Gretchen Rubin (4:49)

You know, this is. The funny thing about me is in a lot of ways, I feel like a beginner. I feel like I'm just starting. And it's so strange because I know people who, they're not retiring yet, but they're start to talk about like, well, what would this look like? Or, you know, and I'm like, I feel like I'm just starting.

Reshma Sajani (5:04)

So did that immediately happen for you or did you ever go through that period of like, fuck, I'm getting old, this sucks. What's happening, you know, like, did you go through that period at all or did you go straight from pre midlife to midlife and feel like you're starting?

Gretchen Rubin (5:19)

Well, I, I did go through right before I wrote like the kind of the inspiration for my book, the happiness project was I did have a moment of kind of reckoning where I. I was thinking, what do I want from life anyway? And I thought, well, I wanna be happy, but I don't spend any time thinking about whether I am happy. Is it even possible to make yourself happy? Or what would you do? And so I would have that. And that was midlife in that I was like, I am a grownup now. I have two kids. I married. I have. You know. And then it is also true, like, I'm going through. My younger daughter left for college. And so my next book is gonna be about the empty nest, which I'm rebranding as the open Door. Because nobody likes the phrase empty nest, so I'm using that also as a reck. So I think about it a lot, but I. I guess I'm still grappling with what it all means.

Reshma Sajani (6:07)

Yeah, that's a really important point you just made. Because I do have a lot of friend. Like, I'm an older mom, right. So my kids are like 5 and 10. So I am like in it.

Gretchen Rubin (6:16)

Rush hour of life.

Reshma Sajani (6:18)

Yeah. And I was having like, a coffee with a friend whose kids are just left and are in college. And she said exactly what you said. Like, I am, like, making new friends, like, coming into, like, New York City and having coffee with people that I really want to talk to. And I'm staring at her and be like, wow, Like, I don't even know what that feels like. So in some ways, I guess when we think about happiness, I guess it depends on what are the other things that you. That are happening in your life and, like, how much what's your space of time? Cause I think time and happiness must have a connection.

Gretchen Rubin (6:55)

Time and also control. So when they look at, like, what happier people have, they have more control. And this is one of the reasons why something like money matters. Because money gives you more control. And people have a lot of control of their time, are happier. People who can have control of their work so they can do their work in their own way, are happier. And, like, we just all know it. It's like something that we crave as human. We crave it too much. Right. We have to constantly say to ourselves, don't try to control everything, because you can't. And so I think that you're in a stage where, like, everything is being taxed to the uttermost. And then one of the things that happens with this empty nest, open door phase is there are more possibilities that open up. We do start to have different kinds of control. But that itself is very distressing for some people. Like, having all this time.

Reshma Sajani (7:47)

Yeah. What do you do with it?

Gretchen Rubin (7:48)

Or they don't have a sense of purpose anymore. So they used to go through their days full of, like, full of energy and purpose and feeling like, well, what I do really matters. And then they're just like, but now what am I for? You know? But one of the things I've really seen and is with kind of happiness generally is like, we're all so different. You know, we have different temperaments. We have different strengths, different weaknesses, different aims, different values, different temptations.

Reshma Sajani (8:13)

Yeah.

Gretchen Rubin (8:13)

So we each have to figure it out for ourselves. And that's. I mean, that's like. You talk about this all the time on your podcast. Like, everybody's going through their own. That's why it's so interesting to hear what other people are going through. Because then you think, maybe I'm not alone with this.

Reshma Sajani (8:26)

Yeah. Why did you get obsessed with happiness?

Gretchen Rubin (8:29)

Well, really, when I started, it was just a question for me. I didn't think that I would start writing about happiness. And this happens to me a lot. Like, I will get really super interested in a subject and just go off and do a ton of research. Like, I did this thing on color. I was like, for a couple years, I was just, like, so fascinated by the subject of color. But so this is something that's happened to me since I was, like, 8 years old. And so when I first had this question, what do I want from life? I want to be happy. Can I make myself happier? I ran out to the library, got a huge stack of books about contemporary science, philosophy, pop culture, whatever I can get my hands on, memoirs, novels, anything to do with it, and just started reading and taking notes. But this is something that I do all the time for things. I didn't foresee that it would be my book subject because at that time, I was finishing up my biography of John F. Kennedy. But the more I learned, the more I wanted to learn. And there were so many things that I wanted to try and experiment with. And so finally I was like, wow, this should be my next book. And then it just turns out that this subject is so vast and fascinating and kind of points in so many directions that I more or less every. Everything I've done since has been like, oh, well, if you're writing about happiness, you're going to be talking about habits, because habits are really important for happiness. So I wrote a book about habits so that everything is sort of led from that Central idea.

Reshma Sajani (9:50)

So you never really define what happiness is. Why is that?

Gretchen Rubin (9:53)

Well, Reshma, you and I went to law school, and I'm sure you also have happy memories of spending an entire semester, you know, arguing about the definition of a tort. You know, what is a contract? And I just was like, I don't want to define. I mean, happiness is even more hard to define. There's something like 17 academic definitions of happiness. Really? Yeah. So I'm like, for a scientist, has to be very specific in what they mean. But I think we can have our own definitions. Peace, joy, bliss, contentment, well, being, life, satisfaction. Like, everybody can have their own definition. I think what's interesting, the more interesting question is whatever it is that you consider happiness to be, how can you make yourself happier in your everyday life next week, next month, next year? What could you do to be happier? Whatever happiness means to you. Because I think if you try to define it, you can get very caught up in arguing about definitions. And I just. I had my fun with that in law school, and I'm not interested in that anymore. I don't. I don't think it's particularly useful.

Reshma Sajani (10:56)

I love that. So in some ways, what you're saying is, like, the goal is to be happier than you were yesterday.

Gretchen Rubin (11:01)

100%. It's. It's a process. It's moving in a direction. Because what is. What would it mean to be happy? Could you. Could you be happy all the time? No. Would you want to be happy all the time? No. It's. It's like, given your circumstances and your temperament and everything that's true about you, are you as happy as you can be? Probably not. So what could you do to be happier?

Reshma Sajani (11:25)

You know, it is true that this I think a lot about, am I happy? Why aren't I happy? Like, I. Like, midlife has had me really live in my brain, you know? Like, for example, I think I'm coming off of a period where I'm just burnt out. And so, like, every social interaction that is more than three people feels just really, really. And then I start feeling like there's something wrong with me. Right. And so what do you think about? Why is it that during this time period in midlife that we really are thinking about happiness in a way that maybe we did it when we were younger?

Gretchen Rubin (12:04)

I think that we do. I think for different people, it hits at different times, but you have these periods of reflection when you're sort of thinking, what does it all mean? Have I made a wrong choice? Why is this my life? How did I get here? Is this my beautiful house? You know, all those questions and midlife is a time where because of all lot of changes that are going on, it is often a time of reckoning where people are thinking about it. But one of the things I think is helpful to people when you're sort of in one of these stages is to identify the problem. So a lot of times there are. People use words like I'm overwhelmed, I'm burned out, I'm flooded by anxiety. But the problem is those are very vague observations. They don't really point you in any direction. And so what I always do for myself when I'm sort of having these thoughts is to say, well, why? So you're feeling burned out. Well, why? Well, maybe you've just taken off too many responsibilities and you just literally don't have enough time to do a good job on everything. And so you feel like you're sort of half assing it and that's a bad feeling. Or maybe you can get all your work done, but it's crowding out other really important priorities in your life. Or, or maybe somebody, something bad is happening to somebody close to you and it's preoccupying you and it's just like draining your battery because you're thinking about it all the time, even though there's nothing you can do about it.

Reshma Sajani (13:20)

The world's so fucked up right now.

Gretchen Rubin (13:22)

Or you're thinking, there's so much suffering and injustice in the world, I feel powerless to stop it. Like, what can I do? But it's like all of these things are different and what you would do would be different for all of them. If you're feeling burned out because of the injustice of the world, get involved. What can you do? Action is the antidote to anxiety. What can you do to put your values into the world? Because for almost every that is something that will make you feel more connected to other people who share your values. So you would take action. On the other hand, if you're feeling burned out because you're working really hard and then you stay up till 3am like binge watching old episodes of Mad Men because you feel like you need to do something fun. And so you're only getting four and a half hours of sleep a night, then I would say what you need to do is to turn off the TV and go to sleep.

Reshma Sajani (14:05)

Yeah, and go to sleep.

Gretchen Rubin (14:06)

Because so when you identify the problem, it points to a solution.

Reshma Sajani (14:09)

How do you do that?

Gretchen Rubin (14:10)

You just say like, well, why? I'm feeling burned out. Well, why?

Reshma Sajani (14:13)

Like. Like, let me ask you. But. But how. Like, I. I think that is. You're very introspective. I'm introspective. So, like. But when I get to the how, it's often, like, I have to journal or I have to, like, go on a walk by myself with a certain music, Right?

Gretchen Rubin (14:29)

Yeah.

Reshma Sajani (14:29)

And I let myself, you know, I mean, I give myself the space and the time and the quiet, but I. I normally have to. Or do one of those two things. It used to be like, I have to call a certain friend, you know, I mean, who could be like, I'm just not feeling. I'm not in a great.

Gretchen Rubin (14:42)

Like.

Reshma Sajani (14:42)

And then she'll, like, figure it out for me. But often, you know, like, I think again that we'll talk about friendships later, because that's another thing. But, like, what would you recommend as a way to kind of help people hone in on the thing that's really bothering them?

Gretchen Rubin (14:53)

Well, I think one of the things to do is think about the past. Like, what has worked for you in the past. When do you get your moments of insight? Like, for a lot of people, it's a shower. Like, taking a real. Like taking a long shower or a long bath. Like, you kind of. You're having a sensory experience. You're disconnected from everything else. You're just sort of like the water seems to kind of run. It seems to wash your thoughts clean. Like, so. Walking in nature is a good one. I love wandering around a museum. I go to the Metropolitan Museum every day. And that's a lot of times when like, things.

Reshma Sajani (15:21)

Oh, wow, you do, Gretchen.

Gretchen Rubin (15:23)

Yeah. I'm so lucky. I live within walking distance.

Reshma Sajani (15:26)

Every day you go, you wander around.

Gretchen Rubin (15:27)

Yeah, except for Wednesdays. Cause it's closed on Wednesday. Yeah. But I go and I just wander around.

Reshma Sajani (15:31)

That's your thinking time. That's when you come up with these brilliant ideas.

Gretchen Rubin (15:33)

I just daydream, you know, I'm just like. It's undirected thought. But, like, think. Well, when do I do my good thinking? And then can. Maybe I need to have more of that in my life. Like, if I feel like, oh, I really, like, I feel like I really come back to myself when I'm walking in nature. But I only really walk in nature, like once a month. Maybe it's like, okay, well, that is something that I can do as a first step to try to help me get in touch. Maybe it's cooking a lot of times. I mean, I wrote a book, Life in Five Senses. That's all about connecting with the senses and a lot of times pulling in a physical experience. Like, you talked about listening to a certain kind of music. Maybe it's a sound bath or a massage.

Reshma Sajani (16:12)

Sound bats are my jam, but they're.

Gretchen Rubin (16:15)

Really good for thinking, right? Because you're sort of. You're in place. You're just kind of open.

Reshma Sajani (16:19)

It just resets me.

Gretchen Rubin (16:20)

Exactly.

Reshma Sajani (16:21)

I don't know what it is, but it literally almost like when my dog was dying, it was like, the most painful thing I had gone through. And it was just. I needed to go, like, at least once or twice a week just to.

Gretchen Rubin (16:34)

Like, there you go.

Reshma Sajani (16:35)

Reset my brain and my heart.

Gretchen Rubin (16:37)

But so I think part of it is, like, you knew, this is something that will help me. Let me reach for this tool. But no tool fits every hand. And so you need to think like, well, what is it? And I think a lot of times, for when people are like, I have no idea, I would say, well, think about the past. Like you're saying it was when my dog died. This was so helpful to me. Think about things in the past. Like what? Like, I love going to a library and just like, wandering around the shelves of a library. And I'm. I've been fortunate in my life. Like, all the. A lot of places where I go have open stacks where you can really wander among the open shelves of a library, which is becoming increasingly rare. But there's nothing to me that's like, more calming, more optimistic, more reassuring, more hopeful. And it's like, okay, then go do that. You know? But I think sometimes we're so overwhelmed that we don't even think. Like, okay, what could I do that would put me in a place where I could reflect and then maybe think about what needs to change or what do I need to do differently that would support whatever I'm going through, given that I'm having this. I'm feeling anxious, I'm feeling drained. I'm feeling burned out. Because there could be so many things causing that.

Reshma Sajani (17:42)

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Gretchen Rubin (24:56)

Oh, so am I.

Reshma Sajani (24:58)

Of course.

Gretchen Rubin (24:58)

Yes.

Reshma Sajani (25:00)

Why is it important to know our tendencies to become happier?

Gretchen Rubin (25:03)

Okay, can I explain the four tendencies? Yes, please. Okay, so I'm gonna explain the four, and then I think it will become clear why it's really helpful thing to know for your happiness. And I'm gonna explain these four, but they are so obvious. Once you know them, you can spot your friends, spot your family members. Like they're all over the place. Like they're really easy to see once you know what they are. Okay, so what it looks at is something very narrow that sounds boring, but turns out to be really interesting, which is how do you respond to. And all of us face two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations, like a work deadline, and inner expectations, like your own desire to get back into journaling. So depending on whether you meet or resist, outer and inner expectations, that's what makes you an upholder, a questioner. Obliger, Rebel. So in your mind, imagine like a Venn diagram, like making a diamond shape like four interlocking circles. So upholders are people like you and me who readily meet both outer and inner expectations. We meet the work deadline, we keep the New Year's resolution. Much fuss. We want to know what other people expect from us. But our expectations for ourselves are just as important. We can be rigid, but we don't need a lot of supervision or accountability. We're like self starters, very focused on execution. So the motto of the upholder is discipline is my freedom.

Reshma Sajani (26:23)

It's true. It's true.

Gretchen Rubin (26:25)

Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. They're focused on reasons, justifications. They tend to love research. So they're making everything an inner expectation. If it meets their inner standard, they will do it, no problem. If it fails their inner standard, they will push back. So they sometimes have analysis paralysis. When their desire for perfect information makes it hard for them to move forward, they're often told that they ask too many questions. They are the people that are like, why are we going to do this? And so their motto is all comply. If you convince me why, Then there are obligers. This is the biggest tendency for both men and women. You either are an obliger or you have many obligers in your life. These are the people who readily meet outer expectations but struggle to meet inner expectations. So these are the people who say, why is it I can keep my promises to other people, but I can't keep my promises to myself? I never let anyone down at work. Why do I let myself down? This is because even to meet an inner expectation, obligers must, must have outer accountability. And that's the solution for obligers who are like, why can't I read a book? It's like, you know, because you need outer accountability. Join a book group. If you can't exercise on your own. Work out with a trainer. Work out with a friend who's annoyed if you don't show up. Take your dog for a run who's so disappointed if she doesn't get to go for a run. Raise money for a charity. Think of your duty to be a role model for other people. Obligers make excellent leaders, team members, friends, family members, because they are the people that go the extra mile. I have talked to employers who want to screen for obligers because they only want to hire obligers.

Reshma Sajani (28:11)

Interesting.

Gretchen Rubin (28:12)

So their motto is, you can count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally, rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. This is the smallest group, they want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do, they can do anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And typically they don't tell themselves what to do. Like they don't sign up for the 10am spin class on Saturday because they think, I don't know what I'm gonna wanna do on Saturday. And just the idea that someone's expecting me to show up is gonna annoy me. So their motto is, you can't make me and neither can I.

Reshma Sajani (28:54)

So. And it's good to know where you fit because that will help you figure out how to be happier.

Gretchen Rubin (28:59)

Yes.

Reshma Sajani (28:59)

Right. Cause like, you should go towards who.

Gretchen Rubin (29:01)

You are a hundred percent. No. And this is the thing is, a lot of times obligers are frustra because they're like, I wanna exercise. It's such a priority for me. Why can't I do it? What's wrong with me? I don't have willpower, I must be lazy. I'm not a real grownup. And I'm like, no, you just need external accountability, which is extremely common. And there's a million ways to create outer accountability once you know that that's what you need. Whereas with a rebel, if they're like, oh, everybody keeps telling me to sign up for this class. I'd be like, wait, that often doesn't work for rebels. They don't like to feel trapped like that. Maybe instead of signing up for an exercise class, you like get a pass. So you can go to like five different gyms in the city. And then you just do what you feel like when like you' wake up in the morning, you're like, I feel like, I feel like lifting weights today. And you just go do it. Because they tend to love spontaneity and like choice and freedom and not feeling trapped.

Reshma Sajani (29:46)

So on that point, like, how do you think about perfection and productivity and how it might get in the way of happiness? Like to me, this, I am the person who schedules my workouts a month in advance.

Gretchen Rubin (29:55)

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. That's the upholder.

Reshma Sajani (29:58)

The idea that like I could wake up and be like, how do I feel? Should I guide it or not? It's like, that's just. But it does get in the way of me feeling of my happiness. Because I'll be honest, I'll wake up and not feel great and make myself go to a berries class and then I feel worse after.

Gretchen Rubin (30:16)

So this is tightening. And the way you're describing it is very upholder. This is upholder tightening. And that's when upholders. The rules get tighter and tighter and tighter. And so, like, I'm one of these people who doesn't eat sugar or really any carbs. I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so jealous.

Reshma Sajani (30:33)

That's all I eat is sugar.

Gretchen Rubin (30:35)

I was pretty consistent. I was pretty rigorous about it, but over time, I've gotten far more rigorous about it, which is great for me. It wouldn't be great for everybody. But the rules have gotten tighter, and I just have to recognize that or. I remember talking to a medical student, and she was like, I used to never review my notes before class. Then I sometimes reviewed, and now I feel like every single time I have to review my notes before class, even though I know that for some classes it's not even helpful. And I'm like, that's tightening. Which is when you kind of become trapped by your own paperwork. And so you need. Need to really mindfully step back and say, why am I doing these things? They are not serving me. Like, let me, like, not just mindlessly go, like, raise and raise and raise my expectations for myself, but really be in control of it. Use my inner expectations to control that.

Reshma Sajani (31:24)

Yeah, that's a really good piece of advice, which is like, when is my discipline not serving me?

Gretchen Rubin (31:32)

Exactly?

Reshma Sajani (31:32)

Because I think it's like, to be honest, it's like an identity trait that I'm very proud of. Right? Like, that I have the kind of discipline.

Gretchen Rubin (31:39)

Discipline.

Reshma Sajani (31:39)

You know what I mean? That, yeah. Makes me feel like I can accomplish anything, you know, except. Except I. I can't give up sugar. I eat way too many sweets.

Gretchen Rubin (31:48)

Ah, well, that's a whole.

Reshma Sajani (31:50)

Never seen a bakery I didn't like.

Gretchen Rubin (31:51)

You know what I mean? Yeah, well, I haven't. I haven't. Bonkers, sweet tooth. And that's why I gave up sugar, because I was like, I can't have just a little. It's so hard. It's so tiring to just, like, constantly be trying to just have a little. And then I'm like, but I could have none. And having none is so easy, and having a little is so hard.

Reshma Sajani (32:24)

As I get older, I keep catching myself thinking I should go to the doctor more, you know, to deal with things like sleep, trouble, feeling bloated after certain meals, and chronic fatigue. But it can be tough to get to the doctor. I want to keep myself healthy, but the system makes it impossible to find the right doc for my needs until I found ZocDoc. They made it so easy to find the right fit and book an appointment fast directly on their website. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. With Zocdoc. You can book in network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health to dental health, primary care to urgent care, and more. And you can even filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby, are a good fit for your medical needs, and are highly rated by verified patients. Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings. Choose a time slot that works for you and click to instantly book a visit. You can even make appointments typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking. I've even found same day appointments. Getting older means we have to stay on top of our preventative health. Even more so, I needed to find a primary doctor that I could trust and who was qualified to help with menopause symptoms. With ZocDoc, I was able to filter for primary care doctors within my area. With high rated reviews, I was able to finally find reliable care within my reach at any time. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com midlife to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's Zocdoc.com midlife Zocdoc.com midlife from fitness routines to mental resilience, navigating personal goals to tackling burnout, we all need a little help being human. That's what the Life Kit podcast from NPR is here to do. If you're looking to move with more intention or just need thoughtful guidance on living better, Life Kit delivers strategies to help you make meaningful, sustainable changes. Life doesn't come with a manual, but every day you're making choices, some big, some small, that shape the direction of your life. Life Kit offers real stories, relevant insights and clear takeaways to help you meet those decision making moments with confidence and clarity. I loved their recent episode about plant protein. We had lots of conversations on the show about what you should eat in midlife and this LifeKit episode really got me thinking about incorporating more beans and nuts nuts into my diet to help with building muscle. I listen to Life Kit because I get to hear thoughtful conversations that unpack the emotional and practical side of personal wellness. Actionable guidance I can actually use. No fluff, no judgment, trusted voices and expert advice to help take me to the next level, however big or small. Get help tackling common issues like relationships, finances, parenting and your career. Then walk away with a game plan you can implement right away. Life Kit isn't just another podcast about self improvement. It's about understanding how to live a little better. Starting now. Listen now to the Life Kit podcast from NPR.

Gretchen Rubin (35:33)

Today's episode is sponsored by NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast. Money can be confusing. Should you invest in ETFs, get a travel rewards credit card, buy a house or just build a really fancy pillow.

Reshma Sajani (35:46)

Form that could work no shame and pillow fort game. Or you could just tune in for clear research backed financial insights.

Gretchen Rubin (35:55)

I'm Sean Pyles, a certified financial planner professional.

Reshma Sajani (35:57)

And I'm Elizabeth Ayola. We're the hosts of NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast where you bring the money questions and we bring trustworthy information backed by NerdWallet's expert analysis.

Gretchen Rubin (36:09)

Our nerds do the research so you don't have to. We'll help you understand your options so you can make the best decision for your situation. From optimizing your investments and maximizing credit card rewards to making big money moves with confidence. Whether you're planning for retirement, weighing a big purchase, or just want to make your money work harder for you, we've got insights that you can use in real life.

Reshma Sajani (36:31)

So if you want practical, straightforward and actually useful financial knowledge, plus a little bit of fun along the way, follow NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast on your favorite.

Gretchen Rubin (36:40)

Podcast app, Future youe Will. Thank you.

Reshma Sajani (36:45)

Hi, I'm Jessica St. Clair. And I'm June Diane Rayfiel and we are two friends trying to survive the chaos and celebrate the joy that life throws our way.

Gretchen Rubin (36:55)

And we do it every week on our podcast the Deep Dive. Sometimes we dig into the deep stuff.

Reshma Sajani (37:00)

Like how I communicate with my dead best friend. And sometimes we give bad advice based off a TikTok I saw. And we're not going to apologize for that. Absolutely not. You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll hire a psychic medium. Join us, won't you? Listen to the Deep Dive wherever you get your podcasts from Lemonada Media. So you wrote a new book, Secrets of Adulthood, and it felt like a love letter to, like the messy truth of being a grown up.

Gretchen Rubin (37:44)

Yes. Well, you're all about adulthood.

Reshma Sajani (37:47)

I know I am. I am, though. I like to dress like I'm a teenage girl. So. Different conversation. What is, what is adulthood to you?

Gretchen Rubin (37:56)

I have no idea. I just feel like you're constantly. Like, it's something that I don't know. I think there are only adults when you're a child that when you're a child, there are grownups. There are adults who know what's going on and what to do and are confident and sure. And then when you get to be a grown up, you're like, oh, man, these people don't know what they're doing and neither do I. You know what I mean? It's like, what the heck? No. With Secrets of Adulthood, what I wanted to do. There are lessons that we learn with time and experience. There are things that you learn the hard way. And I, I. There aren't things that, like mantras that I will tell myself that I repeat over and over. Like, working is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination. I have to remind myself of that, like, once a week.

Reshma Sajani (38:42)

What does that mean?

Gretchen Rubin (38:43)

Well, here's something interesting about my collection of secrets of adulthood. So I wrote them, but now that they're out in the world, some of them, people will tell me that they have a different interpretation, which is fascinating. Okay, for me, the secret of adulthood. Working is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination. Is like, sometimes I say I'm working because I'm really procrastinating. Like, for me, it's often research. Like, oh, I'm just researching this subject. It's like, okay, you are just having fun on the Internet going down rabbit holes and pretending that it's serving your writing, where in fact, no. And so, like, am I really working on what I need to be working on right now? Working is a dangerous form of procrastination. But somebody else said to me, no, the way I read that is that sometimes I don't wanna do the hard work of being home and dealing with all the relationships and the chaos and everything that's going on at home. So I stay at work. Working is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination. And I was like, that's just as useful an interpretation. But it was so interesting to me. Yeah.

Reshma Sajani (39:47)

So when you said it. I'm a workaholic. And I often think I'm a workaholic. Cause I just don't want to go deep in, you know what I mean, and deal with the. So, like, working is a form of procrastination on really getting to know myself.

Gretchen Rubin (39:58)

Ah, there you go. See, that's interesting. There it is. So that's what's fun about these Secrets of adulthood is that. Or like, one of the secrets of adulthood is we care for many people we don't particularly care for. And then somebody put a twist on it. He's a writer, and he was, like, thinking of people who write reviews on Amazon. He was like, we care about many people we don't particularly care about. Meaning, I don't really care about these Amazon reviews. But on the other hand, I do care.

Reshma Sajani (40:25)

I do.

Gretchen Rubin (40:26)

We care about people we don't particularly care about. And I thought, well, both are true.

Reshma Sajani (40:30)

The. One of your most popular ones is the Place that Hurts isn't always the place that's injured. Yes.

Gretchen Rubin (40:37)

Well, see, this is kind of the burnout.

Reshma Sajani (40:38)

Elaborate on that.

Gretchen Rubin (40:39)

Well, this is like the burnout thing, which is why it's really important to identify the problem. Because you might say, like, oh, I'm really burned out because of X, Y, Z, but really it's because you're not getting enough sleep. Or you might say something like, oh, this happens sometimes. I'm really unhappy in my marriage. There's all this stuff wrong with my spouse because I don't want to deal with facing my own regrets about certain choices I've made in my career.

Reshma Sajani (41:03)

Right.

Gretchen Rubin (41:03)

You know, or vice versa. I mean, sometimes we change what seems easier to change than what actually needs to change. I have a friend, and she was here in New York City, and she was telling me, oh, I'm gonna buy a new apartment. I'm looking around. So I saw her six months later, and I was like, oh, how's it going with the apartment hunting? And she said, oh, I decided just to stay where I am. You know, I thought I wanted outdoor space, but I realized I actually want a husband. And I was like, that's good. Right? The place that hurts isn't always the place that's injured. She was telling herself she needed a new apartment, but actually she wanted a romantic relationship.

Reshma Sajani (41:38)

Yeah. When I was thinking about what you. About this line, the thing is, a wise woman always said to me, you know, sometimes you need to question the stories that you tell yourself.

Gretchen Rubin (41:47)

Oh, a thousand. It's such good advice. They see, that's the secret of adulthood right there.

Reshma Sajani (41:51)

Yeah. Right. I mean, and when I think about this is often in the form of, like, relationships with your parents. Like, there's a lot of hurt or trauma that we hold in the way we were raised or what we think our parents did or didn't do. And sometimes, you know, for myself. I'll just speak for myself, like, sometimes it's a story that I told myself. Right. I'm really strong and independent because Blah. Right. And questioning some of those in adulthood, I think has been. Been profoundly important for me and also mending my relationships.

Gretchen Rubin (42:22)

Well, one of the things. I mean, contemporary scientists and ancient philosophers agree that if you had to pick one of the keys to a happy life, and maybe the most important element of a happy life is strong relationships with other people. And so if there is a relationship that you can honestly repair, that is huge for happiness.

Reshma Sajani (42:43)

Yeah, I wanna talk about that. Cause our last conversation was about friendship.

Gretchen Rubin (42:46)

Yes.

Reshma Sajani (42:47)

And like, it is a conversation in midlife that I have a lot with people and people, you know. Right. Who listen to show, talk to me about is like, there's. Friendships are harder in this stage of life for. For numerous reasons. Right. Because you change, you know, I mean, and you're not connected in the same way. You have different priorities, different things that are happening. Mel Robbins would say you move away and you're separate, you're scattered. Right. And so, like, sometimes you're not living in the same places. What have you learned about friendships in midlife?

Gretchen Rubin (43:22)

Yeah, no, there's a lot of pressure on friendships in midlife. But it's really, really important to think about it because it is an incredibly important aspect of a happier life. And just as somebody who's thinking about the empty nest, one of the things that people regret the most as they enter into that stage of life is that they haven't built friendships. Right. And so then they're, like, looking around and they're like, wow, I don't have any friends. And so they. They need to then work on it. And it's a lot easier to be working on it. You know, the best time to make a friend is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. But it's awfully. It's really nice if you started 20.

Reshma Sajani (43:57)

Years ago, is it about making new friends or is it about keeping friends? Because what I hear a lot from is like, it's like, well, we just go to part. You know what I mean? And you feel like. Cause I thought where you were going, too, was like, you know, there's more pressure. Like, I think a lot more people feel like they're cleaning house at this. You know what I mean, at this point in their lives.

Gretchen Rubin (44:16)

You mean in a positive way?

Reshma Sajani (44:18)

Well, they would say it's in a positive way that, like, you know, they're letting go of relationships that just don't work because people have kind of changed and evolved. And then some people would argue, like, no, actually, this is the time where you really, like, I'm in the tendency of. More like, when I make a friend, you're my friend forever. And so even though we've drifted or you've changed, like, I'm gonna make the effort to really keep this friendship in life. Like, maybe even keep the friendship at the expense of what's good for me.

Gretchen Rubin (44:44)

Right. Well, this is something where you really have to think about yourself. Because I think different people kind of tip in different ways. Like, it sounds like you tip maybe too much to hanging on to a relationship.

Reshma Sajani (44:55)

Whereas I'm, like, very loyal.

Gretchen Rubin (44:57)

And then some people are just kind of like, out of sight, out of mind, you know, I've had a few friends like that where I'm like, huh? They just moved away. And like, that was it. But, you know, it's like that old song, make new friends, but keep the old. One is silver and the other is gold. There is something about both kinds of friends. Old friends, deep, intimate friends. People that you've known since childhood. People that you knew in college. There is an intimacy there, you know, I have four friends from, like, grade school that I get together every once in a while. And we will spend, like, three hours each going from person to person. How's your mother? How's your father? What happened to your dog? What's your sister doing? Like, we care deeply because we've known them for so long, it almost doesn't even matter. Like, there's a deep sense of rootedness and connectedness there. But they're all over the country, right? I don't see them every day. We also need friends that are nearby. And, like, 30 minutes of travel time, however you're traveling seems to be significant. So. So I talk to a lot of men like this. I'm like, do you have good friends? He's like, I have the best friends. We are so tight. I'm like, does anybody live in your state? Oh, no, no, no. Nobody lives near me. It's really important to have big groups of those old friends. But then you want to have friends that are nearby.

Reshma Sajani (46:16)

People that you can go grab a drink with or dinner with. And it's just easy, right?

Gretchen Rubin (46:20)

Exactly. And you want to think about that. But one thing that's really helpful to think about is it's got a horrible name. It's called triadic closure.

Reshma Sajani (46:27)

Okay, tell me.

Gretchen Rubin (46:28)

Okay, so the way I put it in Secrets of Adulthood is one of the best ways to make friends is to make friends with the friends of your friends. So, like, Reshma, if you were like, hey, I have a friend. Like, let's all get coffee. That is a really good way for me to meet a new person and make a new friend. Because now we're a triangle. Like, we're. And what helps with relationships is density, that it's not like a hub and spokes and it's people all being interconnected. And that gives us a greater sense of belonging. And it's a more stable way of having friendships because it's like there's just more flow to it. And it's like, I go to your house and she's there, and then you cut like, whatever, and like you're keeping me posted on what's going on with him. And so that's another thing to think about. Another thing to think about is sometimes it's easier to make friends when you're working with somebody or working on a project with somebody than just trying to socialize together. So if you're finding it hard to socialize or you feel like you feel awkward doing that, like volunteer for something or like always go to the dog park at the same time so that you're like, oh, we're both playing with our dogs, but I see you day after day. And now we can have a conversation and now we can become friends. So you're doing something together?

Reshma Sajani (47:37)

Well, as a workaholic, a lot of my friends, my work friends. So my husband teases me and says it doesn't count if you pay them. So I don't know about that. Oh, yeah, no, I'm just teasing. I do. Some of the closest friends in my life are people that I've worked with. You know what I mean? Because you're, you're, you've gone through it together. And I, and, and we stay in touch of when we're not. We are close after we've stopped working together. So as we close, any kind of last lessons you want our listeners to both take away from your most recent book or all of your work?

Gretchen Rubin (48:12)

Well, one of my secrets of adulthood from the book and that I also think is relevant to happiness generally in midlife in particular perhaps, is that we want to accept ourselves and also expect more from ourselves. So we want to show ourselves compassion and recognize kind of like who we really are, not some fantasy self version of ourselves. But we also want to push ourselves out of our comfort zone and like grow and learn and stretch and do things that maybe feel hard. And so it's just a tension in a happy life. And it's certainly at midlife, which is a time of acceptance and also growth, you hope. And so I think that's a helpful way to think about navigating the choppy waters of midlife.

Reshma Sajani (48:58)

Yeah, I have a lot of friends that are kind of picking up a new hobby or learning something new. Right. This, I think this idea, it's really energizing. Really energizing. Yeah. My, my, my summer goal is to is to identify something and go with it.

Gretchen Rubin (49:15)

Oh, fun. What a great. You got any candidates?

Reshma Sajani (49:20)

I don't know. I don't know what it is yet. But I'm going to be something it's going to be.

Gretchen Rubin (49:24)

So I'll be so curious to hear.

Reshma Sajani (49:26)

Yeah, I'll tell you.

Gretchen Rubin (49:27)

Okay, keep me posted.

Reshma Sajani (49:29)

Well, Gretchen is a great conversation. I'm so grateful for the world is grateful for your wisdom.

Gretchen Rubin (49:35)

Well, thank you. It's always so fun to talk to you.

Reshma Sajani (49:49)

Thank you. Thank you so much to Gretchen Rubin for talking to me today. Her latest book is called the Secrets of Simple Truths for Our Complex Lives. One last thing, thank you for listening to my so Called Midlife. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like even more from my conversation with Gretchen. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcast Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app that's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. Thanks and we'll be back next week. I'm your host Reshma Sajani. Our associate producer is Isara Acevez and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kurayev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oja Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye. Care of hey my so Called Midlife listeners. Our network Lemonada is working on a new call and advice show hosted by a remarkable family therapist. One of her main goals is to remind you that you are the expert on your child, even if it doesn't feel that way when you're faced with uncomfortable conversations, meltdowns, and tough decisions. But as a parent, I know we sometimes face challenges that feel too awkward or just too overwhelming to handle on your own. So if you're a parent of a child between 6 and 21 and you're facing one of those things, why don't you send in a question? Our host might offer you real time advice on anything from mental health challenges to big family secrets, from dating to social media. Whatever it is, we want to help reach out @bitly parentingpodcastquestions that's bitly parenting podcastquestions.