← My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
Loading summary
Transcript116 lines
- [00:03]
Reshma Sajani
Hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me, the show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor and their hard earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91 year old mom Judy to get her take on it all. Wiser Than Me from Lemonade Media premieres November. Wherever you get your podcasts, It's morning in New York. Hey everybody, I'm Mandy Patinkin. And I'm Kathryn Grody and we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Listen to Us. Many of you have asked for our advice. Tell me what is wrong with you people.
- [00:59]
Abby Phillip
Don't listen to us. Our take it or leave it advice.
- [01:01]
Reshma Sajani
Show is out every Wednesday, premiering October 15th.
- [01:06]
Abby Phillip
A Lemonada Media original.
- [01:12]
Reshma Sajani
Lemonade. Hey midlifers. Just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of my Soul Cloud Midlife Ad free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to an exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus and Fail Better with David Duchovny and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show. And Apple Podcasts make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. My guest this week is someone who's become one of the most trusted and just unflappable voices in the news today. Abby Philipp is the anchor of CNN's Newsnight and she has a thing or two to share with us about how to stay grounded when the entire nation is watching you and scrutinizing your every word. We get into the myth of overnight success, the freedom she found in not caring what other people think of her and why kindness is the best rule for surviving institutions and people who just don't want to see you succeed. Abby also tells us about her incredible new book, A Dream Deferred, and what it can teach us about the future of American democracy. I loved this conversation and I can't wait for you to listen. Let's get into it. All right, Abby, I've been looking forward to chatting with you. Spent my Thanksgiving break, reading your incredible book. So I'm so excited that we're here. So you have technically just entered midlife. Welcome to the club.
- [03:08]
Abby Phillip
Thank you. Thank you.
- [03:09]
Reshma Sajani
So we start with the same question, which is, like, what is your midlife mindset? Like, are you in? Like, this is my power. Like, everything's being unleashed here. I saw, like, an Instagram post of, like, a bunch of women calling themselves queenagers, like, queen teenagers. Or are you, like, holding it together and chasing your youth or being nostalgic about it? How do you feel?
- [03:32]
Abby Phillip
Oh, my God. I'm definitely not chasing my youth. Let me just make that perfectly clear. I actually think this is the best time of my life, and I don't think that's even in dispute. I think in actuality, midlife should be, and hopefully for most people, will be the best time, because you're not kind of in your 20s trying to figure yourself out. I only do things I want to do now in this moment of my life, and that feels so great, you know, the night sweats are not so great.
- [04:07]
Reshma Sajani
Yes. No, they're not. No, they are not.
- [04:10]
Abby Phillip
But other than that, I mean, it's good. And I think every year past 30 has been better and better and better. And I know that that's not everybody's experience, but it's been mine. And I think I would hope that what people experience as they get older is that life starts to fall into place and things start to make sense, and. And also your values start to shift, where you really understand yourself and you understand what matters to you, and that becomes the thing rather than all the external forms of validation. So that's where I'm at.
- [04:46]
Reshma Sajani
Why do you think you're in that camp? Because not everybody is. I've been thinking about this. What. How do you, like, what separates us? Like, was your mother like that? Were the women in your life like that? Or were you, like. I remember I was interviewing someone. I think it was maybe it was Alana Glaser, and she was like, I just. From the time I was five, I just couldn't wait to get older.
- [05:03]
Abby Phillip
Yeah.
- [05:04]
Reshma Sajani
Are you just a wise soul?
- [05:05]
Abby Phillip
I see that. I. I'm a little bit like that. You know, I've always been the, like, precocious child. You know, when I was 5, I was acting like I was 15, probably. So that's probably the case, if I'm being honest and truthful. I never really liked my 20s. I didn't like my teen years. I didn't like my 20s. I did not like, not Having control over my own life. That's one of the things that made teenage, you know, my teenage period so tough, was just feeling that I was sort of at the mercy of everybody else around me. And then Even in my 20s, you know, when you're in your 20s and you're working and you're doing all these different things and you're just kind of always the young person, you're always the person who has to report to somebody else. And, and I, I did not like any of that. I didn't like dating before I met my husband. I. Right, I'm sorry. But all of that stuff, the running around, Sex and the City, whatever it.
- [06:03]
Reshma Sajani
Is, you are not into any of that.
- [06:04]
Abby Phillip
You're like, no, thank you, not me.
- [06:06]
Reshma Sajani
No, thank you.
- [06:06]
Abby Phillip
I just have always wanted to be settled. I've wanted to feel settled and be settled in all the different ways, whether that is in my work life or in my family life, and also be able to make decisions for myself. And I think some of that comes from the fact that I'm also a pretty introverted person. I'm a kind of homebody. I like to be in my house, I like to build a life for myself and I don't get a lot of external validation from other people. I've just never been that person.
- [06:40]
Reshma Sajani
Which is crazy because you are a journalist on national tv.
- [06:44]
Abby Phillip
But it helps, Rashman. I think it really helps. It helps me do my job that I don't care what other people think of me. That doesn't influence my self esteem, especially not at this stage in my life. And I'm not, you know, trying to be BFFs with no, all of my sources and my, you know, that I, I didn't want my social group to be my work life. I never wanted that. And so I think that has actually really helped me to navigate this world, this industry that I'm in, where in fact, I think having a little bit of that distance does help. Having the ability to have self validation outside of other people, that helps a lot.
- [07:27]
Reshma Sajani
It's so interesting and powerful that you say that because I'm going to tell you something. When I feel, because I do feel like we're living in a moment where there's like a bravery deficit and sometimes I just search for courageous moments and courageous people. And I gotta tell you, I go to your Instagram and I see you talking to somebody and somebody says something crazy and I see that look in your eye and it's interesting because I feel when I'm watching you, I'M gonna be honest, I don't think you're doing it for likes or to try to get attention. You're actually responding with your heart and how you're actually feeling in that moment genuinely as a human. And so, like, for me, it's like, oh, like Abby's being brave. And it's, it's such like a guiding light. For me, it has been right. And I think such a role model in terms of how we need to show up in this moment, because it's not performative, it's human.
- [08:23]
Abby Phillip
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, and I thank you for that because I think that's what I'm aiming for is a bit of humanity. And that can sometimes be a little bit more emotive than you're used to from the news. But I think it is because it ought to be channeling something real, that if somebody says something crazy and you're like, huh? You kind of like, what?
- [08:51]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [08:51]
Abby Phillip
What are you even talking about? Everybody at home is saying the same thing.
- [08:55]
Reshma Sajani
Yep.
- [08:56]
Abby Phillip
And they're, they just happen to not be at the table. And so I try to both respond authentically, meaning I am listening to people. I really want to hear what they're saying. I want to hear where they're going with the argument. And sometimes there are times when I know where they're going. I might jump in and say, hold on, before you even do that thing, I'm going to just set the table in terms of facts. But sometimes I let them go. I let them unspool a little bit so I can really listen and hear what people have to say and then have some kind of reaction, whether it is to ask a follow up question or to be a little bit incredulous. I don't know that if it's, if it is in fact bravery. But I will say this, that it is really hard today for people to be honest on television because everybody feels so beholden to their groups, to the people that matter to them, whose opinions of them matter. So when people come to the table, this taking me out of it, when people come to my table on Newsnight and they say something that goes against their group, that to me is a form of bravery. And I try to recognize that and acknowledge it when it happens, because it is too rare. And regardless of your point of view, politically, you ought to be able to do that from time to time. And to be able to say that, like, I know my friends might not like that I say this, but I actually think it's true. That is a form of bravery. That is missing so much in our politics today on both sides of the aisle. I put that in scare quotes because there aren't just two sides. There's. People are all the way everywhere. It's missing from everywhere, but it's missing from everybody. It's missing from everywhere because we are.
- [10:48]
Reshma Sajani
Literally pawns of the algorithm. So you, you know. Right. Like, if I say this, I'm going to get punished in the social media sphere.
- [10:57]
Abby Phillip
Right.
- [10:58]
Reshma Sajani
And in the algorithm.
- [10:59]
Abby Phillip
Right. In somebody else's group chat, they're going to be taking the clip and they're going to put in a group. They're going to be talking about me. People are afraid of that. Yep, they are.
- [11:07]
Reshma Sajani
And their actions are guided by that. Or I'm going to do something, like, outrageous just because I think that the algorithm is going to reward that. And it's like, you know, people always say, oh, we're so divided. I'm like, we're not divided. We are being divided. Like, there's a difference between how we actually feel. But, you know, your career has literally unfolded, like, at warp speed in front of, like, the entire country. To be a rocket ship is hard. It's hard for especially. Cause I feel like you're enormously humble and, like, have a relationship with your own ego. I, I, I can get that sense. Right.
- [11:40]
Abby Phillip
I like that, I like that phraseology.
- [11:43]
Reshma Sajani
So it's hard, right. When you're just so, like, when you look back at your past political Washington Post debate stage, anchoring primetime, like, what's the moment where you're like, okay, this isn't a job anymore. This is a calling? Because I'm, I'm, I'm a big believer in God. Like, God had a plan for you. Right. And you kind of had to let it just unfold.
- [12:02]
Abby Phillip
God definitely had a plan for me. That, that is for sure. The one thing I will say, though, is that, and I, and I think you might understand what I'm saying here, but I do not think my career has unfolded like a rocket ship.
- [12:18]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [12:18]
Abby Phillip
I think that sometimes that's, that is part of the problem is that we look at people's careers and they're like, where did she come from? She just showed up here.
- [12:29]
Reshma Sajani
And you're like, I've been the engine that could for a long time.
- [12:32]
Abby Phillip
Yeah. And the truth is, we're, we're chugging along and we're going and we're going and we're going. And then suddenly all the work that you put in starts to matter and starts to make sense, but nobody is like a rocket ship, really, when you really think about it. We are all building on our experiences and on our work and on our. Just the grind of it all. And to me, it is very important to convey that because I do think that there is a misconception that I just blinked and my career was this. And that's not the case at all. I've been covering politics at the national level since I was 21 years old. I'm 37 now. And so you look good, girl. That's not a blink of an eye, okay? Trust me. I don't feel 37. I really don't. But it is not a blink of an eye. Not really. Because there are a lot of 21 year olds who are like, if I'm not the Forbes 30 under 30 list, then nothing's going to happen in my career. And I'm like, you have no idea before you're 30. It is just not even the beginning, really, right? And we're so obsessed with youth and we're so obsessed with doing things at a young age that we craft the wrong narrative about truly impactful careers which do not happen overnight. Look at them. Like, really, all of them, they have arcs. They have. They are journeys. In my 20s, I was really chugging along just job after job after job and not really even knowing what it was all going to add up to. Not even really knowing what I was particularly good at.
- [14:16]
Reshma Sajani
Did you know what you wanted to do, though? Were you like, my goal is a show on cnn?
- [14:20]
Abby Phillip
No, no, not at all. And in fact, what I thought was my goal for myself turned out to not actually be the thing. When I went from ABC News, which was my second job, my second, the place that I work, to the Washington Post, and I landed at the Washington Post. And I remember walking through the doors of the old classic Washington Post office of Watergate, and I was like, oh, my God, I am walking through the doors of the Washington Post. This is where Woodward and Bernstein worked. They were upstairs. And I'm walking down the hallways, I'm just like, this is it. Like, this is it. And. And when I was there, I was happy. I thought I was gonna, you know, I. I thought I was gonna do all kinds of things. I wanted to try to finagle my way into a foreign correspondent job. I wanted to work in Europe or in Africa or somewhere. And I thought that was. I was just gonna be a print reporter and I was gonna be doing things there. And so this part of life has been completely unexpected in many ways. And it's partly because I didn't know at the time. I didn't know what I was good at at that time and I was good at it at that time. I just didn't know it. My skill is an analytical skill. What I am good at is helping people synthesize and understand. It's helping to put into words what people need to know and what they are thinking and what they need to convey. And I think that that skill is not always rewarded in the sort of scoopy world of journalism that I was in for most of my career, but it happens to have been the thing that helped differentiate me in my work both when I was at the Washington Post and also when I went to cnn. So that's when things changed.
- [16:08]
Reshma Sajani
You know that moment when you sit down to tackle your day and your brain just will not cooperate? That's been me lately. I love my morning coffee, but it's giving me the jitters, tanking my focus and making my stomach just feel off. I kept thinking how is the thing that it's supposed to help me start my day actually slowing me down? Then I tried Everyday Dose and it completely shifted my mornings. My ritual stayed the same, but now I no longer dread how I will feel. Everyday Dose is Coffee plus Benefits. They combine high quality coffee with powerful ingredients like lion's mane and chaga, collagen, protein and nootropics to fuel your brain, boost your focus and give you clean, sustained energy all day long. It tastes just like coffee without the downside. No crash, no jitters, just clean sustained energy. Right now, get 61% off your first coffee plus starter kit, free peppermint Mocha creamer for the holidays and over $100 in free gifts plus enter for a chance to win $100 cash or get your entire order refunded. Visit everydaydose.com midlife or use code midlife at checkout when it comes to holiday gifting, I want to give things people truly love. Beautiful, timeless pieces they will wear for years. That is why I'm going with quints. They have something for everyone and everything is premium quality at a price that finally makes sense. Designer level sweaters at everyday prices. Silk tops and skirts for dressing up perfectly cut denim for daily wear and outerwear that actually keeps you warm. Every piece is made with premium materials from ethical, trusted factories and priced far below other luxury brands. My personal favorite is their Mongolian cashmere sweater. It feels incredible. Soft, structured and it never pills. It's the kind of quality I would expect from a $200 piece, not 50 I've been wearing mine non stop and it's holding up so well through the season. And quints makes gifting easy in every category. Their home and travel pieces round out my list and take the guesswork out of holiday shopping. Fine. Gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quints. Go to quint.com midlife for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, that is. Q U-I-N c e.com midlife hello, I'm.
- [18:18]
Abby Phillip
James Corden, and on my new show, this Life of Mine, I sit down each week with some of the most fascinating people on planet Earth. From Dr. Dre to Julianne Moore to David Beckham to Cynthia Erivo to Martin Scorsese to Jeremy Renner to Denzel Washington to Kim Kardashian, we talk about the people who places, possessions, music, and memories that made them who they are. These are intimate conversations full of stories that you've never heard before. This Life of Mine premieres October 21st, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [18:54]
Reshma Sajani
So did someone say to you, Abby, like, this is your skill. Like, you got to go do this on so who was that? How did that happen?
- [19:00]
Abby Phillip
So sometimes you don't know your own strengths and sometimes other people can see you way more clearly than you see yourself. And that's what happened to me. It actually, I think when it really happened was around 2020 when I was covered. It was during COVID and I had been asked to do CNN's convention coverage. I didn't know why they asked me to do that, to be honest. Because I was a correspondent. I wasn't an anchor at the time, I was just a correspondent, Right? And I was kind of like, okay, whatever, I'll do it. And after the first night, I was like, oh my God, I don't know if that was any good. And I walked out of the building. I happened to walk out of the building with Rebecca Cutler, who was then the head of talent, and she was like, that was great. Whatever you did today, just keep doing that. She was like, you're really good at capturing the moment and always saying something that no one else is going to say. And I was like, okay. And I just did exactly what she said to do. And I just did that. I did it for the three nights or the four nights of the RNC convention and then the following week or whatever. But when she said that to me, then I was like, you know what? She's right that this is what makes me different from other people and this is my Strength. That's, I think, the moment when I really heard that feedback and I started to see myself differently. I stopped seeing that as just a thing that was like a, by the way, part of what I did and as actually something that was at the heart of what I did that made me different from everyone else. And that built and it built and it built. And then on election night, when or that election week when everybody was sort of watching, that's one of the things that I think came out of that experience was that people were like, she's really saying things that I'm not hearing from other people. And I think that is what frankly changed the trajectory of my career from then on.
- [21:00]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like a simple thing to do, but like, again, I think, going back to our previous conversation, a hard skill, because you don't give a fuck what people think. So you're able to actually do it in a way that then helps you kind of resonate with people, right?
- [21:16]
Abby Phillip
Yeah, I mean, I think that, look, my barometer is not really what other people think. I am my own harshest critic. We all are in some ways, but I am for sure, you know, I am.
- [21:28]
Reshma Sajani
So I'm my harshest critic too.
- [21:30]
Abby Phillip
I'm always editing. I'm always like, you know, was that right? Like, I could have done that better. I, you know, I'm critical of myself in many ways, and so I hold myself to a very high standard. I tend to think that other people, when they give you feedback, they're like, trying to be nice, and a lot of times they're not really being honest. And so I don't really take people's feedback. This is a character flaw, by the way. It's not actually a good thing. I don't take other people's feedback that seriously because sometimes I think that they're underplaying things. So, yeah, my drive to get better and self correct and do all of that stuff that comes from me predominantly. But sometimes other people can say to you can. Can play a super pivotal role by saying to you, here's a thing about you that you're not noticing that is good, that you need to harness, that you need to develop, that you need to cultivate. And when you are your own harshest critic, sometimes it's actually really hard to see that thing because you're so busy correcting yourself that you're not noticing your special sauce. And I acknowledge that I didn't see that in myself until somewhat recently, but hey, in my 30s. And I think that for many people, for Many, many people. It is around that time that you will start to lock into your, your purpose, your special skill, you know, your thing that is the differentiator for you. It is right around that time that you really start to see what gives you the edge over other people. Because that's when that. To me that feels like. And maybe for some people it's earlier, but in so called midlife. So called midlife. In midlife, that is when your experiences and the passage of time and your failures and your successes start to gel into something that means something to you.
- [23:25]
Reshma Sajani
That's right. It's funny you say that because I feel like I discovered that also in my late 30s of like, oh, I'm. I'm really good communicator. Yeah, I can give a good speech, I can give a good talk. I can take an audience through like an emotional experience by telling a story. And I really said, I want to become great at this. You know, I want to, I want to become great. And I started really working on it like as a skill set. Like I used to. I hated watching myself on, on tv, right. And I would just never watch myself same. And I was like, but wait, if this is the skill that I'm going to get excellent at, I have to watch myself 20 times, right. And like notice how I said things or figure out how I could said something differently or like, how am I connected? Am I playing with my hair? Am I doing, you know, am I doing a weird thing with my smile? Like. But I think you're right. It is really thinking and I, you know, what's your God given talent? What's the thing that you are really good at and what's the thing that you love? Because I feel the most at home when I'm on stage. I am the most present, I am the most, you know what I mean, there. When I am, when I am, that's my happy place.
- [24:32]
Abby Phillip
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that it is okay to not know that for a while. I used to hate. People would always ask me, where do you want to be in 10 years? Where do you want to be in five years? Or what's your dream job? I would always be like, I have no idea. I have no idea. I couldn't get myself there. And in my 20s I thought that was a major character flaw of mine. A failure to imagine, a failure to plan. And maybe it was. But I also think that it is part of actually what has helped my career be so unique, which is that I have not been wedded to any particular path to getting someplace. And there's an open mindedness that I've approached my career and my life with that I think has been very important. You have to be open minded enough to allow, if you know, if you believe in God as I do, to allow God to show you what he has planned for you. If you are so busy telling God, telling the universe, whatever, this is what I want and if I don't get this, I'm not going to be successful, then you're going to completely miss the thing.
- [25:44]
Reshma Sajani
It's such a, such an important thing, what you just said. And I think such a thing that we all miss. Right. Because I think we're spending so much time, I think especially as a woman of color because there's so few of us doing the things that we're doing. You think you gotta follow the playbook kind of. When I hear you talk, Abby, I'm like, that sounds like the privileged white men in my life and how they talk, that they can actually have, right. This like openness to guide their own path. And I'm like, oh, we don't get to do that. We have to do it this way.
- [26:15]
Abby Phillip
Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I had not really thought about it that way because for me it comes from a bit of a different place. I think it comes from more of a place of whatever is possible for me. I want that. And I don't know what is possible. I don't know where the limits are, if there are any limits. But whatever is possible, I want that. And I had to have that approach because I didn't come from a lot. So by the time I was sort of out on my own in college and I was already doing a thing that was beyond my expectations and beyond sort of the dreams of even my own family. When I went to Harvard for undergrad, everything after that, just bonus. Yeah, just bonus. Just whatever you put in front of me, God, I will do. I didn't know that that was the mindset of men or white men or whoever. But if it is, then that was really just by chance that I felt like I had to be that way because there I didn't have any expectations for my career and my life that I must do this or else. The only thing I knew I must do is have a job.
- [27:30]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [27:31]
Abby Phillip
And provide for myself. But other than that, I think I was very open and that I think that openness has been both liberating and also challenging. Because there are definitely some times when you're like, I feel rudderless. I don't know where things are headed. And in those moments, then you have to start looking for guidance. Then you have to start reaching out. You have to start. You have to start cultivating your think tank of people who are helping you figure out what is possible in the world.
- [28:00]
Reshma Sajani
And I'm sure people ask you, abby, what's next? What are you doing? It's like, I also think it's the people around you that make you. I know for me, they make me feel like what I'm doing, I should be doing something else. Because this is not the thing. Because I have a. Because I think what you're talking about to me is being guided by spirituality, recognizing that you're put on this earth to do a certain thing. And it will. It will come, you know, I mean, but it is a different way for anybody on how they guide their life. And I think people who do great things are guided in that way. But the people around you don't understand. Right. Because we are taught to be gunning for the next thing and gunning for the next thing, and gunning for the next thing. Part of what I wanted to ask you is like, again, like, your careers unfolded in institutions that don't have a lot of people that have your story, your background, right?
- [28:50]
Abby Phillip
Yeah.
- [28:50]
Reshma Sajani
So what's a rule that you've learned to kind of. To survive and to crush it?
- [28:55]
Abby Phillip
The first rule, I think, is kindness. This is just happens to be my default setting. But it's also. There have been times in my career where I've asked myself, am I holding myself back because I'm too nice? Like, is this. Am I really cut out for this if I'm not cutthroat and, you know, knifing people in the back and in feuds with this person and that person? And there have been many times where I've had to ask myself that, like, is this working for you? Is this going to work for you? But it's been a really important part of the development of my career is just, I don't have beef with anybody, okay? That's my philosophy. I have no beef with really anyone at all. I try to maintain relationships with everyone I encounter, everyone I work with. We don't have to be best friends, but we are going to have a cordial relationship. I'm going to understand.
- [29:59]
Reshma Sajani
What if they try to torpedo you?
- [30:00]
Abby Phillip
It happens every day. And guess what? I know that they're trying to torpedo me, but it doesn't change how I interact with them.
- [30:09]
Reshma Sajani
Okay?
- [30:10]
Abby Phillip
And I'm just telling you from experience, I've Dealt with this many times. Plenty of people have tried to torpedo me in my career. You will never find somebody saying, oh, she was so nasty to me. Because I don't believe that that is strategic. I don't believe it is strategic to have that kind of dynamic between you and other people. They can waste their energy hating me all they want, but I'm not going to waste my energy doing that. There are people who I know not on Team Abby. That's okay. I still need to understand what they need from me and how I can help them help me. I've always intended to be kind and to be helpful and to be a positive force in the places that I work. And then secondly, even when there are people around me, whether they are bosses or colleagues or whoever, who don't have my best interests in mind, that's okay. I don't ever approach them as if, oh, he hates me. I can't talk to him. Because sometimes you still have to walk into their office and ask for something or get them to help you in some way. Somehow. Somehow I've had the discernment to be able to say, okay, in every single one of these relationships, if this person has an impact on my life, how do I figure out how to communicate with them? How do I figure out what they need? How can I give them a permission structure to get me what I need? And approaching every single relationship that way has been super important. 90% of the time in my career, I have not worked for or with people who look like me. So this is not contingent on me having, you know, somebody who is an ally because they are another black woman or whatever, because that almost never happens. It has so rarely happened in my career. I can literally, it's like once, maybe twice. And so to me, it's really important to figure it out. To figure out, how do you connect? How do you maintain generally positive relationships with people? How do you understand what they need? Because what people need more than anything else is a win. How do you help them deliver a win for themselves that's also a win for you? And that, I think, has been a guiding principle in all the different places, corporate places that I've worked, where nobody looks like me, none of my bosses look like me. They don't, you know, they don't understand me, they don't identify with me. All of that still the same formula for. For breaking through, through that.
- [32:47]
Reshma Sajani
And how has that, like, helps you with your journalism? Right? Because right now you are, like, probably witnessing the best and the worst of people every single Day. And like, you know, we're an era of like an enormous amount of national division. And so how has that helped you when you're delivering the news and doing your job?
- [33:05]
Abby Phillip
Yeah, I mean, look, journalism is about people. It's about understanding them, it's about listening to them. It's about the debate of ideas. That's what politics is all about. And so from the very beginning of my career, when I was first covering politics and I was young and all of that, it was so incredibly rare that I would interact with somebody who I had anything in common with. It just was. It was just really rare. So from the get go, you have to figure out, how do you connect with somebody? What does that conversation sound like? How do you figure out where are they from? Do they have kids? Do they, how do you connect even when somebody has nothing in common with you? And then when you're talking to somebody who you think is hostile to you, which is also something that happens in a journalistic career that happens all the time. I'm going to be frank. I would call Republicans and, you know, they would know. Sometimes they would know who I am and they'd be like, you know, I can, I can hear it in their minds, oh, she's a black Democrat, you know, she's biased against me. And then you would have to figure out, how do you still have a relationship with that person such that they trust you enough to tell you things? So that's a basic journalistic principle. And you don't have to be best friends with them, but you have to approach them with honesty and say, here's why I'm going to be fair to you. First of all, I'm going to listen to you. Second of all, I'm going to be transparent about what I'm doing with the information that you're giving to me. And thirdly, we're both humans. When I had a child, actually, that also tremendously helps because you can really relate to most people on that basis. And so you find the little things to connect on a human level. And that helps you even when you don't have anything in common, even when people, you disagree with people, even when they think that you are hostile to them, it kind of breaks that down.
- [35:05]
Reshma Sajani
Do you have like a go to connection question or go to hostile thing? Right. That you basically say, like, like, I know for me, like my go to connection is like to talk about kids. Like, oh, so how many do you have? Two kids? How many children do you have? Like it just immediately when you parent to parent like, it just creates a relationship. But do you have something that works like, if you're in that situation?
- [35:24]
Abby Phillip
I think that's one of my go tos these days. Just in the life stage that I am. And this is, by the way, a practice thing, because I'm not a natural small talker. I'm not big on that. But, you know, asking people, just for starters, where are they from? Is just an easy way to get some, get a lot out of people. Like, they'll tell you, well, you know, I grew up in Florida, but my dad was in the Air Force and they were traveling around and, you know, then suddenly they're telling you all about their lives and then you can figure out things within that. One of the things that I found that rarely worked for me, this was actually, this is a sort of fail. This is what didn't work for me when I was young. When I was younger, you know, a lot of my peers would. They would connect over where they went to college and everybody went to, you know, University of Missouri or they went to like, you know, some state school or maybe they were fans of the football team or whatever. I'm not into sports and I didn't go to a state school. I went to an Ivy League school. All of these things counted against me. So I had to figure out another touch point with people that did not involve anything about college, it didn't involve anything about sports. And it took some time. It took time. And it's different for different things. And then sometimes it's also like figuring out if you have mutual people in common, you know, friends or connections. So there are a lot of different ways to do it. And look, if you went to a state school and that's your point of connection, that's a great thing or whatever it is. You know, you went to, or you went to a large university where there are a lot of people, that's great. But that did not work for me. And I had to figure out a way around that.
- [37:01]
Reshma Sajani
You mentioned your daughter Naomi. For a second, I saw that little smile that we all have when we, our kids come up. I mean, we're kind of, you know, obviously, you know, so much of the work I do is like in the middle of this conversation, conversation about, like, do we live in a world that allows us to both kind of mother and live our professional dreams? Like, what are your thoughts on that?
- [37:19]
Abby Phillip
Ooh, I have so many thoughts.
- [37:20]
Reshma Sajani
Tell me all your thoughts on it.
- [37:22]
Abby Phillip
I have so. I have so many thoughts. I mean, I personally think that we are in a new and a really important moment for this era of feminism. And I think that this era of feminism that I'm a millennial, that my generation is in the midst of, is one in which we not just reclaim our femininity and our power at the same time, but we also demand the ability to be all of those things. And that is how I feel personally, where I'm, like, working a legit job, you know, doing the whole thing. You know, getting on airplanes every day, traveling, doing the whole thing. I have a daughter, but I also make sourdough on the weekends. And I am very involved in my child's life. I cook as often as I possibly can for my family. Not because I have a husband telling me, if you don't have dinner on the table, but because I want to. Because that's the home that I want to create for myself and for my life. And I think that the reason that you're seeing all of these women, the trad wives and such, is because we are. We're there. We're like, actually, if we want to make butter from scratch, we will, right? And I. And I do. And actually, if we want to have a garden in our backyard and cultivate our own produce, we will. And we will do that. And we will have the career, right? And maybe we will make that the career. And I think that that is a new and important era in the development of feminism. And I. But. But the missing piece, and I know that you can relate to this, is the way in which I think now women are developing enough power to start to demand that the systems around these things change. This is the part that is still in progress. I think as millennials and younger generations, I think, get older and grow into their power, I think that's when we're really going to start to see things shifting. That's why we're seeing women talking about what it's like to give birth in this country and paid family leave. And it's not just about equal pay. It's also about how we should be paid and also be allowed to have families and not be penalized for leaning into the softer parts of our lives. Right?
- [39:59]
Reshma Sajani
That's right.
- [40:00]
Abby Phillip
And so I think that there is work to be done, but I do feel like this generation is gonna start knocking down some doors on those things, because we're just like, no, I say.
- [40:14]
Reshma Sajani
It all the time. Yep.
- [40:15]
Abby Phillip
Yeah. No, we're just not gonna take it anymore because we are living these lives, and, yes, we are doing the things, and we want these structures and These systems to start getting out of our way so that we can have the lives that we actually want.
- [40:30]
Reshma Sajani
And as you're talking, you know, it's interesting, as you were talking, I always think about the ad that they did last year in the presidential where they had Julia Roberts and she was like, shh, don't tell your husband. And how wrong we got it. Right.
- [40:43]
Abby Phillip
Yeah.
- [40:44]
Reshma Sajani
Because we. The old kind of feminist card, assumed that, like, oh, these were things we wanted. The men over there were telling us what we wanted. And the idea that a woman could wanna take her kids to school, could wanna bake sourdough bread, could wanna be with her kid and crush it, like, it was just unfathomable. I mean, Betty Friedan talks about this, like, the mistake right. In the third wave of feminism was like removing the family from the conversation. And I think you're at. We're having a different conversation. So I think culturally we're still catching up to recognizing that it's women's choices to want that softer, to be feminine and to crush, to do, like. And I think we're still having culture kind of catch up to that reality. And so.
- [41:26]
Abby Phillip
Yes.
- [41:26]
Reshma Sajani
You know what I mean?
- [41:27]
Abby Phillip
Yeah, yeah. And look, it can look a lot of different ways. I mean, on the political piece of it, which a lot of this is political, whether you like it or not. Like, there are women on the right who are very family oriented. And I think the Wall Street Journal did a piece about this, about sort of like the rise of this sort of MAGA mom. You know, I think the piece that people kind of missed about that was that these are women who are like, they're just as professionally engaged as the men, but they are also choosing to have many children. They are also choosing to present themselves in different ways. And I think it would be a mistake for the left to criticize that as just them sort of falling into patriarchy. Because I think that women can choose whether they are on the left or the right to do all of those things, and it should be okay. And it is okay. You know, if. If you want to have a career and have as many kids as possible, have six kids, that's great. I think there's a temptation on the left to be like, what's wrong with her? She must not really want a career. She must not really have independence or self respect. And I think that's not the case because more women than you think aspire to that, regardless of their political views. And we shouldn't make it a political thing. The choices that people make about how they want to structure their lives and their families. That's my two cents about that. I agree with. I think that is. It would be a mistake to start to put that into political categories.
- [43:06]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah, I mean, we just announced our documentary about the culture wars of American motherhood, which is exactly the point of, like, we're all being gaslit and conned because we really just want choice over on both sides. And I've launched a lot of things in my life and I've never seen a response like this over the past 24 hours because I think people are so desperate for this conversation. And it's like on the left. On the left, on all political spectrums of like, yes, yes, yes. So, you know, we don't get the things that you mentioned because they keep us divided. Lately, I've been thinking about how much of my life sits online. My passwords, my credit, my entire identity. And honestly, it just takes one breach or one scam to turn everything upside down. That's why I started using Nord Protect, an all in one identity protection service built by cybersecurity experts. Nord Protect works quietly in the background to keep you safe. It scans the dark web around the clock and alerts you if your email, phone number, or even your Social Security number shows up somewhere it should not. It tracks your credit activity and sends you real time alerts if something looks off. And if your information is ever exposed, NORD Protect tells you right away so you can lock things down fast. And here's the part that really sold me. If something does happen, they help you recover. There is coverage for identity theft, for online scams, even for cyber attacks. That gives me real peace of mind. Try Nord Protect yourself risk free with a 30 day money back guarantee. Get an exclusive 5% discount by going to nordprotect.com midlife and use the code midlife at checkout. That is nordprotect.com midlife what if the.
- [44:41]
Abby Phillip
Justice system wasn't just about punishment?
- [44:45]
Reshma Sajani
What if it could support more productive.
- [44:47]
Abby Phillip
Lives, healthier families and stronger communities? We changed the quality of life in the neighborhood. Homicides dropped 44% in the first couple of years.
- [44:56]
Reshma Sajani
I'm your host Ana Zamora and I'll show you what a better justice system.
- [45:00]
Abby Phillip
Actually looks like because it's already happening. Season two of When It Clicked from Lemonada Media is available December 10th. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [45:13]
Reshma Sajani
I want to make sure we talk about your book because I could not put it down. Your book, A Dream Deferred Jesse Jackson. What made you want to write about him and tell his story.
- [45:22]
Abby Phillip
Yeah, you know, I mean, I think this story was about the political moment that we've been in, actually, for a little while now, since I would say that the decade of Trump and Trumpism. 2016, was such a pivotal election for so many different reasons. But I think it unearthed something in our politics that really asks the question, a, are we still going to be okay doing a multiracial democracy? Like, can we really live together? Can we. Can politics work when Americans of different races and backgrounds are united? That's the first question. The second one is, as we become more economically stratified in this country, is populism rising? And as you start to ask those questions, what happened for me was that a lot of people kept saying to me, well, you can't really understand what Bernie Sanders was doing in 2016 and 2020 unless you understand what Jesse Jackson did in 1984 and 1988. And in some ways, even understanding Donald Trump and why Trump worked. You kind of have to understand Jesse Jackson and what he was trying to do three decades earlier. It was not successful in the sense that he didn't win, but it was far more successful than most people in politics thought it would be at the time. And so this was really about answering the origin story of this, I think, populist moment that we're in, and also this moment in which I think our demographic situation in this country is both being challenged, and it's also reached almost like a high watermark where black voters actually do have more power than they've ever had in the political system in this country. And can we still do this thing in the era of Trump? Can we still have a multiracial democracy where voters are not at each other's throats? Because if you get something, I don't get something. And I think Jesse Jackson envisioned a world in which you can. You can have those people holding hands and walking into the future together. And I think this. This book is about. Is about what could be.
- [47:43]
Reshma Sajani
Don't you think Trump, in some ways, actualized that vision? I mean, the amount of, like. Right. Black Latino women who are. I've spoken to, who are Trump supporters. Right. And you're kind of like, what?
- [47:55]
Abby Phillip
Isn't that paradoxical? Right. Yeah, it is, but. But it's not, when you really think about it. Because I think that what Trump did, at least rhetorically, is he talked about how everybody is being screwed over by the system. And that message was not just economic. It was also about, you know, he made it about the deep state he made it about the institutions. And this sort of outsider message really does resonate. It is very similar to what Jesse Jackson was talking about. He was running as a Democrat, but he was kind of running against Democrats. He was basically saying, the party is rigged against you, the economy is rigged against you. Washington is working for the rich and the corporations, and they need to be working for you, the urban worker and the farmer. And so, yeah, I actually do think that Trump took a version of that message and he made it work for the right, but I think he did exploit an us versus them message. That is very much not what Jesse Jackson was doing. I think the us versus them piece of it was always, well, the immigrants are taking our jobs and, you know, that type of thing. And I think that that is why it worked on the right. But on the left, I think there are just so many lessons to learn about why is it that some portion of black men, Hispanic voters, in general, men and women, Asian American voters and others, and certainly white voters, why they all resonated with this idea that Trump put on the table that America is being screwed over by the world, by the trade system, by the political establishment. And the answer to me, I think that this moment in our politics is a very anti establishment moment. People are not happy with the status quo. They do not think that the institutions that sometimes Democrats are so eager to protect, they don't like those institutions. They don't think that they are working. And they are willing to try a lot of things. They're willing to throw some spaghetti at the wall in order to see if somebody's going to make it different. And that's why when Trump came out with some of these things that everybody thought was really crazy, whether it's the tariffs or other stuff, voters were like, well, I guess try something, do something different. It's an imagination thing that I think voters are not as wedded to these systems as I think, you know, the pollsters and the consultants think that they are. And sometimes when voters think outside of the box, that's what happened. In New York, right here where I am in New York, you had Mamdani come in and he was like, we're gonna make the buses free and we're gonna do this and we're gonna do that. And everybody's like, well, that's not gonna work. And the voters said, well, we'll let him try.
- [50:49]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [50:50]
Abby Phillip
And I think that that is just. I'm not being prescriptive. I'm not saying that's the answer. I'm just saying that there's a pattern here. And if you don't learn from that pattern, you're gonna miss what the real sentiment is.
- [51:01]
Reshma Sajani
My 5 year old's voices in my head, like Peppa Pig, like, do something, right? It's like, you know what I mean? Like somebody just do something, you know. One of the other parts I loved about the book, when you talk about his relationship with Shirley Chisholm, you know, Shirley talked about how like the biggest obstacle that she faced wasn't race, but it was gender. And he was the only Democratic candidate that publicly committed to choosing a woman as his vp. Yeah, like, how did digging into these dynamics shift your understanding? Right. Of, of gender, power and coalition? Because we're still kind of living through that right now. I mean, the amount of people will be like, oh, we can't do that again. Don't put a woman on the ticket.
- [51:42]
Abby Phillip
You know, I think that, that we've gotten very overly simplistic in how we see these moments in our history. Because I think Shirley Chisholm, when I was writing that part of the book, I was really fascinated because I think the simplistic story is that Shirley Chisholm was a black woman and that the black community was behind her. And she had this historic run in 1972. And now we laud her as Shirley Chisholm. But when you really look at it at the time, she was like, these men, black and white, think that I'm a threat to them. They don't really support me. It's important to remember that the messy complexity of that, because in the moment, it's not always unity. It doesn't always look like unity. It doesn't always look like history. Sometimes it just looks like somebody who's annoyingly doing the thing that you don't want them to do. That's basically what was happening when Shirley Chisholm was running, was that the black establishment and the white establishment, they were like, lady, can you please stop? You're, you're running for president. This is not going to go anywhere. They were annoyed with her. They were annoyed with her. They didn't think that she should be doing it. And that included Jesse Jackson and people around him. And so with that context, I think sometimes you have to put your head in that, in that headspace, because there are people, you know, when you, sometimes you see people doing historic things, it just looks like somebody doing something dumb and annoying. And then really what's going to happen is that history is going to look back on it and it's going to look like history. And I think that happened with Shirley Chisholm in 1972. It happened with Jesse Jackson in 84 and 88. And Shirley Chisholm, to her credit, she, in 1984, was there on the day that Jesse Jackson announced his run for the presidency, and she introduced him. She said, I paved the way for this moment to happen. And so she was able to put aside all, you know, the hard feelings from that time period and say, this moment is what's in the best interest of the country going forward. But she recognized that politics is a. Is a messy thing, and sometimes people are not on your side, not because you're wrong, but because it's politically inconvenient for them to be on your side. And that's. She experienced that. She experienced a kind of patriarchal world that even, you know, I think this. The. The people of that generation, the civil rights generation, they had come from a bit of a patriarchy, you know, and they were kind of committed to that, in a way. And she was calling that out at a time when it wasn't popular to do that.
- [54:31]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [54:32]
Abby Phillip
And she was saying, you know, we've got to move on from this, that men, hey, men, black men included, you don't get your value from being above women in the hierarchy. And it wasn't popular when she said it in the 70s, and it didn't make her popular with people who looked like her. But it also makes her prescient and historic because she was saying something that was real and true in 1972 and, frankly, is real and true in 2025.
- [55:01]
Reshma Sajani
That's right.
- [55:02]
Abby Phillip
When it comes to women in politics.
- [55:03]
Reshma Sajani
And on that point, to close, what do you. As we enter another election cycle, what do you hope women will understand about their power as we go into it again?
- [55:13]
Abby Phillip
I think that women are so multifaceted and have the ability to engage different people in a lot of different ways. And that is a superpower of the future. If that is something that we, as women can do, then that is, I think, the thing that is the most needed going forward. And I do think that right now, women are really starting to come into true power. We are making more money than our partners, in many cases, than many men. We are running things. We are starting our own businesses. We are building political power. I think it is important for women to build political power across the political spectrum. It's not just good and okay for there to be liberal women. I think there should be independent women and conservative women. I think women need power across the political spectrum in order to use that power to make advancements that are not ideological in nature. They're just about our shared humanity and making this nation work better for all of us, for all of our families, for all of our communities. And so I think we're close to that point, to be honest. I really do. And you know what I've had a lot of people say to me that they think that America might elect a conservative woman before they elect a liberal woman. Who knows?
- [56:41]
Reshma Sajani
You heard it here. It's gonna be Ivanka Trump in 2020.
- [56:45]
Abby Phillip
Do you think that? I don't know.
- [56:46]
Reshma Sajani
You heard it here. You heard it here. My prediction, I have no idea.
- [56:49]
Abby Phillip
But I think that that could be true. And if it is, fine. But I think that it will allow us to really see and to experience that when women attain power, it can look a lot of different ways. And also when that happens, we are not going to be immune from criticism or immune from critique. I think that actually maybe at the end of the day, what might be good for us when we might actually be reaching some semblance of political equality, when we're not walking on eggshells around gender.
- [57:28]
Reshma Sajani
I agree. Or we're not just available for just one party.
- [57:31]
Abby Phillip
Yeah.
- [57:32]
Reshma Sajani
I think it will be interesting to see how that plays out for the issues that we're. We're fighting for. Like child care is not a political issue. Paid leave is not a political issue. Maternal health is not a political issue. Right. It should not be a partisan issue.
- [57:43]
Abby Phillip
It should not be. Yeah. Right. And we can have debates about how about how to achieve that thing. Those things and the fact of the debate, I think will move us forward. I. I hope at least I agree.
- [57:54]
Reshma Sajani
Well, I could talk to you for 5,000 years, but I will say literally. Yeah, literally. You probably have to get on set soon, so thank you. This was amazing. I really appreciate this conversation.
- [58:04]
Abby Phillip
Thank you so much. Great to talk to you.
- [58:05]
Reshma Sajani
Keep shining. A huge thank you to Abby for sharing her wisdom and her kindness with us today. I'm so glad we got to have this conversation. You can catch Abby on CNN's Newsnight weekdays at 10pm Eastern. And be sure to pick up a copy of her new book, A Dream Deferred Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power. Before you go, thank you for listening to my so Called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content you can't hear anywhere else. Like Temby, Locke and I sharing our tips for unlocking your creativity in midlife? Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com My so called Midlife is brought to you by Moms First. Come see what we're all about at MomsFirst US. I'm your host and Executive producer, Reshma Sajani. Our senior Producer Producer is Katie Eckstec Cordova, our producer is Beth Rowe and our Sound engineer and editor is Mary Kelly of Sweater Weather. Our theme music was composed by Ivan Kuryev and performed by Ivan with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Scheduling support from Cindy Cook. Sales and distribution is by Lemonada Media. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know what you're doing in Midlife. Follow My so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership and be sure to follow me, rashmistajani and moms first on Instagram, LinkedIn, and substack. Thanks and we'll be back next week. Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium. On Apple Podcasts, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe. Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads With Lemonada Premium, are you looking for.
- [60:32]
Abby Phillip
Ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast.
- [60:46]
Reshma Sajani
My co host and happiness guinea pig.
- [60:48]
Abby Phillip
Is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.
- [60:50]
Reshma Sajani
That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and.
- [60:56]
Abby Phillip
Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.