328: The Dark History of Mount Rushmore National Monument.

Summary

National Park After Dark

Episode 328: The Dark History of Mount Rushmore National Monument
October 13, 2025 | Hosted by Danielle and Cassie

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Overview

In this compelling and deeply researched episode, Danielle and Cassie dive into the layered, often troubling history of Mount Rushmore National Monument, highlighting its origins, the violence and broken treaties that made the monument possible, and its lasting significance for Indigenous peoples—particularly the Lakota. Tied to the contemporary shift from Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day, the hosts critically examine what and who monuments like Mount Rushmore choose to honor, what narratives are omitted, and the ongoing fight for truthful representation and restitution. They juxtapose Mount Rushmore’s national mythology with the powerful, still-unfinished Crazy Horse Memorial, ultimately urging listeners to confront uncomfortable histories as a means toward justice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Monuments and Collective Memory

• The Power of Public Monuments: The episode opens with Cassie reflecting on how public monuments shape cultural memory—not just what happened, but what a nation chooses to valorize ([00:02]).
• Recent Statue Removals: The hosts bring up the recent removals of statues of J. Marion Sims, Theodore Roosevelt, and Christopher Columbus as evidence of a changing tide in public memory and demands for accountability ([00:02]).

The Symbolism of Mount Rushmore

• A “Patriotic Symbol” in Schoolbooks: Both hosts recall how, growing up, Mount Rushmore was presented as a proud, patriotic emblem, with little or nothing said of its darker context ([04:32], [07:01]).
• Mount Rushmore’s Omissions: The actual history, particularly regarding Indigenous dispossession and the monument’s creation, was largely omitted from their education ([04:32], [07:59]).

Columbus Day and Re-examining History ([05:54]—[09:37])

• Columbus Day’s Origins and True Legacy: Cassie gives a concise account of Columbus’s violence towards Indigenous peoples, including enslavement, sexual violence, and the spread of deadly diseases ([07:59]).
• The Shift to Indigenous Peoples Day: This legacy, Cassie argues, is why many now use the day to honor Indigenous communities and question why history is so selectively memorialized ([09:17]).

The Creation of Mount Rushmore ([11:47]—[21:32])

• Initial Vision: South Dakota historian Don Robinson originally wanted to carve a broader cast of Western figures—including Native leaders—into the Black Hills ([11:47]).
• Sculptor Gutzon Borglum’s Influence: Borglum, who had ties to the Ku Klux Klan and previously worked on the Confederate Memorial at Stone Mountain, shifted the monument’s purpose to celebrate “the story of America itself”—centering four presidents ([12:33], [13:29]).
  • Notable Quote – Cassie ([13:29]):
    “The person he reached out to, Borglum, was not the right person to bring this vision to life because he had ties to the KKK and had no interest in honoring Indigenous communities.”
• Naming the Mountain: The mountain had a sacred Lakota name, Tȟuŋkášila Šákpe (Six Grandfathers), but it was renamed after a passing white lawyer, an act the hosts call disrespectful and dismissive ([15:57]).
  • Notable Quote – Cassie ([15:57]):
    “In reality, it’s not true. This mountain was not unnamed. It was and is a sacred mountain to the Lakota people.”
• Selecting the Presidents: The four presidents—Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt, and Lincoln—were chosen to symbolize founding, expansion, development, and preservation (i.e., Manifest Destiny) ([18:15]).
• Construction: Began in 1927, ended in 1941; details of the dangerous labor, cost, and subsequent transformation into a major tourist site are noted ([20:01], [21:32]).

The Theft of the Black Hills ([22:00]—[36:32])

• Treaty Violations and Broken Promises: The Black Hills were guaranteed to the Sioux Nation under the 1868 Treaty of Fort Laramie (“as long as the grass shall grow and the rivers flow”), only for gold to bring a federal land grab and violence ([24:17], [21:32]).
• The Great Sioux War: The U.S. Army’s campaign included scorched earth tactics and the systematic extermination of bison to starve Indigenous peoples ([25:52], [29:50]).
  • Cassie reflects on the iconic image of bison skulls as evidence of this deliberate policy ([29:50]).
• Crazy Horse’s Resistance: An in-depth, moving recounting of Crazy Horse’s leadership, spiritual depth, and resistance, ultimately culminating in his betrayal and murder by the US military in 1877 ([36:35]); after this, the Black Hills were formally seized and the possibility of return extinguished.

The Creation and Significance of the Crazy Horse Memorial ([38:30]—[44:57])

• A Monument for the “Red Man”: In the late 1930s, Chief Henry Standing Bear invited sculptor Korczak Ziolkowski to carve Crazy Horse into Thunder Mountain—on the condition that it use no government money ([38:30]).
  • Notable Quote – Standing Bear via Cassie ([38:30]):
    “The white man has his heroes carved in the Black Hills. The red man should have his, too.”
• Persistence, Scale, and Symbolism: Work on the memorial began in 1948. Unlike Mount Rushmore, the faces of the presidents, Crazy Horse’s memorial would depict him pointing to the lands where his ancestors lie buried. The monument’s creation is uniquely community-driven, and it includes a major educational and cultural center ([38:30], [44:13]).
  • Notable Detail: The funds offered by the government for the monument have been consistently refused ([44:13], [58:48]).
• Ongoing Impact: The Crazy Horse project is unfinished, a living project, and yet it has become a powerful, defiant symbol for the Lakota and all Indigenous peoples, preserving both story and spirit.

Continuing Legal and Moral Battles ([44:41]—[46:00])

• U.S. Supreme Court Recognition: In 1980, the Supreme Court ruled the Black Hills were taken illegally, awarding the Sioux Nation $106 million—refused by the Lakota, as “the Black Hills were never for sale.” The money remains untouched and has grown to over a billion dollars ([44:41]).
• Moral Contrasts: The side-by-side existence of Mount Rushmore and Crazy Horse reveals, as Cassie notes,
  “On one mountain, four presidents gaze out over land taken in their names. On another, a Lakota warrior points towards that same land as if reminding the world whose story came first.” ([44:41])
• Commemoration vs. Glorification: The hosts discuss the view among many Lakota that Mount Rushmore might better serve as a site of memorial mourning—more akin to Holocaust remembrance—than a patriotic celebration ([44:41]).

Present-Day Advocacy and Truth-Telling ([46:00]—[61:00])

• Save Our Signs Initiative: The hosts endorse this activist archivist project to document threatened historical signage in national parks, especially as recent executive orders threaten to erase “negative” aspects of U.S. history ([47:41]).
  • Notable Quote – Cassie ([49:17]):
    “History is so important… just because something is ugly, just because something is sad and bad, doesn’t mean that it should not be remembered.”
• Ongoing Disparities in Interpretation and Education: Both recount their recent visit to both monuments, noting how Mount Rushmore all but omits Indigenous history, while Crazy Horse offers immersive, honest, and impactful education and experience ([53:37]–[57:44]).
  • Notable Quote – Co-host ([54:09]):
    “The sculptor and the process… it did not say on the signs had ties to the KKK.”
  • Notable Quote – Cassie ([57:27]):
    “You could feel how meaningful and special that this place was. In comparison, Mount Rushmore felt really oppressive there. It felt like it was lacking information.”
• Visitation and Awareness: Mount Rushmore receives about 2 million annual visitors; Crazy Horse, half that, despite being close by. The hosts urge listeners to visit both to gain a holistic sense of the land’s history ([56:27]).

The Future of Mount Rushmore ([61:36]—[65:26])

• What Should Be Done?: The hosts weigh possible futures—leaving it unchanged, re-contextualizing it as a site of mourning and education, returning land or decision-making authority to the Lakota, or even renaming it to the Six Grandfathers. Both agree that these are choices for the Lakota and other affected Indigenous communities ([63:09], [64:07]).
  • Notable Quote – Cassie ([63:44]):
    “Maybe we should change the name of Mount Rushmore back to its original. I mean, it’s very widely acknowledged as the Six Grandfathers.”
  • Notable Quote – Co-host ([62:11]):
    “It’s important that [Mount Rushmore] exists, but it’s important for us to know why it’s there and how it became what it is today in its entirety.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Changing Narratives:
  “The stories once carved in bronze and stone are being re-examined, their meanings rewritten. And now the conversation leads us to one of the most controversial monuments of all, carved not in a city square, but deep into sacred Lakota land itself. Mount Rushmore.”
  — Cassie ([00:02])

• On the Original Name:
  “This mountain was not unnamed. It was and is a sacred mountain to the Lakota people.”
  — Cassie ([15:57])

• On the Crazy Horse Memorial’s Refusal of Federal Funding:
  “That’s not the point. And I think in a world where money talks and is the loudest in the room and kind of overshadows and is just the deciding factor in so many aspects of life, to see that over generations … it’s just such a like, absolutely not. This is our thing and we’re going to do it our way. And respectfully, no, thank you.”
  — Co-host ([58:48])

• On Indigenous Justice and Unaddressed Wrongs:
  “The settlement now sits in a government trust accruing interest that has grown into more than a billion dollars… For the Lakota, the issue is not wealth. It is justice. For them, you cannot sell the heart of their world.”
  — Cassie ([44:41])

• On Critical Thinking and Re-examining History:
  “Encourage yourself to learn more about something, about anything. It doesn’t even have to be necessarily just this. But if you’re seeing some part of history that you’re interested in, don’t take it for what someone’s telling you it is. Do the research. Find out yourself.”
  — Cassie ([61:38])

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Important Timestamps

• 00:02 – 02:24: Opening reflections on monument controversies, transition to Mount Rushmore.
• 05:54 – 09:37: Columbus Day and “the victors’ version” of history.
• 11:47 – 21:32: Origins of Mount Rushmore, naming, presidents chosen, construction.
• 22:00 – 36:32: The theft of the Black Hills, the Great Sioux War, legacy of Crazy Horse.
• 38:30 – 44:41: Creation of Crazy Horse Memorial, symbolism, and ongoing construction.
• 44:41 – 46:00: Supreme Court decision, Lakota refusal of compensation, ongoing legal/moral contest.
• 47:41 – 49:17: Advocacy (Save Our Signs), the battle to preserve honest history in NPS sites.
• 53:37 – 57:44: Personal experiences visiting both monuments, differences in historical interpretation.
• 61:36 – 65:26: Reflections on the future of Mount Rushmore, critical thinking, and honoring full history.

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Tone & Final Reflections

The hosts maintain a tone of care, reverence, and candor, balancing the emotional weight of injustice with calls to action and the possibility of change. They stress the need for critical thinking, humility in the face of complex histories, and a commitment to honoring not just the winners’ stories, but those who resisted erasure.

“It’s important that [Mount Rushmore] exists, but it’s important for us to know why it’s there and how it became what it is today in its entirety.”
— Co-host ([62:11])

Both encourage listeners to deepen their education, visit both monuments if possible, support Indigenous-directed projects like the Crazy Horse Memorial, and to support preservation initiatives so that all American stories—including the darkest ones—can be told and learned from.

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For more information about Save Our Signs, Crazy Horse Memorial, and ways to support Indigenous histories in national parks, see episode notes.

Transcript

[Cassie]

Public monuments tell us more than history. They tell us who and what a nation chooses to honor. For generations, the bronze statue of J. Marion Sims stood proudly along New York's Fifth Avenue, celebrating him as the father of modern gynecology. Yet the truth behind his fame was built on something much darker. Sims conducted repeated surgeries on enslaved black women without anesthesia, believing they felt less pain. His statue's eventual removal wasn't about erasing history. It was about finally acknowledging the truth and no longer celebrating him. Across Manhattan, another monument sparked outrage. The towering bronze statue of Theodore Roosevelt outside the Museum of Natural History. It showed the President high on horseback with an indigenous man and an African man walking below him. When it was unveiled in 1940, it was seen as a celebration of leadership. Today, many argue it's a celebration of white supremacy. In 2022, after years of debate, the statue was finally taken down, its removal marking a slow shift towards acknowledging the harder truths. Even around celebrated presidents. Elsewhere, across dozens of cities, statues of Christopher Columbus have been defaced, removed, or quietly boxed away. Once hailed as the bold explorer who discovered the New World, Columbus is now recognized for bringing in centuries of violence, enslavement, and indigenous genocide. Red paint has stained his statues in Baltimore and Boston, where protesters have left messages calling him what history. Long a conqueror, not a hero. Each of these monuments, from doctors to presidents to explorers, reveals a turning tide in how America confronts its past. The stories once carved in bronze and stone are being re examined, their meanings rewritten. And now the conversation leads us to one of the most controversial monuments of all, carved not in a city square, but deep into sacred Lakota land itself. Mount Rushmore. Welcome to National Park After Dark.

[Co-host]

Foreign hello, everyone, and welcome back to National Park After Dark. And Cassie is going where I feel like we've been heading for a long time to Mount Rushmore and the conversation that needs to be had about it because we've danced around it long enough.

[Cassie]

We've danced around it long enough. We haven't mentioned it long enough. And it feels very fitting to talk about it today because it is not a coincidence. We don't believe in those that this episode is airing on what has been known in history for a very long time as Columbus Day, but has shifted more towards Indigenous Peoples Day. It is coming out on that Monday, if you're listening, the day it airs.

[Co-host]

Yeah, October 13th. And I know that you intentionally did this, and I'm really excited because I know it was kind of brewing when we did our one star review episode a few weeks ago. And we chose Mount Rushmore and a lot of people have a lot of feelings about it. So. So that.

[Cassie]

And the arch, which. Yeah, the arch also has. The arch will also be one we do one day. Because the arch is also very problematic.

[Co-host]

Yeah. Okay. I don't know much about it. I've never been there.

[Cassie]

I recently researched it and man, is it problematic.

[Co-host]

Okay, well, let's. Let's tackle one thing at a time. And the Mount Rushmore one, I'm really excited about too, because it's always really nice when we've been to these physical locations and we try our. But we travel a lot and we go to a lot of these places and we try and speak from a place of experience, at least physically visiting locations that we're telling the stories about. Of course, we, we are only 35. I mean, four. Oh, my God.

[Cassie]

Speak for yourself.

[Co-host]

I'm almost sorry. I'm 35 in a couple months. Wow. I just aged myself. Jesus, slow down. Give myself a jump scare. But yeah, so we've been here and it was one of. The follow up of Crazy Horse was the better part of the experience. And I'm sure you're going to get to that. So I'm stoked that you're talking about this today.

[Cassie]

Yeah, yeah. It feels fitting. And like you said, it's nice that we've been there and we've had our own experience. And I think that. And we're going to get into it a lot with this is that we were kind of shocked about what we saw when we went to Mount Rushmore, and we will dive into that. But I think part of why I was so gravitated towards this subject is because when you're growing up, you learn and see pictures of Mount Rushmore, Rushmore all the time. I mean, I remember almost every history textbook I ever had had Mount Rushmore just plastered on it. Even if it wasn't about Mount Rushmore, if it was about American history, there was like, it was on the COVID it was on the back, it was like it was somewhere within the pages was Mount Rushmore like this American pillar of history, this patriotic symbol. And that has been what Americans have viewed as like, kind of the symbol of America. But there's been so much history behind that that's been omitted and kind of bur that you have to search for. So even myself included, I mean, growing up, I was always like, wow, Mount Rushmore. It seems kind of dumb because I've never understood carving faces into a mountain, but it was like, that's American. You know that that's an American symbol right there. And it wasn't until I started actually really diving into the history that I realized that there's a lot more to it than that.

[Co-host]

Okay, well, I'm ready to hear what you found out.

[Cassie]

Yes. So before we dive into Mount Rushmore, I did want to talk about Columbus Day a little bit, too. Just because it comes out on Columbus Day and just going into stories that have been celebrated, and there's actually a darker twist to that. I thought that it would be important just to do a quick little mention of Columbus Day, because I think to a lot of people, including myself, for a very long time, it's. You don't really think about Columbus Day. You're like, oh, this is a day I get off from work. Great. And end a story. You know, you don't really think about it too much deeper. And then, of course, in recent years, conversations have come forward that that's not. That Columbus Day actually signifies honoring something that is really dark. And I thought that we should go into that a little bit.

[Co-host]

Yeah, I think it's more of just kind of collectively waking up to critically think about the holidays that we celebrate and that have. We've been through no fault of our own. Just raised in an environment and a climate where that was the norm.

[Cassie]

Totally.

[Co-host]

You know, same goes with Mount Rushmore. Same. I have the same exact vision of a textbook type of thing. And honestly, like, even as a kid thinking, like, feeling pride about that, like, this is my country and this is America, and I'm proud to be, you know, part of this whole thing. And, you know, it's just something that as you become an adult, it's not just questioning history, in particular in American history, it's questioning everything. Just kind of critically thinking about what is it that I've been brought up to think and ways and patterns of being, and not saying, like, you need to throw the table over on every single thing, but just to reexamine it and through a different perspective or lens and just give pause to maybe think of a different view. And like you said, a lot of this history was purposefully omitted. So it's taking that into account, too, and just taking a look at it as a whole instead of just the little sliver that we were. We were served for so long.

[Cassie]

Yes, exactly. Beautifully said. So going into just a little bit about Columbus Day. First, Columbus Day was originally created to mark Christopher Columbus's 1492 landing in Americas. Over time, it became a day for Italian Americans as well, to celebrate their heritage and contributions to the US Today, the holiday is often viewed as a reminder that America has always been shaped by immigrants and their unique cultures. For a long time, Columbus Day was taught as a story of bravery. Kids learned that Christopher Columbus crossed the Atlantic in 1492 and discovered a new world. But the truth is much darker. Columbus never actually set foot on the mainland of North America. Instead, he landed in the on the Caribbean islands like the Bahamas or Hispaniola, and explored the coasts of Central and South America. His voyages opened the door for European colonization, but he never reached what is now the United States or Canada. When he arrived in the Caribbean, Columbus met the Taino people who welcomed him. Instead of friendship, he enslaved them. Many were forced to mine gold under brutal conditions. Those who didn't meet quotas were tortured, maimed, or killed. Columbus also sent thousands of indigenous people back to Spain as slaves, and many died on their way. His arrival brought diseases like smallpox and measles that native communities had no immunity to. In Hispaniola, the Taino people fell from hundreds of thousands to only a few hundred. Within two generations, the abuse went even further. Columbus and his men raped, enslaved, and murdered the Taino women and girls, selling them into sex trafficking. In his own journals, Columbus even wrote about how young girls, some as young as 9 or 10, were in demand. The violence inspired the larger pattern of colonization brought to the United States, where indigenous women and children were targeted, trafficked, and dehumanized for centuries. Because of this legacy, Columbus Day has become one of the most controversial US Holidays. Many places now recognize Indigenous Peoples Day instead honoring Native communities and their resilience, instead of celebrating a man tied to conquest and exploitation. So knowing all of this information, it makes you question, why is some history memorialized while others are shoved away? The saying goes, the victors are the ones who write our history. But when the victors are the ones committing the atrocities, how can we trust the retelling of history is correct? And of course, one memorial that truly glorifies American history, while largely omitting the ugly part, is Mount Rushmore. At this point, I think most of us have learned that it's controversial at the very least, but I don't think a lot of people know exactly why. And again, going back to our conversation earlier, I don't think that is necessarily like we're at fault for that. It's just how we were raised and what we were taught, because it's been largely omitted from education. But I think it's time that we take a much deeper dive, especially if you haven't heard before or if this is a refresh for you. Have you ever overdrafted your bank account? Because yeah, same I'd buy one cup of coffee, forget about it and two days later my account would be like surprise, you owe us $35. That's why I switched to Cash App because it actually has your back when it comes to your money. Signing up was so fast and I love how easy it is to manage everything in one place, from getting paid early to customizing my own Cash App card. Cash App does more than you think when it comes to having your back and making sure your money stays your money. If you direct deposit at least $300 in paychecks each month and use the Cash App card for purchases, you can unlock up to $200 in free overdraft coverage. If you overdraft unexpectedly, there are no hidden fees. Manage your money on your terms and take advantage of free overdraft coverage up to $200 on cash app today. For a limited time, new Cash App Customers can earn $10 if they use code CASHAPP10 in their profile at signup and send $5 to a friend within 14 days. Terms apply. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's bank partners Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton bank member FDIC Overdraft coverage provided by Cash App, a Block Inc. Brand. Visit Cash App Legal Podcast for full disclosures. So first I want to take a moment to explain the creation of Mount Rushmore more in depth before we backtrack to the history of the lands there and the bloodshed that occurred in order for it to exist. In 1923, a South Dakota historian named Don Robinson had a vision. He wanted to draw tourists to his state, specifically to the towering granite spires known as the Needles deep in the Black Hills, called by local native communities Paha sapa, meaning Black Hills. His idea was to carve the likeness of famous figures of the American west into the rocks explorers, frontiersmen, and even native leaders. When he approached sculptor Gutzon Borglum, he didn't yet realize how dramatically the project would change. Borglum was a man drawn to colossal art and nationalist ideas. He had once worked on the Confederate Memorial at Stone Mountain in Georgia, a project financed by the Ku Klux Klan, and he shared their obsession with a white America.

[Co-host]

Oh, so this the roots of this is better intentions of carving people of all kinds?

[Cassie]

Yes, the original idea was that people of all kinds, it was more this person, it seems like they wanted to truly embody what the west was, and that included indigenous people.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Cassie]

But then the person he reached out to, Borglum, was not the right person to bring this vision to life because he had ties to the KKK and had no interest in. In honoring indigenous communities.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Cassie]

So Borglum looked at Robinson's sketches and was uninterested in his idea. He wanted something that he thought would be grander, something that told what he called the story of America itself. Itself. He chose Mount Rushmore, a granite peak named for a New York lawyer who had passed through the area decades earlier to survey the land for a mining operation. And to give you an idea of how random of a decision it was to name the mountain after this man, I found an expert, an excerpt on the NPS site of a letter he wrote explaining how he named it after himself. Because this man. I mean, let's put into context here that the Lakota people and many indigenous people lived in this area for thousands of years. And this man came in just one year for off and on for one year. He didn't even live here for a mining operation and was like, hey, this mountain should be me. Should be named after me. So he wrote in this letter, quote, I was deeply impressed with the hills and particularly with a mountain of granite rock that rose above the neighboring peaks. On one occasion. On one occasion, while looking from near its base with almost awe at this majestic pile, I asked of the men who were with me for its name. They said it had no name, but one of them spoke up and said, we will name it now and name it Rushmore Peak. That was the origin of the name it bears. As I have been informed, it is called Rushmore Peak, Rushmore Mountain, and Rushmore Rock after this lawyer whose last name was Rushmore.

[Co-host]

God, it's like, okay, did you guys do any research? No. Yeah. Okay.

[Cassie]

You just arrived and you're like, does this have a name? Not that I know of. Let's name it.

[Co-host]

Not that I'm aware of. And they'll. For the 10 other white guys around me, nobody thinks it has a name. So.

[Cassie]

Yeah. And the craziest part is that it stuck, obviously, because we still call it Mount Rushmore.

[Co-host]

I was just gonna say, I can't even believe that took hold.

[Cassie]

That's the origin story of.

[Co-host]

Yeah, it's just like, all right, whatever.

[Cassie]

Sure, that makes sense. But in reality, it's not true. This mountain was not unnamed. It was and is a sacred mountain to the Lakota people. They had long since named it Tuan Kashila Shakape, meaning six grandfathers the Six Grandfathers was named by Lakota medicine man Nicholas Black Elk after a vision. The vision was of six sacred directions. West, east, north, south, above and below. The directions were said to represent kindness and love, full of years in wisdom. Like human grandfathers, the mountain itself was a sacred site for prayer and devotion and represented these six spiritual directions. So a mountain with a name with a real meaning.

[Co-host]

And not only that, but it's the fact that the indigenous peoples not only had this reverence for this sacred mountain, but the true meaning behind it, compared to the faces and their kind of what they are all about now that we've discovered over time and just kind of the. The morality or lack thereof of some of those people, it's just more opposite, right?

[Cassie]

Yeah, it's like there was actual sacred meaning. And, I mean, we find that with a lot of things, though, right? We find a lot in American history, and we don't have to dive down this path, but where mountains are named specifically after people for no reason who have just, like, come across this, and then they actually have real deep indigenous meanings and sacred meanings that are so much more special and more important than just, like, naming it after some random guy. And I mean.

[Co-host]

Yeah, but no, I mean, like, I don't even mean with Rush, like, the title Rushmore. I mean, like, what did you just refresh my memory? I know you just said it five seconds ago, but, like, it was named after all the sacred directions and the kindness and peace and love that human grandfathers would.

[Cassie]

Spiritual directions.

[Co-host]

Yeah, it's like that compared to the men that are on there now. Not the guy Rushmore was named after, but the. The men's faces who are carved into there right now and what they have kind of represented. Represented. Yeah, it's just a very stark difference.

[Cassie]

It is. And we're going. I mean, that's what this whole episode is going to be about is just how it's not even. I mean, it is the Monum itself. It represents a lot of stuff that is very dark. But the location of where the monument is is what makes it so really, really bad. I mean, it. For lack of a better term, I mean, it's. It's really disrespectful. Yeah, it is. It truly is. And we're going to learn more about it. So let's jump into it. So it does have a name. It is not Mount Rushmore, and they name it this. So going back into Borglum and him picking a place to carve his. What he envisions to be the American Story into the mountains. He decides, decides that this mountain area is the place because of its broad, solid face and southern exposure was basically his decision making. Instead of western heroes, Borglum selected four presidents to embody the nation's birth, growth, development and preservation. George Washington would represent the founding of the Republic, Thomas Jefferson, the expansion westward, the very idea of Manifest Destiny, Theodore Roosevelt, the industrial and rise of power in the country at the turn of the 20th century, and Abraham Lincoln for the unity preserved through the Civil War. Work began in October 1927, and each day at sunrise, the sound of dynamite echoed through the valley as hundreds of men clung to the cliffs. Hanging from harnesses and swinging drills, they blasted and carved more than 450,000 tons of granite, roughing out the President's faces with dynamite before shaping the detail by hand. It was dangerous and exhausting work, but remarkably, not a single worker was killed during the 14 years of its construction.

[Co-host]

That is very surprising to me.

[Cassie]

I agree, Especially just when you look back in this time frame, that it's happening in the 1930s and the technology that was around at that point.

[Co-host]

Yeah. And safe working conditions were not a.

[Cassie]

Thing prioritized at all.

[Co-host]

And just like the scale of the project as well, and just the inherent risk that you take in doing, you're.

[Cassie]

On a rock face work like that. Yeah.

[Co-host]

And accidents happen all the time in much less crazy conditions. So yeah, that's surprising. I mean, great, I'm happy to hear that.

[Cassie]

But story without death. Just kidding. There's a lot of death in this, just not in this point. So Washington's face was completed first dedicated in 1930. Jefferson's followed in 1936, Lincoln in 1937, and Roosevelt in 1939. Borglum planned to sculpt full chests of each man. But the Great Depression drained funding, and when he died in 1941, his son Lincoln Borglum took over and finished what his father had started, which ended up being four 60 foot tall heads. The project cost just under $1 million, most of which was funded by the federal government. And the job of its preservation was handed over to the national park service in 1933. To many, Mount Rushmore became an incredible example of engineering art and a symbol of national pride. The site evolved into a destination with over 2 million people visiting each year after the monument's completion on October 31, 1941. Halloween.

[Co-host]

Oh.

[Cassie]

A walkway of flags were added in 1976. A vast viewing terrace was completed in the 1990s, along with the museum telling the story of the carving's creation. But many of those exhibits failed to tell the deeper truth, that the land itself had been illegally ripped from the people to whom it had been promised by the US Government, assuring indigenous communities that it was there for, quote, as long as the grass shall grow and the rivers flow. So let's get in. Now that we know how it was created, the story behind the building of Mount Rushmore, let's get into how the US Government took that land. You know how every family has that one wild child, or should I say wild killed dog? Yeah, that's Ember. She's the tornado of our house. Full of energy, always up for an adventure, and somehow manages to find every single mud puddle within a mile radius. And then there's Tucker, our sweet, loyal boy. He's the calm to her chaos and the one who follows me from room to room just to lay nearby. They couldn't be more different, but they're both my best friends and I do anything to give them long, happy, healthy lives. That's why I switched to Ollie. Ollie makes fresh human grade meals that are actually made with real ingredients. No weird fillers or mystery meat. Each recipe is crafted by vet nutritionists and slow cooked for top nutrition. And let me tell you, even Ember, who's usually too busy running laps around the yard to care about food, goes nuts at mealtime. Tucker, of course, the perfect boy. He does this happy little tail wag and sits perfectly until I give him the okay. What I love most is how easy it is. Ollie tailors meal plans to your dog's specific needs. Needs. Everything arrives perfectly portioned and they even include a scoop and puptainer to keep your fridge clean and stink free. Plus, their app is genius. You can message real pet experts anytime and get personalized advice for your pup. Since switching Ember's coat is shinier, Tucker's energy is up and both of them just seem happier. It's amazing what food can really do. Your dog's well being starts with their food and that's why Ollie delivers fresh human grade food that your dog will love. Head to ollie.com npad tell them about your dog and use code npad to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's o l l I-e.com NPAD and enter code NPAD to get 60% off your first box. Long before a chisel touched the granite, the United States had signed the Treaty of Fort Laramie in 1868 with the Sioux Nation, which included the Brulee peoples, Oglala, Miniconjo, Yang, Toni, Hunk, Papa, and others, along with the Arapaho allies. The treaty recognized the Black Hills as part of the Great Sioux reservation, reserved exclusively for Native use. It promised peace and protection in exchange for an end to hostilities with white settlers. And for a brief period of time, peace was held by both parties. To the Lakota, the Black Hills were the spiritual center of the world, a sacred place of origin and prayer. But when gold was discovered there in 1874, the government broke its own promise when miners flooded in by the thousands. President Ulysses S. Grant declared any Lakota who refused to move off that land and onto other reservations as hostile, and the US army was sent to drive them out. What followed was the Great sioux War of 1876-1877, which was a violent clash between the US government and the allied forces at the Lakota, Northern Cheyenne, and the Arapaho peoples. The war spread across the northern plains from the Bighorn Mountains of Wyoming to the Yellowstone river in Montana. It wasn't a single battle, but a relentless campaign of attacks, counterattacks, and destruction. The army burned lodges and food stores while Native warriors attacked wagon trains and forts. And I think when. When I was researching this, one thing that I came across, I was like, oh, so these didn't happen in the Black Hills? And I think that that's a important delineation to make, is that all of these battles and wars weren't happening in necessarily the Black Hills, but all of them were because they were trying to keep their land in the Black Hills.

[Co-host]

Okay, understood.

[Cassie]

In March 1876, Colonel Joseph Reynolds led U.S. soldiers in a dawn raid on Northern Cheyenne and Oglala Lakota villages along the Powder River. They destroyed more than 100 lodges, burned food supplies, and killed civilians, mostly women and children. Only a handful of Native people died that morning, but it united the tribes in anger. That spring, as new alliances formed, a quiet leader emerged among them. His name was Crazy Horse. Born to Shunko around 1840 near Rapid Creek, he had shown vision and courage since he was a child. He wasn't a chief by inheritance, but by spirit. As a teenager, he had completed the rite of hablachaya, which means crying for a vision, which was fasting alone in the hills until he saw a purpose. When he returned, he painted a lightning bolt across his face and a feather in his hair, and he rode into battle. He was known for humility, never boasting and never posing for photographs, believing A picture could steal a person's soul. By the summer of 1876, Crazy Horse was leading warriors into battle against overwhelming odds. Gods. On June 17th he and roughly 1500 Sioux and Cheyenne fighters clashed with General George Cook's 1000 soldiers at the Battle of Rosebud. After seven hours of fierce fighting, Crook retreated suffering nine dead and 21 wounded. The Native alliance had 28 killed and 56 wounded. It was a costly but strategic victory that prevented Crook from joining Custer before the next great confrontation. Just over a week later, Custer rode towards the Little Bighorn river in southeastern Montana. There, more than 7,000 Lakota, northern Cheyenne and Arapaho had gathered for the summer hunt. It was the largest indigenous encampment the Plains had ever seen. Custer ignored warnings that the village was far larger than expected. On June 25th he divided his seventh calvary into three detachments and charged into the valley. Within hours his command was surrounded by warriors led by Crazy Horse and two other leaders, Chief Gaul and Two Moons. Custer and more than 260 of his men were killed, including his brothers and nephew. The Lakota called it the Battle of Greasy Grass. To the US it would be remembered as Custer's last stand. It was one of the few times in American history when native forces decisively defeated the U.S. army. But the victory would bring a devastating retaliation. News of Custer's defeat spread quickly. The US government launched a full scale campaign to crush the Sioux and their allies. Through the winter of 1876 and into 1877 the army pushed relentlessly. Colonel Nelson Miles fought Crazy Horses band at Wolf Mountain in January. It was a bitter freezing battle, snow knee deep, wind howling through the hills. The Lakota and Cheyenne fought bravely but were outgunned and starving. The buffalo herds that had sustained them were gone as the U. S Army had slaughtered them to deprive them of of food. And that always just reading that reminds me of that picture that I'm sure a lot of listeners have seen before is of the there's a white man sitting on top of a massive pile of skulls of bison Y and the whole, I think to understand that photo fully the context behind why they were eradicating bison was because that was a food source for that was a main food source for indigenous people and who had been thriving off the land with them and keeping their populations alive for thousands of years and then white men came in and just decimated them to almost near extinction.

[Co-host]

Yeah, and that has been a topic for an episode that we have both had on our minds for year, quite literally years And I have a book.

[Cassie]

Right on my bookshelf over here about it. So it's, it's gonna happen at some point. Point for sure.

[Co-host]

And there's. What was the. I think it's the Ken Burns documentary about the bison as well. And we have a lot. Long story short, we. It's coming at some point. It's just such a heavy and important. And it's a topic that needs. Not that we go into any episode lightly and of course, hopefully it comes across that. That we care deeply about each episode that we do, but that one is just so all encompassing and really needs to be done with a lot of research and care and. Because it's just, it's not just about bison, right?

[Cassie]

No, it's not.

[Co-host]

You know, it goes so much deeper and there's so much to it, especially coming out of the other side of it now with recognizing what happened and trying to right that wrong and working with different indigenous cultures to bring bison back and yada, yada.

[Cassie]

So yeah, yeah, it's very much, yeah, it's very much an ongoing topic. I mean this happened hundreds of years ago at this point, but it still has affected the landscape that we see today. And interestingly enough, what they did at this time, even today, I know you go to Yellowstone and you see bison everywhere and you're like, oh wow, like they're back, they're back. And that's not true because most, most, the majority of bison populations in the US are farm raised where they used to be wild across the Midwest and West. So it's this ongoing battle of restoring these populations and where they can live and because of course the lands have changed a lot since, since that time. But anyway, it's a very long conversation that goes into the treatment of indigenous people, but also huge conservation efforts, efforts that are bleeding into today.

[Co-host]

Yeah, there's one thing, you know, the just different questions and prompts and thought starters that people sometimes share, you know, as like icebreakers or just things to consider. There's one that's always like, if you could go back in time, you know, the, the, the one that everyone really asks is like if you could have dinner with somebody from the past who's now deceased, who would it be and what would you talk about? Type of thing. Yeah, mine is, I love to think, think or ask people about if you could go back in time and witness and if you could go back in time and witness a historical event, what would it be? And I don't know if this is like an event, but it's Something that we will never, certainly never see again in our lifetimes or probably ever, considering the way things are going. But I would just love to bear witness to a great herd of bison in the plains of America, or what is now America. Just the sheer amount of those animals and just how the indigenous people interacted with them and managed them, and just. It's like a herd of animals that the likes of which we will never understand, especially as people who have seen bison in Yellowstone and have been quite literally in the middle of a herd as they're running, and you're like, holy shit, there are so many bison. And, like, your mind, you're like, I. They go on. They seem like they go on forever, but that's just a fraction of what bison herds used to look like. And I just think it would be so cool to witness something like that and just to see the wilds of what is now America before we decimated everything. I mean, intentionally, in this case, to see the.

[Cassie]

To see America before settlers arrive.

[Co-host]

Yes. Oh, my God. Just a glimpse. Just a snapshot.

[Cassie]

Yeah, that would be really interesting.

[Co-host]

So cool. Anyway, okay. Please go on.

[Cassie]

So going back into this battle and this war that's going on, the Great Sea War that's happening, they were in these battles that were happening in the midst of winter. They're now starving the indigenous people out, which are making things hard. And by spring, Crazy Horses people were trapped between hunger and annihilation from settlers. By May 1877, Crazy Horse knew that the fight was over. Other bands had surrendered and were being fed at the Red Cloud Agency near what is now Crawford, Nebraska. He decided that to save his people, he would do the same to him. He wasn't surrendering or giving up. It was giving his people a chance to survive and make a comeback at a later time. The procession that arrived there on May 6 was silent and solemn with 900 people, families weak from hunger, and 2,000 horses. Witnesses said that the moment was both heartbreaking and admirable. Crazy Horse dismounted, shook hands with the commanding officer and laid down his rifle. And that marked the end of the great Sioux War. Peace at the Red Cloud Agency, however, was not the kind of peace Crazy Horse had imagined. The agency sat on the wide plains near Nebraska's Pine Ridge, surrounded by soldiers and fences. Rations of flour, salt pork and coffee replaced the wild game his people had once hunted. Each family received a number, and each of their movements were tracked. The government agents counted them like livestock and gave food rations based on the obedience of the people. Traditional ceremonies were forbidden and Dancing was seen as a rebellion. Crazy horse kept to himself. He refused to travel east to meet politicians, declined to join delegations that posed for photographs, and turned away anyone who asked him to perform for visit. His only wish was to lead his people back to the black hills, the sacred land promised to them in the treaty of fort laramie. But his silence unsettled the army. Soon, rumors spread that he planned to leave the reservation, that he would rise again in rebellion. None of it was true, but the fear was enough. In September 1877, General George Cook ordered crazy horse to be brought in for questioning. Crazy horse was told it was just a meeting. But when he arrived at camp robinson, the military post guarding the red agency, and saw soldiers waiting with chains, he realized that they had lied. He resisted, and in the struggle, a soldier stabbed him with a bayonet. Friends carried him to a nearby building, but he refused medical help. He died that night at about 37 years old.

[Co-host]

37. Wow. Yeah, it's young.

[Cassie]

It is really young. His death was the final blow to the lakota resistance. The black hills were officially seized by the u. S. Government the same year, despite treaty promises. For the lakota, it was not merely the loss of land. It was the loss of a way of life. But crazy horse's name lived on, carried like a flame through generations. He became a symbol of defiance and dignity, a reminder that freedom was worth fighting for, even when the fight could not be won. Decades passed. The buffalo were slaughtered to near extinction, and reservations confined families to government rations. Children were sent to boarding schools with their hair cut and their language beaten out of them. And high above the pines, Mount rushmore towered over the lost land with the faces of the men who had taken everything. As the weather cools, I'm officially swapping in the pieces that actually get the job done. Warm, durable, and built to last. And honestly, quint delivers every single time. Their wardrobe staples carry me straight through the season. Right now, I'm obsessed with their suede trucker jacket. It's the perfect layering piece. It somehow manages to look casual and put together, which is exactly what I need for those days I'm running from recording to errands to dinner. And don't even get me started on their 100 Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They start at just $60, feel amazing, and hold up wash after wash. What I love about quints is that they work directly with ethical factories and top artisans, cutting out the middlemen to bring you premium quality at a fraction of the price. The quality really holds up, too. My Quint pieces have become total go to's, and I've even started exploring their home collection, their bedding and travel accessories just as good as their clothes. Layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they Look. Go to quint.com npad for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I N C E.com npad free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com npad in the 1930s, as Mount Rushmore's carvings neared completion, an Oklahoma Lakota leader named Chief Henry Standing Bear, Crazy Horse's cousin, decided his people needed a monument of their own. He had watched the faces of the presidents take shape on sacred ground and felt the sting of erasure. He said, the white man has his heroes carved in the Black Hills. The red man should have his, too. In 1939, Standing Bear wrote to Polish American sculptor Korzak Ziofski, who had once worked under Borglum. My fellow chiefs and I would like the white man to know that the red man has great heroes too, he told him. He offered Ziokovsky a mountain to carve a monument of Crazy Horse. It was Thunder Mountain, 17 miles from Mount Rushmore, and there was one condition. No government money was to be used. The project would be funded by the people, with no help from the same government that had stolen the hills in the first place. The sculptor was moved by the offer, and he agreed. On June 3, 1948, the first blast of dynamite thundered through the valley, marking the beginning of the Crazy Horse memorial. Ziokovsky worked mostly alone in those early years. There were no paved roads, no electricity, only wooden steps, rope and willpower. He envisioned a monument 563ft high and 641ft long, vast enough to fit all Mount Rushmore's presidents. Inside Crazy Horses head and chest, his vision was immense. The warrior would sit on his horse, arm outstretched, pointing towards the land of his ancestors. When once asked by a white man, where are your lands now? Crazy Horse had replied, my lands are where my dead lie buried. The sculptor sought to capture that defiance forever in stone. The monument would serve to remember a man who had fought not for conquest but for the right to live free on his own land. After the sculptor's death in 1982, his wife, Ruth, and their 10 children continued his work. Ruth made a practical decision to finish Crazy Horse's face first. She hoped that progress would draw visitors and raise the money needed to complete the rest. In 1998, after 50 years of labor, the face was unveiled at 87ft tall, 27ft higher than any Mount Rushmore's president. One face took half a century of dedication, and the mountain today still waits to be shaped into the full image of the horse and rider. Today, the Crazy Horse Memorial remains privately funded through donations and ticket sales. At its base stands the Indian Museum of North America and the Native American Educational and Cultural center center, where thousands of artifacts and artwork preserve the heritage that others tried to erase. The foundation also offers college scholarships to Native students across the continent. Every year, more than a million people visit. Twice annually, the memorial hosts a night blast where explosions of dynamite and fireworks illuminate the mountain. 1 On June 26, honoring the anniversary of the Battle of Little Bighorn, and another on September 6th 6th, the Night Crazy Horse died. Some criticize the scale of the project. Others question whether Crazy Horse himself would have wanted a monument at all. He refused portraits. In life, he sought humility, not glory. But many Lakota leaders see the mountain as a living reminder that their story did not end in 1877. It continues carved inch by inch, generation after generation. The Crazy Horse memorial is not based on any photograph because there are none. It's an interpretation and embodiment of spirit rather than likeness. When completed, it will be the second largest monument in the world, surpassed only by India's Statue of Unity. Yet even unfinished, it already stands as something greater than stone. Looking up from the valley below, the sight of that face emerging from the granite feels like a heartbeat returning to the mountain. It's not just the image of a man. It's the story of a people who refused to disappear. The Black Hills remain sacred, and the legal battle over them continues. In 1980, more than a century after the government seized them, the U. S. Supreme Court ruled that the land had been taken illegally and awarded the Sioux Nation $106 million in compensation. The tribes refused the money, saying the Black Hills were never for sale. The settlement now sits in a government trust accruing interest that has grown into more than a billion dollars. Holy sh. And still remains untouched. For the Lakota, the issue is not wealth. It is justice. For them, you cannot sell the heart of their world. The contrast between Mount Rushmore and Crazy Horse couldn't be sharper. On one mountain, four presidents gaze out over land taken in their names. On another, a Lakota warrior points towards that same land as if reminding the world whose story came first. Each year, as Indigenous Peoples Day replaces Columbus Day on more calendars, more communities are choosing to remember not the conquerors, but the voices that they silenced. It's a small step, but a powerful one. It's a shift in how nations decide what history deserves to be honored. It also continues the conversation about how Mount Rushmore should be used today. The Lakota people have protested its use for years, some arguing that it should be treated more like a Holocaust memorial than a bright celebration of American history. The Black Hills were never empty. They were taken. The treaties were broken, the promises erased. But in Pahasapa, the heart of the world for the Lakota, the story is still being told. And if you stand there at the base of Thunderhead Mountain as the light fades and the face of Crazy Horse glows in the setting sun, you can imagine him when he said, my lands are where my dead lie buried. And that is my story of the dark history of Mount Rushmore and. And remembering the Indigenous communities.

[Co-host]

With Crazy Horse, I think that that was like, a top three episode of yours. Really? Yeah. Or in general, like, National Park After Dark combined, like, fully.

[Cassie]

Thank you.

[Co-host]

I really, really enjoyed that. And it was so moving. Like, a couple times I teared up a little bit because it's just. I mean, it. It pulls on something deep, I think, with everyone who is kind of going back to the beginning. My comments about reexamining and taking a closer look at what America was built on. And while there are really amazing parts of our history, there are equal, if not more parts that are like this, that they're built on death and conquering other people and injustices and lying and trickery and just. It's hard to face that, you know, and especially seeing, you know, a lot of Indigenous communities today, like, fight so hard to, you know, raise awareness for that, that this, yes, it did happen, and that's one thing, but it also is still happening, and it's a fight that's very still. I don't know, just. I feel like I'm rambling a lot this episode, but I think it's just. It was a really impactful episode, and I think it's such a perfect example of just something that we need to keep doing, and that's just re examining what we've been fed our whole lives. And I think that this is actually also. I put this in our newsletter this month, but this is a perfect opportunity to shout this out, because we haven't talked about this formally on the podcast yet, although we have talked about it amongst ourselves and on our social media and stuff here and there. But in particular, I included an organization in our October newsletter that went out a couple weeks ago. It's usually the first week of the month that we send it out. And it is an organization called Save Our Signs. And I just want to briefly read what they're about because it's so fitting for. Okay, the whole topic of what you just went over, and it says, save our Signs celebrate all American history. The National Park Service is the nation's largest outdoor history classroom, spanning 400 sites. The parks work tirelessly to fulfill their legal mandate to steward our nation's stories and make them accessible to all Americans. Real history is not just happy stories. The Secretary of the Interior has asked. Asked people to report signs in the parks that, quote, inappropriately disparage Americans past or living. This grows out of Executive Order 14, 2 53, Restoring Truth Insanity to American History, which seeks to erase, quote, unquote, negative stories from public view. Content deemed inappropriate was ordered to be removed by September 17th of this year, but we know that the process is ongoing and some signs have already been removed. Join our effort to build a community archive of the signs, exhibits, and texts that could soon disappear from our national parks. We must act quickly to preserve all American stories. And then it goes on to outline how to do that. And essentially it's asking you to. If you're in a national park and you see signage that you think would be targeted by this executive order, to take a picture and upload it to their database so that we can have, like, a living archive of these signs and exhibits that are at risk of being removed under this administration so that we don't lose them and that we can preserve what they say and hopefully bring them back at some point once this executive order, hopefully later on is overturned. But, yeah, so it's a really cool organization. And it's all. It's run by librarians and public historians, like, they co founded this project.

[Cassie]

Wow.

[Co-host]

And I just think it's. I mean, it's a huge topic of conversation right now across the nation, but specifically within national parks. You know, it. This is outrageous.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

And this is a perfect example. It's like, why this episode is important. Perfect example.

[Cassie]

Yeah. History is so important. And it's not political either. You know, I think that this is just something where we as Americans have a right. Right to know about our heritage in our country and to know what has happened here, the full story. And it also does such a disservice to the people who were here before us and who are still here, their history as well. Just because something is ugly, just because something is sad and bad, doesn't mean that it should not be remembered. And I think part of the argument when you look at Mount Rushmore, it's like, where do we go from here with Mount Rushmore? Because. Because it's this huge, imposing monument that's overlooking. What do you do with it? And there's been a lot of conversations around that of giving the land back to the Lakota people or, you know, or some people have been like, should it be removed? You know, And I think those. That's not a decision for, like, you or I to make. That would solely be in the hands of the people that it affects the most, I think, of the Lakota people who are there. But, but it is re examining how we honor history, how we remember it, and making sure we remember every part of it. And I think that that is such a good point of. I love that this project exists and that if our listeners could go out and if you see anything. Because of course we know our listeners. We want to know all the dark, the dark stuff is the interesting stuff, you know, but we wanna, we wanna know what, what's, what's there. And if you see stuff, send it in. Yeah, put a link in the show description too, so you can get to it quick. You know how we've all heard that we eat a credit card's worth of plastic every week? Well, I recently learned that a lot of that comes from inside our own homes, including the cleaning products we use every single day. I was shocked to find out that detergent pods and other cleaners are full of microplastics. Which means even when we think we are keeping our homes clean, we might actually be spreading more plastic around. That's why I've made the switch to Blueland. Across all cleaning products around my house, their products meet the highest standards of clean. They're effective, yet gentle. On my family and the planet, Blueland was also named an EPA Safer Choice Partner of the Year. From cleaning sprays and toilet bowl cleaners to dishwasher and laundry detergent tablets, Blueland's formulas are 100% microplastic free, made with certified clean ingredients free from chlorine, bleach and harsh chemicals that are safe to use around my family and of course, my pets, I love not having to choose between the safe option and what actually gets my house clean. My favorite are the laundry tablets. They're small but seriously so powerful. They lift the toughest stains. Grass, food, you name it. And my clothes come out fresh and soft every time. Plus, I love that Blueland is trusted in over a Million homes and certified by epa, Safer Choice, EWG Verified, Leaping Bunny, USDA Biobased and B Corp. That's a list I can actually feel good about supporting. Blueland has a special offer for listeners right now. Get 15% off your first order by going to blueland.com nph you won't want to miss this. Blueland.com npad for 15 off. That's blueland.com npad for15% off.

[Co-host]

And I think, I mean this is just perfect again because we have been to these places and in the same day, you know, a back to back experience science. And like you said in when you were telling the episode, you know, like the, the car, the contrast couldn't be sharper and we saw that in real time. And I think you know, what is the answer. Of course that's up for debate. I do, I foresee Mount Rushmore being demolished. No, no, I don't, I don't even.

[Cassie]

Know if I necessarily think it should, believe it should be. But that also is not my, my, not my decision to make, you know. But no, it is a standing monument of a really dark history, I think.

[Co-host]

I mean because based on our experience when we were there in what, 2022.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

I didn't learn any about any bit of this at Mount Rushmore.

[Cassie]

No, I only was at Crazy Horse. Yes, most of the stuff at Mount Rushmore and there's like small nods to indigenous communities at Mount Rushmore. But when we were there it was all about talking about the building and construction of Mount Rushmore itself.

[Co-host]

And like the sculptor and the process.

[Cassie]

Of who it did not say on the signs had ties to the kkk.

[Co-host]

Oh absolutely.

[Cassie]

That was not conveniently omitted as well.

[Co-host]

Yeah. But yeah, I think that a, an approach that maybe would toe the line between both ends of this is just incorporating the, the truth in its entirety. And as we just said with the Save Our Science project, we're going in the opposite direction of that probably. But in a perfect world, at least. I don't know if perfect's the right word but in a better world, all of this information would be made available at both places. And Crazy Horse is not managed by the government and they can do whatever they want and they're doing an amazing, fantastic. Crazy Horse is one them of of the best places I have ever been. We've been all over the world, so that's saying something. And it was just so moving. Its scale is breathtaking. Just adds just physically visiting there and like gazing upon this giant.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

You know, accomplishment. Of course it goes so much deeper than that. And everything they're doing there, with all of the museum and the education and the films we watched there, and we.

[Cassie]

Got to partake in Indigenous indigenous ceremonial dance when we were there. We got to watch. You know, I. You could buy. They had so many books.

[Co-host]

Oh, yeah.

[Cassie]

On their history there. You know, it was just such a. You could feel how meaningful and special that this place was. In compare Mount Rushmore felt oppressed. It felt really oppressive there. It felt like it was lacking information. And you kind of walked up to it and you're like, oh, that's it. And then you go to Crazy Horse Horse. And it's just such a different feeling being there, which is really, for me was really interesting because before we had started planning our trips to South Dakota, I had never heard of Crazy Horse. And then we got there and it was like, wow, this is so impactful. And it's in such a special and sacred place to a lot of people. And I just think that it is a place that deserves a lot more. A lot more knowledge. Knowledge about. And I was looking at the comparison of visitors. So there's about 2 million people who visit every year to Mount Rushmore and there's about 1 million who go to Crazy Horse.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Cassie]

And when you look at that, 1 million is fantastic. But when you look that there's 2 million at Mount Rushmore and it's a 20 minute drive between the two places, there's a million people that could also be seeing Crazy Horse. And so if you have plans to go to Mount Rushmore, you should add Crazy Horse to your list because you need to see both sides of the history.

[Co-host]

Yeah, it's a. Both sides of the coin type of thing. I'm trying to remember. I don't think there is any. I mean, maybe I'm so wrong and it's also been years, so maybe it has changed. But I don't recall there being information about Crazy Horse at Mount Rushmore. Like, oh, you should also go see this.

[Cassie]

I can't say if there was or wasn't. I don't remember. But to be. We, in all fairness, for us, we did not spend a lot of time there. We walked up to it. We walked through the museum.

[Co-host]

Oh, Mount Rushmore.

[Cassie]

Mount Rushmore. Yeah. We didn't spend all that much time there because we had learned about Crazy Horse before. And we kind of walked around looking to see if they acknowledged the indigenous history in the lands. And we found that they really didn't. Like, they had a couple artifacts of indigenous people There, but there wasn't really all that much. And we're like, all right, let's go to a Crazy Horse and learn the real story.

[Co-host]

And we. And it didn't disappoint.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

And. Yeah, I don't know, we could talk about this all day because it was just one of our favorite places we've ever been to and it was so special and meaningful and it's somewhere that I would love to revisit. And I don't really say that a ton.

[Cassie]

You know, I've been thinking about the Badlands a lot lately.

[Co-host]

Have you?

[Cassie]

The Black Hills and the Badlands have been. Been on my mind a lot lately. And I'm like, do I do it? Do I.

[Co-host]

When would you do it? Is the better question right now, probably.

[Cassie]

I just. Yeah, it's just you can tell that it's sacred land for a reason and that there's a lot of. There's a lot of very special energy there. And it's beautiful. I mean, it's incredible.

[Co-host]

And the fact that I'm like, wow, we could talk about this all day.

[Cassie]

We should stay.

[Co-host]

Stop. One more thing. The. And you touched upon it in your story. But the fact that they are just. And we learned about this when we were there also, there was like a short 15 minute film that we watched, you know, that just like runs in the museum that we started off.

[Cassie]

Crazy Horse.

[Co-host]

Yep, Yep. At Crazy Horse. That they are just not accepting of government funding in any way, shape or form, even though they have access to it. It's been offered. It could have. The project could have been done by now.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

And that's. It's just. That's not the point. And I think in a world where money talks and is the loudest in the room and kind of overshadows and is just the deciding factor in so many aspects of life, to see that over generations too, not just like, oh, this one group of people said no. And then, you know, a few decades later, things change and whatever. Maybe people consider it and then, no, it's just such a. Like, absolutely not. This is, you know, this is our thing and we're going to do it our way. And respectfully, no, thank you.

[Cassie]

Yeah, we're not going to take money from the same government that tried to eradicate us.

[Co-host]

It's just such a badass move, to be honest.

[Cassie]

It's just.

[Co-host]

It's just so rad. I.

[Cassie]

And the fact that it's so much bigger than Mount Rushmore.

[Co-host]

I know.

[Cassie]

Is just like the biggest move.

[Co-host]

I mean, it's a mic drop move. It is. It's like, what, are you gonna make Mount Rushmore bigger? You can't.

[Cassie]

You can't. Like you did you with it. Yeah, it. It is such a power move. Such a power move. And the construction for Crazy Horse, I mean, they say that it could take another 50, 60 years to be completed because that's just how steadfast they are in only accepting donations and not through the government. And so the best way to really support them is to visit and to spend your money there.

[Co-host]

Yeah. And if you want to, you know, they accept donations online and things like that. And we're, you know, we mentioned last week that we're putting together a gift guide for outsiders for the holiday season. We're also, once that approaches, we're going to try and put together a little guide for donations, kind of like a online giving tree type of thing, and highlight different organizations that we. We've talked about throughout, throughout episodes and just different projects that really, really rely on public donations to operate. And this will definitely be included, like, if you are interested in supporting. But the best way to do so is visit, show your support not only in dollars, but in your presence. You know, it takes time and care to go somewhere. And just showing up means a lot.

[Cassie]

Yeah. And just showing your willingness to learn. I mean, this has all been the history of what we thought was Mount Rushmore, at least for myself. And I'm sure I'm talking to a lot of people who feel the same way. Has been ingrained in us as this patriotic symbol of being American. And it is a symbol, but it.

[Co-host]

Has a lot something for sure.

[Cassie]

And as you touched on before critical thinking, like in encourage yourself to learn more about something, about anything. It doesn't even have to be necessarily just this. But if you're seeing some part of history that you're interested in, don't take it for what someone's telling you it is. Do the research. Find. Find out yourself. There's a. A lot of. We're going to bring you more and more information all the time because we love this stuff, but there's a lot of history out there that is really. It's missed and not heard of as much and is just as important as the history you've learned.

[Co-host]

Yeah. And I think kind of to wrap this up, going back to the question of what. What would we do if we had the decision, which we don't. But what. Well, what's the right thing to do with Mount Rushmore given this information now? Like, if we were all on the same page. And we're like, okay, so this is the full story. What do we do with this monument now? I think that the right thing to do is to just keep it as it is, as a piece of that history, because it's not about totally going now the opposite way and being like, it's all about Crazy Horse and we should totally forget about Matt and Rushmore, Obliterate it. We don't even want to think about it. Like, it's important. Important. It's important that it exists, but it's important for us to know why it's there and how it became what it is today in its entirety. So it's not about saying, screw Mount Rushmore. I don't think it should exist. I think that we should just know the whole thing.

[Cassie]

Yeah. And there are Lakota leaders that are calling for it to be turned into a memorial for the indigenous people who were murdered and massacred during the Great Sea War and other battles. Because that was. I mean, that was the land that they were fighting for, is where Mount Rushmore is now standing. So a lot of leaders not. And like you said, not to demolish Mount Rushmore, but to change the way.

[Co-host]

That we honor, instead of, like, glorifying it for something, for what we have been fed. It's like, oh, maybe it's not so lovely.

[Cassie]

And also a call out to. Maybe we should change the name of Mount Rushmore back to its original. I mean, it's very widely acknowledged as the Six Grandfathers. When you look at any. Any history books and stuff, it's. There's like a nod to this was what the Lakota people named it, but everyone knows it at Mount Rushmore. So.

[Co-host]

Yeah, especially there, like, when you're visiting that area, the Badlands and the Black Hills specifically, you'll see a lot of things referencing that. And I remember seeing that for the first time when we were there and not knowing what it was referencing.

[Cassie]

Yeah. You know, yeah. So maybe we should also change the name. But again, these are not decisions that are up to us. It's up to the people who have been wronged there, who, however, they feel that the land should be treated now, I think is their right. Right. And I hope that at some point we see. I don't know if that means the federal government giving over the national. Because it's run by the National Park Service, so it's federal land now. So I don't know what that looks like. Is it giving the land back? Is it making the indigenous communities there, the people who have the say over the land. You know, I think that there's. We're seeing a lot of national parks that are. Are incorporating indigenous communities, but it's still in the early stages and is a work in progress. So I hope to see that there is something that can come together between the US Government and the indigenous communities that are there where. Where the wrongs that have been committed are righted in a way that feels. That feels like the right thing to do.

[Co-host]

Yeah. Well, thank you so much again. Again. I. I don't. There's not much more to say other than. Well, there's so much more to say. But as far as our conversation goes here for this episode, like I said, it's a top episode. I loved it so much. So thought provoking, so moving. Very well done. Thank you for sharing with us, especially on this day. I mean, congratulations to that. Like, thank you so much. And I know, like, it just lined up perfectly, you know, this year. Year.

[Cassie]

So, yeah, I saw it came out on Indigenous Peoples Day, also known as Columbus Day, which I didn't mention this, but also Columbus Day is still a federal holiday, which I think needs to be. I know the federal government does acknowledge Indigenous Peoples Day now, but they don't have it as a federal government, and I think that Columbus Day should just be thrown out the window.

[Co-host]

A federal holiday, you mean?

[Cassie]

Yeah, a federal holiday.

[Co-host]

It's not. I didn't know that.

[Cassie]

Yeah, it's a federal.

[Co-host]

Just accepted that, like, because. Because it's kind of taking hold that it was.

[Cassie]

Oh, yeah. If you go on the Mount Rushmore website, it'll say federal holiday, Columbus Day, which I think is very ironic and should be changed. So hopefully that's something that we see in the future too, because there's no reason to be celebrated. I still think you should get your day off from work. I'm not arguing against that. It should be a federal holiday. You should get your day off from work. But let's not honor a rapist and a conqueror.

[Co-host]

Oh, yeah. It says it's not yet an official holiday, though it has received annual presidential proclamations in Recognize it recognizing it since 2021.

[Cassie]

Yeah. So it's very new. It should be switched to a federal holiday and everyone should get the day off. And we should all remember stories like these ones.

[Co-host]

All right, well, thank you, everyone, so much for joining us. And the next people are like, oh, my God. Okay, we know it's October over, but this was important. Spooky is fun and great and we love it. But, like, this was this just takes precedence over.

[Cassie]

We have a lot of spooky stuff coming up next.

[Co-host]

Three weeks in a row, people. Next get ready in a row. And the bonus story is creepier theme, too. So it's coming.

[Cassie]

It's coming. We hear you.

[Co-host]

We're out here. All right.

[Cassie]

Spooky season is here.

[Co-host]

Thank you, everyone. Enjoy the view or. Well, what? Okay, sorry. Wow. All right, everyone, we will see you next week. In the meantime, please enjoy the view.

[Cassie]

But watch your back.

[Co-host]

Bye, everyone.

[Cassie]

Bye.

[Co-host]

Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear exclusive bonus stories, join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Patreon subscribers have access to our National Park After Dark book club, live streams, Discord and much more. If you prefer to watch our episodes, video episodes are now available on YouTube. If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. And to follow along with all our adventures, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and X @ National Park After Dark.

[Cassie]

Hello, Sydney.

[Co-host]

You're dead.

[Cassie]

Dead is just a word on October.

[Co-host]

17, Mr. Grabber, she came to meet my dream.

[Cassie]

See the movie that audiences are losing sleep over. What do you think happens when you.

[Co-host]

Die in a dream?

[Cassie]

It's time to find out.

[Co-host]

Ethan.

[Cassie]

Honking not afraid of you? You should be.

[Co-host]

Black Phone 2 only in theaters October 17th.

[Cassie]

Rated R.