Gina Baker Chambers, MCB Real Estate

Summary

CREDA Podcast: Inside CRE

Episode Title: Gina Baker Chambers, MCB Real Estate
Date: March 30, 2026
Host: Christopher Ware
Guest: Gina Baker Chambers, President of MCB Real Estate

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Episode Overview

This episode of Inside CRE features a deep-dive conversation with Gina Baker Chambers, the President of MCB Real Estate. Gina, with her extensive experience both as a capital allocator and now as an operator, discusses MCB’s meteoric growth, its community-centric development philosophy, and her personal career journey. The conversation covers MCB's major projects like Baltimore’s Harbor Place and Viva White Oak, affordable housing investments, and broader trends shaping the commercial real estate industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Capital Allocator to Operator

[01:24 – 03:08]

• Gina explains her move from Artemis Real Estate Partners to MCB Real Estate, citing her familiarity with MCB from previous deals and the firm’s transparency and strong team culture.
• She sees MCB as having the right ingredients for scaling up further: “It was a great group of people, excellent track record and just really a new startup challenge in a way, not from zero, but from 3 billion, a $3 billion base to go to 10 billion and beyond.” (Gina, 02:46)
• Transitioning roles meant shifting from a portfolio-wide investor mindset to a more bespoke, deal-by-deal operator perspective.

2. Sustaining Growth and the Importance of Relationships

[03:56 – 06:39]

• MCB's growth in 2025 stemmed from intentional, market-driven investments, with a disciplined focus on fundamentals and patient execution.
• The ability to maintain growth depends on adaptability and the platform’s structural strength.
• Gina emphasizes relationships—as critical with both investors and communities—as the foundation for long-term success:
  “Relationships are the foundation of everything...It really comes down to do you say, can you deliver on what you say you can do? And do you do it in a way that's accretive for the investor and the community?” (Gina, 05:52)
• She asserts integrity is more important than profit: “I would much rather be partners with a good person with integrity and possibly not make money than make a whole lot of money with someone with. Without integrity.” (Gina, 06:20)

3. Community-Centric Approach and Building Trust

[07:32 – 08:39]

• “Doing well and doing good” is not a trade-off but central to MCB’s philosophy.
• Trust is built by consistently showing up, delivering on promises, and openly addressing challenges together with the community:
  “You don't hide from difficulties, you don't hide from challenging situations, you don't hide from the detractors...it's really being open, being thoughtful and being responsive.” (Gina, 07:57)

4. The Firm’s Retail and Mixed-Use Strategy

[08:39 – 14:05]

• MCB takes a pragmatic, place-driven approach, prioritizing mixed-use and retail projects where people live, not just where they commute.
• The team looks for under-retailed locations with strong demographic tailwinds:
  “We view it really through a very simplistic lens and that is start where people where and how people actually live...We find that complexity is often where there's an opportunity embedded if you can just have the patience to really peel back the onion.” (Gina, 09:19-09:48)
• Gina uses the example of Charles County’s retail shortfall following years of population growth and income increases: existing retail failed to keep pace with new resident needs.

5. Outlook on Retail

[12:24 – 14:05]

• Retail, while once out of favor, has quietly strengthened thanks to shrinking oversupply and increased focus on essential services.
• The post-pandemic world sees consumers centering their lives around home, not work corridors, a trend MCB is strategically leveraging.

6. Spotlight: Harbor Place (Baltimore) & Viva White Oak (Montgomery County)

[14:05 – 20:10]

• Harbor Place Revitalization:
  • Occupies a 20-acre prime urban waterfront, previously blighted with 90% vacancy.
  • MCB, as a local operator, aims to reimagine the site for the 21st century, introducing a new anchor (“The Sail Building”), residential towers, abundant parks, and vital community space.
  • Unprecedented community engagement:
    “Being able to purchase it as a homegrown team who we all have memories of being there as children and young adults, being able to really reimagine what it could be and function in the 21st century and not be so bound to a 20th century version of what it was, I think is really what excites this team.” (Gina, 15:26)
  • Estimated timeline: 7–10 years, given dependency on city and state infrastructure execution.
• Viva White Oak:
  • Sited near the FDA headquarters, in a historically underinvested part of Montgomery County.
  • Recently secured the first-ever TIF in the county, helping fund infrastructure:
    “You saw that TIF pass and then two weeks later we had the announcement of Costco coming to the site.” (Gina, 19:26)
  • Multi-use, will combine housing, retail, and life science space.

7. Assembling Capital Stacks for Complex Projects

[20:48 – 25:14]

• MCB is flexible and creative in sourcing capital—combining public grants, private equity, tax credits, and other vehicles.
• Deals often require multiple phases of capital—pre-development risk, development capital, and long-term takeout capital.
• Projects are “de-risked” by parceling out uses (residential, office, retail) and structuring tailored financing for each.

8. Medtail and the Evolution of Mixed-Use

[25:14 – 28:06]

• Medtail (medical + retail + multifamily) leverages sticky tenants and increases frequency of visits given aging US demographics.
• MCB tends to focus on necessity-based retail rather than over-indexing to experiential retail, which is more cyclical:
  “I do think experiential has a space. It's very important. I would just be very honest that I don't see that as our lane per se...if you over index to experiential, those are typically discretionary.” (Gina, 27:27)

9. Affordable and Workforce Housing

[28:13 – 33:15]

• MCB’s barbell approach: mostly market-rate development, but significant focus on acquiring naturally occurring affordable housing (NOAH).
• A landmark deal with Goldman Sachs and Baltimore County preserved 460 units for residents earning below 80% AMI, secured via a PILOT (payment in lieu of taxes).
• The challenge: institutional investors need to adjust expectations for returns, recognizing the social and community value of affordable housing.
  “It is irrational to expect a 20 from that type of product...But if you can get a return that is, you know, call it 200 basis points above their actuarial requirement. Most of these requirements are seven to eight and a half percent. So if you can deliver a 10 to 12, they understand that they are achieving two goals.” (Gina, 31:56)

10. Regional Outlook: DC, Virginia, Maryland

[33:15 – 35:55]

• Optimism for Northern Virginia (particularly residential and data center sectors).
• DC is entering a period of transition with a new mayor and possible policy shifts, which may impact investment.
• Maryland has strengths in infrastructure and geographic connectivity, but needs to focus on retaining residents and avoid overcorrecting on rental regulation.
• Political stability is beneficial: “I see green shoot. I do. I'm always going to root for Maryland.” (Gina, 35:43)

11. What Separates Scalable CRE Firms

[35:55 – End]

• Gina attributes long-term success to judgment and adaptability—especially as AI advances in underwriting.
• Discipline, operating depth, and clarity of purpose are paramount:
  “Judgment and adaptability matter more than anything. You know, markets change, capital moves, the cycles will certainly come and go. We're also entering an environment where AI and more advanced analytics are becoming standard in underwriting systems. And for me, that just makes judgment even more important.” (Gina, 36:27)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On MCB’s Mindset:
  “Doing well and doing good is not a tradeoff.” (Gina, 07:05)

• On Relationships:
  “I would much rather be partners with a good person with integrity and possibly not make money than make a whole lot of money with someone without integrity.” (Gina, 06:20)

• On Return Expectations for Affordable Housing:
  “It is irrational to expect a 20 from that type of product...But if you can get a return that is...200 basis points above their actuarial requirement, they understand that they are achieving two goals. They're still being a fiduciary...And they're also being responsive to the communities.” (Gina, 31:56)

• On Adaptability:
  “While technology can certainly help us process data faster, it still can't really tell you what matters right when conditions materially change.” (Gina, 36:35)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:24] – Gina’s background and move from Artemis to MCB
• [03:08] – Investor vs. operator mindset in real estate
• [05:51] – Role of relationships in scaling a real estate firm
• [08:39] – Community trust and MCB’s community-centric strategy
• [09:13] – Retail/mixed-use strategy and insights into submarket selection
• [14:05] – Harbor Place and Viva White Oak projects
• [20:17] – Explanation and role of TIF in the Viva White Oak project
• [21:22] – Assembling capital stacks and the role of public subsidy
• [25:14] – Medtail: blending medical office/retail/multifamily
• [28:13] – Affordable housing, partnerships, and return expectations
• [33:49] – Regional outlook: DC, Virginia, and Maryland submarkets
• [35:55] – What will define CRE platform success over the next decade

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Summary Takeaways

Gina Baker Chambers offers an optimistic yet pragmatic perspective on the commercial real estate industry, emphasizing integrity, flexibility, and deep community engagement as core ingredients to MCB’s growth. The firm’s willingness to innovate in both capital stack construction and asset type—especially in affordable housing and community-driven mixed-use—positions it at the intersection of profit and purpose. This episode is a masterclass for developers, investors, and community stakeholders alike on how to deliver impactful, sustainable growth in today’s complex CRE landscape.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hi, I'm Christopher Ware and welcome to Inside CRE conversations with the people developing the future of commercial real estate. On this podcast, we talk with developers, investors, owners and industry leaders about the ideas, strategies and trends shaping the built environment. The Commercial Real Estate Development association provides education, advocacy and connections to help commercial real estate professionals succeed. Inside CRE is proudly sponsored by Majestic Realty. Today I'm joined by Gina Baker Chambers, President of MCB Real Estate, a firm behind some of the most consequential mixed use and community centered developments on the east coast. That includes the redevelopment of Baltimore's iconic Harbor Place and the large scale master planned Viva White Oak project just outside of Washington D.C. mCB has grown to over 3 billion in assets and executed 1.3 billion in acquisitions in 2025 alone. Gina, great to have you with us today.

[B]

Thank you. Glad to be here.

[A]

Excellent. So let's dive right in. You were one of the first employees at Artemis Real Estate Partners when it launched in 2009. And this is a women led investment management firm that you helped grow from a startup to having 10 billion in assets under management. After 14 years on the institutional capital side, you made the move over to MCB as president. So let me ask what drew you specifically to MCB and what did you see in that opportunity that made it worth making that jump?

[B]

Sure. So part of my role during the latter part of my tenure at Artemis was really to not only oversee our capital raising and investor relations efforts, but I was co leading our emerging and diverse manager platform. And that's how I first came to know MCB back in 2015 when I sat on the Artemis investor side and did a first, I feel, first deal with mcb. It was in the retail space. We ultimately went on to do about seven deals for about half, you know, half a billion dollars in gross purchase price. Most of that actually happened to be industrial though. And so I really had an opportunity to get to know the senior team, to look at how the team invested, to look at how transparent the team was with its partners. And I felt like MCB really had a lot of the ingredients to scale, you know, having being able to leverage my experience from, you know, startup to 10 billion by the time I left Artemis. And so it was a great group of people, excellent track record and just really a new startup challenge in a way, not from zero, but from 3 billion, a $3 billion base to go to 10 billion and beyond. So that was what was exciting to me.

[A]

Wonderful. And I have to ask, you know, what for you changed when you went from allocating capital and evaluating operators to actually being an operator. Is there a moment where your investor instincts and your operator instincts ever come into conflict?

[B]

Well, I will say when I first joined I was asking a lot of portfolio wide questions. A lot of things are really bespoke in an individual joint venture, some programmatic joint ventures around here. But I very much thought of leverage exposure from a portfolio perspective and you know, whatever our occupancy from a portfolio. And sometimes you just have to look at those things deal by deal because it doesn't make sense to think of them as a portfolio when they have distinct capital structures.

[A]

Sure makes sense. So MCV, we talked about this earlier. Executed 1.3 billion in acquisitions in 2025. 4 million square feet under active development. That's really a remarkable pace. What do you attribute the firm's growth to? And do you think that pace is going to be sustainable into this year and next? Or are you starting to shift a little bit more toward on executing what you already have in place?

[B]

Sure. So I would say as I reflect on 2025, that really was the fruition of a lot of intentionality and discipline with respect to executing on the strategy. You know, we really stay focused on the fundamentals investing where we see real demand, where we feel we have a good grasp of the market and where we, we know we can really execute right on the business. You see that in, like I said most acutely in 2025, but you also start to see it in 23 and 24 with our grocery anchored retail acquisitions, our complex mixed use projects such as Reservoir Square, which I'll talk about a little bit white oak. And really it's just being willing to do the work, be patient and build the platform the right way. It's that consistency that we think makes the difference for us with respect to the can we keep this pace? I think we certainly would like to try. You know, a lot of it is market driven and how can you be flexible and adapt to the market conditions that you find yourself in? But I would say we have really focused on the platform and the structure to enable us to be able to continue to replicate that level of volume.

[A]

Nice, nice. And what are those capabilities do you think are most critical to that scaling? Is it your capital markets relationships, your expertise in development, your partnerships with the community and the public sector? What stands out to you as being critical in maintaining that?

[B]

Relationships are the foundation of everything. It's the relationship with the community that's important. It's the relationship with capital. If you have continued to perform for capital. If you're transparent with capital, they'll continue to be a little bit sticky with respect to that relationship. And obviously it's performance. It really comes down to do you say, can you deliver on what you say you can do? And do you do it in a way that's accretive for the investor and the community? And if you can check those boxes, I think that really is a differentiator. We always say we'd love to be. I mean, you want to make money on every deal. Right. But I would much rather be partners with a good person with integrity and possibly not make money than make a whole lot of money with someone with. Without integrity.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense. And it's interesting you bring that up because the more conversations I have with commercial real estate leaders like you, you realize that commercial real estate is as much of a relationship business as it is a numbers business. And those two things are in equal measure, you know, when it comes to putting deals together, getting projects started. So just interesting to hear that again and hear that perspective. MCB describes itself as community centric, and we talked about that, just kind of touched on that. But you specifically have talked about doing well and doing good as a core operating philosophy. That's how you do business. That's not a trade off. How does that translate into how you build trust with some of those institutional investors and communities that you have those relationships with?

[B]

Sure. And I've touched on a few of the, you know, I hate to call them buzzwords, but they're actually core tenants of the way we think about the relationship with the community. And it's, it's really, you build trust on the back end, of continuing to show up, of continuing to do what you said you were going to do, of pushing forward when things get difficult and challenging. Right. You don't hide from difficulties, you don't hide from challenging situations, you don't hide from the detractors. You really identify what's the crux of the acquisition, perhaps, or what's the crux of the difficulty and you go into solution mode. How do we solve for this capital Stack challenge? How do we solve for, you know, this. Whatever the community is possibly having a challenge with, with respect to the site plan, is there a modification that we could do that is helpful for all parties? Right. And so it's really being open, being thoughtful and being responsive. I think those are really critical to ensuring that there's trust in the foundation of the relationship.

[A]

Makes sense. Something I want to chat with you a little about is your firms and your personal retail and mixed use strategy. And that's clearly driving a lot of your growth. MCB has built a strong reputation in retail and in the mixed use sector at a time when a lot of investors honestly are still kind of cautious about those areas. What defines and differentiates your approach and how did you develop that approach in this asset class when many others had not?

[B]

Yeah, so for us we view it really through a very simplistic lens and that is start where people where and how people actually live. And so we find that retail works best when it's close to where people live their daily lives, not necessarily just where they commute. And so that's why you've seen us historically very focused grocery essential services and the mixed use environments that feel integrated into the community because we find that sometimes they're more difficult for others to really dig their heels in and understand fully what's going on. And we find that that complexity is often where there's an opportunity embedded if you can just have the patience to really peel back the onion, if you will, to understand the foundational concepts of what the project could be if you execute it in a very methodical way. So we really feel like there's a lot of value in understanding the demographics of place and really building. And I say building, yes, developing, but it could also be enhancing underutilized or under capitalized retail assets that are in strong sort of demos, if you will, that the 135 mile radius has been yearning for something that's going to really speak to their needs.

[A]

And when you're evaluating a submarket, what are some of the signals that tell you a location is under retailed but has that high traffic potential? Is there kind of a tell that you're looking for when you're scoping a site out?

[B]

Yeah. So one example I'd use, we have two developments in the Charles county area. One is multi family development that we had a 5050 partner with and one is a retail center. And when you really, and I should mention with the multi, we're not actually developing the adjacent retail, but we're taking advantage of adjacent retail to that multifamily. And so it's the story of in migration to Charles county, which we've missed over the past 10 years and the retail hasn't kept up. Right. And if you look at the demographics of who is moving to Charles county, it's significant income. Right. There's a lot, there's a disproportionate number of hundred thousand plus a year earners who are there. So you want to ensure that they don't have to drive into the district, into the neighboring counties, and that you can keep those essential services and that grocery close to them with nearby proximity. And so that's really how we're thinking about it. We're trying to have the retail match where the demographic has moved.

[A]

And I do want to just sort of touch on this because I think it's interesting, you know, building retail where people live versus where they work. And that's kind of a counter move, certainly historically, but I think it really plays into the whole return to office situation, which is, you know, still playing itself out. Do you kind of view that as sort of a, I don't want to say recession proof play, but you know, it almost doesn't matter where people work if you're trying to target retail where people live. Because people still go home every day, right?

[B]

Correct. Yeah. I mean, I would say yes, people will go back to the office, but you just, you do not see the same level of activity in office corridors as, you know, post pandemic as we saw pre pandemic. Will that come back? I don't know. I don't have a crystal ball, but I do. To your point, everyone's going to go home at night for the most part. Right. And so can we make sure that we are adapting to this hybrid environment that I really don't see us getting out of anytime soon, where people are spending a little bit more time closer to home as they flex between the office and the house?

[A]

Absolutely. And just out of curiosity, what's your overall outlook on retail itself? Do you think it's healthier today than most people think we do?

[B]

I think retail was so out of favor for so long that it was able to quietly work through some of its oversupply and dated supply issues. And so you saw a fair amount of retail close or be repositioned, and that had made for just a healthier ecosystem for retail heading into where we are today because the supply was very muted. And so now when you're seeing supply pick back up in certain pockets, you know, it doesn't have the same level of competition as it may be once did. And it's also again, it's catering more to what level of services that do people need where, where it's being built, if you will. And so I do think that that decade or so malaise with respect to retail was healthy on the back end, but certainly hurt during, during the period.

[A]

Absolutely, absolutely. So I'd like to turn our attention to the two projects that's really put MCB on the map. And that, of course, is Harbor Place and Viva Lake Oak. Harbor Place, probably one of the most watched urban redevelopment stories certainly in this region, if not the country right now. A massive 20 acre waterfront site in Baltimore that had lost more than 90% of its tenants at one point. And then of course, Viva White Oak, large master plan community near the D.C. border that just received Montgomery County's first ever TIF financing deal. So give us a quick overview of each project and how that fits into the overall strategic vision for you and for mcb.

[B]

Sure. Certainly. Well, I'll start with Harbor Place and I'll move to Veeva and I'll start with Harbor Place. Just really, it's the crown jewel of Baltimore. Grew up there, if you're familiar with the region. And you know, after, I would say a gilded age, if you will. Right. Post open through the 80s and maybe the early 90s, it just really was not cared for as an asset by people who were of the community and cared for the community. And sometimes when you have out of town ownership, that can happen. Not all, obviously. And so being able to purchase it as a homegrown teen who we all have memories of being there as children and young adults, being able to really reimagine what it could be and function in the 21st century and not be so bound to a 20th century version of what it was, I think is really what excites this team. Right. So for those who may not be familiar, currently it sits on prime waterfront at the harbor. There are two pavilions that historically were full of retail and restaurant. And that vision is really going to be completely upended. Right. So we plan to raise those pavilions and put in a new sort of anchor which we're calling the Sail Building. It's just giving the architectural design. I know that doesn't translate as well with audio, but just stay with me here. So it's the shape of a sale and that we anticipate will house most of the retail, restaurant, cultural space, if you will. There is one small commercial building that will anchor this area and we are also investing in two residential towers, also creating much more parkland than currently exists there. And so again, a communal space where people can come together. This was the most massive community outreach project, I think, in MCB's history with respect to going out to all of the neighborhoods in the city to ensure that we were incorporating feedback from residents and that this isn't just being built for out of towners. Right. Certainly we want to attract tourists, but we want people who live here to feel welcome and to come. And so if we can meld those two purposes, I think that will be, you know, for the better, for the city and for everyone, for sure.

[A]

And for those who aren't maybe super familiar with Baltimore, the location we're talking about here, it's. It's next to Camden Yards. It's next to the aquarium that's there. It's next to the convention center. So, I mean, you really couldn't pick a higher profile piece of real estate, really, in downtown Baltimore than this one right here. So, I mean, you're starting. I mean, this is. This is something that, like I said, couldn't be higher profile if you wanted it to be. So it's. It's certainly exciting to have some new life come into that area. And I know that I'm looking forward to seeing the results. Is there an anticipated timeline for when you think the project will essentially. And I know these things, of course, move timeline wise, but do you have a timeline goal in mind?

[B]

Yeah, I typically anchor folks on, just think, seven to 10 years. Right. There's so much infrastructure that has to occur first, and we don't necessarily directly control some of the infrastructure pieces that have to occur. That's more at a city and state level.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And once we feel that that's moving at the right pace, we can really start to get our shovels in the ground, if you will, and start to build the structures that we anticipate will fill the space.

[A]

Wonderful. Well, certainly look forward to that. So let's talk about the Viva White Oak, certainly.

[B]

So Viva White Oak is also an exciting opportunity. This is located in Montgomery county, so again, just northwest, if you will, a little bit of Washington, D.C. this site is adjacent to the Food and Drug Administration headquarters.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah. And it is a node in what is referred to as east county in Montgomery county that has historically not been the beneficiary of significant investment. And this particular site has been promised, if you will, for the better part of the last decade. And we're finally in a position where we've been able to leverage our relationships both nationally and locally to generate the level of interest from retailers, home builders, apartment developers that is exciting to the county government that sees that there's real movement, which, you know, I think passing of the TIF is really an endorsement of what we have been able to say. Hey, if we can have this, support this project, you know, these folks are at the ready. And I think, you know, you Saw that TIFF pass and then two weeks later we had the announcement of Costco coming to the site. Really a lot of pent up demand to take advantage of the demos that are actually there, as I referenced earlier, and the residential that we will be able to put on this site. So to really densify the site as well.

[A]

And for those who are listening that maybe aren't as familiar with commercial real estate, could you give a quick 101 on what a TIF is?

[B]

I will do my best, yes. So it's tax increment financing and the idea is that essentially you're taking some of the tax revenue and you're using it to invest in the infrastructure. So it's the roads, it's the stormwater, it's all of those unglamorous things that have put in to support what we want to do with respect to the retail, the housing, the life science, medical office use.

[A]

Got it, got it. Well, you know, projects at the scale that we're talking about, because again, we're not talking about little niche projects here by any means. They require incredibly complex capital structures, capital stacks, to make those deals come together. And you're combining private equity, traditional debt, the public incentives that we talked about, tax credits. How does MCB approach assembling these capital stacks? And what's your philosophy on when public subsidy makes sense versus maybe when it doesn't?

[B]

Yeah, I would say we try to stay very creative and flexible. So there could be a point in time where you know. Well, let me just take one, one example. So we have a project called Reservoir Square in Baltimore and it will ultimately be a mixed use community of townhomes for sale townhomes. It will be necessity based retail. And there's also an office building going up that's going to support the Mayor's Office of Employment Development. And that started with a very small public grant. And we then had to build around that grant with private capital sources, but also some new markets, tax credit, some bridge financing. And this didn't all come together at once. Right. So it's being patient, being creative and really looking under every rock for capital that aligns with what the ultimate use is going to be. And so I would say we just, we have assembled a fantastic team, particularly a couple of our developers who are very plugged into the grant market, the foundation market, and understanding how what can work together because not all capital sources can work together either. And so you know that it takes a lot of skill to be thoughtful about how do you construct a capital stack that's going to ultimately support the project but also make sure that you are supporting the goals of the underlying capital.

[A]

And one of the challenges when you take on a project like a harbor place is and we talked about it, it's going to be a decades long or maybe hopefully not decades, but at least a decade long endeavor. How do you go about managing risk across a cycle that long? I mean how does capital structuring look when the interest rate environment for example shifts mid project?

[B]

Yeah, I think part of it is how do you break the project into digestible pieces? Because there's some pre developed, there's a fair amount of pre development work that is going to be required here. What's the type of capital that has that, that risk appetite? Right. Who's willing to go in early for the appropriate premium for taking the most risk before you sort of de risk the project with leases and, and, and other more patient capital that's going to be the long term takeout. And so if you can parcel, parcel it out like that. So we got our, you know, our pre dev capital and then we have our development capital who maybe just wants to be until stabilization and then we have our long term capital source who views this as, you know, the crown jewel of their portfolio and they want to be in it for 10 to 20 years. And so you can think about that as three different capital sources potentially. You know, maybe it's one highly doubtful, but it's how do you think about it in stages and phases. The other way to think about it from a de risking perspective is also think about it as parcels. And so who has appetite for residential only, who has appetite for commercial office? Who wants to be in the retail cultural space? And so there was a deal I worked on at Artemis many years ago in the Tyson's Corner area called the Borough project and the developer who developed that also did the same. There are about four different parcels to that project and so you could invest in one, some or all as a capital partner or a debt provider. We were actually preferred equity on two of the parcels of that. And so that's the way I kind of think about these types of projects. You know, where do we, how do we adjust the risk profile for the capital that's available?

[A]

Interesting. I want to zoom in on kind of your philosophy on retail and mixed use because obviously those are huge components of what we just discussed. And there's a term that I wasn't familiar with but certainly makes sense and I don't know who coined the term but medtail, that is the Combination of medical office, retail and multifamily. An example would be Foundry Row with Wegmans and a medical office space at Owing Mills and others like that. Talk to me a little bit about medtail and why you think that is kind of maybe the new mixed use where traditional office is less important but medical office is stepping up and taking its place.

[B]

Sure thing. Yes. No, Foundry is a great example. We have another example with our Yard 56 investment that across from Johns Hopkins Bayview campus. And to me, medtail, particularly when you're talking about medical office use, leans into the aging demographic of the US and so you find that medical office tenants are very sticky because they typically have significant and expensive buildouts of their space. And so it's hard for them to move from location to location without significant financial investment. And you're finding that as folks age, doctor appointments increase and those are typically appointments that are kept. And so if you put the retail where the folks have to go to their appointment, you know, it's a nice complimentary use if you will to co locate. And so I do think you'll see a fair bit more of that across the country.

[A]

And how important for you is experiential retail within these mixed use districts? Do you consider that? And what's the right balance between maybe traditional retail and more experiential retail when you're putting together a project like. Well, any project.

[B]

Yeah, it's a great question. I would say that we are much more focused on practical, essential, necessity based retail. I do think experiential has a space. It's very important. I would just be very honest that I don't see that as our lane per se. Not that we would ever do it, but there are other platforms out there that this is their bread and butter and they do it exceptionally well. I think part of our caution in house is as the economy does adjust and does turn, you know, if you over index to experiential, those are typically discretionary experiences. Yeah, pocketbooks get tight. And so you want to remain relevant during up cycles and down cycles.

[A]

Absolutely. People are still going to have to buy groceries, but maybe not go to the escape room every. Every weekend.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. Got it, got it. One of the things I want to talk about, and this is such a big issue in commercial real estate right now and it's a big issue in pretty much every market and that's affordable housing and community investment in affordable housing. And I think that's something that really stands out about MCB is your move into affordable and workforce housing. And recently set up a deal with Baltimore county and Goldman Sachs that preserved 460 units at 80% AMI. That's not where most institutional firms are playing right now. So what made you get into that space? And honestly, how are you making the economics work?

[B]

Yeah, I would say we approach residential very much from a barbell perspective. You know, we develop mostly market rate, but when you look at our purchases, they're mostly naturally occurring affordable housing. So for those listening, that's small A, not capital a affordable. And it's really just being thoughtful about ensuring that we're investing in residents who may not be able to afford that market rate. And it is not only ensuring that they have a safe place to live, but that you are able to make modest investments so that it's aesthetically pleasing. You want to treat every resident with dignity and respect ultimately. And I do believe that, as you know, wages are more stagnant at those income levels. It's important that we maintain some level of supply in the market with owners who really do their best to make investments in the asset. And so we obviously made our first investment, as you referenced here in Maryland, where we're based. So again, to the, you know, not that this is a community mission driven effort, not at all. But it is an effort to be thoughtful about how we support the community. How do we also drive return? And one of the ways we were able to drive return was negotiating for with three of those assets in Baltimore county for the pilot that you mentioned. So payment in lieu of taxes, 20 years with a 20 year extension potentially for the next buyer, which is really securing those units for residents who make less than 60% of AMI of Area B income. And again, it's a necessity to ensure that you're maintaining some housing stock for those folks who cannot more easily trade up from an income perspective.

[A]

And something I think you've been pretty direct about with some of your investors, at least I've read that you have been, is that you have folks that say, hey, I want to support underinvested communities, but they're still demanding a 20, 25% rate of return. Is the capital market community starting to maybe come around to a more realistic return expectation, or is that honestly still a hard conversation to have with some folks?

[B]

It's still a hard conversation to have with some folks. In my prior life, I did mention that I oversaw our capital raising an investor relations platform. In that role, I spoke to lots of public pension real estate professionals. And when you talk to the real estate professionals, the comptrollers, the CIOs, particularly of states that are high density and limited affordable housing. They understand the crunch because those are the beneficiaries of those pensions for the most part. And they understand that it is irrational to expect a 20 from that type of product. That being said, they are fiduciaries. And so they do need to generate a return. But if you can get a return that is, you know, call it 200 basis points above their actuarial requirement. Most of These requirements are seven to eight and a half percent. So if you can deliver a 10 to 12, they understand that they are achieving two goals. They're still being a fiduciary and the return they're delivering. And they're also being responsive to the communities in which they live and their beneficiaries live and where the greatest need for affordable housing is. Right. And so it could be your dense states like a New York, a Pennsylvania, a Maryland, a New Jersey, just to name a few. You know, these people understand the crunch. And so it's that type of capital that I think is, is willing to take more of a core plus return, if you will. But certainly the, you know, there's some large private equity players who, you know, they're just machines built for value at an opportunistic return. So it's very difficult to really get them to be thoughtful about the space. But I do think, you know, I feel, I'd say a little bit optimistic. I do think that in the last five to seven years we've seen more players enter with affordable housing capital that was more realistic in its return expectations.

[A]

Excellent. I want to move, you know, wrapping up our conversation by maybe putting our, our, our crystal ball out and asking you kind of what your outlook is for the Washington Capital region right now, specifically with the submarkets, Northern Virginia, Maryland, DC, et cetera. What is your outlook for this region and what asset classes within these markets are you most optimistic about going into 26 and into 2027?

[B]

Yeah, great question. I would say there's lots of optimism with respect to Northern Virginia. Still hear that a lot in the market. People still benefiting very much on the residential side, still seeing lots of interest on the data center side. I do believe the District proper is going through a bit of a transition. They're going to have a new mayor for the first time in, is it nine years, I believe or.

[A]

I think that's. Yeah.

[B]

So that's going to be an adjustment. And I do think you have seen from the current administration in D.C. a recognition that some of the policies that have been in place either through Mayor Bowser's administration or that predate her may be not the most investment friendly. And so there is. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out in the, the ultimate who, who wins the mayoral contest there. And with respect to Maryland, you know, I'm always going to root for Maryland as a Marylander, of course, I do hope that we can turn the tide and start to be, you know, a net beneficiary of residents instead of a net exporter of residents on an annual basis. But I do think that there are pockets of Maryland where investors are still very bullish with respect to investing. You know, we have very important infrastructure nodes, our connectivity north and south. You know, there's a lot of the, the U.S. population that you can reach from Maryland in a relatively short amount of time. And so I do view that as a positive that, you know, just geographically that's a benefit that you can't erase. And so I do think political stability helps. You know, having Mayor Scott reelected as one of the first two term Baltimore mayors in a while, that was helpful. And so I see green shoot. I do. I'm always going to root for Maryland. And I, and I just caution policymakers not to over index or over correct on some of the rental policies that we've seen in Montgomery county and Prince George's county, and that D.C. is really kind of trying to unwind right now.

[A]

Yeah. So this has been a great conversation. I've really enjoyed it. I do have one last question for you. And again, looking ahead, say five to 10 years from now, what will separate the real estate platforms that successfully scale and for those that maybe don't and plateau and kind of fall off in terms of relevancy? What do you think the most important thing that MCB is building right now with that horizon in mind?

[B]

Sure. I would offer judgment and adaptability matter more than anything. You know, markets change, capital moves, the cycles will certainly come and go. We're also entering an environment where AI and more advanced analytics are becoming standard in underwriting systems. And for me, that just makes judgment even more important because while technology can certainly help us process data faster, it still can't really tell you what matters right when conditions materially change. So I believe that we are at MCB well positioned because we sort of know who we are, we know what we're good at, and we actually can execute. Right. And I think capital is always going to be available for executors and for good ideas. And so I really see that as the place where if you want to remain viable, you know, over the course of the next five to 10 years, you need to ensure you really have operating depth, that you have access to capital, and that you stay disciplined and focused.

[A]

Excellent. Well, Gina, thank you so much. This has really been a very insightful, very enjoyable conversation. The work that you're doing Harbor Place, really looking forward to that. The very first crab cake I had growing up was at Harbor Place. So it's a special place for a lot of people for a lot of reasons. And the work you're doing at Viva White Oak and just across the affordable housing space, it really is the kind of bold, community grounded investing that I think defines where this industry is heading. So really appreciate your time. Appreciate you joining us today. And again, thank you very much.

[B]

Thank you. I appreciated this conversation.

[A]

Thanks a lot. Thanks for listening to Inside CRE conversations with people developing the future of commercial real estate. And again, thanks to our sponsor, Majestic Realty for supporting this podcast. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please share it with a colleague and subscribe so you can never miss an episode. To Learn more about NEOP and connect with more than 22,000 commercial real estate professionals, visit neop.org. It.