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- [00:04]
Jamila
Lucy, Lou, my girl Drew.
- [00:08]
Lucy
Jamila. Welcome to Naked Beauty. I have been a fan for such a long time, like, from the moment I first saw you.
- [00:16]
Jamila
Thank you very much. That's very flattering.
- [00:18]
Lucy
And heard you the. You did a podcast episode with Neil Brennan when he changed his podcast to Blocks. That was just, like, so vulnerable, so deep. And I was like, I need more. I need to listen to every single podcast episode and just get your point of view on everything. You're just brilliant.
- [00:35]
Jamila
That's very kind. Thank you very much. I had a good time on that podcast. It was probably. It's probably quite dangerous to do podcasts with people you're very close to because you. You. You get that kind of vulnerability hangover afterwards. But I'm glad I said what I said.
- [00:49]
Lucy
Yes. No, it was great. It was great. And then I saw you was maybe last summer at this, like, in this small festival in Italy, in this, like, small town. Like, Rick Rubin was there and Jack Dorsey was there, and your Mann was performing, and we were, like, in the backstage area, and I was like, should I go up to her and, like, say hi and tell her I love her and I'm obsessed with her? But I was like, let me just let her be. She's making a plate of food and looks quite chill.
- [01:13]
Jamila
I was about to ask if I was sewn to the buffet table.
- [01:17]
Lucy
You were, but we all were. The food is very good. That was an interesting little festival. I know.
- [01:22]
Jamila
Yeah. We were staying with Rick at the time in his castle, or whatever you would call it, and he put on that festival. I think it was the first of its kind. And it was such a cool vibe and such a smart way to ingratiate yourself into a new town is by bringing something rather than just taking away.
- [01:41]
Lucy
Yes. All right, let's get into it. You have grown up in so many different places. South London, Spain, Pakistan. And when you're going to different cities with different codes of beauty, I'm wondering if you always felt beautiful growing up.
- [01:56]
Jamila
No, I've never felt beautiful according to the standards. I know now I am an acceptable form of what is the current beauty standard. But this same face was rejected by magazines 15 years ago, so it's hard to ever reconcile with it. I just no longer associate the external with what I consider beautiful, because you will never, ever meet the standard. And when you do, that's when you know it's just about to change.
- [02:26]
Lucy
That is so true. And it is constantly changing, which is so interesting to me, even to talk about certain body types as being Trends. There was a story I was looking at around how BBLs are now like an auntie signifier. They were saying basically that that body type is, you know, showing that you kind of have, like, a dated approach to your body, but some people are naturally shaped like that one.
- [02:50]
Jamila
Yeah, it's almost like an iPhone update of Patriarchy. It's like, oh, are you still on patriarchy 14.0? We're on patriarchy 17.0, and our ribs are showing again. That's infuriating.
- [03:03]
Lucy
And you can never catch up. You can never catch up. Who were your beauty icons growing up? Who did you look to as beautiful?
- [03:11]
Jamila
I mean, my first sort of crush of someone I found literally physically attractive was Whoopi Goldberg. And so I was in love with Whoopi Goldberg, and I found her very beautiful. And then also Sophia Loren was a classic in my household. That's who the women in my family loved. They loved, you know, I mean, she's not that curvy, but more curvaceous, like Italian actresses and so people like that. There was a cook in England called Nigella Lawson. Again, curvy, gorgeous, goddess of the kitchen. So those were the people that I found beautiful. I found voluptuousness my personal attraction my whole life. And yet I didn't think I was allowed to be voluptuous for a lot of my youth, which is so sad given how much I loved it on other women. I hated it on myself. And it's so strange.
- [04:08]
Lucy
Where do you think you got the message that you weren't allowed to access that voluptuousness?
- [04:13]
Jamila
From every inch of society. And also my own culture, my own family, you know, I think in South Asian families, a lot of them, it's difficult because in, you know, within South Asia, if you're very skinny, some people see that as you looking poor or quote, unquote, lower class, because it means you don't have decadence and luxury and gluttony. And yet there is a section of the global south that aspire to whiteness. And thinness is inherently tied to whiteness because it was set as a white beauty standard. I don't need to tell you this in order to differentiate white women from brown and black women, because we have more of a predisposition towards curves. And they thought of us as animals, and they thought of hairiness as being more animal. Skinniness, pallor, all became the white beauty standard that has been inflicted upon white women, but also all of the rest of us for hundreds of years.
- [05:15]
Lucy
Yes. And you've been open about your battling anorexia as a teen. What pulled you into it and how have you been able to recover over time? Let me start with what pulled you into it before we get to recovery, because that's a long and complicated process.
- [05:34]
Jamila
I was weighed in front of my school. We were all weighed as part of a mathsmatics class. Yeah, we were. They were teaching us. Yeah, it was my English teacher. I know, I know, I know. It was my English teacher. She was substituting for my maths teacher, and she was trying to figure out the easiest way to teach us how to collect data for a pie chart. You know, we were only 11, so we were just learning about, you know, graphs and all of that. And so she weighed all of us. And this is a grown fucking woman in the 90s. Like, if anyone should have known how toxic that was, it should have been her. But she weighed all of us to kind of teach us how to gather the average weight of the class. And we're all monitoring each other's number. And mine was the heaviest. I was also the tallest. And I was immediately made fun of for being the heaviest in the class. And I went home and devastated and confused because I didn't know that was a metric of value or ridicule. And my family were horrified to learn that I was the heaviest in the class whilst they knew I was also the tallest in the class. And it shouldn't fucking matter. And I'm 11 and what the fuck? And my family put me on a diet immediately. A very restrictive calorific. I don't know what the word is, but a very restrictive diet immediately. And when I started to lose weight, I was congratulated by my family. I was weighed every day and congratulated. And the bullying stopped. And so long before I was 12, I understood that weight loss is good, weight gain is bad. And it's so sad because up until then, I loved my body so much because I just thought it was a vehicle of fun, you know, like when I was bloated, I would push my tummy out and show everyone how full my belly was of food. You know, I loved. I didn't notice my thighs or anyone else's thighs or upper arms or double chins. But it was a huge focus of every aspect of society because we were. We were hurtling towards the size zero trend that we're now hurtling back towards somehow, which is just fucking insane.
- [07:39]
Lucy
I'm so sorry that you went through that. I mean, there's so many better ways to collect data that don't involve body sizes. And I thought you were going to say that your parents were so upset that this teacher did this, but they were upset about the fact that you were the heaviest and at such a young age to even be aware of your weight. So certainly very traumatic. You, as a young person become a TV presenter and you're suddenly very visible and also getting probably a lot of feedback and data about the way that you look on screen. Well, first, what drew you to being a TV presenter?
- [08:15]
Boost Mobile Advertiser
Nothing.
- [08:16]
Jamila
I was street scouted in a pub. I was an English teacher. And so someone said to me that they thought I was funny and they thought I should apply for this nationwide call to be on Channel 4, which is a very, very big channel in the United Kingdom. And I was like, nah, I'm not interested in being seen. You know, I tried my hand at modeling when I was a teenager and I never got a job, which is why I've always found it confusing to talk about because I don't know if I could call myself a model if you never actually modeled. But I was signed to an agency and so I just thought it didn't make me feel good to be stared at and judged over my appearance. But then he said it was a thousand pounds a day and all of my concerns and integrity flew out of the window really fast. And I took the email address and I sent an email and a cover photo, which was a very comical, ridiculous photo of me dressed up as a. A big old Santa. Then they asked for a video and then they asked me to come in and I got the job a matter of weeks later. So television found me. I did not find tv and I. I can't think of a more dangerous industry for someone who'd had anorexia for 11 years by that point to be in. And I'm amazed I'm still alive, frankly.
- [09:34]
Lucy
Because your diet was so restrictive, because you were so deep in the disease.
- [09:40]
Jamila
Because I was so congratulated for my thinness. And every time I got thinner, everyone congratulated me on my quote, unquote, discipline, which is just code for female obedience. You know, well done. You know, mirror, mirror on the wall, you're the most obedient of them all. And. And then when I would gain weight, I would be punished by the tabloids and pictures of my thighs would be all over the newspapers, side by side with me at my thinnest, you know, and I would be shamed and called fat and a whale and all these different words. So it was constant confirmation of every fear and belief I had as a teenager that society would reject me if I gained weight and would love me if I was skinny. And it wasn't until I was 26 that I started to fight back. And then I never stopped fighting back.
- [10:29]
Lucy
Yes. What role do you think women have also played in perpetuating the patriarchy and these standards? I've had experience working on the magazine side at Vogue, and I've seen it firsthand. But it's not always men, Right, that you're hearing. Oftentimes, it's women that you're getting these messages from.
- [10:49]
Jamila
Yeah. I think the messaging is created by patriarchy, but I think women uphold patriarchy, especially white women. But women of all races can. And so I think it was massively women who were indoctrinated and didn't realize they were just recycling that indoctrination of toxicity and pouring it out onto other people. You know, it normalized their own obsession with their appearance to make everyone else obsessed. And what I've always found really tricky, and this is a really rude thing to say, and I'm so sorry, but I've always found the editors of magazines, like, quite, like, unattractive according to the beauty standards. And the same for designers and photographers. So it's really strange to me that these are the arbiters of the beauty standard when none of them come close. That's a true. They're at the buffet table telling us that we should be careful and mind our. Mind our weight while they pay no attention to theirs. And I've always felt as though I think you should have to meet the beauty standard before you prescribe it to someone else. It's normally been quite unattractive older men who've been prescribing the beauty standard to the rest of us. It's been quite shocking, and I would have no judgment over their look. It's just according to a beauty standard that they set and upheld.
- [12:04]
Lucy
That's so true. That's so true. And I think in fashion particularly, they try to absolve themselves from it by saying, well, we just want the model to be a hanger. We don't want any interruptions. We don't want any curves. We just want the focus on the design. But that feels like a very cheap way of rinsing your hands of any responsibility to uphold diverse body types.
- [12:24]
Jamila
But it also just says that the designers don't have any talent, because if you can only design something that looks good on a hanger, then you. You're not very good at your job. If you have no capacity for diversity, then I just don't think you're shit. And, and I really think that a designer truly proves what they're capable of by having clothes that can look good on a multitude of heights and shapes and sizes. And, and you often see the designers who take the risk to step outside of that box and, and prove that they can do it, they triple their income. So it's bad business to only design clothes that fit essentially on a prepubescent girl. And also it's why the fashion industry is crumbling. Because, you know, the clothes that only a woman like me, as in like a woman of my age can afford, I'm seeing a 17 year old wearing it. So I imagine a 17 year old wearing that item. And so I don't imagine myself, so I don't walk into the store and try it on because then I think I'm going to look silly because I've been told this is who should be wearing this outfit. That's why I think there are certain luxury brands like Zegna, for example, who just don't, you know, for men, it's a menswear brand. It's all like Mads Mikkelsen. Like the youngest person I think they have modeling for them is Lucas Bravo, who's in his late 30s. They know their audience. They know that the people who have the money to spend and that's why they're doing so well. Every other fashion brand is crumbling because of our obsession with youth, which is really just tied to the rampant pedophilia in our industry and in our society at large. I think a minority of men are very attracted to children and I think they want to hyper normalize that attraction to children by making everyone try to look like children so that we become so accustomed to that beauty standard that it no longer looks weird.
- [14:11]
Lucy
That's absolutely, that absolutely makes sense to me. And when you were talking about fashion and only showing it on young people, skin care is the same. It's like, why are we only showing skincare and skincare ads on women who are 20 that essentially don't need skincare? It alienates the older women that would be interested in those products.
- [14:29]
Jamila
Yeah, I don't know. I'm very confused. Like, I'd rather look at what's happening in the political climate. One of the things that we're seeing right now in our news cycle is the unbelievable amount of men in power across all types of different industries and within our politics who are abusing children. And then we have newscasters like Megyn Kelly now trying to soften the blow of being attracted to a 15 year old by saying, you know, at least it's not a five year old or an eight year old. We are seeing a tremendous, and I would say fast approaching hyper normalization of pedophilia. And I think it's so weird that it's coming along at the same time as more and more women starting to look and behave in an infantile way. Look at all the actresses who are developing really like childlike physiques. All of them, you know, we've all seen like, you know, and I, and I never want to critique someone's journey, but a lot of people have been talking about the cast of Wicked, that they're shrinking.
- [15:35]
Lucy
Yes, that's who came to mind. Absolutely mind immediately.
- [15:39]
Jamila
And so much so many of the young starlets, they're all, they, you know, they had breasts and hips before and now they don't. And their thighs are very far apart. And I just find the whole thing deeply suspicious. And I genuinely think it is somehow linked to the, the fast influx of the hyper normalization of pedophilia. And I think we should be really looking out for it because it doesn't track to me as to how women could be this far within feminism. We could have this much information about the patriarch, we could have this much information about diet culture, where it comes from, what's behind it, how bad it is for us. The fact that 5% of diets ever last, what it does to our bone density, the damages to our heart, to our muscles, to our mental health. In the 90s, at least we didn't know. Now we have so much information in the last 10 years, but we're doing it again. Why? Why is this beauty standard being pushed?
- [16:34]
Lucy
The thing that disturbs me is even today in like high fashion editorials, you'll see a model with like a huge teddy bear like that she's cradling and you're like, why are we showing like an adult woman in her underwear holding a teddy bear like that to me is very, very disturbing imagery. I think on a, on a more subtle level, there is this whole discourse about like, I'm a soft girl. I'm, oh, I'm just a girl. I want to turn my brain off. All that's in my head is like my next manicure and my matcha latte. I don't want to be perceived as a woman, even though I am well into my 30s. I'm just a girl.
- [17:10]
Jamila
It's because we've been fear mongered about our later lives. And that's because we've become so powerful. Men are terrified of what happens when we wise up and when we find ourselves and when we develop our own tastes that aren't just their tastes. They're terrified of what happens when we develop standards or we start to meet our own standards. And so they have to compete not with other men, but with us, us. And so they don't want us to ever get to that place of having the space to decide whether or not they are good enough for us. So they want young, young, young. Because young girls can't discern, as well we know, because we were those young girls we couldn't discern. I remember always having sex and not knowing. Not being able to decide if the sex was good or not unless I knew that he had had a good time, you know, and that's how I would decide whether or not the sex was good, is if he'd enjoyed the sex. Like, that's. That's how I lived my life in my early 20s, less so than some women I know, because, you know, I have always been quite defiant, but I still had it in me. And. And I think that women are terrifying to men as they get older. And I think that they teach us that once we're no longer fertile or fuckable, we are invisible. But we're not with them. We're free. I've never felt more powerful. I've never felt more confident. I've never felt sexier. I've never felt more interesting. I've never felt more sturdy on my own. Like I'm with someone I've been with for 11 years. But I don't need him. And he loves that I don't need him. He's grown to love that I don't need him. And I have pushed him to not need me either. We just want each other.
- [18:55]
Lucy
You have an interesting living situation, right, where you also live with your friends. There's kind of like a.
- [18:59]
Jamila
We did, we did.
- [19:00]
Lucy
We're back just living.
- [19:01]
Jamila
Just us. Yeah. But for 10 years, yeah, we lived. Lived with our best friends in a big house, and it was joy and like a giant fraternity in frat house for a really long time. So it was a rested development. But, yes, he has recognized that I will never need him, and that that is magic. Because now he's free to not have to go out there and provide for me and be everything that I need. He's free to grow and have his own journey and his own life and his own vulnerabilities, and he can break And I can catch him. And vice versa. I feel so sorry for men that they feel this need to subjugate us because it means they don't think very much of themselves. It's always really felt very emasculating to me to tell men that the only way for you to stand tall is to keep women down. Because as if they couldn't ascend to us like we're dominating in school, we're dominating them in the housing market, we're dominating them in many different industries now. And rather than just rise to where we've managed to rise within a matter of decades, after thousands of years of being subjugated, rather than think they can catch up, they just think we have to put these bitches back down underground. How sad. How sad to think you're so incapable of growth. Not every man feels that way, but far too many do. And so many boys are being indoctrinated to believe that. And it's all from a place of fear because they think that there's no need for them beyond their seed. That's what, that's what media has taught us. That's what books have taught us, that's what songs have taught us, that romance is the only. And romance and sex and intimacy is the only reason for men and women, to pardon the pun, come together. Whereas actually, so many great collaborations can happen between men and women that have nothing to do with intimacy and sex, a different kind of intimacy and intellectual sexual intimacy. And we never hear about that. We don't see stories of two friends who never get together very often. I think platonic is the first time we've seen that on a mainstream, and they had to call it platonic to make such a point of it. And even then, there's this natural urge when you're watching the show to be like, but are we gonna get together?
- [21:14]
Lucy
Right, right, right.
- [21:15]
Jamila
There's this tension.
- [21:17]
Lucy
Yes, yes, I, I, I value my. Yes, I value my relationships with my guy friends so much because, yes, it is completely platonic. And it's a totally different dynamic that has nothing to do with the friendships I had. And it's probably because I've been married for so long, but the friendships I had with men in the past were always kind of on this. Will they, won't they? You know, is something going to happen now? It's just purely friendship, which is so nice.
- [21:45]
Jamila
100%. 100%. Listen, I have a controversial opinion, but, which is that men are much more submissive and obedient naturally, than women.
- [21:56]
Lucy
Ooh. Say more about that. And how did you come to that extremely hot take?
- [22:00]
Jamila
I think because if you look at, first of all, how long it's taken to make women submit and we still haven't, that tells you a lot. I mean, the amount of violence that we have been subjected to, the amount we've been held back, and we are just not naturally submissive. When you look at the animal kingdom, women are far as in females are far less submissive and affectionate than males, much harder to train, much harder to get them to follow the rules. And, and I think when you look at the places where people fall in line the most, let's say joining ICE or joining the army or doing very dangerous jobs, risking your life to go down the mines so that some wealthy old cunt in an office can make billions and pay you minimum wage. I think men are more trainable and I think they consider that positive about themselves. And I can see, you know, that it's, you know, it's good to be able to follow some sort of instruction, but they don't need as much or require as much threat to be able to do these risky things. So I think that's because there is a natural submissiveness to men. I think there is a natural passivity to men. I think that's why all of the saddest industries are filled with men willing to risk their lives and their safety for another man at the orders of another man.
- [23:23]
Lucy
And all the way.
- [23:24]
Jamila
I just don't imagine a world in which, sorry, in which a majority of women would say, go and kill those children. Or look at what's happening to the women in Sudan, right, They're being raped with razors and having all sorts of objects and letters shoved up them all the way into their uteruses. I'm so sorry to be so explicit, but what army of women would do that to anyone else? What army of women could genocide this many children? Like, it's just not something we would do. We would say no, we would fight back. We are naturally inherently more rebellious, which is why we're still in this fight all these years later.
- [24:00]
Lucy
I think you're spot on. As you've explained it, I completely see it. Military aside, I think that goes for even things like investment banking, an industry that's so male dominated. I don't think that many women would dedicate this many hours of their life to making other people richer. Of course there are women that are in investment banking, but there are fewer for a reason. Some of it is sexism, but some of it is because it does not appeal to us to be that submissive.
- [24:26]
Jamila
Yes, exactly. And I'm not saying that women lack obedience because otherwise there would be no beauty industry, there'd be no diet industry. I'm not saying that we don't have any of those qualities, but those qualities are partially down to the fact that we live within an infrastructure that will not let us survive. If we don't meet those standards, we will be excluded, and then we don't have ways to secure ourselves in the same way that men do, which is why there aren't the same beauty standards for men. So that's just my belief. And I think because men inherently know the patriarchy inherently understands that there is a more obedient, submissive nature to men, they've decided to try and flip the script and convince women that we are in fact the passive submissive gender so that we never figure out how strong we are. And what's cool about turning 40 is you start to realize, oh, I'm fucking undefeatable. Like, I'm unbreakable.
- [25:17]
Lucy
I'm.
- [25:18]
Jamila
And, And. And that is petrifying to a man that's understanding your value. That's where I feel now. I would never, ever, ever trade the way I feel now for being in my twenties.
- [25:30]
Lucy
Interesting. Interesting. I'm. I am. I have so many thoughts to talk to you about in terms of beauty and your beauty standard. But first I wanted to get to how you came to la. So you were an English teacher, so it makes sense that you were a writer. You moved to LA to pursue writing. What was your immediate thought about the LA beauty standard? You came here in 2016. How did you feel about Los Angeles at the time, coming from the uk?
- [25:54]
Jamila
Because I'd come from the industry, you know, the entertainment industry. It wasn't as jarring as maybe as it would have been if I'd come from somewhere else. But I was accustomed to into women being constantly preened. But I'd never seen so many people not have their original teeth.
- [26:09]
Lucy
Yes, no one has their original teeth here. It's like just.
- [26:14]
Jamila
It's really crazy to all have to have the same exact smile. I'd never seen such an assimilation of the same face, which even all these years later, we don't quite have in England. Like people, there is still more individuality, and I love individuality. And one of the things I love about all the 90s beauty icons is that there was such a vast variety as to who you could think was beautiful. Whereas now it's so prescribed and uniform in a way that Feels very creepy. And I have another hot take about that, which is that I believe that they have been using a uniformed beauty standard for us to groom us to, to groom us for AI so, so that we no longer register a massive difference between AI and a real face. If real faces no longer move and don't have wrinkles and all look the same and have the same nose and the same, you know, fox eye and the same lips, it'll be harder for us to differentiate between a real face and an AI face because AI has been coming to replace us for years and years and years behind the scenes in Silicon Valley. And so I do think that it is an extraordinary coincidence that filters and then people trying to replicate filters IRL and going to surgery surgeons for what they call like Snapchat face to get completely smoothed out and expressionless means it's not that hard to mimic a real face with AI if real faces don't move anymore. Like Hollywood is so weird now. No one's face moves. No one can emote properly. The men can. Yeah, but you know, like this fucking blur even that we put under women's eyes that never moves quite right when they're moving around. You know, middle aged women or women over the age of 30, there's always this weird blur under their eyes and it's so fucking distracting. And then the man doesn't have it. I'm just, I just don't. I do believe we're genuinely grooming people for AI by trying to turn actual human beings into AI looking creatures. And I'm really sad that so many people are participating in that willingly.
- [28:17]
Lucy
Wow. I was gonna wait, but let's just get into it now. Many people could say that it is easy for you to have these takes about beauty because you are the beauty standard because you are young and beautiful and desired and have like the perfect proportions and the facial features that everyone wants to have. That gives you a certain privilege in saying that people shouldn't do a facelift and shouldn't do surgeries to alter themselves or shouldn't, you know, subscribe to the, to the beauty standard as heavily. What would you say to that?
- [28:49]
Jamila
Yeah, I mean, I have to answer that question all the time. First of all, like I said, I have been the same exact face has been in and out of the beauty standard. I'm sure it will fall out of the beauty standard again. I also am 40. I look older than I did 15 years ago. Obviously I'm not trying to return.
- [29:09]
Lucy
Just barely though. Jamila, you don't, you don't you don't. You don't want.
- [29:12]
Jamila
That's not true. No, that's really not true. Like, I posted pictures of myself finally in my 20s, and people were like, oh, okay, you have aged. And I was like, thank you.
- [29:21]
Lucy
Okay, I'll have to see. I'll have to see.
- [29:23]
Jamila
Absolutely. I don't have. I'm not skinny. I have no tone to my body. I don't work out. I have a completely flat ass. I have the ass of an old white man. It's also pale because it's never seen the sun. I have stretch marks. I have cellulite. I have all these different things. I recognize that I am in a slender form compared to other people, but within my industry, I do not look like the other girls. And so I could easily conform. I've just chosen not to. And I'm going to age and my face is going to continue to sag and I will continue to get lines and I'm going to embrace them. But I think just because I exist within privilege does not mean I shouldn't call this out. In the same way that my being a person who is wealthier than some other people in this world doesn't mean I shouldn't call out austerity in the same way that my now being a non disabled person means I shouldn't call out the way we treat disabled people. I'm cis. I call out the way that we talk about and treat trans people. I think with privilege, you almost have more of a responsibility to go, this is fucking bullshit. And people are going to extremes to look far closer to the beauty standard than I am naturally. Yeah, you know what I mean? I don't have tiny button nose. I don't. I haven't tweaked my face. And I'm allowing myself to age not gracefully. I hate that term. I think it shames women who just simply succumb to the patriarchy. I'm aging peacefully.
- [30:56]
Lucy
Oh, I love aging peacefully. Now, you said that when you do get lines, you said that you will embrace them. What if you don't?
- [31:02]
Jamila
What if, what if you get, I am embracing them. I'm never gonna. I'm never gonna have filler or Botox. And I can say that unequivocally because purely, not just out of spite, but also out of the fact that being a woman is such a painful existence. You know, as they say that we're born with pain in us and the world is so unsafe as a woman because we have to live alongside men. There is already enough pain and risk in this world just by existing as a woman. For me, for me to voluntarily risk, create any further risk or pain for myself. I'm not signing up for any more risk and pain purely on principle. And I would rather leave the industry and I would rather be alone. You know that it's like that woman on TikTok said she was like, oh, what, I'm going to look older one day and then men aren't going to want to have sex with me? Like, don't threaten me with a good time. I really felt that. So I, I really, I. There's nothing that could make me want to voluntarily pay money to hurt myself or risk my health or my safety. And that's just how I feel. And for that same reason, I don't drive. I will never drive. I don't. Wait roller coasters. I'm just saying for me personally, everyone else could drive, but I just know I would be a disaster driving because.
- [32:23]
Lucy
I have no, I don't, I don't drive. I don't drive. And now I need to adopt this, this reason for me not driving that I don't want to put myself in harm's way. I think growing up in New York city is probably 90% of it. But I also do have like a very irrational fear of getting into an accident that just makes driving so scary.
- [32:41]
Jamila
To me, so irrational. I mean, it happens all the fucking time.
- [32:45]
Lucy
It does happen. It does happen. So. But it's. You're making a really interesting point here about causing yourself harm. Because what some people say is putting on makeup for one person is the same as like getting Botox for another. Right? You are, you are altering yourself. But putting on concealer is not painful, right?
- [33:01]
Jamila
So it's not, it's not painful. There's just no significant risk. Whereas, you know, wasn't it.
- [33:05]
Lucy
There's no Bobby.
- [33:06]
Jamila
Although said she's paralyzed her face because of Botox. She's that huge tiktoker. She said, yeah, facial paralysis from Botox. I know numerous friends who developed long term neurological damage and something really horrifically painful called trigeminal neuralgia. We thought that filler was the safer alternative to Botox and that it always dissolves within six months. And now they're doing MRIs and they're showing that filler actually can stay for 10 years and beyond inside a face. And your immune system's always attacking it, which means your immune system is now working at lower capacity because it's always in a fight with this filler that you've put in so it doesn't have as much energy to go and fight other illnesses that you have. People have had tremendous complications with the fox eye lift. I'm sure facelifts aren't going to go well for everyone who doesn't have 150 to $200,000 to get it done properly, especially the deep plane facelift. Botox has led to the muscular atrophy of people's jawlines. Or it's made, you know, it's put pressure on their eyebrows or created different wrinkles somewhere else. The BBL has killed countless people. The weight loss injections, there's a 2 billion, I think dollar lawsuit against the weight loss injections. People have been going blind. That wasn't there a celebrity recently? I think Robbie Williams or someone who said he's gone blind on one of the GLP1s. So that's just not the same as lipstick. Like Prince wore makeup, David Bowie wore makeup. Makeup is like clothes. It's like a costume you can put on and then take off. There is a permanence that is understated in these procedures, even the smaller procedures. And the reason we underplay them is because we don't care what happens to women later. We don't care about women's long term safety, we don't care about bone density. The fact that all these women who are on these GLP1s are now not hungry, so they're not eating enough calories to meet their bmr. And if you don't do that, then when your body needs nutrients, it's going to take those nutrients from wherever it can. That's why a lot of people's hair are falling out on GLP1s. Or it's why a lot of people are developing osteopenia, which is the precursor to osteoporosis, because it's taking it from your marrow, it's taking it from wherever it can. We don't care if women get brittle bones because that'll happen later, when we don't want to fuck them anymore, when we don't. When we don't consider, when they're no longer fertile, when they're no longer valuable to us. So I think part of my defiance and my decision to try to embrace myself and protect myself is thinking I do care about what happens later, what happens if I live a really long life. I don't want to fall over and break a bunch of bones. I don't want to be brittle, I don't want to be frail, I don't want to be sick. I don't want to be tired. I want to live a long, strong, happy life. And I want my 85 year old self to know that I was excited for her arrival. I protected her, I respected her. You know, which is the opposite of how my 40 year old self feels about my 20 year old self. She tried to fucking kill me. For a beauty standard set by ugly men.
- [36:11]
Lucy
Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the things that I do well, it's okay. I have two thoughts. One, my hot take is that all of the Botox and these anti aging procedures actually make people look older than they are because they look like. Right. So if you're. I think that women in their late 20s and early 30s that are doing all of this stuff look like women in their 40s and 50s trying to look young. Right. Like, I don't think that. I don't think it has the effect that people. And that's just on a purely superficial level. I just don't think it has the effect that people want it to have.
- [36:43]
Jamila
But also there's this really interesting thing happening in Hollywood where I don't know if anyone's noticing that all the people who are having the facelifts, their lips are becoming really wide.
- [36:50]
Lucy
Like their face is becoming stretched.
- [36:51]
Jamila
Their face is becoming stretched. That means you get those wide lips that at first maybe aren't going to be as noticeable if you do it in your 30s. But a facelift is only effective for between five and 10 years depending how well you've had it done. So once you have to then pull it again and again and again. Eventually you look like Zippy. You know, your lips are as wide as your fucking eyes. So that it's a really. You know, there are strange things to look out for when you start to interrupt your appearance that anyone should do whatever the fuck they need to do. I know there are people who have experienced tremendous weight loss and they maybe feel like that is extra age them. I think Ricki Lake was talking about this. I God bless her for at least being transparent about it. I don't want to make a judgment and try and gatekeep the privilege that I have from the way that I look. I'm simply saying that I don't appreciate how little information there is about the risk, how taken for granted it is that women should volunteer themselves for this and pay the money they have when they do jobs that they are paid less for than a man will be. So we already are on less funds and then it's hyper normalized for us to spend all this money on Manicures, all this money on facials, all this money on lymphatic drainage, all this money on collagen, all this money on fucking salmon jizz. Like, it's just. It never ends. The amount of things that are being sold to us. You know, we were told not to have a labia and to cut our labias off and have vaginoplasty for all these years so that we could have porn like child pussies. And now they've decided they want the labia back, so now we're having filler in our labia again. And as I'm picturing pink shrinking the labias, so everyone's getting labia filler. And it's also shrinking the buttholes. So some people want to get butthole filler. This is very new medically. We don't know if it's safe to fck around with an area that's got thousands of nerve endings. What is that going to do? Are you going to still be able to enjoy sex? Most of the women I know who go to all of the extents of the efforts to. To look fuckable are too fucking tired to. They're too hard to have sex because all their energy has gone into maintaining these procedures that can be painful. They can be draining. It's exhausting. They're not eating enough. They don't even want to have sex. They're able to dress up in a way that makes them feel like they would be worthy of a date, but they don't really want to go on the date because they're exhausted from maintaining this ridiculous beauty standard. And I just say for myself, at least, fuck that.
- [39:12]
Lucy
I love it. I love it. I started watching the Substance over the weekend, and I actually kind of hated the film. I was, like, surprised at how much I hated it. Have you seen the Substance?
- [39:20]
Jamila
I can't take it. It's too gory for me. But I know what it's about, and I appreciate that, but it's too much gore.
- [39:27]
Lucy
It's gory, but also the lens. It feels like you're watching it through a very male lens that I did not appreciate as I was taking in the film. Okay, we do have to talk about the Good Place, of course, and what that experience was like for you, but also what inspired you to found the I Weigh movement.
- [39:44]
Jamila
Oh, well, I. The Good Place was incredible. You were asking me, right, about my experience there. Yeah, it was incredible. It was my first time acting. I'd never been an actor before.
- [39:54]
Lucy
Really?
- [39:55]
Jamila
Yeah.
- [39:55]
Lucy
I didn't know that you Would you would never know from watching it. You're so great and you were up against some like heavy hitters, you know, people that have been in it for a long time.
- [40:03]
Jamila
It was totally terrifying. And everything I have I owe to Ted Danson immediately speaking, spotting that I was a complete rookie and taking me under his wing and teaching me. I really appreciate him for that. He really did teach me everything I know. And they are an incredible cast to be able to work alongside and learn from. But I weigh just came from me entering Hollywood and having to start a social media account to promote the Good Place and then being exposed to Instagram properly for the first time. I'd never really, you know, I think I had a dormant account, but I'd never really looked at it or used it. I just always inherently felt very uncomfortable with social media. And I saw the Explore page which was full of loads of famous women with their weight written across their body and there were no pictures that were similar of men. And so I just said, oh, I can't believe that this is still happening 20 years after I developed my eating disorder. That's what I believed a woman's worth was, was her number on a scale. And now we still believe that and that's actually a very mainstream belief. And you don't have to go on to like secret pro Anna anorexia websites to find this information. It's on your Explore page. It's chasing me, it's hunting me. So I just said, well I, I weigh the sum of all of my parts. I weigh my achievements, my relationships, my mistakes, my orgasms, you know, my, I'm a multitude of things. I'm not just a number on a scale. And I, I posted it because I had PMS and I'm messy on social media as we know.
- [41:32]
Lucy
We love you. We love, we love all the posts, we love all the loud, not all.
- [41:36]
Jamila
Of them, but I've, you know, I've been figuring it out and I posted it and, and I just like millions of women around the world resonated with me and, and it turned into an eight year movement of people fighting, you know, the good fight with me. But that movement is dying now. You know, it's not, it's not going on anymore. I weigh, I've discontinued because people don't want to hear from anyone in a vaguely smaller body about why these beauty standards are dangerous. We suddenly have shut out all sensible communication and we don't want to, you know, we're the follow the science people, you know, on the left who now all of a sudden, you know, who are very pro vaccine but all of a sudden don't want to. You know, they've been joking about how a lot of the anti vax people have been taking Ozempic and how funny that is, which is just, it's just ironic. And, and I weigh was never built to say never lose weight, never change. It was just always please know the facts and please do everything slowly and carefully with the guidance of some sort of medical supervision. That's all we were ever saying. We were never saying you have to stay in any particular shape or form. But people really just don't want to hear it, but they just want to. Women are in a state of deliberate delulu where they're just kind of eyes closed, fingers and ears going la la la la la la. I don't want to hear it. I want to normalize. On all the podcasts I see the normalization of the facelift at such a young age and Botox filler, etc. It's just everywhere, dude. And I, I feel really heartbroken because I feel like we were going so far and now a lot of the leaders of those movements are now succumbing to the beauty standards. And, and I don't say that with judgment, I just say it with shock and, and sadness.
- [43:24]
Lucy
I have been on the receiving end of. I made a video on TikTok speaking about the rampant gl of zempic usage. I was speaking specifically to Serena Williams and it was very clear that people did not want to hear it from me. But I also appreciated hearing from women that have said that it's changed their life, it's made them healthier, it's made them feel right. So I understand on an intellectual level or just even a cognitive dissonance level why people don't want to hear people that have perfect bodies speaking about why you shouldn't use these things. I do.
- [44:02]
Jamila
I completely get that. And if there were not so many risks that weren't being disclosed, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If we had all the info and knew all of the risks and we were really highlighting that, I'd be fine with it. I believe in informed consent. My problem is the lack of transparency is the way that these things are sold as a miracle, as a free lunch. And as we know, there is no such thing as a free lunch. And there are so many people who are losing their gallbladders because of, you know, these drugs and, and listen, if that's something you're willing to do, at least go into that knowingly. But almost everyone who's had severe adverse side effects have said, I had no idea this was, this was something that was even possible for me. The people who've lost their eyesight had no idea that their doctors didn't warn them of this. They were not warned by the media, by the celebrities or influencers who pushed this stuff on them. The telehealth, you know, marketers who didn't give them blood tests beforehand or didn't check them for a history of thyroid cancer. My problem is the lack of information. I'm all about transparency. I don't give a fuck what anyone does, but I just want more transparency. And I'm surprised to see the lack of a call for that transparency. And so that's what bothers me. The thing that I think I was hoping would come from the GLP1 conversation is why GLP1s are so much more needed in America than almost any other country in the West. What does that say about food? Yes, there is specifically something about American people that makes them predisposed to wanting an extraordinary amount of junk food. When I go to Europe, I eat more than I do in America, and yet I lose weight. And not just when I'm on holiday when I live there. I've been in England for the majority of the last 18 months working, and I have and I eat. But just because you have more of an eating out culture here, I eat much more carbohydrates and much less vegetables here, and my body is smaller in England somehow than it was in America. So really what we should be asking is, what's happening with the food and water in that country that this is so needed, that it's so normalized? And that conversation just didn't happen. We just left it at quick fix and done. That's dangerous.
- [46:15]
Lucy
It's very dangerous. Or even our subservience to capitalism that keeps us working all the time so we aren't able to exercise our bodies. Right. Like we, you know, the work culture does not allow us to be healthy, and that is not examined at all.
- [46:29]
Jamila
And the stress. The stress, the insulin resistance that is born of being in a constant state of high cortisol.
- [46:36]
Lucy
Yes. What role do you think public figures, celebrities need to play in this? Like, if you woke up as Kim Kardashian tomorrow, what would you, what would you do?
- [46:48]
Jamila
Look, I'm not going to speak for her. She's a grown adult woman with, you know, pubes, I imagine. I don't know. I would say that if I woke up As a super powerful celebrity with that kind of following, I would advocate for transparency and I would advocate for women's choice. And I would spend less time distracting women with their exterior and more time encouraging women to recognize that our rights are being taken away very, very fast. I think this is the fastest we've ever lost this many rights in history. So I would be focusing my attention on the things that are going to last forever, rather than quick, temporary sprints to reach an ever changing beauty standard. And I would hope that people would also. I would wish that more celebrities would advocate for better quality, nutritious food and water in our country that is only accessible to them. Mega, mega wealthy. You know, people joke about erewhon prices, but that shit's real. It's crazy that it costs, you know, $20 for an organic juice in this country. What is everyone supposed to do? You know, look at the, the bowel cancer numbers in younger people than anywhere else in the West. Something's going on there. It's not greed. Americans aren't just predisposed to greed. Something's going on. Why are the cancer rates like this? Why is the depression like this? You know, we know that 90% of your serotonin, I think, is made in your gut, 50% of your dopamine is made in your gut. There is almost no information about gut health anywhere outside of the niche corners of the Internet. Kids don't grow up knowing anything about nutrition. Doctors spend something like eight hours or something or 18 hours of their time in medical school, their seven years of medical school studying nutrition. The country is a mess. Like, you can't just drug it away. Something has to change institutionally. So that's what I wish really powerful celebrities would do. But instead, they're just selling stuff. And I think it's okay to sell stuff that you believe in occasionally, but, like, match it up, like, even it out with reminding women that our rights are being taken away.
- [48:56]
Lucy
They should be.
- [48:56]
Jamila
I don't want to just be. Yeah. I don't want to have, like, no lines in my handmaid's tail bonnet.
- [49:03]
Lucy
From a mental health perspective, how do you handle being such an outspoken public figure? Right, because you are scrutinized for your point of view. And I'm sure it's a lot like, we weren't ever meant to receive this much feedback about ourselves. How do you contend with that?
- [49:20]
Jamila
I mean, it's just not really. I listen to people's feedback and I'm always curious to see if I've missed the mark. And I take it on board. And I evolve and I've evolved right in front of everyone and a lot of people have grown with me, and that's been really cool. But I don't hold myself to a standard of perfection. That's patriarchy. I hold myself to the same standards white men get held to. I mean, they get to look at Shia LaBeouf like that man has, literally. I mean, the things he's been accused of.
- [49:49]
Lucy
Is he still around, though? It hasn't.
- [49:51]
Jamila
He's very much so around and a sex symbol. Even for liberal feminist women. I'm very concerned as to what he's allowed to get away with. So men are allowed to get away with actual violence and still be allowed a way back in. I'm allowed to be annoying and say something imperfectly now and then with my heart in the right place and the best of fucking intentions. So I don't hold myself to any standard of perfection. I don't expect to be liked or believed or approved of by everyone. I really don't understand why you need to approve of my character to hear the objective truths I'm stating that are backed by fact and science. And I think that's a really weird part of our culture where the powers that be that want you to shut the up, which is the media that is largely funded by the beauty and diet industry, by loads of the most predatory industries, ones that I attack constantly. I think that they have normalized us holding someone to being the standard of a perfect, eloquent politician level, you know, orator and a saint in order for you to be able to hear their objective facts. You know, when I talk about men's violence against women, who gives a fuck what you think about my personality or whether you think I am cheat or a liar or a murderer even. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't change what I'm saying about statistics about men's violence against women or about eating disorder statistics or about the genocide that we're witnessing in front the multitude of genocides that we're witnessing in front of our very eyes. I think it's very weird that you need to approve of women entirely before you can hear the objective truths that they fight for and that they say. I think it's a toxic part of our culture that needs to change. I think when someone's right, they're just right. And it doesn't matter who the vessel is. I'm not trying to sell my own life story. I'm trying to tell people objective social facts.
- [51:49]
Lucy
I see it all the time. Yes, Yes, I see it all the time with Amanda Seals, who is very outspoken and people are like, yeah, she just, she's just not likable. I don't know, there's something about her. I just don't like her. And I'm like, what does liking her have anything to do with what she's speaking to?
- [52:04]
Jamila
But, you know, it's really, really strange. It's really strange. It's very unhelpful. And I don't think it was. I think it's actually. I think we're falling for something created by the opposition. I think the opposition have created this culture in us, and I think we're just fallen for it because we take bait so easily, especially liberals. Oh, my God, we love bait. It's our favorite thing to eat.
- [52:24]
Lucy
How, how do you maintain your own well being? What practices do you have day to day, month to month to keep you feeling good in your body?
- [52:32]
Jamila
Well, I don't seek validation from anyone outside of myself, apart from maybe my dogs. But nobody has the power to tell me who I am or what I am or if I'm good enough apart from them. And they are my marker of whether or not I'm doing good or not. If they love me, if they seem happy, I'm doing good. So I don't take any of my validation from the outside from anything or anyone. And so that means that I maintain a lot of peace. It doesn't mean I don't take notes. It just means that I can't be validated by anyone but me. And then I walk my dogs. I spend lots of time with animals. I have very, very close friendships. I spend a lot of time focusing on them. I spend very little time focusing on my career or on hustle culture. I stopped girl bossing six years ago when I realized how disgusting that term was. I very much so believe in seeking out pleasure. And I think for women, pleasure has been turned into not just an indulgence, but kind of a sin. And I consider it a necessity in life. So everything I do is probably on some level quite dopamine seeking. But I seek pleasure constantly, everywhere, in everything. And also, and I think this is just truly important for everyone to believe is that, look, I just don't like most people and it doesn't negatively impact their lives for me to not like them or for me to find them annoying. So it's okay if people don't like me or they find me annoying. It doesn't have to negatively impact my life. Because why do I need to impress a Bunch of people I don't want to fucking talk to, you know, I'm not here to make friends. I'm here to get a point across and to open people's minds. I'm not here to change people's minds, even. I'm just here to say some stuff that I think needs to be said, to ask the important questions and to state the inconvenient truths for as long as anyone wants to listen to me. No one has to listen to me. I don't require it of anyone. I have a large following because I think there's a lot of people who feel the same way that I do, and I'll keep talking as long as that lasts. And I'm happy to stop anytime. But I think having that attitude of realizing that it is pure misogyny and patriarchy that a woman has any prescription to have to be or any obligation to be liked, believed, understood, or approved of.
- [54:56]
Lucy
The interesting byproduct of that for you is that you are so likable. Like you. You. Some.
- [55:03]
Jamila
Some people hate me. They really do. They parasocially hate me. They've never met me, but they hate me.
- [55:08]
Lucy
But. But people that hate you are sort of just fans as well, right? Like, for people to even feel that strongly about you, there's some. They're being emotionally pulled and tied to you. I don't hate someone that I don't care about totally.
- [55:23]
Jamila
Well, look, I'm an entertainer, and so whether you love to love me or love to hate me, I'm still doing my job. I'm still. Are you not entertained? You know what I mean? And so I feel as though I'm fulfilling my purpose. And in the same way that we know that love can turn to hate very fast, hate can turn to love. And a lot of people who really didn't fuck with me five years ago really ride for me now. And so I consider all of these things very transient. You should never rely upon hatred or love as being a constant, because they're always changing. And I think, as Georgia o' Keeffe said, compliments and insults, you know, go down the same drain. And I think that is the healthiest approach and one that I have taken on most of my. My public life, is that I don't. No one can. No one's flattery penetrates me, and no one's hatred penetrates me.
- [56:14]
Lucy
I love that. I love that. It feels like such a small question after tackling all of the big ones, but you do just have gorgeously shiny hair. Always, like the Perfect cat eye always like this gorgeous, like brown, like mauve lip. I do need to what some of your favorite go to beauty products or treatments are because you always look gorgeous.
- [56:35]
Jamila
Oh, thank you very much. Mostly my, my hair and beauty care is on the dinner table. Like I look like shit. When I wasn't eating enough and my hair was falling out and I was having to wear hair extensions all the time. So my hair is thicker because I eat much more and I've gained weight which is fantastic. So eat your nutrients is the first and foremost thing. But also I use I guess K18 in my hair every so often. It's very good for strength, bond strength. And I don't know. And I don't heat it a lot. I mostly leave it natural and air dried. And for my lips I use Foxy by Stila which is a fantastic lip stain. And I tested it out and went to the dentist and got like a wisdom teeth removed and it was still on at the end and I was like, this shit's real. So I like something I don't have to reapply a lot because I don't like looking in the mirror very much. And my cat eye is. What do I use? I use Charlotte Tilbury just the eyeliner pen for that. But yeah, I'm not big on a big beauty routine because I think it fucks up your skin care skin barrier. Sorry. So exfoliating here and there, but nothing too high maintenance. I don't want to spend too much time on my face, otherwise I'm gonna have to keep it up. And also I do think that if you do too much you end up doing more damage. So my family has always been oil on the face and that's always what I've done. I'm an oil girl.
- [58:03]
Lucy
I am an oil girl too. Is there anything.
- [58:05]
Jamila
Also my face is. My face is drier than Gandhi's asshole. So you know, like even oil doesn't work. It's just like within a second of putting it on. I like Charlotte Tilbury's magic oil. That's the one that I use.
- [58:18]
Lucy
Nice.
- [58:18]
Jamila
It's really good.
- [58:19]
Lucy
Have you tried? I don't even know if they have it in the uk. Ronavant. Do you know the brand Ronavant?
- [58:24]
Jamila
No.
- [58:25]
Lucy
They make this beautiful saffron oil that's just like so gorgeous.
- [58:29]
Jamila
Well, you have amazing dewy skin so maybe I'll try that, you know, because I never feel soft. My face is always feels like it's about to crack and that's not me self deprecating. I don't know why I'm so dry. I drink so much water, but it's just horrific. It's horrific. It's like the Sahara desert.
- [58:47]
Lucy
I can relate. I want to close out with two final questions. One I'm really curious about because you've had so many different modes of your career. What does success look like to you now? And it doesn't just have to be career. It can be an interpersonal relationships or a relationship with yourself. But what does success really look like to you?
- [59:03]
Jamila
I genuinely monitor success via how much I laugh every day. And that's my genuine metric. Like if I haven't laughed, I've had an unsuccessful day. And I look back at jobs I've had that have been the most, you know, like, revealed or moments I've had or magazine covers and. And a lot of them have been my most miserable times in my life. And some of the dumbest shit I've ever done has been the happiest I've ever been. And the stuff that I look back on. So really I only measure success via what I will look back on, on my deathbed and go, oh, that was great.
- [59:33]
Lucy
Yeah.
- [59:34]
Jamila
And so that's it. It's. I'm very deathbed oriented. I watch a lot of videos of people on their deathbed or in their, you know, in their final days talking about what they regret or what they're really happy about. And I use that as guidance for myself.
- [59:48]
Lucy
Where do you find these videos?
- [59:49]
Jamila
It used to be money. It used to be money, but money, just success didn't, didn't. It didn't fill the void, it turned out. Who would have thunk after all those spiritual leaders were telling us for thousands of years. But really, it's just laughter now. Sorry, what were you going to say?
- [60:05]
Lucy
I was just curious where you find these videos of people on their deathbed?
- [60:08]
Jamila
YouTube. YouTube. I think I'm now on a weird deathbed algorithm. But it's lots of just very, very old people talking about, you know, a lot of them, a lot of the women in particular. It's the womens I'm the most interested in. All of them tell say that they wish they hadn't centered men so much. So I very much so have taken that to heart and. And have not centered men for a very long time, even though I live with one. Yeah.
- [60:37]
Lucy
Yes. When do you feel most beautiful?
- [60:40]
Jamila
I never feel beautiful.
- [60:43]
Lucy
Really?
- [60:44]
Jamila
Yeah, I never feel beautiful. But I also don't hold a lot of value in feeling beautiful. For me personally, it's not really something I'm that interested in. And it's not something I'm actually attracted to either. I'm generally more sapiosexual. So all the people that I've been attracted to are all hilarious and smart and talented. So I'm more into who someone fundamentally is. I can appreciate beauty, but it's not very, very important to me. Like, if you look at everyone I've ever had sex with, there's no. There's no type there. They are all wildly different because I'm not really that fixated upon aesthetic. So I never feel beautiful. But when I feel my happiest is lying in bed with my boyfriend with our dogs on top of us, and that, to me is just heaven. And where I almost don't even have a body, we're just four souls, you know, just enveloped, wrapped around each other like a croissant or something. So, yeah. So I'm just being really honest. I never, ever have a time where I'm like, huh, I feel really beautiful. I've never. I've never had that. I'm sure that's like partially low self confidence or trauma, but also, I just don't care. And that might be old age, you know, I'm 40 now. I don't give a. I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks. I like makeup styles that suit me. Everyone's really mad at my hairstyle. They hate my hairstyle. I don't know. People are mad about it. They're like, when are you gonna change your hairstyle? The Internet is mad at my hairstyle. There's an entire Twitter account dedicated to the gap in my fringe. I've had the same hairstyle, in their defense, for 37 years. But you know who else has? George Clooney. So I've decided that when George changes his hair, I'll change mine. But I just can't be bothered. I do everything for me, for my comfort, and I probably only bathe because I have a boyfriend. Yes, well, listen, the second we break up, fucking stay away from me, dude, because you'll smell me coming from a thousand miles away. I'm a goblin. Deep down, I love it.
- [62:58]
Lucy
Jamila, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you today on Naked Beauty. And I love that you have encouraged us to think about beauty in new ways. You've encouraged me to think about beauty in new ways. And I will be following along every word and every. That you do, because I'm just such a fan.
- [63:12]
Jamila
Oh, thank you very much. I'm sorry if I come across as quite negative for me, very positive. But I never know how it comes across to others. So I hope I didn't drag you down in any ways. You're such a beaming, positive, glowing woman.
- [63:28]
Lucy
Oh, thank you. No, no, it's needed. We need to have this critical discourse. So I appreciate the transparency and I appreciate you.
- [63:35]
Jamila
Lots of love. What I'm wearing, If I wanted to watch, I'm wearing the house I live in, the car I'm driving. Boost Mobile is now sending experts nationwide.
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Boost Mobile Advertiser
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Jamila
Not with that attitude.
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Lucy
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Jamila
Then stay in bed and let a.
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Boost Mobile Advertiser
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- [64:49]
Jamila
Oh right.
- [64:50]
Boost Mobile Advertiser
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