B (3:13)

But it was in March, so we.

A (3:15)

Know in January that we were nominated and that we were going.

B (3:18)

I think we knew we were nominated.

A (3:20)

Okay.

B (3:21)

I don't know that we, like, had made plans to go south by Southwest and, like, do the whole thing. But yes, we. I think we had the nominations.

A (3:29)

Yes. So, yeah, I was eager to get back on the mic, but. But at a slower pace. At a slower pace. In our interview at the end of 2024, we just talked about how it was, like, full. Like, we just went for it. We were like, like, this is it. Like, this is the year. And, you know, this is my second baby. So I just know, like, pretty much the whole first year, you're doing a lot of surrendering, a lot of surrendering. So I wasn't going in guns blazing, but I was excited to return.

B (4:00)

Absolutely. Did you have any fear about taking that long of a break? I think that might be the longest break you've ever taken.

A (4:09)

I loved it. As, you know, as I talked about on the podcast, I loved my time offline. I was thinking, like, can I get away with doing that again? I can't. People have a lot more grace for you when you literally have a newborn. I loved my time offline. And also, you know, listen, 2026 is going to be 10 years of naked beauty. Right. So I do feel this certain level of, like, comfort and appreciation for this audience that has been with me and been with us and been with the show year after year after year that I, I, I don't know, I just kind of feel like the community is there.

B (4:45)

Yeah. I want to talk about that slower pace you were talking about and kind of squaring that against the fact that you also went back to corporate this year.

A (4:55)

Oh, my gosh. Wow. Really? So much happened.

B (4:57)

So much happened. So, yeah. How do you feel about that slower pace now, juggling both?

A (5:03)

I mean, the slower pace is gone. It's gone. Let's be upfront, let's be honest. The slower pace, you know, I had a nice slow two months, and then it was back to full throttle, 100 miles per hour. And I feel like we've talked on the show about the fact that I'm a workaholic. It was interesting being in London with you because I feel like I observed that you, too are a workaholic.

B (5:23)

You're like, oh, I've got 15 minutes free.

A (5:25)

Yeah, secret is out. You're like, I've got 15 minutes free. Like, let me do this for a client. Let me get this video edited. Let me. I'm like, oh, do you want to, like, walk around and, like, go to a shop? You're like, actually, I would prefer to work.

B (5:35)

Listen. And I think that's the thing. One of the reasons I think our creative pairing works is because I get the sense that you are also always working in the background. But the balance is like, I'm enjoying myself, I'm having a good time. I really genuinely am. But, yeah, if I have those in between moments, I am. It looks like I'm scrolling on my phone all the time I'm working. And I. I think that works for the business that we're in. You kind of do have to be always on, but you don't have to put in 100% all the time.

A (6:12)

Yes. So, okay, you also got engaged this year.

B (6:16)

Yes.

A (6:17)

Very exciting. How does your partner Sean feel about the pace at which you work? I know he works very hard as well.

B (6:24)

Yeah, Sean knows me really, really well. Better than I know myself, Like, I think. Okay, so this is where I get a little open, because I did not believe that I was a hard worker until I was like, 26. I'm about to turn 29. So for. For most of my life, I felt like I was operating at normal. And only now am I realizing just how ambitious and intense I am.

A (6:53)

Yes. Oh, my gosh. I looked at your Instagram story last night, and you, like, literally threw a whole event. As if that wasn't enough, you were also behind the DJ booth and you were like, PS, I taught myself how to dj. I was just like, when does she find the time to do this?

B (7:07)

I feel like. So we kind of switched roles. Right. Because I was working full time in producing Naked Beauty up until the end of 2020, and 2025 was my first year working full time for myself. And I'm actually really glad that you brought up the DJing of it all, because I realized that I have a new sort of, like, creative philosophy, which is, like, low stakes creative decisions constantly to, like, stretch the muscle so that when I'm doing the high stakes stuff, the stuff that's branded, the stuff that's going out to thousands or millions of people, it feels a lot less scary. So you know this. I knit, I watercolor, I DJ now. I love.

A (7:56)

You cook.

B (7:57)

I cook a lot. Yes. I love to cook. That's a huge hobby of mine. And I know that sounds so like artsy and like, woo woo. But I think there are so few moments where my brain is really sort of like chill and like cooking, watercoloring, knitting. Those are all moments when I'm able to like, act on instinct without it being a catastrophe if something goes wrong, if I burn the food, whatever. If the watercolor is ugly, whatever. If I knit something terrible, I literally can take it apart and re knit it if I want to. So, like, that allows me to feel a lot less precious about making a really big show or writing a piece that ends up going in the strategist. I think it flexes the muscle.

A (8:47)

Absolutely. So when I started naked beauty in 2016, I was working at Viacom full time.

B (8:53)

Yeah.

A (8:53)

Before starting Naked Beauty, I put so much stake in all of my creative ideas at work and I would be devastated if they didn't work out. It's like, you know, you work on a 15 slide PowerPoint and you present it to all the stakeholders and then if it didn't move forward, I was like, yeah, devastated. And then I realized, okay, you have all of these creative ideas, you need to channel it somewhere else that you have more control over. And it made me have a much more non attached. You know, you always still care about work, but it made me realize that my work, the people that paid my salary, didn't have to be my end all be all right.

B (9:26)

Yeah, absolutely. That's actually such a good segue into my next question because at this point you do so, so many different things. You're CCO of Refinery29, you're a creator, so you're showing up on our feeds in like a different outfit, a different thing all the time. You're a mom. You are also a podcaster. And in being a podcaster, Naked Beauty is a business. So you're like CEO of Naked Beauty as well. Right. So at this point I'd love to know, like, how you identify, like, how do you introduce yourself? What? When someone who doesn't know you is like, oh, what do you do?

A (10:04)

Sometimes I just keep it at. I work in media and that's only because I find it really obnoxious when people like, lead with like their title and they're like, oh, it's just like exhausting. I remember I, I studied French in high school. And our teacher was very, very French Parisian woman, Madame Pradapis. And she would always say this idea of asking people what they do for work at, like, a dinner party or a social setting is so. So American. She's like, you would meet a banker at a dinner party in Paris, and they would tell you that they're an artist because, like, that's what they do on the weekend. Like, they paint on the weekends. Even people asking, like, so. So what do you do for work? Like, I just find it, like, don't you kind of hate. I kind of hate that question.

B (10:40)

I mean, it's not a question that I find myself asking often, but I also recognize that both in my life as a producer and in my life as a market researcher, I literally come up with questions to ask people. I come up with angles. I'm thinking about stories. And so I've started to recognize that, like, it is a skill. Conversing is a skill that, like, a lot of people don't think of or work on in that way. And so you end up with the dreaded what do you do? Question. So I'll ask you a different question. Do you identify personally as, like, a creative, as an executive, or do you not feel that any of those titles neatly sums up who you are?

A (11:30)

So I identify as a creative 100%, and I know that I'm a creative because. What's the Erykah Badu quote? Like, I'm an artist, so I'm sensitive about my shit. Like, when brands come back to me with feedback, like, I get, like, emotional. I'm like, I worked so hard on the narrative for this reel, and, like, I am doing this, like, beautiful storytelling, and you just want me to cram your brand name in the first three seconds, and it's not authentic, and it's not my voice. And you hired me as a creative, and, you know, the brand writes back like, that's great. Like, we don't care. Like, just stick to these talking points. I definitely identify as a creative. I also think that we're probably all creative. Like, I. I don't know if I believe that there are people that are creative and not creative. It's funny. At work, I report into the CEO. He and I are, like, complete opposites, I would say. But I really, really, really enjoy working for with him. I learned so much from him, but he's always like, I'm not creative. And I'm like, no, but you are creative in your own way. And the way that you see how the number should work and the way that you think about strategy and the way that you think about, like the organizational operation. So I feel like everyone is low key, a creative. The other, you know, part of my work that you didn't mention is just like my life as a founder, you know, like, yeah, the Naked Beauty fragrance, even my heatless hair rollers. Having a brand and nurturing that and hearing from people that they're using your product, I mean, that has been really interesting as well. And thinking about how do I expand that and bring it forward. I mean, I don't want to give myself too many jobs because, you know, you get to a point, you know, I've been thinking about Substack a lot because if you get to a point where it's like, how. How thin can you really spread yourself?

B (13:05)

Right. I'm glad that you brought up Substack because the podcasting landscape has changed so, so much in the 10 years that you've been podcasting, but it's changed exponentially in the last year since our last conversation. Right. So we now have iheartmedia doing deals with Netflix and we're going to be seeing Charlemagne the Gods podcast on Netflix. Right. So podcasts are officially television, but then you also have podcasters sort of trying to figure out what the platform is for them that's going to lead to growth or lead to community or lead to whatever sort of metrics that they're interested in elevating Substack being one of them. So there's new players on the field. TikTok didn't exist when you made Naked Beauty for the first time. Right. Do you feel pressure to show up in increasingly more stuff spaces as a podcaster?

A (14:06)

I don't feel pressure. I don't feel pressure. I was watching the Eddie Murphy documentary, being Eddie. Have you seen it?

B (14:14)

I've seen parts of it.

A (14:15)

Honestly, it's very good that he talks about sailing and he's like, I'm not going towards a specific destination. I'm like, sailing and enjoying the ride. And obviously he's earned that right. It takes a tremendous amount of work to get to the point where you've earned that. Like, let me just sit back and see where the ride takes me. And he talked about, he was like, I'm not just a comedian, I'm not just a musician. I'm not just. He's like, I'm an artist that does different mediums now. I wouldn't, you know, go as far as to say I'm an artist that works across mediums, but I do this Work because I enjoy it. So the moment I stop enjoying it is the moment that I don't do it. And so there's the reality of the industry, which is video is a non negotiable. Right. I think you and I decided two years ago we're going to focus on video. We're going to double down on video in a way that doesn't kill us. Because I think for people listening to do a new show every Monday, a new show. And I just watched. You should watch it too. You would really enjoy watching it. The Hollywood Reporter did a roundtable with all of the top podcasters. So it was Jon Favreau from Pod Save America, Mel Robbins, Ben Shapiro, Dax Shepard, the host of Crime Junkie, the top, top podcasters, all white, by the way. I was like, you guys couldn't have found one black person. But anyway, hearing them talk about their teams, I mean, Mel Robin, I think her name is Ashley Flowers, the host of Crime Junkie, they talked about their teams. They have 100 person teams, 100 people working full time on their podcast. And you know, for the true crime shows, they were like, well, there's a lot of background and research and fact checking and you know, their shows have reached such a point where, I mean, I think cnn, if you watch CNN on like prime time at night, concurrent viewership is around like 300,000, maybe 500,000 people are watching that.

B (16:04)

Wow.

A (16:05)

These podcasts have 10 million downloads per episode. So if you think about how many people work at cnn, you know, so it makes sense that they've become these huge, huge things. But for essentially you, me, you know, our video editor, our social manager, we are doing this show every. A new episode every single Monday, handling the guests booking, handling everything. I mean, and that's, that's really you. I'm including myself.

B (16:30)

It actually feels kind of insane though, because I think about it sometimes, I'm like, is there anything else that I have done as consistently in the last two and a half years of my life as uploading Naked Beauty on a Monday? Yeah, it's actually kind of crazy. And it's insane to hear those numbers because I'm literally like, what? What would those jobs even be? I do not know.

A (16:53)

Oh, I could figure out a hunt. I could figure out a hundred different things for people to do on, on Naked Beauty, easy. But it's like we do it because we want to show up. Like, I guess it just, it means a lot to me. And I think about my favorite podcasts, you know, that have been with me through so Many years of my life. It's like I depend on the read.

B (17:13)

Yeah.

A (17:14)

Uploading every week. Like I want to be in people's cues Monday morning.

B (17:19)

Yeah, absolutely. So you don't feel pressure. How do you sort of manage the fact that every year there's something new, there's AI, there's something else to sort of optimize for, to tend to, to think about as somebody who wants to market and distribute something online.

A (17:38)

Yes. I mean, as you know, because we had to move Tuesday's recording, I was having a full on panic. It wasn't a full on pan attack, it panic attack. It was like I kind of realized that I couldn't breathe. Like, what happened? It was Monday, right? It was Monday we were supposed to record. I'll tell you exactly what happened. And everyone listening to this who's ever worked can relate to this. Wednesday of last week, I told everyone that I communicated with. I'll get it to you on Monday. On Wednesday. Monday feels so far away. I think I told like six or seven different stakeholders that I would get them like major things on Monday. And then Monday came and it was like, you wake up on the west coast, you're already behind. Right. So by 9am I have like three of the six people being like, where's the thing you said you were gonna send by Monday? Oh man. Exactly. So I was, I was having like, like, I was like, oh my gosh, my chest is like tightening and I kind of feel like I can't breathe. I was like, if, if we have to record, I can push through. And you were like, no, it's absolutely okay. So yes, I like, I'm not immune to stress. I'm not immune to stress. It happens. I over commit. I think I can do more than I realistically can. So that's something that is just.

B (18:46)

I think a lot of people will appreciate hearing you say that because I do the same thing. Right. You know, having balanced corporate and sort of a separate gig at the same time, that was absolutely something I did. But even now it's very easy to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then all of a sudden you feel really, really stressed out. But I think people see it as like a sign of weakness for some reason. And the fact of the matter is that it just ebbs and flows.

A (19:18)

Yes. And I, I, I feel like I do have the capacity and I do. Right. Like I do have the capacity to do a lot, but yeah, sometimes it all kind of crumbles on top of me, I think. And you will relate to this. As someone that speaks to podcasters, people that want to grow their podcast. I mean, by the time people come to you to. To really invest in their show and bring on a producer, they're thinking about bringing their show to the next level. I have found that a lot of podcasters are frustrated with their lack of growth or this perceived idea of how many listeners they. They should have at this. You know, I've been doing it for two years. I'm only reaching a thousand people a month, or one episode's only reaching 500 people. I think social media is the same thing. I've been posting on TikTok every day. I've been posting on Instagram every day. And I'm. And my audience is only this big. You really have to interrogate, why are you doing what you're doing? And do you love what you're doing? Because the people that are doing what they love will do it independent of the audience size. Right. I had a very small audience for the first couple years of doing my podcast, but I did it because I truly love having these conversations. I love learning from people. I love getting to know people. I. I love talking about beauty. And that is enough. You know, it's nice that people listen, but I think that in everything that you do, you have to really, really interrogate your why, have a strong why, and have something that anchors you that is independent of outcomes beyond your control.

B (20:51)

That's so good. I like that a lot because I've been. I was talking to a friend recently who is writing and hoping to sell a book, and I was telling her that she needs to make writing and selling two different goals because they're two different versions of her and both are worthy accomplishments. And I would hate for her to feel like she didn't accomplish something if she didn't sell a novel that she had fully written. Right. So finding the. The goal within the goal that will, like, satisfy you internally and make you feel good, independent of the, like, external validation in particular, because you really cannot control what other people do. There's a lot of human psychology and, like, change management. And obviously I believe in marketing. I am a marketer. But at the same time, on, like, a human level with how quickly we expect results in this day and age, I think there needs to be, like, a really healthy divorce between validation and creative acts.

A (21:53)

Yes. It reminds me there was a Mahatma Gandhi quote that literally was in we in math class in high school. The quote is full effort is full victory. But I found the full quote. It's satisfaction lies in the effort not in the attainment. Full, full effort is full victory. Just so true. Putting a hundred percent of yourself towards a goal is a victory. Full effort is full victory. The satisfaction isn't in the attainment of the goal. It's in that effort that you exercise. Like, it just feels really good to work hard at something and do it.

B (22:29)

I liked what you were saying earlier about sort of, you know, being on the ride, being, you know, sailing, taking in the sights. Right? Sailing is not always peaceful and you can still kind of enjoy the moment. And I think this kind of like, through line that you're talking about, about people being really dissatisfied with how their creative work is being received, particularly in terms of like, audience growth. I think there's something to be said to how that's kind of linked to our like, hyper optimization culture in general. And this idea that, like, life is just gonna keep moving up and up and up and up and up and up and up, and things are just gonna keep getting better and better and better. And if they aren't, that's a problem. When in reality, like, there are flat ears.

A (23:23)

Yes, yes. And, and you know, there's also this quote about like, there are like planting and like harvesting years and then there are like growing years. Right. Like, you know, if you think about farming, there are like years where you have to just like sow the seeds and make the ground really fertile so that the next year things can bloom. Right. Like every year can't be like back to, back to back to back growth. I do also want to acknowledge that there is a certain comfort that you sit in once you have attained the thing. Right. So it's like we did win best beauty podcast awards.

B (23:56)

We're kind of sitting on our, on our, what is it our laurels here?

A (24:00)

Yeah, we're resting on, we're resting on our laurels.

B (24:02)

We're resting on our laurels post I heart win because that was a big deal. That was something that we both really wanted and cared about. And you had been nominated previously and had won.

A (24:13)

Yes.

B (24:14)

And I, I, I doubt that if we were to interview Brooke From 2020, she would say, oh, I don't care about the I heart. I'm just really glad to be making like. Or maybe she would, I don't know. You're pretty even keeled. Who knows?

A (24:26)

Yes, I did want to be number one on the podcast charts. It was like one of these things where, like, I saw like the vision of like naked beauty at number one and then it happened and I was like, okay, good. My Manifestation skills still work. And I wanted that award. Anyone who's nominated for award that says, like, they don't care if they get it or not is lying. Like, I wanted that award and we got it. It's behind me here. You know, I learned something really interesting about Sade. This is a little music industry tea. So Sade, first of all, Sade is the name of the band. Like, Sade has a band. The band is called Sade, which is, like, very interesting. But also there's the woman. How many Grammys has Sade won? Who knows? Apparently in this, like, country house somewhere in, like, the UK countryside, they, like, jam together. They, like, apparently she's making music all the time. Like, she is a musician. The band is, like, together, and they're just always creating and making music. But she doesn't feel this desire because. And it's probably because she's been in the limelight. She's won all the Grammys. Like, she's probably like, I love making music, but I don't need to do it this way.

B (25:32)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I also think there's something to be said for. I had this thought when we were in London as I was, like, journaling at this cute cafe.

A (25:45)

Have we even talked about, like, our London trip on?

B (25:47)

We haven't, and we're going to.

A (25:49)

Okay.

B (25:50)

But I had this thought where, you know, you. I think we get we as a people. Hopefully people resonate with this, get into this, like, tailspin of seeking validation, but then also not being willing to sort of recognize our accomplishments. And I had this, like, very crystal clear thought as I was journaling, which is, what if the validation I'm seeking is the same validation that I am with withholding from myself? I want everyone to see me as a writer. Do I think I'm a writer? Do I call myself a writer? Do I believe I'm a writer?

A (26:29)

That's deep.

B (26:31)

And so I think. I think there's some of that in there. Right. And the fact of the matter is, all of these platforms know. They know the human psychology, they know we want to achieve, and. And they make it really, really easy to do so on their platforms. And make it quick. And you get quick hits, you get the dopamine, you get all the things. But it also, I think, has trained us to, like, simultaneously want all the things we see around us without ever really being able to acknowledge, like, what we have.

A (27:04)

That's so true. That's so true.

B (27:07)

Okay, we have to talk about London.

A (27:09)

Yes.

B (27:10)

That was such a cool trip for me to go To London for the first time with naked beauty with you. It's also funny because as I was sort of preparing for this conversation, I was thinking about the fact that I think we've seen each other in Austin, Louisiana. And London this year. Maybe just Austin and London, but I've also been to LA several times at this point. And so it's funny because we always kind of fall into the same rhythm when we're together, despite not having spent a ton of time together. But the London trip was like a new high.

A (27:47)

Oh, my God. That was. Honestly, from the champagne on the upper class suite of Virgin Atlantic to. I always think about. So, so interesting when you think about visiting a city for the first time. People will reach out to me via dm. I'm going to New York City for the first time. Like, what should I do? And I'm like, oh, my God, Lord, it's New York. It's just like, I don't know, like, go to Central Park. Like, I tell everyone, like, go to Central Park. But, like, I don't even know if that's the right answer to tell people. How do you understand a city? And, like, the vibe? And so I think about the fact that we literally landed on a red eye, which is insane, what we did. And we pretty much went straight to the hair salon. We went to Charlotte Mensah's Hair Lounge on Portobello Road in Notting Hill, literally down the street from where I used to live. And it's like you walk in and you are immediately in a warm, cozy. You know, they're bringing us tea. Charlotte's bringing us a cake that she baked. And it was like, yeah, like, this is London. Like, these are the black and brown people that make up London. And you're hearing them talk and we're all gossiping and chatting, and, like, this is the perfect, perfect introduction. I can think of no better way to experience the city than going to a salon as, like, your first entry point.

B (29:01)

No, I totally, totally agree. It was like an anthropological exercise for me because I was like, okay, what are the girls getting done? What's happening in here? But then also, kind of unexpectedly, it was such a warm welcome from Charlotte. She is so, so, so, so, so sweet. And, like, every. Yeah, so funny. And, like, every bit of what she seems online, just really authentic and warm. But also finding out that she has been in that salon for 20 years. So, like, people have been crossing that threshold for 20 years. That's insane.

A (29:41)

I know. It's amazing. It's amazing. And a testament to Doing the work that you love and doing it consistently. And. And I can remember when I lived in London, she would say she would do these like shea butter hair masks. She was, she was just whipping stuff up there. There was no label, there was no anything. She was. But she would talk about, I want to have a line one day and I wanna have a product to like fast forward. It's like in all of the chica shops. I mean, I was in Grand Cayman and I saw Charlotte Mensah's hair products in, you know, the beautiful gift shop. Do you wanna talk about the dinner?

B (30:12)

Yes. The sort of cherry on top of this trip was the fabulous dinner that we had with Charlotte, Candice, Maya, Nejay, Sabrina Elba. That was such a delightful group of women and you would have never guessed that the six of us had never been at a table before.

A (30:33)

Oh my gosh. We, we were having the kiki of all kikis. Which reminds me, I need to, I still have this fabulous video of all of us at dinner that I have to upload.

B (30:41)

Yes.

A (30:42)

It, it felt so good. It felt so warm. I love the guests of Naked Beauty. When I was, you know, the very early years of doing my podcast, for the first two years, I hosted a brunch at my apartment in Chelsea where I invited every single person that I interviewed that year to come to my house in September for like a brunch. I think by the end it started being at the public hotel, but for the first two years it was just at my house. And it was amazing because it would be people that had never met before, but obviously, like, I loved them individually, some of them knew each other. And it was like, this is my idea of heaven. These women all together at a table. And it was just that reminder that like, like minded people find each other. All of these incredible black women entrepreneurs with incredible taste. I mean, how cool is Maya? I was like, Maya, you couldn't, you couldn't be cooler.

B (31:27)

She's amazing. And she gifted me my favorite of her scents, which is called Cyrus, which like I've been wearing every day since. And she's just so wonderful and perfect. Like, she's just so smart. She's so good at what. That's the thing. It's like, it's a craft level, right? Every single one of those women is so good at what they do on a craft level. Candice can ootd like nobody has ever ootd before.

A (31:56)

And Candice is probably one of the most entertaining, magnetic characters. She's a superstar, you know, it's like, she walks in and it's like, full wattage.

B (32:05)

Yeah.

A (32:06)

Sabrina Elba may be the chicest woman to ever step foot on planet Earth. Like, there is no one shaker. There is no one more elegant.

B (32:13)

I came home and I told Sean, I said, sabrina Elba is a class act, which I feel like is a phrase nobody really uses. But, like, when you think about the, like, old school sort of charm and class and generosity and, like, just like, she's smart, she's cool, she's sophisticated, all the things she is like, truly rarefied air being around her. Very, very, very cool to meet her in person also. The other thing I'll say is, like, we exchange so many emails back and forth with these people, but it's a totally different thing to get to be in the flesh together, toasting over, like, a beautiful table in London, just everyone looking fabulous. You talked earlier about how significant and, like, meaningful it is to hear about people, you using your products or see them using your products. But I'm curious, too, what it was like for you to be at that table and see the sort of, like, legacy almost of Naked Beauty in the connections that you made.

A (33:19)

One thing that always just kind of floors me is when people talk about the difference they've seen in their business from being on the show. So Maya's saying we had so many more customers from the US on our site. Sabrina telling me, like, you know, when I did beautycon, I think she was at Essence Fest. She was like, the amount of people that came up to me and said, okay, I heard you on Brooks Naked Beauty Podcast. It's like you just kind of realize that you have a role in the industry and you have this platform to help to support founders that are doing very hard work. It's very, very hard to have a brand we get. How many pitches would you say we get a day from founders that want to be on the show?

B (33:58)

Yeah.

A (33:58)

So many.

B (33:59)

At least 20 a day. Like, it's actually crazy.

A (34:02)

Mavi's come in. Mavi, come.

B (34:03)

Hi, Mavi.

A (34:07)

Can I ask you one question on the microphone? What's the name of mommy's podcast?

B (34:11)

Naked Beauty.

A (34:13)

Yes. What does it mean to be a host of Naked Beauty Podcast?

B (34:18)

You record something?

A (34:20)

I record something. Yes. Okay, you go finish your letters. I'm so proud of you. Mommy's going to finish recording and come see everything. Love you.

B (34:30)

It's so crazy to hear him talking in full sentences. I know, I know.

A (34:36)

I, I, I will say something. Working moms always struggle with guilt. It's just like, it's an inevitable. And I used to kind of be like, why do I feel so guilty? And then I just learned that, like, there's not even the term working mom. I don't even, like. Like, literally, we all have to manage life and raising children. But then I remember that my mom always told me what she was doing. I always knew what her work was. So that's why I very, like, I. I go out of my way to always explain to Mavi, like, okay, I'm doing this for Naked Beauty. I'm doing this for Refinery 29, because I want him to understand that I'm building something that I love, the work that I do, that I'm not just away from him. Because, you know, I always. I see people do these things online where they're like, oh, we have to make money. I'm like, that doesn't mean anything to a kid. They're like, a kid's gonna be like, I don't care about money. Like, I just want my parents, you know, like that.

B (35:26)

Right?

A (35:26)

Yeah. I make it about more than that. The money is a very real part of it. But it's like, I'm building something. I'm doing work that inspires me. I'm doing work that excites me. So I love that he knows. He knows what my work is.

B (35:38)

Right. And as he grows, like, his knowledge of what you do and who you are will continue. Do you remember, like, figuring out who Jerry Devard was?

A (35:49)

Yes, because we would go places, especially, like, industry things, and so many people would just come up to her.

B (35:57)

She's so, so iconic. And I have fully integrated some Jerry Devartisms into our household. Do good, fear not. She has all the quips.

A (36:06)

She has all the like, well, I'm.

B (36:08)

About to get her.

A (36:09)

She. She. She just landed in LA maybe 15 minutes ago. I'm definitely going to get her on. On Mike this trip.

B (36:16)

Yes.

A (36:16)

But, yeah, do good, fear not that I say that to my. When I'm, like, spinning out over, like, sometimes. Do you ever get ghosted by someone that you've done nothing to? Has that ever happened to you? Yeah, like, someone just stops responding and you're like, yeah, wait, like, I've literally never done what happened.

B (36:32)

Yeah.

A (36:33)

And then I always just remember, like, do good, fear not. Like, I haven't done anything, so, like, I shouldn't. Whatever is going on with that person is, like, that person thing. I always think, do good, fear not. Always.

B (36:45)

I feel like it also applies to the situation we were talking about earlier. Say you over commit You've said a million yeses and it gets to that day. And there are some no's that you have to say. Like, say those no's with truth and with honesty. Like when you wake up that morning and you're super anxious and you're like, oh, shoot, I'm not going to be able to get all this stuff to these people at your corporate job, especially because your team is depending on you and potentially waiting on you. They would rather know it's going to be late at 9am than that you have finished it at 3pm Absolutely. I promise. Do good. Fear not. I want to talk about some of the guests that we've had on Naked Beauty this year because it's been such a wide and sort of varied bunch. To your point about, you know, feeling mom guilt ever since Erica Chidi's episode about postpartum, which I have sent to every single person that I know who is pregnant or potentially caring for a pregnant person, ever since that episode, I feel like my eyes have been opened to how much biology is out of our hands. And so you talk about mom guilt and I'm almost like, maybe that's just wiring to protect your kids, to make sure you come home.

A (37:57)

That's interesting. Yes. I mean, so many things just go back to basic evolution, so I wouldn't be surprised, you know.

B (38:03)

But then also, we've had a lot of guests that have spoken really vulnerably about body image issues, like Jamie. Psych. We've had folks talk about the patriarchy and social issues and how that affects beauty. And it's really interesting because it feels like we have really come to this place as a podcast where we really can't divorce a beauty conversation from a conversation about the environment or a conversation about surgery or a conversation about politics to some degree. I think everyone saw the Vanity Fair article. How has your perspective on beauty and how you interact and engage with beauty shifted as you've had these, like, new conversations about the patriarchy and the ways that it works in the beauty world.

A (38:55)

Oh my gosh, yes. I mean, I think about Ana Malaika Tubbs, I think about, obviously, Jameela Jamil, even, you know, Weezy, talking about how her attitudes towards sex and being in poly relationships have given her kind of new ways of thinking about her body. I love to expose myself to radical thinkers to progress my own thinking. Before this year, I don't know if I've been as aware as I have been about how patriarchy literally seeps into every little thing that we do. I was Thinking about how. I don't know. Is it sixth grade? I don't know. I'm kind of like a weird, hairless person. But I can remember when I got, like, hair on my legs. And even from, like, a very young age, as soon as you start getting hair, it's like, here's like, a razor and a shape. It's like, shave that away. And it's like, you know, back to Jamila's point about how to a certain degree, pedophilia is normalized in our society. It's like, as soon as you start showing signs of looking older, they're like, nope, shave it off. Take it away. Right. So I think I've become more aware than ever how much the patriarchy and white supremacy influences everything we think about beauty. Everything.

B (40:13)

Absolutely. Has having Jade and sort of watching her get older sort of made you want to pass on any sort of specific lessons or thoughts or philosophies around beauty to her?

A (40:28)

You know, I think she's so young still. I think she's so young still. But she's. She's got her skincare routine. She's got her, you know, she's got her earrings.

B (40:38)

She's fly.

A (40:39)

I know. Well, listen, one of the earrings fell out, and now she's, like, at that point where she's, like, too old to get them repaired. So my pediatrician is like, when she can ask for earrings and, like, consent, then, like, we can redo them. But there's like a. Yeah, you're supposed to do it. You're supposed to basically do it before a year. Right. And then there's, like, from like, 1 to 3, where they just, like, can rip them out and blah, blah, blah. Right there also is that, you know, my ears were pierced at, like, 2.

B (41:04)

Months old, I was gonna say. So that's a beauty decision that you've kind of made for her.

A (41:09)

Well, yes, and now. And now it's been. Yes, and now it's been reversed. So maybe. Maybe that was a sign from God that I was not supposed make this decision for her and she should have given me her consent. And it's a hot topic in the mom world. Circumcisions and ear piercing are, like, two things that people will, like, argue about back and forth. The mom world is fascinating.

B (41:31)

A whole different.

A (41:32)

Whole different part of the event for when you. For when you join us. It's a whole.

B (41:36)

I'm going to have to just block the accounts. There's so much out there. But the ear piercing one is a conversation that I've Heard about. And I've had my ears pierced my whole life, and I've gotten more piercings as an adult. I really liked having my ears pierced. Like, I liked wearing earrings, but I also am African and so, like, culturally, it's like we're not leaving the house without some jewelry on. So if I'm seeing everyone around me with jewelry on, of course I'm gonna feel weird if my ear. Like, you know, how much of that is just sort of conditioned versus how much I.

A (42:08)

Yes. No. And as. As a black American woman, it is also part. I feel like most like when you see cute little black baby girls, they've got their ears pierced, right. In Turkey, you better believe every single infant has their ear pierced. You know, like, of course, it is absolutely like my culture as well. But yeah, it. One of the earrings fell out and we have not re pierced.

B (42:28)

It's okay. I feel like a lot of immigrant kids get the gold bracelet early.

A (42:33)

I actually. It's so funny you say that. Umut just told me that her. Her Turkish grandparents have a bracelet coming for.

B (42:40)

Perfect. There we go. Yeah, she'll be dripped out. People will know. People will know.

A (42:45)

People will know. Yes.

B (42:46)

I love it. Well, I also want to hear more about, like, your personal relationship to beauty this year. I feel like the hair architect sort of label has. Has really been cemented to some degree this year.

A (43:03)

Yes.

B (43:04)

What are you having for fun with in terms of your self presentation right now?

A (43:09)

Yes. Okay, so hair innovator. Hair architect. It's funny because I saw someone make someone. Someone called me that on TikTok. And then I was like, okay, I'll just. I'll just own it. I'll just say I'm the hair architect. So my first braids in the leave out and then sewing in the back. I like looked back that video for the very first time I did in 2023. So like a while back and now it's like so popular. Like, all these people do it. And I'm not saying like, oh, I made it popular, but it's, you know, it's something that I did a while ago. This was the year that I discovered half wigs. Once you discover a half wig, you will never get a sew in again because it's. It's just like one unit. You just have to sew on one thing and then you take it off and it's perfect and then you put it back on. So it was like, oh, my gosh, I'm getting into the. The half wig life. I'm so excited to be in the half wig life. And now this most recent style. Oh, my God. I just, I just had this. And it goes back to an episode that we did at the top of the year where we interviewed Dochi's glam team and we got to speak to her incredible makeup artist, Chelsea Uchena. And we spoke to her incredible hairstylist, Malcolm Marquez, and he talked about ordering this braided wig from Nigeria that she wore for Paris fashion. Because I'm like, she had braids down to her ankles one day and then like a mullet the next. Like how? And he was like, you know, we got this wig and I just kept that in the back of my mind. And I was like, okay, winter is going to be the time where I try. So I basically ordered a wig, I made it a half wig, and then I did braids in like the leave out area so that it didn't look too wiggy, if that makes sense. And so I cut, you know, to get this many micro braids.

B (44:47)

Yeah.

A (44:51)

It would be three days. That's. I mean, Janae gave me like a very conservative estimate. It would be three days. So I mean, even braiding the leave out was like a full day because I mean, these braids are so.

B (45:02)

They're so small.

A (45:04)

They're so small.

B (45:05)

But it looks so good. And I cannot wait for you to do the, the breakdown. Give us, give us the blueprints, Ms. Architect.

A (45:14)

I'm going, I'm going to.

B (45:15)

And I'm sure more people will be hitting up our.

A (45:19)

Our favorite neat crowns on Instagram.

B (45:22)

Neat crowns on Instagram, Yes. Our favorite Legos wig supplier. So that kind of brings us to my final couple questions. Obviously, we've had a year full of beauty trials. It sounds like, what would you say is your favorite sort of 2026 beauty discovery? Is it the half wig?

A (45:47)

The half wig, yes. I've finally become a mask person. Like the scary looking ones that you put on at night. Oh, the red light ones, yes. So I got the cryo mask from Shark Beauty. It was sent to me. It has this under eye cooling that basically like freeze. It like makes. It's like there are these pads that are like freezing in your under eye area and it like feels so good. I haven't realized how much I love cold therapy on my face. But then it does like the red light now the red light. I just think I'm like very, I'm a very impatient person. So it's like. Yeah, if you use it every single day after like eight months, you notice the Difference. Like, I, I don't know, it's not. I think that having those cooling pads in the under eye area, that instant gratification really does a lot for me. So I like the cryo mask from Shark Beauty because it does both. What has been your favorite?

B (46:32)

Okay, so I've been using the ordinary's glycolic acid on my face feet.

A (46:39)

Oh, okay. But also, do you also use it on your armpits? Because I always hear the girls saying that becomes their new deodorant.

B (46:45)

You know, the armpits. I didn't try because I'm team aluminum. It's only just now gotten cool enough that I could do deodorant experiments. But I find that like, I hate I'm not gonna go to bed with socks on. Which is like the advice that people give for how to get really smooth, soft feet. And also I love when you get a pedicure and you just feel like a newborn baby.

A (47:11)

Yes.

B (47:12)

And I find that this is the only thing that sort of extends that feeling. And my feet stay really, really soft. But also I don't have to like put a thick cream on and then put socks on and walk around my. Like, I just, that's not me. My feet get hot and it just always feels weird sensory wise. So, yeah, I saw a woman on TikTok talk about this and she was doing her like morning routine. She's like, yeah, I'm gonna put a little glycolic acid on my feet. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? And I've been trying it for like six months and can confirm it works.

A (47:45)

Wow. Wow. Now glycolic acid, there's like a tackiness to like, I don't love the way it feels on my hands. How do you apply it to the foot?

B (47:53)

So I am just using my hands because I don't mind the feeling. But I think you can just do a, do like a cotton paddle, like a cotton round or something.

A (48:02)

Yeah, I'm sold. I'm going to try.

B (48:04)

And then looking ahead to 2026, I would love to hear what beauty trend predictions you have. Last year we talked about body care. We also talked about surgery and plastic surgery and how like there would be a sort of stratification of natural versus plastic surgery. You said that people were going to be more accepting of plastic surgery, which I think is true. I think Kris Kardashian post facelift Mac campaign like seals the deal that that is true.

A (48:39)

Yes. I just, I do want to say that both of my predictions, one was surgery is going to become more and more normalized. And two is that white women were going to discover body care have come true, like, tenfold. Like, the amount of white women I see on TikTok being like, this is what I put on after the shower. And they're literally holding a tube of lotion is amazing to me. They now sell, like essences that you can put on. They're like this locks in moisture. And I'm like, wow. I actually love to see this discovery of moisturizer for your body. And they're like the skincare you do on your face, you can do it on your body too.

B (49:12)

On your body too. Which is also so funny because I think you and I have a shared experience of like being in middle school, you're at a sleepover, or you're like, I did show choir in high school. So that was like my thing where I have this, like bottle of Vaseline lotion in my bag and everyone's looking at me like I'm crazy because I've packed lotion. And now the girls are on cyclo. The girls are on naturium. The girls are on. Yeah, all of those.

A (49:41)

Yes. Surgery is an interesting one. I think we will continue to see more surgery, and I think we'll see more surgery than just like cosmetic tweaks. I think more people are going to go in, we're going to see more young people, you know, doing kind of permanent things. Whether that's like a brow lift or a mid face lift. I think we're going to see more of that. I will say, and I think I said this, you know, last year, that I do really aim to be at a place of non judgment. It's really interesting to talk to someone like Jamila, who is so vehemently anti plastic surgery. I know that you are also very anti.

B (50:18)

I'm pretty anti for myself, so. So here's the thing, is the first thing I'll say is I'm pretty anti elective surgery in general. Like, I'm not really just gonna get under anesthesia for anything. But then also I think what happens when we introduce these tools and we've sort of seen this with like men being able to go to Turkey to get their hairline filled. What happens is that it then subtly becomes not okay to be normal. And so you'll hear this language where, like, women will be like, oh, well, there's no excuse to be balding when Turkey exists. And you're kind of like, what do.

A (50:58)

People say that that makes me.

B (50:59)

Yes, yes. Right. And so you, you fill in the blank with any of these tools. There's no excuse to be hairy when waxing exists. There's no excuse to be fat when ozempic exists. There's no excuse. So ultimately we're normalizing a very slim normative version of what beauty looks like always. And I would say on the flip side, that has made resistance very easy. If I just sit down and eat three meals a day, I am doing so much for the movement.

A (51:35)

Yes.

B (51:37)

So yeah, and I'll be candid, right? Like, I'm pretty curvy. So the BBL is not for me. I am not someone that would benefit from that procedure.

A (51:45)

You don't need it.

B (51:46)

I have like the high cheekbones, my, I have very filled in cheeks already. So the filler wouldn't go anywhere. Right. Like none of the things that people are kind of going for are things that would be interesting to me or things that I feel I need. But I think first and foremost it's that like normative thing for me. So if I do this thing, I am at least a little bit saying, this is how you should be living.

A (52:15)

That makes total sense to me. There are two things that come to mind for me. One is like when you've had, when you've had features for your whole life, there's a kind of like an acceptance that comes. But being a mom where things shift and change and like, you know, again, a lot of this is just like the targeting. So you're not seeing all the mommy makeover as I am because like, you know, meta knows what, how many months postpartum you are. But it's like now I'm at the point in my journey where I'm getting all of the, like, I got my loose skin like taken off and I feel like a different person. And it's like some of these women like you, they can physically hold their loose skin like in their hand, right. They've done all of this work to lose weight and they're like, yeah, I wanted to take like take off my loose skin. And I'm like, you know what? I get that I spent a long time yesterday with this facial jaw surgeon, Maxio facial. It's some sort of a dentist, right? Because I have this bone on the side of my jaw that happens to also be on top of a nerve. And so, you know, he has to refer me to this expert at ucla and they're like, do we go through the jaw? Do we go through the outside of the jaw? Now it does not caused me physical pain, but I never had this bump on my jawline before, and now I have it, and I don't want it there. Every time I do my skincare, I feel it. And then when I smile, I, like, see it in pictures. So I've, like, noticed that I, like, smile less. Like, I'm smiling less because I don't want this, like, bone that's decided to grow on the side of my jaw. So it's like, is it vain that I, like, want this bone removed that wasn't there before? Like, I guess so. It's not causing me pain, but it's like, I want it gone. I want it gone. Yeah.

B (53:46)

And I think that is, that is really understandable. And to your point about the mommy makeover of it all, like, I have not had kids. I haven't. My, my body has changed in the sense that I have gained weight, but I have not, like, rapidly experienced the kind of radical shift that you do through motherhood, which comes with its own, like, hormonal and emotional stuff too. Right. Which I can imagine affects all of that. But to that end, right, like, I've had Invisalign. I would say that's probably the biggest quote, unquote cosmetic procedure that I've had. And, like, that is a very real thing of, like, I always liked my smile, but my, I had an overbite. And so, like, I can give all the reasons of, like, oh, well, your teeth continue to shift and it would have been unhealthy and this, that and the other. But no, like, I, I wanted to fix my teeth and I did, and we love that. So I think, yeah, like, I don't, I don't have a lot of, like, external judgment. I have a lot of curiosity about how people are doing after plastic surgery. That's something I'm actually very curious about for the show. Like, I'd be very interested to hear from someone who's five years out, six years out, eight, ten years out from plastic surgery. Because I think part of what's happening now is that getting surgery and posting about your surgery is something that does well online. And so we hear a lot of stories from people who are considering it, doing it, or have just done it. And maybe we get like the six month out, the nine month out, but we don't get the eight years out, the 10 years out. Right. And I'm really curious about that experience. I also think for myself, I intend to live a very long life, and I cannot imagine spending the next, I don't know, 60 or so years seeing my body as something that's like editable. Because I think if I once I see something as editable, I see all its faults. I'm going to write like I am. I. I could paint every wall in my house, just change out the carpets, get a new bed, do everything right now. Right. So.

A (56:05)

And by the way, when I was at, you know, there to talk about my jaw yesterday, we did all these scans and like CT scans and the doctor looks at me very matter of fact, very non emotional. He was like, well, I mean, he's like, your face is asymmetrical in general. I mean, the, the left side of your jaw is much bigger than the right side of. Just look at where your chin is. It's not centered. And I was like, I looked in the mirror and I was like, oh my. It's like you're, you're, you're right. I have never noticed this about myself.

B (56:31)

I don't know why you're worried about this bone spur. You should be more concerned.

A (56:37)

Well, he was just like, I mean, in general, like, this side of your jaw is like so much. And then he was like, you're. And I was like, yeah. So I would imagine that once you get into that, like, you know, there are probably a million things wrong with my face if I like was to really, really hyper focus on it and a million things wrong with my body if I were to hyper focus on it. And then it's like, yeah, your. Should your body be like your aesthetic project. But also like, love talking to Vanessa Lee, who's been on the podcast.

B (57:02)

Absolutely.

A (57:03)

Sculpture injected into the back of her. Like her. Because it's her life's work.

B (57:08)

Right.

A (57:09)

She experiments on herself. Like she has made like her body and her face kind of like this project. But I do want to say my like, fun makeup trend prediction because this is like a very hot take. And like, I'm so excited to circle back to this because if it is true, then I really am like a beauty oracle. Okay. My thought is because everyone is so like lip combo, lip combo, lip combo. We all are doing like the dark, dark lip liner with like the lighter color in between. My prediction is that we are going to actually go back to the like bright pink like the, the Nicki Minaj, like the early Mac days of just like the single color lip with no like gradient ombre, dark liner. Now that is a very hot take.

B (57:56)

I like it.

A (57:57)

We're gonna put this.

B (57:59)

Yeah, we're gonna put a pin in this and check in on it because like, we always go from. We always swing Right. Like, we always go back and forth. And I agree. I will say I did not foresee white women being on the lip liner game in the way that they are in 2025. Like, I simply could have never seen seen it coming. But I'm happy for them. I feel like my trend prediction is kind of in the same, same ish vein in terms of, like, throwback makeup trends. So I feel like I have been increasingly seeing matte like, or matte under a different name. So the Danessa Myricks sort of blurring setting spray that everyone's been going crazy over. There's also a Patrick star, one that was supposed to make your face look like it had been powdered. That is matte. It is matte makeup coming back. It's matte older, more sophisticated, been in the lab, got a couple upgrades, sexy sister coming back. And I think we are going to finally, finally be regressing from the doingess, the, you know, glass skin of it all and back to something a little bit more glam.

A (59:16)

I hate that. Yeah, I, I, I just hate, I hate a full matte. Like, it's just never. It's only because I have dry skin. I find that women that have, like, oily skin, like, really prioritize mat ness. Like, there's always like, oh, how do I. And it's like, because my skin is so dry, I am always trying to get that, like, dewy, moisture, plump look. My skin's naturally matte. Like, I want the shine. I don't, I don't, I just don't love a matte. It just feels very one dimensional.

B (59:44)

I do also think that part of what hap. What has happened with, like, the Internet increasingly being a presence in our lives is there will be things that are happening on the Internet and there's what women are doing in real life, and then there's what's happening in media. So there's almost like maybe three different sets of places where the makeup is showing up. And I feel like our creator friends are going to be the ones leading the matte revolution.

A (60:13)

Yes. Also, I think a very interesting question for our audience, Like, I don't know, right back on Spotify or dms, I'm always curious if people want to hear more from creators. Like, I loved having Achang on the pod this year. We didn't talk to too many creators. Cammie is a creator. Cammie Crawford, but kind of, I'm always curious, like, do people want to hear from creators?

B (60:35)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think in that similar vein, I would love for all of our listeners to know that we see the Spotify comments and we're actively checking in on them. So please, please keep leaving them and let us know who else you want to hear from. We've gotten a couple great emails this year too, from listeners kind of telling us episodes, episodes that they've liked. Send more of those. We love your input. The Naked Beauty audience is so smart and we want to tap into the hive mind. So that brings us to our final question. When do you feel most beautiful right now? I can answer first because I think it's just gonna go back to all my, all my like, artistic hobbies. I feel like this year working full time for myself, not being stuck in the, like corporate 9 to 5, really, 8 to 6, 8 to 7, if you're getting really serious. Not being stuck in that sort of schedule has been a very interesting exercise for me because I have very slowly been like detoxing from corporate. I feel like. And very slowly feeling like, oh yeah, I can grab coffee at 11 with a friend or I can take this 30 minutes to watercolor, or I can, you know, pour into something that's not corporate or Naked Beauty or even my company. There's room now that corporate doesn't exist. And so I feel like I have filled that room with a lot of things that bring me joy and are like generative for me and they don't ever have to go anywhere. I put all my little watercolors on my fridge and every morning I see them and I'm like, that's so fun. I made that.

A (62:24)

I love that. I love that. I think I feel most beautiful when I am in community and conversation with other people. I was going to say other women. But I also have great male friends in my life as well, and non binary friends. And you know, there's something. And that's probably why to. To go back to the very beginning of this conversation, there's like a reason why I feel I have been called to do this work. Why I feel so passionate but passionate about doing this work is because I do truly love talking to other people. You know, it's like that, that, that table we were at in London, just being surrounded by these women, hearing them talk, hearing them tell their stories. I mean, it was truly like, we were truly. People say like, oh, we laughed, we cried. Like, we literally laughed and cried.

B (63:15)

No, genuinely.

A (63:16)

No, genuinely, genuinely laughed and cried and clapped. And you know, it's. There's something to me that's so beautiful about like looking around and realizing that someone feels safe Enough with you to share their story. Just laughing with other people, singing, smiling as you talk to other people. Like, I just love that. I love that. And. And I'm not, like, thinking about myself when that's happening, but it does feel really, like, beautiful and like life affirming. You're like, oh, this is. This is what life is about. This is what it's about. Just like being in community with other people.

B (63:50)

Yeah. And I love what you said there, that you're not thinking about yourself, but it is affirming. I feel like I've been continuously trying to remind myself that I'm a human being, not a human doing, because I am a workaholic. And I have a hard time being able to just sort of sit. But I love those moments when the spotlight is off of you almost internally and you're able to, like, see what you bring and what you can facilitate. But you're not necessarily the star of the show.

A (64:24)

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

B (64:26)

I love it. Another year of naked beauty. This time we won't be taking a big break after this episode. Episode. We'll be right back at the top of the year.

A (64:34)

Listen. With a new interview with a new interview with dear friend of the show, Sir John, back on mic. And by the way I looked, we didn't take a huge break in 2025 either. Our first episode was February 3rd, so we took off four weeks.

B (64:49)

Oh, wow.

A (64:51)

Yeah, I know.

B (64:52)

We're like, this break, I feel like that is a testament to us both saying we are workaholics because.

A (65:02)

And are.

B (65:02)

And own it and. And own it. Honestly, I think as long as the work is yielding, like, this much joy, like you said, we'll keep doing it. Amazing.

A (65:12)

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank. Thank you. This was such a great interview.

B (65:16)

Thank you. Happy holidays. Hope you enjoy your very little break.

A (65:22)

Yes, you too.

B (65:25)

Everything. Everything is everything.

A (65:50)

Who struggles and they use this one for this.

B (65:55)

Who won't accept decide.