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- [00:00]
A
Hello. Hello. This is Brooke Devard, and you're listening to the Naked Beauty podcast. I just got back from an incredible three days in Grand Cayman. Now, this hotel, it's called Palm Heights. I have never been to a hotel quite like this. It's like the Soho House. 10 times better. Every single detail is so just considered. The rooms are gorgeous. They have a library on the property that has all of these great fashion books, beauty books. Here's the crazy thing. Okay, listen to this. When I checked into my room, there was a Kevyn aucoin Making Faces book, one of the greatest OG beauty books of all time. If you don't have this book, get on ebay, it's probably even on Amazon, and get this book. It is incredible. Making Faces by Kevyn Aucoin. It goes through all of these just, like, incredible makeup techniques. If you don't know who Kevin Aucoin is, if he were alive today, he would have definitely been on Naked Beauty, one of the most iconic makeup artists from the 1990s. Okay, that was in my room. Then there was a book about African hair braiding and, like, pre colonial African hair braiding styles. Who loves to change their hair more than me? I was like, wow. And I like. I was like, is this a coincidence? And they were like, no. They, like, research each guest, and they, like, put the books in the room accordingly. It's on the beach. The most incredible beach. The water was just so good. I went swimming every day two times. And then I got to do all of these really great workshops. Friend of the pod, Erica Chidi, led a workshop on how to live in a soft body Body. This whole trip was curated by Spread the Jelly. Now the girls from Spread the Jelly, Amorett Lauren have to have them on the podcast too. They've created this whole, like, movement about motherhood and showing how motherhood can be different, how we can be vulnerable with each other. It. They just do great editorial work. So follow Spread the Jelly on Instagram if you're not already. And also, even if you're not a mom, I think it's great to follow them because they're just doing really great storytelling, and I think it really lifts the veil on so many of the things about motherhood that we don't talk about. So they curated this incredible trip, and they brought maybe 10, 12 girls together. All of us on the trip had babies under 1 years old. Okay. So all of us were, like, very recently, like, in the throes of motherhood. Two of the women on the trip were pregnant, and it was like, let's just come together and celebrate us. Let's put ourselves first. Let's put ourselves first. We got to go shopping. They have a beautiful shop on the property at Palm Heights that has, like, Christopher John Rogers and Marnie and Christmas Christopher Esper. They gave us each. I mean, I don't know if I should say the amount. I guess, listen, it's a safe space here on the pockets. They gave us each, like, 500 to shop at the shop on property. They booked us all spa appointments. Like, we all just got to do spa appointments, hang out on the beach, and then attend these really great workshops. I also made a new great friend, Kirsty Godso. She goes by kg. She's an amazing trainer. She, like, led us in a training workshop. Another trainer was there, la, who taught us a lot about how to, you know, take care of our bodies in this postpartum period. Heavenly. Heavenly. It makes me just think about even, like, doing a gathering for naked beauty. Like, can we all go somewhere and have a fun time? Let me know DM me if you think that would be cool. I left the trip feeling so rejuvenated. But listen, couldn't leave the trip unscathed. And then on the way back, I had my very first Karen experience. I'll just tell the story quickly since we're here already. I had a driver that met me inside of the terminal, right? So, you know, when the drivers come in with the sign, the trip, it was very nice. They arranged transport for us. So everyone on the way back had, like, a driver. I had a great driver, great guy. We got along great. We were just chatting as I was waiting for the bags to come. And then some of the other girls who landed were also waiting by the baggage claim area. So we were just chatting, and I told my driver, I said, I have a dark green Rimowa bag. I saw the dark green Rimowa bag coming down baggage claim. We picked it up, went to my car, we're driving back home. I'm like 20 minutes away from my house, so I'm like 30 minutes away from the airport. I get a missed call from a number I don't know. I was on the phone with my husband, so I didn't pick it up. And then I get another missed call from the same number. So I'm like, what's going on? I answer it. It's American Airlines. Hi, this is American Airlines at the baggage department. We have your bag here. I said, you have my bag? My bag is in the back. They said, no, it's someone Else's bag. And we have a green rimowa bag here. You must have the same bag. The person on the phone is calm. I hear this woman in the background. She sounds like she is foaming at the mouth. She's like, give me her phone number. Give me her number right now. Tell her I need her phone number so I can text her. I'm like, oh, my God. And I can hear that they are basically ignoring her. They're not. At no point do they say, like, we need to have your phone number. They're just, like, icing her out. But I'm like, oh, gosh. This woman's, like, rabid. Meanwhile, we have the exact same bag. Like, it's not the craziest thing in the world that we have the exact same bag. Sure. I didn't check the name on the tag. My driver grabbed it. So anyway, I say, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. Coming back to the airport right now, heading back. She says, okay, how long is it going to take? And I say, it's going to be about 30 minutes. And then I hear this woman in the background, like, 30 minutes. This is ridiculous. I can't believe this. She's like, shout. She's so upset. I'm like, okay. I mean, I don't know what this woman wants me to do. Fly back there. Also, like, you have my bag. Like, I don't know why you're the one that's, like, so upset. Like, you also have my bag. Like, I understand it's not ideal, but, like, I'm also inconvenienced. It's not like I have both bags. Like, of course I'm invested in going back to get my bag. I do not care about your bag. I want my bag as well. Anyway, we drive back, and my driver's like, do you want me to go in with you? And I'm like, actually, kind of, yes. Because she sounds, like, really unhappy. And he's like, I'll just say it was my fault. I'll just say it was my fault. I was like, I mean, listen, it was both of our faults, but, like, yes, come in with me. As we're walking to the baggage office at American Airlines, we run into the woman, and I'm so sorry to say she is an older white woman. Karen behavior is not relegated to only older white women. But this just happened to be an older white woman. She sees my driver, and I. My driver is, like, carrying her bag to the baggage office that we agreed at, and she goes, stop. Stop right now. We're looking around, like, what is going on? She runs up to us, she puts her hand on the bag, and she's like, this is my bag. And I'm like, hi, yes. Can we go to the baggage office so that I can get my bag as well? She's like, I'm taking my bag right now. I'm like, okay, can we go to the baggage office? As we're, like, walking. I guess she, like, didn't want to walk with the bag to the baggage office with me so we could, like, explain the situation. As she's walking with me, she decides she's going to, like, berate both of us. Like, just let, like, lay into us. She's like, I don't know why you would ever take a bag without looking at the tag. Like, did you think this was really your bag? Like, look. And she points to this, like, little tag she has on it. She's like, your bag does not have a tag like this. Like, why would you take my bag? And I said, listen, I made a mistake. My driver picked it up, and then she turns to the driver, and she was like, I don't know how you can do the job that you do if you're not doing basic things like looking at people's names. This is so unprofessional. I said, don't talk to him that way. Mind you, I don't know this man, but I was just personally so offended by the gall to just speak to another human being that way. This woman is so upset. Like, her face is red. She's just going off. And I said, hey, it's not a big deal. You have your bag. I'd like to get my bag. And it's fine. It's all going to work out. There's no need for this level of energy. We get to the office, she's like, I found them. I have the bag. I'm so upset this happened. I don't know who in their right mind. And so I just said to her, I said, does it make you feel better to act this way? She looked so embarrassed when I said that. She looked so embarrassed. And that just shut the whole thing down. She, like, let out a deep breath. She was like. And she just, like, walked away. But that was my genuine question. Like, does it make you feel better to act like a complete lunatic? That's what I really want to say. But I said, does it make you feel better to act this way? It was like just holding a mirror up. Like, hey, girl, you're crashing out over nothing. How? What is what is the benefit of acting this way? Why are you doing this? And that just really shut her up. When I went to the women at that American Airlines counter, they were like, my God. They were like, we are so, so sorry about her. I said, listen, don't apologize. I know you guys have to deal with unhinged people every single day, but I will tell you something. I heard her when you guys called me begging for my phone number on the phone, and I heard that you all just completely ignored that. They said, oh, yeah, we were not going to give that crazy woman here. They didn't say, crazy woman. They said, we were not going to give her your number. I said, thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you for your patience. And they said, here's your bag. It's the exact same bag as her bag. And great. Now I've learned I'm going to put a sticker on my. I'm going to make very identifying things to my bag, and I'm going to check the names in the future. But I will say, if you ever have to deal with a Karen, like, by the way, after that encounter, like, I was shaking. Like, I was like, that totally messed up my nervous system. Especially after this calm, gorgeous, beautiful trip. I was like, that was so unnecessary. But I do think that when you are in those situations, you. You have to stay calm, because I think that they really want to rile you up. Like, I think that the other party really wants to get you upset and, like, get you in your feelings. And, like, they are so imbalanced that they want to, like, project that onto you. They're like, I'm so upset. So, like, I want to make you upset. And you really. And you guys know I'm a very calm person. So, like, one, stay calm. And then two, I do think you have to, like, defuse the situation. And I like the tactic of, like, putting a mirror up and just being like, why are you acting this way? Does it make you feel better to act this way? And also just explaining how unnecessary it is. Like, when she started going in on my driver, I was like, okay, what you're not gonna do is this, like, leave him out of it. And it's just so unnecessary. I hope that people listening haven't had a Karen encounter. And if you have, I'm sorry that that's happened to you. All right, today's episode is the opposite of Karen energy. And this is going to be interesting for you all because this is me being interviewed by someone else, which doesn't happen quite that often or like, it does happen. But I feel like you guys don't hear about it a lot on the podcast ever since my producer interviewed me, which is great. We should do that again at the end of this year. But this is an episode of my friend's podcast, Naima. She has an incredible podcast which you should all subscribe to, called Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I know you will absolutely love it. I think her new season opens with Esther Perel, who's like one of my favorite therapists of all time. She's just really fun. She asks really interesting questions and every episode I listen to of her podcast, I learn a little bit. So I will be sure to link to her show in the show notes and enjoy this conversation we had a few months back where we were just kind of getting to know each other more and talking about beauty. All right, we'll talk soon.
- [10:22]
B
Smart Girl Dumb Questions. Welcome to Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I'm Naima Reza. And today my dumb questions are about beauty. How do we as a society decide what is and isn't beautiful? And why does that standard keep shifting all the time? Also, how much of self care is just capitalism and taking care of the Kardashians, who, yes, need home renovations too. Now, there are not many worlds in which I can call myself a virgin, but when it comes to beauty treatments, you can call me Mary. And that's not some subtle flex. I definitely wear makeup. I care what I look like. I have a Dyson airwrap. It's just that I'm genuine, genuinely scared of penetrating my body with anything that sounds like it may harm me. And I'm talking about lasers and toxins and dye. And I'm so suspicious of things that sound like they're just ripping me off. And I'm talking about toners and serums and ingestible beauty. Like, why do I have to eat my beauty now? So I needed to ask my dumb questions to somebody who actually knows. And Brooke Devard is the perfect person for that. She was a Ford model back in high school, then she interned at Vogue. She went on to work at places like Ralph Lauren and Instagram, which is where I think we set our beauty standards these days. And she's the host of Naked Beauty, which just won iHeart's Best Beauty Podcast of the year. Here's my conversation with Brooke Devard. Hi. Hi, Naima, I need to know, in my prep for this, I need to know about salmon sperm. Yes, but we're not going to start there.
- [11:53]
A
Okay. Okay.
- [11:54]
B
Soon to be the cliffhanger. Soon Salmon sperm. But I want to start with this idea of Instagram face.
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C
Yeah.
- [12:02]
B
Do you want to explain what Instagram face is?
- [12:04]
A
I feel like Instagram face is poreless skin. Right. The skin is super smooth, like, not a pore in sight. Kind of like a fox eye, like a cat, like a kind of upturned eye, full lips, very sculpted, chiseled features. And then I think the important thing about it is also that it is, like, a little racially ambiguous. Like, the skin is fair usually, but there's, like, some racial ambiguity. It's like, oh, they could maybe be a little. A little Asian, or their lips are so full, they could be mixed with something else. So it's this kind of, like, racially ambiguous, very angular, lifted face.
- [12:39]
B
Sculpted.
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A
Sculpted.
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B
The term was coined by the celebrity makeup artist Colby Smith.
- [12:44]
A
Okay, I didn't even know that.
- [12:45]
B
But it was popularized by Gia tolentino in this 2019 article for the New Yorker. And she says it looks at you coyly but blankly, as if its owner has taken half a Klonopin and is considering asking you for a private jet ride to Coachella and talks about that same idea of ethnically ambiguous. You said. And Colby Smith says it's Instagram face. Duh. It's an unrealistic sculpture, volume on volume. A face that looks like it's made out of clay.
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A
Yes. I would say that that's accurate. And some of it is filters, some of it is makeup application. A lot of it is cosmetic surgery.
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B
Yes.
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A
But I think we've seen, over time, people all kind of go towards a similar aesthetic.
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B
Yes.
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A
I was looking at something they were talking about, like, beauty in the 90s, and they were saying how different everyone looked. Like, you would look at the top actresses and models, and they all were very different and distinct.
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B
Right. And you think of that George Michael Freedom video with all the supermodels, and they all look so different. It's not one thing. Is it still our standard of beauty?
- [13:42]
A
You know, I do think it's changing a little bit. I was thinking about the popularity of Amy Lou Wood in the White Lotus, who has just these very beautiful, distinctive teeth, and how just everyone just kind of agreed, like, she's so beautiful, and part of her beauty is that she has these teeth that she hasn't conformed to the Hollywood norm of veneers. So I do think that there is. Lately, I'm seeing more appreciation for unique beauty.
- [14:05]
B
Yes, that's historically been the case. I mean, Kate Moss, beautiful teeth. That Welsh gap.
- [14:09]
A
Yes.
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B
That's Very standard in kind of Welsh society. Do you think that filters and Facetune is making beauty more accessible or making beauty more oppressive?
- [14:22]
A
Definitely more oppressive. I just did an episode of Naked Beauty where I had people write in questions, and I got a question from someone who said, when I put on my makeup, I see pores underneath. And, like, how do I get that poreless look?
- [14:35]
B
Yes.
- [14:35]
A
And I was like, it's not you or the makeup or the application. It's like everyone that you're seeing has a filter. When you go to film on TikTok, the filter's already there before you even. I think you have to, like, opt out of it. Right. So I think filters are creating this very unrealistic beauty standard. And I think the Internet at large and social media has made way for us to appreciate different types of beauty. We don't only rely on magazines anymore or what we see on tv, but I think that it's really warping people's perception of what's normal.
- [15:07]
B
I think I completely agree with you. It reminds me of when I was young. I remember I was in Pakistan and a cousin of mine, Fatima, we were watching MTV or something. This is like the 90s. And she said, how come girls in America have such shiny legs? And I was like, you know, there's that concept of. It seems so. It seems like it's meant to be natural. Of course, now we know they all wear tights.
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A
Right.
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B
Those are not their legs.
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A
Right.
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B
But it was that sense that everybody should have this that said, you know, in Jihad's article in the New Yorker, she said it was in 2019, something like $16 billion spent on cosmetic surgery in the United States.
- [15:45]
A
And that's only increased.
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B
You think that's increased because of Instagram face and the fillers and the filters?
- [15:49]
A
Well, I just think, in general, the obsession with. I think beauty has just grown as a category so much. I mean, skin care has grown exponentially.
- [15:57]
B
When we are chasing this kind of beauty ideal. Women, you know, it said when women dress, they dress for women. Do you think when women, who are the predominant consumers of beauty.
- [16:07]
A
Yes.
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B
Are chasing this beauty ideal, they're doing it for other women? Are they doing it for men? Are they doing it for posterity? Like the images that are stuck in their Instagram forever?
- [16:18]
A
It's a really good question. I think they're doing it for themselves. I think, you know, one of the things that I've heard is that people want to look like themselves, but 10 years earlier, that that's, like, the ideal for beauty. Enhancements. I don't want to look different. I don't want to look like someone else. I just want to look like myself 10 years ago. Yeah. And that's what a lot of people go. Some people even go into cosmetic surgeons with images of themselves ten years ago and just say, I'm losing volume here. So I think it is really for yourself. Men don't really notice things. Right. I don't think a man's gonna notice if you have extra volume in your cheekbones. I do really think it's something that people do for themselves and. And that is also to be celebrated. You know, I think that we can all make our own choices. It's. I think it's a slippery slope.
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B
Right.
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A
Because you can do it and do it and do it, and then you start to become used to your face with these enhancements, and then you feel. Feel beautiful without them. Right. But it's a choice.
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B
I just imagine you would go into a. Like, if I were to go in and see a plastic surgeon, I'd go in with, like, a picture of Emily Ratajkowski or something. But I never thought about the fact that you're going in with a picture of how you used to look. That kind of restorative beauty.
- [17:27]
A
Yes.
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B
But I agree with you. It is. I don't know if humans were supposed to look at themselves this much.
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A
I agree.
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B
The advent of the mirror, really.
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A
Yes. Or those. Those super, like, magnifying mirrors where you can, like, see everything so close. And then you just have to realize no one's looking at your face that closely.
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B
No one's looking at your face. That is the thing that your mom used to tell you when you were a teenager, and she's like, no one's looking at your face. No one knows you have a zit. Is so true about all things in life. By the way, I just was seeing this survey that I think it was like 13, 14 that you'd start putting on makeup 10 years ago. And is that. Does that seem. Well, you were a New York girl.
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A
Yeah, I guess. Yeah. 13, 14. That sounds kind of right. Yeah.
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B
Right. 10 years ago in 2014, Cosmo said it was age 11 is the new age. And recently I've been seeing surveys that say it's 8 to 9 years old or that a majority of children 8 to 9 are wearing some kind of. Or have some kind of skin care or beauty care regime.
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A
Yeah.
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B
What do you think of that?
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A
I think it's good and bad. I think it's good to learn to take care of your skin at a young age. But I also think it's good. It can't be good for your skin. Like, when I see young girls using specifically actives retinols exfoliants. Like retinols? Yes. There's been all of these stories about girls that are, like, 12 and 13, like, going and buying drunk elephant retinol.
- [18:51]
B
Oh, God. That, like, beautiful. The mask that they have.
- [18:54]
A
Yes. Like, they. They basically want to start. They basically. They're watching their favorite YouTuber who's older than them, and they just want to do the same thing. They want to do the same routine. And they're thinking never too, you know, early to start, and that's what we.
- [19:05]
B
Kind of tell them and the marketing and etc. But I just hear, as we think about that, younger and younger. Is this why, like, millennials are looking better than Gen Z? First of all, do you believe millennials are looking better than Gen Z?
- [19:20]
A
I don't buy that fully. I don't buy that full well. I've heard that people think that. Yeah. That Gen Z looks older than millennials.
- [19:28]
B
Yes.
- [19:29]
A
I don't necessarily buy that. This is what I think. I think that kids that are Gen Z have grown up with YouTube tutorials. They've grown up with Sephora. They know their angles, they know lighting. They're doing things that we didn't do until we were in our 20s, basically. Like, I didn't. I didn't know how to contour my face when I was 15.
- [19:48]
B
No. I just, like, learned, like, three years ago.
- [19:49]
A
Exactly, exactly. And we didn't have access to all. So I think doing things like contour and that makes you look older. Right. Because it's something that older people do. Like, when we were 15 and 16, we were just had, like, eyeliner on and lip gloss. Like, we didn't know what we were doing.
- [20:04]
B
Yeah, not at all. And too much blush. Like, I was just, like, in the too much blush era.
- [20:08]
A
I mean, I love. I'm like, you can never have too much blush. But yeah. So I think that that does make you look older when you're doing these, like, advanced makeup techniques. Because you don't look like a kid. You don't look like a teenager the way we did. Right.
- [20:21]
B
That's interesting. But you don't buy the Gen Z. I kind of believe it because.
- [20:25]
A
Why do you believe it?
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B
Well, I will meet women who are in their 20s, and then they will think they were older than me. Just. I just see it. But I. But you're right. It's nothing to do with their underlying skin.
- [20:35]
A
Right. Because they look. They look like adults.
- [20:38]
B
It's a whole aesthetic. And they're also wearing, like, more of like that kind of like tube toppy, big leather. I mean, it's this kind of grown up aesthetic. I think you're beautiful.
- [20:48]
A
Thank you.
- [20:48]
B
When did you know you were beautiful?
- [20:50]
A
Ooh, interesting. I think my mother affirmed it for me when I was very young. Both of my parents did. So when I was like a toddler, we would do this, like, call and response thing where she would say, like, what are you? And I would say, I'm special. So I think because my parents knew that they were raising a black girl in a predominantly white environment, they really went out of their way to tell me that I was beautiful, to tell me that I was smart, to tell me that I was special, because they knew that the world wouldn't necessarily agree with that. So I think from as. As I can remember, I always felt beautiful because my parents really affirmed that for me. And I also think, you know, I had black Barbie dolls, We had Essence magazine in the house. I was kind of surrounded by examples of black beauty. So that was really affirmed for me early on.
- [21:29]
B
In Pakistani culture, there's a lot of reverence for fairness. And so kind of growing up, you know, my parents instilled a lot of confidence in me, and I loved swimming and being outdoors, and I grew up in Indonesia, and so that was just part of my life. But I really thought beauty meant fairness as a child because that was kind of what I was programmed by aunts and grandmothers. Music really sticks with me from when I was young. Music or lyrics that I heard especially as, like in my early elementary years of people loving women that didn't look like the ideal Tribe called Quest. There was that fife says, I date girls. Brown, yellow, Puerto Rican and Haitian. You know that lyric when you look at it now, Instagram face is ethnically ambiguous.
- [22:16]
A
Yeah, it is.
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B
It is, you know, often a white face that has all these features from all over the world. So it has that. The South Asian eye, the kind of the Middle Eastern or Native American cheekbones, the African American lip, but the very Caucasian nose. So do you think that's a good thing, this melding of. Of beauty or.
- [22:40]
A
So I think in general, the melding of beauty, I think we all remember was it at that Time magazine cover where they talked about what people would look like? I think it was in like 2050. And it was just that, this idea. And I also have a mixed race, two children. I'm like, I'm a new mom. So I'm like, I have two kids now. Yes. I think that we all are becoming more and more mixed. And we're. I think that's just part of how we're evolving, which I think is a beautiful thing. But I do think it's important to celebrate features that are unique to certain cultures, like monoracial beauty. I think I personally feel very. I get like the ick when people say, like, oh, like, my husband's Turkish. So they'll be like, oh, you guys must have beautiful kids. Because like, oh, mixed race babies are so cute. And I'm like, that's actually so problematic to say for so many reasons. And it's because the assumption in that is that if we were both black, that the child wouldn't be beautiful or that if we were both of the same ethnicity, that that child wouldn't be beautiful. There's just like a lot of.
- [23:36]
B
I've never thought about that. The mixed race. The mixed race compliment is a dig to either race.
- [23:41]
A
Yes.
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B
On its own.
- [23:42]
A
Yes, I think so. And I also think the issue with. And I think we see this all the time in black culture. It's like black elements of black culture are appreciated on white women, but not on black women. So it's like nail art and long nails or laying down your edges or cornrows or lip liner or all of these things that when black women do it is seen as ghetto or it's seen as not high, certainly not high fashion. But then when white women do it, it's edgy and cool and it's chic. And this is the new trend.
- [24:10]
B
Right. I love wearing colors and patterns, like really, like, you know, over the top outfits. And people will sometimes say to me, oh, no, no, that looks too ethnic. And. But I think if a blonde woman were to wear that same outfit, it would not. It would look like style. But if I do it, it looks like on the nose somehow. But there are a lot of kind of implicit biases and, you know, in beauty. But I also think there's this desire to think the other thing is beautiful. I mean, when I moved from Asia to the US I was surprised by how many people thought, like, I was beautiful because I was dark, because I was naturally tan. I also think that, you know, as you grow up, you like, you lose people. Like, I lost my dad. And I'm so glad that I haven't like, changed any part of my face. Cause I like, look like my dad. And when I see look at myself in the mirror, I like, sometimes See my dad. And that's beautiful, you know?
- [25:05]
A
That's beautiful.
- [25:05]
B
You worked at Instagram for a while?
- [25:07]
A
Yes. A long time. Almost five years.
- [25:09]
B
And you Internet Vogue.
- [25:10]
A
Yes.
- [25:11]
B
So is Instagram the new vogue? Like, is it the arbiter of beauty?
- [25:16]
A
You know, it's so interesting. Instagram is so different depending on what you're into. Like, I look at my husband's Instagram or even my friend, and I'm like, what is your algorithm? Like, it's totally different.
- [25:24]
B
You know, what is your husband's Instagram?
- [25:26]
A
It's all pizza, sushi. It's a lot of, like, food. He loves to cook, and a lot of DJ sets and a lot of, like, construction and, like, gardening. It's just. It's all of his interests. Right. Like, he's never seeing anything that I'm seeing, and I'm never seeing what he's seeing, which is by design. Right. Like, the algorithm pulls you closer and closer to your interests. But, yes, I think that the power that magazines used to hold and that traditional media used to hold is kind of moot now because of Instagram, because there are people, there's so many creators and so many influencers that have way more reach than Vogue, you know, that have way more reach than MTV had even in its peak, you know, so the rules are definitely being rewritten.
- [26:07]
B
I am amazed by how we as a society are able to just agree on trends. It used to be in traditional fashion and, you know this much more than I do. But, you know, there be these seasonal fashion shows, and we are agreeing on the style and not just fashion style being set there, but what hair should look like, how we, you know, whether what eyebrows should look like. Everything was set in the kind of fashion ecosystem. I'm curious, like, one, can you just explain how things used to be set? And then how do we all agree now that, like, you know, skinny jeans are out, why jeans are in? Or now they're, you know, now they're reversed, or what kind of brow is it? The wildest version of this is that there are beauty standards for, like, women's grooming down there. Yeah. Or like, Brazilians are in. Bush is in, whatever it is.
- [26:55]
A
And it's just gonna keep going back and forth.
- [26:57]
B
And how do we as a society concur on Instagram face or anything else?
- [27:02]
A
So I have two answers to that, I think. One, the. And I'll speak about it from a beauty perspective. There are people that still set trends in beauty from the Runway that trickle down into drugstores. So I think about someone like Pat McGrath, who does the makeup for a lot of the, like, biggest shows on the Paris Fashion Week calendar and also a little bit in Milan. But when she does something, when she does, like, a blush placement that's a little bit different, everyone in the beauty world pays attention. All of the makeup artists pay attention. And then you're gonna see it on, I don't know, know, Kylie Jenner at. On. On the red carpet, and then girls are going to be redoing that tutorial at home. So there is. I think there are still some makeup artists that have the power to create a trend and have it, like, trickle down.
- [27:42]
B
Yeah, it's like the Ronald Reagan economics equivalent.
- [27:46]
A
Exactly.
- [27:47]
B
Trickle down.
- [27:47]
A
Trickle down.
- [27:48]
B
Trickle down. Blush placement.
- [27:49]
A
Blush placement, yes. And I think a lot of people remember that scene from Devil Wears Prada where, you know, she goes through the whole thing about this is cerulean blue. So I think. Yes, I think. I think runways, because a lot of people in fashion and in beauty pay attention to the runways. I certainly pay attention to it. I think that does trickle down in what we see in every day. But I agree, the power structure has been totally reversed. And I think a lot of times people that are doing makeup for runways are actually looking on Instagram. They're seeing what the girls are doing on Instagram. I think about Donnie Davey. I interviewed her back in 2020 when she had just wrapped the first season of Euphoria, and she. You remember Euphoria Makeup was, like, such a big deal. She's a make artist for Euphoria, and she talked about.
- [28:31]
B
How would you describe Euphoria makeup for people who haven't seen it?
- [28:34]
A
Yes. Bright colors on the eye, lots of kind of graphic liner. But it would be like, you know, blue eyeliner or, like yellow eyeliner or, like, adding sparkles, like under your eyes or just really going for it.
- [28:45]
B
Yeah.
- [28:45]
A
But she talked about her process for creating that makeup was looking at, like, young girls on Instagram and seeing what they were doing with their makeup and seeing what girls in high school were doing. And then she brought that to, you know, the HBO screen.
- [28:56]
B
Right.
- [28:57]
A
So there is this kind of, like, loop that's happening. But back to your earlier question about how do we all collectively agree on these things? Because I had a part two to that pendulum swinging. Like a pendulum swings one way and then another way. So it's like baggy jeans, skinny jeans, Brazilian waxes, full bush. Like, there are these, like, pendulum. We see it in politics. Right. Conservatism, liberal. Yeah. So I think that's a lot of what we're seeing in terms of, like, beauty. So. Right. Like, I think there was this whole, like, bbl curvy era where everyone wanted to be super curvy and women were getting lots of surgery to be more curvy. And now we've seen the pendulum swing completely the other way to Ozempic super skinny double double zero. Right. Which we saw in the 90s. So I think that a lot of it is like pendulum swinging. So it's like if thick eyebrows are in now, then thin eyebrows are gonna be in next. Like, it just keeps going back and forth.
- [29:51]
B
That is like what's out is suddenly in. Yes, that is a. And is that commerce? Is that the desire to sell us stuff, which is like, oh, no, we need to sell them a new run of jeans. So now we got to bring them back.
- [30:02]
A
Capitalism. And it's like, skinny jeans are back, but they're not the skinny jeans that you used to have. Those aren't we, you know, we've changed the pockets a little bit and like, this is the new skinny jean that you need to have.
- [30:12]
B
And how should we consume in this environment?
- [30:14]
A
I mean, I don't even believe. I don't believe in participating in trends. Like, I, I try to do what I like completely independent of what's happening in the trend cycle. I think that it's kind of like just a rat race if you're just always. And I think the people that have the best style. Yeah, there, there's like a consistency, there's like a uniqueness. You know, they're not like falling victim to whatever the algorithm says they should be wearing.
- [30:36]
B
Totally. Like, I feel like no matter what's in, I'll always be like, mob wife aesthetic.
- [30:40]
A
Yes. That's great.
- [30:41]
B
That's the vibe.
- [30:42]
A
Right? And it's like you, you were mob wife aesthetic before it even had a name.
- [30:45]
B
So your, your theory of this is that, okay, there's a bit of top down, trickle down, there's increasingly more bottom up, where, you know, people at the top are paying attention to what the kids are doing, what the influencers are doing, and then putting it back into the cycle. And then the main shift is this kind of like pendulum.
- [31:05]
A
Pendulum.
- [31:06]
B
Left, right, left, right.
- [31:07]
A
Yes.
- [31:07]
B
Whatever it is. So what's in right now? What is trendy right now? I know you don't participate, but, well.
- [31:13]
A
The latest beauty trend that everyone's talking about, at least in, like, makeup artists and beauty circles, is no lash looks so full glam, but without any mascara or added lashes.
- [31:23]
B
But you still keep your lashes. No one's taking those off.
- [31:26]
A
You still keep your lashes, but you don't enhance them. So it's like. It's like this full makeup look. And I think for so long, everyone had false lashes, big lashes, big, fluffy lashes. Now the trend is no lash.
- [31:39]
B
Okay.
- [31:40]
A
Which I personally don't agree with.
- [31:42]
B
Yeah, I was very worried that, like, we're supposed to remove our lashes. Like, do not remove your lashes. If you're listening to this or watching this. Yeah, I don't love that either. I love lashes. Okay. So no lash. Anything else that's in. Thin brows are supposed to be back.
- [31:55]
A
Then they are coming back. Thin brows are definitely coming back. I do think that. I mean, lip liner has been. I mean, for black and brown communities, lip liner has always been a thing. But I think we see, like, more and more, like, lip liner, lip combos. I think the days of just, like, putting on just, like, the gloss are slowly fading away.
- [32:13]
B
Okay. So the no makeup makeup aesthetic is going away a little bit or that.
- [32:18]
A
You know, it's so interesting. Like, the pendulum, again with that has swung so much. Like, I remember early, like, glossier days. Yeah, that was like. That was it. Like, you know, you wanted to just be like, no makeup makeup. And then I think it went the other way where people really wanted full glam. Especially after the pandemic, people really wanted to, like, do makeup. But then I do see, like, we're kind of going back to the more, like, minimal. Clean girl aesthetic is the new name they've given it, you know, popularized by Hailey Bieber. So I mean, I love a clean girl aesthetic because it focuses on skin, and I think skin is always just so beautiful, and we don't need to, like, put so much to cover it up. So I think that's always, like. I don't know if that's, like, a trend. Right, right. That's like, a forever beautiful thing.
- [32:57]
B
That is a forever beautiful thing. But then there's the, like, Eva Mendes forever mob wife, which I kind of love that.
- [33:02]
A
No, I love that too.
- [33:03]
B
What's the next beauty shift, you think? So Clean girl aesthetic is the thing right now.
- [33:07]
A
I think that people are going to pare down their skincare routines. I think we've. I think we've pushed it as far as we can push it in terms of people just doing the absolute most having, like, 10 steps. I think people really want to go back to simplicity. They just want a few things. I know you said your dermatologist is always telling you, like, cut back.
- [33:23]
B
Yeah.
- [33:24]
A
And all dermatologists will agree like people are just doing entirely too much.
- [33:28]
B
Yeah. Less is more.
- [33:29]
A
So I think we're going to see a lot more like multi use products. Right. Like a moisturizer that also has some properties that you'd want in a serum that maybe you can even use under your eyes. Like I think people are going to want to have less products and do less steps.
- [33:43]
B
Okay. I have so many dumb questions like what is the difference between a serum and a moisturizer? We're going to get to that. There are some things that I just think are scammy. Like one is parabens. Like I, I think parabens were created as a way to tell me something doesn't have parab. Because when I go I have gone to Target and like looked at all the shampoos.
- [33:59]
A
Yeah.
- [33:59]
B
And very few of them have parabens at all, right?
- [34:01]
A
Yes, absolutely. I think that there, there was like that clean skin care movement that like or clean beauty movement that basically fear mongered and like made everyone think that everything we used was like killing us. And most things are paraben free.
- [34:15]
B
Yeah, yeah. That's just a marketing. A little bit of a bamboozle.
- [34:19]
A
A little bit. A little bit. I mean and then some. But also I have to say because there's so much nuance in all of this. Some parabens are good and they help products be sheltered, stable. So there was also an instance where like a lot of these like super clean like indie beauty brands that were like using like no parabens, no preservatives, nothing. People were breaking out horribly because the products weren't shelf stable. And you know you could, once you open them you had like I don't know, six weeks to use it or three months to use it.
- [34:42]
B
Yeah, that's like a double commercial boom because they're like, they're selling it to you because they have no parabens. Then you have to replenish it in six weeks. Like capitalism is screwing us every minute.
- [34:50]
A
I think for shampoo it's good to look for sulfate free.
- [34:52]
B
Okay, I want to do a quick round of apple. What I think is it, I want to do basically do we splurge, substitute or skip? Okay, packaged hair oils is a splurge, coconut oil is a substitute or do you just skip it altogether?
- [35:06]
A
I think you can do your own hair oil mask. I don't know if coconut oil is the best. Like I think neem oil is really great for your hair. Almond oil, a lot of things that they use in like, ayurvedic beauty. But, yeah, I mean, most of these, like, fancy, like, oils are. You can just buy them. So dupe substitute.
- [35:24]
B
Okay, great. Lymphatic drainage versus rubbing yourself with a loofah versus doing nothing at all.
- [35:29]
A
I love lymphatic drainage. I do think you can do, like, dry brushing at home. I'm like, I don't feel confident that I know where, like, the lymph spots are. Like, I've, like, watched tutorials to, like, drain the lymph. So when I go to get it done, it feels so good, and it's so relaxing. So, like, I'm like, okay, leave that to the professionals.
- [35:45]
B
Okay, Splurge. Got it. Ingestible collagen versus drinking broth versus just eating what you eat.
- [35:53]
A
I don't do any of that. But ingestible collagen has been proven to work. There's even ingestible retinol, which I've learned about recently. Yeah. Which has been proven to work. But I think whenever you can get something from a direct food source, that's always better than. So I think, like, broth. If you can get, like, good animal broth in, then that's great for collagen.
- [36:11]
B
Okay, so just eating healthy.
- [36:13]
A
Yes.
- [36:14]
B
Okay. Botox versus face yoga. No talks.
- [36:17]
A
Okay. I love face yoga, and I've been doing it recently, and it really does help to strengthen the muscles in your face. Like.
- [36:23]
B
Okay.
- [36:24]
A
You don't realize how many muscles you have in your face. So, yes, you can strengthen the muscles in your face, and that kind of, like, helps with the scaffolding, but it's not a Botox substitute.
- [36:32]
B
Can you show us your best face yoga move?
- [36:35]
A
Ooh. Okay. I like doing this one because it kind of, like, helps to, like. Yeah, it, like, basically helps to lift the face and, like, strengthen the cheekbones.
- [36:44]
B
Okay. This is, like, the downward dog of face yoga.
- [36:47]
A
There's also, like, this where you, like, kiss you basically. I'm like, I hope people are watching the YouTube. You basically, like, like, almost, like, blow out and kiss. And that helps to strengthen.
- [36:58]
B
Okay.
- [36:59]
A
Because you kind of get these, like, wrinkles. Not wrinkles, but, like, bands in your neck.
- [37:02]
B
Yeah.
- [37:03]
A
So that helps with that.
- [37:04]
B
So the first one we were doing for people listening is that you're basically starting at your jawline, your chin, and rubbing up along to your ears. Yes, that's the first. That's a downward dog move. And then the second move was you're lifting up. We're lifting up our neck.
- [37:17]
A
So chin into the air and then, like, blowing out.
- [37:19]
B
Blowing and kissing.
- [37:20]
A
Yeah.
- [37:21]
B
Okay. Okay, good. And that gets rid of these lines?
- [37:25]
A
Yes, it basically helps to strengthen those lines.
- [37:27]
B
They should just add 10 minutes of face yoga to the end of every yoga class, I think.
- [37:30]
A
Oh, that would be a really fab idea. That may be a franchise.
- [37:33]
B
Should we start this?
- [37:34]
A
Yeah, I feel like we have to.
- [37:35]
B
Stop recording and do that. Do skincare and beauty products actually expire? The answer is yes, but the timer really starts ticking when you open the bottle. I'm Naeem Araza, host of Smart Girl Dumb Questions, and this is a sponsored Dumb Question brought to you by Hi bb. So I get all this swag and samples in my life and I hoard those products for a rainy day. Yeah, it turns out they don't last forever. Ingredients break down and air, light, bacteria all accelerates that process. So as a disclaimer, you should check your own dates on your specific products. But as a general rule of thumb, mascara lasts about three to six months once you open it. Anything after that and you might be flirting with an eye infection. When it comes to foundation, that's more like six to 12 months. And if it starts to separate or smell weird, it's time to say bye, baby. Lipstick, meanwhile, is more like a year. And if it starts to drag or smell like a crayon, you should draw a tombstone and sunscreen. This one is really important. It has an expiry date and you should check it because expired SPF is not going to protect you. But the bigger issue isn't about when. When products expire. It's about why we buy so much stuff and have so much stuff that we do not need. That's why I like what hi BBB is doing. They make it easy to filter through the process and identify just those products that you actually need. Go to hibb.com today and take the quiz to find out what products you want to splurge on, substitute, or skip. So I want to do a little bit of a lightning round to ask all my dumb questions to you because I really don't know enough. I don't know enough. Okay, Fuck, marry, kill.
- [39:09]
A
Okay.
- [39:10]
B
Ooh, skincare, body care, makeup.
- [39:15]
A
Well, you have to kill makeup.
- [39:17]
B
You have to kill makeup.
- [39:18]
A
But skincare and body care aren't those kind of one and the same. Taking care of the skin on your body.
- [39:22]
B
Okay, fine. Skin, body care, makeup and hair care.
- [39:25]
A
Okay, Kill makeup still. Okay, I guess fuck hair care and marry skincare.
- [39:34]
B
Marry skincare.
- [39:35]
A
I think skincare. Like I gave birth and did my full skincare routine. Like I need to do skincare, like, right after giving birth, like, in the hospital had, like, my. Like, my moisturizer that makes me feel good. Like my facial mist. Like, I think skincare just. I think it's just so important. Yeah. I couldn't imagine participating in beauty without skincare.
- [39:54]
B
So for me, it might be hair care. I was 10 minutes late to my ACL surgery because I was like. I was like, Dyson ing my hair, air wrapping my hair. But I had the next surgeon, so I'm like, you never know who you're gonna meet in that waiting room. Never know.
- [40:05]
A
You never know.
- [40:06]
B
I love that you had a baby and then put on skincare.
- [40:09]
A
Yes, absolutely.
- [40:10]
B
Do you put skincare on the baby as well?
- [40:12]
A
No, babies can't really do anything fun. I mean, petroleum jelly. That's it. That's it.
- [40:16]
B
Oh, Vaseline.
- [40:17]
A
Yes.
- [40:17]
B
That's beauty care. Okay, what is the right order of skincare? Well, you said 10 steps. Is 10 steps the right number?
- [40:24]
A
No, no. So I think let's do it for daytime cleanser, which is optional in the morning. Like, I don't cleanse my face in the morning because I find it to be too drying. But in general, you want to cleanse your skin at least once a day. I do double cleansing at night, but cleanser first. And that just, like, primes the canvas, right? That's like, you have to just get dirt, debris, sunscreen, oils, everything off. Then toner. Now toner, I think.
- [40:55]
B
What is toner? What is toner? Toner seems like a scam.
- [40:58]
A
The toners of the past were like astringents. Like, they were like, they would kind of strip your skin. They were like, to, like, clean your skin again. Now new toners are more like essences. So it's like kind of like a sip of water for your skin. They're like hydrating liquids that kind of like, prime your skin to receive serum and moisturizer.
- [41:16]
B
Okay. Did they retire all the old astringent toners? Are they still out there?
- [41:20]
A
I think they're still out there. Like, I think you can find, like, Stridex swipes. If you're, like, looking for them.
- [41:25]
B
We're looking, like, on a bottle. How do we know if it's good? New toner versus old toner.
- [41:29]
A
So the older toner will have, like, alcohol as, like, pretty high up in the ingredient list. And more of the new toners. You'll see, like, aloe vera, like, hydrating. They're rice water toners. Now, like, that's very Asian.
- [41:40]
B
Like, I lived in Vietnam for a while. And a lot of rice water.
- [41:43]
A
Yes, yes, yes. Essences are, like, directly. We just took that from Asian beauty culture.
- [41:48]
B
Okay.
- [41:49]
A
So, yeah, most toners are more kind of like essences now.
- [41:51]
B
Okay. Except cleanse tone.
- [41:53]
A
Yes. Exfoliate. I'd say, two to three times a week. So that can be a chemic chemical exfoliant or a physical exfoliant. I like a chemical exfoliant. So that's like an aha or bha. Like, the Paula's Choice BHA exfoliant, I think is, like, brilliant and, like, it makes everyone's skin look so good. And then you're going to go in with a serum. So that can be like hyaluronic acid niacinamide. The serum is usually used to treat something. So, like, if you have dark spots, then your serum, you need a serum that targets dark spots. If you have. If your skin's really dry, you're going to use, like, a hyaluronic serum that's going to, like, put moisture back into the skin. And then you seal everything with a moisturizer. Yeah. Okay.
- [42:29]
B
And then that's the final.
- [42:31]
A
And then. Yes, and then, of course, sunscreen and sunscreen.
- [42:33]
B
Yes, always sunscreen. So you. So you did cleanse tone sometimes exfoliate.
- [42:39]
A
Yes, And I kind of like, mixed up daytime and nighttime. I do exfoliation at nighttime because that can make your skin more sensitive to the sun.
- [42:45]
B
Okay, so daytime is cleanse tone, serum, moisturizer, sunscreen.
- [42:49]
A
Sunscreen, yeah.
- [42:50]
B
Okay, great. And now give us the nighttime. You take it off.
- [42:53]
A
I do double cleansing. So I do an oil cleanser because I have to get my makeup off. And then I go in with a foam cleanser. Then I do the exfoliant, so the liquid exfoliant and then a serum. So it could be a vitamin C serum. It could be a serum with, like, transit transexamic acid in it, which is good for, like, hyperpigmentation. Transamic acid.
- [43:13]
B
Okay.
- [43:13]
A
Yes. Or like licorice root.
- [43:15]
B
Okay.
- [43:16]
A
Or a bakuchi oil. Or if you're using retinol, you would do your retinol then. And then you do the moisturizer.
- [43:21]
B
Okay, this is very helpful. Essence serum, creams, et cetera. Like, what is the difference? Is it in the formulation of the product? Is it a vibe?
- [43:31]
A
You want to layer your products from, like, thinnest to thickest. I think that's really helpful.
- [43:35]
B
That's super helpful.
- [43:35]
A
Yes. Thinnest to thickest. I did skip eye cream because I don't want people to think you need eye cream. I Personally love an eye cream.
- [43:43]
B
You don't need eye cream.
- [43:44]
A
You don't.
- [43:44]
B
It's not essential is eye cream. I mean, it's so funny that it's like a different cream for your eyes. It just seems like capitalism gone rogue. But I'm also like, is eye cream real or is this $120 of hope in a J?
- [43:55]
A
It's definitely hope in a jar. But the skin around your eyes is more sensitive. So a lot of products that you have for your face, you really can't use around your eyes or it's gonna cause irritation. And I just. I love, like, a good, like, hydrating eye cream. I think also eye cream with caffeine in it is really great if you have, like, bags or, like, puffiness. So a lot of people will see, like, huge differences in the puffiness under their eyes when they use an eye cream with caffeine in it.
- [44:19]
B
How much of what we put on the face you said start from than it's to thickest. How much of what we put on the face actually penetrates the skin? And how much of it is just.
- [44:28]
A
Like, sitting on top?
- [44:30]
B
Sitting on top, making us feel fancy.
- [44:32]
A
So ideally, all of your skincare is penetrating the skin. I don't have the exact scientific answer, but the essences that I mentioned, a lot of people will do, like a spray on essence or toner too. The idea is that damp skin receives products better. Okay, so like, when you get out of the shower, when you put on moisturizer or lotion out of the shower, that's going to lift. Like, keep your skin hydrated for so much longer than if you put it on dry skin.
- [44:55]
B
Okay.
- [44:56]
A
So even when doing skincare, like, if I, like, waste too much time in between skincare steps, I re spritz with, like, a water to like, make my skin damp to receive the skincare exfoliation.
- [45:06]
B
I wanted to ask you about, are we like, snakes with so much skin to shed? Like, what is happening with exfoliation? Because I do think that, like, especially if you're using retinol, et cetera, which I use, I use tretinoin three times a week.
- [45:20]
A
Okay, great.
- [45:20]
B
Skin that's exfoliating. So then I don't need to exfoliate?
- [45:25]
A
No, no, no. Your tretinoin has exfoliants in it. So because I'm breastfeeding now, I can't use retinol, so I've gotta exfoliate other ways. But I think the rate at which your skin's cells regenerate slows as you age. That's why, like, kids don't need to use retinol or like exfoliate.
- [45:43]
B
Yeah. Although you said 8 year olds are using it so now, unfortunately.
- [45:47]
A
But yes, as we get process, you just like, need to like, speed up the cell turnover.
- [45:52]
B
Okay. How is acid good for your face? This is like wild to me.
- [45:56]
A
I mean, it sounds so scary, right? Like lactic acid, glycolic acid.
- [46:01]
B
I don't put anything that has acid on it, on my face, except for retinol because the doctor told me to do it.
- [46:06]
A
Chemicals are a part of life. Yeah, acid, I agree it's a scary name, but it just, it just means that it's kind of helping to take away dead skin.
- [46:16]
B
Okay. Okay. Still scary. Yeah.
- [46:19]
A
Well, you know what? I love that you're so close with your dermatologist. One of the things that I always do and I always tell people to do when you go to your dermatologist, bring the skincare you're using, like, show them, like, I'm using this at night, I'm using this in the morning. And they'll tell you, you can stop wasting your time with this. Doing this and this together is too much. Right. I think that even if you don't have good insurance, like, how much is like a well visit for like a dermatologist? Like 100 something dollars. Yeah.
- [46:42]
B
But Amanda Doyle, my dermatologist in New York, she's fantastic. And the first time I went in to see her and I was using like skinceuticals, C Ferelic and you know, three different, like a serum and some kind of like.
- [46:54]
A
Yeah.
- [46:54]
B
Drunk elephant mask.
- [46:55]
A
Right.
- [46:56]
B
And she's like, can you just put all of this away? Just use a sulfur face wash. Love that. And just use retinol a few times a week and azelaic acid a few times a week.
- [47:06]
A
Okay. Azelaic acid. Okay.
- [47:07]
B
So those, that would help with dark spots is azelaic acid. And then retinol is for exfoliation and keeping it young.
- [47:12]
A
And you use a moisturizer, I'm assuming.
- [47:14]
B
And then she was like, cerave moisturizer is fine.
- [47:16]
A
Dermatologists love Cerave. And Elta for sunscreen. They love that too.
- [47:21]
B
That's it. That was it. So she basically saved me a ton of money.
- [47:23]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [47:24]
B
Thank you, Amanda Doyle. Okay. Is Botox really preventative?
- [47:29]
A
I think that that is total bs. I'm like, so against this, like, myth that you can like, the earlier you start doing Botox, the less wrinkles you're gonna have. I mean, everything's an industry. Everything is run by capitalism. So it's like, in your 20s, are you really going to start this, like, maintenance where you have to get. Get Botox every, what, three months? Every six months?
- [47:50]
B
Like, that's just, like, too late for that.
- [47:52]
A
But it's just, like, a crazy thing, I think, to integrate into your routine, I think. But, and, and for me, it hasn't made sense yet. Yeah. But I do think that when I see, like, wrinkles at rest, like, when my face is like, we both touched.
- [48:08]
B
Our face in that moment.
- [48:09]
A
Yes. Then I think I will explore it. I'm not against it, but I'm also. I just. I just don't.
- [48:18]
B
Yeah.
- [48:18]
A
I don't buy into this. And, and the. The thinking is that once you paralyze the muscle, then you don't allow it to, like, crease and then create wrinkles.
- [48:29]
B
Right. A lot of people. Now, I was just talking to a friend of mine, and she's like, no, I'm working on not moving my face. And so I facetimed her and was trying to tell her, like, crazy stories to see if she would move her face. But she was very good at holding her face.
- [48:42]
A
I think that's. I mean, props to your friend. Do your thing. I don't know, it just kind of makes me sad that people are, like, restricting their smiles and facial movements so that they don't have, like, laugh lines. Like, laugh lines are beautiful. I also just want my face to convey emotion. Like, I don't want to be frozen.
- [49:00]
B
And also to, like, to show a bit of your, like, wisdom and what you've lived. But in general, because I started off as a documentary filmmaker, I love seeing people that are expressive. And even what we do. Right. Hosting shows, you need to be expressive. That carries through in a voice. That definitely carries through on a screen. And when someone tells you they're so excited, but their eyebrows are just, like, on level. You're like, are you really excited? Are you lying to me? And that is not a judgment on Botox at all. In fact, I've recently become really interested in the idea of Botox down here to, like, snatch your jawline because of Botox. Yes. That is supposed to paralyze your.
- [49:35]
A
Yes. A lot of people are doing that.
- [49:37]
B
But that scares me. It's like, they say a word like acid or paralyzed, and I'm like, I will not be doing this, Dr. Doyle.
- [49:43]
A
Right. Or the fact that Botox is, like, called neurotoxin. Right.
- [49:46]
B
Yeah. Also, I think if you can't do it when you're pregnant, it's kind of weird that we do it all the time. I'm like, it can't be good for our DNA. So generally in life, like, I don't really drink a lot. I don't do. So I'm generally like, if you tell me you can't do it when you're.
- [49:57]
A
Pregnant or breastfeeding, then you don't like to do it.
- [49:59]
B
I'm a little bit afraid of what it means for my cells.
- [50:02]
A
Yeah.
- [50:02]
B
Just because I haven't yet had a baby.
- [50:04]
A
Not drinking puts you so ahead of the game in terms of skin care. I mean, every single doctor dermatologist, everyone will tell you that drinking is just. Just black and white, categorically bad for us.
- [50:13]
B
So how young is too young for Botox in your estimation?
- [50:17]
A
Oh, gosh. I mean, that's so. It's so personal, you know, it's like, I'm. I'm 35 and I'm saying that, oh, I. I'm not gonna do it because I don't have wrinkles at rest. But there are 35 year olds that do have wrinkles at rest.
- [50:27]
B
And, like, so wrinkles at rest is.
- [50:28]
A
The test for me. Yeah, for me. Some people just do it because they, like, want that, like, super snatched. Like, they like the expressionless. Like, they like that aesthetically. And, like, if that's you, then go for it. It's just not for me.
- [50:41]
B
Yeah, that's the Gio Tolentino, Klonopin Jeff set to Coachella.
- [50:46]
A
Look.
- [50:46]
B
Okay, expensive products. Do they actually use better science, or am I just paying for a brand? A glass bottle and a Kardashians paycheck.
- [50:55]
A
You're definitely paying for a brand. The glass bottle. You're helping to pay the rent at their flagship store. Right? Like, all of that goes into paying a brand. That being said, a lot of luxury brands do proprietary research and have, like, proprietary ingredients. So, like, if you're looking at, like, La Mer or Shiseido, I think I love Shiseido skin care. I got to go to see where they make all of the skincare one they'll be working on. Like a. Like an actual.
- [51:20]
B
In Japan.
- [51:20]
A
Yeah, in Japan, it was like an influencer trip, but they basically brought us to see where the skincare is made. And, like, these are real scientists that wake up every single day figuring out how do we, like, get this, like, emulsification down for the moisturizer? Like, how do we harvest this, like, green algae that grows in this pond that, like, Shiseido owns and, like, get it into our eye cream when Big, big companies have money for R and D. Right? So research and development.
- [51:46]
B
Yeah, they're like pharmaceutical companies kind of.
- [51:49]
A
Yeah, they're, they're huge. So that is like very real, like R and D. Like whenever you see something that's patented, like to get a patent or to have clinical results, meaning like something's been clinically tested, it's totally controlled, third party, like they're not doing the research, they're having someone use the skincare. And then after 21 days, 45 days, 90 days, whatever the claim is, is they're actually able to see visible results in the skin.
- [52:12]
B
So that means something clinically tested, dermatologically tested, or dermatologically approved.
- [52:17]
A
Dermatologist approved doesn't mean anything. Well, it just means you got a dermatologist to look at it and say like, okay, that's okay.
- [52:22]
B
So clinically tested. Yes, is what you're looking for and is that regulated by like the FDA or.
- [52:27]
A
It's. I don't know what the, like, governing body is, but it's, it's always has to be third party independent. But what a lot of skincare brands do is they'll say, say ingredients are clinically proven. So like they'll, you, they'll use vitamin C in something and they'll say clinically proven. But that's because vitamin C has been clinically proven, not necessarily their, their product. Product.
- [52:45]
B
So how do we know you.
- [52:47]
A
You would really have to like, look into the fine print. And actually even on Sephora, a lot of websites, you can see like there's a little asterisk next to clinically proven. And you can like go and like see what the clinical trial was to.
- [52:57]
B
Be like an investigative journalist.
- [52:58]
A
Unfortunately, unfortunately, there is a great resource that Paula's Choice has. It's called the ingredient dictionary.
- [53:03]
B
Okay.
- [53:04]
A
And you can basically go. It's like on the Paula's Choice website, if you just like Paula's Choice ingredient dictionary. And you can look up basically like any skincare, it doesn't have to be Paula's Choice. Put it in and it'll break down what the ingredients are. And if they're good for you, bad for you, you can like look up individual ingredients. So you can be like, oh, my skin really likes niacinamide. And then you can like learn what niacinamide does. So I'm always like, you kind of do have to be a little bit of an investigative journalist.
- [53:27]
B
That's true. Everything seems like it's better if it's European. Like I buy my, I like to Buy my sunscreen. Except for the Ulta that's made here, I think, but sunscreen Europe or Asia? Or Asia, Japan and Korea. Better everything?
- [53:40]
A
Pretty much Better everything?
- [53:41]
B
Yeah, better everything. How come they have better everything?
- [53:43]
A
I feel like they're really living in the future. And I feel like the thing that's so impressive about Korean skincare is that it's super effective and it doesn't have to be super expensive. I think that there's so much innovation and research happening in Korea around skincare that basically, like, the jig is up. Like, it doesn't have to be in $100 cream to drive results. So they've like really figured out whether it's like snail mucin or they've really figured out how to use these specific ingredients to get that perfect glass skin that all the K pop stars have.
- [54:09]
B
What is the best glass? I need a glass skin mask. I have not been able to find one. Will you recommend one?
- [54:14]
A
Ooh, I like the biologique Recherche Vivant mask. It smells terrible, but it makes your skin look really good.
- [54:20]
B
I like the poreless. I do the hanicure. You know, the one that makes you look like an 85 year old before you take it off.
- [54:24]
A
I kind of like it. I've seen it online.
- [54:26]
B
Okay, what are the newest things that you are interested in? I've heard peptides and I've heard salmon sperm DNA. We need to now answer for the people who want salmon sperm DNA.
- [54:34]
A
Oh, my gosh. I actually just got, of course, from Korea. The company's called Medicube. I just got my first salmon sperm moisturizer. I haven't tried it yet, but apparently it's like very rich in different omega threes the same way. Salmon's good for us to eat.
- [54:47]
B
Do you think they get the sperm from the salmon?
- [54:48]
A
Oh, gosh, I do not know.
- [54:50]
B
There's like an IVF salmon facility.
- [54:52]
A
I do not know.
- [54:53]
B
So you put the salmon sperm on.
- [54:55]
A
Yeah, it's like in these little capsules that are in the moisturizer. I'll report back.
- [55:00]
B
Okay, please do. Salmon spur.
- [55:02]
A
Yes. Follow me, Follow me to see when I do that review how the subject.
- [55:06]
B
Of capitalism is amazing that, like, it's always like the people who need at least who get the freest. Like, I can't over the course of time, like, it's like as I've gotten more successful, I'm being sent more free stuff.
- [55:18]
A
Right, well, and that's not on accident, right, because essentially they're using you for marketing.
- [55:24]
B
Yeah. So Trickle down.
- [55:25]
A
Yes. So, like, I'm, like, so flattered. Like, oh, like, La Mer sent me all of the skincare, but it's really that they want me to post it and share it with my followers. And I think that also the nature of, like, advertising and targeting has changed so much that it's, like, really hard to know, like, to reach, like, true skincare enthusiasts. Like, right. They know if people are following me at Brooke Devart or following me at Naked Beauty Planet.
- [55:43]
B
Yeah.
- [55:44]
A
That they are interested in skincare. So it's a better shortcut for brands to send it to me so that I talk about it versus trying to target those.
- [55:52]
B
I want to ask you, like, two last questions. One is, you are someone who's kind of come up and seen this whole world of beauty from every vantage point, which I think is fantastic. You're obviously extremely intelligent, like, very well educated, informed, investigative in how you approach this stuff. And now you're a mom.
- [56:09]
A
Yes.
- [56:09]
B
Of a baby girl.
- [56:11]
A
Yes.
- [56:11]
B
What's her name?
- [56:12]
A
How old is she? She's. Her name is Jade, and she's four months old. Okay.
- [56:16]
B
And you did this Instagram detox recently?
- [56:18]
A
Yes. Oh, my gosh. That was. That's. I did it when I gave birth because I think a lot of times for moms that are listening to this, like, the. The midnight scroll, like, the breastfeeding doom scroll is, like, so real. And I had it with my first. Like, that's just when you're breastfeeding in the middle of the night from, like, 2:00am, 5:00am, like, all you're gonna do is just, like, be on your phone. And I was like, I don't want that. I want to read a book or just maybe do nothing and just, like, be in silence and be present with myself. I realized how much much clutter I had in my mind. Like, just all of these apps, it's like you're just being fed and served other people's opinions and buy this, and you should think this way, and if you're doing this, you're doing it wrong. And it's like, it's. It's a lot.
- [56:59]
B
Yeah.
- [56:59]
A
And so I just kind of, like, shut it all down, deleted all of my social apps, and just enjoyed easing into motherhood for those first six weeks.
- [57:06]
B
But now you're back in the retox of Instagram.
- [57:08]
A
Yes, I'm back.
- [57:09]
B
The Red dogs. But how. How did that period, giving birth, putting on your skincare, putting away your Instagram, make you come back to naked beauty and your work in a different way?
- [57:20]
A
Yeah. I mean, I think, again, it was this, like, quieting of my mind, and I think it was also understanding. Like, you can get so disconnected from your own tastes and your own opinions because you're ingesting so many other people's opinions and tastes. And it was kind of just like remembering, like, I know what I want to do. I know the kind of content that I want to see. I don't need any, like, proxy or, like, I don't need to see what someone else did to save it as, like, inspiration for me to do my own thing. Like, I kind of know what I want to do. And when it came to Naked Beauty, I really, really. In that time that I didn't have, social media podcasts really were my lifeline. There's just this intimacy to podcasts that I really felt in the absence of everything else.
- [58:01]
B
I love that. And now Naked Beauty, you know, it's a podcast, a huge enterprise. You've left your work to pursue this full time. You're now more than a year into.
- [58:09]
A
Yes, more than a year. And I launched a fragrance.
- [58:11]
B
You have a fragrance.
- [58:12]
A
The Naked Beauty fragrance, which is Bergam neroli, orange blossom, green tea, sandalwood. I loved the experience of making a fragrance. It's like this very fresh citrus, but also has, like, woody vibes. It was inspired actually by moving to la. I was having a matcha in our outdoor area, sitting under an orange blossom tree, and I was like, I want to bottle this feeling of, like, calmness.
- [58:34]
B
You know, that was such an LA vibe.
- [58:36]
A
But I was like, this is my new life.
- [58:37]
B
She's a New York girly.
- [58:38]
A
Who? I'm a New York girl.
- [58:39]
B
It's very. It's very light, very fresh. And I always wonder because, like, you know, I was just interviewing Kenji Lopez all. And this idea that food tastes different to everybody based on your experience. I'm like, I smelled it. And I was like, I wonder if it smells to me like it smells to Brooke, or we'll never know or it definitely won't smell the same on us.
- [58:56]
A
Yes, Yes. I have ISO E super in it, which is a. Basically, it's like a synthetic fragrance compound that smells different on everyone, depending on their body chemistry.
- [59:05]
B
Love it.
- [59:05]
A
For people to enjoy Naked Beauty, the.
- [59:07]
B
Fragrance by Brooke devart.
- [59:08]
A
Okay.
- [59:09]
B
All the things you were so clever about, so wise about. What are you dumb about? This is my last question for every guest.
- [59:14]
A
Ooh, what am I dumb about?
- [59:16]
B
What's a dumb question you have that we could go and help answer?
- [59:20]
A
Ooh, I'd say a lot of like architecture and like home type things. Like my husband is so in. We've, you know, we moved to la, we did this full renovation and sometimes I'll like ask him things and he's like, like, that's like not how. What if you ask? I don't know, I'd be like, oh, can we like, you know, build a balcony off of. And he's like, no, because you need to have the structure to support. Like, he understands it all and I don't. So I, I feel like I find myself asking less and less about it because I'm like, I just don't even know.
- [59:51]
B
Like, I will find out. We'll get. Neil Degrasse Tyson asked a question about construction. So I went and asked a construction worker, Brandon Hernandez, who I found like on the streets in New York this astrophysicist question. And like it had tons of physics in the answer. So I'm gonna find out because. Yeah, why can you. Sometimes it's like, sometimes you can take out a wall, sometimes you can't.
- [60:09]
A
Exactly.
- [60:09]
B
How do they know?
- [60:10]
A
Exactly, exactly. I'm like, oh, can we do a skylight here? And it's like, no, because the roof. And I'm like, I don't get it.
- [60:15]
B
You know what, Brooke, this is a safe space for your. We will notice your eyelashes and we will help you answer what you can build in your balconies. Thank you so much for doing this.
- [60:22]
A
This is.
- [60:33]
B
So. Is it self care or is it capitalism? I want to know what you think and you can tell me in the comments or reviews below. I for one was left with the impression that it is largely capitalism. Especially as Brooke was describing that pendulum shift between skinny jeans and wide jeans and skinny brows and big brows, all to sell us not just products, products, but this sense of insecurity that we're somehow behind or need to catch up or keep up. Sometimes I think the only way out of this cycle is just full on Marxism. Like if we were to all unionize and decide that we're not going to do any of it so we can get back to some real natural universal standard of what beauty should be. But of course that's totally Pollyannish. We are never going to get that collective bargaining agreement. And even if we did, there would definitely be cheaters on the market and I can't say that I would not be one of them. But it is wild that we live in a world where 12 year old girls are putting retinol onto their faces or 21 year olds are playing around with botox but of course the world we live in matters a lot. If you think about in Greek mythology, that narcissist would go visit the river to see his own reflection. Imagine what that man would do with a mirror or a selfie stick or a TikTok filter. And then imagine that we all live with this river all around, around us all of the time, presenting us with our own reflection. All of that makes me want to do the social media detox Brooke Devar just did and makes me grateful for the tips she just gave us. Like we do not necessarily need eye cream or ingestible collagen or fancy oils or toner, which it sounded like was kind of just like water or Botox. Unless you have wrinkles at rest. And even if you have wrinkles at rest, I think you can rest with those wrinkles. Now none of this is to shame any anyone who wants to splurge on any of this? I definitely splurge on lymphatic massages and hair care and other stuff. And everything I've learned from my dermatologist, Amanda Doyle, is that less is more when it comes to beauty. Anyways, if you want more of Brooke Devard, and I certainly do, you should check out her podcast Naked Beauty, wherever you get your shows and you can find her on Instagram at Brooke Devard. That's it for this week of Smart Girl Dumb Questions. We'll be back Friday with a fresh episode. Today's show was produced with Claire Lichtenstein, Deanna DaCosta, Healy Cruz, with additional editorial from Dana Belloot and Holly Thiel. A very special thanks to my dermatologist Amanda Doyle, who has saved me so much money, and to Brooke Devart, who's saved me money too. Now our theme music is by David Khan and I'm your host Naima Raza. If you like the show, please hit, follow or subscribe. And please tell 10 friends about it. That is how these things grow. If you have comments, reviews, suggestions or dumb questions, send me an email naimaraza101mail.com or leave them in the comments or reviews below. I'll see you next week on Smart Girl Dumb Questions. Skip the gym, not the workout. With hydro, you get a full body workout in just 20 minutes, hitting 86% of your muscles in one smooth, low impact motion. And now there's the new Hydro ARC, Hydro's most advanced rower yet. ARC introduces HydroMetrics, tracking your power, endurance and precision every time you row so you can actually, actually see your Progress. Go to hydro.com and use code row to get 100 off any hydro rower including arc. That's H Y--R-O-W.com code row.
- [63:44]
A
You know Hannah and I love a good bedrotting session, reality TV snacks nearby and now I've leveled up with my self care game with this Shark Beauty Cryoglow, the number one skincare facial device in the us.
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C
Wait, I'm obsessed with it. I've had it for a while actually and it's the only mask that combines high energy LEDs, infrared and under eye cooling. I really need this because nothing wakes me up in the morning. You could do four treatments in one better aging skin clearing, skin sustain and my favorite the under eye revive with Insta Chill Cold Tech. You put it on and it just feels so good under your eyes. Like I actually feel like I got eight hours of sleep.
- [64:20]
A
It's truly like a luxury spa moment while you're literally horizontal. It's perfect for post workout Sunday scaries or when you just want to glow while rotting.
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C
To treat yourself to the number one LED beauty mask this holiday season, go to SharkNinja.com and use promo code Giggly Squad for 10 off your CryoGLOW. That's SharkNinja.com and use Promo code Giggly Squad for 10 OFF your CryoGLOW.
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B
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