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- [00:08]
A
Hello. Hello, this is Brooke Devard, and you're listening to the Naked Beauty Podcast. In today's episode, we are really privileged to be joined by Dr. Ana Malaika Tubbs. Before I get more into Ana's background, I just have to say how much I have been craving this conversation. I have felt that as a society, as a beauty culture, we. We are becoming more and more regressive. Beauty standards have swung back all the way to the other side of the pendulum, and we are seeing more and more conversation around being small, specifically being skinny. And it's like, I came of age in, like, the early 2000s. I remember all of the tabloid magazines that were calling Jessica Simpson, like, huge and so overweight, and she was, like, literally a size 6. I can remember this obsession with diet culture. I can remember seeing commercials on TV for, like, trim spa diet pills. Like, I remember it all. I remember people really focusing on, like, the number of the. On the scale and really wanting to be, like, a certain size. And then in the 2010s, I feel like we had this incredible revolution, and it was like, body diversity and body positivity. And we got to this, like, really great place where it was like, it's not about, you know, your weight or being super skinny. It's about being healthy. Now in 2025, it does feel like we're going back to with the, you know, the rise of GLP1s, which, again, if you take a GLP1 and it makes you feel great and it makes you feel happy, that is your choice, that is your journey. But I think we also, again, need to acknowledge that we are slipping into regressive conversation about what beauty is when we're only seeing a certain size. And that kind of picture of body diversity is being limited to just fit a few sizes that fit within the beauty standard. I'm also seeing more and more filler Botox. I saw a girl on my for you page on TikTok the other day who was like, I'm 35, and I just got a facelift. And she talked about why she got a facelift. She's like, you know, I've always felt like I wanted my jaw to be more snatched. It's like everyone wants to have, like, a snatched jaw. It's like some people have beautiful round faces and, like, they look angelic and beautiful and, like, I think that's so precious. Like, I love diversity of faces. Some people are meant to have thinner lips. Maybe not everyone is meant to have these, like, very full lips that people are getting now by Injecting like syringes of filler into their lips. Everyone can do what they want. Obviously you all know me, I'm like the biggest proponent of like doing what you want. Express yourself with beauty. But we have to again ground all of these conversations and understanding what are the outside influences that are pushing us towards altering ourselves to this degree. Which brings me to today's conversation about the patriarchy. Because surprise, surprise, it all comes from the patriarchy. And American patriarchy in specific is really grounded in how this country was founded. So that brings me to today's guest, Ana Malaika Tubbs. A two times New York Times best selling author, ana holds a PhD in Sociology and a Master's in multidisciplinary Gender Studies from the University of Cambridge. In addition to a bachelor's in Medical Anthropology from Stanford University. Her work has been featured in Time magazine, New York Magazine, CNN and more. In her first book titled The Three how the Mothers of Martin Luther King Jr. Malcolm X and James Baldwin Shaped a Nation, was published in 2021. The book became a New York Times bestseller and has received critical acclaim. Her second book, what American Patriarchy has Hidden from Us was released on May 20th of 2025. Erased has become an instant New York Times bestseller and an instant USA Today bestseller. This book covers so much ground. This book talks about the role that media and technology has on our beauty standards. And she gets into AI, pornography, male toxicity, the pay gap, our periods, maternal health, women, and aging. And it all leads back to our founding fathers. This is such a deep conversation. I love having conversations like this on Naked Beauty. You guys are going to love it. Sit back, relax, and let's get into it. Dr. Ana Malaika Tubbs, welcome to Naked Beauty. So excited to have this conversation with you.
- [04:07]
B
Me too. Thanks so much for having me. Love.
- [04:09]
A
And I feel like I'm privileged because I get to call you Ana because we went to college together.
- [04:14]
B
Yeah, I know. It's so crazy. I'm like so amazed by everything you've built. I know I tell you this all the time, but I'm inspired and I'm so thankful that you're sharing all of your people with us. So thank you for having me on.
- [04:27]
A
This is the perfect conversation for the Naked Beauty audience because I feel like people who listen to this podcast, they love beauty, but they're interested in more of the cultural and societal conversations around beauty. And so your book, I got it in May. You sent it to me. Thank you. But as I've been reading it, it's become more and More relevant every single month. We're in a really kind of. It feels like we're going backwards when it comes to the beauty conversation. We're seeing more and more People advocate for GLP1 usage, which has its health benefits. But we also are seeing less body diversity or acceptance of body diversity. We're seeing fillers and Botox and anti aging treatments get more and more popular for younger and young. There's just a lot to unpack. So you're the perfect person to get into all of this with. But I want to start with your early childhood. So I want to hear about how you grew up, where you grew up, and if you felt beautiful growing up.
- [05:19]
B
Yeah, I grew up all over, so my childhood was, I guess, kind of unique in that way. Both my parents wanted us to see as much of the world as possible, so they prioritized travel above all else. And so we had this amazing privilege, my siblings and I, of traveling from country to country abroad. We lived in Dubai, Estonia, Sweden, Mexico, Azerbaijan. We went back and forth to Ghana, where my dad is from. And so my perspective of myself and other people is informed obviously by that experience and just seeing so many different ways of living and loving and believing in different things. And so I would say also, even my view of myself was largely informed by the fact that I'd seen so many different people. And in my family life, my parents and my siblings were always building me up, always giving me a lot of confidence, a lot of messages of, Ana, you can do anything you wanna do. You're wonderful and you're beautiful and all of these things. But one of the things that still affected me, even though they were telling me such positive things, was how my mom and my sister saw themselves sometimes. Because my sister was a ballerina, so she was constantly being watched and waged. She danced for the Royal Ballet of London, like, the best ballet program.
- [06:34]
A
I feel like the very, very brief time I spent taking ballet classes like Borderline could have developed an eating disorder just from, like. Just from, like, two years of taking ballet classes. Just because you were actually, like, measured by your body. Like, they will tell you if your hips are too wide, if your thighs are getting too big, and they don't hold back.
- [06:52]
B
Exactly. And so to be at the top of that game, you know, she's hearing those messages constantly. And so I often saw her weighing herself or thinking about what she was eating. You know, she's my big sister, my role model. And so even if she wasn't passing those messages directly on to me, I picked up on them. And so similarly with my mom, my mom was always building me up, but at times would talk about her own weight as if there was something wrong with that or the changes that her body had gone through with pregnancy, et cetera. And so those are things that indirectly affected me. And in high school, I also had issues with wanting to police my body and my weight. And I was counting calories at a very young age. And so it really took up until college for me to break free from those mentalities and be able to see that from this kind of bird's eye view of, oh, my siblings, my mom and my sister and my mom are being affected by cultural standards and these national standards. And I don't have to follow along with that. And if anything, I can go back and help build their confidence up as well. And so that's what I'm always about now, is helping other people realize that there are outside factors that are impacting that more than anything. And especially if anybody's making comments, whether about themselves or directly about you, it has so much more to do with the society that we find ourselves in rather than you. So as long as we can kind of shift our perspective, we can start to make choices that are better for us.
- [08:26]
A
It says more about the society we're from, but it also has nothing to do with the truth. Like, there's the truth of how you look, and then there's the way that everything gets distorted. I love that you bring up how you paid attention to what your mom and sister were saying. Because I often think that people, even with friends, I mean, as a parent, it's special, right? Because we have kids, you know, our kids are always listening to us. Even when you think they're not listening, they are always listening.
- [08:47]
B
They're always listening.
- [08:48]
A
Yeah, they're listening. They're watching. But even with friends, it's like if you're with girlfriends and you say like, oh, I feel so fat today, or like, oh, my thighs look huge in these jeans, then your friends are thinking, well, if they think that about themselves, how do they think about my body? We have to really watch our language around others. Because that influence, even if you tell someone, oh, you look amazing, and if they hear you talking down about yourself, you're sharing that toxicity with them.
- [09:12]
B
That's absolutely true. And I love that you bring it up in the level of friendships, because we definitely witness that. And I feel that all the time. If a girlfriend of mine doesn't feel great about her body, I then start to have some questions about mine. I Start to think a little bit differently about something. And then especially our children, we can tell them as much as possible, love yourself. You know, we love you and you're so wonderful, and you don't have to worry about what other people think of you. But if. Especially moms, right. And especially moms of daughters, if we're speaking badly about ourselves or we're saying, oh, no, I can't get in a swimsuit because I don't look the way I want to look, or I am going to not eat all of the things that you guys get to eat. You know, this is like, different ways in which we're saying we're not good enough. And that is. I mean, it's even research. There's data behind this that a mother's level of confidence is the thing that will impact their children the most. If we're speaking down about ourselves, then they are also going to replicate that. So the language of us telling them versus showing them what loving yourself is and having confidence in yourself is has much more of an impact on children.
- [10:22]
A
That is so fascinating. A mother's level of confidence impacts their children's level of confidence. I love that. Now, if your dad is Ghanaian, where's your mom from?
- [10:30]
B
My mom was born in Clarkston, Washington, and her parents were French and Swedish. So kind of a big mix of a bunch of different places and cultures. But one thing I will say about Ghana, especially with my dad, he would always just comment, you know, on people. This is a very West African thing to do. So he might say something like, oh, look at that fat person over there, like that. And I'd be like, dad, you can't say stuff like that. And he'd be like, americans are the ones who think being fat is wrong or that there's something wrong about being fat. He's like, sometimes it's just factual that a person is bigger than another person. And so he would always say these things to me. And that's another reason I realized, oh, you're right. Why did I think saying the word fat was an insult? So even those things are very cultural, like the meaning we assign to certain words in certain bodies.
- [11:15]
A
Absolutely. So how does your experience with beauty evolve over time? Especially when you started studying social science and learning about the way society impacts all of these things?
- [11:24]
B
Yeah. When I would say, especially when I was getting my master's in gender studies, we read this book called the Limits of Choice, and it really just blew my mind because I've always been somebody who's advocating for women to make choices for themselves. You know, I'm not saying that we all have to live the same way. For instance, I'm somebody who. I don't wear a lot of makeup. I try to do everything as organically as possible. And it's just because I feel like medicine really impacts me. So I really want to avoid it as much as possible. But I don't think that everybody needs to follow my same way of living by any means. I'm always advocating for all of us to be able to choose what works best for us, but also to be informed about how those choices are being influenced by, again, that society at large that we find ourselves in. And so this book in particular really opened my mind to how little we're able to choose for ourselves, because from the moment we're born, we're being told what our choices should be and that our choices should be limited. And that's really. The book Erased is entirely about the fact that we've only been offered a limited amount of choices and that we think often, okay, we're choosing this for ourselves. I want to be able to have access to, you know, let's say to weight loss, drugs, for example. But how much of that is our choice and versus how much of that is somebody's made us think we have to choose that thing. And so I always want to use my work to bring more of the information so that especially women and girls can actually make the choice that works best for them. Once they know what they're being offered and why, then I can get down with any choice that they want to make for themselves.
- [13:10]
A
Yes. And in your book, you talk about how the media plays such a large role in this. But what I also love that you talked about is how technology plays a part in this. And I think I often. And maybe it's because I worked at a tech company for so long, I think I often follow the line of thinking like, well, technology's opened us up to so many more beauty standards because we see different models. But you say that the people in power and technology are actually very much following American patriarchy and reinforcing it tenfold through these apps. I'd love to hear you talk more about that.
- [13:39]
B
Definitely. Definitely.
- [13:40]
A
I don't work in tech anymore. So we can bash tech.
- [13:42]
B
So we can go in.
- [13:43]
A
Okay, we can go in, go in.
- [13:45]
B
I mean, especially if we're thinking about AI, Right? So AI is based off of information that's already available online. So it's always replicating what's already available to it. So if we have seen of course, on Facebook, Instagram, obviously those are the same company now, but even X, all of these companies have been well studied, and it's shown that the algorithm likes to work with people's insecurities. Because if you feel insecure about something, you're going to keep seeking outside reinforcement or the thing that you need to feel secure. And so when we had the whistleblower, right, the meta whistleblower, saying, our data shows that girls are being hurt, right? And girls are developing insecurities at much higher levels when they use our platforms. But we want them to, right? Because then they're going to keep coming back to our platform. This was something that seemed really revelatory for those that were unaware, but especially that generation, right, when phones are first being used by teenagers in ways that were unregulated. We didn't know that it was going to have this level of impact on them. We didn't know that social media was going to have this level of impact on them. But when you now take it to the level of AI where you're gonna see the reproduction of European beauty standards, the reproduction of what women and girls are supposed to look like according to American patriarchy, it becomes really obvious how dangerous it is if we're not going to pinpoint what the problem is that we're seeing. And the example that I use in the book to kind of introduce the AI chapter is Lensa AI when we all were seeing the images that our friends are posting, they look like they're in some kind of fantasy world, some kind of futuristic world. And I remember seeing it and thinking, oh, I want to know what I look like in this AI app. But very quickly, within a day, people started to realize some of the problematic patterns. Girls and women were often presented as these kind of fantasy creatures and nymphs and fairies, often without clothes. Even if all of the images, of course, that they submitted, they were clothes. Even women who were wearing their hijabs, they no longer were presented with those in the reproduction of their images. There were enlarged breasts. Women were shown as much skinnier than what they. Their images might have represented.
- [16:15]
A
Also smaller noses, more pronounced cheekbones, straight.
- [16:19]
B
Hair, all of the above everything.
- [16:20]
A
Larger eyes.
- [16:22]
B
All of that. All of that, exactly. Asian women in particular reported being shown and represented as anime characters. And there's a whole history of violence and sexual violence against female anime characters. And instead, on the other side, men are being shown as astronauts and doctors and professionals, obviously clothes. And so the female body was often taken and represented in the way that is, you know, women are supposed to be docile and fragile. And also certain women should be exotified. So it really was just the reproduction of the issue that I identify in the book, which is American patriarchy.
- [17:03]
A
Yeah. Wow. You say that self love isn't personal, it's political. Why is that?
- [17:10]
B
I mean, if we talk about the extension beyond what our children are seeing, right. When we're talking about that conversation of the more confident we are, the more confident our children are, it's the same in terms of this ripple effect for our communities at large, for our nation at large. If we cannot accept ourselves and also learn to hear ourselves again, it's going to be really difficult on a national level for us to resist. Right. If there is, you know, especially with current, our current administration, it's going to feel like we don't know who to trust or where to turn. But a lot of the power relies or it really lives within ourselves. And so being able to trust yourself, being able to say I am enough, being able to say I am powerful, being able to say what my gut is telling me is something that I need to trust, is really what will allow us to finally dismantle patriarchy in our nation. Because those are the things that keep us from being able to. Because patriarchy and in the US And I'll talk about kind of how the founding fathers built it maybe next. But it relies on us hating ourselves and hating each other in order for it to maintain itself. Because when we trust ourselves, we would be much more able to see that what it offers us is limited and that we can create so much more and that we could find so much more joy beyond it. But we can't get to that if we don't trust ourselves enough to question what our society and our systems are offering us.
- [18:47]
A
And so just to add to that, I would say that self hatred perpetuates capitalism.
- [18:52]
B
Absolutely.
- [18:53]
A
Capitalism relies on us disliking ourselves to continue. Right. So it's like we need new clothes, we've got to update. And it's interesting, you know, I said, I'm not in tech anymore, now I'm in media. But we're doing this whole style forecast for fall. And one of the things that I talked to the stylist about was like, let's create looks with things people already have in their closet. Let's source vintage items. Like let's tell people how they can thrift these things. Because I think that even, even in it's, it's. It seems like it's not a big deal, but it's very insidious. A magazine will be like, these jeans are back, but it's not the jeans you had 10 years ago. They're slight. The hem is slightly longer. So now you need to get these. It's like they'll say something's back, but it's like you still have to buy something, right? It's like the way you were doing your mascara before is no longer good enough. You have to use this type of mascara now. It's that very. And that's. And to your point, you stop trusting yourself, you betray your own trust, and you're like, oh, you know what? Even though I thought this was fine, I actually need this updated thing. So I do want to hear how it all leads back to the Founding Fathers. But I also do want to pause and have you just define what is patriarchy.
- [19:54]
B
Yes. Yeah, yeah. So patriarchy, we typically talk about it as any system where men are being favored over women, and men are given access to resources and opportunities in order to control women. And those resources and opportunities are being kept from women in any given society. And I'm saying in the book that, yes, that's layered to it, but it should be much more of a nuanced conversation, because in each of the places that I've lived, for example, patriarchy shows up very differently depending on who the founders of that nation were, the system in which we're operating. And so I wanted to really pinpoint American patriarchy, because I think a lot of people in our nation don't realize, number one, that we live in a patriarchal system, that it was designed that way, but also that our Founding Fathers knew that there were other options available to them when they were designing our nation. So they very intentionally, strategically said, we are building a republic of men. And so when I talk about patriarchy, I try to not blame anybody, like any current people, Right. And instead say, let's look at the system. Let's direct our attention to a system that's hurting all of us. Because if we go back to what the Founding Fathers were experiencing when they won the Revolutionary War, they were the underdogs. Nobody expected this to happen. And they were fighting for power within their nation. And so that revolutionary spirit starts to spread across the country because others are thinking, oh, we can shift everything this happened. What else can happen? And so they're very fearful that they're going to lose power within the nation that they've built. And with that in mind, with that level of insecurity, with that sense of scarcity, they build a system that will favor them where they can retain power over other people. And so they write the Constitution defining what it is to be man, what it is to have power. And they say men can own land, men can vote, men can represent themselves in business decisions.
- [21:56]
A
And we should also say white men, right?
- [21:58]
B
Oh, yeah, we're gonna get there for sure.
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A
Okay, okay. I'm like, when's the white supremacy layer coming in? Okay, but let me be patient. Let me be patient.
- [22:06]
B
It's so true. And then, though they define womanhood by the letters that they write to their daughters and to their wives, because women are completely ignored in the Constitution on purpose. You don't see the word woman. They say to the women in their lives, women should be docile. Women should not vote. Women should be protected by the men in their lives. And that's the only thing that women can do that is worth anything, is to reproduce the power of men through children. So they name that. So we see already this very problematic binary in the founding of our nation that says man, woman. But as you said, clearly from those definitions, they're leaving out a lot of people who are not going to have access to those rights. We know that people who are enslaved are not being included in either one of these definitions. We know that indigenous people are not being included in either one of these definitions and that their beliefs are being erased. In order to make it seem as though American patriarchy is natural and the divine order, we have to make it so that people who acknowledged, for instance, that women could be cheats, that people who were non binary could not only be recognized, but in fact, were the wisest of their groups. That needed to be erased. We needed to kill that entirely.
- [23:20]
A
Can I pause you there for a question? Because let's pause. I'm realizing this is something I didn't learn about in my American history classes. So before the colonialism of America, in indigenous populations that were in the Americas, was it not a patriarchal, patriarchal society, were women given equal power as men?
- [23:41]
B
Yeah. And, you know, I would say I'm not like an expert in all of the different indigenous ways of living, and there were so many different tribes. However, we do know historically there's evidence that women were chiefs, so they were leaders in their tribes, that they had voting or decision power in the ways in which decisions were made, that people who now we term as two spirited, who existed beyond the binary, were recognized and celebrated. And so in all of those ways, that's very different. So even if there were a patriarchal system in space where perhaps men are still given more resources. For example, it brings us back to that point that patriarchies exist differently in all of the different places, places in which they exist. And so the American patriarchs, the American founding fathers, they take it to another level, even beyond the English common law and the monarchy. And so they even the women in their lives. So Abigail Adams, for example, there's this famous quote where she says, remember the ladies, do better by us than the monarchy did. And she writes this letter to her husband saying, do better by us in the country that you're building. Remember us. And he writes back to her and he mocks her and he says, we know better than to allow women to vote. And Thomas Jefferson also says, we are not going to fall for the same problems as the French because French women were emancipated. And so they put this in writing, right? So it's not that they were unaware. It's not that patriarchy in the way that they build it is the only thing that's available to them. They are constructing it. They are going against indigenous belief systems. And they are also saying, we see some other nations that are comparable to us and we're not going to make that mistake. Allowing women to participate politically is a mistake. And so again, though they're not thinking of, for instance, enslaved women, black women as women. We see that if they're saying that men are the ones who get to pass on their status to their children and their power to their children, then why is it that black women, by law, if they were to have children, they would always be slaves, no matter how they came to have those children by law. Black women are painted as the direct opposite of these white powerful men. And they're also not including poor white people, if you think about it. And then we can go into the fact that they're only including able bodied people in all of these things. And so from the beginning, this system is excluding most of us. But it's also tricking us into thinking that the way we access humanity in our nation and the way we can be recognized in our nation is by assimilating as close as possible to these two recognized groups. And that's in appearance, that's in our behaviors, et cetera. This is where respectability politics comes in. Obviously has a lot to do with beauty standards, especially in our black communities, but that we're being tricked into protecting something that is hurting us rather than directing our attention to how it is hurting us. We're blaming each other and we're also just showing how we can reproduce it. In our lives. And it's one of the reasons that we silence ourselves. It's one of the reasons that we think, let me just fall in line with the social order.
- [27:08]
A
Let me. Let me straighten my hair before my job interview.
- [27:11]
B
Exactly. All of those things. So, yeah. Okay, back to our beauty conversation.
- [27:16]
A
No, but I mean, hearing you speak about it is why I think my favorite time in, like, beauty culture, beauty history, is the 60s, the black is beautiful movement, the big Afros, because it was just this, you know, now we've come to a place where, like, you can decide if you have. If you want to have a blonde weave down to your butt, that's great. Do you. That doesn't make you any less black. But I love that period of just saying, like, we are just, like, totally rejecting this European beauty standard, and we're going to wear our hair in Afros and we're going to. You know, I just. I love that. And I think it's like, it was such a powerful statement at the time, and I think it's what's allowed us to be where we are now in terms of, like, the black beauty conversation, where there is more choice.
- [27:50]
B
Yeah.
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A
I just love that. Love that.
- [27:52]
B
I completely agree. I completely agree. And it's.
- [27:54]
A
That's.
- [27:54]
B
Those are the most inspiring moments. Right. It's just this realization that black women have always had because we were pushed so far away from the benefits of American patriarchy that we've been able to see that it's all made up, that there were other options, and that we can always make something else up. We can create something new. Because the system as it was never served us. The system as it is has never served us. And so you see throughout American history, black women really claiming, hey, we're going to rewrite this nation. We're going to introduce new laws. We want everyone to see things through our eyes where we are recognized as human beings. Our children are recognized as human beings, where our children are not just removed from us as if they are property, even though that's written in the law. And so that's where you'll find so much inspiration throughout American history are these moments where black women are saying, you know, f. That we're going to do this differently. It's not working for us.
- [28:50]
A
Yeah, you. You also brought up French women. And it also made me think about Josephine Baker, who, of course, was like, looked around America, saw what was happening, and said, you know what? Paris is actually where it's at. And, you know, Paris, probably. It was also problematic. Right. Because Josephine Baker was sexualized as this exotic African woman right there. There are some very harmful tropes there. But one of the things that I found in my research of Josephine Baker is she was one of the very first, like, celebrity slash beauty influencers.
- [29:16]
B
She.
- [29:17]
A
She. They sold a. I think it was called. I don't know what it was called, but it was basically a tanning cream for white French women to get the, like, golden bronze complexion. Oh, I love that. Which, of course, they're not going to get. Right. Like, she's like, the melanin is inherited. But sure, I'll sell this. Hopefully she got a good cut. Okay, I want to read a part of your book. This is chapter 21. None of us are protected about California because I moved to California three, almost three years ago and also have a daughter. So. Okay, I'm gonna read this part out loud. When I was a little girl, I often dreamed about moving to California, and I couldn't tell you exactly why. I didn't even visit California until my college admit weekend when I was 17. But even as a middle schooler, I was aware of California's appeal. So, wait, I have to pause there. So you. When you got into Stanford, that was your first time going to California?
- [30:04]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
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A
Wow.
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B
But I always, like, idealized it in my mind. I was like, that is the place.
- [30:09]
A
To live when I. When I went. I wonder if we went the same, like, admit weekend. But I just remember, you know, obviously coming from the East Coast, I applied to all the east coast schools and got in. But then when I went to Stanford, I was like, palm trees and people were playing volleyball. Like, there were those, like, beach volleyball courts right by, like, the classrooms. And I was like, wait, this is kind of crazy.
- [30:26]
B
Like, it's like paradise.
- [30:28]
A
Paradise. Paradise. That's how it seemed. Okay. But even as a middle schooler, I was aware of California's appeal. I knew it was sunny. I knew Californians were the creators of TV shows and movies. Californians seemed happier than everyone else, and they definitely appeared to be in better shape. I've lived in this great state since I decided to go to college in the bay area in 2010, and my husband and I moved into Southern California in 2021. The things I observed from a distance, likely in magazines and TV shows as a preteen, were accurate. The weather is amazing. Storytelling makes things go around here, which is inspiring for writers like myself. People smile and engage more, and everyone is hyper conscious about their appearance. However, this obsession with looks in a place that is the apex of content Creation combined with people's general unknowing of what truly influences is perilous. It is a clear example of the danger that arises and not only continues to grow when we think we're formulating our own thoughts and decisions about ourselves, but in reality, we are just fulfilling what the messengers of American patriarchy want. Don't get me wrong, it's not bad to be healthy and in shape, but I've never met more people, especially women and girls, in my entire life and in my travels all over the world, who want to alter themselves than I have. In California, especially Los Angeles, I worry about raising children, specifically my daughter, in a place where everyone wants to be skinnier or curvier, to look older if they're teens, younger if they are grown women, to Botox every wrinkle and get surgery to tuck any sagging skin. All these desired changes are fed to us by the media so we can be, quote, unquote, sexier or prettier, which puts us in danger from a very young age. Okay. When I read that, I was like, I got goosebumps. Because, yes, I see it too. I've been here, you know, since 2022, early 2023, and people here are hyper obsessed with their looks. You see more. I've never seen so much cosmetic surgery. It's like you just go out to. Just to lunch, and you just see everyone with these huge lips and frozen faces and reading. That really hit when I had my daughter because I'm like, yes, I'm also raising a daughter in this environment. So what do we do as LA moms? Let's talk through it.
- [32:31]
B
Yeah, we have to. And it's so normalized here. This was the thing. And of course, you know, like, I'm a student of culture and I'm the anthropologist. I'm a proud nerd and sociologist. And so I'm always noticing it around me and how the things I study play out in the world and my personal relationships. And as we talked about earlier, I'm all about women's confidence and a making the choices with the information that we have available to us. And so when I sit down at a meal and there's several other moms around me, and each one of them is telling me either about a surgery that they've had, if not multiple, or that they plan on having. And I'm sitting there thinking, wait, so no one's questioning this, like, every single.
- [33:13]
A
And wait, listen, you also mentioned sitting down at a meal, and I can't tell you how many meals I've had here in la where people push their food around because they're on Ozempic or Zepbound or some GLP1 and it's like, you were already so small, like, why was this necessary?
- [33:26]
B
Why was this necessary? And that it's like causing so much, you know, depression too. We don't talk enough about that. There are things that are a part of us living communally that make us, you know, bond with each other. And eating and being together at a meal is a huge part of that. And I think, again, of course, whatever choices people want to make, I am all for them. But I think a lot of people don't realize why they so badly want to make those choices. Why, especially moms, when we go through all of the changes that our bodies go through, why we're then fed these messages that we somehow done something wrong or we need to change something about our appearance, or we need to, quote, unquote, bounce back versus being able to see the power of the transformation of our bodies and the messages that could shift in our heads if instead. Instead we're looking at ourselves as the creators and looking at ourselves as being able to do what nobody else can do, like, have this mentality of, look what I have done for my child. And that's even beyond biological motherhood and all forms of caretaking, when we are willing to give of ourselves for another, that's something that is honorable, it is powerful. And if our bodies went through a change, in order for this life to be sustained, in order for this life to be possible, we should honor that. And so it's always really sad for me to hear from my friends who are constantly thinking about, oh, all these things changed for my body, and now I need to do something to myself in order to get back to the standard. And I just don't think they always realize whose standard that is.
- [35:10]
A
Yes. I mean, I think it's so layered, it's so complex. I want to get into the Serena Williams of it all. I was very disappointed to see her advertisement endorsing GLP1s. The thing that disturbed me the most was in the commercial, she says, I was eating clean, I was eating healthy, and I was working out every day, but the scale wouldn't move. So that. So I decided to get on this GLP1 and my life's never been better. And I feel so great, and I'm happy now, and I just feel great. I hate that language. Because one, I thought we got away from the scale. Like, I thought, like, we went through, like, the toxic 2000s, where everyone was obsessed with the number on the scale. And I thought we got to this place that was like, you know, as long as you're healthy, you don't have to be a size 0 or a size 2 to be healthy. You can be, you know, in a larger body and still be healthy. I kind of thought we got there, but then seeing that language in the commercial really disappointed me. I think, you know, her decision, anyone's decision is their own decision, and that's like, fine. Some people have, like, pcos, and some people have elevated blood. I have elevated, you know, I. Gestational diabetes with both pregnancies. I just did my first postpartum blood test, and I was pre diabetic. I was like, no, people. There are reasons that people go on these drugs and people, you know, have great experiences in some cases, sometimes they don't. But it made me just feel so disappointed to see this athlete that I admire so, so much. The greatest athlete of our time. Right. Have such a focus on what her body looked like when I voice admired her for what her body could do.
- [36:39]
B
Exactly. Exactly. And, I mean, I had a similar reaction, to be honest. And maybe it's unfair to Serena that we have these reactions, but I think it is because we grew up as black girls being able to see this incredible athlete who had this powerful presence as well as a body that was. She was celebrating. Right. It was like, not everybody could do what Serena did.
- [37:02]
A
Right.
- [37:02]
B
And so. And that she's done and continues to do. And so for me, the language of it was also around, like, after having my babies.
- [37:10]
A
Right. Right.
- [37:11]
B
I couldn't, you know, I couldn't get back. And I thought, I've never seen Serena as a small person. I've always seen her as a strong, powerful person. And so I just thought. Not to say that you can't be strong and powerful if you're small, but this is not how I thought of Serena Williams. So I immediately, when I saw it, you could ask my husband. I sent it to him on Instagram and I said, oh, this breaks my heart, because when did skinny become the replacement for healthy? Like, when she's saying the language of. I think the quote I saw was, I am a perfect example of somebody, like you said, who eats healthily and exercises, but I still can't lose the weight. And it's like, but then maybe you're not supposed to be that weight.
- [37:56]
A
Maybe you're meant to be at that weight. Exactly. Exactly.
- [37:58]
B
But I also have to say, like, as a caveat, I think a Lot of times when women who. We appear thin, like, then others would say, oh, it's so easy for you to say that you haven't experienced this. I do feel like that's an important disclaimer. There are a lot of things that I would say, oh, wow, it'd be really difficult for me to imagine why somebody would want to do that. So I get it. I also am just saying, especially with Serena, I feel like there's been a lot of criticism in her life. There's been so many people watching her. Right. Commenting on her. And I think a lot of that now become quite internalized, to be honest. And it makes me. It just makes me sad. I want to see women who embrace their bodies and who feel good about their bodies and you know, like, I'm talking about the pregnancy thing. Like, even though. Yes, I'm. Then a lot of changes happened for me.
- [38:48]
A
Oh, yeah, things change.
- [38:50]
B
I nursed all three of my children, so, like, I no longer really have much in that department anymore. And so I understand the change and like sometimes feeling like, oh, wow, this looks very different than things were before, but I would just hope that we can have more messages of. And that's an awesome thing. And like, look what your body's done. And I'm proud of it.
- [39:14]
A
Yes, yes. I think you're absolutely right to bring up your pretty privilege. Your, you know, you could be a model. You're. You were a model at Stanford, right?
- [39:24]
B
You cast me as a model.
- [39:25]
A
Yes, I cast you as a model. You are a model. So I think that is very important. So, like, when I say things like, yeah, I couldn't imagine doing that, or you say it's. Yeah, there's, there's. You're coming from a different reality, I think too. Yes. You have to bring up the fact that her boss, she's been the subject of so much misogyny, so much anti blackness. Right. Like, from such a young age. So, like, how do you not internalize some of that? And like, I guess we can't. You know, it's I guess the natural consequence of living under a microscope for that long.
- [39:53]
B
But it's something that you brought up recently where when things are, something's being offered to us, right. Like, can we also offer just some moments of conversation, like, how are you feeling? Like, we want you to hear from all these young girls who watch you and we want you to hear about all these women who like us, like, what we would have said just to tell her how wonderfully beautiful she is, you know, and I'd be curious just to know, like, a little bit more about where those insecurities are coming from.
- [40:23]
A
Yeah.
- [40:24]
B
That's all I'm just.
- [40:25]
A
Absolutely. And then the only other caveat that I was going to add is, like, I am wearing hair extensions in right now. The other day I chose to wear this, like, corset top because it really, like, cinched in my waist. It wasn't comfortable. Right. But I felt, like, snatched and like. But, like, is that the patriarchy being, like, it doesn't matter that you're uncomfortable. Like, your waist looks smaller. So, like, wear this top. Right. So, like, we all are victims of the patriarchy. We've all internalized some messages to a degree. And then it starts to be like, well, what. What's okay to internalize versus what's not? And that becomes, like, a hard moral game to play.
- [40:56]
B
It is a hard moral game to play. And I think, especially for, like, girls, women, we are told constantly, you're not powerful, you are weak. What your body does is decide. I mean, think about any time you had your period and you were a teenager and you felt like you needed to hide it. Like, these are the messages we are fed.
- [41:14]
A
Oh, my God.
- [41:15]
B
From very, very, very early on. And so, yeah, we can't necessarily say to even friends, like, snap out of it. Why are you acting like that? Or like, why do you feel that way? And on the other side of it, too, it's not that all of these things came from patriarchy. You know, like some of the things like hair extensions or even straightening our hair. Some of those things. Actually, we have some evidence that women on the continent of Africa knew how to strain their hair before somebody appeared. Like a Color Ranger.
- [41:44]
A
I didn't know that.
- [41:45]
B
There's also different ways of thinking about beauty. And so it's not that we took all of these European standards. We've also taken them and made them our own. So there's ways in which we can reclaim a lot of the power in making those choices. I just want everybody to be always hyper aware. And if we can start earlier in these conversations with younger girls, then they're seeing the world very differently. And I hope then they can block some of the messages that say, you're not good enough as you are.
- [42:18]
A
Yes. I want to talk about having young girls. How old is your daughter Ana?
- [42:23]
B
She's almost four. Tomorrow's her birthday. She's four.
- [42:25]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [42:26]
B
Happy birthday to her.
- [42:28]
A
Okay, almost four. So what are you already doing to help enforce a positive body image? And what are your like, concern areas, because I think someone was talking about. It was a black mom talking about their daughter wanting to have, like, the blonde Elsa wig and how she was navigating that, because it's like, yes, Elsa's the character, but do I want my, you know, little black girl in, like, a long, long blonde wig? So young? So how are you navigating that?
- [42:53]
B
The biggest thing I will say is going back to something we said earlier, that they are always watching us. They are always listening to what we're saying, how we're talking about ourselves especially. And my daughter is very curious about everything that I do. So in the mornings, she comes in and just watches me. And while I'm getting dressed or whatever I'm doing, and the very few times that I wear makeup. And again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with my makeup. Love it. I just personally don't do it very often. So the few times that I do, she's always very curious, oh, what's that for? What are you doing that for? And I'm like, oh, today I want to look a little bit different. Or, like, today I want to try something out, and it's fun, it's creative, and, like, those kinds of things versus saying, like, oh, I look horrible today, like, I have to cover something up, or, you know, just the way you talk about your body. And I'm always speaking about myself with a lot of positivity, and I think that that's what has the biggest impact on her. Some of the areas of concern, though. For instance, my daughter has blonde hair. Surprisingly, she does.
- [43:56]
A
She does.
- [43:57]
B
And it just, you know, kind of surprised all of us.
- [44:00]
A
I feel like we need to also just explain, like, her father, your husband, is, you know, very black. Like, this isn't like. It's just kind of. It's like a surprise.
- [44:09]
B
It's a surprise. Exactly. It's important context. For those who do not know our family. We were all shocked by how black. And the thing is, though, the reason I say it's a concern is that everybody talks about her hair. Everywhere we go, she is stopped by someone saying, oh, my God, you're so beautiful. And your hair. Look at your hair. It's so amazing, your hair. And so I am always trying to counter that message because I don't want her to feel so tied. Like, her identity is tied to being a black girl with blonde hair. And the fact that people are overemphasizing the European features that they see in her really concerns me. And so I don't want to get too deep into that with her. But we're constantly, you know, saying, yeah, you're beautiful, you know, no matter what. And potentially your hair is going to change color, too. Like, I don't want you to.
- [44:57]
A
Yeah. You know, that reminds. That reminds me when I was very young. I can remember. I haven't thought about this in so long. This just, like, unlocked a memory for me when people would tell me I was beautiful to my mom. Oh, she's so pretty. My mom would always say. And she's so, so smart, too. She always said that.
- [45:11]
B
Yes. Thank you.
- [45:12]
A
She's so smart, too. She's such a great runner, too. You know, like, she's doing really well on track, too. Like, she never put emphasis on the beauty thing.
- [45:22]
B
That's so important. And I completely agree. I'm always talking about how brilliant Nehemiah is. And I would also say that, like, you know, sometimes we have this notion that we can't tell little girls how beautiful they are. Right. Because we live in, like, a country of extremism. So we, like, when we want to do something empowering, we sometimes go, like, really far in the other direction. And I think it's about finding that middle ground and finding a balance, because I do want her to know how beautiful she is. And like you said, how brilliant she is, how talented she is, how hard she works at things. Right. Like, that's even more important, the effort that she puts towards things. And I'm always asking her how something makes her feel, rather than her seeking my validation or her dad's validation or her sibling's validation, you know, she'll put on it. She loves dresses. She's very girly, girly girl. I dressed them all very gender neutral. You know, like, obviously with the things I study, I was like, let them make their own choices. And she chose pinks and she chose glitter. And she always will ask, what do you think of my outfit? And I'll quickly say, what do you think of your outfit? And if she's like, I love it. I'm like, that's what matters most. I love it, too. And so I'll agree with the thing that she's already saying about herself so that she's finding that love for herself within her. And I think that's, you know, she's super confident, and I just don't want anyone to break that. And the last thing I'll say is my mom was so almost, like, delusionally so, so positive about us. And I loved that. I think it had a great impact on me. She was constantly saying like, you all are wonderful. You're the best kids in the world, you're the smartest. You can do whatever you want. And sometimes I'd be like, mom, calm down. You don't have to do all that in front of all these people. But when I look back on it, she just had the utmost belief in me. And I mean, I should say why I'm speaking about her in the past tense. My mom passed away two and a half years ago.
- [47:18]
A
Oh, I'm so sorry, Ana.
- [47:20]
B
Thank you. Thank you. But I feel that presence constantly of her just saying that. And I walk with that always with me, like, yes, I can do this 100%. I'm great.
- [47:31]
A
Yes. I mean, and going back to one of our first points that you, you know, educated me on how the confidence of your mother impacts your relationship with beauty. I think that's so felt. I mean, I'm seeing all of the facelifts that people are getting now. Like, I was going to say, like, facial enhancements now. It's where I get full on, like, deep plain facelifts.
- [47:50]
B
Yeah.
- [47:50]
A
And it's like, my mom is 69, 68. Let me not. Let me not misquote. My mom is in her late 60s and she looks great, and she's not doing all this crazy stuff to her face. My grandmother is about to be 90. She's not doing all this crazy stuff to her face. Kris Jenner has gotten a facelift. So you can, like, believe that, like, her daughter will shortly be getting a face. You know, like, it's a lot of. It is kind of like what you see, but there's also an access point. There's also. There's also something to be said about access. Right?
- [48:22]
B
Yeah.
- [48:22]
A
One of the videos that I very recently made, I felt calls to make it was about how we should see people that continually get facial enhancements to the point where it's, like, very clearly unnatural. And, you know, living here in la, you, like, can see it, but people now see it on their Instagram feed. You see it all around us. Like, people are taking facial enhancements to a point that is just so clearly signaling a deeper mental health crisis. And I think what we're seeing is people having facial dysmorphia, people having these public battles with facial dysmorphia where they've really lost sight of what they look like. Their barometer for, like, looking good has become so shifted and altered. And it's interesting because those people that do do all of the facial work are also still using, like, Lots of makeup and filters. So it's like there's something deeper going on. There's something deeper going on. But I think linked to this conversation about women spending so much time enhancing their looks with needles and fillers and all of these things is this conversation about aging. And women have never really been given the grace to age, have they?
- [49:24]
B
No, no, no. If we look at it back, or. Sorry, if we look back at American patriarchy in this kind of original social order that I was talking about and how women are told the power that you hold is in reproducing children, right? Reproducing the power of men, then our nation is set up in a way where it's actually very unkind to aging people. And I'll talk a little bit about how it's unkind to aging men as well, but especially aging women, because if you're beyond a reproductive age in our society, as it's been built and as it's been presented to us, you no longer matter, literally, in the system of American patriarchy, that if you can no longer reproduce the power and the status of the men in your lives, then what are you for? So that's. That's the reason we had so much delay in seeing older women on tv, right? And even any presentation of them. Why women are constantly being told, hide the fact that you are aging by any means necessary, whether it's. Hide the white hair that might show up on your head, hide the wrinkle. As soon as a wrinkle appears, you should be very terrified. And make sure you find a way to get rid of it. Hide any sagging skin. Anything that has to do with my body is evolving and changing. It's also the reason why we had such little research, if any, I mean, zero, almost research on menopause, perimenopause. And it's also one of the reasons we don't talk about grief or death in the United States, because that brings me to how it impacts men who are aging. Men are told, in the US you are supposed to dominate. You are supposed to have control over other people. And so elderly men have now become physically weaker. And so we also discard elderly men. There's also a process that men go through that's called andropause, where they're starting to develop some of the kind of hormones that allow them to be more empathetic.
- [51:33]
A
In all of my life, Ana, I've never heard, it's called andropause.
- [51:37]
B
Andropause, yes.
- [51:38]
A
Andropause. I've never heard of this okay.
- [51:40]
B
Version of menopause, it's actually really fascinating. I have a whole theory on this. Especially with couples who have been married for many years, you tend to see them be just like, a lot more peaceful. Right. Than couples maybe that are in their younger ages. And I always ask them, especially the male partners, if these are heteronormative relationships. I say, you know, what is it that changed for you? Or, like, how have you been married this long? And almost all of them have described a moment, and they don't know that it's andropause, but they describe. Describe a moment where something shifted in them, where they started to realize, oh, she's not trying to battle me. This is my partner. This is my life partner. Let me just listen. Let me be more open to feedback. And so, actually, scientifically, it's that their bodies are changing and they also become much more sensitive in these stages of life. And so that also goes completely against what American patriarchy tells us, that we need our men to be. We need them to be strong, we need them to not cry. We need them, you know, all of these horrible ways in which we limit boys and men, but this is the particular reason why we discard elderly people in our nation.
- [52:52]
A
Wow. And also, I think this focus on reproduction that was in the fabric of this country is maybe why our government has always been so anti gay couples, heterosexual couples. Right. Because that focus on, like, reproduction means that that pairing has no value in this society.
- [53:11]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And it's also the signal, right? Any person who is non heteronormative, anybody person who lives beyond the binary that's presented to us is showcasing us that that is made up. Right. Because if there's an example that doesn't fit it, then it shows how vulnerable and weak that fabricated system is. And so that's why attacks on gay couples, especially attacks on trans people, have become especially relevant yet again. They've always been there since the beginning of American patriarchy, but they are becoming even more so now in this desire to return to something. Right. Like, what is it that President Trump is identifying, that he wants to return to? It's that original social order that we're talking about. And so the first people that he really has attacked have been trans people, because it's the first indication that something is wrong with this system. And sadly, there were so many people who disagreed with a lot of what he had to say. But the thing that they really agreed with was that there is this gender binary and that it is somehow divine and holy, and we Must protect it. And so folks didn't realize that the first step in maintaining patriarchy is protecting the gender binary with everything that you have. And that's the thing that actually allows patriarchy to continue to hurt everybody else. If you cannot divorce yourself from this notion that there is a binary, then it's going to be really difficult for you to actually find freedom from patriarchy in your own life.
- [54:50]
A
I could literally talk to you all day. I have, like, a handful of questions left. But, like, really, you're going to have to come back for a part two. I do want to talk about, like, the gender pay gap. And also, it's not something that you directly touch on on the book, but I'm sure you're aware of it, like the pink tax, because I think that's an interesting link to the gender pay gap.
- [55:08]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [55:08]
A
What is the gender pay gap?
- [55:10]
B
The gender pay gap, in its basic terms, is that men make more money than women. And in the United States, we. For the same amount of work in the same job, same title and position and levels of expertise, all of those things, all of those things could be the same. And women make less money than men. But then we also see, of course, the intersectionality of that, where Hispanic women make even less money than that white man and less than the white woman in those examples and in those studies, and that black women make less money as well. So that it kind of keeps replicating what I talked about in terms of that initial social order where, yes, white women are subjugated in American patriarchy, but in a different way than their counterparts of color.
- [55:53]
A
And then, you know, you talk about black women earning the least as compared to white women and white men. But then we have all of these studies, especially for me, in the beauty industry, I always see these slides that are like, black women outspend on beauty, you know, two times more than their white counterparts. They're buying cosmetics at 50% higher rates. It's like, well, let's. One, let's. Let's really unpack why they're buying so many more cosmetics. But I think also the pink tax is part of this, right? That women's products, you have two razor blades. One's marketed to women, one's marketed to men, and the one marketed to women is more expensive. Why? Literally, no reason. I think the famous court case was like, it was like a dry clean, right? It was like a dry cleaner. Right? And the dry cleaner, it was like for a men's shirt, it was like $10. And then for a women's Shirt, like a blouse, it was $15. And it's like, why you're cleaning the same shirt? Why is it $5 more? But it's like, well, we know women are going to pay more.
- [56:46]
B
Exactly. And also, I mean, a lot of people ask me, they're like, maybe it's not patriarchy in our nation, it's an oligarchy like that. It has more to do with capitalism. And I say, well, actually, capitalism is a tool of patriarchy.
- [56:59]
A
Right.
- [57:00]
B
And so patriarchy first, and then how do you maintain patriarchy? Like, what are all the different strategies that people can think of to protect the system as it is? One of those is going to be women don't get access to capital, and we're going to make women's lives more expensive. It's that simple. So, like, from the moment that, again, we start menstruating, we have to pay for tampons, pads, whatever it is, you know, I mean, we have obviously a lot of other options now, but even as high school students, we had to think about this. It's one of the things that keeps women from being able to, and I should say girls from going to school, because it's not just given to us. Like, if toilet paper is available in a bathroom, then why did it take up until very recent years for there to be menstrual products in bathrooms at companies, for example? And so when we're thinking of high school girls, can you afford to pay for what you need to still be able to attend school? And so these are all strategies to further protect the social order, protect the system. This is where the layer of poverty comes in and the inequity that exists in our nation. And I talked a little bit about that earlier, how this is exclusionary to people who don't have as much access to capital. Our nation has always been built that way, regardless of race.
- [58:24]
A
Yeah, yeah, so true. So true. Can we end the patriarchy conversation on a hopeful note? It's so bleak, but is there anything that gives you hope for the future? Is there anything you're seeing that you're like, you know what? We can turn this around?
- [58:39]
B
Yes, I have so much hope. I'm a very positive, optimistic person. And I think largely because I've studied this so deeply, and that's the only thing I really walk away with is hope. Because when you're so aware of how fabricated it is, how made up it is, you then just walk through life realizing how you can change it in the way you live, in the way you love your friends, your Partners and the way you raise your children, all of it, you can start living differently right now as soon as you become aware of what you are up against. And you'll start to see a transition even within yourself and how you talk about yourself. We've talked about that throughout this whole conversation. But it will have ripple effects in your life and you can start to model a world that is anti patriarchal in your communities. And so I should say that when I'm talking about what the opposite of patriarchy is, and I'm talking about an anti patriarchal system, I'm not necessarily advocating for a matriarchy, to be honest. I mean, I do think it would be a faster path to get to healing. If we had to choose it, I would choose matriarchy. But what I'm advocating for is that each of us has power rather than one group has power over all others. And so that is actually a model of American democracy. Right? Democracy tells us power is vested in the people. And so that would have to include all of the people of that nation, however. So we haven't yet seen that in the United States. We haven't experienced, experienced American democracy. But what gives me hope is that we could, for instance, if we had mandatory voting across the United States and all barriers were taken away to voting. And so when I see examples, for instance, in Texas where President Donald Trump wants to redistrict so that he can get more votes, that should be a signal to all of us, oh, he's really afraid. Because if he doesn't do something, he probably won't be able to win, right? Or have do all the things that he wants to do. And so we should all then feel really hopeful and feel like, okay, let's keep going and keep doing the thing that we've been doing. And the last thing I'll say about that is my first book. I studied three black women who were born in the early 1900s and who two of them lived up until one 1991, the other 1999. So what they witnessed in their lives, but not only what they witnessed, how they participated in the change of their nation, brings me so much hope. I feel like I'm continuing this incredible legacy of black women. Being able to see beyond what's being offered to us, being able to create that change. And that just feels like something that can carry us all forward.
- [61:29]
A
I love that. A very positive spirit spin on dark times. But I appreciate the optimism. I think it's so you can't, you can't do this work and think about this without having that optimism. I want to wind down by asking you, I love talking to these, like, hyper, successful women that are doing so many things and raising kids and, you know, have a social life. And how do you relax? How do you relax? This has become one of my most important questions that I ask my guests. Beyond, you know, what beauty products are you using? I really want to know how women are finding time to relax because I think it's something that we all struggle with.
- [61:59]
B
That's such a good question. So important. I do a lot of yoga, so having time where I am in a class with other yogis, I go to yoga at 5:45 in the morning. I like to wake up before my kids wake up because I just feel I have better energy even towards them if they're not the first thing that wakes me up. And so that's been really so important in my journey. Even throughout my pregnancies, yoga has been a consistent thing for me. And. And then I really like to wind down at the end of the night. I try to stop doing any kind of work by, you know, a normal hour, like five, maybe six. And I watch a little bit of tv. I like competition shows.
- [62:41]
A
Like I was gonna say, what are you watching? What are you watching?
- [62:44]
B
Like the Amazing Race. Like, I love those kinds of shows. I just think, and like MasterChef, just funny, you know, you don't have to think too much about it. And then doing a little bit of reading before I actually fall asleep, because I do think screens also can wake you up in a different way. And so, yeah, putting my phone on airplane mode, reading even like two or three pages of a book and then just, yeah, slowly winding down and going to sleep. And lastly, I will say, of course, like, having kids at times can feel like one of the stressors. Yes, I get that. But also, I think when you just sit in their little world and see the world through their eyes and like the things that they're pointing out, it's so amazing to just be a child again with them, you know, like seeing bubbles for the first time and like, ah. You're like, it is so cool.
- [63:34]
A
Yeah, no, it's special.
- [63:35]
B
I really embrace those moments.
- [63:37]
A
Yeah, I love it. Final question. Question I ask all of my guests on Naked Beauty. When do you feel most beautiful?
- [63:43]
B
Oh, what a great question. When I feel most beautiful. Wow. Honestly, I really arrived at a place where I do just feel so beautiful always. Like, I just, I love, for instance, like, being in athleisure. Just like, go laugh.
- [64:03]
A
Going to yoga in my Athleisure with my iced matcha latte.
- [64:06]
B
I will say, I don't like matcha. Sadly, I don't. That's a brand, potentially, but you're not fully.
- [64:11]
A
You're not fully converted to the LA lifestyle.
- [64:13]
B
Don't love the matcha. But when everyone started doing athleisure, I was like, oh, thank God. This is who I've always been. Like, I love this so, so, so much. But then, yeah, I would also say, like, the few times where if I'm gonna be on, you know, on a TV interview or a podcast interview and I get my makeup done, it's so fun. And I'm like, I love it because so rarely do you see me in makeup. So if I'm, like, wearing, like, jeans or makeup, people are like, oh, my.
- [64:36]
A
Goodness, Ana, a transformation. A transformation.
- [64:39]
B
Exactly. Yeah.
- [64:41]
A
Well, this has been such a pleasure. I cannot recommend erased enough. I hope everyone listening to this gets this book. I will link to it in the show notes. And, Ana, you have to come back because we're just. I just feel like every. Every day we're straying further and further from where we're meant to be in the beauty conversation. So, like, come back, help us get on track, help us unpack it all. I really appreciate your time.
- [65:03]
B
I'd love to. Thank you so much for having me.
- [65:06]
A
All right. That was my incredible conversation with Ana. She is just so, so brilliant. You know, it's so interesting. We met when we were in college, you know, at Stanford, having, you know, having a great Stanford experience, and then now, all of these years later, to know her in la for us to be moms together, but also just to see this incredible work that she's doing. And she brings such great attention to detail and history to all of her perspectives. It's just truly a joy. I would love to have more conversations with her on the podcast. More conversations with people in academia that are really studying the way that beauty culture has evolved. More conversations with psychiatrists. Like, this is a topic that we just have to continue unpacking and having conversation about. Let me know what you thought of today's episode. You all know I love hearing from you. And I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of Naked Beauty.
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B
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