Emily Nagoski (41:27)

Yeah.

Reshma Sajani (41:27)

Like you said, a lot of shame, a lot of judgment. We carry a lot of baggage here, right? So like how you seem to navigate these conversations with one another in these relationships seem to really matter because I think sometimes, you know, it's kind of. We often do this in other relationships with we avoid. So like sometimes I think people avoid maybe what's going on sexually in their own relationship and they just have an affair. Right. It's almost easier to leave. Right. And do something or try something new over there than to kind of fix it here. Talk to me about that.

Emily Nagoski (42:03)

In particular, if you think that desire is the thing that matters instead of pleasure. And if you're attracted to somebody and you're. If you're in a monogamous relationship and you're attracted to somebody that is not your primary partner, you're like, oh, this is what it felt like at the beginning of my relationship. This must be where I'm supposed to be instead of in this place where I no longer have this like immediate, easy desire response. But if you put pleasure at the center of your definition of sexual well being, you'll recognize that you can collaborate with this partner to create pleasure that matters so much more than just the hot and heavy. We really want each other. A lot of the we really want each other is motivated by the we shouldn't. No, but we shouldn't. One of the cliches in sex therapy, actually, my very. So I trained as a sex therapist, realized halfway through that I do not have the magical physical thing to be a therapist and go tell me what that was like for you. I don't have that. But my very first clients that I ever worked with in my first ever clinical internship, they hadn't had sex for a couple of decades. This is a couple in their late 60s. And my clinical partner and I standard rules of the road for Sex therapy. We're going to ask you not to have sex while we're assigning you homework assignments. They come back the second week, they had sex twice specifically because we told them not to.

Reshma Sajani (43:39)

It just.

Emily Nagoski (43:39)

It's called the ironic process. It activates something when there's something that you're not supposed to do. It increases your brain's fixation on it. So a lot of our desire for partners who are forbidden to us is motivated by the fact that they're forbidden. And as soon as you make them not forbidden, it goes away.

Reshma Sajani (43:58)

It goes away.

Emily Nagoski (44:00)

So. So there's two primary barriers when people want to have a conversation about sex. You want a conversation about sex. Be an invitation to greater intimacy and exploration. And people are very afraid either that they're going to say something about what they want or, like, and their partner is going to be shocked and horrified, or they're accidentally going to say something that hurts their partner's feelings. Both of which would turn this conversation that we want to be an invitation to closeness into just, like, creating even greater distance. So I. So one recommendation, obviously, is, like, have that conversation with a sex therapist. I did an event with Ian Kerner, sex therapist in New York, and he was like, it only takes two or three sessions. This is not like lying on the couch for every twice a week for years with, like, Freud. This is just like being coached in these skills that, of course, you don't have these skills. Where were you ever gonna learn these skills? You'll learn it from somebody who's an example.

Reshma Sajani (45:04)

So your recommendation is like, go to a sex therapist to kind of have some of these hard conversations that you might feel uncomfortable.

Emily Nagoski (45:10)

In particular, if you have not liked the sex for a while, that's an uncomfortable conversation for anyone. If it's not that you've been, like, faking orgasm for 10 years, for example, which is a real example, but there's just something like, you're in the early stages of things not being the way you would like them to be. And you're like, I think we can do this without a therapist. Have a conversation about having a conversation about sex. Talk about what? Because, like, if you're good at solving other problems together, chances are you can find a way to solve this problem together if you recognize what the barriers are. So, like, I would love this to be all the things it can be. I'm worried that I'm going to say something that's going to accidentally hurt your feelings. I really don't want to hurt your feelings because I want us to Be closer. Worried that if I say something about what I want or, like, it's going to horrify you?

Reshma Sajani (46:08)

Yeah.

Emily Nagoski (46:09)

So, like, are there ground rules we can set that, like, if I say something that feels uncomfortable to you, you'll tell me. You'll be really clear with me, like, that kind of thing.

Reshma Sajani (46:21)

I think that's really helpful to know that those are kind of the two things I want to ask you about. Menopause.

Emily Nagoski (46:25)

Yeah.

Reshma Sajani (46:26)

Before we go, I. I feel like there's this myth, right, that like, when you get into perimenopause, it affects your libido. And I think that's not true, according to you. Tell me.

Emily Nagoski (46:39)

So there's nothing hormonal like, researchers have been looking like, is there a hormonal correlate that goes with change in desire around perimenopause and menopause? And they cannot find anything?

Reshma Sajani (46:54)

It is like a lie that your libido drops the minute that you start.

Emily Nagoski (46:58)

It is a lie that there's a hormonal cause to any changes you may experience around sexual desire. That being said, your body changes a whole bunch in this time of your life. Your well being diminishes. Sleep challenges are extraordinarily common, which raises your stress levels. Your body shape and energy levels are changing, and your relationship with your body, therefore, is changing. And body image stuff is one of those things that hits the brakes. If when your partner touches your belly, you're like, oh, I love my belly and I love my partner and I love being touched, that's great. But if your partner touches your belly and you're like, oh, I fucking hate my belly, it's gonna hit the brakes, Right. So it is more about the changes that are happening and how it influences our responsiveness. It also, like, our relationships are undergoing an enormous amount of changes at this phase in our lives for a lot of people. So how you feel about your partner? One of the women I interviewed for the book was talking. I was. I was talking about the patriarchy, and she was like, how. But Emily Perimenopause. I spent all these years doing everything he needed me to do for his career. And now I want him to be there for me so that I can do my things. How am I supposed to want sex when I have all this. This rage? Answer, you are not. You are not. If you have a lot of rage with your partner, that is not a time when it's going to be easy for you to get to the lust space. And that is not a problem caused by perimenopause that's a problem caused by the patriarchy.

Reshma Sajani (48:39)

So I know that you've gotten a lot of. You, You've talked about how, like, in midlife perimenopause, you've gotten a lot of relief from hormone therapy.

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Tell me about that.

Emily Nagoski (48:47)

Oh, yeah. So whereas there is no particular hormone situation that causes changes in desire. For example, changes in progesterone can be associated with changes in sleep patterns. So adding progesterone can improve the sleep situation. For some people, the reduction in estrogen can cause a thinning of the lining of the vagina and the whole genital urinary situation. And so adding estradiol, for example. Oh, estradiol. Because I am the person that I am. My. My obgyns talk to me differently than they do to other people. So a couple of years ago, my obgyn was like, you're experiencing your. Your vaginal rugi are really flat. For 45 years old, your vaginal rugi are really flat. I'm gonna recommend I prescribe you some vaginal estradiol to fix that situation. And she did. And I had not even realized how much discomfort I was experiencing with intercourse until I healed. Until I like, strengthened the lining of my vagina. Oh, thank you. Vaginal estradiol.

Reshma Sajani (49:58)

Wow.

Emily Nagoski (49:59)

Your mileage may vary. Everyone's body is different. For some people, like patch, like, systemic estrogen is a better fit. But for me.

Reshma Sajani (50:07)

But the whole point is, is like, go have a conversation and don't.

Emily Nagoski (50:10)

If you're experiencing pain in particular, there are medical interventions that can help with the tissue issue.

Reshma Sajani (50:17)

Loving. Okay, so to close, you talk a lot about the importance of kindness, compassion, and play.

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Reshma Sajani (50:28)

I want more play in my life. What is the. What's the baby step that I have to take to live a more kinder, compassionate, playful life?

Emily Nagoski (50:38)

I mean, an actual baby step would just be like, listen to a bunch of sex positive podcasts, like expose yourself to media that over and over grants you permission to experience pleasure, joy, rest, play. Because until you believe that it truly is acceptable that you do deserve pleasure, joy, rest, play, you're not going to be able to eliminate the obstacles in your life that are preventing you from accessing those things that are your birthright by virtue of living in a human body.

Reshma Sajani (51:16)

So tell me what a good media diet is for a sex positive person. Like, what's the podcast? What's the book? What are the things?

Emily Nagoski (51:23)

Well, my books obviously, of course, are going to be very helpful to you. I follow a variety of sex podcasts because, of course, I do. Speaking of Sex by the Pleasure Mechanics is probably my very favorite. And if you're, if you're not ready to go to something that is that sexually explicit, there's a wonderful one called Sounds Fake but okay that is actually it's centered around asexual people, but that creates a spectacular platform for exploring a wide range of sexual experiences. There's also if disability. So I'm disabled with COVID and it's it sucks a lot and I've had to like shift around my relationship with my body as a result of it and confront a bunch of internalized dis ableism. So Disability After Dark by Andrew, hosted by Andrew Girza, is another one that I follow.

Reshma Sajani (52:21)

Amazing Emily. This is such a profound conversation. Thank you so much for your time and for educating me and our listeners and making me laugh.

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Thank you.

Emily Nagoski (52:30)

Oh, I'm so glad. Thank you. My pleasure.

Reshma Sajani (52:38)

Thank you so much to Emily Nagoski for talking with me today. Her latest book is called Come the Science and Art of Creating Lasting Sexual Connections. One last thing, thank you so much for listening to my so called Midlife. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like even more from my conversation with Emily where she gets into why she doesn't.

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Reshma Sajani (53:11)

Have sex and her definition of normal sex. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app that's lemonadapremium.com. don't miss out. Thanks and we'll be back next week. I'm your host Reshma Sajani. Our associate producer is Isara Acevez and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kulraev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oha Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review. Review and let us know how you're doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so called Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye. Foreign.

Julia Louis Dreyfus (54:41)

Hi there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. This fall my podcast Wiser Than Me is back for season three with even more wisdom straight from some legendary old ladies. These chickadees have a lot to teach us. Every word is a lesson in living unapologetically and focusing on the stuff that really matters. From Lemonada Media Wiser Than Me Season 3 out now. Find it wherever you get your podcast. Subscribe to Lemonada Premium in the Apple Podcast app and listen to every episode of season three ad free.

Reshma Sajani (55:20)

A 15 year old girl who chewed through a rope to escape a serial killer.

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Emily Nagoski (55:28)

On the rope in my mouth.

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He's been convicted of murdering two young women but suspected of many more.

Reshma Sajani (55:35)

Maybe there's another one in that area.

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And now new leads that could solve these cold cases. They could be a victim that we have no idea he killed. Stolen Voices of Dole Valley breaks the silence on August 19th. Follow us now so you don't miss an episode.