Brooke Devard on Building Naked Beauty

Summary

Podcast Summary: Naked Beauty – Episode Featuring Brooke Devard and Producer Ba Kasanga

Title: Brooke Devard on Building Naked Beauty
Host/Author: Brooke DeVard
Release Date: November 25, 2024
Description: Unfiltered conversations about beauty trends, self-care journeys, skincare, wellness tips, and beloved products, hosted by Brooke DeVard Ozaydinli alongside inspiring women.

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Introduction

In the final episode of 2024 of the Naked Beauty podcast, host Brooke Devard takes a departure from her usual role to be interviewed by her longtime producer, Ba Kasanga. This unique format provides an intimate glimpse into the behind-the-scenes dynamics of the show, the evolution of their professional relationship, and personal insights into the beauty industry and Brooke’s life as an entrepreneur and mother.

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Chapter 1: The Dynamic Duo – Brooke and Ba’s Collaboration

Building Trust and Understanding

• Ba Kasanga introduces herself as Brooke's producer, sharing her decade-long experience in podcasting that began with a digital journalism project at the College of William and Mary (00:59).
• Brooke Devard emphasizes the depth of their collaboration, highlighting how Ba’s understanding of Naked Beauty goes beyond surface-level beauty topics to the broader cultural implications (04:16).

Key Quote:

"I think the fact that you understand the show and that it's so much deeper than beauty... you get it." — Brooke Devard (04:16)

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Chapter 2: Building a Team and Managing Workloads

Collaborative Efforts

• Brooke discusses the dedication of the Naked Beauty team, noting the constant flow of ideas and the collective pride each member takes in the show’s success (05:58).
• Ba elaborates on the producer's role, emphasizing communication and the importance of having team members who bring unique perspectives (06:03).

Maintaining Balance

• The conversation delves into balancing multiple projects, with team members juggling other jobs and ventures, showcasing the team's commitment and passion (07:02).

Key Quote:

"Everyone cares about the show. Like, it's not like we are all employees of iHeartMedia that have been assigned to work on this podcast." — Brooke Devard (06:03)

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Chapter 3: Embracing Imperfection – The Philosophy Against Perfectionism

Done is Better Than Perfect

• Brooke shares her philosophy of prioritizing completion over perfection, encouraging podcasters to release their work without excessive refinement (11:23).
• Ba adds her experience, highlighting that producers are there to enhance existing content rather than create it from scratch, reinforcing the idea that imperfection is acceptable (12:20).

Admiration for Authenticity

• Both speakers agree that genuine efforts and authentic voices resonate more with audiences than flawless presentations, fostering a culture of transparency and growth (13:05).

Key Quote:

"Done is better than perfect. You just have to do the thing and put it out into the world." — Brooke Devard (11:23)

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Chapter 4: The Evolution of Work and Motherhood

Shift in Work Dynamics

• Brooke reflects on how motherhood reshaped her approach to work, moving from a corporate trajectory to entrepreneurial freedom, allowing her to balance her professional ambitions with personal responsibilities (08:27).

Flexibility and Autonomy

• She appreciates the flexibility of running her own business, enabling her to prioritize family moments without the constraints of traditional corporate obligations (10:12).

Key Quote:

"I can change my schedule in a way where I can go to a soccer game at 3:00 because I want to be there and just not schedule a meeting." — Brooke Devard (08:27)

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Chapter 5: Navigating the Beauty Industry

Celebrity Beauty Brands

• Brooke discusses her evolving perspective on celebrity beauty brands, admiring when celebrities leverage their influence for quality and inclusivity, such as John Legend’s skincare line focusing on melanin-rich skin (25:37).
• She highlights Sabrina Elba’s intentional community-building efforts and Alicia Keys’ authentic approach to self-care products (27:16).

Independent Beauty Founders

• The dialogue shifts to the challenges faced by independent beauty founders, with Brooke expressing deep admiration for entrepreneurs like Giada of Ami Kole who persevere through initial struggles to achieve success (28:58).
• Brooke shares her personal journey of launching her own products, emphasizing the intentionality and high standards she upholds (30:08).

Key Quote:

"I admire when celebrities basically use their power for good." — Brooke Devard (25:37)

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Chapter 6: Personal Reflections and Growth

Embracing Change

• Brooke speaks about her ability to adapt and pivot quickly, influenced by surrounding positive and optimistic individuals like Sir John (13:36).
• Ba relates by sharing her acceptance of being a workaholic, understanding the intrinsic motivation behind their relentless work ethic (07:21).

Motherhood and Partnership

• The episode delves into the importance of supportive partnerships, with Brooke praising her husband Umoud’s unwavering support and actions that back his words (40:17).
• Ba shares her admiration for Sean’s consistent support and the balance he helps maintain in her life (42:32).

Key Quote:

"He is my number one supporter, cheerleader. He believes in everything that I do." — Brooke Devard (41:29)

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Chapter 7: Future of the Beauty Industry and Podcasting

Trends and Predictions

• Brooke forecasts the growth of fragrance as a storytelling medium and the continued evolution of body care, acknowledging black women's long-standing role in the beauty movement (34:19).
• She discusses the nuanced perspectives on natural beauty versus enhanced treatments, stressing the importance of body autonomy and neutrality in beauty choices (35:21).

Podcasting Landscape

• Reflecting on the podcast’s journey from its inception on SoundCloud to becoming part of a larger podcasting renaissance, Brooke expresses excitement about the medium's growth and the rising diversity within it (21:20).
• Ba highlights the enduring intimacy of podcasts, valuing the deep connections formed with listeners (33:26).

Key Quote:

"There is no better time to shop Medicaite's best selling results driven skincare..." — Brooke Devard (28:42), though this seems like an ad, it's included in the transcript and hence noted.

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Chapter 8: Closing Thoughts and Looking Ahead

Impact and Community

• Brooke shares touching stories of how the podcast influences listeners’ lives, reinforcing the show’s meaningful impact (49:17).
• Both speakers express gratitude for their team and listeners, acknowledging the collective effort in shaping the show’s success (51:23).

Anticipation for the Future

• Excitement builds for the next phase of Naked Beauty, with plans to return in 2025 even more enriched and expansive, possibly exploring multimedia projects like a movie (50:43).
• Brooke and Ba reflect on personal growth, the importance of authenticity, and the limitless potential of their collaborative efforts (52:30).

Key Quote:

"I really value and hold, like, the Naked Beauty community so dear, because I feel like they've also really helped to shape the show." — Brooke Devard (50:44)

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Conclusion

This episode of Naked Beauty serves as both a reflective milestone and a forward-looking vision for the podcast and its creators. Through heartfelt conversations, Brooke Devard and Ba Kasanga explore the intricacies of building a successful media project, the importance of authentic relationships, and the ever-evolving landscape of the beauty industry. Their candid dialogue not only celebrates the achievements of the past year but also sets the stage for an exciting future filled with continued growth, meaningful connections, and impactful storytelling.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Brooke Devard: "Done is better than perfect. You just have to do the thing and put it out into the world." (11:23)
2. Brooke Devard: "I can change my schedule in a way where I can go to a soccer game at 3:00 because I want to be there and just not schedule a meeting." (08:27)
3. Brooke Devard: "I admire when celebrities basically use their power for good." (25:37)
4. Brooke Devard: "He is my number one supporter, cheerleader. He believes in everything that I do." (41:29)
5. Brooke Devard: "There is no better time to shop Medicaite's best selling results driven skincare..." (28:42)

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Timestamps Reference

• 00:01 – Opening remarks by Ba Kasanga.
• 00:16 – Introduction of Brooke and Ba.
• 00:48 – Brooke discusses the episode’s format.
• 04:16 – Brooke discusses Ba’s understanding of the show.
• 07:02 – Team dedication and work ethic.
• 11:23 – Discussion on perfectionism.
• 25:37 – Conversation on celebrity beauty brands.
• 34:19 – Trends in the beauty industry.
• 35:21 – Future of beauty and body autonomy.
• 40:17 – Importance of supportive partnerships.
• 49:17 – Impact of the podcast on listeners.
• 50:41 – Reflections on growth and future plans.
• 52:30 – Personal growth and authenticity.

(Note: The exact URLs for the timestamps are not provided here, as they typically would link to specific points in the audio or transcript.)

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Disclaimer: Portions of this transcript contain promotional content for Medicaite, a British clinical skincare brand, offering a 25% discount. This summary includes references to those segments to maintain completeness and accuracy.

Transcript

[Ba Kasanga]

Yo, remember back on the Bully when cats used to harmonize like, hello, Hello.

[Brooke Devard]

It's Brooke Devard, and you're listening to the Naked Beauty podcast. This is our final episode of 2024, and I'm joined by my incredible producer, Ba Kasanga.

[Ba Kasanga]

Hello.

[Brooke Devard]

Hello. Long time behind the scenes member of the Naked Beauty team. And this episode is really different because you are interviewing me. So I am in the interviewee scene seat right now, which is different for me. I'm gonna do my best. I have no idea what she's going to ask me. I have no idea what these questions are. Normally we'll talk beforehand for episodes. Oh, what are the questions? What are the topics? So this should be very interesting. But I thought this would be a really fun way. When you pitched it to me, like the great producer you are, I was like, this will be a fun way to wrap up the year. Yeah.

[Ba Kasanga]

I'm excited for you to be in the hot seat. It's not really a hot seat. It's a.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay. Yeah. This is like a warm. I don't. I don't know how I feel about anything in the hot seat. I'm like, let me get comfort.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yo, remember back on the Bully when cats used to harmonize like, hello, hello. This is not Brooke Devart. This is Ba Kasanga. I am the producer for Naked Beauty and I produce a couple other podcasts as well. I've been making podcasts for a decade now, I believe. What is it, 2024? Yeah, I've been making podcasts since 2014. I learned in a digital journalism class that I took in college. I went to the College of William and Mary, had a great digital journalism professor who taugh us how to put together a podcast from beginning to end. That was our final project, and I haven't stopped since. So on Naked Beauty, like you mentioned, we work together to ideate on the episodes, work on edits afterward, talk to a lot of people. I think that's the biggest thing. People are always asking me what the day to day of a producer looks like. And I think if you're a producer who produces, you're just talking to people all day long and trying to, like, make the pieces fit together to produce a beautiful story. So I'm excited to interview you. I feel like I've had so many hours worth of listening to your podcast, and I was a fan before I was the producer.

[Brooke Devard]

That's very cool.

[Ba Kasanga]

And that's actually a really good place for us to start because a few years ago, back in 2020, one, you were doing an anniversary episode. You put out a call to people, to the listeners, to have listeners come on the show. And I sent in an email. Oh, I wasn't on the show. I wasn't selected.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay.

[Ba Kasanga]

But I figured this would be a good place for us to start.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow.

[Ba Kasanga]

This is dated December 13, 2021.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow.

[Ba Kasanga]

Hi, Brooke. I'm hoping I'm not too late to get interviewed for the big anniversary podcast. I think it was five years.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh. Wait, did I respond to this?

[Ba Kasanga]

No.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Also, now that you know me, you know how I miss emails.

[Ba Kasanga]

I knew you were getting a flood, but I thought this was interesting.

[Brooke Devard]

Please, I'm dying to hear this.

[Ba Kasanga]

I live in Brooklyn, New York, and I listen to Naked Beauty because I believe the quickest way to get to know someone is to hear about the routines they do when no one is around. Beauty routines are so often done in a solo environment, but involve so much societal and communal context, which make them a great jumping off point to talk about culture as a whole. It's the little things that make up the big things. And I love that your podcast takes beauty seriously, both on a micro and a macro level. I hope I get selected to be interviewed, but if not, I hope this message at least lets you know how cool and impactful Naked Beauty is.

[Brooke Devard]

Beautiful email. So well said. And look at us here, what, three years later.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah, it's so funny to me. Actually, what's funny is I found it in the Naked Beauty Gmail.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh. Probably unopened.

[Ba Kasanga]

Unopened. But that was the perspective that I was, like, coming to the table with as, like, we were starting to talk about producing the show. So I want to talk about creative collaboration. I mean, you had done so much with Naked Beauty. Why did you feel like you needed a producer? And what do you think makes our working relationship work?

[Brooke Devard]

I think the fact that you understand the show and that it's so much deeper than beauty. Like what you said of, like, the little things make up the big things, and the micro is the macro. You know, even working with editors that didn't have any subtext in Beauty or didn't know the names or didn't know the topics. It's hard to make things like content cuts or decisions when you aren't familiar with this world. And I think knowing that you were a listener really helped. And I also just think you, like me, have a real appreciation for audible experiences. I grew up listening to public radio.

[Ba Kasanga]

Okay. Were you also an NPR Kid, I.

[Brooke Devard]

Loved npr, but you know what? I was more than npr. Every single day after school, I would come home and I would turn on 107.5, which was WBLS, and I would listen to Wendy Williams.

[Ba Kasanga]

Wow.

[Brooke Devard]

I listen to Wendy Williams. Charlamagne was her intern at the time.

[Ba Kasanga]

Oh, my gosh.

[Brooke Devard]

And I would listen to her for, like, two hours show. This is way before she has heard, like, TV show. She was just a radio personality. Yeah. I love audio, and I think you really love audio, too, and you appreciate audio. So I think that just made the working relationship really great. You love beauty, so you get it. It was just like, she gets it.

[Ba Kasanga]

What have you learned about building a team, working with a producer? Because I think a lot of people see Naked Beauty from the outside looking in, and they're like, holy shit. Like, it just keeps leveling up. And there's a lot of work that goes into it on the back end, but there's work done before that to find the people in the first place.

[Brooke Devard]

So.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. What have you learned about building a team? Working with a team, being a boss?

[Brooke Devard]

Everyone works really hard on the Naked Beauty team, I think you can agree. There are several text messages going off at all hours of the day, every day. You know, Alexa will text me. She'll be like, oh, I just saw someone stitch something on TikTok. And I'll be like, great, send it to Bridget. And then you'll say, oh, I think we could do this trend to tease our next episode. Like, everyone is on it. And I think it's because everyone cares about the show. Like, it's not like, we are all employees of iHeartMedia that have been assigned to work on this podcast. Like, we've all elected to do this, and it's a small team. It's five of us. But I think that everyone is really proud of the work, and I hope that everyone feels like part of the success of the show. And you, like me, are a very hard worker. You love to work.

[Ba Kasanga]

I do.

[Brooke Devard]

I do, admittedly.

[Ba Kasanga]

I think we all do. I think you might have selected for that trait, actually, because I think the thing that people aren't aware of is everybody who works on Naked Beauty also does other things, has jobs, has businesses, whatever.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, yes. Everyone is hustling in their own kind of separate way. Everyone's also been on the show now a while. How long has it been for you?

[Ba Kasanga]

It's almost two years.

[Brooke Devard]

April of 20. 20 years.

[Ba Kasanga]

Three is when we started working together.

[Brooke Devard]

I think we've kind of really hit our Groove.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

And hopefully it's fun.

[Ba Kasanga]

It is. It's very fun. Like the behind the scenes. I mean, it is a lot of work. But like you said, I think there are people who really, really derive so much satisfaction from working hard in general that. And I'm definitely one of them. I'm recently accepting that I am a workaholic. But, like, I don't even know that. I consider it to be a bad thing. My brain is just going. And so I'm like, might as well. And it's funny, my thought is always, what else am I going to do with this life?

[Brooke Devard]

Right?

[Ba Kasanga]

Like, I play and I have fun too. But like, yeah, for me it was first social media, doing little videos with my friends and then realizing how beautiful like the act of creation is.

[Brooke Devard]

It is.

[Ba Kasanga]

And doing a weekly podcast means you're creating something net new every week.

[Brooke Devard]

That's very true.

[Ba Kasanga]

So it's such a thrill to have that kind of quick feedback loop. But it's also a lot of work.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, it's also a lot of work.

[Ba Kasanga]

Pros and cons, what is your relationship now to work? How has motherhood changed that for you?

[Brooke Devard]

It's interesting. I think it shifted with motherhood first, and then it's shifted in the past year working for myself. So I can speak about those two shifts. I think the first shift with motherhood. I remember when I was coming back from maternity leave, having meetings, sitting in on meetings and having this kind of overwhelming feeling like, this is not important, this is not how I want to spend my time. What are we even talking about in this meeting? And it took me a while to even feel invested in the conversations happening in the workplace. Cause I'd just been out of it for so long. But I think that's when I started to have these inklings of I want to own my own time. And I think I'd been on such a corporate trajectory. Of course, you all know my mom, who's been on the podcast. She's like Miss Corporate America. So I think I'd been on this very kind of corporate trajectory. Trajectory. But then I think having a child made me feel like, what would it look like to really control my own time and work for myself? And then this past year, being an entrepreneur, I think it has been good for both my own, like, work, product, but also for being a mom, because I do have that flexibility. I can change my schedule in a way where I can go to a soccer game at 3:00 because I want to be there and just not schedule a meeting. Then, yeah. Versus, like, oh, we have our product XFN at 3:00. Like, you must be there because you're leading the meeting. So I really appreciate the flexibility that working for myself has allowed me with motherhood.

[Ba Kasanga]

I like the way that you put that. You were thinking about owning your time, not so much thinking about owning a business. Like, I think we're often thinking about the venture versus the life and the lifestyle.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, yes. And it's a lifestyle that you're responsible for.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right, Right.

[Brooke Devard]

Which can be a burden. Right. Because if you're stressed and you're overworked and you're burnt out, that's on you. You can't really blame your boss for that. It's up to you to kind of find your groove, figure out your schedule, build the lifestyle that's going to make you happy, and produce the best work.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right. I recently shifted my own thinking and realizing that taking care of me takes care of the work.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Ba Kasanga]

You know, it all sort of flows together. I think it can feel like getting away from work will make it worse, but oftentimes, I think especially in creative work, stepping away actually makes it a lot better. And having a lot of disparate influences makes a lot of better. Experiencing life makes it a lot better.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, absolutely.

[Ba Kasanga]

I love that. And you and I work really closely together, so I have also observed some traits about you that I really admire. One that I think that we share is that we're not perfectionists.

[Brooke Devard]

No.

[Ba Kasanga]

And I think people would be surprised to hear that. Talk to me about your philosophy on perfectionism. And for me, I feel like it can hurt as a creative person to be a perfectionist. What are your thoughts?

[Brooke Devard]

Done is better than perfect. You just have to do the thing and put it out into the world. And I think no one is scrutinizing you as much as you think people are scrutinizing you. I think especially with podcasting, I get so many, like, hand wringing questions about, like, I want to start a podc. And it's like, no one's going to listen for the first. It's fine, you know, put out a product and get into the habit of putting it out consistently, and that's what's going to help you and grow you. I think the other thing is, like, people love a glow up. Like, people love to see you grow in real time. So I rather show up in front of my audience and saying, like, this is where I am now and bring them along the journey than show up with it perfect and polished and, like, ready to go. So I think the more transparent you are about where you are in the journey, the better.

[Ba Kasanga]

That's so true. And I get similar hand wringing questions as a producer where people often think when they are starting a podcast, they need a producer.

[Brooke Devard]

No, I did my podcast for six years without a producer.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right. Yeah. You might drive a producer crazy if you start out with one. Because I think producers are similar to editors in the sense that it's about taking a product that already exists, a voice that already exists, and then elevating and adding to that, rather than this person is going to magically come down and give you a podcast idea that's going to give you a million followers.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. You know what? The thing I also reflect on a lot is about, like, who I admire and who I look up to. And I don't admire anyone for being perfect or I don't look up to anyone because, oh, I think they're so perfect. Showing up flaw free is not a trait that I aspire to.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. And that's so interesting. I never thought about it that way. The people that I admire, it's not because they're doing it flawlessly necessarily. It's because they're doing it.

[Brooke Devard]

They're exactly. Period. It's because they're doing it.

[Ba Kasanga]

I also feel like the other trait that you have is this real capacity for change. And I don't know if you even have a fully thought out philosophy on this, but it's something that I've observed of like. Like, how do you move so gracefully through change?

[Brooke Devard]

I think I'm very decisive. I think I'm a very decisive person, so I can make a decision quickly. I understand that, like, you just have to pivot and adapt. And pivot and adapt and pivot and adapt. I've learned from other people around me. Like, Sir John is always his, like, delusional optimism. He's always like, it's all gonna work no matter what's going on. Like, I remember before the Law Roach interview, it was like laws on a private jet from Paris. He sick. I was just like, this day, I can't handle it. My nerves are shot. This is just too much for me. And he was just like, babe, babe, it's all gonna work out. And I'm like, okay. I love that because I don't think I'm super sunny and optimistic all the time. I'm more, like, grounded in reality. When the reality hits, I can, like, quickly pivot and adjust. But I think, yeah, it's Just about making decisions quickly and then, like, moving on.

[Ba Kasanga]

I think that's a traitor. That is not talked about enough. I think particularly among women, we get this, like, rap for being really indecisive. And maybe that's where I have also kind of overcorrected. And I'm also a very decisive person. Yes, you are, in part because for me, I'm like, what are the stakes?

[Brooke Devard]

Right.

[Ba Kasanga]

Like you said, you know, you put out the podcast and it's terrible, but no one listens to it. Okay.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah, okay, okay, Exactly.

[Ba Kasanga]

You can take things down. You know, maybe it'll live on the Internet forever. But, like, I think, like you said, being grounded in reality while also having a foot in this sort of, like, optimistic sense, I also think when you trust yourself, you know that it's gonna work out because, you know, you're willing to do the work to make it work.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. I will say I really value that you have an opinion. And a lot of people, I don't know if it's that they're trying to be polite or they just actually don't have an opinion, but, like, you will push back on me. You will say, like, I don't think this is a strong place to start. I don't think we need this. I think we should cut this. I think we should move this question. I don't think this is a good person for us to interview. They may be superstar. No, we shouldn't do it. It's beneath us as naked beauty.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

I really appreciate, and you're almost a decade younger than me, but you do not hold back with your opinion, and that's what makes you a valuable producer. And I think a lot of people in the workplace, no matter what job you have, your value is your opinions. Right. It's your point of view.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

Come with a point of view. That's what makes you a valuable asset.

[Ba Kasanga]

To a team 10,000 times over. I feel like I get the question, too, from people who want to be producers. How do you become a producer? And in my mind, I'm like, produce. Like, make something. But it's exactly that. If you want to have an opinion, if you want to be the voice in the room that is shaping the creative vision, you have to say something. And I think we often end up in situations with people we admire, and it's really hard to critique anything that they've created. But I think if I had one tip, especially as a producer who's being brought in to something that already exists, do your homework. Find a million things that are great. Find ideas that you can build on. Like, oh, I think in the future, we should do X, Y and Z. And then find something to critique.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Ba Kasanga]

Because people really respect it. When you're able to not only have the wherewithal to do your research and find, obviously, something that makes sense to critique, but, like, find things that can actually be retooled and reworked.

[Brooke Devard]

And. And that's also a very important part about building a team. You're not just hiring people that are executing on your ideas. You're hiring people that are bringing new ideas to the table, building on your ideas and making something way better than what you could have created on your own. So it's always been really important to me, and that's why I, like, take so long, like, interviewing and having people join the team and making sure that everyone meshes together, that people are with something additive.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

Not just, like, following my orders.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right, right.

[Brooke Devard]

I admire Alexa for coming to me and saying, okay, I think we should approach YouTube this way. Bridget will push back on me and say, I think we should approach TikTok this way. Kayleen will say, I think the edit is stronger like this. Right. Everyone has a point of view that makes the end content better.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right. And in that, I think, is a great piece of advice, which is not to feel siloed necessarily, but to hone the places where you have expertise. So if social is your bag and you know it inside and out, don't feel like you need to be a podcaster just because podcasting is a thing. Right. Like, Bridget's not coming to you and saying, I want to be on the show. She's saying, hey, here's how you can take your show to this other channel. People are always looking for their blind spots, I think. And if someone is coming to you for your expertise, reach into that bag of knowledge and be okay saying that. It took me a really long time to say that. I've been making podcasts for a decade, despite literally having done that in part because I didn't feel like, oh, well, I'm not an expert. Like, I haven't really worked professionally in this, and I haven't done it. But our working relationship started because we were just chatting, and I was like, oh, yeah, I produce podcasts.

[Brooke Devard]

Right.

[Ba Kasanga]

So, yeah, if you don't own your expertise, no one else is going to do it for you.

[Brooke Devard]

Very true.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. I want to go back to that idea about perfectionism because I'd like to play you something special.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, gosh. All these, like, surprises.

[Ba Kasanga]

This is you're gonna totally cringe. So we only have to listen for, like, 15 seconds.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh. I'm not prepared. Okay.

[Ba Kasanga]

This is the very first episode, Episode one of Nathan Beauty.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh. Why are we doing this right now?

[Ba Kasanga]

Yo, remember back on the bully when cats used to harmonize like.

[Brooke Devard]

Hello, hello. I am Brooke, and you are listening to the first ever episode of the Naked Beauty podcast. This is something that I've wanted to do for a long time, and I finally just had to push myself off that ledge and say, do it. It's never going to be perfect. I could probably refine this until summer 2017 and make it as close to perfect as I could get it, but actually, perfect doesn't exist, so I just had to come to terms with the fact that you just gotta put it out there.

[Ba Kasanga]

I love that.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my God.

[Ba Kasanga]

1. Because your voice sounds so little.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah. Why do I sound like that girl? I'm like, you're so young.

[Ba Kasanga]

You were young. It's been eight years.

[Brooke Devard]

You've been listening to the Naked Beauty podcast.

[Ba Kasanga]

What does it feel like hearing that? Do you remember recording it?

[Brooke Devard]

I remember recording it. I remember thinking, okay, what do I want the music to be? And from the beginning, I had this idea of, like, okay, I want to do, like, early 2000s, like, 90s jams. And even just saying, like, the. Hello, hello, it's Brooke. I didn't say my last name, which is interesting. I remember. Yeah. What was the first sentence I said? This is something I've been wanting to do for a long time. So I just did it. I put it up on SoundCloud. Yeah, I put it up on SoundCloud and it felt great. Like you said, there's something so fun about creating. You don't. I don't create for an audience. The. The actual process of, like, creating and contributing something that even if just a handful of people enjoy, that's, like, what drives me. So I was having fun.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. And you put it up on SoundCloud.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah.

[Ba Kasanga]

Which is not necessarily a place to put podcast. Like, you were just, like, putting it out there. Right.

[Brooke Devard]

Well, back then, that's all we had. There wasn't even, like, an iTunes RSS feed. I mean, it was like, just the wild west of podcasting.

[Ba Kasanga]

In 2016, you've essentially watched an entire industry change. Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

Absolute.

[Ba Kasanga]

What's changed since that episode was recorded?

[Brooke Devard]

When it comes to podcasting so much, I mean, people didn't know. They were like, how do I listen to a podcast? I mean, that was like, a bit like A serious question. How do I listen to a podcast? How do I access a podcast? The podcast that was really popular at the time was serial from NPR. That came out in 2015, I think. So people kind of had an awareness of what podcasts were. The only consistent podcasters I knew about were Joe Rogan and Marc Maron, and I listened to both of their podcasts very often. Then there was the read.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yep.

[Brooke Devard]

And then, like, brilliant idiots came along. I asked Chris Moreau, who was behind the scenes on the read. I, like, had, like, a lunch with him at Soho House, and I was just like, I'm just so interested in podcasts and, like, what you're doing. And it's crazy because now I'm sitting here in WTF Media Studios, where Weezy and Mandy record Horrible Decisions, which was also an early podcast that I listened to. But, yeah, it's been insane to see how podcasting has grown now, and I think it's only gonna continue to grow. So I feel, like, excited that I get to be part of this, like, kind of podcasting renaissance.

[Ba Kasanga]

But, yeah, you were kind of early, early to the big wave of podcasters, but there's been multiple waves, and now it's so video centric. Podcasts are not only ubiquitous, but they're like a platform. Like, people start podcasts to build their platform. Do you think that's changed the quality of the conversations?

[Brooke Devard]

I don't think so. I think the more the merrier. The more the merrier. What is that saying? Like a rising tide, like, lifts all boats. Right. I think that it's great that so many people are in podcasting, and I hope more and more voices and more and more people join podcasting specifically, like, black women and black women in beauty. I mean, there were no beauty podcasts. There were so few black women in podcasting. Now I can look around and say there are all of these, like, black women specifically, that have podcasts about beauty and have beauty conversations. Like, right. That's incredible. Yeah, that just wasn't a category before.

[Ba Kasanga]

And I think it's similar to social media when people talk about a market being oversaturated. Like, oh, maybe this isn't worth doing. I don't think that's true either. Like, I think you're always going to find the people who want to hear what you have to say. I think if you're doing it for yourself, yes, you will always be satisfied. But the hope is that you find your audience.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. And I think the video thing is interesting because I don't watch podcasts. I listen to podcasts still, but there's so many people that have told me that they've discovered naked beauty through YouTube.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right.

[Brooke Devard]

So I'm like, if video is helping to reach a new audience and reach new people, then I'm happy.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. I was an Oprah super soul Sunday podcast listener.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Ba Kasanga]

I remember that Podcast S Town was the podcast that got me into podcast.

[Brooke Devard]

Shout out to Brian Reed. Have you heard his new show? No question. Everything. It's very good. You would like it a lot.

[Ba Kasanga]

I'm sure I would. I mean, we talked about this already, but I was definitely an NPR kid. And so for me, discovering podcasts was like, the feeling that I had when I would listen to, like, the American Story Hour on npr. And that was the thing that always really fascinated me was not just the ability to, like, tell the news or whatever, but to be able to have these, like, evening programs where it was storytelling. It was just people telling stories about their lives. Like, it didn't even have to be this, like, grand thing. And that comes back to our mutual love of audio and of radio, ultimately. And I always say, like, video might come and go. The radio will work after the apocalypse.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, that's.

[Ba Kasanga]

So I'm like, depending on it for future job security. I want to talk about the beauty industry. We've now had episodes with Sabrina elba, John Legend, Ms. Tina Knowles, Issa Rae, and I remember early on listening to your podcast and hearing you talk about celebrity beauty brands and not necessarily in a positive light, have the conversations that you've had with the. With the celebrities who have come on the show changed your perspective at all. What is your thought on the sort of celebrity beauty bubble, as it were?

[Brooke Devard]

Absolutely. I love this question. Put me in the hot seat. Celebrity beauty brands are easy to critique, and I've learned a few things since. One, Talking to celebrities. So there are two parts to this answer. One, I have now been in the process of being a founder myself. As you know, in the past year, I have released product that I've had to sell on a website. And I understand so much more about what it takes to launch a brand, build a brand, and sell a product to people. And then two, yes, talking to these celebrities about their beauty endeavors has been really interesting. So what I admire about specific brands, celebrity brands, is when they use their celebrity to get access to resources to do something that would be otherwise very difficult to do. So when we think about John Legend and loved one, he didn't need a skincare line, Right? But John Legend can get the capital Needed to create a product that actually has really good quality ingredients, like your jojoba oils, your sea buckthorn oils. I remember I talked to one, the president of the company at the time, and I was like, I buy sea buckthorn oil. Like, it is expensive. And she's like, not when you're buying like 30,000 units of it, because you have a contract with CVS and Walmart and you have built in distribution to 10,000 stores on launch day. And the fact that he said, okay, we're gonna launch this brand, we're going to test it on melanin rich skin from the beginning. That is not something that like a newcomer in the beauty space can do, like, at the price point with the research, with the backing. So I admire when celebrities basically use their power for good.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right.

[Brooke Devard]

I think about, like, Sabrina Elba and her husband Idris, and this desire that they have to shine a light on the continent and African beauty. And who better than this, like, gorgeous woman, this gorgeous couple with their, like, Hollywood good looks to be the people to make a beauty a household name. And the fact that she, like, links arms with the girls, like Giada from Ami Kole. Like, she's not just like, oh, I'm up here a celebrity. Like, she understands that there are other people that have been in the a beauty space that she builds with. So I think she's been intentional about building community. I loved our Alicia keys episode this year. 1. I think Keys Soul care is phenomenal product. Like, I actually think it's like, really, really great product. But you can tell that Alicia Keys had a very strong point of view about self care, why it was important to her, why she wanted to create ritual. I saw this Pamela Anderson clip from the Drew Barrymore show yesterday. And Drew Barrymore basically says, like, Pamela, you've owned this space of being makeup free. And I was like, the Alicia Keys erasure. Like, Alicia Keys is someone. And, you know, we talked about her cornrows and her braids on the episode. Like, she's always had a point of view about beauty. So she's come into this industry with a point of view and wanting to make something that's intentional and for many people. So I think the celebrities that we've spoken to are people that have a strong point of view or are doing something truly unique in the beauty space.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. And I'm glad that you brought up Jara and Ami Kole, because I almost wonder what you've learned from the opposite end of the spectrum from the people who are bootstrapping or independent or just trying to build something net new that we've never seen before.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Giada of Ami Kalei. If you guys have listened to the podcast, you know she's been on the podcast three times, actually. But when she even had the inkling of the idea of Ami Cole, she shared it on the podcast. Yeah, she gave me a pep talk at her launch in la. You were there, and I was like, I've just released these fragrances. I was like, selling things is difficult. It's like, a lot of work. And she was like, girl, I remember when I had 5,000 lip oils, and I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna sell 5,000 lip oils. She's like, now they're flying off the shelves. She's like, it took time to get there. She's like, I didn't have a big Instagram audience. I had all of this stock in this inventory. And I was like, how am I going to sell this product? She's like, you will grow. Like, when you first start, it feels like, how am I ever going to do this? My admiration for beauty founders, after the experience of developing something myself and selling something myself has just gone tenfold.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

It is really difficult to do. So I really appreciate hearing from founders that. Yeah, that have bootstrapped. I mean, she's raised money.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right.

[Brooke Devard]

Ami Cole is also the only beauty brand I've ever invested in, which is really telling.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. You've talked to a lot of people.

[Brooke Devard]

On the show, and people come to me with pitch decks all the time. I'm like, one. I don't have extra cash like this. Like, I'm so flattered that you're asking me for, like, a $20,000, like, seed investment. Don't really have that lying around. But Amicole is just one of the brands that I just, like, really believed in, and I still really believe in. And again, everything they do is so intentional, and they have such a clear point of view and clear audience in mind. And that's what I just always think about. For everything that Naked Beauty produces, whether it's a fragrance or hair rollers, I want it to be done at a high standard and with intention so that it means something when you're consuming a Naked beauty product, even if that product is the podcast.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right? Yeah, that's so true. I think if you're putting your business hat on, which I did go to business school, so I'm like, okay, the podcast is a product. It's bringing a lot of people in. And then there's A sort of, like, funnel to all of the other ways to experience naked beauty. And I think you did something kind of interesting when you were planning to release products. Right. Like, you told us last year what was gonna happen and what has the lived experience been like versus the planning and the sort of dreaming of it.

[Brooke Devard]

It's really gratifying to have something out in the world in people's hands that they experience. It makes me so happy that you use the hair curlers. Like, when you send me the little selfie with the curlers in, I'm like, you look so cute.

[Ba Kasanga]

I love them.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. And the fact that I remember using flexi rods and going to sleep and waking up angry because my sleep quality was bad. Like, my neck hurt. Like.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

And I'm just like, it shouldn't be like this, you know? And I think, like, I think about people putting in hair rollers and, like, having a beautiful sleep and then unwrapping them in the morning, like Christmas morning and seeing their curls. Like, these are things that make me really happy. When I hear people that say that wear the Naked Beauty fragrance every day. I mean, I wear it every day.

[Ba Kasanga]

But it's really good, guys.

[Brooke Devard]

It is. It is great. Definitely buy a bottle if you don't have a bottle yet. That's my marketing plug.

[Ba Kasanga]

And I will say this is like a genuine plug as well for me, because if there's one fragrance that gets me a compliment every single time I wear it, even if it's just from the people in my own home, the Naked Beauty fragrance does it every time.

[Brooke Devard]

It does. Yeah. Every time people are like, that smells so good. But feeling like, oh, my gosh, I'm part of people's lives and their routines, that feels so, so good. But on the other hand, even people that have never purchased anything from Naked Beauty, like. Like, when people say, like, I spend my Mondays with you, that's the highest compliment.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

Cause that's time. That's a relationship. We're in a relationship.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. No, truly. I think that's one of the things that draws me to podcasts as a medium as well, is the intimacy of an hour spent with someone weekly or bi weekly or whatever the cadence is. There is no other scenario in 2024 where anyone has my undivided attention before an hour. Like, even when you're on a teams meeting your flo to other tabs. But to stay engaged and sort of, like, enraptured in something for an hour that you can't even see is a big deal. It's Hard to tangibly see that in the same way with a product, though, right? Like, we can see the download numbers, but it's so hard to imagine that many people actually listening.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh, yes. I mean, that's like people always say, like, oh, my podcast, I'm struggling with growth. And like, if you have a hundred listeners, if you were in a room full of a hundred people and they were all, all sitting there listening to you, you would be like, holy. Like, this is a huge audience, you know?

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah, no, that's so true. I want to know what your larger perspective on the beauty industry is. Right. Like, I think we have a really interesting vantage point as inside outsiders a little bit. You always say you've never worked in beauty, but, like, you have a job in beauty, essentially. Where are we going next? Like, we had Lip Oil Mania. We had Tomato Blush. We've had every food version of a makeup trend. We've got high contrast makeup right now. Where are the products going, though?

[Brooke Devard]

Ooh, it's so interesting because I feel like I'm able to predict trends before they happen. Like, the whole body care movement, like, I saw it coming. I saw it coming from a mile away. As soon as, like, white women were talking about, like, putting on lotion, I was like, guys, this is new for you. But I was like, there going to make this, like, a thing. And now body care is, like, this huge thing, and everyone's talking about body care. And I'm like, black women have been doing body care for so long, since the dawn of time, but happy to have more people putting on lotion after the shower. That is net positive.

[Ba Kasanga]

And hopefully washing their legs while they're in there, too.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Hopefully. We're, like, washing, we're scrubbing, we're putting on creams afterwards. I think, again, this isn't to just reinforce what I've already done, but I do think fragrance is a really interesting space that's going to grow in beauty in the next few years. I think fragrance is just like a great arena for storytelling, for expressing your mood. It's just like one of those things. Fragrance can alter your mood in a way that very few other things can.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

I also think we are moving towards more neutrality when it comes to decisions people make about their beauty and upkeep. So I think I used to be a lot more judgmental about Botox and filler and all of those sort of things. But as I've spoken to women that do those things, I've realized the choice is theirs, if that's what people want to do now. I think a lot of people will tell you that we're going to move away from it. The pendulum is going to swing the other way, and people are going to stop doing all of these things. I don't think that's true.

[Ba Kasanga]

Interesting. So I don't think people will stop doing those things, But I do think, and I think this is already happening, that there will be a sort of elevated status for natural beauty.

[Brooke Devard]

Interesting. I don't think so, really. I actually think natural beauty is going to be completely overrated because you can pay for everything.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right.

[Brooke Devard]

You can pay for the perfect eyebrows. You can pay for the perfect nose.

[Ba Kasanga]

Well, I think that's exactly it. I think instead of going on tik tok and saying, here are all the things that I do, which I think this is already happening, happening, there's people who will go heavy on telling you all the treatments they do. There's people who are like, I don't do any treatments. I'm a skin care girl.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Ba Kasanga]

And that's not necessarily an elevated status, but it's a thing. It's an in group.

[Brooke Devard]

I feel like that's my. That those are my people. I'm like, skin care is the thing to spend time on.

[Ba Kasanga]

I think being able to be the girl that wakes up in the morning and is like, I just washed my face is gonna become not necessarily elevated, but it'll be part of the narrative. I think it already is. Right. Like, in the same way that we have this, like, trad wife movement or whatever. Like, there's a certain amount of going back to the earth being natural. And I think that. I don't know that it'll be a dominant storyline, but I think it'll be. Here's this beautiful movie star. And by the way, she hasn't had any work done. Isn't that crazy? Where the whispers used to be. Oh, my gosh. I think she had work done. I think it's going to be. Oh, I think that's actually her original face.

[Brooke Devard]

Her original face. Interesting. We'll see. I think it's going to become more and more common.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think it already has. I also feel that when we talk about treatments and rituals, like, we're often talking about Botox and things like that, but there's such a long history of women being moved through different types of beauty treatments.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Ba Kasanga]

That I do think that's just gonna continue.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Well, I think about the top of. Was it this year or last year where we wanted to do an episode about Ozempic. And it was so early in the Ozempic conversation. And I'm happy that we didn't, because, again, I think it's really difficult to have those conversations without judgment. And that's like, what I really, really value as I get older. The older I get, the less judgmental I become. I don't judge anyone for any choice that they make.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

And I think that when I was younger, I had, like, judgments like, you should accept your body this way and you should do this and you should age gracefully this way. And now I'm just like, you want to have lashes out to here and you want to do the most severe contour ever and you want to have, like, filler and you want to get the bbl Good. Do what you want, like body autonomy. If you want to be on Ozempic and you don't need it, but you just want to be on it, it. And. And it's your body and that's what you want for yourself.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right.

[Brooke Devard]

Then that's okay.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. There's no one way to live a life.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Ba Kasanga]

There's no one way to be beautiful. And I can definitely understand that, like, movement toward neutrality. I think you have a lot more grace than the general public. Like, I think we've already moved toward whatever neutrality we have. And I'm glad that you brought up OIC, because I think that's a great example where I lost the weight naturally. Right. Like, it's already sort of like a separate class to have lost the weight without the help, quote unquote. And I think all of these tools that we use and that we introduce for ourselves inherently create in groups and out groups.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Ba Kasanga]

And some people value that status, whether that's, I have the BBL and I have the money to be able to do all these treatments, or it's, I'm natural. I accept myself. Right. It's a separation and a division either way.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Yeah. It's really fascinating.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. You've talked before about how important partnership is to everything, life in general. But I think particularly for young, ambitious women.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Ba Kasanga]

It is really important to have a great partner to support that, to choose a great partner to support that. How has your partnership, your marriage, sort of anchored you through the last two years?

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, wow. I mean, umoud is just incredible. I'm so grateful to him every single day. 1. I think he supports and believes in my dreams. He is more delusional than I am about my own career. Like, he literally will always tell me, like, you can do anything. You can Be anything. He always tells me, like, this is. Is just the beginning. Like, you're gonna look back on this. He is my number one supporter, cheerleader. He believes in everything that I do. But then he also backs that up with action. Meaning if he has to watch Mavi one night because I'm working late. Not just one night, many nights, then he's going to do that. Like, this morning, he brought me breakfast in bed. Cause he knew that I was prepping for this big interview I had today. He shows up for me in ways that show me that he really cares. And he's really invested in my success, Us. And I know Sean has been your amazing partner. Sean, the best has been the same for you. And it. It. It just makes me happy when I see young women find themselves partnered with men or women that recognize their hustle, that recognize, like, you're grinding, you're working. Like, right now, we're recording late. My husband's not going to text me and be like, what are you making for dinner? He knows you guys are on your own tonight.

[Ba Kasanga]

You know, I think that is. Is so, so true. And I would add to that the piece of him saying, this is just the beginning. You can do anything for me. What's really interesting in Sean and in observing Shawn, support me. My success is never a surprise to him. He is never shocked, never surprised. And that's like a level of assurance and trust that I don't take for granted at all. Because he assumes that I'm gonna succeed. And if for some reason there's a stall or a quote unquote failure along the way, he's there to be like, okay, great, this didn't work. But you're still gonna go places. Like, we still have somewhere to be, which is really great. And then I think, as a now proclaimed workaholic, he's great about telling me when it's time to ease up. You know, if I'm like, oh, I need to work tonight, he's like, what nights don't you work? I'm like, oh, wait, you're right.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. That's the other thing. When you're someone that loves to work a lot, making sure that you do those date nights that you do have, nights that you're just at home watching a movie, cooking dinner. Like, that time is really sacred to us as well.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. And I love what you said about proving it with actions. I'll tell this story about Sean because. Cause he's the best. But when we interviewed Ms. Tina Knowles, that was insane. Right? Like, that whole process was insane. And at the time I was living in New York, Sean was living in dc. He flew from DC to LA to be here with me for that recording.

[Brooke Devard]

Amazing.

[Ba Kasanga]

But not only did he do that, he got a flight that landed an hour before me so that he could go get a rental car and pick me up at the airport, and then drove me to the studio for everything that we needed to do that day. So to that point, right, like, words are great. I'm a words of affirmation girl. Like, I appreciate the sort of, like, you got this, you're gonna succeed, but when someone shows up to take part in your success.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Ba Kasanga]

It's like a whole nother level.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. That is the type of person you want to build your life with. And I'm also excited. You know, we have our dinner tomorrow night where we're gonna celebrate the wrap of Naked Beauty this year with Sir John and Queen, his producer. But also, I wanted umut to come because every single episode, he's been there behind the scenes. He also listens to the podcast.

[Ba Kasanga]

Sean downloads every episode.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. He gives me feedback. He'll say, I really like this. He just listened to the Bridget Romanek episode by Interior Design. He's like, I learned so much. Like, where's her book? Like, so. Yeah, Like, I. I think it's really important to find a partner that's part of your team and is invested in your success.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that ladders down. Right. Like, whether we see it or not, we're always sort of modeling a way to live life to someone. And seeing your ambition and motherhood and partnership sort of gel together. And also knowing a little bit of the behind the scenes, it's really clear that like, like, a really strong, stable partner is a big part of that.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. And you know what my mom told me? I was telling her, I was like, I'm wrapping up the year and I've been thinking about doing a urine review, all of the growth stuff. And she's like, and you did all of this while you were pregnant?

[Ba Kasanga]

Right.

[Brooke Devard]

So it's like, oh, yeah, there's that too.

[Ba Kasanga]

Like you have a human in your body right now.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Like, I went through, like, the first trimester having no energy, feeling sick, feeling nauseous, like. Yes. Like, doing all of this this year while pregnant. I mean, essentially my first year for a full calendar year, working for myself also.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. And your first non Covid pregnancy too. Right. Like, that's a big difference. The whole world is moving again.

[Brooke Devard]

It's been a lot. It's been a very eventful year, but I'm so grateful for every moment, the ups and the downs.

[Ba Kasanga]

How are you feeling about bringing a girl into the world?

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, you know what? I thought I was gonna, like, be chill about gender. I'm not, I'm not. I've already painted her nursery pink. The room, the ceiling. I've done this, like, beautiful, like, Roman clay in this soft pink. I'm getting custom curtains made next week and, like, a blush color. Like, I've already started buying the little outfits, the little dresses.

[Ba Kasanga]

I'm so excited. It's crazy because Baby is baking, has no idea who we are, but we're all like, oh, my gosh, I can't wait to meet her.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh. And here's the thing, right? Like, she could be like, I hate dresses, I hate pink, and it will.

[Ba Kasanga]

Still all be worth it.

[Brooke Devard]

What is all of this? Right? It's such an antiquated idea of, like, gender. Like, oh, I'm having a little girl. And, like, I thought, like, I was, like, more evolved and, like, I wouldn't fall into it.

[Ba Kasanga]

But no, I think there's something to the mirroring, right? Like, you've been a girl, you're now a woman, and you know how special that is.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Women are just so special.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right. And so the thought of being able to bring another girl who will eventually be a woman into the world, and you also have a really matrilineal family.

[Brooke Devard]

Very strong women in our family. Very strong women in our family.

[Ba Kasanga]

I'm excited and I'm glad that you mentioned Sir John. How was it? Sharing the mic?

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, so Sir John, one of the loveliest people. Genuinely, Genuinely. You've experienced it, you see it. You see our working relationship. I think before I came to la, actually, when I first got to la, people were like, people in LA are so fake and it's so Hollywood and blah, blah, blah. And I just find him to be one of the most genuine people that I've met. And he's genuinely interested in connecting with people, in making people feel good, and that's what makes him great to be around. And then you layer on top of that, like, his movie star good looks.

[Ba Kasanga]

Truly the handsomest man in the world.

[Brooke Devard]

Just, like, so handsome, so charismatic.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

But, like, at the core, he's just a good person. Yeah, he's a good person.

[Ba Kasanga]

That was honestly a big lesson for me. When we did the Sir John episode last December, and we put it up on YouTube and seeing the comments roll in from people who had met him for 15 minutes 20 years ago, saying, he was so wonderful. Like, it's such a testament to being yourself in all situations and being kind in all situations, because you really don't know where you'll end up and who will remember. Remember the sort of kindness that you've showed them along the way.

[Brooke Devard]

Totally. And it was a risk for the podcast as well, for the existing listeners. I didn't want to, like, alienate anyone or be like, this isn't the show I signed up for.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

We did 10 episodes co hosted together this year. Now there are 52 weeks a year, and the podcast comes out every single week. So some people have been like, oh, is he a permanent part of the show? And I'm like, no, we did this series together. He's welcome to come back anytime. But it was also a big creative risk. I've been doing it alone for. For a really long time, but I was willing to take the risks because I could feel. And that's why we interviewed him first. I could just feel this is going to work.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think he is someone who really is such a true creative.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Ba Kasanga]

In every sense of the word. So, you know, you mentioned as we were setting up, like, he's telling us how the lights should go. He's telling it right. Like, I feel like he is invested in a full vision, and he's going to set the stage, he's going to get the plants, he's going to talk about the lighting. Like, his brain operates on so many levels creatively, which is really such an exciting thing to bring to the show.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. He's added to the naked beauty universe so much.

[Ba Kasanga]

So what keeps you excited about podcasting and doing naked Beauty?

[Brooke Devard]

I love getting to know people, I love talking to people, and I love sharing people's stories in a way that inspires others. Amelia called me today and she was like, I told my fiance, I'm gonna have a home birth. I was like, I listened to Elaine and I just need up my next house to have a great shower because I'm going to have a home birth, and I'm going to do the shower epidural.

[Ba Kasanga]

Right.

[Brooke Devard]

Just the way she did. And it's like, oh, my gosh. Being able to impact the way people see their lives or decisions that they make or just make them think about something more deeply is something that I really value. And it's something that's so sacred and special. So being a part of that for people really matters to me.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. I'm excited for our break.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. On our last Team meeting. I was like, literally, no one deserves a break more than us.

[Ba Kasanga]

Truly. I'm very, very excited. But I'm also excited to come back in 2025 and keep telling bigger, better beauty stories. I don't know. We might be making Naked Beauty the movie at, like, when you and I first started working together, I remember we had a conversation maybe, like, a month in, and I think we had booked a big interview, and I don't even remember who it is now, which is, like, very telling. But we both said to each other, like, oh, wow, like, we're on a rocket ship. Like, this is really happening. And here we are.

[Brooke Devard]

Here we are.

[Ba Kasanga]

It's been such a ride.

[Brooke Devard]

It's been such a ride. I think, think I now realize, like, the sky is the limit. There's really, like, no limit to what we can achieve. And it's just, like, how do we tap into the collective vision? And also, just, like, feedback from listeners is so important. Like, I really feel like I. I just value and hold, like, the naked beauty community so dear, because I feel like they've also really helped to shape the show.

[Ba Kasanga]

They're also a group of. Of majority women because I see the stats behind the scenes, but it's a group of really smart people.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, yeah.

[Ba Kasanga]

Really, really smart people who are all doing incredible things in their own lives.

[Brooke Devard]

Absolutely.

[Ba Kasanga]

I look at the comments after every single episode goes live on social, and it is always amazing to hear, like, oh, this was such a great interview, or I really liked this, or I thought about this. And now even seeing, like, the law roach clip, that's been kind of going around. Right? Like, like you said, like, bringing that sense of a new perspective, but also genuine lack of judgment and affirmation. Unparalleled. So it's been such a gift working with you for the last year and a half. This sounds like we're ending. I'm not going anywhere. But I think it was really important to me that we sit down and acknowledge, like, how far we've come. How far you've come from that little tiny voice.

[Brooke Devard]

Voice, oh, my gosh. Really shook with. Why did my voice sound like that?

[Ba Kasanga]

Were you, what, 26, 27?

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah. But I have a deep voice.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it so funny? Like, I feel like that's the first time nerves. I'm sure if you were to listen to, like, the first five episodes, you'd be like, who is this girl?

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh.

[Ba Kasanga]

How have you changed since that voice?

[Brooke Devard]

As I mentioned before, I've gotten much less. Less judgmental and it's like you hear older people say things like, oh, the more I know, the more I realize I don't know. But it's very true. It's very true. Like, part of getting older and getting wiser is just like letting go of any preconceived notions you have about anything and just realizing that there's so many different ways to live life and approach things. And I think I've also become just more sure of my point of view to go back to, like, you know, sometimes we get offers from people to be on the show that are huge names and it's like, no.

[Ba Kasanga]

Yeah. And feeling confident in that. I think for me, from the first episode that I produced, I feel like I've learned a lot about how to tell a story, honestly, how to put together a story that makes sense but also is compelling to people. And it's that same sense of, you get the email, you see the name, and you're like, if I'm not excited about it when I'm reading the email, then I'm probably not going to be excited about it when I'm listening to it. Okay, we have to end your infamous question. I guess I can answer it as well since I'm a first timer on the pod. But when do you feel most beautiful right now?

[Brooke Devard]

Well, you should answer first.

[Ba Kasanga]

Should I answer first? Okay. Right now I feel most beautiful in the mornings, but not, not necessarily like the pre face wash, pre brush teeth. I'm so beautiful because I'm just human version. But I have crafted this beautiful multisensory morning routine. I light incense, I play music. I'm usually knitting for like 15 to 20 minutes, just in the sun, in the morning with my coffee. And I think I feel most beautiful then because my life is a reflection of all the things that I wanted. That peace, the ability to curate your home. You talked earlier about your responsibilities. Sometimes feeling like burdens and quote that I heard this year about what freedom means. And she says, freedom is the ability to choose your responsibilities. So I feel most beautiful then because I feel like I'm about to work the job that I want to work. I'm running the business that, that I've always wanted to have. I'm sipping my coffee, I'm lighting my incense. Like all of these little decisions along the way created the life that I have now. So yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, I love that. I love that. And it sounds like you've got a great morning. I'm like, need to retool my.

[Ba Kasanga]

Oh, yeah. My multisensory Morning routine. I'm all about it. Like, you gotta smell something. You gotta listen to something. You gotta eat something.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. I'm loving that. I need to take notes. For me, it is when my son, like, runs home. He literally, like, comes into the front door and he, like, takes off his shoes and he sprints to me, and he's like, mommy, Mommy. And then he'll find me. I'm usually, like, in the kitchen or in my office. And then he just, like, wants to tell me, like, all about his day. Yeah, that just, like, makes me feel so good that he's, like, excited to see me and excited to tell me all the things that happened at school that day. The other night, I was reading him a book, and he was like. Like, no one reads to me the way you read to me. Like, I love when you read to me. You're my favorite person who reads to me. And that just, like, makes me feel like I'm doing everything right. You know, you can achieve a lot in your career, but there's just something about, like, when your child just shows how much they love you that just, like, makes you feel so good.

[Ba Kasanga]

And Mavi doesn't even know that you interviewed Issa Rae today. That's crazy.

[Brooke Devard]

He doesn't even know, but I interviewed Issa Rae today.

[Ba Kasanga]

Oh, I love that. That's such a great note to end on. I'm so excited for you to meet your baby girl.

[Brooke Devard]

I am very excited as well, and I'm so excited for you in the way that your business has grown, because I've gotten to see you become an entrepreneur in the past year. Launch Moyo Studios. Bring on clients. Bring on corporate clients. Launch your own podcast. That's incredible. All about books. Give it a quick plug.

[Ba Kasanga]

It's called Unbound. And, yes, I did. I started a whole business, and I think you were a big inspiration for seeing you rebrand Naked Beauty last year was a big light bulb moment for me where I realized, like, I'm already producing. I can start a production company. So I hope that, similar to me, like, as one of your former listeners, other people are also encouraged to sort of take the leap and just do the thing. Because, truly, what are the stakes?

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, do the thing. Just start. Don't put so much pressure on yourself. And, yeah, do it with love and intention and that creative, like, spark. And that's, like, what makes a good life, right?

[Ba Kasanga]

Absolutely. Well, I think we say goodbye now until 2025, which feels crazy, I know.

[Brooke Devard]

Well, I hope everyone listening has a beautiful holiday season and revisit episodes from past years. Absolutely got eight years of content. There is my little baby voice Voice in the 2016 episodes that there there's a deep archive and we'll be back in 2025 better than ever.

[Ba Kasanga]

Truly. Truly. Thanks so much.

[C]

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[Ba Kasanga]

Oh you better watch out.