← My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
The Marathon Mindset on Life and Rejection with Phoebe Robinson
00:44:13
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- [00:00]
Sarah
The first 100 days of a new presidential administration have the potential to be the most impactful.
- [00:05]
Beth
Campaign promises and concepts of plans begin to take shape and become reality.
- [00:09]
Sarah
I'm Sarah.
- [00:10]
Phoebe Robinson
And I'm Beth.
- [00:11]
Sarah
Together we host Pantsu Politics, a podcast where we take a different approach to the news.
- [00:15]
Beth
Join us for this different approach where we ask questions, resist hot takes, and have fun no matter what the world serves up.
- [00:20]
Sarah
We'll get you through the first 100 days and beyond the new Trump administration. Stay informed without all the anxiety.
- [00:26]
Beth
Join us for new episodes every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:30]
David Tennant
Hi, Georgia.
- [00:31]
Beth
Hi, David. What do you think the world needs more of?
- [00:35]
David Tennant
Well, the world always needs more podcasts.
- [00:38]
Beth
Didn't you used to have a podcast?
- [00:39]
David Tennant
Not only did I used to have a podcast, Georgia, it's coming back. David Tennant does a podcast with season three. It's coming at you.
- [00:46]
Beth
Okay, and who are your guests?
- [00:48]
David Tennant
Who are my guests? What about Russell T. Davis? What about Jamila Jamil? What about Stanley the Tooch Tucci?
- [00:54]
Beth
So it's really just you hanging out with your mates then? Yeah.
- [00:57]
David Tennant
Come join me. David Tennant does a podcast with. Bye.
- [01:03]
Beth
Lemonade.
- [01:11]
Reshma Sajani
Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to.
- [01:15]
Phoebe Robinson
Stop just getting through it and start actually living it.
- [01:18]
Reshma Sajani
I'm Reshma Sajani. So have you ever done something that's so different or so impulsive that you know you're gonna fail, but you still go for it? I know I have. Sometimes something overcomes you and you just know you gotta do it regardless of the odds. The crazy thing is the thing that you do that you didn't know if you wanted to do, it becomes the best experience of your Life. So in 2007, I signed up for my very first marathon. I was not a runner. I had never run more than like, maybe five miles before. But I was going through a really, really, really hard breakup. And I knew that I needed a change and that I had to learn again how to live life. For me, that marathon that I ran was one of the most brutal and equally amazing experiences I've ever had in my life. And so I wanted to talk to someone who knew what that was like, how running can just, like, push you forward in such incredibly gratifying ways. The amazing Phoebe Robinson joins us today to talk about her journey with marathon running and how she's come to accept failure as a part of life. Ah, my mantra. She is a comedian, a writer, an actress, and honestly, just an all around badass. And get this she, too, found herself picking up her running shoes after a breakup. She shares how running has just been crucial to learning, how to push past the discomfort and to not feel as the road to running teaches all of us. Sometimes even the best plans don't always work out. So just don't give up. So, as someone who's faced a lot of failure in their life and career, I knew exactly what she was talking about. Sometimes you just gotta keep running. Literally, my experience running that first marathon was just brutal. And you wanna know what? It was also beautiful. I never lived in a moment like that where I was so present. Was I in pain? Yeah. Do I regret it? Never. So right after I finished the marathon, I was so moved by the experience that I wrote this email to all my friends and loved ones who supported me and cheered me on. And I just recently found it as I was preparing to interview Phoebe. And I just want to read a section of it to you because it just. It still is so relevant for the way I live my life. Here it goes. In the weirdest way, the race was a true reflection of life. The first 16 miles was a breeze. Listening to the crowds. JT who I love Bollywood. Just making up dances in my head as I ran, enjoying the runaround neighborhoods in New York City and. And seeing parts of the city I had never seen before. And when I turned onto First Avenue, I felt like I was really the fastest runner in the whole entire world. Faster than any Olympian ever lived. And in my head, I was like, wow, this is so easy. What is all the fuss about? And then mile 17, I hit a wall out of nowhere, and everything went into slow motion. Those last nine miles were so, so painful. I felt like they would never end. Everything that could go wrong went wrong at that point. My feet were bleeding. The half a contact that was stuck in my eye from the night before felt like a piece of glass. My stomach started cramping and. And my lower back felt like I had a knife stuck in it. The only thing I wanted to do was walk or quit. But at mile 17, I realized that it was the first time in a while that I was living in the moment. And as most of you know, it is so hard for me to live in the moment. It is what I strive to do, but never can. But Starting at mile 17, I was more present in that moment in my life than I have ever been. And I knew I couldn't walk or quit, because if I did, every time for the rest of my life that I felt like walking or quitting, I Would. I knew if I got through the pain, then for the rest of my life's journey, I could get through anything. So now I know whenever I feel defeated or disenchanted, I can remember how I felt at mile six seventeen. You know what's so funny? Midlifers. I sent that email to my friends in 2007. And every time since then, when I'm going through a really hard time or a failure, like the races I've run or the miscarriages I've had, one of my friends sends me back that email. It's like this reminder like. Like I asked about always remembering mile 17 and that I didn't walk or quit. So, you know, while it doesn't have to be a New York City marathon, I hope all of you have a mile 17 experience. It will change your whole life in that moment and for the rest of your life. So now my conversation with the amazing Phoebe Robinson. Hey, Phoebe. Hi.
- [06:56]
Phoebe Robinson
So on this show, we like to talk about midlife mindset and how it varies, like, for everyone. Like, some people are like, yeah, this is the best time of my life. Getting older rocks. And some people are like, not so much. So where do you land?
- [07:12]
Beth
I. So I am new to the 40s club. I've been here for six months.
- [07:19]
Phoebe Robinson
Oh, you real new?
- [07:20]
Beth
I'm real new. I'm fresh. Fresh, baby. Yeah. But I'm really enjoying it on the whole, like, yes. Is the world a disaster? 100. But I think I was thinking this last night as I was. I finished eating dinner and was doing dishes at like 7:30pm Like, I was truly adulting. I was like, I feel like a fully formed adult now where everything is, like, clicking into place. Like the career stuff, making time for friends. Like, I was like the. The takeout queen for the longest time. And I'm like, girl, just, like, order. And like, that could be a way you can give back to yourself and be creative. So now I'm like, cooking all the time. And so I'm just feeling. For me, I feel like this is the most I've ever liked myself. I'm really getting to know myself in a way. And so I feel as though I've been, I don't know, blessed, lucky, whatever. You have it, that I just have this mindset that, like, 40 to me feels like, okay, this is like halftime. And so how do I want the next knock on wood 40 years and beyond to look like? And so I. I don't know. I just am, like, I feel like I'm coming out the locker Room. And it's third quarter, I'm like, all right, let's go on a run. You know, like, it just feels good.
- [08:39]
Phoebe Robinson
That's amazing.
- [08:39]
Beth
Yeah.
- [08:40]
Phoebe Robinson
Can I ask you something? Because, like, you've proven yourself. You've done all the things that, like, you've checked the boxes, and now you're kind of living life for you. So when you feel like, do you think that you feel this way because of age or because of what you've already accomplished?
- [08:56]
Beth
It's probably a mix of both. Right? You know, like, you get to a certain age and you're just sort of like, I can keep, you know, beating myself up, or I could keep being neurotic about X, Y, Z. Or I can have, you know, my. My type A, like, hustle mentality. But I just feel like in every person's life, you have these different versions of yourself. I think they say, like, every seven years, you kind of essentially become a new person.
- [09:26]
Phoebe Robinson
Interesting.
- [09:26]
Beth
Yeah. I mean, that's my life coach told me, and so I believe it.
- [09:31]
Phoebe Robinson
Listen, I believe everything that my life coach Ragada says to me, too.
- [09:34]
Reshma Sajani
So I hear Whitney Howard, love ya.
- [09:38]
Beth
But so I think that I. I think I feel that way because the great things that I've picked up have allowed me to sort of shed some of the bad habits I developed in order to get to the place that I'm at, and I no longer need those things. So now it's just a different. Like, I just have it more clarity about certain things that I didn't have before.
- [10:02]
Phoebe Robinson
God, I love what you just. Can you give me an example of something like that that you've shed that you needed to have? Because I think what was so powerful, there were things that you or habits that you got to get to where you're at, and now that you got them, you don't need that habit anymore. Like, what's an example of that?
- [10:18]
Beth
Yeah, I mean, this was, like, one of the things I worked on when I started therapy in 2020. Dr. Johnson. Love ya. And she. We were just talking one day because I. I wanted to go because my. My boyfriend at the time was just like, you know, you really. Like, I was always a workaholic, but he was like, you really take the wins and the losses, like, they just become so big in your life. And I was like, there is some clarity that. Because once Covet happened and, like, I couldn't go shoot my special. I couldn't go work on this TV show. Like, all these things, like, everything came to a halt. I was a little Bit like, what do I do? Like, trying to find busy work. And so, you know, I was just talking to my therapist in one of the sessions and she was just like, you have poor girl brain. Because I came out of massive debt. Like, I had like, I don't know, $50,000 of student loans and like $60,000 of like, credit card debt. And so I, like, finally was able to pay off the six figure debt. And she's like, you're still living your life and hustling and having to feel like you need to take on five jobs at once. And like, you can't say no to anything because, like, what if the well runs dry and there's no more money? So I just was so, so, like, I couldn't trust the fact that the work got me to the place that I wanted it to get me at and I was still operating, like, well, I don't know, the shoe could have dropped tomorrow. She's like, it's not, it's not. So she's like, just let go. You don't need. You need to hustle to get that debt and like, to get to this, this stage of your career, but you don't need to do that anymore. So, like, figure out what the are the things that you do need to do for you to maintain the life that you want to have.
- [12:00]
Reshma Sajani
That's so powerful.
- [12:01]
Phoebe Robinson
So, like, you're letting go of poor girl brain that served you in your 30s. Like, for me, I always. The thing I struggle with is rejection. So, like, you know, I lost my race when I was, you know, 30 in 2010.
- [12:14]
Reshma Sajani
And I was like an athlete, you know, the athlete that doesn't get picked.
- [12:18]
Phoebe Robinson
For like, the draft. And they're like, oh, I'm gonna show you I'm great. I'm gonna show you. And that's how I lived all of building girls who code. All of my 30s. I went to every speech, talked at everything, got on every hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle. Hard because I was trying to prove myself to myself, right? And it's funny, I think, you know, when I turned in my mid-40s and I started building moms first, I. I was like, oh, I got nothing to prove. And that chip started coming off my shoulder now. Now she's not totally gone. Yeah, you know, she's not totally gone.
- [12:57]
Beth
And she won't be. And that's okay. It's good to have some of that because look at what you've done and look at the impact you have because of that part of you. Sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to say that about you.
- [13:08]
Phoebe Robinson
No, no, no, no. I appreciate you weren't interrupting at all. I appreciate that. I also think sometimes it's good to have a reminder of what served you to get here. Like, it's one of the things that I sometimes fear about, like, intensive therapy, because I'm like, I got all these things, I mean, that make this function, and I'm not sure I want to break them down, even though I know I need to break them down.
- [13:29]
Beth
Right.
- [13:29]
Phoebe Robinson
Yeah. Can I ask you a question, though? As you're turning 40, do you have a list of, like, goals and insights and things you're like, I want to accomplish in the next 10 years?
- [13:39]
Beth
Yeah, I definitely have, like, my goals and, you know, I'm a firm believer in love. And so I, like, I want to. I want to find my soulmate. That's like, my goal. I want to have, you know, the various markers of career success, whether it's like winning an Emmy for writing or what have you, those kinds of things. But then there's other things where I feel like I've really done a great job of reprioritizing my family and my friends in my life because I was just. In the past, I was just missing everything. I was missing baby showers and weddings and, you know, mom, dad, I gotta dip out of vacation early to go do a thing or I'm not gonna come home at this time. And so I really was just sort of like, unless it's like, you know, Barack Obama is, like, calling me up, there is no reason to sacrifice the specialness of family and friends for what may be a career gain. You know what I mean? And I still love my career. It's not that I don't. I just feel like I really want to have a whole and, like, complete life, which I think would be amazing. And. And then fitness. Like, I got into marathon running and.
- [14:54]
Phoebe Robinson
Oh, we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about it.
- [14:57]
Beth
Yes.
- [14:58]
Reshma Sajani
So, you know, so much of the.
- [15:00]
Phoebe Robinson
Content I feel like I get in day to day is, like, about health, right. And that, like, as we get older, we got to focus on our health. Right. And that means, like, getting enough fiber. I want my Michelle Obama arms. Like, what was your fitness routine before you started running?
- [15:14]
Beth
It was. It was pretty inconsistent, I much must say. I think part of it, it was just because I was constantly like, hey, you live in New York. You're walking around everywhere. So I know that sounds obnoxious, but truly, if you're just walking everywhere.
- [15:28]
Phoebe Robinson
It's true. My aura tells me that like you're.
- [15:31]
Beth
Yeah, especially like when I have the, like my. I was working, you know, like an executive assistant at various places. Like I would like leave work and I'm a walk 2 miles and then go to like my stand up show and I'll be like, well, I just walked two miles. So like, you know what I mean? Like that counts as whatever. And so I think because everything, you know, I don't want to make a blanket statement about youth, but I think when you are in your 20s and your 30s, you it's just not a top of mind. Like I don't remember any of us ever talking about hip mobility when we were 31, you know what I mean? And so then after I broke up with my ex in 2022, I just sort of felt like, like I would. Like when we were dating, there were moments where I was like, oh, we'll be cute together, cause we can work out together. And like he would do it with me for a couple weeks and then like would abandon it. And by the end of the relationship I felt like I was holding myself back in order to stay in the relationship, you know what I mean? Like, whether it's like dimming my light cause my career was going well or just like what have you. And so coming out of that in 2022, I was just sort of like, well okay, let's get to know this new Phoebe. What do you want to do? And I was just like, you know, I like seeing the people around Prossick park working out. Like I kind of want to do that. And so February of 2023, I was like, maybe I'll just like try and run. Maybe I'll do that. And I've tried the past and it was horrible. And I would get shin splints and I was like, oh, running is bad. And so I literally through peloton and like Nike Run club, I was doing like these like 20 minute walk runs. Like that's how I started because like running more than like a minute, I was like, oh my God. And it just slowly built from there. Like I really, really. I started at ground level at what?
- [17:27]
Reshma Sajani
How old were you?
- [17:28]
Beth
I was 30. 38. 38, wow. Yeah.
- [17:32]
Phoebe Robinson
So I started running. I ran my first marathon because. A boy too, but different. Like I had just gotten out of a brutal breakup. Right. Like I was living with a guy, the whole thing. Yeah, I was having a hard time getting out of bed and so I signed up for the marathon because I love like when you do that, they give you that.
- [17:49]
Beth
Wait, wait, so you just signed up for a marathon?
- [17:52]
Phoebe Robinson
Well, I unlike you. So I did do some cross country when I was like little. Like I ran, but I didn't run run. But what I needed was you remember when you sign up for marathon, they.
- [18:00]
Reshma Sajani
Give you that little sheet that says.
- [18:02]
Phoebe Robinson
This is what on Monday you run this, on Wednesday you rent.
- [18:05]
Beth
Right.
- [18:06]
Phoebe Robinson
So I needed that in my life at that point. Cause I needed some, some structure and I would like run by his house, you know what I mean? Like at every run. I know that sounds like. Now I sound like a stalker. I hope you like anyway. But it sounded like a good idea, you know what I mean? Then as like a way to be.
- [18:23]
Beth
Like, ah, I'm over it.
- [18:25]
Phoebe Robinson
Like, see, I see you, but I don't see you. And I'm good. But that's why I started running. And it is amazing. My husband now, who's really my one true love, if Case Nahal, you were wondering and talking about my other breakup. You started running two years ago. You've really fallen in love because you've.
- [18:43]
Reshma Sajani
Gone across the world a marathons.
- [18:46]
Beth
Yeah, yeah. I've done Boston and New York and I'm gearing up to do Tokyo.
- [18:52]
Reshma Sajani
Wow.
- [18:52]
Beth
Which is wild. I've never been in Japan. I'm so excited. I am sort of like it just a. It's a great way to see a city like even living in. I've been living in New York since I was 17, going on 18. And when I ran the New York City Marathon last year, I was sort of like, oh my God, I've never seen New York like this.
- [19:13]
Phoebe Robinson
Yeah, that's how I felt when I ran the marathon. It's wild.
- [19:16]
Beth
It's so cool. And it's just like, you know, when you get off the Queensborough Bridge and then there's like the wall of sound and everyone cheering, you're just like, oh my God, the adrenaline. But yeah, it's really been marathon running. I think what I will admit about myself is that I do think I like there to be just a little bit of torture in things. Like a little.
- [19:39]
Reshma Sajani
A little bit of pain.
- [19:40]
Beth
Yeah.
- [19:40]
Reshma Sajani
A little bit. The bloody feet.
- [19:41]
Phoebe Robinson
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:42]
Beth
Because as you know, training for a marathon, like, you can have those weeks where you're like, yes, I'm vibe is amazing. Then you have weeks where you're like, this is ass. And I do not want to do this. And this is so annoying. But I think it's always just a great mental challenge. And it's like, if someone would've told me at 40, I would be on my third marathon, I'd be like, what are you talking about? Yeah, I'm surprising myself. It's cool.
- [20:09]
Reshma Sajani
What is it that running is giving.
- [20:11]
Phoebe Robinson
You that you weren't getting before?
- [20:15]
Beth
As someone who is sensitive, rejection is something I've always sort of struggled with because I would internalize it as, like, oh, you didn't do this, or you weren't that, or you messed this up. And so I would always, like, whether it was, like, work or dating, I would just always, like, really take it as an indictment of something that I lack as a person. And I feel like when you're running, especially once you get to marathon training stage, like, you're like, once you're running a marathon, you are going to hit a wall. You are going to hit this moment where you're like, this feels, like, impossible, and you have to get through it Anyway. So before the race, I got shin splints. And so then I was trying to recover enough so I, like, didn't run for, like, two and a half weeks. And so, like, my shin was like. I was like, it's like 90%. I was like, I could do this race. And then I got to, like, mile 17, and my right leg, it was like my ankle. And then I kept running, and then, like, my calf and then my right hamstring started to fail me. And so I was starting to panic, and I was texting my friend. She's a great Sean. She's a great, great marathon runner. And I was like, I'm freaking out. Like, I had this whole plan. I was going to hit my goal time. I was doing it. It was going my way. And she goes, I have run New York in pain. I know what you're going through. Forget everything. You just have to finish. And that was just such a great. I think that's the thing about running. It's like, you just have to finish. That's it. And I think that's a great metaphor for life, is like, it just means, like, don't give up on yourself, because you know why it didn't go your way. And you could have the best plans, and most of the time, the plans will not go your way. Just don't give up.
- [22:10]
Reshma Sajani
I love it.
- [22:11]
Phoebe Robinson
I mean, I have a mile 17, too. And I wrote, like, an email to myself, and I go back and I read it because it is like, anytime I feel like I am, like, I can't do it. I'm too tired. I'm Too broken. I'm too exhausted. I remember that mile 17 and you keep running and that's what you do. And then like, that's what you do in life. I mean, so has that then helped deal with rejection? Like, has. Have you had like a mindset change?
- [22:43]
Beth
I think running and I started meditating this year because I just was like, you know, my part, one of the things I was talking about with my therapist, like over the years is I've just been like, oh, I'm such a, like, emotional person. It doesn't mean that I'm like, erratic. That's not how I mean it. It just means I was like, I just feel everything deeply and intensely. And I go, this is really. I was like, I kind of just wish I wasn't like this. And she goes, that's not what it's about. She's like, you are an emotional person. And she's like, that's fine. So it's just about like, don't beat yourself up by being like, oh, I should be stoic. I should be this. She's like, embrace like who you are and find ways in which it could be more manageable. Because, you know, I'm like a classic overthinker. And anxiety.
- [23:31]
Phoebe Robinson
Yes.
- [23:32]
Beth
And so I was just like, let me just give this meditation thing a shot. Let's just see what's up. And so I've been doing it and I've noticed that, like, it's just improved the way that I fall asleep at night. I just fall asleep better. But all that is to say that I just really. I think the meditation, the running have sort of helped me be like, you are always going to be a person who feels everything deeply. That is just who you're going to be. So embrace that and learn how to manage it and have it work for you instead of like, you know, if something doesn't happen that I want to happen career wise, don't let it break me for like a week.
- [24:25]
Reshma Sajani
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- [28:46]
Phoebe Robinson
I do want to real quickly go through your bio because you've accomplished a lot. And it started with two dope queens, right?
- [28:53]
Reshma Sajani
Your.
- [28:53]
Phoebe Robinson
Your comedy podcast with. With Jessica Williams. You weren't even, like, into stand up comedy. It just kind of all happened.
- [29:00]
Beth
Tell.
- [29:00]
Phoebe Robinson
Tell me about that a little bit.
- [29:01]
Beth
Yeah, I, you know, my thing. I thought I was gonna write, like, serious movies. Like, I thought that that was, like, what I was gonna do. Like, I remember I watched, like, American Beauty and I was like, this is so profound. Like, I thought I was good. I love that do stuff. I know a little innocent fees. And, you know, I came here and I studied writing at Pride Institute, which is great. And then they had like, an informal improv team. So I would, like, do that because I was always sort of the funny. I wasn't a class clown. I had, like, self respect, but I was always like, kind of, you know, like the funny one in high school. And so after that, I went and worked at a couple of film companies. I was like, I think I really Just want to be a writer, producer. So I'll, like, work my way up the, you know, executive assistant chain, and you become, like, a manager and do all, like, all these other things. And I just was like, you know, I kind of quickly realized I didn't like it. And I was like. I was, like, maybe 23, and I just. There was always something in my stomach that was like, I don't really love just, like, being in an office and this sort of corporate life of trying to work up the corporate ladder. And a friend of mine, Lindsey Neuis, she wanted to take a standup class at Caroline's, and this was 2008. And I was just like, that's dumb. Like, what is it? Like, I knew what stand up was because, you know, Chris Rock and, you know, George Carlin Pryor, Wanda Sykes, you know, all the. Jeanine Garofalo, all the greats. But I just was sort of like, why would anyone do that? Like, what is the point? And so she was like, but you hate your job, so, like, this will be a fun distraction. That's right.
- [30:43]
Phoebe Robinson
Right.
- [30:44]
Beth
Yeah. Yeah. I was like, okay, you don't have to drag me, but, yes, I do hate my job. And then I took the class. So the first week we went and we saw Daryl Hammond, who was on snl. He just did, like, an hour, and it was so funny. And I was like, oh, this is cool.
- [30:59]
Phoebe Robinson
And are you thinking, like, when you're watching him, like, this is cool. I can do this?
- [31:04]
Beth
Not necessarily like, oh, I could do this. I was just like, oh. Like, I get.
- [31:08]
Reshma Sajani
Like.
- [31:08]
Beth
I get the magic of it. You know what I mean?
- [31:11]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [31:11]
Beth
Because I think it's. When you watch specials at home, like, it's super fun, but, like, when you're in the room where this person is, like, changing the chemistry of the room and making people laugh, you're like, I get it. And so our homework assignment was to write three minutes of material. And we were all freaking out. Like, three minutes. How are we gonna talk and be funny for three minutes? And so we did it. And then we came into, like, this, our class. And the second I touched the microphone, I was like, okay, I think I should be doing this. Like, I hadn't even said a word yet. So how did you know?
- [31:43]
Phoebe Robinson
What was that feeling?
- [31:44]
Beth
I just had a feeling. My body, it just felt correct. Like, when I touched it, it was just like, yes. You know what I mean?
- [31:51]
Phoebe Robinson
This is home.
- [31:52]
Beth
Yeah. Yeah. And so I was like, all right. And then. So this was July 2008, October 2008. The indie film company Picture House, I was working at, it got shut down. And I was like, this is a sign from the universe.
- [32:05]
Phoebe Robinson
Right?
- [32:06]
Beth
And so then I just did open mics and got like, whatever day jobs. And I was. I tell you, I was doing shows at biker bars in Staten Island. I was doing shows for free. I was taking the $1 bus, you know, at like 11pm to go to balls.
- [32:21]
Phoebe Robinson
You were addicted. You were like, this is it.
- [32:23]
Beth
Yeah. So I just. I got all in and I studied and I watched all the HBO specials and everything, and it just. It really changed my life.
- [32:30]
Reshma Sajani
And it happens.
- [32:31]
Phoebe Robinson
2 Dope Queens is like a freaking hit and a half. Like a hit and a half. Yeah. You blow up. So talking about that, like, you love books and you got this imprint now.
- [32:42]
Beth
Yeah.
- [32:43]
Phoebe Robinson
Why books? Tiny reparations. Tell me.
- [32:45]
Beth
Gosh. Yeah, Tiny reparations. Books. I mean, I. When I was a kid, I used to write short stories all the time. Like, I just, I've always loved books. And, you know, my parents were always very much big promoters of reading. And, you know, they want us to read during the summer. Like, it's like reading should just be a natural part of your life and not homework. And I think there's a. This is a tangent, but I do feel like society, like, I understand the powers that be don't want us to be readers because critical thinking allows us to not be manipulated. But I'm like, there is so much joy and pleasure in reading.
- [33:24]
Phoebe Robinson
God, I love to read.
- [33:25]
Beth
And it's. I love the smell of books. I love holding them. I love audiobooks, all of that. So I think that that's very important. And so, you know, when I was writing my. When I was trying. Actually when I was trying to shop around my first book, you Can't Touch my hair in 2015. I've talked about this before, but my lit agent, Robert Gensler, who is. He's been with me for 10 years, and he's amazing, a fantastic champion of women and people of color and people from the career community to write their books. And I was getting rejected left, right and center with my proposal. And literally people were telling him, nobody wants to read a book written by a black woman. This isn't relatable. It won't sell. Black funny women don't. It's.
- [34:09]
Phoebe Robinson
It's niche.
- [34:10]
Beth
There's like, yes. And you're just like, been there. And I'm like, I want the. The numbers show that college educated black women actually be the most. That aside, it just felt like. And the Plume ended up being my publisher. And they were the only one who believed in me and saw anything in me. And I just was always. It was always in the back of my mind that I was like, you know, no one said the proposal wasn't well written or that it wasn't funny or that the talent isn't there. They were just saying, oh, you're black, so this won't work. And you're like, it's 2015, babe. Like, you can't. Like, it's so ignorant. But I just was always like, you know, that shouldn't be. And so I really wanted my imprint, which we're coming up on our 5th year anniversary this year, which is so exciting. I really wanted to be a platform where people can bring their. Their work and their talent and their book babies and they will not be rejected for how they identify. Like, if I don't, you know, go for a book, it's usually because I feel like I'm not the right home for it and that there's someone better for it. But. But I just really was just like, books are just this magical, amazing, just creations. And I don't want people to feel defeated or give up or their dreams or go like, well, I guess I, you know, I'm Asian and I guess, you know, no one wants to hear from me. Cause I'm Chinese, which my friends who.
- [35:33]
Phoebe Robinson
Are writers feel all the time is true. Or if you're South Asian, you can only sell a book about people in India. You know what I mean?
- [35:39]
Beth
Yeah.
- [35:40]
Phoebe Robinson
Because that's all we think people want to read. No, it's such a powerful point. It's not just about the talent who doesn't get their opportunity and their knowledge and their wisdom and their incredible writing platform. But it's also the ideas and the stories that we don't get to hear.
- [35:56]
Beth
And it's just sort of like, especially when I started my imprint, the amount of like manuscripts that were coming in that were just slavery stories. And I was like, guys, that can't be the only thing you want to publish. And so, like, now we're getting a place where people are sending us sort of like more good like, book clubby thriller things. And they're all. These are all books.
- [36:17]
Phoebe Robinson
Colleen Hoover. That's black.
- [36:19]
Beth
Yeah. And all these books are like, you know, about people of color who are like on the run or like coming of age story, or we have biography about Marsha P. Johnson coming out, which, you know, could be more timely considering the administration. But just like all these things where it's like, we live such rich, wonderful, interesting lives. And if we can, you know, relate to Sex and the City and Seinfeld and Sally Rooney and all these people, then you should be able to relate to our stories. Because what we're talk like, we want to fall in love. We want to break the law, you know, like, in an escapist way. We have families too, so we have all these stories and these rich tapestries that we want to share. So it's like, why not do that?
- [37:04]
Phoebe Robinson
Let me ask you a question.
- [37:05]
Beth
Yes.
- [37:06]
Phoebe Robinson
Why do you think they're trying to dismantle progress of women and people of color right now?
- [37:11]
Beth
Because. Oh, gosh, I mean, we could talk about it for, like, the next week, but I think a lot of it is because once they see that the progress is de centering men, and in particular, white men and whiteness, I think a lot of white identity, and this isn't a new concept, but I think a lot of white identity has built from denying others and presenting a lack within them. So you go like, oh, I'm great because people of color are dumb, or I'm more talented because people of color don't have sort of the. The ability to do what I do. And then when we do get into those spaces and we do kick butt, whether it's, you know, music, it is sports, you know, literature, you're sort of confronted with the reality that there is nothing inherently exceptional about you.
- [38:12]
Phoebe Robinson
Oof.
- [38:13]
Beth
Damn. And if there's nothing inherently exceptional about you, then you have to work.
- [38:19]
Reshma Sajani
Damn.
- [38:20]
Beth
And you. Yeah, you know, to me, I think that's the crux of it. It's like, if you're not special, then it's like, you gotta be like the rest of us, babe. You gotta roll up your sleeves. You gotta do the work. You gotta learn, you gotta, you know, you gotta fail. You know, you're not gonna fail upwards. You're gonna fail and, like, learn and then, like, pivot and do that. But these are all these sort of experiences that can be avoided because it's just like, well, I'm. I'm just naturally the best, so I don't have to deal with that.
- [38:47]
Phoebe Robinson
It's true. Listen, in all my life, in all my work, Girls who Code, Moms First, I've been on every powerful board. I have never seen the bar lowered. I have never seen the bar lowered for a woman or a person of color or a gay person. It has always just been a lie. Right? We've never talked about unearned privilege for white men. And I think what you say is so profound and so true, Right? Because it is wrapped up in identity that, like, that people kind of have held on to, right? About what makes them special when it doesn't and they're not.
- [39:24]
Beth
Yeah. And how do you, like. Because you two are also so accomplished, but you're so intelligent, and that freaks people out. A smart woman, people still get stressed. So how do you. Like, like, how do you. I. I don't know. I just don't want to. I'm just.
- [39:41]
Phoebe Robinson
Oh, I don't give a Anymore. I piss everybody off.
- [39:44]
Beth
It's gonna suck.
- [39:45]
Phoebe Robinson
I mean, I just. I mean, the reality is, is, like, there are things that I probably haven't gotten because I didn't play the cards and do the thing, right? There are opportunities I didn't get, but then there are people who love and respect what I do and who I am. And, like, I come to this thing, Phoebe, that, like, as women, as women of color, people of color, we gotta have a lot more swag. We gotta stop trying to shrink ourselves to make everybody else more comfortable. Like, I'm gonna put my fabulousness in your face, right, and make you deal with it. And. And I think that that is what I want. I really want to teach women to do. It's kind of why I started this podcast, right? It's like, know all this stuff that you think, like, your desire goes away, you know what I mean? That you don't have the best ideas right now that life is done. The older you get that you don't. You're not attractive anymore. It's all a lie.
- [40:38]
Beth
Yeah, it's all a lie.
- [40:40]
Phoebe Robinson
And so I just. I think we have to approach this moment that we're in. Great. Take away. De and I. I don't care. I'll still beat your ass anyway. Yeah, like, that's the attitude and the. That we have to come with at this moment. Like, a lot of my elders right now will say, we've never seen anything like this before. And often their response will say, so now you gotta be twice as good. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. We did that twice as good thing over there already. We're not doing that again. We're not falling for that again. We already are twice as good. We gotta, like, play a different tune, try a different move.
- [41:19]
Beth
You're so right that twice is good. Cause it's like, it got us somewhere, but it didn't last, you know, and we're all tired. Like, I think that was also part of the shift is like, I was just so tired. Like you know, before, like every pitch I was like I, I got the pitch memorized. I'm pro. You practice like asking me 20 questions so I can have an answer for. It's like all you're constantly over preparing so that like there's no gotcha and you can't live your life in the. Like I'm trying to stop the gotchas. Like that is just like that's too much.
- [41:53]
Phoebe Robinson
It's too much. And that.
- [41:55]
Beth
Yeah.
- [41:55]
Phoebe Robinson
And that's the thing. It's like you don't have time and we need time to rest, to recover, to laugh, to heal. And they don't. I know I spent a lot of time with these folks. Like they don't spend that much time because they just walk and think that they got it. And so, and also like this twice as good thing feeds into the narrative.
- [42:13]
Reshma Sajani
That we weren't twice as good.
- [42:14]
Beth
Yeah.
- [42:27]
Reshma Sajani
As a midlifer, I need to consider my finances in retirement. We have to start planning for years ahead, which is why it's important to start looking into our investments. But if you're like me, investing can sometimes feel overwhelming with all the fancy jargon that makes it seem more complicated than it really is. Well, Acorns believe that anyone can be an investor. That's why they make it easy to stick to basic time tested principles that give your money a chance to grow. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich.
- [43:09]
Phoebe Robinson
Acorns lets you get started with the.
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Reshma Sajani
Spare money you got right now, even if all you've got is spare change. As a midlife for juggling parenting and a career, I often feel overwhelmed and like I have no time to do anything else. But Acorns makes it easy to add investing into my routine.
- [43:26]
Phoebe Robinson
It seriously took just five minutes to set up my account and start investing.
- [43:30]
Reshma Sajani
I love that Acorns gives you small, simple steps to get you and your money on track. I can finally take ownership of my finances and make sure my money has a chance to grow. Sign up now and join over 13 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com midlife or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors, LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures@acorns.com Midlife when was the.
- [44:11]
Phoebe Robinson
Last time you listened to your gut? In the new year? There's a lot of misleading information floating around about food and weight loss. Did you know there's a lot of misleading information about ultra processed foods. Trying to frame them as healthy. That's why now is the best time to look into Zoe. Backed by one of the world's largest microbiome databases and most scientifically advanced at home GUT health tests, Zoe gives you proven science whenever you need it. Your Zoe membership starts by testing your gut health and making smart food choices. From there, Zoe is science led and proven to work in a randomized controlled trial. Trust your gut. Trust Zoe. Go to Zoe.com to find out what Zoe membership could do for you. And because you listen to my so called Midlife, you can use the exclusive code ZOE20 to get 10% off membership. As a Zoe member, you get an at home test kit and personalized nutrition program to help you make smarter food choices that support your gut. That's z o e.com use Zoe20 at checkout. So you strike me as someone who goes for everything, right? Like your comedy, your writing, three New York Times bestsellers. It seems like a fourth one's coming on its way. Podcasting now running.
- [45:38]
Beth
And where does that come from?
- [45:40]
Phoebe Robinson
Because I get the sense with your vibe is like it comes to you, you don't chase it too much and you don't get too bothered by it.
- [45:53]
Beth
I think I would say I'm a bit of an overachiever and I do want to figure out where that comes from because my parents have always been, you know, they've been tough but fair, you know, which I think is, you know, the summary of a lot of parents who are tough.
- [46:10]
Phoebe Robinson
Very nice. I'm gonna tell my father that today when I talked to him. That is a really nice way of saying something.
- [46:17]
Reshma Sajani
I might describe another way.
- [46:19]
Beth
Okay, no, but I think they really did instill in us, like you have to show up for yourself, work ethic, all that stuff. So a lot of. So I will say the work ethic and all this stuff has, I guess will, I will say, comes naturally to me. I would say the unbotheredness is probably due to therapy, life coaching over the past four years of just sort of like, it doesn't mean, you know, I used to be like, you have to just give 100 to 10% all the time. And you gotta show up all the time. You just gotta, like, give everything or you don't care. And. And now I'm just like, you could give. You could give 80 and still care. If it's a good 80, it's. If it's a great 80%, that's awesome. Because giving 120% makes no goddamn sense for what I'm doing. If I was, like, a doctor or, you know, Dr. Fauci, you know, and dealing with COVID that makes sense. I'm. And this is not to diminish what I'm doing. It's just to provide context. Like, I chose a career where a lot of it is predicated on providing joy and being fun and funny and enjoying yourself. And if I'm going into this being so intense and never enjoying what I'm doing, I am missing the point.
- [47:46]
Phoebe Robinson
So are there places where you allow yourself to be mediocre? And how is this serving you in dating life?
- [47:53]
Beth
You know, I. So I just lightly started sort of, like, teaching myself how to play the piano. I'm not. I'm not good at all. I'm inconsistent with practicing it, and I'm just sort of like, yeah, it's fine. Like, I'm not going into it being like, I gotta be Alicia Keys. I'm like. I'm like. I just. This is a creative outlet. And so I'm. I think a. I think this is a very American sort of concept of, like, if you can't be the biggest, the best, and the greatest, then why do it? And you're like, well, I'm doing it because I like it. And doesn't that fucking count for anything?
- [48:31]
Reshma Sajani
It does.
- [48:31]
Phoebe Robinson
It should.
- [48:32]
Beth
It's why a lot.
- [48:33]
Phoebe Robinson
That's why men do a lot of things.
- [48:34]
Beth
Yeah.
- [48:35]
Phoebe Robinson
I mean, my husband plays basketball. He's not very good, but.
- [48:38]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah, loves.
- [48:38]
Phoebe Robinson
Yeah, I think that's right.
- [48:40]
Beth
I think.
- [48:40]
Phoebe Robinson
I think hobbies are really important. Okay. How do you motivate someone who's trying to do something new when they're, like, 38?
- [48:51]
Beth
What? I. It's the same attitude. I have to. When I start writing something. You're on the first draft. You're just like, yeah, it's fine if this sucks. Who cares? It's fine if it's not perfect. You'll figure it out. You'll get there. But you gotta make the mistakes. You gotta. Like, whether you want to play basketball or learn an instrument or, you know, people are like, I decide I want to, like, be a chef later in life, and I want to do that. You just have to accept that, like not being great at something, it's going to be a big part of it for quite some time. And either you could tell your ego to back off and not take offense to that, or you could let it get in the way of like the future joy that comes. Like the fact that I'm going to Tokyo is amazing. If I let the times I've been in Prospect park and like I've done speed work for like 20 minutes and I felt like I lost both my lungs stop me be like, okay, I'm not gonna run anymore. I wouldn't be going to Tokyo in three weeks.
- [49:57]
Phoebe Robinson
It's gonna be extraordinary. Well, I'm so excited for you. We're gonna be cheering you on.
- [50:02]
Beth
Thank you.
- [50:04]
Phoebe Robinson
This was amazing. Thank you.
- [50:19]
Reshma Sajani
Phoebe Robinson is a comedian, writer and actress. Thank you Phoebe for an incredible conversation. And thank you Midlifers so much for listening to my so called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now it's a great time. Time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content like Phoebe talking about her experience interviewing the one and only Michelle Obama. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts. Or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com thanks and we'll be back next week. I'm your host Rashmi Sajani. Our producer is Claire Jones. Our associate producer is Isaura Asavez. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kurayev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltok. Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lepore and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oha Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so called Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye.
- [52:13]
Sarah
Want more from your favorite Lemonada Media podcast? While supporting the shows that help make life suck lessons, subscribe to Lemonada Premium today. As a subscriber, you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like Never before heard, interviews, behind the scenes moments, bonus episodes, and so much more. It's easy to sign up no matter what podcast app you use on Apple. You can just click the Lemonada logo in the Apple podcast app and hit subscribe. For all other podcast apps, head to Lemonada supportingcast FM to subscribe. That's Lemonada supportingcast fm.
- [52:50]
Sarah Silverman
Why hello there. This is your pal Sarah Silverman. You know, the stand up comic that's not afraid of a diarrhea joke. Oh my God, I'm so brave. I hope you're enjoying this podcast that you're listening to. I am just dropping in here to let you know about another podcast I think you'd like and it's called the Sarah Silverman Podcast. Each week listeners from all over the world call in and they ask me for advice or they talk about something going on in their life, anything, their silliest, grossest, deepest, darkest situation. And then I respond, whether I'm qualified to or not. Go ahead, search for the Sarah Silverman Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
- [53:25]
Phoebe Robinson
Bye.