Summary7 min read

National Park After Dark

Episode 343: Murder or Kidnapping in a Gateway Town: New River Gorge National Park
Date: December 22, 2025
Hosts: Danielle & Cassie

Episode Overview

In this haunting holiday episode, Danielle and Cassie dig into the enduring mystery of the 1945 Sodder family tragedy in Fayetteville, West Virginia—gateway to the New River Gorge National Park. Five Sodder children vanished on Christmas Eve under suspicious circumstances after a house fire. Despite decades of investigation, their fate remains unsolved and continues to shape the identity and folklore of this Appalachian gateway town. The hosts explore the case, local lore, and the broader question of what happens when tragedy without closure becomes part of a town's DNA.

Key Discussion Points & Episode Breakdown

1. Gateway Towns and Their Haunted Histories

[00:04] Cassie: “There are towns that never fully escape their past, places where a single unanswered tragedy becomes woven into everyday life... shaping how a community understands itself and why some places feel permanently unsettled.”
- References infamous unresolved tragedies in other U.S. towns as a lens for the Sodder case.
- Sets up Fayetteville as a community forever marked by the mystery surrounding the lost Sodder children.

2. Anecdotes: Gateway Towns & Tourism Culture

[02:10 – 08:16] Danielle & Cassie: Exchange humorous, candid observations about their experiences in other gateway towns, specifically Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge, Tennessee (gateway to Great Smoky Mountains NP).
- Danielle is shocked by the contrast between park wilderness and overtly commercialized tourist towns:
  
  “It felt like Disney World in the mountains of Tennessee. And I was not prepared...” [06:22–06:57, Danielle]
- Cassie notes that families seem to love it, but echoes the odd juxtaposition.

3. Spotlight: Fayetteville & New River Gorge

[09:34 – 14:22] Cassie: Paints a vivid portrait of Fayetteville, West Virginia:
- Touted as one of America’s coolest towns; population ~2,800.
- Long Appalachian history, diverse community.
- Sits on the rim of New River Gorge—offers world-class rock climbing, whitewater rafting, & the massive New River Gorge Bridge.
- Recaps BASE jumping “Bridge Day” festivities and the town’s outdoor recreation identity.
- [12:27] Bonus anecdote: A woman who tried to fake her own death at New River Gorge (from a Patreon bonus episode).

4. Fayetteville’s Layered History

[16:42 – 18:14] Cassie: Reviews Fayetteville’s Civil War-era roots, historic district, and ghost tours.
[17:46] Danielle: Shares her own recent ghost-tour experience in Knoxville, setting up the town’s affinity for haunted, mysterious history.

5. The Sodder Family Christmas Eve Mystery

[18:17 – 47:24] Main segment: Detailed account of the Sodder case
- The Night of the Fire [19:15 – 23:02]
  - George and Jenny Sodder, Italian immigrants, celebrated with nine of their ten children.
  - Five children (ages 5–14) allowed to stay up late.
  - A series of odd events: a wrong-number call [19:15], loud bang and rolling sound on the roof [20:38], unexplained fire just after 1:30am [20:57].
  - Family members try to escape. All but five children make it out.
  - Multiple attempts to reach fire department fail; volunteer fire crew arrives seven hours later.
- Strange Circumstances & Early Theories
  - No trace of children’s remains found; fire chief claims fire “hot enough to cremate” [24:07].
  - Family doubts: Fire not hot enough to fully cremate bodies; household items survived.
  - Jenny conducts bone-burning experiments and consults a crematorium—bodies should have left traces [32:13].
- Suspicious Incidents Before the Fire
  - Strange work-seeker comments on fuse boxes (“they’ll cause a fire someday”) [27:16].
  - Insurance salesman threatens “your house will go up in smoke...your children destroyed as punishment for your criticism of Mussolini” [27:53].
  - Car parts tampered with night of fire; missing ladder, both coal trucks won’t start [21:23, 31:36].
  - Phone line discovered to have been cut, not burned [31:23].
- Sightings & Leads [34:04+]
  - Multiple reported sightings of the children after the fire, including at a diner and hotel in the company of adults “of Italian descent”.
  - Stolen block and tackle device found missing from the family’s vehicles; thief denies involvement in the fire [35:58].
- Local Authorities and Cover-Ups?
  - Coroner’s jury and fire investigators linked to those who threatened or disliked George. Conflict of interest with the insurance man [42:51].
  - Fire chief claims to find a human organ; later shown to be an untouched beef liver, possibly planted to “placate” the family [43:00–44:18].
- Escalating the Search
  - Sodders reach out to J. Edgar Hoover/FBI, but are told it’s a local case [41:49].
  - Private investigator discovers more odd connections and apparent cover-ups.
- Theories: Kidnapping, Organized Crime, Political Retaliation
  - Speculation: Retaliation for George's anti-Mussolini politics or connection to human trafficking ring.
- Physical Evidence & Continued Doubt
  - 1949: New search finds four vertebrae—Smithsonian says they belonged to a teen older than any missing child, with no signs of burning. Theory: bone fragments came from soil brought in for the memorial garden [48:23].
  - Officially, case is closed. Family erects a large billboard offering rewards and keeps searching for decades [51:35].
- Mysterious Photo and Hope
  - 1960s: Sodders receive a photo from Kentucky inscribed “Lewis Sodder. I love Brother Frankie..."—resembles missing son. Private investigator sent to Kentucky disappears and never contacts family again [53:22].
  - The family chooses to publicize the photo but withhold the message to protect possible surviving child [54:36].

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the town’s hauntedness:

"There are places where loss without answers becomes a kind of haunting..."
[04:04, Cassie]
Danielle, about Great Smoky gateway towns:

“It felt like Disney World in the mountains of Tennessee. …It’s a kids paradise.”
[06:22, Danielle]
On the night of the fire:

“George and Jenny escaped the house and immediately realized… five of their children were still missing.”
[21:08, Cassie]
On the official explanation:

“A fire needs to reach 1400–1800 degrees F…to cremate a body. …This intense heat is far hotter and more controlled than a typical house fire.”
[24:09, Cassie]
Danielle, doubting the authorities:

“That’s so crazy. …It’s an insult to their intelligence… these are children they’re talking about.”
[44:04–44:29, Danielle]
On Jenny’s bone-burning experiment:

“Each time she was left with charred but recognizable remains. …Even after two hours at temperatures exceeding 2,000 degrees, bones still remained.”
[32:13, Cassie]
When the mysterious photograph arrives:

“Written on the back were the words ‘Lewis Sodder, I love Brother Frankie…’ The use of his nickname immediately stood out.”
[53:22, Cassie]
Danielle’s heartfelt reflection:

“…it's just so devastatingly awful for that family…to die not knowing, ever knowing, what happened to your children.”
[65:13, Danielle]

The Hosts’ Conclusions & Final Reflections

Was it murder, accident, or kidnapping?
- Both hosts express strong skepticism about the official fire explanation.
  - “With everything you've said, I feel like they were kidnapped.” [63:15, Danielle]
  - “If all five of their children had died in the fire, I think there would have been a lot more evidence.” [62:14, Co-host]
- Open questions remain about why five children vanished without evidence, how the abduction could have happened, and why there was no sign of escape or struggle.
Appeal to Listeners:
- “I would love to hear from people in fire [service]…if that circumstance is as farfetched as it actually appears.” [63:23, Danielle]

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Event | |-----------|-----------------------------------| | 00:04 | Introspective monologue on haunted towns (Cassie) | | 09:34 | Description of Fayetteville & New River Gorge | | 18:17 | Beginning of the Sodder family story | | 21:08 | The outbreak and escape from the house fire | | 24:07 | Fire chief claims fire “cremated” children | | 32:13 | Jenny’s bone-burning experiments | | 34:43 | Reports of children seen after the fire | | 41:49 | Sodders appeal to FBI; private investigation | | 43:00 | Fire chief buries "organ"—beef liver | | 48:23 | 1949 excavation yields non-matching, unburned vertebrae | | 53:22 | Kentucky photograph of “Lewis Sodder” | | 62:40 | Hosts debate theories—final conclusions |

Legacy & Listener Takeaway

Eternal Mystery: The Sodder case endures as a chilling unsolved mystery, woven deeply into Fayetteville’s history and folklore.
Invitation: The family’s search lasted a lifetime; listeners are encouraged to come forward with any information, no matter how small, via the FBI or Fayette County Sheriff’s Office.

Tone & Style

Engaged, empathetic, and informally witty; the hosts blend meticulous research, lived experiences, and dark humor to keep listeners gripped through heavy and speculative content.
Storytelling is immersive and respectful, highlighting both the tragedy and the hope that persists in unresolved loss.

For more chilling tales and National Park lore, visit National Park After Dark or join the community on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and X @nationalparkafterdark.

(End of summary)

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Transcript639 lines

[00:00]
Danielle
Foreign.
[00:04]
Cassie
There are towns that never fully escape their past, places where a single unanswered tragedy becomes woven into everyday life, passed down through generations as rumor, cautionary tales, and quiet unease. Long after investigations stall and the headlines fade, the questions remain, shaping how a community understands itself and why some places feel permanently unsettled. Iowa is defined by the 1912 axe murders that wiped out an entire family and two visiting children. Despite suspects, confessions, and decades of investigation, the case remains officially unsolved. In Pennsylvania, the town of Centralia was slowly erased by an underground coal fire that ignited in 1962 and still burns today. Families were forced to leave. Streets were abandoned, and debate over how the fire truly started has never fully gone away. In Keddy, California, a quiet mountain town became infamous after the brutal 1981 cabin 28 murders, where three people were killed and a child was abducted. A case riddled with evidence, mishandling, and unanswered questions that continue to haunt the community. There are places where loss without answers becomes a kind of haunting, where tragedy is not confined to the past, but woven into the identity of the town itself. And then there's Fayetteville, West Virginia, the gateway town of New River Gorge National Park, a place that still cannot shake the questions surrounding a suspicious fire that left five children unaccounted for. Welcome to National Park After Dark.
[01:55]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Foreign.
[02:04]
Danielle
Hello, everyone, and welcome to National Park After Dark. My name is Danielle.
[02:08]
Cassie
I'm Cassie. Welcome.
[02:09]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It's almost Christmas.
[02:11]
Danielle
It is, yeah. And I'm so thankful that. Well, I don't know if I'm thankful if you're doing this story, because I know it's going to be a tough one, but your intro just perfectly aligns with a bone that I have to pick with our audience.
[02:26]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Ah, okay.
[02:27]
Danielle
And this rarely happens, but I'm upset, and I need to voice it. So you mentioned a gateway town, so. Which I'm guessing your story is going to center around today. Yes. And I was recently at a gateway town for my birthday, and I don't know what happened to me there. No one warned me that Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg, Tennessee, or are a completely different realm of existence. And there's where am I? Where am I? So my gripe really has to do with all of the people. There's so many people who love Great Smoky Mountains National Park. Adore it. I just can't say enough good things about it. And I'm sure that that's valid because the minimal experience I had in the park. I only had a few hours, but it was really pretty and it was awesome. And I know I went during probably the, quote unquote, ugliest time of year to experience that park. You know, I was there last week, but no one even a breath of, hey, just a warning. Pigeon Forge in Gatlinburg. If you go in that entrance, it's. There's a lot of weird shit around there, and I just need you to be warned. No one said anything about those towns. And I texted you immediately. I was like, I can't even describe where I am right now. If I had to put it into words, probably the mini golf capital of the world. No one said anything about that.
[03:55]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Like, that seems like a really big portion that should have been told, should have been noted. We've covered Great Smoky Mountain many times on the podcast.
[04:05]
Danielle
That's what I'm saying.
[04:06]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Even brought it up.
[04:07]
Danielle
No one said anything. Not even like, hey, girl. Hey, girly. Just. Just so I. You know, it feels like it might not be your thing.
[04:15]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
No one said, what other secrets are.
[04:17]
Cassie
You keeping from us?
[04:19]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah.
[04:19]
Danielle
Now I. The trust has been shattered a little bit. Not only. And it's not even like the mini golf thing. If it was just that, I would never say anything because I happen to know a lot of people who love mini golf, and that's fine. But everything was like. It was like the biggest tourist trap you could ever fall into, like, for miles. Everything was just like. Every building was, like, built to be this weird. Like, okay, perfect example. The whole reason I went there is because I wanted to see the Titanic museum. The museum is shaped like the ship. I thought it was so unique and cute and fun and, like, wow, this is so. It's never been done before. Yeah, well, apparently every single building in both of those towns are shaped to be what they're advertising.
[05:07]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Whatever the theme is inside.
[05:08]
Danielle
It's crazy. It's so crazy. I felt like I was in this, like, weird, wonky, like, Willy Wonka type amusement park. Yeah, it was. I. I feel unsettled a little bit.
[05:21]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I've never experienced it, so I can't bring my own opinion. And I also wasn't keeping anything from you because I didn't know I would have.
[05:29]
Danielle
We would have fought immediately, but, you know, enjoy your time. Maybe people who are all for Great Smoky Mountains national park are going into a different. Through a different entrance.
[05:42]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Or maybe they're not spending time there. Maybe they're just straight going into the park and experiencing the park.
[05:47]
Danielle
Yeah. Just kind of like busting right through. It just. It feels like two very different worlds that are Literally side by side, which makes it even more jarring, I feel like.
[05:59]
Cassie
So anyway, in retrospect, I'm not super.
[06:02]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Shocked just because it is the most visited national park that we have.
[06:07]
Cassie
So it makes sense that they would.
[06:08]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Have a huge resource for people to like, things for people to do in hotels and restaurants and things like that to accommodate all of these people who are visiting. But it does feel very. Not national park.
[06:23]
Danielle
Like, I hear you and I agree with you. If it was diverse in any way, like, everything is just kind of carbon copies of. Of each other for miles in, like, slightly different forms. Like, I get. You need lodging and food and entertainment, but it's all very centered around, like, it felt like Disney World in the mountains of Tennessee. And I was not prepared and nothing. Again, if you want to bring your family there, it's definitely, I will say, perfect for families, young families. Like, yeah, it's a kids paradise.
[06:58]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Kids paradise.
[06:58]
Danielle
That makes sense. But yeah, anyway, so I don't want to get too hung up on that. I just felt like I had to say something because I felt all out, a little betrayed, a little. I don't know, like, I'm just like, I would like to go back to that park, but in a different.
[07:14]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
No, maybe everyone has had the same experience when they go, but they're like, you know what? We're keeping it low. We're keeping it on the down low. Because I think everyone should be this shocked every time they go for the first time.
[07:26]
Danielle
Yeah. I'm not going to warn anyone.
[07:28]
Cassie
Maybe it's.
[07:29]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Maybe now you're in the club, maybe.
[07:32]
Danielle
Well, yeah, Next time someone tells you.
[07:34]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
They'Re going a Great Smoky Mountain, just be like, have a nice time.
[07:37]
Danielle
Enjoy. Oh, you're going through the Tennessee entrance.
[07:39]
Cassie
Perfect.
[07:40]
Danielle
Excellent.
[07:41]
Cassie
Have a nice time.
[07:42]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I've been there, too. You're going to love it.
[07:47]
Danielle
And I don't know, maybe I. I run the risk of. I kind of feel a little scared saying this also because kind of like the Taylor Swift army of, like, you don't talk bad about her girl. Swift.
[07:58]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, don't do that.
[07:59]
Danielle
You can't talk bad about Gatlinburg. What's wrong with you?
[08:03]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
You know, like, there's not.
[08:04]
Danielle
I don't know.
[08:05]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
They're not. They're proud following.
[08:08]
Danielle
They're proud folk down there. Okay. And I don't want to upset anybody.
[08:13]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I'm sure a lot of people make their living in that town.
[08:16]
Cassie
But.
[08:17]
Danielle
But anyway, yeah, the actual park itself, what I got to experience was quite lovely. The drive was nice. We went to the trail where Glenda Ann Bradley was mauled to death by black bear. Fun, but that was great.
[08:36]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
10 out of 10 recommend.
[08:38]
Danielle
Yeah. But anyway, so that's my roundabout, like, connection to a gateway town experience. Hopefully yours is better.
[08:48]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I've never been to this town personally, but from what I've read, it sounds like a cool, cool spot to be. So we are going to be going to Fville, West Virginia, which I think whenever I hear Fayetteville, I always think of North Carolina right away just because that's the military base whenever I hear Fayetteville, but it's West Virginia.
[09:07]
Cassie
Fayetteville, West Virginia. It is gateway town to New River Gorge national park, which of course is one of our newer parks. And we're going to be diving into.
[09:16]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Kind of a mysterious happening. It's a suspicious fire. Whether we think it was an accident, arson, kidnapping, murder, whatever. I'm gonna go deep into the story and then we can kind of talk at the end.
[09:29]
Cassie
But what you think might have happened.
[09:31]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Okay, so before we dive into the.
[09:34]
Cassie
Story, let's talk about the gateway town. Fayetteville, West Virginia has been named one of the coolest towns in America, a.
[09:42]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Title that feels unsurprising given that it's.
[09:45]
Cassie
The gateway town to one of the newest national parks we have. New River Gorge. With a population of roughly 2,800 people, Fayetteville is small, but packs a punch because of its location and because of its history. The town is made up of people from many different backgrounds, longtime Appalachian families.
[10:01]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Transplants drawn by mountains and rivers, all.
[10:04]
Cassie
Artists, guides and small business owners who have chosen to build their lives there. What defines Fayetteville more than anything is its relationship with the New River Gorge. The town sits right on the rim of this vast canyon, placing it quite literally at the doorstep of one of the most dramatic landscapes in the eastern United States. The New river, considered one of the oldest rivers in the world, cuts a deep path through the Appalachian plateau, carving sandstone cliffs and forested slopes that that are some of the oldest in America. For obvious reasons, Fayetteville is synonymous with outdoor recreation. The surrounding area offers some of the nation's best hiking trails and world class rock climbing routes. Climbers travel from across the country to test themselves on the gorgeous, sheer sandstone walls. The New and Golly rivers are legendary in the whitewater community, known for powerful rapids that range from approachable to extreme. Rafters and kayakers pass through Fayetteville, turning the town into a seasonal hub of river culture. I remember actually when I worked with.
[11:06]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
A bunch of rafting rafting guides and whitewater kayakers. They actually went up.
[11:10]
Cassie
They do. I don't know if it's yearly. I believe it is, but they have something called Gauley Fest, where White river kayakers go up for a long weekend.
[11:19]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And they run the river and party, listen to music.
[11:22]
Cassie
And it's a whole.
[11:23]
Danielle
That's cool.
[11:24]
Cassie
It's a whole vibe. But that's not the only outdoor sport that gets their spotlight here every October. And this is something I think we.
[11:31]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Should go to sometime. I think we've said this before, but.
[11:34]
Cassie
Fayetteville becomes the focus of national attention during Bridge Day on the third Saturday of the month, the New River Gorge Bridge is closed to traffic and opened to BASE jumpers from around the world.
[11:45]
Danielle
I feel like you've talked about this before. Am I hallucinating?
[11:49]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I think I did in a past New River Gorge episode, because we've been here.
[11:52]
Danielle
Wait. Oh, you know what? It's the. The one I think I'm recalling, which I randomly thought of the other day when I was thinking of just some of the bonus episodes and topics we've done. Didn't you do one about the woman who faked her own death?
[12:07]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah.
[12:08]
Danielle
Was that here?
[12:09]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
New River Gorge?
[12:10]
Cassie
New River Gorge, Yeah.
[12:11]
Danielle
I think that's.
[12:12]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
That might have been where I talked about it.
[12:14]
Cassie
Yeah.
[12:15]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And that's an outsider's only story, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That one was interesting. If you're not on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. I covered a story in New River Gorge about this woman who faked her death.
[12:27]
Cassie
She faked falling off a cliff in New River Gorge, and she was caught.
[12:32]
Danielle
And she did it so badly.
[12:34]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
She did it so badly. You should listen to the episode.
[12:37]
Cassie
It's so funny.
[12:37]
Danielle
It's funny, actually.
[12:38]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
She gets caught in, like, spoiler alert, but she gets caught hiding in her closet. Like, it's. It's crazy. This whole story is wild.
[12:46]
Danielle
Yeah.
[12:47]
Cassie
But. Yeah, yeah.
[12:48]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And I think we did talk about that then, but I was rereading this.
[12:52]
Cassie
I was like, oh, this sounds like such a fun.
[12:54]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It just seems like such a cool vibe here. And I think going for BASE jumping the Bridge Day, seeing BASE jumpers would be really cool.
[13:00]
Danielle
It's one of my states. I still have to go. I know. You've tackled all 50 states now as of 2025. Congratulations.
[13:06]
Cassie
Thank you.
[13:08]
Danielle
But West Virginia is still one of the states I have to check off the list.
[13:12]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
October 2026, here we come.
[13:16]
Danielle
Yep. Our schedule's free as of right now.
[13:18]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For the second what is we're going to Bridge Day? Yeah, we're going to Bridge Day. Be there. But to give you a little bit more context of Bridge Day, one by one, these base jumpers step off the.
[13:34]
Cassie
Bridge and drop nearly 900ft towards the river below. While thousands of spectators gather along the gorge rim.
[13:42]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
The town is filled with vendors, artisans, music, food and crowds drawn by a.
[13:47]
Cassie
Spectacle that exists nowhere else in the whole country. Just minutes from town, New River Gorge national park and Preserve stretches across more than 70, 000 acres of protected land. The park offers countless scenic overlooks and opportunities for hiking, biking, whitewater rafting and climbing. Towering above it all is of course, the New River Gorge Bridge, which when it opened in 1977 was one of the longest single span arch bridges in the whole world. For visitors willing to brave the height, the Bridgewalk provides a guided catwalk tour beneath the bridge offering a straight down view into the gorge below.
[14:22]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I would personally love to do that. I would totally walk across that bridge.
[14:26]
Cassie
And it looks like it's a pretty safe.
[14:29]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It's a walkway.
[14:30]
Danielle
Yeah, that's what they all say.
[14:31]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, that's true. That is what they all say.
[14:37]
Cassie
But Fayetteville's identity was not always defined.
[14:40]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
By adventure tourism or national park signage.
[14:43]
Cassie
Its history reaches much farther back. I really like when my money tools actually match how I spend my day to day. I use my debit card constantly, so I wanted to do more than just pull money out of my account. With Cash App, it actually feels like my everyday spending works in my favor instead of against me. Cash App just released a new status program for the way people actually spend. Called Cash App Green. It unlocks new ways for you to pay, get rewarded, and easily grow or manage your money on your terms. Now, when you spend at least $500 a month with a Cash App card or Cash App Pay, you earn green status, which unlocks benefits like up to $200 of free overdraft coverage, high borrow limits and custom personalized cashback offers Every Friday at places that you love to shop. Turn everyday spending into status with Cash App Green. Download Cash App today or visit Cash App New to learn more about this and other great features. Launching now for a limited time, new Cash App Customers can earn $10 if they use the code CASH APP10 in their profile at signup and send $5 to a friend within 14 days. Terms apply. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's Bank Partners. Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank Member FDIC Cash App Green overdraft coverage. Borrow cashback offers and promotions provided by Cash App, a Block Inc. Brand. Visit Cash App Legal podcast for full disclosures. Originally known as Vandalia, the town was renamed Fayetteville in 1873. It was named for Marquis de Lafayette, whose statue still stands on the lawn of the Fayette County Courthouse. During the Civil War, Fayetteville's strategic position made it a contested place held by both Union and Confederate forces at different points. The town's historic district today includes roughly 75 preserved homes, buildings and sites tied to that era. Today, the town hosts historic walking tours to learn all about their layered history.
[16:52]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Including ghost walking tours, which I thought was a fun.
[16:56]
Danielle
I just did one in Knoxville.
[16:58]
Cassie
Did you. How was it?
[16:59]
Danielle
It was good. We. So I was with Jeff and he was a very good sport because it was pretty cold and we were the only people on the tour. So it was very one on one history talk for like. Yeah, and of course, I did the 90 minute one. I did the extended. So for 90 minutes. It was a lot of direct conversation about history. And similarly, I think to what you're explaining, it's Knoxville is very. A lot of the history they were talking about was Civil War based. So it was. Yeah, it was light ghost, I think, like lightly paranormal, more historic based. So I thought it was great. I had a great time.
[17:47]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
We had a great time.
[17:48]
Danielle
Both of us loved it.
[17:52]
Matt Rogers
For sure.
[17:54]
Danielle
Yeah.
[17:55]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So basically there's a lot going on here with outdoor tourism and then historic tours and a lot of history here.
[18:01]
Cassie
It is within this layered place, shaped by ancient rivers, hard history, and the pull of wild landscapes, that one of West Virginia's most enduring and unsettling mysteries unfolded. And of course, because it's Christmas this.
[18:14]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Week, I had to tell a really dark Christmas story.
[18:17]
Cassie
So.
[18:18]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So on Christmas Eve in 1945, long.
[18:21]
Cassie
Before Fayetteville was known as a gateway town to a national park, five children disappeared here under very odd and suspicious circumstances. George and Jenny Sauter gathered at home with nine of their 10 children to celebrate the holiday. That poor woman. Ten children.
[18:38]
Danielle
It's a lot.
[18:40]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
That is a lot. I think there's something about fun. There's something fun about big families, though. And in this time, people had a lot more children.
[18:46]
Danielle
Yeah, I just. Every time I think of a big number of children, I translate that into how many years of that woman's life that she was either pregnant, recovering from childbirth, breastfeeding, etc.
[19:02]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, I always.
[19:03]
Danielle
Over a decade.
[19:04]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
The mom. I'm like, you are a superhuman.
[19:07]
Danielle
Hero.
[19:07]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Hero.
[19:08]
Danielle
Amazing.
[19:08]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
To be able to do that? Yeah, yeah, for sure. So all nine of their 10 children were home for the holiday. One son was not in the house that night.
[19:16]
Cassie
But the rest of the family filled the two story wood frame home with the familiar sounds of Christmas. Presents were open, new toys were passed from hand to hand. The house felt warm, busy and alive. As the night wore on, five of the solder children asked their parents for permission to stay up a little longer. Maurice who was 14, along with Martha 12, Lewis who was 9, Jenny who was 8 and 5 year old Betty, wanted to keep playing with their Christmas toys. After the rest of the family went to bed, they promised they would finish their chores before going to sleep. So George and Jenny agreed, unaware that the decision would haunt them for the rest of their lives. Sometime shortly after midnight, Jenny Sauter was awoken by their house phone ringing. When she answered, a woman on the other end asked to speak to someone Jenny did not recognize. Jenny told her that she had the wrong number. Then the caller laughed and Jenny could hear the sounds of glasses clinking and voices in the background before the line went dead. Jenny assumed it was a prank call and thought little of it. Before returning to bed, Jenny noticed that the lights inside the house were still on. The curtains were open and the front door was unlocked. She saw Marion asleep on the living room sofa, which made her assume the rest of the children had gone to their rooms to go to sleep. Believing everyone was safely inside the house, Jenny turned off the lights. She passed, closed the curtains, locked the door for the night and returned to her bedroom. Not long after, Jenny was awoken again, this time by sharp loud bang on the roof, following by a rolling sound. She got up, looked outside and saw nothing out of the ordinary. So she returned to bed. Around 1:30am she was awoken for a third time now by the smell of smoke coming into their room. When Jenny opened the bedroom door she saw flames already spreading through the house. She screamed for George and began calling for the children to get out. Smoke thickened quickly and the fire moved fast. Two of their sons managed to escape through an upstairs window with the flames so close that they singed their hair as they fled. Their daughter Marion made it outside carrying the baby Sylvia, whose crib had been in her parents bedroom. George and Jenny escaped the house and immediately realized the downstairs rooms, including the living room, dining room, kitchen, office and the bedroom they shared, were engulfed in flames. But five of their children were still missing. Maurice, Martha, Lewis, Jenny and Betty, who they assumed were trapped on the second floor. George raced to reach them through the upstairs windows. When he went to grab the ladder he always kept propped up against the house and had seen the previous day, he found it was mysteriously missing. Thinking quickly, he tried to start one of his two coal trucks, planning to drive it up to the house and climb onto the roof. But neither vehicle would start, despite having worked perfectly the day before. In a desperate attempt to put out the fire, he tried to scoop water from a rain barrel only to find it frozen solid inside the house. The smoke and fire churned through the stairwell, cutting off the access to the second floor where George believed his children were trapped. He broke a window and attempt to re enter the house, slicing a deep gash in his arm. Blood slicked his skin. But in a frantic attempt to save his children, he barely noticed. He could see nothing through the smoke and the heat forced him back out of the house. Marion ran to a neighbor's house to call the fire department, but there was no operator response. Another neighbor saw the blaze and tried calling from a nearby tavern, again without success. Finally, a neighbor drove into town and tracked down Fire Chief F.J. morris, who initiated Fayetteville's fire alert system, which was basically a phone cascade in which one.
[22:52]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Fire volunteer firefighter would call another one to alert them.
[22:56]
Cassie
Because at this time there was only.
[22:58]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Volunteer fire fire departments.
[23:00]
Cassie
It wasn't like call 911 and you'll reach everyone.
[23:03]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It was like kind of a game.
[23:05]
Cassie
Of telephone where you would slowly reach everybody.
[23:07]
Danielle
And this is the 1950s, 1945. Okay.
[23:12]
Cassie
Although the fire department was only 2 1/2 miles away, the crew did not arrive until around 8am, nearly 7 hours after the fire had broken out.
[23:22]
Danielle
7 hours?
[23:23]
Cassie
7 hours was the response time.
[23:25]
Danielle
Okay.
[23:26]
Cassie
By then the solder home had been reduced to mostly just a smoking pile of ash with structure pieces of the house here and there back in 1945.
[23:36]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I think it's important to mention again.
[23:37]
Cassie
That firefighting in Fayetteville was entirely volunteer based with little training and very limited equipment. So in short, there was simply not the resources or coordination that modern departments today rely on. So. So the seven hour response time was not entirely unheard of. On Christmas Day, George and Jenny assumed that five of their children were dead. A brief search of the property turned up no human remains. But Fire Chief Morris suggested that the fire had been hot enough to completely cremate their bodies.
[24:07]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
However, I do want to note that.
[24:09]
Cassie
A fire needs to reach 1400-1800 degrees Fahrenheit, or 760 degrees Celsius to 982 degrees Celsius to cremate a body and remain at that temperature for several hours. This intense heat, typically from natural gas or propane, is far hotter and more controlled than a typical house fire, which usually burns around 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit.
[24:34]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So to assume that right off the bat, it's. It's pretty unlikely that especially for five individuals, five children.
[24:42]
Cassie
Yeah.
[24:43]
Danielle
And I mean, we kind of learned a little bit about that when I covered Graham Parsons story and Joshua Tree because his friends attempted to cremate him by lighting him on fire. And as did not help, as friends would. I hope you would do for me. But yeah, no.
[24:59]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So if you wanted to be cremated that way, I would.
[25:02]
Danielle
Thank you. But, yeah, no, I immediately find that difficult to believe, especially for five individuals who were assuming. Even at this point. I know you kind of preface this saying that it's mysterious, so there's got to be other elements in here going on. But even if we were just taking it at face value, like they. I'm assuming they're in different parts of the house or in different positions or in different places, that they're not all in the same exact conditions where this is going to be possible, that they're all going to be cremated to. And reduced to ash or cremains, I should say.
[25:40]
Cassie
Yeah, with nothing.
[25:41]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
With.
[25:41]
Cassie
No.
[25:42]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I mean, to cremate bones is, like I just mentioned, it takes a.
[25:47]
Cassie
It's a long process.
[25:48]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And nothing I think is weird, but.
[25:51]
Cassie
We'Ll get into that more. A state police inspector attributed the fire to faulty wiring, and the coroner's office issued five death certificates just before the new year, despite finding no evidence of their bodies, listing the cause as fire or suffocation. Against the advice of the fire marshal, George covered the basement with five feet of dirt and planted four flowers over the site, intending to preserve the space as a memorial for his children. But as the days passed, doubt began to take root. Marian would later recall that during the fire, she never once saw her siblings.
[26:26]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
At the window, which she thought, you.
[26:28]
Cassie
Know, if they were trying to escape.
[26:30]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Wouldn'T we have seen them try?
[26:32]
Cassie
Wouldn't we have seen their faces in the window or trying to open the window? Or, like, why did we never see any evidence of them? She also never smelled burning flesh, something people often say is an unmistakable smell. The family struggled to understand how five children could perish in a fire and leave no trace behind, especially when identifiable remains of household objects were still found in the rubble. Slowly, the solders began stitching together moments that now, in retrospect felt unsettling. Months before the fire, a stranger appeared at the solder home asking George for hauling work, hoping to be hired for trucking jobs hauling dirt, coal or freight through George's business. It wasn't uncommon for people to stop by looking for work, so at the time, George didn't question it. But now some of his behavior felt odd. He wandered to the back of the house, pointed at the fuse boxes, and casually remarked that they would cause a fire someday, despite the wire having been recently inspected and approved by the local power company. Around the same time, a life insurance salesman became angry when George declined a policy, warning him that his house would go up in smoke and his children would be destroyed as punishment for his outspoken criticism of Italy's dictator Benito Mussolini. So now let's get into a little bit of George's history. Ever feel like your money just disappears each month? It's easier than ever to overspend subscriptions, piling up impulse buys after seeing an ad on your phone or ordering takeout a few too many times. I realized this was happening to me because I personally love doing free trials to watch movies, and I had a bunch of subscriptions I didn't even know.
[28:18]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Were still active because I forgot to cancel them.
[28:21]
Cassie
Rocket Money helps you rein it in by showing you exactly where your money is going so you can make better decisions and keep your money in your pocket. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. It shows you all the expenses in one place, including subscriptions you forgot you.
[28:41]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Were paying for like I have.
[28:42]
Cassie
And if you see one or more you no longer want, Rocket Money will help you cancel it. Their dashboard lays out your full financial picture, including bill due dates and pay dates, in a way that's easy to understand. You can even create custom budgets based.
[28:55]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
On your past spending.
[28:56]
Cassie
Rocket Money will also try to negotiate lower bills for you. The app scans your bills to find opportunities to save and then goes to work getting you better deals. They'll even talk to customer service so you don't have to. Rocket Money has saved users over two and a half billion dollars, including over $880 million in canceled subscriptions alone. Their 10 million members saved save up to $740 a year when they used all the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com NPAD today, that's RocketMoney.com NPAD RocketMoney.com NPAD. George Sauter was born in Italy and immigrated to the United States in 1908 at just 313 years old. He found work on the Pennsylvania railroads, hauling water and supplies to laborers, and after several years moved south to West Virginia. Intelligent and driven, George worked first as a driver before launching his own trucking and hauling business, moving dirt for construction projects and later hauling freight and coal. By the 1940s, the solders were considered a stable middle class family. Well known in Fayette County, George was also outspoken about politics, particularly his deep opposition to Benito Mussolini, the fascist dictator who ruled Italy for more than two decades and led the country into World War II alongside Nazi Germany. In immigrant communities like Fayetteville's, opinions about Mussolini often ran hot and criticism could be taken personally because of that. The salesman's angry response was off putting, but hadn't felt overly concerning at the time. It was kind of a regular.
[30:42]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
He's like, I know I put my, my voice out here. I know I, I voice my political views.
[30:47]
Cassie
It's not, it's not uncommon for someone to get pissed about it.
[30:51]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So it's just kind of a thought. It's like, okay, him and I don't get along.
[30:55]
Cassie
Other family members recalled seeing a man sitting in a parked car near the house shortly before Christmas, watching the younger children as they came home. A telephone repairman later told the solders that their phone line appeared to have been cut, not burned. If the fire had been electrical, George reasoned, the power should have failed and the lights should have gone out. Instead, while the fire was ablaze, some of the house's lights had remained on during the whole period.
[31:22]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So he thought, you know, if this.
[31:23]
Cassie
Was an electrical thing, wouldn't. Why were the upstairs lights on? Why were things on during this fire?
[31:30]
Danielle
Right. And the telephone wire was cut. Yeah. And they found that after.
[31:35]
Cassie
It's like.
[31:36]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So they couldn't call.
[31:37]
Danielle
Right.
[31:37]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Which was also. I mean, it from.
[31:42]
Cassie
And the ladder's gone and the car's not working.
[31:44]
Danielle
Both cars also.
[31:46]
Cassie
Both cars.
[31:46]
Danielle
And it's not some bizarre cold snap where everything is Dean.
[31:52]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
No. It's just a typical winter in West Virginia.
[31:55]
Danielle
Yeah.
[31:55]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah.
[31:56]
Danielle
Okay.
[31:57]
Cassie
Within months, George and Jenny began to believe the unthinkable. Perhaps their children had not died in the fire after all. Perhaps they had been kidnapped. As the days following the fire stretched into weeks, the Sauder family found themselves caught between official explanations and their own growing sense that something was deeply wrong. Jenny could not reconcile the official explanation with what she knew to be true. She knew how much of the house had remained identifiable afterwards. Household appliances, metal objects, and fragments of furniture Were still visible in the debris. If those things had survived, how could five children have vanished without a trace? And she wanted to answer this question on her own. So she kind of did her own morbid experiment. She began burning animal bones and controlled fires behind the house. She would use chicken bones, pork chop bones, beef joints, and each time, she was left with charred but recognizable remains. Later, an employee at a crematorium told her that even after two hours at temperatures exceeding 2,000 degrees, Bones still remained.
[33:04]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And with the solder family home, they couldn't. They never measured the amount of heat. But again, with a house fire, it's.
[33:11]
Cassie
Not going to exceed 2,000 degrees. And even though it was burning throughout the night, the house wouldn't have burning. Been burning that hot.
[33:18]
Danielle
Right.
[33:18]
Cassie
Throughout every portion of the house. Exactly.
[33:23]
Danielle
Yeah. And not to be super morbid here, but as someone who has handled cremains of people, there are. It's not all just nice cremaine, like, fine dust. Like, there are fragments of bone sometimes in there, and that's in a controlled, like, you know what I mean? It's just. I don't know that I feel like we can throw away right away. And I feel like that's now accepted, maybe when people reflect on this case with retrospect and more knowledge. And even the mom, right away, she's like, this is not.
[34:02]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It's like something's wrong.
[34:03]
Danielle
Yeah.
[34:03]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And I think this is why this story.
[34:05]
Cassie
It's part of why this story has remained such a mystery. So, of course, after doing all these experiments and getting all this knowledge, the doubts for this only deepened. And then reports of sightings began to trickle in, at first tentative, then persistent. A woman claimed she had seen the missing children Peering from a passing car While the fire was still in progress. Another woman, who operated a tourist stop between Fayetteville and Charleston, roughly 50 miles away, said she saw the children the following morning and served them breakfast. She recalled that a car with Florida license plates was parked outside.
[34:42]
Danielle
All five together.
[34:44]
Cassie
Yes. Okay. A woman working at a hotel in Charleston later came forward after seeing the photos of the missing children in a newspaper. She told authorities she had seen four of the five children Roughly a week after the fire. According to her statement, the children were traveling with two men and two women, all of whom appeared to be of Italian descent. While she tried to speak to the children, the adults became hostile to speaking. Speaking rapidly in Italian and refusing to let her interact with them, she said the group stayed only one night and left early the next morning. And that the interaction left her with a strong sense of unease. George and Jenny did not know what to make of these reports, but they could not ignore them. And more witnesses continued to come forward. One came forward claiming he had seen a man at the scene of the fire removing a block and tackle, a device commonly used for pulling car engines. George wondered if this explained why his truck, which had worked perfectly fine the day before, would not start when he tries tried to use either of them to rescue his children. The man was later arrested and pleaded guilty to stealing the block and tackle, though he denied any involvement in the fire itself.
[35:59]
Danielle
Okay, I need clarification on this. Just because I don't understand the workings of automobiles. Really? Why did I just call them automobiles? Cars.
[36:12]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, they were automobiles in the 1940s.
[36:15]
Danielle
That's true. Yes. So both of their vehicles had something removed from them.
[36:23]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah. And someone saw this guy doing it.
[36:27]
Cassie
And he later was arrested.
[36:29]
Danielle
Okay. My follow up question is, was it just their two vehicles or was it was this guy just taking this stuff from everybody's cars? And they.
[36:38]
Cassie
It seems like from this instance, from what I could find, it was just there.
[36:44]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It was just their house that he was prosecuted for.
[36:47]
Danielle
Okay, because what was the thing? I mean, I think it's still very much an issue, but that people are going around taking from people's cars.
[36:55]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Oh, not their. Their alternator.
[36:59]
Cassie
Not their alternate.
[37:00]
Danielle
Yes.
[37:01]
Cassie
Is it their altar?
[37:02]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
No.
[37:02]
Danielle
No.
[37:03]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, there's something.
[37:05]
Danielle
There's something out here.
[37:08]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
They're worth a lot of money.
[37:09]
Danielle
Yes. And your car doesn't run without it. I don't think.
[37:13]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah. If we knew what that thing was.
[37:17]
Danielle
I feel like. You know what I'm saying. So that's all that matters.
[37:20]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I do. It'll come to me.
[37:23]
Danielle
So I get also my time. It's funny because my stepdad, Robert, he'll. I remember vividly, especially when I lived in Colorado. He. It was. That's when we were on high alert for it. And he's like, you gotta be on the lookout. I'm like, okay, first of all, I don't even know what they're after. Second of all, what am I to do? I have to park my car and I can't just stand guard. Yeah. What am I.
[37:46]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
If they're taking it, they're taking it.
[37:48]
Danielle
Because it's not inside. You can access it from just underneath. Underneath. I'm like, what am I supposed to do? And now I'm worried, but I don't know how to protect my car. From somebody taking this thing, which I feel hasn't been taken.
[38:03]
Cassie
What, the fault. Yeah.
[38:05]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
We gotta know. Hold on.
[38:08]
Danielle
It's not the alternator.
[38:09]
Cassie
No.
[38:10]
Danielle
Which I also don't know what that is, but I know the word is wrong.
[38:15]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Catalytic converters. Oh, that's what it is. Whatever. Those things are valuable.
[38:22]
Danielle
They convert things to other things.
[38:28]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Really important.
[38:29]
Danielle
They're super important.
[38:30]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Money. But.
[38:31]
Danielle
Yeah. So anyway, going back to this guy, you know, like, if he was on the hunt for Cadillac converters and he was just taking them from everybody's car or whatever. This block and turn. What?
[38:42]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, it's a. Removing a block and tackle, which. I don't know, 1945. I don't know. Cars are. I don't really know what that is, but.
[38:49]
Danielle
But you know what I'm saying? Like, if he was. Yeah, but it's interesting. If he was just.
[38:55]
Cassie
Do we believe in coincidences?
[38:57]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I mean, all of this happened that same night and someone saw them removing it, like around the same time of the.
[39:03]
Danielle
Yeah.
[39:04]
Cassie
Fire.
[39:05]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Who robs a house that's on fire?
[39:08]
Danielle
I don't know. I think a lot of people, actually.
[39:11]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
But if you see a house on fire, you're going to go steal from their car.
[39:15]
Danielle
Not me personally, but I feel like it's. I mean, when cities are looted and things are on fire and all that. I mean, people are. Go crazy for stealing stuff.
[39:23]
Cassie
That's different, though.
[39:24]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
This is just someone's neighborhood and their home is on fire.
[39:27]
Danielle
True.
[39:28]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And your first thought is not to.
[39:30]
Danielle
Gotta get that tackle box or whatever. I know. That's for fishing. Okay. Anyway.
[39:39]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Well, he denied any involvement in the fire itself, But I think it.
[39:44]
Cassie
It could or could not be sketchy.
[39:45]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It could totally be a coincidence if.
[39:46]
Cassie
We believed in those.
[39:48]
Danielle
Well, just mounted with everything else. It feels not right. Yeah.
[39:52]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah.
[39:53]
Cassie
Officially, investigators maintained that the fire began downstairs near the office where the telephone and wiring were located and quickly spread through the first floor before racing up the stairwell. But for the solders, another detail never fit cleanly into that explanation. On the night of the fire, Jenny had been awakened by a sharp thud on the roof, followed by the sound of something rolling across it. Long before she smelled smoke or soft flames. Days later, when Sylvia found a small, hard rubber object in the yard, Jenny immediately thought back to that sound. George became convinced that the object could have been related to a wartime. A wartime device, which was something.
[40:37]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It's a wartime incend. I meant to look up the pronunciation.
[40:41]
Danielle
Incinerator. Incendiary.
[40:43]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Incendiary? Is that how you say it?
[40:46]
Danielle
I'VE heard that word before. Like a grenade, kind of. Or like a fire thrower.
[40:51]
Cassie
Wartime incendiary device.
[40:53]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, it's basically like a. It's an explosive that was used in wars.
[40:59]
Cassie
And he thought that this could be.
[41:02]
Danielle
Sorry.
[41:03]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
We know a lot of details about things.
[41:10]
Danielle
I feel. Yeah, I don't know if it's like we haven't recorded in a week, so I just feel silly, but. And it's not funny. It's just you're saying you're throwing a lot of things at me that I have to put.
[41:25]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Try to understand what they are.
[41:26]
Danielle
Yes.
[41:27]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah.
[41:28]
Danielle
I think of it as a grenade that just. I don't know.
[41:32]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Similar, I guess.
[41:33]
Cassie
Yeah.
[41:34]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It's just some type of explosive.
[41:35]
Danielle
It's a wartime incendiary, obviously.
[41:38]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Obviously. And that's what he thinks it is. Especially when they find this rubber, this weird rubber thing that she thinks could have been what hit the roof. Authorities never accepted this theory, but to.
[41:50]
Cassie
The Solders, it became another reason to question whether the blaze had truly been accidental. And the list of oddities continued to grow. In 1947, George and Jenny wrote directly to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, hoping federal involvement might bring clarity. The response came from FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover himself. While Hoover expressed sympathy, he explained that the case appeared to be a local matter and fell outside the Bureau's jurisdiction. FBI agents offered assistance only if local authorities requested it, and Fville police and fire officials declined. The Sodders were left once again on their own. They next hired a private investigator named C.C. tinsley, whose findings only deepened their mistrust of the official story. Tinsley discovered that the insurance salesman who had threatened George months before the fire was a member of the coroner's jury that ruled the deaths of accidental. The man had once worked for George and was a co signer on the family's home insurance policy, which he had increased shortly before the fire without the solder's knowledge or approval.
[42:59]
Danielle
Oh, there it is.
[43:01]
Cassie
Tinsley also learned troubling information about Fire Chief Morris. Though Morris publicly claimed no remains had been found, he reportedly told others he had discovered a human organ in the ashes. According to the story, he placed it in a dynamite box and buried it at the site. When the Solders dug up the box and took it to a local funeral director, the supposed organ was examined and identified as beef liver, untouched by the fire.
[43:30]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So this fire chief just like buried this. Weird on there to be like, yeah, look, there's proof of a. A kid or like some.
[43:38]
Cassie
I don't know.
[43:39]
Danielle
Okay, a few. No no.
[43:42]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Why would it be in a dynamite box?
[43:44]
Danielle
First of all, why do you have beef liver on hand and a dynamite box? Those two things feel weird to just have immediately. But also, it just goes against their official story that there are. There's no remains at all. Because they were. What, your liver is going to survive, but your femur bone isn't? That's so crazy. Yeah.
[44:05]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It's like, what are you trying to do here? It doesn't make sense.
[44:08]
Cassie
Rumors followed that Morris had admitted to others that the liver had not come.
[44:11]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
From the fire at all, and.
[44:13]
Cassie
But he had buried it deliberately in an attempt to placate the family and bring the investigation to an end.
[44:19]
Danielle
Okay, what do you think they're stupid? Like, what? That's so insulting to their intelligence.
[44:23]
Cassie
It's like, to a grieving family. These are childs. These are children.
[44:28]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
These are their children.
[44:29]
Danielle
Yeah.
[44:29]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
They're talking about.
[44:31]
Danielle
It's just so. Yeah, it's an insult to their intelligence. It's. It doesn't make any sense at all. I don't understand that line of thinking, but at all.
[44:41]
Cassie
So, of course, by this point, George and Jenny no longer trusted any official explanation or the people in charge. They wondered if the fire had been an act of arson meant to cover a kidnapping, possibly connected to organized crime or retaliation for George's outspoken criticism of Mussolini.
[44:57]
Danielle
So this is all going back to Mussolini?
[45:00]
Cassie
They're thinking. Potentially. But the other thing is, they're thinking.
[45:03]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
That maybe it could have been part of a human trafficking ring that had been watching their children because someone had.
[45:10]
Cassie
Seen a man watching their house and watching their children come home from school.
[45:14]
Danielle
Right.
[45:15]
Cassie
So that was another explanation.
[45:17]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
But they're kind of just pulling at straws here. They're like, we don't have any enemies.
[45:21]
Cassie
The only. The only enemies we do have are our political beliefs against Mussolini. Right now, who people are.
[45:30]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It is a really hot topic, and.
[45:31]
Cassie
People do feel really strongly about it. And of course, they were receiving threats. So that's kind of the only bridge they have, except for maybe possibly a human trafficking ring that they were unaware of.
[45:44]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And they never claimed to. Like, they knew what was happening.
[45:48]
Cassie
They were just trying to figure it out.
[45:51]
Danielle
Right.
[45:55]
Bowen Yang
This is Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers.
[45:57]
Matt Rogers
From Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.
[46:01]
Bowen Yang
JBL wireless earbuds are for those who are the first to try something unique.
[46:05]
Matt Rogers
The first wireless earbuds on the market with a touchscreen case which allows you to control your audio without reaching for your phone. They also have a touchscreen smart charging case for one Touch Control I love.
[46:16]
Bowen Yang
Being able to touch my buds and control the volume with a built in.
[46:19]
Matt Rogers
Wireless transmitter that lets you plug and play with any device you want. JBL Wireless Earbuds connects you to all your favorite music, movies and games.
[46:28]
Bowen Yang
The wireless transmitter also allows for JBL superior spatial sound that takes any audio and turns it into a 360 immersive experience.
[46:36]
Matt Rogers
They've got a next gen smart charging case for a seamless listening experience. Leave your phone in your pocket. The smart charging case has all the features you need to fully control and customize your listening experience experience and the earbud settings in multiple languages right from the case.
[46:50]
Bowen Yang
Use the smart charging case to see what song is playing or who's calling you or personalize the tactile screen with your favorite photo.
[46:56]
Matt Rogers
Check the dynamic lock screen to get info on battery life, status, time, messages.
[47:01]
Bowen Yang
Etc JBL Wireless Earbuds Grab a pair@jbl.com.
[47:05]
Rob Gronkowski
This is Rob Gronkowski from Dudes on Dudes with Gronk and Jules Sunday mornings are sacred. I've got my game day routine, coffee jersey laid out and my lucky playlist. But the real game changer New Morning Uncrustables Sandwiches.
[47:23]
Jules
I've always loved uncrustable sandwiches and now I'm all about the new flavors with 12 grams of protein. Bright eyed Berry or up an Apple? Bright Eyed Berries got that flashy finesse vibe like your favorite slot receiver.
[47:40]
Rob Gronkowski
Up an apple. Tough and reliable like a do it.
[47:44]
Jules
All tight end and players love them. Did you know teams crush over 80, 000 uncrustable sandwiches a year? They know it's good.
[47:52]
Rob Gronkowski
It's a snack that can go with you anywhere from the couch to the tailgate or even in the locker room. Soft bread, Yummy fillings. Protein packed. Once it's part of your ritual, you.
[48:06]
Jules
Don'T skip it easy enough for Gronk to grab straight from the freezer.
[48:10]
Rob Gronkowski
Your new Sunday kickoff ritual starts here with the new morning Uncrustable sandwiches packed with 12 grams of protein.
[48:23]
Cassie
Over the years, leads continued to surface. George once saw a newspaper photograph of school children in New York City and became convinced one of them was his daughter, Betty. He traveled to Manhattan in search of her, only to be turned away by the child's parents who refused to speak with him. In August of 1949, nearly four years after the fire, the Sodders organized a new excavation of the site of their former home. This time they brought in a pathologist from Washington, D.C. Dr. Oscar B. Hunter. The search uncovered Damaged coins, a partially burned dictionary, and several small shards of bone, including four vertebrae. Hunter sent the bones to the Smithsonian Institution for analysis. The report concluded that the bones belonged to a single individual whose skeletal development suggested an age between 16 and 17, with a possible upper limit of 22. This was older than Maurice, the eldest missing solder child, who had been 14 at the time of the fire.
[49:25]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And get this.
[49:27]
Cassie
The report also noted that. That the bones showed no sign of exposure to fire.
[49:33]
Danielle
What in the world? Okay. The age determination, I would have accepted as. I mean, it's a range, right? Like a couple years off.
[49:43]
Cassie
Yeah.
[49:44]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
You know, like he could have gone.
[49:45]
Cassie
Through puberty earlier than normal.
[49:47]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
You know, like, it could.
[49:49]
Danielle
And it's not an exact science. Like, you know, like Mason. Yeah. If this. If they were like, hey, yeah, this is the vertebrae of somebody who. Showing significant signs of either disease or age. That's clearly not matching.
[50:03]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Like, there are upwards of 70. Right.
[50:07]
Danielle
But the fire thing is wild.
[50:09]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah. So later, other people theorized that when.
[50:13]
Cassie
He brought in a bunch of beef liver. When he brought.
[50:17]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Not beef liver. When George brought in all of the dirt to make the garden memorial for.
[50:24]
Cassie
His children over the base, the remains of the basement there.
[50:27]
Danielle
Yeah.
[50:28]
Cassie
They think that maybe the dirt he brought in had the remains of someone in it.
[50:32]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And that's where these bones are found. That's why they found these bones is like the. The theory for that.
[50:38]
Cassie
Because there was no sign of.
[50:39]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
That they were affected by fire.
[50:41]
Danielle
That makes sense to me. But where did he get the dirt? Should we look into that? That feels like another thing that we should pursue.
[50:48]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
They were busy.
[50:50]
Danielle
They're like, I. I mean, that feels like that. I hope they did some sort of follow up on that because.
[50:56]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, I'm not sure.
[50:57]
Danielle
Now, that is indicating another young person who.
[51:02]
Cassie
This is also the 40s, too.
[51:04]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So, like, who knows where he got.
[51:06]
Cassie
Yes.
[51:06]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
You know, like, who knows? Who knows what's going on here?
[51:10]
Danielle
Okay. I mean, all right, Yeah, I guess.
[51:13]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I'll let that go. But sketchy for sure.
[51:15]
Cassie
The findings prompted hearings at the West Virginia State Capitol in Charleston. Afterwards, Governor Okie L. Patterson and State Police Superintendent W.E. burchette told the Solders that their search was hopeless and declared the case closed.
[51:29]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So he brought it back to their attention, was like, hey, look at that.
[51:32]
Cassie
There's still nothing.
[51:33]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I've had other people come in and.
[51:35]
Cassie
They'Re like, no, this case is closed. Your kids died here. End of story. It seems like they were just brushing them off from every. Every angle. But the Sodders Refused to accept that verdict. They erected a large billboard along Route 16 near Fayetteville displaying photographs of the missing children and offering a. A reward for information leading to their recovery. Flyers were distributed. The reward was raised from 5,000 to $10,000. And tips poured in from across the country. And this wasn't just a small billboard. This was a huge, massive billboard with all of their faces on it. It clearly stated, missing reward.
[52:15]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And it was very obvious that this family was not saying, my children died.
[52:20]
Cassie
We're actively. They were actively looking for them. A woman from St. Louis wrote to say Martha, one of their children, was living in a convent. A man in Texas claimed to have overheard a conversation in a bar about a Christmas Eve fire in West Virginia. Someone in Florida suggested the children were living with one of Jenny's distant relatives. George traveled tirelessly to follow each lead, always returning home without answers. In the late 1960s, more than 20 years after the fire, Jenny received an envelope postmarked from Kentucky. Inside was a photograph of a young man in his mid-20s. Written on the back were the words Lewis Sodder, I love Brother Frankie, and a string of letters and numbers. Brother Frankie was a reference to Franklin Sodder, one of the siblings who had survived the fire. The use of his nickname immediately stood out to Jenny and George because it suggested that the writer knew the family personally, not just from newspaper accounts.
[53:22]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Because in, I guess, in all.
[53:24]
Cassie
All the newspapers, they had always referred to him as Franklin. So to call him Frankie was. Was odd. And the photograph's resemblance to Lewis Sauter was striking. The same dark, curly hair, the same deep set eyes, the same strong nose and slight tilt of an eyebrow. And once again, the Sodders hired a private investigator and sent him to Kentucky. But following that, they never heard from the investigator again.
[53:56]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
This investigator, whatever he found, he either just ghosted.
[53:59]
Cassie
He either just took their money and ghosted them, or he found something in Kentucky.
[54:03]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And then either something happened to him.
[54:06]
Cassie
Or he was paid off to never.
[54:08]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Speak to them again.
[54:10]
Danielle
Wow.
[54:10]
Cassie
Is what they're assuming.
[54:12]
Danielle
I mean, it's awful either way, but I would hope that just for his safety, that he just was a dick and tug. Their money in ran.
[54:22]
Cassie
Yeah. Fearing after this, of course, fearing they might put their son in danger if he was truly alive, the solders chose not to publicize the message or the postmark. Instead, they updated the billboard to include the photograph.
[54:36]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So they were like, we'll put a.
[54:37]
Cassie
New photo of you, but we don't.
[54:39]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Want to say, like how we got.
[54:40]
Cassie
It in case you're you're in danger, george said in an interview not long before his death. It's hard sometimes to get sleep at night just wondering about them. After all, if someone wanted to get me, why did they get my family too? Unfortunately, he would never get answers. George Sauter died in 1969, still holding out hope for a break in the case. Jenny retreated further into mourning, wearing black for the rest of her life. She died in 1989, and with her death, the weathered billboard finally came down. The surviving children and grandchildren continued searching for forming theories of their own. Some believe the children had been taken by someone they knew, coaxed from the house under the promise of safety. Others believe the children were victims of organized crime or retaliation connected to George politics. Some believed they may not have survived long after the fire, even if they had escaped it. Sylvia, the youngest Solder child and the baby carried from the house that night, remained convinced her siblings had escaped the flames. She died in 2021 at the age of 79, still believing the truth had never been uncovered. Today, opinions remain divided. Some believe the children perished in the fire and that the grief led the family to search endlessly for signs of life. Others believe the sheer number of inconsistencies point to something far darker. What everyone agrees on is this. On Christmas Eve in 1945, in a small Appalachian town now known as the Gateway to Wild Places, a family celebrated the holiday together. Around one in the morning, a fire broke out. George and Jenny Sodder and four of their children escaped. The other five were never seen again. And in Fayetteville, West Virginia, a town shaped by ancient rivers and long memory, the question of what happened to the Sodder children still lingers unanswered today. The Solder story is part of Fayetteville's collected memory, mentions found in gift shops shared among locals and passed along to visitors curious about the town's history. As Fville continues to draw attention for the landscape and recreation, it also carries the legacy of a family that never abandoned hope. The Sodder's land was sold long ago, and the small memorial garden George built on the house's remains is no longer there. Today, a small white house now stands on the property where the Sodder home once burned. And lastly, if you or someone you know has information related to the disappearance of the five Sutter children, even something that may seem small or long forgotten, it could still matter. Because this case has never been resolved and includes the possibility of kidnapping, tips can be submitted to the FBI using their online tip form@tips.FBI.gov or by contacting a local FBI field office. Information can also be reported directly to Fayette County's sheriff office in West Virginia, where the fire occurred and where the original investigation was conducted. In cases like this, new details can surface decades later, and every lead deserves careful consideration. And that is my story of the Sutter family.
[57:53]
Danielle
Wow. It's nuts. For obvious reasons, but also because I can't help but think. Think, you know, five kids assuming that they were kidnapped, because it feels like that. It feels like that's the most logical explanation given everything that you have laid out. To have five kids together, especially under strange circumstances, or if they're acting strange or seem out of place, that's something that people will notice. And unless they were broken up from one another shortly thereafter, like, I doubt that they were all kept together, because that seems like a risky decision to be made from a kidnapper's perspective, to keep everybody together. But also, like, the oldest one was, what, 14, you said?
[58:43]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah.
[58:44]
Danielle
A teenager who. Something must have happened. Where. I guess my question to you is, do you think that they were kept alive?
[58:52]
Cassie
I. I think it's really hard to.
[58:54]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Know because what we've seen in other cases is that eyewitness. Eyewitness accounts aren't always real. And, you know, I think a lot of place.
[59:06]
Cassie
A lot of people get tips that just don't lead anywhere.
[59:09]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So I don't know if any of.
[59:10]
Cassie
These tips really are valid or not.
[59:13]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
You know, when you talk about the woman who saw an Italian family with five children, it could have just been an Italian family with five children who were having a bad day, you know.
[59:24]
Cassie
Or it could have been something.
[59:25]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
You know, she. She saw the pictures and she thought.
[59:28]
Cassie
It could be those children.
[59:29]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So it could certainly.
[59:32]
Cassie
I think.
[59:33]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I. I don't know.
[59:34]
Cassie
I don't see why you would kidnap children.
[59:39]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And if you're trying to get back.
[59:42]
Cassie
At him, I don't know why you would.
[59:44]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I don't know.
[59:45]
Danielle
It's just.
[59:46]
Cassie
It's such a dark place to do that to children.
[59:50]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I think that it's possible that either they were. They had weapons and they subdued the.
[59:57]
Cassie
Children and got them to leave the.
[59:59]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
House, or that it could have been someone they knew, which was why they.
[60:04]
Cassie
Went willingly, because, I mean, there was no sounds they didn't wake up to kids screaming. They didn't wake up. Like, you know, there was no evidence for the parents of them leaving the house if they were kept alive or not. I don't know, because I just don't know why they would take the children in the first Place, correct.
[60:21]
Danielle
Yeah, I also, I'm curious about that. But just for me, I feel like it would be. And of course there's a lot of anything can happen, especially with a child. I mean, whether you're 14 or you're still a kid, you know, with brainwashing and whatever other manipulation tactics there, or threats of violence that could have been, you know, it could have been done. But for me it's like that 14 year old child has memories of their family and their siblings in their life and then to just think that they've never. Unless that one picture was the one effort that they made, you know, snuck it out.
[61:04]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah.
[61:05]
Danielle
But to like not say anything to literally anyone or attempt to make contact with your family again or run away or whatever. And I'm not trying to like be like victim, blame me of like, why didn't you do that? It's just suspicious to me that none of the children at any point in time, to our knowledge, tried to do anything like that. But as far as like out of the house and not causing commotion or whatever, maybe they had all stayed up later like they said they were going to do, hung out together and they were all in the same area and then all eventually, you know, fell asleep or whatever without going to their beds. You know, Christmas Eve you kind of just conk out. Especially if you're kids and you're up playing and you just like pass out. But if someone got into the house and like chloroformed them or something or drug, you know, like. Yeah, they didn't have to wake them and drag them out of the house. They could have done it in a different way that I don't know.
[62:03]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, I feel like whatever I am with the Sutter family where I think. I don't know what, but I feel.
[62:10]
Cassie
Like something darker was at play here.
[62:12]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I think that if all five of.
[62:15]
Cassie
Their children had died in the fire, I think that there would have been a lot more evidence of that, I think.
[62:20]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I mean especially with accounts saying that.
[62:23]
Cassie
The, the fire started downstairs and if the children were upstairs you would think you would see them in the windows or you would.
[62:31]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Unless smoke inhalation or.
[62:33]
Cassie
I don't know, there's just so many inconsistencies and just the fact that there's no evidence of their deaths.
[62:40]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, I think is the part that makes me feel like something else happened. But what I just don't know.
[62:49]
Cassie
I do think that that photo later.
[62:51]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
On, I think that it could have been a joke, it could have been a really bad prank that Someone sent them.
[62:58]
Cassie
But the fact that they saw the.
[62:59]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Photo and thought it resembled their son.
[63:02]
Cassie
Makes me not think that.
[63:03]
Danielle
Do you know anything about. You said there was like numbers and letters and stuff. What was that about?
[63:08]
Cassie
Not sure.
[63:10]
Danielle
I didn't know if it was some sort of attempt at a code.
[63:12]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Like a code or something. Yeah, I'm not sure.
[63:16]
Danielle
Yeah. I don't know. I feel like just with everything that you said, I feel like they were kidnapped.
[63:23]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah.
[63:24]
Danielle
And in my opinion, I would love to hear from people like listeners who work and fire or have any sort of professional insight into if that seems suspicious to you as well. And not to just two people who learned about me who learned about it in, you know, the last hour, you know, but just people who have experience with whether or not that circumstance is as far fetched as it actually appears to us and seems to us, or if there's something that we're missing or that is like, oh, this actually could happen. You know, I would just. I would love to know that. But, yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's an enduring mystery for a reason. And it's because of all these little things that are all. When you look at it and zoom out, taking into account everything, it feels very suspicious.
[64:18]
Cassie
It does.
[64:18]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And my first thoughts thinking of, well, why would they.
[64:23]
Cassie
Why would they kidnap the kids and burn the house down? My thought is that they were trying.
[64:27]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
To kidnap the kids and then kill.
[64:28]
Cassie
The rest of the family. So there was a bunch of remains.
[64:31]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And it was like, oh, they all.
[64:32]
Cassie
Died to avoid suspicion.
[64:34]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And I feel like the plan didn't go as they wanted when half of the family escaped.
[64:41]
Cassie
Right.
[64:43]
Danielle
Not only the, you know, there's a bunch of other. In their plan that there would be a lot of other victims and kind of maybe investigators would just write it off at that and just kind of count everyone as deceased, but so that there's no follow. Like there's nobody left to look into a kidnapping.
[65:01]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, yeah. No one's gonna care about where these children are because their parents aren't alive and their family is not around to ask.
[65:08]
Danielle
The only person who would have been alive still is the one brother who wasn't even in the home.
[65:13]
Cassie
Yes.
[65:14]
Danielle
But God. Yeah. What. Regardless of what happened or not, like, to those, whether it was a kidnapping or they did, like, that's just so devastatingly awful for that family, the parents.
[65:26]
Cassie
And the siblings included, and to die.
[65:29]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Not knowing, ever knowing what happened to your children.
[65:36]
Bowen Yang
This is Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers.
[65:38]
Matt Rogers
From Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and.
[65:41]
Bowen Yang
Bowen Yang JBL Wireless Earbuds are for the those who are the first to try something unique.
[65:46]
Matt Rogers
The first wireless earbuds on the market with a touchscreen case which allows you to control your audio without reaching for your phone. They also have a touchscreen smart charging case for one touch control.
[65:56]
Bowen Yang
I love being able to touch my buds and control the volume with a.
[66:00]
Matt Rogers
Built in wireless transmitter that lets you plug and play with any device you want. JBL Wireless Earbuds connects you to all your favorite music, movies and games.
[66:09]
Bowen Yang
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Matt Rogers
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[66:31]
Bowen Yang
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[66:37]
Matt Rogers
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[66:43]
Bowen Yang
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[66:46]
Rob Gronkowski
Is Rob Gronkowski from Dudes on Dudes with Gronk and Jewels, Sunday mornings are sacred. I've got my game day routine, coffee jersey laid out and my lucky playlist. But the real game changer? New Morning Uncrustables sandwiches.
[67:04]
Jules
I've always loved uncrustable sandwiches and now I'm all about the new flavors with 12 grams of protein. Bright Eyed Berry or up an Apple. Bright Eyed Berries got that flashy, finesse vibe like your favorite slot receiver.
[67:21]
Rob Gronkowski
Up an apple. Tough and reliable like a do it all tight end.
[67:26]
Jules
And players love them. And did you know teams crush over 80,000 uncrustable sandwiches a year? They know it's good.
[67:33]
Rob Gronkowski
It's a snack that can go with you anywhere from the couch to the tailgate or even in the locker room. Soft bread, Yummy fillings. Protein packed. Once it's part of your ritual, you.
[67:47]
Jules
Don'T skip it easy enough for Gronk to grab straight from the freezer.
[67:51]
Rob Gronkowski
Your new Sunday kickoff ritual starts here with the new morning Uncrustable sandwiches packed with 12 grams of protein.
[68:05]
Cassie
Well, because that was such a rough.
[68:08]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Christmas episode and dark, I wanted to end it with I have a bunch of Patreon questions. Oh, and I added some holiday themed ones in here for us to answer and Be a little bit more fun at the end. If you like the dark and you're good ending there, then we'll see you next time. But if you want to listen to some Patreon questions, I thought I'd bring.
[68:33]
Cassie
Up the mood a little bit.
[68:35]
Danielle
Okay, that's helpful.
[68:36]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Okay, first Patreon question is favorite Christmas or holiday memory?
[68:43]
Danielle
Can you go first?
[68:45]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah. Okay. So mine, it's not actually a memory that I had. It's a video of me. And I didn't know that I did this, but now I think it's really funny. I don't know if it's my favorite memory ever, but it's just at the top of my mind. But I watched a VHS video of me as a kid opening presents on Christmas. And it was so funny and kind of, like, innocent and endearing because it's me and my brother opening presents, and my brother is, like, going crazy. He's just, like, ripping everything apart, like.
[69:16]
Cassie
Trying to get his next thing.
[69:18]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And I. Each time I get a present, I pick it up and I open it and I'm like, thank you so much. I always wanted this. And then for some of it, I'm like, what is it? And every single present I open, it's the same thing.
[69:34]
Cassie
I'm like, thank you so much.
[69:35]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I always wanted this. What is it? And it could be the smallest thing. It's like. It's like a pair of gloves. I'm like, thank you. I always, always wanted this. This is the best. And I'm just, like, so happy. And I just think it's really cute. That is cute.
[69:51]
Danielle
And it feels very. You.
[69:55]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Like, haven't changed?
[69:56]
Danielle
Nope. Mine would probably be. I don't know if it's like. It's something that comes to mind as very memorable. I was. I don't know how old I was. I must have been in middle school or, like, freshman in high school. Like, I was young, but my mom and my stepdad got me a. Or got me and my sister. It was the most surprised, I think I've ever been at a gift. And it was. They had packed suitcases with, like, different things, and it was basically a way of giving us a gift of a trip to Key West.
[70:33]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Oh, fun.
[70:34]
Danielle
And I was just really surprised by that and taken aback by that. Um, yeah. So that was a cool holiday memory, and that was. I loved that trip to Key. It's funny, too, because it just seemed like a very. I don't know what the motivation behind going to Key west was. There must have been something that Maybe I was unaware of, but it just felt like very. A random place for us to go. It's not like we're like Florida people. Like, we don't. Yeah.
[71:02]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
You know, it was like. It was something special.
[71:04]
Danielle
Yeah. That was the first time. First and only time I went to see Robert the Doll and, like, did a haunted Key west thing.
[71:11]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And. Yeah. Here you are.
[71:13]
Danielle
Here I am.
[71:14]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Influenced two years later. Okay, the next Patreon question is, what's your favorite holiday tradition you don't want to lose?
[71:24]
Danielle
Oh, my God. You've had time to think about these. I'm just.
[71:27]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I know. I can tell you.
[71:29]
Danielle
Yeah. You're like, I have come prepared. A tradition I don't want to lose. Okay. I feel like this is kind of easy for me. And it's nothing like crazy unique or anything, but my grandparents on my mom's side always had a family holiday party, and my family. So it's like my mom, her sister, her brother, and their children. And, like, that was. You know, and just over the years when I was growing up, it was like the thing. All our. The cousins were stoked to see each other, and it was just like the adults would get drunk on hard eggnog, and we would do Secret Santa, and, like, it was just a whole thing, and it was super fun. It was something we. Me and my cousin Molly are especially close. But even beyond just us, we were always really excited to see our extended family. We don't get together very much, and that was just kind of the time to do that. And, yeah, over the years, especially when I moved away and I was living out of state, I didn't always get to come back, and my grandpa is no longer with us, and my grandmother is quite sick, and it's just changed, you know, and some people are like, oh, I can't make it this year, and it's tough, you know, But I think that now that my cousins are having families of their own and small children and, like, my sister has her child happening again. Yeah. I think we're gonna ramp it up again a little bit, you know, and kind of breathe some new life into it and a different version of it, and I don't want to lose that, and I hope that's something that we can continue in a. In a new way.
[73:10]
Cassie
Yeah, I love that.
[73:12]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
That actually made me think of my family for the past. I want to say past five, five or six years. It hasn't been a long time tradition that's been going on, but we've been doing Yankee swaps. I Want to say for the past five or six years. And it's really fun because we have been. My family's been really good about either finding something really funny or finding something.
[73:35]
Cassie
That is very much their own niche.
[73:39]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Because they made it. I have a lot of people in my family that are really creative, an.
[73:44]
Cassie
Artist, so they'll actually make their own. Their own things for these Yankee Swaps.
[73:49]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
And it's been. It's been really fun. And also my family is really cutthroat at Yankee swap because, you know, you pick your number, if you. You'll take someone else's, there's no apologies. Like, it's so cutthroat and funny.
[74:02]
Danielle
Which, by the way, that for everyone, we call it Yankee swap here. But I think it goes by white elephant everywhere else. What? I know.
[74:11]
Cassie
I've never heard white.
[74:12]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
What does that even mean?
[74:14]
Danielle
It's the same thing. It's the same game.
[74:16]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
White elephant.
[74:17]
Danielle
Yep.
[74:18]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I mean, I guess Yankee were in the North.
[74:21]
Danielle
Yeah. I'm telling you because I remember someone explaining white elephant to me. I'm like, oh, you mean Yankee swap? And they're like, what is that? So I just wanted.
[74:29]
Cassie
So weird to me.
[74:30]
Danielle
Yeah. I just wanted.
[74:31]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I'm glad you clarified. For anyone listening who does white elephant.
[74:39]
Danielle
Actually, there is. The last time I did Yankee swap, we did a theme. Because it gets hard, especially when you have. I feel like you have. I know a lot of people are like, there's a $25 cap or like this is. It's amongst family or if there's coworkers or whatever. It gets. It can kind of get hard. Especially when you have people with varying interests or you have children. And then Also somebody who's 75 years old, it's like, yeah, what do you get? You know, like, what is the theme here?
[75:06]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
That's a whole trading thing.
[75:08]
Danielle
I know, but it's fun. Actually, there's an ornament behind me. It's like a little glass pane and it has an owl painted on it. That was one of my Yankee swap finds. Or wins because we did an ornament themed one.
[75:23]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Oh, that's cool. I like that.
[75:25]
Danielle
And so people went crazy. But they were all ornaments, you know, that's really fun. So just like different themes and stuff and. Yeah, yeah. Anyway.
[75:34]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, that's a good question. I like that question. Okay. Veering slightly away from holidays. What is the most unhinged name you ever saw for a pet when you were working in vet med or the funniest.
[75:47]
Danielle
Oh, my God. Wow. That's so crazy. You asked me about Vet Med right now. I had the most vivid dream last night of holding a cat for an IV catheter, like for somebody to be placing it. And I was a holder, and I was like, I don't want to do this. They're gonna bite me. And I was like, I'm like, why am I doing this? I've done this enough. And I hated holding cats for IV catheters because you can't muzzle them. No, I mean, there are cat muzzles, but they're.
[76:18]
Cassie
They don't really work.
[76:19]
Danielle
And yeah, their claws are out. And if they're on drugs and they're freaking out and it's just. It's hard to breathe. Yeah, you, like, can't scruff up. It's. It's. Anyway, so anyway, yeah, Vet Med. Happy memories.
[76:34]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Most unhinged name.
[76:36]
Danielle
God, there's been so many. What was. What was her.
[76:40]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
There was one name, Princess Geneva. I remember there was another.
[76:44]
Danielle
Her Royal Majesty. Something. Oh, she was a golden retriever and she was super old.
[76:51]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yes.
[76:51]
Danielle
Her Royal Majesty.
[76:54]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It was like six. It was like six names.
[76:57]
Danielle
I know. And I used to just call her Herm because it was always hrm Just called her Herm. Her Royal Majesty Princess Bubbles was one.
[77:08]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Bubbles. I really.
[77:10]
Danielle
Oh, no. Tia Maria Bubbles. I'm sorry.
[77:12]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Oh, yeah, Tia Maria Bubbles. I remember Wasabi, I just thought was a really cute name.
[77:18]
Danielle
Well, you liked Wasabi as the animal. Yeah, yeah. God. This wasn't in Vet Med, but I remember one time there's a. At the Bear Creek Dog park in Colorado Springs. I'll never forget it. It's a huge off leash dog park, like Acres. Like, people would sometimes tie bandanas to their dogs and be like, don't worry, my owner's here somewhere. And just let them go, because you don't. They. They could be off, like.
[77:44]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah.
[77:44]
Danielle
You know? But anyway, there was this person who was just yelling, trying to find their dog and its name. It was Tuna. So they were just yelling tuna super loud for so long. My tuna is not coming. Okay, let's stop screaming like tuna. And eventually it was a little Boston black and white Boston terrier. Terrier. And they came up. They're like, tuna. That's bad. I'm like, that's bad Tuna.
[78:14]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I like. I like dogs with people names.
[78:17]
Danielle
Yeah.
[78:17]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I don't know. Something about a dog named Kevin. Just, you're yelling for Kevin and a Yorkshire terrier comes around the corner. It's just. It's hilarious.
[78:29]
Danielle
I had two foster puppies for literally, like Two days. Because Chaska hated them and I had to bring them back. They were tiny and they were named after spaghetti or pastas. And one was named Gemolini and. God, Gemma Gemolini and something else, but they were pastas. They were really cute.
[78:51]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I like food names, too.
[78:53]
Danielle
I don't know. It's been a while. It's been so long since we're in bed.
[78:57]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It's been a while. Yeah. Well, the next question was, do you like pugs?
[79:02]
Danielle
Why would you ask me that? I. Okay, here's the thing. There have been very, very few animals of any species that I have truly disliked as, like, an individual, you know, despite how I feel about their breed or whatever. Like, I could be like, oh, calico, Calico, cats suck. Like, they're scary and mean, but, like, I don't. Not like, I still like them. I still like you. I just wouldn't want to be in a room with you, you know, or.
[79:35]
Cassie
Care for you doing medical.
[79:37]
Danielle
Yeah, Right. And that's kind of how I feel about pugs. Like, I've never met a pug that I dislike. I think that every animal, there's something to like about them. Unless there's only one that really comes to mind that I was like this. It was like it should have been behaviorally euthanized immediately. It was that bad. And it eventually did get euthanized for behavior stuff. After two years. It was only two years old.
[80:00]
Cassie
Oh, my God. That's.
[80:01]
Danielle
And it was rough. It was really, really rough.
[80:04]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah.
[80:04]
Danielle
I just don't. There's just so many medical. There's so many medically wrong things with pugs that I just feel really bad for them. And I don't want to ruffle any feathers with people who love pugs, because people go hard for pugs. But it's just from, again, a medical standpoint and just all of the problems they have in their. Like, people think it's cute that they snort and stuff.
[80:28]
Cassie
It's like they can't breathe.
[80:30]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It is cute, though.
[80:32]
Danielle
It's not.
[80:33]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Imagine that in your little snorts and they're making little noises and they're running around with their little curly tails.
[80:41]
Danielle
I don't stand by that.
[80:43]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
But I like bugs.
[80:44]
Danielle
Their eyes. I agree. They always have to do annuculations because their eyes fall out.
[80:50]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It's crazy. Like, they should not be bred ethically.
[80:54]
Danielle
From an athletic exists.
[80:56]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
No, but from like a cute, squishy point of view. Yes, I like them.
[81:01]
Danielle
Yeah. Okay.
[81:03]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Danielle, I looked up a song you said you love. Don't Fence me in. And it's a song I'll always keep.
[81:08]
Cassie
Tell me more music you love.
[81:11]
Danielle
So Don't Fence Me in is a song that strangely enough, ties back to my grandparents that I was just talking about with the Christmas party. The first time I ever heard it was in a national park on the same national park trip that inspired this entire podcast.
[81:26]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Oh, look at that.
[81:28]
Danielle
So it was a family trip to Yellowstone when I was in high school, and that's when I bought the Death in Yellowstone book and all that. And my grandparents were singing this song and I'm like, what the heck is this? And it's titled Don't Fence Me In. It's a very old timey song. It's been done a few times, like, by other artists, but they're all old timey artists. Like, that's how old the song is. So, yeah, it's not like anybody within the last probably two decades have redone it. So just keep that. Bear that in mind if you want to listen to it. But the lyrics are so just. It's all about, like, not being contained or fenced in by other people. And they just want to be, you know, just drop me to my saddle and let me ride out west and be by myself and be free and, you know, it's just. I love it. It hits hard. It's one of my favorite songs. My mom sends it to me on my birthday every single year, like a recording of it or whatever.
[82:26]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So what is your other music taste? Kygo Fenian and Kygo.
[82:33]
Danielle
Bing Crosby and Kygo. Thank you for that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't listen to a ton of.
[82:38]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Music and Cardi B.
[82:41]
Danielle
And Wap. Yeah, I contain multitudes. I have become a swifty recently.
[82:50]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Me too.
[82:51]
Danielle
Did you watch her documentary came out the other day. Did you watch it?
[82:53]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, I watched it. Did you?
[82:55]
Danielle
No, I'm saving it. Are you Cozy night in.
[82:59]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
It's emotional. It's emotional. Yeah. Oh, I really liked it.
[83:04]
Cassie
Yeah.
[83:04]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, for sure.
[83:05]
Danielle
Cool. Yeah, I've become more of a. I don't want to say I'm a swiftie because I. I feel like I'm not that. Like I don't know enough and I haven't been around enough. But I like this album. I like her. I just. Yeah.
[83:19]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah. I hope she. I feel sad because I feel like I missed out on a. On a tour that will never happen again and was like a once in a truly. A once in a lifetime tour. Yeah, she does something bigger, um, which I don't know how that would she might be able to.
[83:37]
Danielle
Speaking of music, I'm waiting. And this should be included in my very short list. Eminem. I've been a die hard Eminem person for ever.
[83:48]
Cassie
Yeah.
[83:49]
Danielle
My locker in eighth grade, plastered with his pictures. Just like that's all it was. And I know he's been resurfacing lately, I think because he has some new music, but also because him and 50 are like really, you know, they're kind of like a package deal. And 50 just.
[84:06]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, they're taking down Diddy right now.
[84:08]
Danielle
Yeah, they're. Yeah. Going after Diddy and. As they should. And I don't know, I just think that Eminem has. He's done some. I think everyone has, especially in that world, has done some things that are not great. But I think that I just. I really like him. I like his music. I think I just like it a lot. I'm just reflecting back to like. I'm like, yeah, he's so great. And then in my mind, the lyrics of Imma kill you are in my brain.
[84:37]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Which aren't great. Yeah. Anyway, there's that. Okay, one more question. If national parks were cocktails, what would your favorite park taste like?
[84:48]
Danielle
So what's our favorite cocktail? Is that the question, essentially?
[84:51]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Well, if national. What's your favorite national park, and what would that cocktail taste like? I feel like mine would have like a cedar sage gin. I don't like gin, though.
[85:03]
Danielle
Oh, that's like more pine, right?
[85:05]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah. Cedar sage, cranberries.
[85:08]
Danielle
Cranberries.
[85:09]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Or maybe I'm just thinking of Christmas.
[85:11]
Danielle
You're thinking of your simmer pot right now.
[85:14]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Literally smells great in you.
[85:20]
Danielle
That's tough. Because my favorite cocktail, my go to cocktail, is a tequila sour. A true tequila sour. Not sour mix with tequila, which also is not quite a margarita, but it's not a true tequila sour. But if you ask for tequila sour, a lot of times they'll serve you that, which is not the right thing.
[85:41]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Pisco sours are really good.
[85:43]
Danielle
Pisco sours are good.
[85:45]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Those were great.
[85:45]
Danielle
Yep. I actually just went to a speakeasy in Gatlinburg, which was actually really nice. That was like the one thing that we were both very surprised by. But it's a coffee shop during the day and then they take you through this like fake freezer at night, and it's a full blown speakeasy and it's super nice, fun. But they sold me or they gave me the tequila sour that wasn't quite a tequila sour. So upset about that. But where you took Me for my birthday, Yvonne's in Boston. They had really good drinks. Yeah, their drinks were super good.
[86:24]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, they were really good.
[86:26]
Danielle
I feel like you don't drink enough to, like, have, like, a cocktail that you could. Neither do I. Of like. Oh, it would definitely be this. For this park. Yeah.
[86:35]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I just don't know them very much because I don't drink really.
[86:39]
Danielle
Well, what's your favorite alcohol?
[86:41]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Kahlua.
[86:43]
Cassie
Whatever.
[86:44]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Doesn't taste like alcohol. Bailey's Kahlua.
[86:47]
Danielle
Yeah. Your go to is espresso. Yeah.
[86:50]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Espresso martinis, which is funny because I don't drink coffee.
[86:54]
Danielle
Really.
[86:54]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
I mean, occasionally I do, but not really.
[86:56]
Danielle
Yeah. So what park would you say that would go for, like, that would go with that Espresso martini.
[87:03]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Espresso martini park. I don't know. It feels a little fancy.
[87:07]
Danielle
Feels elevated.
[87:08]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, elevated but cozy. Maybe like Denali.
[87:12]
Danielle
Oh. Like, you can picture yourself, like, drinking an espresso martini, like, in a log cab while looking wintry outside. And finally.
[87:19]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah, for sure.
[87:20]
Danielle
Okay. Okay. There you go.
[87:23]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Where would you drink your tequila?
[87:26]
Danielle
I'll drink a tequila sour anywhere, but.
[87:29]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Feels tropical to me.
[87:30]
Danielle
Feels tropical. Maybe like the US Virgin Islands.
[87:37]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Okay. Or for some reason, I was picturing you in dry Tortugas.
[87:42]
Danielle
Oh.
[87:43]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Because there's history.
[87:44]
Danielle
Yeah, well, there's history.
[87:46]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
So much history there. And then you'd be with your tequila sour.
[87:49]
Danielle
Yeah. Overlooking the old prison. Ah, yes. Good times.
[87:54]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Lovely.
[87:56]
Danielle
Perfect. Okay, well, thanks for gathering those. That was a nice way to end because I felt like I was just gonna walk away from this depressed.
[88:04]
Co-host (possibly another female host)
Yeah. Well, happy holidays, everyone. If you are celebrating whatever you're doing this Christmas, Hanukkah, every, all the holidays, whatever it is you celebrate, we hope you're having a wonderful time of year. We know this is kind of like a slowdown period, so we appreciate you hanging out with us still, and we'll see you next time.
[88:24]
Danielle
Well, until next time, enjoy the view.
[88:26]
Cassie
But watch your back.
[88:27]
Danielle
Bye, everyone. Bye. Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear exclusive bonus stories, join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Patreon subscribers have access to our National Park After Dark book club, live streams.
[88:42]
Cassie
Discord, and much more.
[88:44]
Danielle
If you prefer to watch our episodes video episodes are now available on YouTube. If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review and and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. And to follow along with all our adventures, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and X at national park after dark. Get ahead with one dose. Sofluza, Baloxavir, Marboxyl Xofluza is available for delivery by mail or at your local pharmacy. Don't wait until it's too late. Be ready with Sofluza. Ask your doctor about sofluza and visit.
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