349: Into the Wild Truth: What You Didn’t Know About the McCandless Story

Summary

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National Park After Dark

Episode 349: Into the Wild Truth: What You Didn’t Know About the McCandless Story

Released: January 19, 2026 | Hosts: Danielle (Al) & Cassie (Kat)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This deeply personal and eye-opening episode unpacks the real story behind Christopher McCandless—the subject of Jon Krakauer's Into the Wild—by centering the perspective of his sister, Karine McCandless. The hosts shift the focus from the mythologized tale of Chris’s tragic Alaskan quest to the family trauma and abuse that shaped both siblings, drawing on Karine’s memoir, The Wild Truth, to reveal the powerful, painful reasons Chris left home. With empathy, nuance, and tough honesty, Danielle and Cassie discuss how concealed domestic violence and family dysfunction filled the gaps left by Krakauer's book and Sean Penn's film, inviting listeners to reconsider what they thought they knew about this staple story of modern American adventure.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The McCandless Story as Myth and Mystery

• Chris McCandless (aka Alexander Supertramp) inspired millions after Into the Wild became both a bestselling book (Krakauer) and a Hollywood movie (Sean Penn, 2007).
• His death—starvation after months alone in Alaska’s backcountry—generated admiration and critique. Some saw rebellion against materialism; others saw recklessness.
• But “in the book Into the Wild, Chris’s reasons for leaving home and venturing into the wilderness are left somewhat vague.” (Al, 00:56)

2. A Family Disguised: The Truth Hidden in Plain Sight

• Karine’s memoir, The Wild Truth, finally depicted the severe emotional and physical abuse that led Chris to cut all ties, adding vital missing context.
• “Physical and emotional abuse that she and her brother endured at the hands of their parents … may change how you see this famous story entirely.” (Al, 04:49)

Notable Quote:

“People think they understand our story because they know how his ended, but they don't know how it all began.”
— Karine, quoted by Al (00:45)

3. Walt and Billie McCandless: Dark Secrets Behind Middle-Class Success

• Their father, a successful NASA engineer, led a double life—cheating on his wife, maintaining two families, and ruling with violence and control.
• “Walt started essentially a double life ... maintaining two residences and having children with two women at the same time. … So there's Marsha with six kids, and then Billy, who has two, which are Karine and Chris.” (Al, 13:01)

Childhood Abuse:

• Chris and Karine were forced to witness and experience violent outbursts and intimidation.
• Chris: “apologizing for causing such trouble.” (Karine, quoted at 15:48)
• The parents have denied these accounts (“fictionalized writing”), but Karine corroborated her claims with witness testimony and family records.

Notable Quote:

“He peeled away her strengths until all of her insecurities were exposed. Then came the salt in the sugar jar. He gave Mom an expensive token from his trip and all was forgotten.”
— Karine, quoted by Al (17:34)

4. Growing Up: Siblings’ Shared Bond and Trauma

• Chris became a high-achiever and protector for Karine. They kept their secret, excelling in school and extracurriculars despite home life (“I never felt the need to compete with Chris. I just wanted to be like him.” — Karine, 25:29).
• Chris’s first “breakaway” road trips were met with efforts by Walt to exert control; after a confrontation, Chris’s resolve to detach hardened.

5. Leaving for Good: “Divorcing” the Family

• Through letters, Chris explained he intended to permanently cut off their parents, documenting abuse and the denial he encountered.
• He wrote to Karine:

“Once the time is right, with one abrupt, swift action, I'm going to completely knock them out of my life. I'll be through with them once and all, forever.” (Al quoting Chris, 34:08)

• After college graduation (Emory University), Chris donated his savings to charity, destroyed his remaining cash, adopted a new name, and set out with no itinerary.

6. Myth vs. Reality: Life on the Road

• The episode dispels the notion that Chris was simply escaping into nature. Instead, his odyssey, while seeking adventure, was also a quest for freedom from pain and abuse.
• Chris cultivated friendships with people he met on the road, who cared for him and noticed his reluctance to talk about his family.
• Final photo: “Jim snapped a photo of Chris smiling at the trailhead ... It was the last anyone would ever see of Chris alive.” (41:01)

7. Aftermath: Grief, Public Narrative, and the Battle for Truth

• Family Responses: After Chris’s death, Karine grieved, while her parents denied all wrongdoing and embraced the role of martyrs, exploiting public sympathy.
• “They denied any knowledge of why Chris might have left … weaponizing Chris’s goodbye note to claim he had a happy childhood.” (45:45)
• Karine was tormented by enabling their narrative—having, at first, asked Krakauer to withhold the abuse details for hopes of family reconciliation.

Notable Confrontation:

“You're so wrong to use God in this way, I cautioned them. … Chris said ... his life began during college after he left the two of you behind. That is his life he was talking about. …” (Al quoting Karine, 49:45)

8. Telling the Whole Story: The Role of Karine

• Years later, with Sean Penn and Jon Krakauer, Karine ensured the Into the Wild movie included more truth—if still omitting the full scope of abuse.
• She eventually published The Wild Truth (2014) to finally reveal what was omitted, with Krakauer’s support.

Addressing Blame:

“I do however hold Walt and Billy accountable for Chris's disappearance and for us not knowing where he was.”
— Karine, after her memoir’s release, (62:17)

• Karine has since spoken to students about the real story, finding that their openness about family abuse helped others feel less alone.
• “After each lecture ... at least one student stays behind ... sharing with Karine that they're dealing with the same thing at home and that through Chris and Karine's story, they don't feel quite as alone.” (64:45)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Family Complexity:

“You can be a victim and you can be an enabler. … It's not a black and white scenario. … It's people responding to a bad situation and surviving a bad situation.”
— Kat, 21:12

• On Empathy:

“I was so impressed by this woman and her capability of just providing empathy to people who … I could see how anyone … would throw in the towel ... and she's just so almost relentless in the amount of grace that she gives to these individuals.”
— Al, 20:55

• On Re-traumatization:

“Not only are you reliving your own trauma, but you're also being re-traumatized because of the fight … to just say your own truth.”
— Kat, 68:34

• On Popular Perception:

“Many readers mourned Chris ... their idealism or dreams of adventure ... others found plenty to critique. … [But] people think they understand our story because they know how it ended, but ... they don't know how it began.”
— Al, 00:04

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Chris McCandless: Setting the Myth — 00:04–04:49
• Family Background & Abuse Revealed — 11:17–20:55
• Karine’s Childhood Perspective — 24:23–29:45
• Chris’s Plans to Sever Ties — 34:08–38:50
• The Alaskan Odyssey & Tragic End — 38:50–42:00
• Grief and “Sanitizing” the Public Narrative — 43:44–50:31
• Karine’s Quest for Truth, Family Confrontation — 51:05–57:49
• Movie Adaptation, Memoir Release, and Legacy — 59:29–66:22
• Final Reflections & Advice for Listeners — 66:38–69:45

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Flow & Tone

• The episode is candid but empathetic, blending personal memories with analysis and self-awareness. The hosts honor Karine as a survivor and truth-teller—never painting the story in simple black-and-white terms—and stress the broader impact of telling the “wild truth” beneath the legend.
• Ultimately, Danielle and Cassie urge listeners to read The Wild Truth for themselves:

“If you don’t know the whole story, read Into the Wild, then The Wild Truth, then watch the movie.”
— Al, 69:48

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Takeaways for New Listeners

• The real story of Chris McCandless is inseparable from the legacy of abuse and trauma he escaped, and his popular myth doesn't make sense without the “wild truth” his sister courageously shared.
• Karine's journey shows the complexity of survival, loyalty, empathy, and the difficult work of telling painful truths—even when the world may not want to hear them.
• By centering Karine’s voice, this episode reframes Chris’s legacy beyond fatal romanticism and honors those whose stories are often left behind.

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For more context: read Jon Krakauer’s Into the Wild, Karine McCandless’ The Wild Truth, and rewatch Sean Penn’s film adaptation with fresh understanding.

Transcript

[Al]

In September of 1990, two miles into a remote wilderness outside of Denali national park, hunters found the body of a young man. Christopher McCandless, just 24 years old, had died of starvation after three and a half months on his own. Two years earlier, the well read college graduate had changed his name, donated all of his savings to charity, and set out on the road without letting his family know where he was headed or how to reach him. Soon after, Outside magazine published an article about Chris's death, generating more letters from readers than any piece they had ever published. Within a few years, the author of that article, Jon Krakauer, immortalized the story in the bestselling book, into the Wild. Many readers mourned Chris seeing in the young man a part of themselves, their idealism or dreams of adventure creating. Krakauer, for his part, saw his own youth in Chris's story. But while some readers celebrated the ideals Chris strived for in this life, turning away from consumerism and finding meaning in nature, others found plenty to critique in his death. Readers labeled him as unprepared, naive, arrogant and selfish, questioning why he would cut ties with his family and arguing that coverage of Chris only served to glorify his student stupidity. In the book into the Wild, Chris's reasons for leaving home and venturing into the wilderness are left somewhat vague. It's implied he had a difficult relationship with his father and hated his family's emphasis on materialism. Krakauer met extensively with Chris's family, including his parents and his younger sister, Karine. Karine shared stories of their childhood and letters they had exchanged while Chris was in college. Much of what she shared made it into the book, with one important exception, one powerful and painful truth that Korine asked Krakauer to exclude. Something that may change how you see this famous story entirely. Korine said, people think they understand our story because they know how his ended, but they don't know how it all began. What really caused Chris McCandless to cut ties with society and venture into the wild? Welcome to National Park After Dark.

[Sponsor Voice]

Well, welcome back to National Park After Dark.

[Kat]

This is a story. This is probably the most recommended story that we have had since we started the podcast.

[Al]

Yeah. Quick question, Kat. Do you know. Do you happen to know who Chris McCann is? Yeah, I'm just giving everyone crap. Yeah, I feel like I have to just say this in, like, you know, Rafiki's voice. It is time.

[Kat]

It is time.

[Al]

It is time because it is time. Like you just said, this is among, I would say, top three story that has ever been recommended. We'll get to the other two eventually. But I wanted to take the time almost five years in now to do this because it's a huge story and it's such a staple in the outdoor world. As far as a story that everyone knows or thinks they know or has opinions on or has grown up with, with either the book or the movie or the articles or, you know, it's just kind of larger than life. And I felt a little intimidated by it, to be honest. And I wanted to do it justice. So that's why I waited until I had my footing a little bit in the podcasting world, until we dove into it.

[Kat]

So sorry for the wait, but we're here now. That's all that matters. 2026 is off to a great start.

[Al]

For stories, at least in National Park After Dark. The world, not so much. But yeah, let's focus on this. That aside, let's escape into this story really quick. Give us our give ourselves a little bit of a mental break. But before we do, just a quick reminder. We are hosting the Banff Film Festival in Burlington, Vermont, this February, early February.

[Kat]

February 6th and 7th. If you want to come hang out with us, they're going to show some really awesome films. We're hosting it. You can come hang out with us. There's going to be merch table. Al is hosting it and he would be thrilled if you came and said hi to him. So there are tickets available. We'll put it in the show link. Show notes. Show link, show notes. We'll put you link in the description.

[Al]

In the show notes for you to.

[Kat]

Check it out and buy some tickets if you wanna. Yeah, if you wanna come.

[Al]

Yeah. So that's a reminder for that as we record this for our Patreon community. We had an Patreon exclusive trip go on sale and sell out within the last 20 minutes. We're going to Scotland this year with our Patreon community. So thank you everyone for making that happen. We will be announcing another trip very soon. If you are sad that you it's not to Scotland again, but.

[Kat]

And it will be on Patreon, it will be on.

[Al]

Remember, we warned you. Didn't we say this a couple weeks ago? If you want to know.

[Kat]

You want to know. Patreon sees it first and then if there happen to be spots left, everyone will, will get a chance. But we wanted to give our Patreon subscribers just a little extra benefit because they've been supporting us for a long time.

[Al]

Yeah. Okay. Well, without further ado, here we go. The Death of Chris McCandless is among the most famous and well known stories in the modern American outdoor community. As the subject of a wildly popular book and Hollywood movie, it has been told widely and very well. If you've never heard of Chris McCandless, I'm going to share a short version of his story today. But this is not his story alone. The episode will begin and end with the perspective of Chris's sister, Karine. Twenty years after into the Wild was published, Karine wrote a book of her own titled the Wild Truth where she tries to shed light on why Chris left the way that he did. A memoir of the McCandless family, including details that were hinted at but never truly and directly in depth discussed in into the Wild. Physical and emotional abuse that she and her brother endured at the hands of their parents. In her book, Karine discusses their tumultuous childhood, Chris's departure and the fallout his death had on her family. Her story is a reminder of the lives behind the headlines of reckoning with loss and wrestling with the meaning of forgiveness. And. And that all being said, just as a preface, the story does include discussions of domestic violence, emotional and physical abuse. So this is your heads up to listen with care. And I hate to say like if you've never heard of Chris's story because I feel like I just assume that everyone has but have you watched the movie recently or read the book recently?

[Kat]

Not recently, but when it first came out and it. I remember when this was all in the headlines being like, what is this story? And I've definitely. So fun fact is that I was, I have seen the movie but I was also in Alaska at the time when they removed the bus that he was staying in Alaska via helicopter.

[Al]

Yep.

[Kat]

And I did not see the helicopter carrying the bus, but I saw it on social media right down the street from where I was and I missed it. Oh no, like not that long. So I was. I was in the region that the bus was the day that they removed it.

[Al]

It's like a monumental moment. Yeah.

[Kat]

If I had only seen it to.

[Al]

Be near at least at the time it was happening. Yeah, I actually reread. So in preparation for this episode, I reread into the Wild. I rewatched into the Wild and of course I read Karine's memoir and I totally forgot that Vince Vaughn and Kristen Stewart were Into the Wild in Into the Wild.

[Kat]

Are they?

[Al]

Yes, totally forgot.

[Kat]

What do they do?

[Al]

Well, Vince Vaughn plays one of the Wayne, one of the men that. We'll get into that Chris meets. And Kristen Stewart plays like a girl that he meets very briefly in one of his stops.

[Kat]

Interesting.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Kat]

It's been so long. Do you remember what year the movie came out?

[Al]

Early 90s, I want to say. Or not early 90s, probably mid-90s. Because the book came out, I think in 92. Or the articles came out in 92.

[Kat]

I was an adult when the movie came out. Or like a teenager.

[Al]

You were a teenager. But I'm saying the. So the. Because there's the original article, there's the book.

[Kat]

2007.

[Al]

Yes. Okay. Because Sean Penn directed the movie and we'll get into it. Yeah. But yeah. So anyway, it was just kind of strange. Kind of like when I saw Vince Vaughn in Jurassic Park. I'm like, oh yeah, Vince Vaughn was in Jurassic Park.

[Kat]

It's like, oh yeah, there you are.

[Al]

What are you doing here? Anyway. Okay, Chris, let's get into this.

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[Al]

From her earliest childhood memories, Karine McCandless remembers how happy her brother was in nature. In the woods near their house, Chris would teach her about the different trees they passed while they tromped through the creeks and skipped rocks. Armed with shovels and spoons, they'd unearth shells or pottery shards from their backyard, and Chris would weave an elaborate story about each discovery. They built snow forts in the winter, and on family trips to Shenandoah national park, they'd sit around the campfire, look up into the night sky, and ask their dad about the stars. At night, in their sleeping bags, Chris would ask if she heard an alien outside of their tent. Sometimes Karine would get a little scared. Sometimes she would laugh. But she knew that Chris would always protect her. Chris McCandless was born in 1968 in Los Angeles. And three years later came Karine. Two bright young kids born to an upper middle class family. Their father, Walt, was a successful aerospace engineer who worked with NASA and private firms during the space race. Their mother, Billy, met Walt after becoming a secretary at his engineering firm. For Karine, it was easy to see why they fell for one another. Billy was beautiful, eight years younger than Walt, and had moved to LA with hopes of becoming a dancer. Walt was charming, well read and a talented jazz pianist. And at the time that they started dating, Walt was also married with three kids. Oh, scandalous scandal. Walt's wife Marcia was his childhood sweetheart and the two were expecting a fourth child. So he's cheating on his pregnant wife. He has a whole ass family.

[Kat]

God, that's awful.

[Al]

Walt reassured Billy that he was going to leave Marcia, but that she was refusing to accept a divorce.

[Kat]

Classic. Yeah, classic.

[Al]

Can we get more creative? Like, it's always the same thing over and over.

[Kat]

She has no idea. You want a divorce because you don't want one. You just have a mistress.

[Al]

And of course, that proved to be a lie. At first, he tried to hide his affair from Marcia. But after getting caught with Billy's ID in his pocket, Walt became brazen in what Karine describes as a need for control. He flaunted his relationship with Billy in front of Marsha, bragging about Billy's cooking, and even arguing that they should all live under the same roof. The audacity, yeah, never fails to amaze. He also refused to grant Marcia a divorce, threatening to cut her off financially if she tried to do anything. All the while, Walt's repeated promises to Billy that he would get a divorce began to Ring hollow. It became clear that Walt was not in a hurry to leave Marcia, yet Billy decided to forgive him in order to start a family of her own. Hoping to preserve her reputation, Billy sent in a fake wedding announcement and honeymoon photo photos to her family. Yeah, she's doubling down in this. And so Walt started essentially a double life, maintaining two residences and having children with two women at the same time. So there's Marsha with six kids, eventually has six kids, and then Billy, who has two, which are Karine and Chris. Okay, okay.

[Kat]

So. So Billy. So Karine and Chris's mom is the mistress.

[Al]

Is Billy. Yes, yes. She begins as a mistress and then eventually becomes his wife. And.

[Kat]

Gotcha.

[Al]

We'll get there. But just to kind of set the scene with. There's a lot of kind of people involved in overlapping family dynamics that can get confusing, but.

[Kat]

Gotcha.

[Al]

Chris and Karine would learn the messy details of all of this many years later. But when they were kids, they knew they had siblings that they saw from time to time. And they had two parents who provided what might otherwise appear to be a normal childhood. Billy was a soccer mom who went to all of Chris's games and organized Karine's Girl Scout meetings. On camping trips, Walt would teach them how to lace up their hiking boots and how to camp. When Karine and Chris built forts in the living room, Walt played guitar, sang songs, and pretended that they were camping. One Christmas Eve, their parents threw metal trash cans onto the roof to make the kids believe that they had heard Santa's sleigh landing. They received gifts of clothes, new bikes, the latest skis, all the material possessions a wealthy family could afford for their kids. In family portraits at the time, everyone was smiling, and those were some of the good moments. But there were bad moments, too, like when the door slammed and Walt chased Billy up the stairs, hurling insults before throwing her around and choking her hard. Kids. Karine remembers her mom shouting, help. Look what your father is doing. Kids. Walt would reply, get in here. Look what your mother is making me do.

[Kat]

Oh, my God.

[Al]

Karine would scream and try to push him off, but Chris would pull her back to safety. He had learned the hard way that they were not to intervene when their parents weren't taking their anger out on one another. Chris and Karine became the targets after a forgotten chore. For example, they were instructed to walk into Walt's closet and choose the belt to be whipped with. This is a direct quote from Karine from her memoir, Hand in Hand. We looked through his assortment of belts, trying to Remember which ones hurt the least, which buckles lacked sharp edges. If we chose incorrectly, he would surely drag us back in here to select a more suitable option himself. I remember Chris crying desperately in anguish over being born, apologizing for causing such trouble. So it's important to acknowledge that Walt and Billy, both who are very much still alive, have publicly denied how they are portrayed in Korine's book, calling it fictionalized writing that has absolutely nothing to do with our beloved son. Yet Karine shares plenty of examples just like this in sometimes even worse. To corroborate this cruel and abusive behavior, including several from outside of their own home. Like that it didn't just happen behind closed doors in their residence.

[Kat]

Like there were witnesses to this happening. Yeah, yeah.

[Al]

Karine's half sister Shannon, daughter of Walt and Marsha, remembers their father in a violent rage that left Marsha with a broken vertebrae in her back. After that, Marsha began to plan her exit strategy, ignoring his verbal threats because remember, he was like, you can't do anything. Like I'm threatening her if she ever tried to leave him or divorce him in any way.

[Kat]

Yeah. Not giving her money, not giving her any money. And yeah, yeah.

[Al]

So ignoring all of that, she opened a bank account on her own and got a job so that Walt couldn't hold them hostage financially. Finally, in 1972, Walt beat her so badly that their 13 year old son called the police. After that, Mara filed for divorce and moved her family to Colorado. Billy threatened Walt with divorce as well. She met with a divorce attorney and frequently took Chris and Karine on house hunting trips while discussing plans to move out. Sometimes she and Walt would sit the kids down and force them to choose which parent they would want to live with. For the kids, it was a lose lose situation, invariably resulting in one parent or the other screaming at them for being ungrateful and choosing incorrectly. Other times, when Walt came home from a business trip, Billy would inform him of her plans to move out. And here's another quote from Corrine's book. You're stupid, Billy. You don't have a college degree. I can see to it that you can't get a good job and there's no way you can take care of those kids on your own. He peeled away her strengths until all of her insecurities were exposed. Then came the salt in the sugar jar. He gave mom an expensive token from his trip and all was forgotten. As a kid, Chris had a sympathetic view of his mom's situation, seeing she was a victim too. But as he grew up things began to shift. He began to understand the true nature of his father's infidelity, something Billy helped to conceal. And he witnessed time and time again how the latest act of physical or emotional violence, either leveled at her or at her children, would be forgiven in exchange for an expensive gift. A cycle he watched repeat so often that Billy began to play the role not of a victim, but. But of an enabler. Marsha left Walt, but Billy always forgave him. And Corinne, I just want to say, for her part, is very, very intentional and deliberate throughout her book to approach her parents with empathy, despite all of the painful memories that she has and all of the examples that she provides. Throughout her retelling of her childhood and even into adulthood, which we'll get into later, she tried really hard not to portray them as strictly villains or monsters or the bad people in the story, but as people like every one of us, who are capable of a lot of different things. Kindness and warmth, but also cruelty and abuse and prone to making mistakes, she kind of paints them as these flawed parents that she hopes to maintain a normal, quote, unquote, relationship with. And I do, I do, gotta say, like, I finished that book with a lot of feelings. It's quite the roller coaster, not just with Chris's story and revisiting that whole thing, but hers and how it's interwoven. But my main takeaway was I was so impressed by this woman and her capability of just providing empathy to people who. I mean, after you read this, you're like, I could see how anyone, even myself, would throw in the towel in a relationship like this, in a dynamic like this, and being like, I just. I can't do it anymore. And she's just so almost relentless in the amount of grace that she gives to these individuals. And I know they're her parents, and the relationship is really difficult to put into a singular box of, like, oh, that's done. But it's just. I was just so wildly impressed with her.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Al]

And that's kind of why, the reason I know a lot of people know Chris's story, or a lot of it, but not a lot of people know not only the background of that chapter of his story, but Karine's story. And so I just, oh, my God, hers is just incredible.

[Kat]

Yeah. And to be able to see different perspectives of someone. And going back to something you just said about her mom, where at first Chris empathized with her and saw her as a victim, and then later saw her as an enabler, I think that that can be true of both things. You can be a victim and you can be an enabler. And to be able to show both sides of that, to be like, yes, they are abused and they're a victim, but also there's this other side where they're also enabling this behavior, but they're still a victim. And it's like, it's not a black and white scenario. It's like, right, there's a lot of. There's a lot of really hard stuff going on here. And it's people responding to a bad situation and surviving a bad situation, which can be really ugly at times and can be really difficult at times.

[Al]

Yeah. And so while Karine is feeling all of this and kind of, you know, she's writing this, of course, also as an adult, you know, with a lot of time to reflect on certain things. But in the moment, you know, Chris was losing hope in the future of having any sort of semblance of a normal relationship with his parents. He's kind of like, seen enough, experienced enough that he had had enough. And that's totally fair to feel.

[Kat]

Yeah, totally. And once you get older, too, and you're in these positions where you can leave the home, it's like sometimes your own peace is the most important. And if you've been in a very abusive household, sometimes it's just time to go.

[Al]

M.

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[Al]

In the late 80s, the McCandless family was living in Virginia outside of Washington, D.C. throughout high school, Chris and Karine maintained a close bond, keeping their very difficult home life a secret from their friends. Chris had excelled academically and could play the guitar, piano, and French horn. Karine was smart and played the French horn too. Joking. It was the one thing that she was better at than Chris, which led him to quit the band. Really? You gotta have some sibling rivalry, you know.

[Kat]

Reminds me of me and Al the other day. He's better at like everything than me except for downhill skiing. Oh. And we were.

[Al]

He.

[Kat]

We splitboard and we had to do a lot of downhill split boarding. And it was so funny because I'm a lot better at it than him and it's the only thing I'm physically better at than him. And I was giving him a lot of. And it just reminded me of that and it makes him not wanna.

[Al]

I was gonna.

[Kat]

He's like, stop looking at me.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Every time he goes downhill, I stop and I watch him and he's like, can you stop watching me? Like, it's so funny.

[Al]

Like, sorry. I'm just so much better. Yeah. Karine really admired her brother saying, quote, I never felt the need to compete with Chris. I just wanted to be like him. She's very sweet.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Al]

By all accounts, they were each normal, high achieving high schoolers. Chris was captain of the cross country team and Karine ran track. Chris started a neighborhood copy business and worked hard enough to buy a car. Karine, who loved cars, started restoring a 1969 Corvette Stingray with her high school boyfriend. Chris had a serious girlfriend for a period of time as well. They went to prom and talked about the lives ahead of them. He encouraged her to read Call of the Wild by Jack London and dreamt of going to Alaska together. Green says that he loved her. Maybe it was his earnestness or how seriously he was thinking of their future. But soon enough, she broke up with him, as high schoolers tend to do. But it was a, you know, kind of like heart first heartbreak type of thing.

[Kat]

Yeah. Always hurts.

[Al]

As Chris reached closer and closer to graduation, Karine was brushing their family dog in her front yard when one of Chris's classmates came by to talk. She had driven Chris to school that morning because his car wouldn't start. But she wanted to talk to Karine because at some point on that ride, after she'd been talking about graduation, summer plans, and college, Chris started to cry. He looked back at the girl and said he felt guilty about leaving Karine behind, about leaving Karine alone with them. What was that all about? The girl asked Karine. Who is them? Sheepishly, Karine dodged the question, suggesting he was just emotional about his broken down car and all the big changes that were coming up. But truthfully, she knew all too well what Chris had meant. Now that they were both in high school, they were fast enough that their father could no longer catch them and too strong to be forced over his knee. As a result, physical abuse usually took a backseat to verbal abuse, though not always. Chris was accepted to Emerson University in Atlanta, where he had planned to attend college, and as he neared graduation, he eagerly planned a summer road trip, his first big solo adventure. There was just one problem. He didn't have an itinerary, and at this his dad, Walt, was outraged. He demanded that Chris submit his travel plans well in advance for his approval. They argued back and forth about it, Chris, craving spontaneity amidst a highly structured life, and Walt, in Karine's telling, demanded control. Chris ultimately replied, if I made you a list, it would have been a fake one just to appease you, and you wouldn't have known any better. I'd simply throw it out the minute I walked out the door. Chris had won the argument and started to walk away. Wordlessly, Walt leapt forward, arm coiled behind him, and punched Chris square in the spine, trying to lay him out on the ground. Instead, Chris simply stopped, unmoved, turned to glance at his father in disgust, and walked away. By August of that year, after a long and spontaneous road trip, Chris began college. After Chris left for school, Karine remembered the house feeling empty without him, and her parents usual state of dysfunction and abuse seemed to settle into a tenuous piece. Her success in school, enrolled in a gifted program and earning awards in marching band as a drum major led her to believe that she was earning the approval of her parents. You know, she's like doing everything right, checking all the boxes. She'd hoped she was stabilizing a relationship that had been volatile her whole life, even complimenting her father's apparent success at controlling his temper. Like, this is a young woman congratulating her adult father on being cool and calm and not lashing out and being abusive like positive reinforcement, like, you're doing so good.

[Kat]

Yeah, that's. It's a really sad dynamic to have to be a part of.

[Al]

Unfortunately, that piece was short lived. After a difficult calculus class turned up a failing grade. Something super rare for Karine. Karine's parent tore into her, leading to a vicious cycle of more stress, leading to even worse grades. For the first time, her face broke out in acne and her parents swiftly accused her of being on drugs.

[Kat]

A teenage girl with acne, and you're.

[Al]

On drugs and it's like your body is stressed the hell out, you know, with all that and your hormones are.

[Kat]

Crazy, you're going through puberty.

[Al]

But that's just an example of her parents, like just exacerbating a situation, making it so much worse and blaming and, you know, just.

[Kat]

Yeah, so they're just unwell. That's the way to put it.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Al]

One day she returned home to see her room completely torn up. Clearly someone had gone through it, ransacked it. Her drawers were emptied onto the ground and her band trophies were shattered. Billie said that she had to go through her room like that to find where Corinne was hiding all of her drugs.

[Kat]

All because she got acne.

[Al]

Yeah. She's like, something's going on. You're on drugs. Where are they?

[Kat]

I remember I had a really bad acne breakout in school and I pretended I was sick because I was so embarrassed.

[Al]

Oh, so you didn't have to go to school?

[Kat]

Yeah, but no one thought I was on drugs. I just pretended I was sick. I have the flu and I just like waited for it to clear up a little bit.

[Al]

I did that with one time I went because I was. Unfortunately, I had a tanning face. As many of us.

[Kat]

I went tanning to help my acne.

[Al]

Oh my God.

[Kat]

My days off.

[Al]

I know.

[Kat]

So instead of going to school, I went tanning each day because I thought it would help my acne.

[Al]

You're going to. You go back to school, people are like, you had the flu and now you're back as like a bronzed babe. What's going on?

[Kat]

Like, what happened to you?

[Al]

Yeah, one time I went for whatever the max time was, like 12 minutes or whatever on the highest bed, like the, the most intense bed. I'm like, I'm Italian, I can handle that. I'm like 17 years old. Haven't been in the sun in forever. I'm in New Hampshire in the dead of winter. I think I can just do this. And I go. And I got so I didn't peel or anything. But I got for me, really, really, really burnt. And I remember just waking up the next day being like, I can't. I can't show up to school like this. And I asked my mom. I was like almost in tears. And I remember her being not. She wasn't super mad, but she was really stern. And she was like, this is the first and only time that this is allowed to happen. If you do this again, you're going like, she gave me the grace of this one time of like, I will.

[Kat]

Learn your lesson this time and we'll call it good.

[Al]

Yeah. But she was mad. She's really mad. Well, finally, the week of Karine's high school graduation, she arrived home right at curfew after a date, attempting to gently open the front door to avoid raising attention that she was home. But before she could unlock the door, Walt ripped it open. Wearing a strong scent of gin, he grabbed Karine by her the neck and shoulders, lifting her off the ground, off of her feet, and repeatedly slamming her into the wall. She remembers crying out, you don't do this anymore, dad. Remember? Stop. You don't want to do this. You are doing so well. Stop. He let out a roar, pinned Karine to the couch and choked her. This is your fault. He accused. Look what you're making me do. Only after managing to kick him in the groin could she escape, fleeing into her room and placing a frantic call to her mother, who was staying in their second home. As she explained what had happened, Walt picked up another line and drunkenly stumbled through a pitiful excuse and riddled off lots of denials, waiting for her mom to answer, to come to her defense. Billy responded, you know what, Karine? I think you're a lying. As soon as she turned 18, Karine moved out on her own. In her book, Karine shares many, many more examples of horrifying physical abuse. But this is the last one that I'm going to share in the episode because I think it establishes pretty well the extent of the behavior her parents were exhibiting, the cycle of this, like, calm and then violent outburst that she and Chris experienced growing up. And yes, you've painted a picture of.

[Kat]

What'S happening for sure.

[Al]

And of course, like I said before, Karine so impressed with her. Despite all of this, years and years, she still wanted to break the cycle and have the best type of relationship she could with her family and her parents. But at this point, you know, Chris is out. He wants no part of it. He's kind of made up his mind.

[Kat]

Which is totally fair.

[Al]

While Chris was in college, he was largely absent from family life back home. Although he and Karine exchanged letters, they were one another's confidants when it came to their family life, the only ones who could understand what they had gone through. In letters, Chris shared the full extent of their father's double life with Karine, the whole truth of their half siblings. Stating it made his whole childhood feel like fiction. He admitted that he felt like his life really began after he had left home and got to experience the world outside of their parents dysfunction. Karine turned to Kris about her own life. She had gotten married, only to discover that her new husband was abusive. Determined not to follow her mother's path, she swiftly got divorced. Chris wrote back to express how proud he was of her and encouraged her to learn from her mistakes and be true to herself. Finally, Chris told Corinne of a plan to, quote, unquote, divorce his parents. He'd written them a lengthy letter detailing all of the trauma and abuse that they had doled out over the years and the extent of the damage their behavior had on both him and Karine. It's all in the memoir and stuff, but I just wanted to pull a short snippet of that letter that Chris wrote to Karine. And it says, referring to him, you know, reaching out to his parents and saying all this. This was about four weeks ago. I felt for sure that the letter would finally shake them into some kind of reality. And then just a few days ago, I get this stupid postcard from Colorado where they are off skiing. And all it says in reference to my letter is this, thanks for your letter. Saving them for your children to read one day. Can you believe that? They just completely ignored everything I said. Since they won't ever take me seriously, I'm just going to play along with their little acting game. I'm going to let them think that our relationship is stabilizing. And then once the time is right, with one abrupt, swift action, I'm going to completely knock them out of my life. I'll be through with them once and all, forever. Shortly after that letter, Karine and her parents drove down to Atlanta for Chris's college graduation. After the ceremony, they got dinner. And it was the last time Karine would see or hear from her brother ever again. After graduating, Chris donated his college fund to Fight Hunger and drove west. He drove. He literally signed over over $24,000 to a charity that fights Hunger. It was every. Pretty much everything he had. And if you've seen the movie, you see that he burns the rest of his cash, which he also did. When his car stopped working outside of Lake Mead in Nevada, he abandoned it. He set fire to his remaining cash, adopted a new name, Alexander Supertramp and set out on the road. He quickly found what he was looking for. An adventure of self reliance with no itinerary. Traveling wherever he felt like, in no particular order, he hitchhiked and hopped freight trains across California, coastal Washington, Montana, South Dakota and Arizona. He camped out under the stars, climbed mountains and read books including Jack London's Call of the Wild, Memoirs of Western Authors and Leon Tolstoy's War and Peace. In these pages he highlighted passages to speak to the necessity of solitude and the joys of nature. In his copy of Henry David Thoreau's Walden, he highlighted the sentence, rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth. He bought a small metal canoe and paddled the Colorado river south of the Grand Canyon in a month long journey that involved sneaking across the Mexico border and navigating a maze of irrigation canals. He eventually made it Pacific Ocean. He lived modestly, carrying only what he needed, eating only rice that he brought and what fish he could catch. That's not to say his journey was purely a nature filled getaway with sunshine and rainbows. He often lived rough, sometimes sleeping in missions and homeless shelters and got arrested for sneaking into a freight train. He took odd jobs to make a modest income, flipping burgers at a Nevada McDonald's and working as a farmhand in South Dakota. But wherever he went, he always dreamed of Alaska. In into the Wild, Jon Krakauer tells Chris's story partly through his journal entries and letters that he sent. But mostly Krakauer follows Chris through the people that he met along the way. In California, Chris met Jan Baress, a fellow drifter and traveling merchant who took the boy under her wing, forming an almost maternal bond. Wayne Westerberg, AKA Vince Vaughn, an industrious South Dakota farmer and mechanic, hired Chris to work for him on a grain elevator. And then Ron Franz, who also, by the way, if you have ever seen Water for Elephants, that movie, which you probably have not, but first I've heard.

[Kat]

Of it, but I haven't seen it, okay?

[Al]

It's one of my favorite movies also because it's one of my favorite books. But the older gentleman that plays older Robin, Robert Pattinson in that is plays this guy. Ron Franz, an 80 year old widower and military vet, taught Chris his craft of leather. Working under the name Alex, Chris formed deep short lived relationships with these three people. In Chris, Jan found a thoughtful young man who reminded her of her own estranged son. For two years, wherever he was, Chris would send Jan letters for Wayne. Alex was an incredibly hard worker and loyal friend. Some nights they'd go out to bars and over beers, Chris implored Wayne to read Tolstoy's War and Peace. But of all the people that Chris met on the road, he likely left the largest impression on Ron. Chris had encouraged the 80 year old to shake out of his routines, adopt a nomadic lifestyle and travel advice that Ron acted on. In the following months, he sold his things and set out to live in a converted van. With all of these friends, Chris dodged each question that they raised about his family and what he was running from. When he talked at length about his upcoming trip to live off of the land in Alaska, he would also dismiss the concerns that they raised about this plan. Jan, Wayne and Ron each pressed him to be more careful, trying to prepare him with better supplies, warmer clothes, or advice on hunting and dressing wild game. As evidence of the mark he'd left on people, Ron even offered to adopt him as his grandson, an offer Chris suggested that they would discuss after he returned from his trip to Alaska. The last person to meet Chris was an Alaskan electrician named Jim Galen. Chris was hitchhiking to the doorstep of Denali national park, where he planned to live and hunt for the next few months. Jim picked him up outside of Fairbanks on a cool April day, snow still on the ground. Noticing Chris's relatively small pack, Jim tried and failed to convince McCandless to bring more equipment, arguing that he would need more food or that he should wait until the snow melted a bit more to start his voyage. Chris dismissed each of his concerns, each of his points, replying that on a canoe trip once to Mexico, he'd survived for over a month on a five pound bag of rice and whatever fish that he was able to pull from the sea. He was making this journey because it was hard. He knew the risks and wanted to test himself. Finally arriving at the trailhead, Jim managed to convince Chris to accept a pair of waterproof rubber boots, telling the boy that he could return the boots if he made it out alive. Jim snapped a photo of Chris smiling at the trailhead with his backpack, and he walked off into the snowy valley ahead. It was the last anyone would ever see of Chris alive. Four months later, a group of hunters found his body next to a handwritten note that read, I have had a happy life and thank the Lord, Goodbye and may God bless all. He had been dead for almost three weeks, lying In a sleeping bag in a remote abandoned bus. While it was hard to say what exactly had happened, he appeared to have starved to death. At the time of his autopsy, his remains weighed just 67 pounds. Wow.

[Kat]

Yeah, yeah.

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[Kat]

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Whatever you're doing in the kitchen, they can handle it.

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[Al]

In the years since Kris disappeared, Karine had started a successful business with her fiance, an auto shop, building a future on her love of cars. After Chris went missing, their parents grew panicked, even going so far as to hire a private investigator to track him down. All to no avail. Karine missed Kris terribly. While she understood why he left, she'd been delaying her wedding until Chris could walk her down the aisle. She wondered about him and wished that he would send a letter. But she always believed that he would come back eventually. But of course, he never did. When she heard the news of Chris's death, denial and disbelief gave way to a searing, indescribable grief. At just 21 years old, she had lost the person she most looked up to. The person she could tell anything to the person she loved the most in the entire world and who loved her most in return. Her brother was gone. After hours, unable to move from grief, she finally went back home. The loss weighed heavily on her parents, too. Billy stopped eating. Walt ate compulsively. It seemed for a time that their grieving son might be a path towards reconciling with their remaining children. At least that's what Corinne had hoped. Soon, the family heard from the writer and author John Krakauer. His Outside magazine article had generated a tidal wave of interest, and with the family's permission, he was hoping to turn Chris's story into a book to chase down leads of where he had traveled during his last two years and unravel the cause of his death. And to answer a question many readers were asking why it was that Chris decided to leave in the first place. Karine, for her part, doubted that the story would find a larger audience beyond, beyond outside magazines like Niche, you know, this. This outdoor community. Like, this is a huge story in the outdoor world, but beyond that, you know, she's like.

[Kat]

She didn't think it was gonna get that much traction.

[Al]

Yeah, she's like, chris is not this huge public figure that something crazy happened to. You know, he's just my brother, you know?

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Al]

She had no idea. And, of course, he also was an insanely private person in life as well, so a book about him might only serve to mock, exploit, or dishonor Chris's memory. And that was kind of everyone's reservations at first, but especially Korine's. After meeting with Jon Krakauer, Korine was immediately put at ease. Krakauer was not yet a widely known author, but in conversations, he expressed a deep, genuine, and empathetic interest in her brother. And. And because of that, she agreed to share what she could. She spoke with John in multiple interviews, shared her collection of letters, and spoke pretty candidly about the reasons Kris had for leaving. But when the subject of abuse came up and her father's infidelity, Karine asked for John to leave those details off of the record. She still hoped that this loss might spur her parents to change, to grow. And airing the family's dirty laundry would only hurt that chance. Jon respected Karine's every wish and excluded it from the book. Karine held great sympathy for her parents losing their child, and she had hoped that this loss would force them to reckon with the reasons Chris had for leaving. To address the content of the letter he'd sent them detailing the harms of their abuse. A letter they had casually dismissed years earlier. Unfortunately, as into the Wild became a bestseller, the exact opposite happened. They began to embrace the role of martyrs and relished in the outpouring of sympathy that they received from around the world. Celebrating notes like my son was selfish too. How sad that yours didn't live long enough to grow out of this teenage rebellion. They denied any knowledge of why Chris might have left or why he was so angry with them. Weaponizing Chris's goodbye note to claim that he had had a happy childhood. You know, the one that they found like his final, final note that he wrote in the bus, um, they kind of pointed to that like, see, he was happy, like he had a great life. He had a great life. When Karine confronted them about their sterilized blame free version of things, Billy responded. Don't you remember the goodbye note? Chris wrote? He admitted to God that his life was happy. He had nothing to complain about. In addition, they announced that they were born again Christians and that their pasts had been wiped clean. In regards to that, in her memoir, Karine said this. It revolted me to see them use religion as a pardon for their crimes and to know that I had allowed the opportunity for them to use John's book as their new bible. If it wasn't in there, it didn't happen. I was disgusted at the ease with which they exploited Chris's incomplete story in an attempt to rewrite their own. You're so wrong to use God in this way, I cautioned them. Chris said in his last letters to me that his life began during college after he left the two of you behind. That is his life he was talking about. You know that's true. He said he told you that himself and I don't know how you can claim otherwise. In response, Billy laughed. God will punish you for not honoring your father and mother. Corinne. Don't you remember his commandment? I feel sorry for you because you will not get to join Kris and us in heaven. Karine began to feel like she'd made a mistake in asking John to exclude the details of her parents abuse. Because without those details, they were free to tell whatever version of the story that they wished. Painting themselves as saints who had been wronged, Krakauer hints at the truth in his book. So if you have freshly read this, I mean, like me, because I just, you know, this is fresh on my mind. But it might be something that if you read it years ago or even watched the movie years ago, you're like, oh yeah, maybe. But it's so apparent to me, because it's, like, so immediate. But he does hint at the truth throughout. You know, the book in the movie, but of course doesn't say it explicitly. People like Wayne and Ron share that they could tell Chris or Alex, as they knew him, had an estranged relationship with his parents, even if he refused to talk directly about it. Rereading into the Wild after learning the truth also helps you to notice how Krakauer characterizes Walt and Billy. He always treats them with compassion in his telling. As, you know, parents who had lost their son. They're going through something really difficult and traumatic and awful. But their words hint at their priorities. The first words Krakauer shares from Walt after learning of his son's death was, how is it that a kid with so much compassion could cause his parents so much pain? So very selective, putting blame on him.

[Kat]

Yeah, yeah. Like, how can you do this to their mindset? Not worried about your son who just was found dead? It's like, I can't believe he would do that to me. Yeah.

[Al]

When it was time to spread Chris's ashes, Karine's parents organized a trip on their new boat out into the Chesapeake Bay to distribute them there. Confused about this decision, Karine asked, mom, I don't understand why we're spreading Chris's ashes in the bay. When he mentioned so often that he was afraid of being in deep water, Billy replied, this isn't about Chris. We live on the bay. We sail on it almost every day now. And this way we'll feel closer to him. Like another example of being.

[Kat]

This isn't about Chris.

[Al]

Right.

[Kat]

It's literally his remains.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Kat]

It couldn't be less about him. It is all about him in that moment.

[Al]

Many years later, her parents established a memorial foundation in Chris's name. And they directed the foundation attorney to send Karine a threatening legal demand to turn over anything she owned that at one time belonged to Chris, threatening as a consequence, to disinherit her if she did not. It's like, again, like, I can't stress this enough the. How impressed I am with her after. It's just one. Even one of these things would be enough, and I would totally understand just wanting to separate yourself from this. But she doesn't, which is, I think, very evolved in a lot of ways and takes a lot of guts, which I don't know if I would have. While Walt and Billy were attempting to control Chris's story, Karine sought to see more of it for herself. She traveled to South Dakota to meet with Wayne, the handyman who had hired Chris to work on his grain elevator. She traveled to meet Ron, the 80 year old widower who had taken Chris's advice to live on the road. Each of them shared stories of the young boy who they had known as Alex. They took her to places that they had gone with her brother and shared in Karine's grief and his loss. After learning of Chris's death, Ron, who had been a devout Christian, renounced God and became an atheist. Before he found out, Ron was camping in his van in the desert in the same spot where he had first met Chris, hoping to see the young boy when he came back. During Karine's visit, they built a campfire and marveled at the stars in the vast desert. Karine shared more details about her brother, who Ron had so come to admire. And she shared with him Chris's many reasons for leaving home. Ron complimented Crisp for being a fine young man, thanked Karine for sharing what she knew, and promised to keep that history safe. It was a small comfort amidst her grief, but Karine got to see the enormous impact her brother had on other people. And it helped her to see why his story had become so popular. In the years after Chris's death, Karine started a life of her own. While she longed for a meaningful relationship with her parents, she had begun to keep them at an arm's length. She became a stepmom, then a mother, and named her daughter Christiana. She also grew closer with her half siblings, the daughters of Marsha who she did she grew up not really knowing much of her sisters Shelly and Shawna lived in Colorado and were also growing weary of Walt and Billy's public lies and whitewashing of their parental record. Because remember, they too experienced abuse with Walt. And I mean their mother Marcia, of course, course was the victim of that as well. So they experienced their share. And while they weren't super close with Chris, they, you know, it's family and they see what's happening. Over a decade after Chris's death, Karine arranged for a family dinner at a time when they all happened to be in Colorado. She and her sisters sat down with Walt and Billy with the goal of talking things out, addressing their mistruths. The parents were spreading about Chris and their own childhoods. Karine harbored no illusions that this meeting would magically change everything. She knew well and good that this wasn't going to be like a come to Jesus moment. It was just kind of like it needs to happen and we need to put it out on, on the table together as like this united front and just at least get it out there. Yeah, because she had tried this in the past in different ways, and of course it didn't work. But she still held on to that hope that it would improve their relationship and or at the very least, prevent things from getting any worse than as they were kind of heading in that direction. After some appetizers and small talk, Karine began to voice all of their concerns. Kind of was the voice box for them. Pulling out a list that she had made of the many times Walt and Billy had publicly rewritten their family history through talks and interviews and quotes. Like, she came with receipts, you know, she was ready for this. And this is a quote. Instead of putting out all this nonsense about what a perfect childhood Chris had, all we're asking is that you not say anything at all. It's terribly sad that you lost your son. Sympathy for you is fair and automatic. Why can't you two just accept that? Instead of lying, Billy pretended to have no clue what Karine was talking about at all. So Karine showed her the list directly, conveniently shifting the birth order of Chris and Karine to hide that Walt was impregnating two women at once. Misleading pictures of smiley, happy wives and kids that were being beaten at home. Billy replied, I don't really see a problem. Then she tried to deflect, looking to Shawna and Shelly, saying, do you know that Karine has made a lot of money from all of this into the wild stuff? Quickly shutting that down, Shawna jumped in, yes, actually, she shared some of it with us and told us to consider it a gift from Chris. It paid for my daughter's braces. After that tactic didn't work, Billie tried another. Oh, Karine, isn't it you who's making up false family scenarios just to get attention? You're not as smart as you think you are. Besides, when I met him, your father had his own apartment and lots of girlfriends. Shelly, who was sitting to Karine's left, had finally had enough. Walking right over to Billy, speaking loudly, with no fucks given about where she was or if other people were looking at them, she declared, you started your affair with my dad when my mom was pregnant with me. You have insisted on telling lie upon lie. And at some point, it has got to stop. Walt, all the while looking completely unfazed, just eating his dinner.

[Kat]

He's like, this is none of my.

[Al]

Business, none of my business. And yet he's the common dominator of all of it. He's like, yeah, this has nothing to do with me confident that this plan was going nowhere, the sisters hurriedly cleaned their plates and drove off. The truth is, we're simplifying the timeline that Corrine lays out in her book and her capacity for forgiveness. She has been extremely gracious, patient and kind when it comes to her parents over the many years, meeting their malice with empathy and their selfishness with grace. A capacity for hope amidst constant abuse, manipulation and threats. Hope that their family's future could escape its past. We only have time, of course, in one episode to share. Just like a fraction of the times that Karine tried to mend these fences and her parents just kicked him right on down every single time. Chris gave up hope that Walt and Billy could change when he was in college. He said as much in the letters that he sent to Karine outlining his plans to divorce his parents. But Karine never lost her empathy. But eventually she grew tired of hiding the truth.

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[Al]

Around 2005, Jon Krakauer and actor director Sean Penn came to meet with her. Penn was interested in developing the book into the Wild into a movie. And he was, of course, like so many of us, really moved by Chris's life and his story. And he really wanted to bring an already sensational book into an even wider audience through film. Krakauer was adamant that Korine's perspective was crucial to the story, and Korine sought this as her opportunity to share some of the truth she once asked Krakauer to exclude, truth that could help audiences see a more honest version of her brother and prevent her parents from perpetuating their false narratives. She still harbored guilt in the role that she played in allowing misconceptions about Chris to form in the first place, with many readers labeling him as mentally ill or suicidal. So she agreed, and the movie was made here it is. Released in 2007. I knew that There it is all along. Released in 2007, the movie shares a condensed version of Chris's adventure set to an iconic soundtrack by Pearl Jam frontman Eddie Vedder. Heartfelt performances bring Chris to life, along with the friends that he met along the way. Jan, Wayne and Ron. It was widely celebrated, in no small part thanks to Karine. Throughout the film's production, Karine served as a direct consultant. She shared all of her letters from Chris. And while she did not seek to vilify her parents, she worked to add crucial context to the film that was absent from the book. Like, this was her opportunity to right the wrong and be like, okay, let's be a little bit more accurate about what was happening.

[Kat]

Let's fill in these question marks that people have been making their own assumptions about.

[Al]

Yep. She collaborated with Sean Penn and the poet Sharon Olds on the script, working to bring an honest version of her brother to the screen. And by the time there was a finished script, Sean Penn revealed he'd made her the narrator of the film. Or rather, a young actress playing Karine was narrating the film. So it is through Karine's voice and perspective. Oh, cool.

[Kat]

I didn't. I remember that in the movie, but I didn't know. I didn't know what a role she actually played.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Kat]

In making the movie.

[Al]

Yep, same. As a result, the movie offers more answers as to why Chris left home the way that he did. Even still, it casts Chris's rebellion as a reaction to the news of his parents infidelity, that his anger with his parents was fueled largely by the discovery that he and Karine were illegitimate bastard children. There's actually a scene in the movie of Walt tossing Billy around, alluding to the violence that the kid witnessed at home. But it never shows that Chris or Karine experienced that firsthand. So again, it's like it's in there, but it's not super explicit.

[Kat]

It's not the full story.

[Al]

Right after the movie and two decades after Chris's death, Karine arrived at the same conclusion he once did to cut ties with their parents. After becoming a mother, Karine could no longer tolerate her parents cruelty, threats and abuse. Rather than cling to the hopeless belief that her parents would eventually change, she would focus on the next generation and simply air the complete truth that Walton Billy so desperately tried to rewrite. In 2014, she published her memoir, the Wild Truth. John Krakauer wrote the forward to that book. After the book came out, an outside magazine writer interviewed Karine about the book. And in it he essentially asks if she blames her parents for Chris winding up dead. It's like pretty. It's a pretty big question that I think everyone is now asking after reading her her book and getting a more complete version of the story. And this is her response. I think Chris would have been an adventurer and drawn to nature no matter what. I think it was just innate. Chris was a smart and reasonable young man, but he was also a young man because of Chris's childhood. He felt this need to push himself to extremes and prove something. Chris believed firmly that if you knew exactly how the adventure was going to turn out, it wasn't really an adventure. He understood the risks he was taking and they were calculated and there was a reason for it. People ask me all the time if I blame Walt and Billy for Chris's death. I do not. Chris made certain decisions and placed himself in that perilous situation. He also accepted responsibility for his mistakes and accepted his fate bravely at the end. I do, however, hold Walt and Billy accountable for Chris's disappearance and for us not knowing where he was. That was absolutely related to his feeling a need to escape and disconnect. After into the Wild came out. People were drawn to Chris's story and in some cases a little too much. Two visitors died trying to retrace his footsteps in Alaska, each drowning while trying to cross the Teclanika River. The bus that Chris died in had begun attracting enough unprepared adventure seekers that when Cassie was there that one time it was relocated to a museum for public safety. Although not before Karine got to visit herself. The book was widely taught in schools across the country. And many of those schools approached Karine, inviting her to speak to their students at high schools and colleges. She fielded questions from kids eager to understand what drove Chris. And she thought of advice he would often give to her. To learn from your mistakes and to be truthful. She answered the kids honestly, telling of Kris's ambitious personality, but also of their home life, imperfections and all. She speaks with an honesty that soothes the guilt she carried for hiding the truth for a long time. And while she's no longer speaking to them, she stubbornly hopes this truth can bring her parents some relief. No longer having to wear their masks of deceit, many of the students identify with the adventure in this story, with Chris's passionate ideologies or rebellious spirit. But after each lecture ends, after the auditorium empties, at least one student stays behind, quietly sharing with Karine that they're dealing with the same thing at home, and that through Chris and Karine's story, they don't feel quite as alone. And that is the story of Chris and Karine McCandless and into the wild.

[Kat]

A long time coming. And I'm so glad that you covered it from her perspective, because, like you mentioned a lot throughout this episode is that the book and the movie are so wildly popular and we're so familiar with that perspective. To really dive into why he was out there in the first place, I think is a question that has been on everyone's mind of how you get to the point where you want to live like that. But also, of course, I think, why you also mentioned we all resonate with him so much as we all feel a little bit of ourselves in him. It's like, what would it be like.

[Sponsor Voice]

To just go off the grid and.

[Kat]

Explore and not have to worry about the daily stresses in life and just.

[Sponsor Voice]

Go out and not have to think.

[Kat]

About money, burn my money, throw away my car, and, like, how far would I get? Kind of. Kind of a romanticized version of doing that. So I think that it was really interesting perspective to hear and one that I hadn't heard. And I just. I never knew how much his sister was involved.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Kat]

With the story.

[Al]

Same. And I think also there's something to appreciate about this angle because we tell Chris's story over and over. Like, not just Chris, but even in our episodes, we always tell from the perspective of the main person in the story. And a lot of times it ends up in their death and that we kind of just tell their adventure and then their end and. But we never really talk about the other people that are involved and those who are left behind and just how their story or their physical life may have ended but their story isn't over and how that kind of translate into other people's lives. And I don't know, I just think that it's just so interesting. I didn't know everything that went into or did not go into the version of events of how the story came out into the public. And I think that Karine is extremely brave and for her to just like stand up and tell the truth and it. That's no small thing, you know, especially in such a public. Yeah. I mean every. All eyes on you. And then you have people at home who, despite your difficult relationship, you still love and are trying to repair a relationship while also like, hey, you did some shitty things and everyone should know, you know, that's a tough place to be in. And I didn't even get into like all the things that she was dealing with from her first marriage and that, like the abuse that she, you know, endured and her life unfolding at the same time that they have no idea where Chris is, you know, when he's off being Alex and her and her parents are like, where is he? What's going on? You know, the grief and struggle of that to when she actually finds out he's deceased. And all those years after it before into the Wild comes out, you know, she went through a lot.

[Kat]

Yeah. It feels like in diving into this, she wasn't just unearthing and airing out like all of her own trauma, but she was also had to relive it, to write this and to speak on it. And also at the same time she is telling her truth and what has happened to her. And she has her parents who are adamantly denying everything that she's saying. So you're kind of, not only are you reliving your own trauma, but you're also being re traumatized because of the fight. You have to have to just say your own truth.

[Al]

Yeah, yeah. So highly recommend her book. And I know I didn't really talk about Chris's, you know, version of events and his perspective of the story, but I felt like I didn't need to. And just because I kind of assume that you all know his story and if you don't. I think I was thinking about this right before we got into the recording of like order in which people having the book, the movie and Korine's book, like, what should you do? Like what order? And I think you should read into the Wild. Read Corrine's book, the Wild Truth, and then watch the movie.

[Kat]

That seems like a fair order.

[Al]

In that order.

[Kat]

That's your homework, everybody. For this episode, you have two books you must read and a movie you must watch. And then please come back to us with a two page book report.

[Al]

Yes. Due Monday, but also Corinne's book. So I listened to the audiobook for half of it. What is that called? We talk about in book club a lot when you, like, read, but also listen at the same time.

[Kat]

There's a name for that.

[Al]

Yeah, there is. People say it a lot. Whatever I did that, whatever that's called.

[Kat]

Tandem, maybe. I don't know.

[Al]

Well, either way, that's what I did for Koreans. And she voices her audiobook, so to hear from her directly is also an experience. So, yeah, I hope I did it justice. And you are inspired to. Because if you're like, either of us, we haven't watched that for what, like, 15, 20 years?

[Kat]

Yeah, it's been a while.

[Al]

So.

[Kat]

Yeah.

[Al]

Yeah. Movie night. There you go.

[Kat]

Also, fun fact is, I was thinking about this, and I actually tried to look it up. So the book or the book. The bus that he was in was moved. And you said it's in a museum now. But they do have a replica that people take photos of.

[Al]

Yes, they do.

[Kat]

I don't know where it is, though. I've been there. Which is funny. I just can't remember where it is. So you'll have to look it up yourselves.

[Al]

It reminded me of the whole. I mean, not exactly, but the Force Fen thing of people, like, dying trying.

[Kat]

It's outside of. Oh, sorry. I was just gonna say it's at the 49th State Brewing Company near Denali National Park.

[Al]

Ah, Cassie, don't even say that. That's where we had our welcome dinner for our Alaska trip. I have a sticker. The 49th Brewing Company.

[Kat]

No, the 49th Brewing Company is across from the entrance of Denali.

[Al]

I swear to God. There's one in Anchorage.

[Kat]

Yeah, we were in Anchorage, but this is, like, across from the entrance of Denali because I've been to it before. Yeah, it's like, four hours away from.

[Al]

Well, that location maybe. Because if they have more than one location.

[Kat]

Maybe if they have more than one location, but this one is.

[Al]

Okay. I'm like, wait, why is the bus at the brewing company in Anchorage? Yeah, no, we did have our welcome dinner there. I had a yak burger I'll never forget, because I'm like, I want to try it, and I'm like, ew. I don't know if I like this.

[Kat]

I think I got pretzels. Like, you know the pretzels and cheese.

[Al]

That sounds like you. You love a snack.

[Kat]

I love something about, like the prep warm pretzels with, like, the mustard and cheese to dip in. I just. With the giant salt.

[Al]

See, I so good get. I take the salt off.

[Kat]

I like just a little bit. If they put too much, I wipe it off. But if it's just like a couple little sprinkles, I like it.

[Al]

Yeah, too. Sometimes they go way overboard. But then if you don't have salt, then you just have bread. Yeah.

[Kat]

And it's not a piece of salt, but I feel like restaurants do it well, but if you're at a carnival, they do it really bad.

[Al]

Oh, they don't care. No, they don't care. It's all sitting in salt. Yeah.

[Kat]

You might as well just eat a bar of salt.

[Al]

Yeah. Okay, great. Well, if any of you have a picture with the replica, we would love to see it.

[Kat]

I think I have one, but it's on an old phone somewhere. Yeah, I've been there before and I took a photo with Al in 2020, something like that. But, well, I'd love to see it. So I don't know if I can find it. I'll try to find it, but I have a feeling I'm not going to be able to.

[Al]

Okay. Yeah. Or if by chance, you visited the actual bus before it was moved. Yeah. Would love to hear your experience with that or maybe how Chris's story impacted your life. Because Karine talks a lot about that and finding comfort and how his story positively influenced other people's lives or perspectives. So I would love to hear that too. You know, make it a trail tale. All right, everyone, well, we will see you next week. Thank you for being here. Please enjoy the view, but watch your back. See ya. Bye. Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear exclusive bonus stories, join us on Patreon or Apple Subscriptions. Patreon subscribers have access to our National Park After Dark book club, live streams, Discord and more. Much more. If you prefer to watch our episodes, video episodes are now available on YouTube. If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. And to follow along with all our adventures, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Tik Tok, and x NationalPark After Dark. Foreign.

[Julian Edelman]

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