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NASP Dialogues
Catalysts in Conversation – Ep. 5 – Youth & Social Media
00:34:28
NASP President, Peter Faustino, discusses the impact of social media use on young people and how school psychologists can share that information with students and families. This episode features a conversation with Nicole Owings-Fonner, the Director of the American Academy of Pediatrics’ Center of Excellence on Social Media and Youth Mental Health.
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- [00:06]
A
Welcome to Catalysts in Conversation, presented by the national association of School Psychologists. I'm NASS President Peter Faustino. As NASS President, I have the incredible opportunity to meet and engage with thought leaders, innovators, and advocates who are making a difference every day on the issues facing our communities. And these conversations have been so inspiring to me that I wanted to ensure every NASC member got a chance to listen and be a part of them. And one thing I've taken away from each of these interactions has been the powerful role that school psychologists can play in addressing the challenges that children face in their lives. My hope with this podcast is to empower NASS members and all school psychologists with with the knowledge and motivation to be a part of these efforts. Nicole Owings Foner is the Director of the American Academy of Pediatrics national center on Social Media and Youth Mental Health, where she leads the Center's strategic direction, operational management, partnership development, and programmatic planning. With nearly two decades of experience in psychology research and dissemination, she focuses on health communications and evidence based practices around technology to improve mental health. Previously, Nicole was the Director of Operations and Innovation at the American Psychological association and author of let's Get Technical, a quarterly column reviewing the latest apps and tools for practitioners. She holds a Bachelor's of Science in Psychology from Carnegie Mellon University and a Master of Arts in Psychology from George Mason University. In her free time, she enjoys traveling with her husband and teenage sons. Nicole, thank you so much for being here and hearing that. You are living with youth and social media in your home, aren't you?
- [02:02]
B
Yes, thank you Peter. I'm so excited to be here. And yeah, I have two teenage boys and this is, as you can imagine, a big topic of conversation and a big way that we communicate as a family, honestly.
- [02:14]
A
Absolutely. I'm so grateful for this conversation today and it's so important for school psychologists. I thought about something just a minute ago. I'm hoping I can start with it's kind of funny. I was on the phone with my father earlier today and something he said just gave me this flashback to my youth. He would yell turn off the TV and read a book. Or turn off the TV and go outside. You know that thing is going to rot your brain. And I started to feel like much of the discourse at this moment really sounds exactly like that. And I may have even repeated those phrases to my own teen daughters recently, which is why I'm so grateful that we're talking about this today because there actually is a place to turn for science and research on this topic. Maybe we could start with the basics. Tell the listeners about the center for Excellence on Social Media and Youth Mental Health and all of the great work that you're doing with the American Academy of Pediatrics.
- [03:14]
B
Sure, I would love to. And I think you're right. I want to address the first part of what you said. In talking about how, in thinking about how we message this and talk about this with youth, we found so many examples, like the ones you just listed, of times when there's a generational divide or there's some new technology. People had the same suspicions about typewriters, about jazz music, you know, things that now, you know, it just seems so commonplace in our life. But the same types of conversations were happening. And so, yeah, I'd love to tell you a little bit more about the center. So our center of Excellence on Social Media and Youth Mental Health is funded by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, SAMHSA as their acronym is. They put out a call for proposals and we were awarded a five year grant to stand up the center of Excellence. We're just launching into year three and we have some big goals here at the center. And first is to really be supporting young people as they navigate social media, but also to support those who work with teens and adolescents. And so that could be pediatricians and clinicians, that could be those in school settings, that could be their families, policymakers, really a wide variety of audiences. And as we're doing all of these things, we want to make sure that we are synthesizing and sharing the evidence based. So we want to make sure in our messaging and our tools and resources that we're really sharing what we know about the science and what we know about the impact of social media on youth mental health. And so how do we do this? Well, we really think about a framework that's strengths based and solutions focused. And so at the heart of our messaging is really looking at the individual child, the family, the circumstances, and focusing on what could be solutions for them. What is the family already doing, what are their needs and how can we meet them where they're at. We want to stay away from a lot of the fear based discord, mainly because that doesn't necessarily work for families or teens and it doesn't make anyone feel good. And so we're really making sure that at the heart of our messaging are solutions that folks can take action on. And if you go to our website, you can find a wide variety of resources. And our website is real easy. It's AAP.org SocialMedia and there you'll find a wide variety of trainings, tip sheets, videos for lots of different audiences. I also want to make sure that I highlight our question and answer portal. And so folks, if you have questions on this topic, whether you're a clinician or a student, anyone can come and ask a question and we're going to give you a evidence based, practical solution for whatever it is that you've asked.
- [06:16]
A
I love it. I feel like you've thought about all the things that we're struggling with and that we're looking for is sounds like it's already on the website and from the center. And you alluded to this just a second ago. But as school psychologists, our profession craves evidence based resources and data to inform our work in schools. But it's hard with all the misinformation, disinformation. Maybe it's honestly just even like information overload about what the impact of social media on youth is. Can you walk us through some of the research and maybe how it should inform our practices in schools? And at some point I'm going to ask is there anything that like, particularly surprised you about the research?
- [07:03]
B
But yeah, that's a really great question. So much of the research in this space focuses on screen time. And I mean that not as just the activity, but the actual amount of time. And so that's what research is focusing on. And they're not looking at much about what youth are doing on screens or what adults are doing or what anyone is doing on screens. It's really focused on the amount of time. Another issue is that a lot of the research is correlational, not causational. And so we don't always know what direction things happen in. Are there maybe some mental health symptoms that are arising after social media or are those children who are more vulnerable tending to use more time on social media? And so we don't know what direction it is. I will say that there are newer research that's in progress and we're very hopeful that there will be more nuanced research coming out about what is happening, what is the quality of the interaction versus the quantity. But just as sort of an example, we're finding that how you're using it and what you're doing, such as like passive interaction. So if you're just scrolling through social media passively, you're more likely to have negative impacts than if you're actively engaged. So people who are posting and commenting and connecting with people, they're actually finding the health impacts are more positive in that kind of Engagement. And so with those caveats, there is some research that I would like to talk a little bit about. And really, we try to think about it by age group. So for young children, we know that there are small but significant associations between the amount of time young children spend on digital media in things like language delays, sleep problems, sedentary behavior. And so we are finding those impacts. The one problem with that, again, comes back to the correlation and the causation is that a lot of that media use correlates with lower socioeconomic status, higher family stress, less access to developmental opportunities. And so it's really hard to piece apart what is the actual cause of maybe some of these things. And so I think when we think about that, we just make sure that media isn't crowding out those other developmentally important steps of early childhood, making sure that language development, they're being read to, they're having opportunities to have conversations. Right. And so thinking about that balance, but acknowledging that there are some small associations with the amount of screen time in thinking about adolescents, however, we really want to recognize that not every teen has the same sort of access or trajectory or social supports. But again, we do find that about one third of teens have potential mental health consequences related and associated to social media or maybe increased risk. But these tend to be the same vulnerable youth who already have existing mental health issues, a less supportive home environment, maybe less connection to parents, or more parental social media use. Again, it's really hard to tease apart from these correlational studies, which is causing which impact.
- [10:35]
A
Yeah, it's such an important distinction you're pointing out. I agree. Much of the conversations are around time when really what you're saying is we've got to talk a little bit deeper about the content, like what children are accessing. I hope this is an accurate fact. Please tell me if it's not that the platform that actually logs the most time and the most youth is actually like YouTube, which we don't talk about banning, versus the things we do, like Snapchat or TikTok. I mean, it's sort of like we're looking in one area when really we need to be looking at sort of like all of it, or having different conversations about what's happening.
- [11:18]
B
Right. I think that's definitely right. And some of that talks about how you're using it, what you're doing, what are the things that it's crowding out. You know, YouTube especially is very popular among younger children and is used in lots of families. And so I think that at the center, we are taking that more broad approach of looking at all of those platforms and not just your traditional probably sort of adolescents mediums that you're thinking of. And I do want to make sure that I highlight there are two really great reports out there on this topic that I would strongly recommend for folks who want to dig in to the research from a balanced approach. The National Academies of Science did a publication recently on social media and adolescent health. It looked at really all of the different research that's out there and they gave their recommendations on the topic. There was also the Kids Online Health and Safety Task Force, which was an intergovernmental, interagency group of experts that came together and they put together a task force report on safer social media and online platform use for youth. Both were put out in 2024. And again, I highly recommend those as places to dig into the research.
- [12:31]
A
That's terrific, Nicole, thank you. One concern I have, and you're sort of already again referencing it, is that schools dealing with social media use among their students, they sort of want to take the easiest path path and just sort of simply ban phones or ban social media. When my sense of your work is that we really have to talk more about digital literacy and be more intentional and thus effective in sort of our implementation. How do you think schools should approach this sort of like limiting the use of social media versus discussing the responsibility and the safety that we all play in the classroom.
- [13:14]
B
So I think that's another great question and one that is being asked everywhere right now. And so, you know, at the center, especially as pediatricians and mental health professionals, we wouldn't presume to know what is best in the classroom. Right. Like you have a lot of educational experts who know what works best in the classroom. And we feel for educators understanding how difficult it is in these days already to capture the attention to deal with the mental health crisis. So wouldn't want to make anything more challenging in that space. With that said, I do think one, it really depends on the age of the child and what's happening in the environment. And so we also wouldn't want to make broad statements that what would work in an elementary school or a middle school is going to be the same in the high school. Right. And so we know from hearing from teachers, from hearing from research from the National Education association, that it really teachers concerns vary depending on the age. And so we know in middle schools there's a lot of concern around bullying, cyberbullying. In high schools, the concerns tend to focus a little bit more on distraction. Right. And so I think when thinking about those policies, you want to think about those two things, the age, but also what is the school environment? What do parents want? What are teens using their phones for? How if you take away those phones, what are the other supports and things that they could be using instead? And then also speaking to your question about digital literacy is. Yes, isn't school one of the places where we want to prepare students to be independent, functioning, knowledgeable adults? And so by not taking that time to teach them those skills and to acknowledge its positive aspects and the benefits and the things they're going to need down the line, seems like really a big, like a big hole in preparing them to be a healthy, functioning adult. And so again, it really depends on what works for this particular school. But I think there's just a lot of different factors and to just shut it down, maybe easy right now, but maybe not in the grand scheme of things.
- [15:31]
A
Absolutely. And it seems to me that regardless of the approach, I hear you saying the critical thing for schools is getting everybody on the same page. Right. Access good research and data, have those critical conversations. Right. We need to get students, staff, families, administrators to sort of all come together and, and make some decisions about what's healthy for, for youth. Do you think that we, I mean, I don't want to set it up as like, you know, yes or no. Right. I mean, we should engage student voices in the process. But do you think that students can fairly assess the situation when it comes to their own social media use? I mean, I know I have three teen daughters and I have to go into their room quite often and remind them, you know, about their healthy habits over the course of the day. Where do we bring students voice into this equation?
- [16:25]
B
Yeah, I would say, obviously, and you know this, that it depends on the developmental stage of the child. Conversation you're going to have with a 10, 11, 12 year old is not going to be the same as a 15, 16, 17 year old. So I think that that is key. But we found from our work, work with our youth advisory panel that they know what's going on, they know what's smart, they know what they need, they know where their emotions are during the day and what they need for social connection. And so I do think it's really important at the very baseline to ask what it is that they're doing on their phones and why they see them as necessary before implementing any sort of policy. And I think what you'll find is somewhat eye opening to how they're using them to connect and to stay in touch and for academic purposes. I know from my own kids that that's how they learn about different volunteer service opportunities. That's how they learn when track practice has been canceled or postponed or there's some change. That's how they're keeping track on what's going on in the world. They care about things that are happening outside of their own school building. And to not ask them, I feel like, you know, no one wants to have some rule or policy that they doesn't. That they don't understand or they feel like doesn't really apply to the situation they're in. And then I think there's also an emotional component that we're sort of ignoring. School can sometimes be a little bit pressure filled. Right. And so think about as an adult, when you pull out your phone, like, are you bored? Are you upset and looking for a distraction or something to cheer you up? You know, teens are the same way. They're looking for the same things. And so I do think that there's a real benefit in hearing from youth. Does that mean that they're going to be able to come up with the best policies themselves that don't take their own interests into account? No. But, you know, that doesn't mean that they don't have really great contributions and thoughtful strategies and solutions for this issue.
- [18:32]
A
Yeah, Nicole, I love that. I mean, as a practitioner myself, I feel like if you ask the right questions of students. Right. I heard you say, like, what are you doing on your phone and why?
- [18:44]
B
Right.
- [18:45]
A
That is the magic question that sort of like, leads us all to some solutions to figuring out, you know, what we need to do next to sort of manage all this. That's great.
- [18:56]
B
And I think another key audience that I mentioned just briefly before is the. Is the parents. And so not only is our parents wanting to communicate with their children sometimes during the school day, but the parents are really the ones who at home are going to communicate why it's important to follow specific policies, why it's important to do what you're being asked, and that sort of thing. And so if parents don't support these policies or don't understand them, it's going to be really challenging to implement. And so I think that's another reason to be involving all of the stakeholders.
- [19:31]
A
Yeah. Nicole, can you tell me a little bit more about the youth advisory panel? I didn't realize that you are accessing student voices yourself. And on the last podcast, we had someone from the Born this Way foundation who was really talking about her research with youth empowerment and sort of tapping into peers to manage a lot of these things. Can you share more about what you guys are doing with the youth advisory panel?
- [19:59]
B
Yeah, for sure. So we have a youth advisory panel that's made up of. Well, now it's actually about 25. It was 20. We're in our second year of the cohort, and they are aged 14 to 19, very diverse backgrounds from all over the country. And their role is really to help advise the center when it comes to not just creating tools and products and resources, but really to think about what are the audiences that we're engaging and how engaging them. So how, from a youth perspective, do you want us to talk to your parents about this? What tools do they need to talk to you? What do your teachers and coaches need to know so that they can help support you with this? And then what's also been really awesome is getting to know and learn about each of them individually and what they're interested in and why they want to talk about this topic and why they see it as important to be able to speak to their peers about it and to speak to policymakers. They're so engaging. And I think it really lends really an energizing aspect to the project. Right. Sometimes when you're doing something day to day, you kind of get lost in, like, what is the real reason behind this? And so they bring that back to the conversation. Like they are. They are real people, they're real youth who are in this situation who are trying to figure out how to navigate this world in a way that's supportive of their mental health. And so we also offer them different opportunities to speak on panels or to give presentations. And then we have had other outside groups want to get input from youth if they don't have their own panels. And so have reached out to see if our panels could give some advice or to talk about this issue, share what they think is important.
- [21:48]
A
Yeah, no, that's awesome. I mean, I think you're speaking directly to the school psychologists that know everything you just said is inherent in the work that we do as school psychologists. And that's just some great opportunities for youth. I mean, these are the. This is who we're trying to solve this or answer these questions about. So it's great.
- [22:11]
B
Peter. I just want to share one example. So I. I don't lead our youth work. I have a nice staff who's dedicated and who gets to do some of that. But I do try and join their monthly meetings as much as possible. We ask. Asked them a question about Just an icebreaker about who your role models are, who is your favorite mentor or someone that you look up to. And as staff, we were putting ours in the chat and ours were all people like Michelle Obama and public leaders like that. And the teens, theirs were their mom, their neighbor, their sister who just did this awesome, amazing thing. All of these people literally in their world that they interact with on a regular basis. And it was just so heartwarming to hear that that that's who they're looking at. And so they're looking at all of us and all of you. When, when they make these choices and when they make decisions about their lives and how they spend them as, as
- [23:06]
A
parents, it does not always feel like they are listening. But I think you're right. They absolutely are. They. They are, you know, they are. They value what we say. They really. Yeah, I know in one of our earlier conversations, you and I talked about some of the information that's out there, right. Even the book the Anxiety Generation by Jonathan Haidt, that is quite popular and I think in part due to the way that it tries to simplify the issue and just creates unfortunately, a little bit of fear among readers by focusing on sort of like what's bad. And I know earlier you said that the center is really looking at solution focused and strength based. You mentioned a few. But do you see other potential benefits of social media use among young people that maybe aren't being discussed just so we can kind of bring balance to this conversation?
- [23:56]
B
Sure. I think sometimes we forget to focus on some of the positives when we have this conversation, which makes sense. You know, as parents and concerned adults like you want to jump in to what is, what are the possible concerns? Right. What are the possible ways that you need Debbie helping. But teens share with us that they're using this for socialization. So connecting with friends, building their larger networks, maintaining relationships, mainly with folks that they know in person. They're using it sort of as an emotional and stress reliever, an emotional support, doing something to distract themselves, to make themselves happy. But they're also using it in functional ways and so planning events, engaging around assignments. They're also using it as a sense of identity exploration and identity growth. So exploring their sense of self, especially as an adolescent, getting reactions from others in ways that they're changing their identities, appearance, how they talk about themselves, finding out and exploring really who they are, and then also finding other communities and learning from those communities in a way that they might not either have access to in person or just not be comfortable yet. In person. And then finally they're also using it to engage in civic ways. And so finding out about climate change and what they can do. They're worried about things like gun safety and various issues like that. And having social media really gives them a wider connection to others who are interested in those topics, again, in a way that they may not be able to get in their own physical communities.
- [25:42]
A
Yeah, tremendous potential. All the things you just mentioned. And I think if we balance the conversation and ask about those things, we'll sort of be able to navigate this a little bit better and not just focus on the fear. Nicole, so much good information. I mean, when we were talking about putting this together, I. I was thinking about my own social media use. I mean, personally, I enjoy using it. I mean, there are times that my daughters are probably shaking their heads about what I put online. The other day, one of my daughters was reading a book titled, like 48 Clues into the Disappearance of youf Sister. You know, and I, I thought it was so funny. I took a photo of the book and I put it out there and, you know, they were sort of engaging with it and then shaking their heads. Why did you put that out there? Right. How do you. I mean, you're the expert in this area now, right? Or you're living it every day. How does the work you do impact your use of social media and what you do with it personally?
- [26:45]
B
Yeah, that's a. That's a good topic. It's funny, earlier you asked me if there's anything interesting we'd found in the research, and I know I didn't tackle that too much, but it definitely relates to this. And I think one of the more interesting thing that's coming out of it is what is the impact of parents social media use on youth? And so we're starting. I know, I know. We're all. It's a little, little worrisome for all of us.
- [27:10]
A
I'm hoping nobody really takes a deep dive into mine, but go on. I'm sorry.
- [27:14]
B
Yeah, no, no. What we're finding is that there is a lot of association between parental use and some negative health income or health outcomes for teens. And so another area that we're going to keep focusing on is what your parent is doing and what you're doing as the parent, and not just in the sense of sort of role modeling, but also being present. Right. And so it's not just having youth see you on your phone, but it's also how are you engaging with them if you're on the phone and so having very similar conversations, you know, we really recommend a family media plan. Not a youth or child media plan, but a family media plan so that you can all talk about what's really important in your household. And that applies to the adults, too. And then I will also say the flip side of that is, though, having teenagers, I'm learning about platforms that I wouldn't have otherwise learned about. I personally am not a big video gamer, but my sons are. And so they use a specific gaming platform and they've introduced me to it. And it is how we communicate as a family. Now. They're more likely to respond to that messaging system than any text message that I send them. And so, you know, it's really following their lead and being open to it. And then I think we all, we all have our favorite things on social media and use it as a way to de stress and to connect. Right. And so I know for me, it's really great to be able to share with other people, to be able to keep up with people and to just share funny parts of our day. I think it's a great way to connect, and I think that our teens want to do that with us, too. And sometimes conversations that you couldn't have had as easily over the phone, they're not going to answer. Like, sending them a quick meme is a great way to check in when they're at some sort of event in the evening. And so I think just the way that you're describing using your social media, we can be doing it as a family, as appropriate.
- [29:17]
A
No, that is amazing advice because we know developing healthy habits can be hard, but when you've got that support network, when you're doing it as a family, I. I think you increase the chances of it actually happening. And certainly those questions that we spoke about just a minute ago, right, like, what are you doing on your social media? And why? Would be great questions to ask ourselves as adults, as teachers, as school psychologists, as parents. So really excellent advice. Do you discuss a lot of what you've learned directly when you're out to dinner with family and friends? I would imagine this is a hot topic topic even when you're not at work?
- [30:02]
B
Yes, yes, for sure. It comes up. And, you know, I also find myself, I catch myself doing all the things that we're saying that, like, are important to, you know, to not do. Right. And so I think there's also this recognition that we're also just people. Parents are people, teachers are people, school psychologists are people. Right. Learning. We're all learning Together. But one thing I have found that helps when I feel like I need to use my phone in a way that. Or a time that we've said as a family, we're not going to, is narrating what I'm doing and so sharing more, even though as the adult, maybe I don't have to, but leading by example. And so if I have my phone out, I will tell my children, I'm waiting for this important call. Your grandmother is going to call. She's been to the doctor. I'm waiting to hear that. Or, you know, this is the reason that I need to be on the phone, you know, and making sure that it's. Those are not like everyday kind of things, but making sure that we lead by example. The same kind of thing with when you're in the car, right? Saying out loud, I'm going to put my phone away over here where I can't reach it because I need to focus on driving right now. And, you know, we did a lot of that when we had kids that were much smaller where you narrated your day and just starting to do more of that as they're older. So that it's very clear that the rules go both ways. It's very clear that we're not asking them to do things that we're not willing to do. I think that's one of the biggest things that I've found that I didn't think that I would be doing with teenagers, but really helps.
- [31:35]
A
What a terrific takeaway for listeners, right? I mean, the idea that you help narrate, use a little bit of that talk to say, I'm not just scrolling because I'm bored. It's. I'm waiting for an important message or it's dinner time and you acknowledge that you're going to put your phone away and model that kind of behavior. I. I haven't heard that before, but thank you, Nicole. I'm going to start doing a lot more of that. I could talk to you literally, like, all day about this topic. And so I appreciate the time you've given us. Perhaps one last question, if you'll indulge me. I mean, since we are talking about mental health, sometimes I do like to ask our guests, what do you do to maintain your own mental health?
- [32:17]
B
Mental health?
- [32:18]
A
I mean, mine typically tends to center around cooking. I've got some bread that is rising in the kitchen right now that I'm hoping. I'm going to bake after the podcast, but I've been thinking about maybe getting back into music. What do you do for your own mental health. That's not social media.
- [32:36]
B
Yes. Well, when I'm not working or running teenagers everywhere that they need to be,
- [32:41]
A
which is all full time jobs.
- [32:43]
B
Yes. Yeah, I like to be outside. So whether that's going for a hike, whether that's doing some gardening, planting some vegetables, I really find that that's the best way to center myself. And even if it's just for a few minutes, I know we've got days where things are scheduled back to back to back. If I can just get outside and make that effort for a 10 minute walk, I think that really helps me. The other thing I would say is connecting with other individuals. So whether that's a family member, a friend, just making the time to do those types of things really helps fill my cup. And then I can tackle all the other things that we've got going on that day.
- [33:23]
A
So much good advice in one short podcast. I cannot thank you enough.
- [33:31]
B
Thank you. I really appreciate this opportunity and I look forward to continued partnership in this space because I do think that it's a critical one and school psychologists are certainly playing a big role in this in the development of children and their mental health.
- [33:53]
A
Thank you again to Nicole for this incredible conversation about the challenges and opportunities surrounding social media, technology and youth mental health. I hope that school psychologists listening to this conversation will come away with a sense of empowerment and a desire to get involved in this work. That way we can take this conversation and put it into action. We'll be back with another episode of Catalysts in Conversations soon. Until then, I'm Peter Faustino and thank you for listening.