Unveiling The Beauty Industry with Breaking Beauty Pod

Summary

Naked Beauty Podcast: Unveiling The Beauty Industry with Breaking Beauty Pod

Release Date: May 19, 2025
Host: Brooke DeVard Ozaydinli

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Introduction and Context

In the May 19, 2025 episode of the Naked Beauty Podcast, host Brooke DeVard engages in an insightful conversation with Carlene and Jill from the Breaking Beauty podcast. The episode delves deep into the intricacies of the beauty industry, exploring topics ranging from marketing strategies and cost structures to innovations in skincare and the evolving role of influencers.

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Background of Guests

Brooke introduces Carlene and Jill as veteran beauty editors with extensive experience in the magazine industry. Carlene shares her background, working at Canada's top fashion magazine, Flair, likened to the Vogue of the North. "I worked there for over a dozen years, involved in swatching products, attending press junkets, and interviewing industry icons like Pat McGrath and Marc Jacobs" (08:32). Jill complements this by highlighting their combined decades of experience, positioning them as seasoned experts in beauty journalism.

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Marketing and Branding in Beauty

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the pervasive role of marketing in the beauty industry. Carlene emphasizes, "A lot of the same moisturizers and makeup products are made at the same manufacturing facilities. It can be like Dior and Essence producing the exact same product, but the price difference is $50" (10:04). This underscores how branding and storytelling drive consumer perception and pricing, often overshadowing the actual product differences.

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Cost Structures and Markups

The conversation shifts to the economics of skincare products, where Carlene provides a breakdown: "The cost of goods, or COGS, is typically 10% of the retail price. For a moisturizer costing $100 retail, the manufacturing cost is under $10" (12:08). Jill adds, "If a product costs $8 to make, it will retail for at least $100," highlighting the substantial markups driven by marketing, packaging, and distribution expenses.

They also discuss direct-to-consumer (DTC) models versus retail partnerships. Carlene notes, "DTC is where most brands make their money, whereas selling through retailers like Sephora means sharing profits, often losing at least 30% to the retailer" (15:10). This emphasizes the financial implications of different sales channels.

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Innovations in Skincare: Exosomes and Regenerative Medicine

Carlene and Jill explore cutting-edge advancements in skincare, particularly the use of exosomes in products. Sean explains exosomes as "coming from regenerative medicine, almost like wound healing for your skin" (17:57). These innovations represent significant breakthroughs, enabling brands to offer products with tangible, science-backed benefits.

Carlene mentions, "We recommend our episode with Denday, a biotech company acquired by L'Oréal, whose technology will likely integrate into mainstream products" (19:48). This highlights the collaboration between biotech innovators and major beauty conglomerates to enhance product efficacy.

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Influencer and Celebrity Impact on Beauty Brands

The role of influencers and celebrities in shaping beauty trends is another focal point. Carlene asserts, "Makeup artists and estheticians are more effective at moving products than traditional celebrity endorsements" (25:01). They cite examples like Gloria, whose recommendations can significantly boost a brand's popularity.

Jill emphasizes the authenticity factor, "If I recommend something, I have to really, really love it. Once you've lost that trust with your audience, it's gone" (26:18). This underscores the critical balance between influencer credibility and consumer trust.

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Language Shift in Aging Skincare Products

The discussion addresses the evolving terminology in aging skincare. Carlene observes, "There's been a decline in using the term 'anti-aging,' shifting towards 'ageless skincare routines,'" (36:26). This change reflects a broader cultural shift towards embracing aging gracefully rather than combating it.

Sean adds, "Even though brands like Allure avoid the term, people still search for 'anti-aging skincare,' making SEO strategies crucial for visibility" (36:45). This highlights the tension between marketing language and consumer search behaviors.

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Inclusive Campaigns and Representation

Carlene and Jill applaud recent inclusive marketing efforts, noting campaigns that feature diverse age groups, skin tones, and backgrounds. Sean praises Beauty Project's campaign for its "diverse range of ages and women," stating, "It was brilliant in terms of tapping into people who may not be the Alex Earls of the world, but have a ton of influence" (37:47). This reflects the industry's ongoing efforts to broaden representation and cater to a wider audience.

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Case Studies: Pat McGrath and Road Beauty

The conversation delves into specific brand case studies. Pat McGrath, renowned makeup artist, is discussed extensively. Despite her brand's high valuation, Carlene expresses surprise at recent headlines questioning its direction, stating, "Pat McGrath's products are phenomenal, but her brand should still be at the absolute top" (39:29).

Road Beauty, spearheaded by Haley Baldwin, is highlighted as a successful influencer-led brand. Carlene attributes its success to effective collaborations with cosmetic chemists and maintaining product simplicity. "Her formulas are extremely basic, which works well for her demographic because it avoids overcomplicating skincare" (30:25). The brand's impressive sales figures—"$90 million in Q4 last year in just one quarter"—are cited as testament to its impactful marketing and authentic appeal (31:35).

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Future Trends in the Beauty Industry

Looking ahead, Carlene anticipates more professional makeup and hair care lines emerging, driven by makeup artists and estheticians seeking to leverage their expertise. Sean adds, "Makeup artists, especially if their name is on a product, ensures they are not compromising on quality because they need to uphold their reputation" (40:06).

Furthermore, the guests predict continued innovation in skincare, with advancements like biotechnological ingredients and personalized formulations driving future growth.

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Personal Reflections from Guests

Carlene shares her personal connection to the beauty industry, expressing, "I'm in love with this industry and what we do. There's so much beauty in being able to tell stories and inspire through beauty rituals" (45:25). Jill echoes this sentiment, highlighting the rewarding nature of authentic product recommendations and the joy of empowering others through beauty education.

Sean reflects on the cyclical nature of beauty trends, noting, "Everything has a new life on TikTok. It's just repackaging information and getting people excited in new ways" (20:04). This observation ties back to the industry's adaptability and resilience in staying relevant.

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Conclusion

The episode of Naked Beauty with Carlene and Jill from Breaking Beauty offers a comprehensive exploration of the beauty industry's current landscape and future directions. From unraveling the complexities of product marketing and pricing to celebrating innovations and fostering inclusive representation, the conversation provides valuable insights for both industry insiders and beauty enthusiasts.

Notable Quotes:

• "A lot of the same moisturizers and makeup products are made at the same manufacturing facilities. It can be like Dior and Essence producing the exact same product, but the price difference is $50." – Carlene (10:04)

• "The cost of goods, or COGS, is typically 10% of the retail price. For a moisturizer costing $100 retail, the manufacturing cost is under $10." – Carlene (12:08)

• "Makeup artists and estheticians are more effective at moving products than traditional celebrity endorsements." – Carlene (25:01)

• "There's been a decline in using the term 'anti-aging,' shifting towards 'ageless skincare routines.'" – Carlene (36:26)

• "Pat McGrath's products are phenomenal, but her brand should still be at the absolute top." – Carlene (39:29)

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Disclaimer: Timestamps in brackets correspond to the transcript provided and serve as reference points for quoted statements.

Transcript

[Sean]

Maybe we'll clean at a bar he'll drive a funky car maybe we'll clean.

[Brooke Devard]

At a club hello, hello, this is Brooke Devard and you're listening to the Naked Beauty Podcast. It's been a while since I've done an intro at home instead of in the studio, so I feel like I'm able to chat with you all, give you an update on the latest. I have been running around town, running around the country, running around the world. I'm preparing to go to London on Monday. Believe it or not, Met Gala was incredible. I got to do so many fun things you all heard on my recap episode with Sean. I'm also very excited that I was able to wear a black designer for every single event that I attended. I wore Laquan Smith, I wore Sergio Hudson, I wore Christopher John Rogers, I wore Theophilio. All black designers. I did a different beauty look for every single event. I did a curly updo one night, then the next day long sleek ponytail. Then I did my clip in extensions. I did another updo. I just, I experiment. I had fun and I really tried to soak in the moment. Being a creator is a lot of work, but you get these tremendous opportunities to connect with like minded people, to be at fun events and parties around things like the Met Gala that feel so culturally relevant. It just reminded me why I love doing what I do. I also had a chance to connect with Dr. Alaina Jones from Human Race. You know, she's the chief dermatologist of Human Race and has been Pharrell's dermatologist as well as my dermatologist for 25 years. We did a really fun video together where she shared some of Pharrell's SK skincare secrets, which you all know from listening to this podcast. It's just about consistency. Skincare knowledge is one of the things that I feel the most passionate about educating people about. That's why I'm so excited about today's episode with Carlene and Jill from the Breaking Beauty podcast because they, like me, want to cut through all of the clutter and dispel all of the myths around skin care and how much things should cost and what the science really is that goes into products. They have been podcasting for a long time. We actually did a pod swap. So if you go to the Breaking Beauty feed, you will hear my episode on their show. Jill and Carlene are the veteran beauty editors behind Breaking Beauty, a podcast that covers the very best products, people and moments in beauty culture. Their show drops every Wednesday and They've interviewed everyone from Hailey Bieber to Tracee Ellis Ross to Jackie Aina, who's been a guest on Naked Beauty as well. Jill and Carlene have decades of experience as beauty editors between them and we're going to deep dive on all things beauty and beauty marketing today. It's a fantastic episode. Thank you all so much for listening to the show, for your support, for sharing Naked Beauty with a friend. Every time you all take a screenshot as you're listening and share it to stories and tag me, it makes me so, so happy. This is also one of the episodes that you can watch as well as listen to, so go to YouTube. Naked Beauty podcast on YouTube. Make sure you're subscribed. We're dropping video episodes weekly. It's so fun to be in studio with people. I hope you all enjoy the visuals as well as the storytelling on the audio. Thank you again so much for your support. And let's get into the episode.

[Carlene]

Foreign.

[Brooke Devard]

Beauty is brought to you by Los Angeles Tourism. Now, I moved to LA from New York City, one of the best cities in the world, over two years ago and I cannot tell you all how much I love la. And there is so much to love, starting with the food and drink options here. I love eating healthy and I'm sorry if it sounds stereotypical or cliche, but I so appreciate erawan. I appreciate Goop Kitchen. But then the diversity of food in LA is incredible. The most amazing Thai food, the best tacos I've ever had, gorgeous high end Italian restaurants. LA truly has such a vibrant food community. And don't forget about arts and culture. Did you know that Los Angeles has more museums and theaters than New York does? I love spending my afternoons at the LACMA or special Date nights at the Broad Museum where they do their after hours showings. And if Hollywood and Hollywood history is your thing, you can't forget about the iconic tours of the famous lots here in la, of the Paramount Studios lot. You could spend a full week here and still barely scratch the surface. LA just has so much to offer. Find more ways to love Los angeles@discover la.com we love LA. Let's get back to the episode.

[Jill]

All right, Jill, Carly, welcome back to Naked Beauty. This is our first time being in person together. Recording. We did our virtual episode. What, in 2020?

[Carlene]

I think so, yeah.

[Sean]

Or 2021. It's all a blur.

[Jill]

It's all a blur. I know, but you all have been at it for a while. How long have you been doing the Breaking Beauty podcast?

[Carlene]

We just celebrated Eight years in March. So we feel like we're getting to be like, veteran status. And you're pretty much there.

[Jill]

Eight years. Yeah. In 2016. So nine years, I guess.

[Sean]

Yeah. Well, congratulations also are in order for you because you won Best fashion and Beauty podcast. Yes.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Sean]

At the iHeart Awards. And I just think it's brilliant because you're, you know, a one woman show and the industry has changed a lot. So I really commend you like having this indie podcast and it's like crushing it. So congrats.

[Jill]

Thank you so much. You all are crushing it as well. And, you know, we can't let too much of the day go by without talking about the fact that Meghan Markle shared.

[Carlene]

Yes.

[Jill]

A clip from your podcast on her stories today. Yes. Because you all just interviewed her makeup artist, Correct?

[Carlene]

Yes.

[Jill]

How did this all happen?

[Sean]

Okay, so we interviewed Daniel Martin, who is a brilliant makeup artist, editorial makeup artist for many years. He's, he's based in New York. He did her wedding makeup, and he's also an ambassador for Tatcha. And so we've chatted with him over the years, but a couple months ago, we sat down with him before her show had come out on Netflix, honestly. And so we were just kind of like recapping with him about the wedding look and how iconic it was and how inspirational it was for so many women. And so I was like, okay, can you share now, like, what these products were that you used on her? And so he did tell us, which was great.

[Jill]

What did he use?

[Sean]

So he used a lot of Dior Backstage Beauty, Dior Lip Glow.

[Carlene]

Because he was a, he was an ambassador for Dior at the time. Yeah, he's using a lot of Dior.

[Sean]

Yeah. And he, he swears by Mac Lip Pencils, so I believe the shade name was stripped down. And we did make a whole, like, shop my shelf page about it and everything. So anyway, we made that clip and then the next thing you know, my phone's blowing up with my friend saying, meg, oh my God. Meghan Markle shared this clip. Oh, my God.

[Jill]

You watched her new show?

[Sean]

I did. I watched all eight episodes. And my interpretation of it is like, it's kind of exactly what I thought it was going to be. And very, like, I very much had it on while I was like, you know, cleaning my apartment. And like, you know, I was in, I was out, and Daniel is her first guest, so.

[Jill]

Oh, I did see that episode comes over and she prepares the guest house for him.

[Sean]

Yes. And he did say on our show that he legitimately does stay with her. So they are, you know, really good friends. And I, you know, I'm not really a domestic goddess. I wouldn't go that far. So I was like. I was like, I could probably make what she's making, so, you know, but she has season two already unlocked, so.

[Jill]

Go, Meghan.

[Sean]

Yeah, I'm curious. Like, you know, I could see a beauty line in her future. You know what I mean?

[Jill]

Because we all need another celebrity beauty 100%.

[Carlene]

Absolutely.

[Jill]

Well, today's conversation, I really want to go kind of behind the veil of the beauty industry, don't you think? As beauty podcasters, we sit at such a unique place. Right. Because we talk to founders, we talk to consumers, we talk to talent. I feel like we see the beauty industry from so many different lenses.

[Carlene]

Yes.

[Jill]

And we're doing this every single week. Before we get into that, though, I just want to get a brief background on both of your kind of credentials before. And, you know, while you've been doing the podcast as well.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Carlene]

So we both came from the magazine world. I worked at a magazine in Canada. It was one of the top fashion magazines called Flair. It's not around rip.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Carlene]

Any longer, but it was kind of like the Vogue of the north. Like, it was a big deal. It was iconic. I think it was around for, like, four, 45 years or something. So I grew up on it, and it was like, you know, in the days of Cindy Crawford, Naomi Campbell, Linda Evangelista on the COVID And of course, my room was, like, plastered and all of their pictures and everything. And then it was a total dream that eventually I ended up working there. I actually started at a hair magazine called Salon Magazine, and then I kind of went over to Flair. I worked there for over a dozen years, and so I was. Even then, I was, like, swatching products, going to all the press junkets. I was interviewing people like Pat McGrath and, you know, Marc Jacobs and the who's who in the industry, producing photo shoots with, like, Harry Josh and Charlotte Tilbury.

[Jill]

The golden years.

[Carlene]

Yeah, the golden years. You know, the black cars and the fancy.

[Jill]

When magazines had budgets.

[Carlene]

Yes. Oh, my God, yes. So doing all of that, and then the magazine went out of print, and that's when I was let go. And pretty, pretty quickly after that, we started the podcast. And Jill came from magazines as well.

[Sean]

Yeah, I came from magazines as well, but I. I kind of, like, saw the writing on the wall, so I got out a little bit sooner. So I worked in digital publishing for a while, and then I've done a lot of broadcast. I was on a national lifestyle show as, like, their beauty contributor for a dozen years as well. So I've done editorial, print, digital, broadcast, broadcast, podcast. And Carlene and I, we never worked directly together at the same magazine. We worked across the hall from each other. And that's. We got together and we were like, where's the white space? And where. Where could we, you know, use all of these? Basically, like, leverage all the connections that we have and tell stories in beauty? And the joke is on us because we initially said, we're too old for YouTube. Let's start a podcast. And now it's all come for full circle, all podcast and everything. And YouTube is the number one podcast platform. So here we are, everyone. You can catch us on video.

[Carlene]

Bring on the good lights.

[Jill]

Okay, so lifting the veil on the beauty industry again. We hear it from all angles. What has been the most surprising thing you have learned about this industry in all of your years of doing these interviews and before the podcast?

[Carlene]

Well, I think it's all marketing. That's what we know. It really and truly is all marketing. And I think that a lot of people probably do know by now that a lot of the same, like, moisturizers and makeup and all of those things are made at the same manufacturing facilities. That it can be like a garland, whatever it is, going down the line, and right next to it, it might be, you know, Essence or something like that.

[Jill]

And the price difference will be $50 for the exact same product.

[Carlene]

Yes, exactly. And I think there was actually. There was one cosmetic chemist I was talking to, and she was saying how, you know, because there's this book of, like, stuff you can white label. And they're like, are you interested in this eyel? And it had, like, the Dior logo on it. And they were like. Because the cost for that would be, you know, whatever. It was like pennies on the dollar. She was buying for, like, a cheaper mass market brand, and it would have been, like, the same pencil. So it just really tells you that it truly is all marketing storytelling. And I think that's why the mark. The. The whole industry has evolved to where we are today, though. So I don't know that it's fully, like, a bad thing, because where we're at now, like, if I just think about how the industry's evolved, is that we have something for absolutely everyone, like, however you want to be connected to this. And I think, particularly when you look at why investors have gotten so involved in beauty and stuck their nose in, I think Honestly, a lot of, like, bros in Silicon Valley were like, this is like sports for guys. Like, this is how big of a deal this is for this, this community, this demographic, this industry. And, like. And I think that's why now you truly see something for every age group. You see forever, you know, regardless of the color of your skin, your values, what you agree. Maybe you're not going to find all of that within one brand, but you're going to find it somewhere.

[Jill]

Right, Right.

[Carlene]

You know?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jill]

The industry has grown so much. Your point about markups is definitely interesting. I have not interviewed a cosmetic chemist yet on the show. I need to do that.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Jill]

Could you give us, like, a. A better idea or example of what markups are? So, like, for a moisturizer that costs this much, it actually costs this much to formulate. Yeah.

[Carlene]

Well, I mean, you might have a sense of this as well. I would say I've learned this better because I'm actually developing a skincare brand. It's going to be, again, speaking of demographics, it's for women over 45. And it's really. It really comes from my editorial background because I haven't seen anything out there that I feel is, like, very cool for this age group. So that's really. You see it for makeup brands, but not for skincare.

[Jill]

Skincare. And isn't it so ironic that all of the skincare ads feature women in their twenties?

[Sean]

Yes, exactly.

[Carlene]

I'm so done with it.

[Sean]

Yeah. Or. Or women over of a certain age, they're just like, you're in menopause.

[Carlene]

Exactly.

[Sean]

It's not the only thing you know about you. After 45, we're not sent out to pasture. You know what I mean?

[Carlene]

Pause. Would you like to use this? And it's like, I don't want to make it my personality. Like, I just want to see, like, everybody else, myself reflected and like, you know, having cool conversations and being inspired in my beauty ritual. So that's really what it's about. And I think you can probably relate to this because you're very creative, too. Is like the. The creative directing behind it and having people feel like it's a community. So going back to that is just going through this. This development process. So they say that you want the cost of goods, the cogs, as it's known to be 10% of the retail price. No more than 10% of the retail price. Or another way to look at it would be like 20% of the wholesale price. So everything beyond that is marketing, budget, like, cost for other things, shipping, whatever. So your average, like moisturizer or whatever is typically under $10 to cost to actually manufacture. It's like eight or nine dollars.

[Jill]

Right. And it's going to be. If it costs eight or nine dollars, then it's going to be retail for what, at least 100, right?

[Carlene]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sean]

So that.

[Carlene]

So that's truly. Now having said that, those are real costs. Like that's not just all going in the person's pocket, but the cost to get a consumer, the cost to like to market to them. Especially now in the digital age when you have to pay for, you know, all of the ads, you have to pay for views, all of that. And then of course there's factor that in presentation and the campaign and, and just to get those eyeballs because it's such a. An incredibly competitive market. So listen, if you were selling at a flea market, you might do very well. But if you're selling in the real world, that is, that's truly what it costs. And of course now with the tariffs, like, don't even get me started.

[Jill]

Right.

[Carlene]

Because that's another build in. But, but the other thing to note is like DTC apparently is what they. That's where everybody makes their money. Yeah. Because that's the other part. If you go into Sephora or if you go into other major retailers, they want their cut. And it's.

[Sean]

I think it's like, I think it's like at least 30. Yeah. The whole of the retail price. So. But I will say there are some people who have like tried to flip all of this on their head. Like the ordinary, for instance. They're like manufacturing all in house, which is why can do the rock bottom prices. They're doing that like economies of scale or whatever. But just so you know, your audience knows, one of the cheapest ingredients to manufacture, to formulate with hyaluronic acid. So if you see 300 bucks, forget it, guys.

[Carlene]

You're getting.

[Sean]

You can buy whatever you want. But I'm just saying it's not. It's not. It's not.

[Carlene]

Not an expensive ingredient.

[Sean]

No glycerin.

[Carlene]

Same. And that's why like one of the best face cleansers going is the prequel one.

[Jill]

I love prequels.

[Carlene]

Yeah, they're freaking good.

[Jill]

So good.

[Sean]

It's a giant bottle.

[Carlene]

A giant bottle. It's a giant bottle, like this big. It's like a huge silver bullet. And it actually says face and body cleanser. Like, I don't use it on my cleanser.

[Sean]

18 bucks at Target.

[Carlene]

And I would never normally put anything on My face. That's for body as well, but it's legit. It's mostly glycerin, not expensive. So it's. What is it, 20 bucks or something?

[Sean]

I think that, yeah, the cleanser is $18 at Target.

[Jill]

Now, do you think there are luxury skincare or makeup brands that are really worth it like that? Do you have like premium ingredients and really are worth the additional cost?

[Sean]

I think. Well, I think there's like proprietary technology coming out certainly now with like exosomes, which is like coming from biotechnology. So like plated as an example that I think they have. They're from regenerative medicine.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Sean]

So it's like that is not going to be accessible to everybody. And, and so if it is that new and that kind of innovation, a true breakthrough where it's in Time magazine as the top, one of the top.

[Carlene]

For the research where, yeah, when you're, if you're launching with a retinol, that research is out there. You can buy the ingredient and they have the kind of clinicals built in.

[Jill]

Right.

[Carlene]

But if you're proprietary, if it's that new, where you are actually doing the research, that's expensive.

[Sean]

I think also K18 would be an example of that. Their first hair mask, because that was biotechnology as well. First to market, you know.

[Carlene]

And that plated one, everyone's talking about, that plated serum, the exosomes.

[Jill]

Okay, let's.

[Sean]

And that's like 350, everyone.

[Jill]

So are you also familiar with 8th day?

[Carlene]

Yes, yes.

[Jill]

It's like a regenerative serum and the doctor who made it was treating cancer patients. And there are a few other like exosome forward serums that I'm here and they're always above $300. But what do exosomes do for your skin that is so revolutionary?

[Sean]

So because it is coming from regenerative medicine, it's like, it's, it's, it's almost like wound healing for your skin. That's the idea. And when you hear about growth factors, how it's been explained, to me, growth factors is like one letter of the Alphabet. Exosomes are the whole Alphabet. And, and they're able to also, you know, teach your, your skins that skin cells kind of like get a bit chaotic as they age and they're able to kill off those chaotic cells and make everything more harmonious. So they're working more like they did when they were younger. This longevity movement, movement in skincare. It's all we're hearing about right now. And I think targeting that if you get that on lock because everybody just wants to look like themselves. But 10 years ago, you know, like, nobody wants to spend $25,000 on a neck lift or whatever. You just want to look like you did before. Yeah. So if they get this on lock.

[Carlene]

You know, it is incredibly confusing though. And we actually did do a few episodes with founders from some of these brands that are really leading in this space. So if you're interested in this, like, highly technical how the science works, I'd recommend our episode with Denday. They, they were part of company, they're a biotech and they got acquired by l' Oreal. So I feel like their whole technology is going to be spread throughout that umbrella brand. There's one from Oneskin. It was founded by four female scientists. And that's really cool. And definitely check out the plated epis episode. Okay, that's an interesting one. Because these growth factors and exosomes can be sourced from different places. Like you can get vegan or you can get biotech where there's like one sample of it and it's repeated like endlessly synthetically. But the plated one is actually human derived.

[Sean]

It's human platelet derived.

[Carlene]

They use like blood banks. So I think that's why it's so expensive. That was, I think that was our title was like, would you use human derived platelets on your face? But like people, the results, the results are there.

[Sean]

So yeah, it's a very exciting time. And like, I do think what, you know, just what you're saying, what surprises you. Like, I don't think I quite realized until I became a beauty reporter that just how cyclical absolutely everything is. You know, whether it's like popping off with a vitamin C serum or K Beauty, which we wrote about 15 years.

[Jill]

Ago back because of Tik Tok.

[Sean]

Everything has a new life on Tik Tok. And it's funny, I have all of the magazines that I contributed to. Like I saved my archive and I even saved some old allures and I was looking at them the other day and I was like this title that on this cover from 2008 would be a tick tock video today. You know, it's just repackaging, repackaging info, repackaging, getting people excited about new branding, you know, telling the story in a new way. But a lot of the same ideas.

[Jill]

Yes. You know, and you all mentioned K18, which has those biomimetic peptides that basically repair your hair. Like, it's not just giving the illusion of repaired hair, it is actually repairing Damaged hair.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

And it's a leave in product, right?

[Carlene]

Yes, it's. It's a great product. We also had them on the show to explain the technology because we're like, I'm lost. But. But it is effective and it really does work. The K18 is really good also at Prey. A Prey.

[Jill]

You know, that, like a Prey gel.

[Carlene]

X E par E P R E S. Oh, okay. The hair brand.

[Jill]

Okay.

[Carlene]

So that's another really great one that came out. We'll talk about that on our show. And I have a little scoop on that. But both of those are, like, amazing.

[Jill]

Okay.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jill]

And. But then when it comes to protein strengthening, that also extends to nails as well.

[Carlene]

Yes.

[Jill]

Which. Between my gel manicures, I do like to do a nice, like, strengthening protein treatment for my nails. You guys have any that you like?

[Sean]

I. I am so guilty of just, like, being in the salon, like, getting my shellacry up. But there is a new Essie product that. That kind of blew me away when they were showing me the before and afters. And it would be like, $10. It's called. They designed this product specifically for. To address UV gel manicure damage.

[Jill]

Interesting.

[Sean]

It's called Essie to the Rescue UV gel damage nail repair treatment. $12.

[Jill]

I'm gonna try that.

[Sean]

Fun. It's like Walgreens. Everyone. Give it a go. And again, Essie is owned by l' Oreal, so they are, like, researching all of these things. So it's like, to address peelings, weak nails, brittle nails.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Sean]

And I was pretty impressed with the before and afters I saw, although I have not tried it myself.

[Jill]

Yeah, yeah.

[Carlene]

And that brand. That brand at Prey. I always say it wrong. They are launching a new nail product that's supposed to be repairing and, like, has a lot of science behind it. It's supposed to repair your nails in seven days. So I'm like, I'm trying it.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Okay. That's very exciting. I mean, we. I'm sure your inbox looks like my inbox.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Carlene]

Yes.

[Jill]

You just get so many pitches. Everyone thinks what they have is, like, so unique and groundbreaking, and it very rarely is true.

[Sean]

100.

[Jill]

But it's just exciting and reassuring to know that people are, like, using science and pushing things forward and innovating.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Because we need that.

[Sean]

I think so. I think this is really an interesting time. And, you know, I think during the pandemic in 2020, it was, like, explosion of skincare. People discovered skincare routines.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And then I certainly felt like there was just there was a lot of innovation. There was. People were embracing the five step routine, 10 to 10 step or just getting acquainted with it and. But I did kind of feel like last year it was like things had stagnated a bit. So I'm excited now that we're taught in 2025 there's just new. Feels like there's newer things to talk about.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Question for both of you. And it's always so hard for me to remember all of the interviews I've done, but has there been an interview you've done where you've heard from either a brand founder or someone behind the scenes that just like completely changed the way you think about the industry or like really kind of like blew your mind in terms of. Of the way that they were doing what. Whether it's their own brand or the way they were working behind the scenes.

[Sean]

It's a good question.

[Carlene]

I would say most recently, like those ones that I mentioned with plated and all that, like what they're really doing is looking at actual skin cells under a microscope. Like not even skin cells, but like they're reproducing skin under a microscope to be able to test how this. This skin care is working so they can actually tell, I think much more than they were able to in the past. So I do think we're going to start seeing much more effective skin care than we have. And I think that's also where we're at is like we're constantly tweaking and evolving products to make them better. And that's why we keep going, that's why this industry keeps moving, because of that innovation, which, I mean, I'm kind.

[Jill]

Of here for, of course.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Well, we have to talk about the relationship between brands and influencers.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Jill]

How much do you think influencers or creators talking about a product moves the needle?

[Sean]

I think it's kind of everything I think it is. You see, you know, I think there was a little bit of hesitation around TikTok, like back in December when they were talking about maybe it not being around anymore. But I think it's just a huge part baked into marketing strategies now. And they are their own billboards. You know, someone like an Alex Earle or someone like a Gloria, they will. Gloria can make or break a brand, you know.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Sean]

It's very powerful and one voice compared to like a magazine where we worked at, where it was a brand. Like more. Way more people are tuning into Gloria than. Ever read one of my articles.

[Jill]

Right.

[Sean]

Ever.

[Jill]

For people listening. She's the one that does this is the darkest shade.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jill]

And then she. And she's called out a lot of brands for not having, you know, an adequate shade range. You all had a chance to interview her in Texas.

[Sean]

We did, yes.

[Carlene]

So that episode, I think when this comes out, it'll be. That episode will be up.

[Jill]

Okay. I can't wait to check it out.

[Carlene]

Yeah. It's really.

[Sean]

She's very powerful.

[Carlene]

She's a force.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Carlene]

Absolute force.

[Jill]

And I mean, I think it. And I think podcasters are included in this as well. Right. When you hear someone speak about something, I certainly, I'm sure you all feel the same way. If I recommend something, I have to really, really love it.

[Sean]

Talk about this all the time because.

[Jill]

Once you've lost that trust with your audience, it's gone.

[Sean]

Yeah. So we do monthly editorial episodes that we call hashtag damn good. What are. What's sort of like making the cut. So it could be anything from the new spring launches to our drugstore favorites or the best esthetician founded brands we've ever tried, like various different topics. And trust me when I tell you, we are testing every single damn thing. Way more than in the magazine days, you know, for sure.

[Jill]

And also in the magazine days when this is something that I learned from interviewing beauty editors. Julie Wilson, who was at Essence at the time when I interviewed her, she was talking about how things get included in Roundup simply because they look good and match. Like the color scheme, like we need. The art director has some pink in it.

[Sean]

Yes, the art director is making the calls sometimes.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Crazy.

[Carlene]

It's like a color story. And typically it's even just like, it's like royal blue or Eve Klein blue. And it's really just the packaging like it, it doesn't even matter what's inside. And those roundups online really drive me nuts when it's like 18 of the best, you know, like poor minimizing serums and it's like 18 of the best. Don't you mean every one you could find?

[Jill]

Right. Well, and that's because so many of those outlets now have to rely on affiliate revenue to keep their publications afloat. So they are jam. Jamming these articles with as many links as possible.

[Carlene]

Yeah, there's no actual editing going on. And so. Yeah, I just don't know how useful that is.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Sean]

Yeah, it's a lot. But yeah, I think, and I don't think influencer marketing is. Is going anywhere. But it's interesting to me how many influencers, how many influencer brands don't necessarily pop in Beauty and Addison Rae, a Charlie d' Amelio, the second biggest followed person on Tick Tock.

[Jill]

And I didn't even know Charlie had a. The beauty line, to be quite honest with you.

[Sean]

Right. So that's. That is fascinating to me.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Because just those numbers, you can. It's probably somebody comes to them from a con, like some kind of incubator, whatever those are called, and says, here's what we'd like to do. This is the cut you'd get and what have you. And sometimes it just does not rise to the occasion. Yeah.

[Jill]

I mean, the absolute, like, fervor around Haley.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Baldwin.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Jill]

And road beauty.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

I.

[Jill]

My son goes to school where the road pop up was.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Jill]

And from 9am to 5pm a line wrapped around the corner. Blocks and blocks and blocks of people lining up just to experience the road products.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

And I was trying to think, when have I ever seen lines like this.

[Carlene]

Was like that when Glossier first launched.

[Jill]

Back in the day. And it's interesting because the Glossier store was. It's kind of like around the corner from the. The road pop up.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Carlene]

Okay.

[Jill]

And I drove by and it's like crickets. It's not cricket.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Yeah, but it's not. It's just. I think about the Fenty launch, when she first launched all of those foundations.

[Sean]

People were like, watershed moment.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

I remember because I used to work across from the Times Square Sephora, and it was like the shelves were like, people were just going crazy for it.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

But, like, what Haley's done with road has been incredible. I know you guys have interviewed Haley.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

For the podcast. What do you think has given her that, like. Like, special magic touch that makes people love Road so much?

[Carlene]

I think it's two things. One is that she is just a very effective influencer, you know, and not. Not everyone is. Like, she just does it very well the way. It's very aspirational. People want to look like her, period. And they will. Like, if she recommends something, people are going to do it because at the end of the day, you know, and we know that Ron Robinson, who's also been on our show, Brilliant Chemist, he created those. And she had nothing to do. Like, I'm sorry. She may have been in the lab. She may have been. Okay, this, that, the other. You cannot tell me that she really knew about ingredients. She didn't know.

[Jill]

Right.

[Sean]

And that's okay.

[Jill]

Like, she doesn't know, but she knew to hire the right people.

[Sean]

That's right.

[Carlene]

But this is. It is like, sometimes I think where celebrities have gotten wise versus, like five years ago is that they need other people to co sign who actually know what they're doing.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Carlene]

So you need a solid cosmetic chemist. You need the Charlotte parlors of the world trying your stuff, vetting them first. Gloria, whoever it is, you want to get in front of it and be like, okay, you're co signing this. You co signing this. All of these safety measures are up, so they kind of can't lose. Like, if you do, that's on you these days. Because that is the formula. Because if you really break it down. Her formulas are extremely basic. They are extremely. Which actually works well for that age demographic because more people are putting stuff on their face that's ruining their skin than stuff that's actually helping their skin. And so Ron knows that and stripped it back.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Carlene]

And give something that actually makes sense for that demo. And so it's working.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Yeah. But also, like, she just. Yeah, they, it's, it's the clean girl aesthetic, the glazed donut. She's, she's living that. Yeah. You know, and the, the sales are there to prove it. Like, she's just kind of like turned rocket fuel on for that brand. Now is $90 million of sales in Q4 last year in just one quarter.

[Jill]

90 million.

[Sean]

So it's like. And she hasn't even been in retail yet.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

There's no Sephora.

[Sean]

There's no, no, no. Ulta. I mean, I, I think Sephora is probably coming for her, like, or she's. I'm sure they're collaborating. Yeah, I can't. It would be the natural.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Ulta Beauty, though, is also. It's like, don't sleep on Ulta Beauty, because Sacred is now. Oh, my God, I love that in Ulta Beauty. And I was like, okay, Ulta Beauty. Yeah, I, I, I think because I've always lived closer to Sephora as I just like, yeah, I'm like a Sephora girl.

[Carlene]

But let's not forget that Sephora also has rare and.

[Sean]

No, I mean, I look.

[Jill]

Oh, I don't know. There's like a beef there. I don't know.

[Carlene]

A big deal. But that beef is like, still going in the, just in the comments and in the fan base and all of that. So I really don't know. But is it just. Would it kick up drama for Sephora? Who's got the end cap? I don't know.

[Sean]

I don't know.

[Jill]

I don't know how deep the beef goes.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

I don't know if it's A Kendrick Drake. You guys are Canadian. Are you still, Are people still liking Drake out there?

[Sean]

Yeah, they kind of are. They're either coming, they're feeling a bit, bit defensive of him now. I think they're kind of like trying to support him, but he's not doing himself any favors because he's like, you know, these lawsuits and stuff, it's like, you know, it doesn't, he doesn't look cool at all.

[Jill]

He's, he, I think he loves beauty. Like, I see he does little hair treatments and he's getting his eyebrows done.

[Sean]

From Caudalie go viral like one of their skincare products.

[Jill]

So I need to get that interview.

[Sean]

I know. And I mean he has his candles. The Better world.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Fragrances is his fragrance brand.

[Carlene]

And he also like under obo, couldn't he do like. Yeah, he should start branching out into other things.

[Jill]

He should.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Carlene]

I think we're, I think we're on to something. Yeah.

[Jill]

Great medicine.

[Carlene]

Yeah. Exactly.

[Jill]

What are tactics that brands use to drive demand? So we know that one of them is limited time only or like limited supply drops of what, what tactics have you all seen can be effective in terms of driving demand?

[Carlene]

I think there's definitely the sold out, you know, the wait list to hold. So sold out and wait list, which we know, like if you're a medium, again we're learning this MOQs your minimum order quantities can be, I think usually there's a minimum of 5,000 would be the lowest you can go. But if you work with a big company then you might be looking at, you know, I don't know, fifty thousand, a hundred thousand. It gets cheaper the more that you order. But if you're like a startup, you're probably going to start smaller. So. But yeah, if you only order 5,000, then that's going to sell out a lot quicker than a hundred thousand.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Carlene]

So it's like you're like sold out, but it's really not an even playing field with a competitive product necessarily. Do you know what I mean?

[Jill]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean I've ran into that when making my own product. The minimum order quantities, it's like, like, yeah, they're so high. Yeah, they're so high.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

What are other things that brands do to kind of like drive demand? Do you think that celebrity placements make a big difference? One of the things that I see for the Oscars coverage or, you know, it'll be like the skin was prepped with, yeah, this skincare and I'm like, do people care?

[Sean]

Does that move I don't think that that does. I don't. I don't. I think they can send a press release out to it and maybe like a very celebrity focused publication in style people. They might pick it up. But I've heard from brands that that can cost anywhere. It's.

[Jill]

It.

[Sean]

The product placement is around 50k.

[Jill]

That's crazy.

[Sean]

It's a lot.

[Jill]

Be like, Cynthia Eriva's skin is prepped with Clinique and she's not.

[Sean]

Yeah. And she's not sharing it. Right. It's just like, what they're using behind the scenes. So I think that's a little tough.

[Jill]

Does that money go to. Does it go to the makeup artist?

[Sean]

I think it does, but they would definitely have. I mean, I don't know all the inner workings, but I'm sure they're not doing that without some kind of approval from the team, the talent. But I don't know exactly. But certainly I think brands are looking to partner with, like, a hung Van Gogh or Anina park or Daniel Martin or whatever. Because makeup artists and estheticians, what we've learned over the years is they really move the product.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Sean]

Versus a celebrity. If. If Daniel Martin is on here and he's saying, this Dior lip glow is amazing and it was perfect for the wedding day, it will sell out. Or an esthetician. This is like, transforms the skin. This exfoliator is the best one I've ever tried. Watch it go through the roof.

[Jill]

Yes. Okay, let's talk about how skincare brands have approached aging and what we've seen shift. Because I've seen a decline in language like anti aging. But I think to your point earlier, Jill, everyone wants to look like themselves, but 10 years younger.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Jill]

What shifts have you seen in the aging skin care conversation?

[Sean]

It's an interesting point because I think there was a movement where, like, Allure said definitively, we're not using the word anti aging anymore. But the truth is, like, that's what people are googling. That's. My girlfriends are going to me, what can I do about this? Or, like, you know, it's just we. The programming is so deep.

[Jill]

It's very deep.

[Sean]

It's hard to get away from it. As much as I would like to say ageless skincare routine, that people are like, what do I do for my wrinkles? My 11s, you know, and it's not.

[Carlene]

Just how deep it. That language runs within us, but within SEO.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Carlene]

SEO juice. Like, I remember when we interviewed Dr. Sherene Idris, formerly known as Pillow talk.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Carlene]

She was saying how she wanted. She never wanted to use the term anti aging on her website, but that's what people are Googling.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Carlene]

You know, so if you're missing, like, if she's not being seen on the search results, then that's not good for business.

[Sean]

But I will say some things that I do, like seeing is representation in campaigns. So, like, in Beauty Project, they just did a great campaign with a lot of influencers, and I thought it was brilliant because it was everyone from Shop with Caroline to makeup artist Kelly. She's Kelly. I can't remember her last name, but she's in New York. Women of all ages. All. Yes.

[Carlene]

Races.

[Sean]

And I thought that was brilliant in terms of, like, tapping into people who may not be the Alex Earls of the world, but they have a ton of influence. And it was a diverse range of ages and women, and I loved it. That was brilliant. It was like. What's that called? Wheat Pasted. All over New York, they did a big party. All of these people are coming, you.

[Jill]

Know, it was very well done. And not in beauty. The Project moisturizer is phenomenal. Extreme cream.

[Sean]

I travel. I travel with it. I have it.

[Jill]

It's so good.

[Carlene]

Very well priced.

[Jill]

Very, very well done. And it reminds me of the Augustinus spotter.

[Carlene]

That's what it's supposed to be a dupe for.

[Jill]

Oh, is it?

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Okay. See, I didn't even realize that.

[Carlene]

Oh, interesting.

[Sean]

Yeah, it's.

[Jill]

It's just the formula. It's so silky. It's so great. I wish we could get a little bit of a smaller bottle. Yeah, the big pink.

[Sean]

Oh, yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

It's a little large.

[Sean]

They have a travel size.

[Jill]

Oh, really? It's.

[Sean]

I took it with me, and it's still the same premise where it's the glass exterior and the little guy that is the refill. So you are still traveling with glass.

[Jill]

Right.

[Sean]

But, yeah, it's the aesthetics. Yeah, Totally hear you.

[Carlene]

But I do feel, I will say I think we've made a lot of strides in makeup. As I mentioned earlier, makeup companies that have gotten more age inclusive. We've seen that with merit and 1999 and Jones Road and even. Yeah. Sarah Creel Atelier Westman. There's a lot of them. But I think with skin care, marketers don't really know how to do it because they're like, we can put makeup on these women and make them, like, look good. What are we gonna do for skin care? And it's like, people haven't really sorted that out. I Think interesting. So I think that's where it's like they're still not nailing it. That's. That's the niche I'm going to try to build.

[Jill]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Sean]

I love that.

[Jill]

I love your product evolves there. Do you think we're going to see more celebrity led brands, More dermatologist led brands? But also I think makeup artist founded makeup brands too.

[Carlene]

A thousand percent.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Carlene]

It's all happening.

[Sean]

This is what I'm saying about, like, what we've learned in 400 episodes, even just if we're talking about simply like links that are clicked on, it is estheticians, when they recommend something, it moves or makeup artist, and it just makes sense. Makeup artists, especially if their name is on a product, it's like they are not messing about. They're, you know, they want to be able to use it on their celebrity.

[Carlene]

They can't use crap.

[Sean]

Yeah. They needed to have the performance. They have a reputation to uphold. And for that, I think we're gonna see. We've just kind of touched the surface on that.

[Carlene]

Yeah. You know, and we've done some interviews. We know that there are some in the bag. There's more coming.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Carlene]

So there will be professional makeup lines coming. More of them. Professional hair care brands. More of them are coming.

[Sean]

But what's interesting, we were kind of chatting about this in the car, and I'd be curious to get your take the Pat McGrath of it all. She's been getting some interesting headlines recently about maybe her brand. It was once a billion dollar valuation. And I think the headline I read was like, what is happening with the brand? And that's an example of somebody who really should be, you know, absolutely crushing it. And maybe it's lost its way a bit. I don't know.

[Jill]

Yeah. I mean, I think the Pat McGrath products are phenomenal.

[Sean]

They are.

[Jill]

They. They really do stand out in this scene where everything's kind of like the same. When I. Especially when I go to Sephora and I, like, go to see all the different makeup, I'm like, a lot of you all are making the same stuff.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

So I think she really does have a unique value prop. But I think that as other brands have caught up, it's like, you know, like that mothership palette when it first came out, nothing like it. But now you've got Danessa Myricks making these gorgeous palettes as well. There's been, like, more competition, I think.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jill]

And that now her appointment with Louis Vuitton.

[Sean]

Yeah. What do you think about that?

[Jill]

I'M just so fascinated. I heard, like, whispers about it, like, a long time ago without her name attached.

[Sean]

I see.

[Jill]

I'm very excited to see.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Jill]

What happens. Because, you know, the other thing I've been thinking about is how Pharrell had human race or still has human race. And he's at Louis Vuitton now. And I'm like, oh, I wonder if they're. If LVMH is going to fold in his skincare line.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Jill]

Now that, like, Louis Vuitton is focusing on makeup, skincare, it feels like there's something going on there.

[Sean]

Yeah. It is interesting how many designer makeup brands have come out between Prada.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Sean]

Celine. Yeah. Louis Vuitton's obviously jumping in there.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And it's funny how these makeup artists.

[Carlene]

Course.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah. How the makeup artist, like Violette works with Garland, but she has her own brand.

[Jill]

Right.

[Sean]

And it's just. We were talking about that. It's a bit like The Robbing Peter PayPal. I don't know. You know, like.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Sean]

We're like, how do you make sense?

[Carlene]

I really think Girlne probably funded Violette fr. Like, interesting for gig. Right. And part. So that's why I was part of.

[Sean]

Like, like, not officially.

[Jill]

Oh. But like, the income from that allows her to then make.

[Sean]

Yeah, well, sure.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Carlene]

Right. Because she. She was like, very self funded and started very small and all of that. So I was like, oh, it's interesting. Like, Pat McGrath going to. Maybe it's not related, but I think the thing with Pat McGrath, in my opinion, because we know she's a genius. And again, if you've been in the game for a long time, it's like.

[Sean]

She'S still our number.

[Carlene]

When I went backstage at. In New York Fashion Week, Paris Fashion Week, all of that, like, it. It was her, like, that story from Vogue where she had the bazillion trunks, how many trunks she carries to each Fashion Week speak. It's like she's the master. There is no doubt. No doubt. So her line should be at the absolute top. But I think what it is is she's notoriously shy.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Carlene]

And she doesn't speak yes.

[Jill]

As podcasters who have all tried to get. Yes.

[Sean]

Right. It's like we're all like, get in line. Get in line.

[Carlene]

You know, she. She is. She's quite shy. And I just think in this day and age, that's really hard. You know, like, if you go to the Pat McGrath Instagram page, like, for the most part, it's not her.

[Jill]

Right.

[Carlene]

And it's everybody's faces but not hers.

[Jill]

Right. And then you're competing with like, Patrick Ta, who's like, you know.

[Carlene]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Such and such creator videos. Doing tick tocks, dancing on a boat.

[Carlene]

Exactly. But, like, honestly, what resonates with me. But I'm a different generation. I will say. But I love it when the makeup artist is putting the makeup on themselves.

[Sean]

Gucci, like, I love it.

[Carlene]

I love a Katie Jane Hughes.

[Jill]

We love, we love Katie. But. But I will say I do love that Pat doesn't wear makeup.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Like, just. It's just kind of like she's just so separate. It's like her creation in her art, but she's not like, in it.

[Sean]

Yeah. I think someone else who struggles with that is. Is makeup by Mario. I think he, he is much more behind the scenes and stuff, but, like, he has to do the more front facing stuff. And he's, you know, he's, he's, he's doing himself out of his show. It's hard. It's really hard.

[Carlene]

Do it. What would be amazing would be to hear more of Pat's tips. You know what I mean? Like, hear her. I've interviewed her before. I did one of her makeup tricks yesterday that I remember. Do you know her teaching me about, which is like, I had too much gloss and makeup on my face and I just used a tissue to, like, pat it down. And that's what she used to do at Dolce and Gabbana because it. Just to get that heaviness of makeup and get the feather light look. So it's like, like, we just need more of that.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jill]

I love that little tissue.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jill]

I could talk to you all. All day long before we wrap. I would love to hear, when do you feel your most beautiful?

[Sean]

This is a good one. I think I might have given you the same answer the last time I talked to you. But it's honestly, like, when I'm laughing, which usually means I'm like, with my friends or with people I love, and it's like, I think a big part of my personality. So it's when I feel like probably the most comfortable and the most beautiful.

[Carlene]

Yeah, I feel the most beautiful right after I get blepharoplasty or like, enough for TD lift, which I did the other day. A great blowout. No, No. I don't know. I feel, I feel like when I'm kind of like. I don't know, I guess like living my best life, just like doing what we're doing. We're so fortunate to. We are to be doing the job that we love. And I just, like, I just think there's so much beauty in that. I'm in love with this industry and, and what we do. And, yeah, I love it. Thank you for having us on the show because this is, it's a beautiful thing.

[Jill]

Yes, yes. Thank you all so, so much. And I'm excited for more of my audience to check out the freaking beauty podcast.

[Sean]

Yeah, we're having you on. So everybody come over, check out Brooke's conversation. We're talking about the best and maybe some worst beauty innovation.

[Jill]

Yes. It's gonna be a good one. All right. Thank you.

[Sean]

Thank you.

[Brooke Devard]

I never thought I would be this obsessed with the toilet, but here we are. We installed the Kohler Vale Smart toilet right before I gave birth. And for any postpartum moms listening, you know how those first few weeks can be. This toilet honestly made my recovery so much more comfortable. In the middle of the night, when you stumble into the bathroom, you don't want to turn on harsh lights that wake you up. The Vail nightlight glows this soft blue light. The seat automatically lifts and it's beautifully warm. You just sit down and do your thing and then the magic happens. The Vail Smart toilet has this little remote with customizable cleansing features that wash you and even gently dry you with warm air. You literally don't need toilet paper. It sounds silly, but this toilet completely upgraded my day to day life.

[Carlene]

Life.

[Brooke Devard]

It's luxury, but in the most functional, practical way. And honestly, it's no surprise that Kohler partnered with Laura Kim, someone who knows great design. As the co creative director of Oscar de la Renta and Mons. I love that Kohler partnered with someone like Laura to show how design can transform even the most unexpected objects like a toilet. Discover the Kohler Vail Smart toilet and go behind the scenes of their Laura Kim [e-mail].

[Unknown]

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[Sean]

Optimize your nutrition this year with Factor America's number one Ready to Eat meal service. Factor's Fresh Never Frozen meals are dietitian approved. Ready to eat in just two minutes. Choose from 40 weekly options across eight dietary preferences like calorie smart, protein plus and keto. Eat [e-mail] Listen50 and use code Listen50 for 50 off plus free shipping on your first box. Factor meals code Listen50.

[Carlene]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Max Rushton]

Hello American podcast listeners, Max Rushton here from the Guardian Football Weekly, which I think you should give a listen. It is good. It comes out three times a week and the podcast delivers you analysis, news, both the good and the bad from the Beautiful Game and maybe even the occasional look off. He's angry about everything.

[Sean]

He doesn't have a great poker face, does he? I would like to play cards with Bruno Fernando.

[Max Rushton]

You can listen to the Guardian Football Weekly wherever you get your podcasts. Hopefully see you soon.

[Carlene]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcast everywhere. Acast.com.