Mystery Wire with George Knapp (Classic) Summoners Podcast

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Mystery Wire with George Knapp (Classic) – Summoners Podcast"

Host: George Knapp
Co-host: Ron Futrell
Guests: "Jim," "Mike," and "Alpha" (pseudonyms)
Date: July 21, 2026
Main Theme:
Exploring the phenomenon of "UFO Summoning"—the practice of attempting to invite UFOs/UAPs (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena) using conscious intention—and discussing personal experiences, scientific questions, and the evolving cultural reception around UFOs.

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Episode Overview

In this classic episode of "Mystery Wire," George Knapp convenes with three prominent practitioners of "UFO summoning": Jim, Mike, and Alpha. They delve into their initial skepticism, transformative personal experiences, methods, and interpretations of the phenomenon—ranging from biological theories to models involving consciousness. The conversation interweaves firsthand accounts, references to religious and historical texts, and discussions of media attention—including a favorable New York Times article. Each guest reflects on the implications for science, spirituality, and the future of public engagement with the great mysteries of the skies.

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Key Discussion Points & Timeline

1. The Stigma and Personal Journeys into UFO Summoning

(01:32–04:39)

• Initial Skepticism & Social Risk:
  • Jim, Mike, and Alpha all describe their anxiety around how colleagues and family would view their involvement with UFO summoning.
  • Jim (01:59): "It sounds pretty crazy and far out. I was certainly a skeptic of this initially, but once I experienced the phenomenon, it had such a profound effect on me. There was no going back."
  • Mike (02:29): "It's pretty bizarre. It's probably downright a little bit insane... But the experiences became too profound and too strange to continue to ignore."
• Origins of Involvement:
  • Alpha recounts being drawn in by sightings with friends, including family validation after a shared orb sighting made the phenomenon "unquestionable" for his conservative Greek family.

2. Methods & Theories: How It Works and Why

(04:39–09:49)

• Historical References:
  • George recalls figures like Prophet Yahweh and Stephen Greer's CE5 events, noting the mix of skepticism and public spectacle.
• Techniques – The Summoning Protocol:
  • Jim (05:33, 09:01):
    • Learned from Robert Bingham (LA UFO Meetup), involving meditation, gratitude, and concentrated intention focused on a patch of sky.
    • "The most important thing is just have a sincere intention to make contact. And it does work." (06:22)
    • Protocol: Meditate to calm the mind, focus gratitude, stare into the sky, ask for contact, then release and observe.
• The Role of Consciousness:
  • Mike (06:43):
    • Increasingly believes summoning engages "the sort of fabric of reality through our consciousness"—our intention impacts the environment.

3. The Science, Consciousness, and Nature of the Phenomena

(07:45–09:49; 12:53–14:59)

• Scientific vs. Experiential Approaches:
  • Alpha initially approached as a "scientist," seeking behavioral patterns with cameras but admits gratitude and open-heartedness seem more effective than instrumentation.
• Historical and Scriptural Parallels:
  • Mike (12:53):
    • Cites Old Testament (clouds/fire as UFO analogues) and New Testament references, suggesting the principle of consciousness affecting reality is "rife through all classical traditions."
• First-Person Experiences:
  • Alpha describes a palpable sense of "tuning in," and a link between gratitude and the likelihood of sightings.
  • Sharing summoning experiences with skeptics produces varied impacts, some life-changing, others fleeting.

4. Notable Summoning Events and Evidence

(15:54–21:59)

• Jim’s "Mothership Fleet" Sighting (16:20):
  • Location: Long Beach, CA.
  • Witnessed and recorded a massive, elongated light emitting smaller orbs, including a striking triangular formation (common in authentic sightings).
  • Jim: "The more you record them, the better the performances get." (17:33)
• Close Encounter: Five Green Lights (18:23):
  • In Newport Beach, CA, Jim observed five green spheres with a black tower at close range, but missed recording the best footage due to a full memory card.
• Personal Initiation Stories:
  • Mike describes his introduction via Jeremy Corbell and the realization that, "believing in certain ways is seeing."
  • Alpha recounts a profound underwater sighting in Greece, reinforcing his conviction of a consciousness connection.

5. The Nature of These Entities: Craft, Biological, or Something Else?

(23:45–25:30)

• Infrared Observations & Visibility:
  • Many orbs and shapes are only visible via infrared, suggesting they may always be present but unnoticed.
  • Two classes: engineered machines and biological life forms possibly living in the upper atmosphere.
  • Referenced Kenneth Arnold’s later belief (1962) that "flying saucers" are biological atmospheric organisms, not just machines.

6. Media Attention and Shifting Culture

(26:16–31:23)

• New York Times Coverage:
  • Initially wary, all three were surprised by the open-minded, positive coverage in a prominent article (reporter: Rosette Raghu).
  • Mike (26:51): "One's natural assumption about the UFO field... is that it just exposes you to ridicule and derision and contempt... these days that's shifting markedly..."
  • Recent uptick in positive attention, including features on "Paranormal Caught on Camera" and Travel Channel.
  • Alpha recounts using a powerful telescope at a group event to confirm the objects were not balloons, increasing credibility.

7. Reflections, Motivations, Future Plans

(31:23–37:13)

• Public Invitation & Democratization:
  • Jim (31:34): "Anyone can do it. Anyone can produce the phenomenon... if we all come together and do this, there will be quantum leaps in what we understand about this phenomenon."
  • Mike: Promoting a sense of awe and "keeping your appointment with Wonder."
  • Both Mike and Alpha planning books and a podcast to further explore consciousness, orbs, and related phenomena.
  • Alpha moving to the Greek island to devote a year to meditation and documentation.
• Final Reflections:

  • All strongly encourage listeners to try the summoning protocol themselves; emphasize openness, curiosity, and participation as key.

    Alpha (36:03): "The mechanism of summoning itself becomes too reductive to encompass the entire aspect of the phenomenon… I'm just starting increasingly to be a participatory researcher, meaning using my consciousness to study the field of consciousness."

    Lao Tzu quote (36:55): "The Dao that can be told is not the eternal Dao... Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations. This is the gate to all mysteries."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mike (06:43): "The consciousness is sort of the seat of our relationship with the universe, and consciousness is king, so to speak. So if you bring something into your consciousness, then that has the capacity to have an effect on the environment around you."
• Jim (09:01): "[The summoning protocol starts with] a simple meditation... focus on that feeling of gratitude... concentrate my stare on that point for a good minute or two... then I transmit the thought to please come or to show me the truth."
• Alpha (15:09): "It is not a guarantee we'll change people's lives... some people just see for five minutes. They acknowledge it. They say, yeah, it's not a plane and it's not a bird. Wow, that's fascinating. Then they just go back to their lives."
• Mike (26:51): "I'd just wanted to add one last quotation... Carl Jung... said, 'The conclusion is something is seen but one doesn't know what. It is difficult if not impossible to form any correct idea of these objects because they behave not like bodies but like weightless thoughts.'"
• Alpha (36:55): "...Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations. This is the gate to all mysteries."

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Call to Action & Contact Info

• Jim:
  • YouTube: Infamous Fan Club
  • Twitter: @OrbSummoners
• Mike & Alpha:
  • Twitter: @OrbSummoners
  • Upcoming book (Mike), future podcast (Alpha & Mike)
  • Encouragement: try the protocol, share experiences, and maintain a spirit of wonder

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Overall Tone and Language

• Open, curious, at times playful but deeply earnest
• Clear respect for personal experience, with an undercurrent of scientific curiosity
• Invitations to skepticism blended with an exhortation for direct investigation

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Key Takeaways

• Anyone can attempt UFO summoning—meditation and conscious gratitude are emphasized.
• Experiences range from subtle orbs to dramatic, well-documented sightings on infrared.
• The phenomena may be biological, technological, or perhaps expressions of consciousness itself.
• Skepticism remains healthy, but openness is vital—positive media attention is growing.
• Guests urge listeners to try it themselves, promising awe and possibly paradigm-shifting experiences.

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For newcomers and skeptics alike, this episode offers a unique blend of testimony, method, theory, and philosophical reflection at the frontier of human curiosity.

Transcript

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[George]

Gentlemen, good to see you again. Great to talk to you.

[Alpha]

Good to see you George.

[Jim]

Great to see you George.

[George]

Let's start this way. You know, you're all smart, educated, successful in your individual careers. Doesn't this seem pretty wacky of a thing to consider? And were you initially worried about what it might do to you? How your co workers, your families might see you? Jim, let's start with you.

[Jim]

Thanks, George. I really appreciate being here. And certainly this was a concern of mine starting out. It sounds pretty crazy and far out. I was certainly a skeptic of this initially, but once I experienced the phenomenon, it had such a profound effect on me. There was no going back. I had to embrace this new reality.

[George]

Mike, you have a Harvard degree. Good grief. Yeah. Mom, dad, I'm going out to summon in some aliens. Pull them in with my mind.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's a conversation around the family table that does not exactly gain me a lot of points, I can assure you. Yeah, no, this is. This is. It's pretty bizarre. It's probably downright a little bit insane. I've had to be pretty careful about whom I share it with in the closet for a number of years, engaging with this thing and dancing with it. But likewise, same with Jim. And same with Jim. Thank you for having us on here. And yeah, it just got to the point where the experiences became too profound and too strange to continue to ignore it or to continue to treat it playfully. Because initially it was just sort of something that Alpha and I especially did as kind of a game or a little bit of a. A little bit of a parlor trick even. But over time, it just became a thing that couldn't ignore and had to engage. And so here we're coming out.

[George]

Alpha, same question, sort of, which of these guys talked you into this? And do you remember what kind of a pitch they made to you at the time?

[Alpha]

I think initially it was Jeremy that introduced us to Jim, and we already were interested in the phenomenon and Mike had already. He's kind of first sighting, you know, after, you know, the Jeremy John interview, John Lear interview. So I think my official career as someone has started when I went to meet up with Jim and I managed to peg most of the orbs showing up. And, you know, Jim looked at me and he, like a token wizard, sort of gave me the camera and said, look, this is a gift. I want you to start doing this.

[George]

You know.

[Alpha]

So what made it, I think, easier for me to share with my friends and especially my family added being that I'm from a different culture, on top of it being crazy, a very conservative culture, which is Greece. I had my dad down in Newport beach and we did a sighting together. And it was unquestionable that it wasn't a plane, a drone or bird or anything like that. So after that, there was no more convincing for at least my family conversations.

[George]

Jim, when I first heard about this, I think it was Prophet Yahweh. There was a guy named Prophet yahweh in the 90s, early 90s. He would send me messages that he was going to come to Las Vegas and show me how this worked. And I thought it was pretty wacky. I tried to keep an open mind about these things. We made two appointments and he didn't show up for either one. But somebody else on different TV station had him, had him out and he pulled something in. I thought, what the heck is this? And then, you know, I kind of put it in a side box in My mind. And then Stephen Greer started doing these things, charging a lot of money to go out on these adventures in the desert, charging people a lot of money to pull something in and calling them Close Encounters of the fifth Kind. So I became interested, but not really knowledgeable until I talked to the three of you a couple of weeks ago. How did you start, Jim, and how quickly did you get results?

[Jim]

Thanks, George, for that question. You know, I started by joining a local group in Los Angeles that was hosted by Robert Bingham called LA UFO Meetup. And this was in early 2012. At the time, there was historic sightings happening over downtown Los Angeles. Numerous sightings, about 50 people would get together every weekend in the park, and we generate these phenomenal sightings and record them. So I then trained with Robert on my own for a couple months, just taking lessons with the two of us. He taught me how to utilize my consciousness to make these contacts. And then it really just kind of, from there on, it kind of. The sightings became more and more intense and more frequent. And then we kind of moved on with this group and the crowds became bigger and bigger as we went.

[George]

And can anybody do it?

[Jim]

Anybody can do it. You don't need a guru, a teacher. You don't need to have any background in religion or philosophy. You just need to have an open heart, look to the sky with gratitude. And I think the most important thing is just have a sincere intention to make contact. And it does work.

[George]

Mike, do you have a theory on why it works?

[Mike]

Quite a number. We've been sort of trying to figure that out for the last number of years. Some people suspect that, you know, these are craft that are coming in from elsewhere and they're tuned into our consciousness. Increasingly I. I'm more of the mind that we're engaging with the sort of fabric of reality through our consciousness. Right. The consciousness is sort of the seat of our relationship with the universe, and consciousness is king, so to speak. So if you bring something into your consciousness, then that has the capacity to have an effect on the environment around you. So increasingly I'm of that opinion and have some backup with the either ancient or more contemporary scriptures or belief systems that seem to support that. But that's the sort of difficult point that I've arrived at after a great deal of skepticism, confusion, bafflement, perplexity and reluctance. But that's where I am.

[George]

Yeah, Alfo, The UFO topic and the summoning, of course, seem to be related. We're not quite sure it's the same thing. I mean, the things that you guys see are not necessarily structured craft, like as the military has been photographing. What do you think they are?

[Alpha]

Since we've been doing with Mikey, we've kind of both concluded it's certainly linked with consciousness. But to start with, I was also of an opinion that Jim had formulated over the years that, you know, I approach it like a scientist. So I kind of assumed that these things are living things. They just behaved like things in the sky that you could study. And it just kind of helped me quell my doubt a little bit, because that way I could actually, you know, try different settings on my camera, try to see if there's, like, different behaviors, if they come in different patterns. But over and over, it just seemed that what Jim said, which is the level of, like, having an open mind, a heart, and gratitude to say something that doesn't sound scientific. All of a sudden, gratitude seemed to have been a pool, like a magnet for these sightings. And I've come to the conclusion they're linked to consciousness.

[George]

Jim, walk us through it. How does it work? We want to go out and here in the desert somewhere and communicate. What do you do? What are the steps?

[Jim]

Certainly, George. Well, I think it's helpful just to start the process by doing a simple meditation, just to clear your mind, clear your thoughts, try to get into a calm state. And then I really do think it's important to focus on that feeling of gratitude, of just being grateful, to make contact and to be in this position. Now, the protocols themselves are very simple. I was taught to just simply go outside, focus on a point in the sky very intensely, and I'll concentrate my stare on that point for a good minute or two, just seeing as far as I can into space with my consciousness. And then I transmit the thought to please come or to show me the truth, to make contact. And then I pull out, I let go, and I typically wait a few minutes, and then the phenomenon will usually manifest in the sky.

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Usually.

[George]

I mean, 50%, 60%, 80.

[Jim]

Well, a lot of it depends on where you do the protocols. When you have a lot of activity over a particular place, you create a window of activity, as I'm sure you've seen at Skinwalker Ranch. So at my house or my apartment, these are windows of high windows of activity. So typically, I would say 60 to 70% of the time, I can go out in my backyard, apply my thought, and have a visual response in the sky to confirm that we are interacting with each other.

[George]

Mike I imagine it gets frustrating if it doesn't work. You go out there, you spend some time, you feel kind of goofy, maybe in the beginning at least, and then nothing shows up. Do you blame yourself when that happens?

[Mike]

Yes and no. Well, I would say two things. One is one of the wonderful benefits of the practice is even if you don't get anything in the sky, you've gone outside, you've expressed gratitude, and you've looked up at the sky, which is something that very few people kind of do if they're not bird watchers or otherwise engaged in this. So the practice itself, even if it doesn't yield immediate results, is exceedingly sort of calming and beneficial. But yeah, I mean, there are moments of frustration where you start to question yourself, where you start to wonder, am I not seeing anything because this is insane? Or am I not seeing anything because I am not being grateful enough? Or certainly the monkey mind starts to spin and you can start to wonder. But if you approach it as just a. Like a practice of acknowledgment and gratitude and looking up in wonder, then even if you don't get anything, it usually produces a pretty beneficial effect on your day.

[George]

You've studied a lot of ancient languages, religious texts, religious scholars, and, you know, writings. Is this consistent? Is there anything like it in prehistory or earlier in human history?

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[Mike]

mean, I would give a resounding yes. I mean, obviously a lot of people watch Ancient Aliens. I'm Primarily schooled in the Old Testament. And there are, you know, this pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire that the Israelites were following through the desert. I can't really come up with a much different explanation for it than that this all consciousness was guiding them and they were seeing something not so distinct from what we're seeing. And over the course of the pandemic, Alpha and I have been reading the Gospels, the New Testament in Greek, and have been just blown away by some of the lines of Christ consciousness saying, if you, if you, if you want the mountain to come down, then think it and the mountain will fall. This notion of interjecting your will and the universe responding is something that is rife through all classical traditions. I would argue.

[George]

Alpha, can you walk us through the first one that was successful for you, how it worked and, and how you felt when and what you saw?

[Alpha]

Right. So the first one was actually with me, Jeremy and Mike. What was intriguing at the time is we just were looking up at the sky. Part of the technique of Jim applied meaning, I would focus on a single point. I would try to change my focus from close to far away. And I was trying to sort of tune in. And at a certain point, again, this does not sound scientific, but felt it was in a certain region of the sky. So I turned my head and sure enough, right there in focus, it was just a bright little orb floating in the sky. So it was very. Just hard to categorize initially for me. So much so that I started even taking account of the types of different feeling I would have every time I would get a sighting. So not just the behavior and the weather and the patterns, but also like, how did I actually feel every time I see it? And sure enough, the technique eventually honed into if you're feeling gratitude, more chances to see one than not to see one.

[George]

And, you know, after you successfully see one and then you start seeing more, does it change your view of reality, the universe, the cosmos, yourself?

[Alpha]

I think, I think what really did it for me was to be able to share it with people that were highly skeptical and for them to be able to physically see it and see the virus reactions of each one. I think that's what changed me. Because what I realized, and we've always discussed that with Mike, is it is not a guarantee we'll change people's lives. I mean, as strange as this sounds, some people just see for five minutes. They acknowledge it. They say, yeah, it's not a plane and it's not a bird. Wow, that's fascinating. Then they just go back to their lives. Right. For me, yes, it had a tremendous and profound effect about how you. The world, what I consider my perception to be, how it changed me inside. So it just doesn't touch everyone the same way.

[George]

Jim, let's talk about some specifics. So these are not just things you see with your eyes, although a lot of times you see them, but you can record them and record some pretty dramatic episodes and incidents on infrared. Let's walk through some of them. You've got one that. That's called the Mothership Fleet. Tell us about that video. October 2017. What the circumstances were, where you were and what you saw.

[Jim]

Certainly. Thanks, George, for asking about that sighting. That's probably the best reporting I've shot to date. And this took place at Long beach in Long Beach, California. I had just purchased a new home there, and I was in my backyard just doing yard work. Actually, one day when I looked up and saw this tremendous blob of light in the sky, this huge, white, elongated light. And this looked a little different than most of the normal objects I see, which are typically orbs or circular objects. This was kind of like an elongated tube. Now, when I saw this object, I immediately grabbed my camera, which is an infrared recording camera. I use a Canon SX60, which has been modified to record in full spectrum to see these other ranges of light that we can't see with our eyes. So once I put the camera on this big glowing light in the sky, all these smaller orbs were released from the object, which was just fascinating. And I'll add the first three objects that came out of this portable light were in a triangular formation, which is very rare and also a commonality in these sightings.

[George]

For me, those triangle then formed sort of a vertical line. It changed shapes, too. So what was that display about what was going on there? They were just trying to wow you.

[Jim]

I think it's just I'm someone who avidly records these anomalies. I share them with the public. And I believe the more that you record them, the better the performances get. So in this case, I had been recording for about eight or nine years before I had this recording. And I just believe it wanted to share that moment with me on film, to share with the world. And then the more important point is this triangular formation of objects that came out in film beginning. I've had three other sightings that were also triangular formations. And that's a way for us to communicate with each other, to know that we are interacting. And it's kind of a basic form of visual display that we communicate with.

[George]

You had a second one. That was another one that's featured on your site, on your website link from March of 2017. These five green lights. That video has been shared all over the world. What the heck was that thing?

[Jim]

Thanks, George. Yeah, that was a really profound sighting, and it was actually a close range sighting. It was about 50ft off the ground at my office in Newport beach, and I saw this tremendously large object hovering right near in my backyard of five green spheres with a black tower on top of these spears. This tower was about 20ft tall, and it was the strangest object I've ever seen in my life at close range. Now, I had the opportunity to film this very close, but when I put the camera on it and I hit record, my HD card was full. And so I panicked and I started erasing all the files from my camera, trying to capture this anomaly at close range. By the time I erased these files, it had traversed across the yard into the upper atmosphere. And that's when I finally got the lens on it. But as you can see, it performs all types of unusual maneuvers. It had spotlights, and it's something I saw at close range, so I can verify that it was truly an anomaly.

[George]

Mikey, what was your sighting? The first one that you felt you pulled in, Were you with a group? Does it work better with a group? And can you describe what it was that you saw?

[Mike]

For sure, George, the first one had to be. Well, the way I got introduced to this entire practice. You mentioned the prophet Jeremy Corbell, who's a luminary in the field of ufology. Now, he was approached by a young man who claimed that he could summon UFOs. And when Jeremy. And he used the Hebrew Bible, which is what the prophet would use to engage with them. So Jeremy thought, mike, you really need to meet this guy. After they had had a few sessions together in which the young man had summoned and then an object had appeared. So we got together, and I think a lot of what transpired in our interaction with one another, we didn't get any orbs when we summoned together, but he introduced me to the idea that this was possible. And a lot of people say that seeing is believing, but I think in this case, believing in certain ways is seeing. Once you open yourself to the possibility it can happen, then you'll start to notice that it does happen. So a few weeks later, I was just on the telephone with a producer that I was doing a project with. And for whatever reason, I decided to go outside, I just had a sense that, I don't know, I wanted to look at the sky. And just out of the middle of a massive sky, I managed to pinpoint on this tiny white dot. You know, we like to say they look almost like off duty stars. I only see them during the day. Jim is a master summoner who gets them both day and night. He's amphibious that way. But we, I get them during the day and it looks like a tiny, glowing, self luminous metallic orb. And I, at the time, I called Jeremy and he happened to be filming at the moment with John Lear, the godfather of conspiracy. And I told him, jeremy, I'm seeing one of these things. I'm looking at one. And other people were walking down the street and they're like, what are you looking at up there? And then I pointed and they said, how the hell did you even see that? I just kind of shrugged. But coda to the story was that John Lear said, mikey, tell him to come to John Lear's house in Las Vegas, Nevada. They know where I live. And he got out of his chair and went outside to the yard and he started looking up. To the best of my knowledge, they did not visit him in Las Vegas. But that initiated me into this entirely new form of engagement with the atmosphere.

[George]

Well, I can confirm part of that story. They do know where he lives. Alpha, are you the one who had a sighting underwater in the Greek islands? Can you tell us that?

[Alpha]

This might be my most important sighting. Just because it sort of removed any possible doubt of what I was seeing was linked to consciousness or not. So we were at a low moment with Mike because we had just purchased the brand new equipment and we're getting a lot of balloons. And as I said, we've always been very diligent in like being able to remove some of those variables to make sure that what we're seeing is an actual anomaly. And at the time I planned to leave for Greece, and I know I was going to a destination that, you know, been going for many years. And it's very, very far away from any sort of. It's a no fly zone, first of all, and there's no balloons, you know, hundreds of thousands of miles around. And I just decided to do my technique there. But as a twist, because I had already had some luck with it, I decided to just free dive, go underwater. I was stable, I was holding a line that was shut down to let's around 40 meters or around 100ft or plus. And I was in a substantial depth where I Could kind of peer out in the blackness. And I'm pretty good in the techniques. I stayed roughly for like a minute underwater. And within those first 30 seconds, sure enough, out of the blue, it popped in exactly the same way. Pops in the sky but underwater. And I made everything. I made sure my mask was clear. I blew it out again. You know, I blinked. I tried to, like, make sure, like, change angles, see if I'm not seeing things. But it's a fixed point in the bottom of the ocean or near the bottom of the ocean, not moving just right when I finished my meditation technique. So that, to me, removed any sort of doubt for if these things are linked to consciousness or not.

[George]

Jim, I know a lot of the videos that you have captured, they start out of these small orbs. They would be hard to see up in the sky unless you're really paying attention. And then they morph into something big blobs and sometimes spit things out. Do you think that they're up there all the time or maybe down here among us, not just in the sky, and we're just not looking for them? We're not using infrared to try to discern them?

[Jim]

I think that's right, George. I think they are around us all the time. They likely live in the upper atmosphere or in the oceans. And I think they're outside of our visible range of light. So if you're not looking for them or you're not utilizing looking for them with infrared equipment, you will just not notice how present they are around us. And the more I've recorded, particularly with using infrared, the more shocked I've become just at how present they are in our atmosphere. And again, I want to make the point that I believe a lot of these biological. A lot of these UFOs are biological life forms that I think live in our upper atmosphere. And I think there's two types of UFOs machine, UFOs that are intelligently engineered with maybe alien hardware, then some kind of natural life form that is yet to be discovered. And the last thing I want to close on is Kenneth Arnold, the founder of the term flying saucer, came to the same conclusion after 14 years of research. He reported in 1962 in Flying Saucer Magazine that he thought these unidentified flying objects were not spaceships from space, but in fact, groups and masses of living organisms in our upper atmosphere. And he thought the only difference between these organisms in the upper atmosphere and oceanic life was their ability to change their density at will. Which comes back to your point about the morphing nature of the objects and their ability to change their shape at will.

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[George]

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[George]

You know, a couple of years ago I mentioned this when we spoke a few weeks ago that I saw this article, the New York Times article, I think it was reprinted in the LA Times, I thought, and it's talking about summoners and there's a photo and I'm thinking to myself about the article, oh man, this is going to be ugly. This New York Times is going to carve these guys up. And then I look at the photo, you guys, it's you guys. And tell me about that experience, Mike, and dealing with that New York Times reporter. I would think all three of you would be very reluctant to invite somebody like that into this experience because you know you're going to get your legs chopped off.

[Mike]

Yeah, I think, I mean, Jim had much more personal contact with the reporter than we did. We were present for a couple of the instances in which the reporter was there observing the people summoning. Yeah, this was at a time where I would have been very reluctant to speak on the record about this subject. But so, and yeah, obviously one's natural assumption about the UFO field for many, many years is that it just exposes you to ridicule and derision and contempt. Obviously largely through the work of you, George and Jeremy and others. These days that's shifting markedly and to the point that the window of contemplation of these subjects has gone through a sea change in the last months. I would let Jim speak more about the relationship with the reporter. I would just add maybe one thing. You were asking what these things are. I defer to Jim entirely as a summoner, as one who engages with this phenomenon. I think I'm less inclined though to think that they're either craft or biological entities. They might be certainly but increasingly I'm of the mind that there it is as though the universe is winking at you, that it's, that it's somehow part of the sky in which you have some engagement or investment is sending a little nod that says I hear you, I know that I know what you're saying and if I may, I just wanted to add one last quotation about that which is Carl Jung said in his beautiful book about flying saucers in the introduction he said the conclusion is there. It is. The conclusion is something is seen but one doesn't know what. It is difficult if not impossible to form any correct idea of these objects because they behave not like bodies but like weightless thoughts. And that's my sense more and more is that they feel almost as though they're little thought bubbles.

[George]

Alpha, talk to me about you also were I would think you would be a little bit leery of something like the New York Times coming in to cover this. I don't know if there's been other media coverage of you guys has there and were you pleased with what came out?

[Alpha]

We'll start from the end. Yeah, I was certainly pleased with that came out as Jim, I was surprised to see see how favorable the article was and how open minded it was and the reporter made sure to be sort of very diligent and kind of actually really cared and looked into not only the meetups but the phenomenon itself during that day. I personally had at least five sightings and I had the ability to confirm them through this gentleman that had a camera linked to a telescope and could get ultra zoom levels of like clarity and sort of see the object a little more obviously larger and a little more clear and you know, I could certainly verify there were not balloons. So that sort of added in my in removing even further doubt. But as Mike said, it was a moment in our summoning career that we weren't really open about talking about them or sharing them and stuff. So it really felt good to be around a group of people that we didn't have to make up stuff for they could, we could openly talk about and share. So and as Mike mentioned, you know, the fact that your work and Joe work has kind of allowed people to even have that conversation. It's just really, really refreshing and hopefully will get us more sightings.

[George]

Actually Jim, the same question about the New York Times. I probably should have given you that one since you were working directly with them. You had to be wary of that encounter. You had to be happy with the result in general. Are you able to get other media coverage now with the whole world going UFO crazy?

[Jim]

Certainly. I mean, the New York Times article set the stage for us. The reporter, to her credit, Rosette Raghu, was a wonderful woman who approached us with a very open mind. And, you know, as I mentioned on coast to coast, we did multiple events with her where she came, participated, and experienced phenomenon for herself. So that's why we believe the article was favorable. She just couldn't deny that there were anomalous objects appearing when we gathered together. Secondly, I think that, yes, we've had a lot of uptick in our recordings being shared and just interest in this phenomenon as the press has picked it up. Paranormal Caught on Camera has featured a number of my recordings. Travel Channel. And now with you and Jeremy elevating this like never before, the platform is bigger than ever.

[George]

So each of you, I'll start with you, Jim, then Mike, and then Alpha. Where do you want to take it? What comes next? How can people help you? How can they learn? How can they contact you?

[Jim]

Well, they can contact me at my YouTube channel, infamous fan Club, and I'd love to hear from you or see any of your recordings. We also have a Twitter account called Orb Summoners where you can reach us as well. But really my goal is to show that if myself, with just one camera, can document hundreds of recordings and share them with the world, if we all come together and do this, there will be quantum leaps in what we understand about this phenomenon. Anyone can do it. Anyone can produce the phenomenon. And with just very basic recording devices, you can capture it on film and then share your experiences.

[George]

Mike, you're out of the closet on this now. So you want to share this. You think that a lot of people could benefit from knowing about it. We don't need congressional hearings, we don't need the Pentagon to cough up some files that this is available to anyone.

[Mike]

It really is, George and I, I am, in fact, out. And I would encourage everyone to just go out and try to experience it, because what you'll find is that if you keep your appointment with Wonder, then the wonder will reveal itself to you. And, yeah, right now I'm engaged in putting together a book about this topic, and I'm very eager to get it done, devoting myself to that. So. And yeah, we've started this Twitter handle, orbsummoners, and we encourage everybody who has experiences or has questions to reach out to us. The more people that are engaged with this, we think the more that it will become, The more that the phenomenon will reveal itself. And that's precisely what we want. We want to. We want people to engage and people to experience a sense of awe. And it's changed my life and I would encourage others to give it a whirl also.

[George]

Same kind of question. Alpha, do you consider yourself a disciple of somebody

[Alpha]

at this point? I mean other than Jim that we've repeatedly said he's our master in this. I consider myself a disciple of consciousness studies. I want to find out how this phenomenon fits in with the rest of my interest, be they out of body experiences or bioenergy energy and ultimately in the nature of consciousness. We're intending with Mike to put together a podcast that won't exclusively be about orbs, but it will definitely include that topic and we want to have sort of a conversational tone about it and bring in aspects of high science and high literature and are all tied together in a very sort of interesting one hour episode style show. So I'm really looking forward to that. And then lastly, I'm actually moving on to that very island I had the sighting and I'm going to be probably staying there for an entire year year where I'm planning to devote myself entirely to the meditation aspect of it to get more sightings recorded on video and both photo potentially also write create a journal about it that I could share with others and just really get down to the bottom of this. I'm really, really fascinated with the whole subject.

[George]

We have about six minutes left, so I'd like to give each of you like two minutes. Anything we didn't cover in this discussion, anything you'd like to convey to our audience. Jim, let's start with you.

[Jim]

Well, I just would encourage the audience to go outside and try this for yourself. No one needs to give you disclosure or you don't need a government to tell you when it is or how it is. You just need to go in your backyard, apply these protocols, use an open heart, use gratitude and just go outside and do it and you'll be really surprised at what happens. It will change your perspective. You'll be doing the world a favor by sharing this phenomenon. And again, anyone can do it. There's no special power to this. It's just simply the act of being of doing it and believing that you can succeed.

[George]

Mike, same thing. Any closing thoughts or something we missed an incident or occurrence or philosophy or whatever?

[Mike]

I guess what I would probably say is that, you know, I think engaging with the possibility of this certainly confirms the old Shakespearean adage that there is much more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy. I think the more one wrestles and tangles and rejoices and luxuriates in this, just the more your entire sense of what is possible will just shatter and then open. It's truly a mesmerizing, bizarre, confusing experience, but a really meaningful one. So I would encourage everyone to try and reach out to us with your experiences.

[George]

Alpha.

[Alpha]

Well, similarly to the other guys, the only thing I want to add is that I've used for a long time sort of a scientific approach to this and it just feels that the mechanism of Simon itself becomes too reductive to encompass the entire aspect of the phenomenon. So I'm just starting increasingly to be a participatory research, meaning using my consciousness to study the field of consciousness which I think this phenomenon is part of. And I've also turned to sacred texts and religious studies. And I want to just leave us with a quote that I found, you know, thousands of years old from Lao Tzu, the Dao. And he mentioned something that I think directly links itself to the phenomenon. And he says, and I'm reading it, the Dao that can be told is not the eternal Dao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations. This is the gate to all mysteries.

[Mike]

So that's that.

[George]

That's pretty good, guys. This is a fun conversation. We'll do it again. Mike, when your book comes out. Alpha, when you come back from your year on your island. And Jim, whatever you're producing, you're welcome here anytime.

[Jim]

Thank you, George.

[George]

Thank you guys.

[Mike]

Thanks so much. George,

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