Killed for a Kiss: Appalachian Trail

Summary

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National Park After Dark

Episode: Killed for a Kiss: Appalachian Trail

Release Date: March 9, 2026

Hosts: Danielle (A), Cassie (B)

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Episode Overview

In this deeply moving and infuriating episode, Danielle and Cassie recount the harrowing 1988 attack on Claudia Brenner and Rebecca White—two women in love, backpacking on the Appalachian Trail in Pennsylvania, who were targeted in a hate crime by drifter Steven Roy Carr. Through their lens of compassion and advocacy for public lands and victims, the hosts offer not just a chilling retelling of the crime, but also an exploration of the broader cultural currents of homophobia, violence, and the ongoing struggle for justice and recognition of LGBTQ+ lives. The story is entwined with the legislative aftermath—specifically, the push for federal hate crime statistics—and the way personal tragedy can motivate both survivors and lawmakers to action.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Statistics vs. Human Stories ([00:00])

• Danielle opens reflecting on the illusion of safety statistics, observing that while the Appalachian Trail is statistically very safe, numbers can dehumanize:

  “Each number has a face and a story, a family, a life damaged, a grieving process, nightmares that won’t go away, anger. And the incredible frustration of absolute injustice.” (Danielle, [00:36])

• The episode is dedicated to grounding the story in its humanity, focusing on Claudia and Rebecca.

2. Introducing Claudia & Rebecca: Love and Distance ([04:49])

• Claudia lived in Ithaca, NY; Rebecca in VA. They met halfway, arranging a secluded camping trip as a rare opportunity to spend time together pre-cell phone and internet.
• “You just know that at this point of time, they wrote love letters.” (Cassie, [05:14])
• Their relationship was characterized by long-distance longing, love letters, and the added complications of being queer in the 1980s.

3. The Morning of the Crime: Red Flags & Rationalization ([09:02])

• The women encounter a lone man at the Birch Run shelter. Unsettling behavior—exposed arousal, rifle visible—raises red flags, but they rationalize (as many women do, the hosts note) and decide to move campsites, trying to avoid him.
• Discussion on the ways women are conditioned to override intuition for politeness and safety.

  “It’s so ingrained in women…to give the benefit of the doubt.” (Cassie, [16:58])

• They notice the rifle but talk themselves into normal explanations—hunting, etc.—and decide to just keep away from him.

4. Attack on the Trail: Horror in Seclusion ([24:22])

• As they relax at their new mossy, idyllic campsite, they are ambushed by the same man, Steven Roy Carr, who opens fire with a rifle—eight shots in 30 seconds.
  • Claudia is hit five times (head, neck, arm), Rebecca twice.
  • Despite grievous injuries, both remain briefly alive and lucid; Rebecca’s quick thinking to “stop the bleeding” saves Claudia’s life.
• Claudia attempts to get help:

  “If she wanted to look left or right, she had to turn her entire body. As she climbed hills…her wounds on her neck gurgled as if air was coming out where it wasn’t supposed to.” (Danielle, [30:09])

5. The Ordeal of Survival & Seeking Help ([29:34]–[38:06])

• Claudia’s four-mile trek, losing blood the entire way, her struggle to attract a car on a remote road at night, and the excruciating experience of being passed by vehicles until a group of teenagers finally helps.
• Conversation about the dilemmas bystanders face in remote emergencies.

  “If I came across a bloody beaten person emerging from the woods…do I want to stop? Absolutely. Would I? I don’t know.” (Danielle, [36:16])

6. Aftermath: Hospitals, Coming Out, and the Fear of Homophobic Injustice ([39:30]–[47:00])

• Claudia is rushed through police/hospital/trauma care, all the while worrying whether coming out as gay will jeopardize her case.
• Context of 1980s America:
  • 24 states banned sodomy.
  • Prejudices against LGBTQ+ violence victims frequently affected investigations.
  • Conversion therapy, anti-gay laws discussed:

    “This isn’t just about that. This is about people hating other people who are different from them, and that’s the problem.” (Danielle, [88:09])

• With legal assistance, Claudia is advised to come out to investigators to maintain her credibility—she does so, and is met with support (unusual for that time and place).

7. The Hunt for the Killer: Carr’s Capture ([50:19]–[62:35])

• Police, helped by a composite sketch painstakingly crafted by Claudia and forensic artists, are led by an anonymous tip to Steven Roy Carr—a local outcast known to live in caves in Michaux State Forest.
• Carr, hiding in a Mennonite community, is turned in by a parishioner who broke with tradition and watched TV, recognizing him from the news.

8. Trial and Legal Defense: ‘Homosexual Panic’ and Victim-Blaming ([66:58]–[73:55])

• Carr’s defense is based on the ‘gay panic’ defense, attempting to shift blame to the victims by arguing that seeing two women in love drove him to homicidal rage.

  “If you are so repulsed by this, why did you pursue them for a better view before shooting them?” (Danielle, [73:55])

• The judge rejects the defense, ruling that sexual conduct cannot be used as legal provocation for murder. Carr accepts a plea deal for life without parole.

9. Media Portrayal: Sensationalizing and Misrepresenting LGBTQ+ Victims ([68:16])

• Coverage repeatedly frames the women as “deviant,” e.g., “Women Teased Me: Mountain Man Testifies.”
• Protests erupt; Claudia is urged by legal counsel not to participate publicly to avoid damaging the case.

10. Aftermath and Legacy: Healing, Activism, and the Personal to Political ([77:30]–[88:09])

• Claudia reflects on her survival, survivor’s guilt, trauma, and the privileges that allowed for her case to be treated seriously.
• She becomes a prominent activist, spearheading advocacy for hate crime legislation and testifying at the U.S. Senate.

  “If to further the goal of humanitarian response to violence against gays and lesbians, we need to compile statistics, then I, as a victim and as a statistic, stand in support of the proposed Hate Crime Statistics Act.” (Claudia, [79:17])

• Her story leads directly to the Hate Crime Statistics Act: the first federal legislation recognizing LGBTQ+ lives in U.S. law.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On statistics and erasure:

  “Each number has a face and a story…” (Danielle, [00:36])

• On women’s socialized tendencies to rationalize danger:

  “It’s so ingrained in women…to give the benefit of the doubt.” (Cassie, [16:58])
  “You try so hard not to think the worst in people.” (Cassie, [23:01])

• Description of trauma walk out of the forest:

  “Her wounds on her neck gurgled as if air was coming out where it wasn’t supposed to.” (Danielle, [30:09])

• Defense attorney victim-blaming in court:

  “At any point during that afternoon, to your knowledge, did either you or Rebecca put on a show for my client, intentionally tease my client, or purposely reveal any parts of your body to my client?” (Defense lawyer Michael George, [66:58])

• Claudia’s public statement post-sentencing:

  “Rebecca and I were lovers…Nothing about our love for each other could be considered motivation for the violence that Steven Roy Carr perpetrated against us.” (Claudia, [75:40])

• On the broader lesson:

  “This isn’t even about homosexuality…people are so afraid of difference that they see people who are different as subhuman, and sometimes they kill.” (Danielle, paraphrasing Claudia, [81:00])

• Rebecca’s legacy:

  “I think Rebecca would be really proud of me.” (Claudia, reflecting, [83:50])

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Important Timestamps

• Opening Reflection on Trail Safety & Statistics: [00:00]
• Introduction of Claudia & Rebecca’s Relationship: [04:49]
• First Encounter with Carr at the Shelter: [09:02]
• Attack at the Campsite: [24:22]
• Claudia’s Survival Trek: [29:34] – [38:06]
• Police/Medical Aftermath and Internal Debate About Coming Out: [39:30] – [47:00]
• Capture of Steven Roy Carr: [62:20]
• Trial, Defense, and Media Misrepresentation: [66:58] – [75:00]
• Claudia’s Activism and the Passage of Hate Crimes Law: [77:30] – [81:00]
• Reflection on Outdoor Trauma, Healing, and Rebecca’s Memory: [83:50] onward

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Tone & Language

• Empathetic, grounded, and candid. Both hosts bring warmth, humor (in their exchanges about love, historical facts, or their own partner quirks), and unmistakable anger and sorrow to the episode’s tragic heart.
• Memorable host interactions: Frequent asides about their own relationships and perceptions of safety, societal messages to women, and exasperation at the trial’s bigotry and media narrative.
• Victim-centered throughout: The episode fiercely centers the lived experience and dignity of Claudia and Rebecca, resisting any sensationalism.

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Further Resources

• Documentary: In the Hollow (Claudia’s return to the trail)
• Book: Eight Bullets by Claudia Brenner
• Statements/Testimony: Claudia’s congressional remarks and anti-hate crime advocacy

Links to all resources and transcripts are available in the episode show notes.

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Closing Reflections

The episode ends with a moving appreciation for Claudia’s resilience, advocacy, and refusal to become “just a number” in hate crime statistics. Cassie and Danielle urge listeners to examine both past and present prejudices, warning that the threats faced by LGBTQ+ people in public lands—and everywhere—are far from history. Yet, they also offer hope through activism, remembrance, and returning to the wild, “adding a face and a story to the numbers.”

Palette cleanser: A light-hearted ending about the meaning of "don’t let the bed bugs bite" and rope beds, balancing the heavy content with some comfort and humor ([88:45]).

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For Listeners

This episode is essential for anyone interested in true crime, LGBTQ+ history, the intersection of wilderness and violence, and the real-life impact of statistics and policy. It is haunting, enraging, and ultimately inspiring.

“Enjoy the view, but watch your back.” (Sign-off, [91:24])

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Transcript

[A]

Statistically speaking, you are safe on the Appalachian Trail. Going off the most recent data available, you are 968 times more likely to be murdered in the US at large than while hiking along the approximate 2,190 mile route. Statistics are a modality that aid us in understanding the world by transforming raw data into actionable information, allowing us to identify patterns, make informed decisions, and predict future trends. They provide tools to analyze complex situations and distinguish between correlation and causation in data. And all of these things are wonderful. But in relying on those figures alone, we lose connection to the human stories that the impersonal numbers represent. We are removed from the people and their stories. They speak for we. The numbers that appear in spreadsheets regarding violence in the outdoors and beyond are about real people who have experienced real tragedies. Each number has a face in a story, a family, a life damaged, a grieving process, nightmares that won't go away, anger. And the incredible frustration of absolute injustice. In today's episode, the numbers reflect Claudia Brenner and Rebecca White, who were intentionally targeted on the Appalachian Trail. Theirs is a story of love, loss, and refusal to become merely a number in a report. Theirs is a story of a target who shot back. Welcome to National Park After Dark.

[B]

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. I'm Cassie.

[A]

And I'm Danielle. And welcome to another story on the Appalachian Trail. I feel like this is maybe our fourth or fifth for the show, but this story, I think, is going to be one that remains with us for

[B]

a really long time because it's messed up.

[A]

Oh, yeah. If have either of those names rung a bell to you at all, I.

[B]

Yes. I feel like I have heard this before and I feel like I remember this story, but I do not know the full details of it. But I do remember partially.

[A]

Okay. Because I was the opposite. I did not know the story. And I was shocked about that because we have done so many episodes. Well, three pertaining to Julie and Lolly, who lost their lives in Shenandoah National Park. And in as far as, like, a story that involves a hate crime and especially targeted against two women. And not remembering these two women's names in that conversation was really surprising to me. So I'm glad you've heard of them. But I'm also excited that you don't know the full details because the story is insane. It's on the longer side and I can't wait to tell it.

[B]

Great. What. Can I ask what part of the Appalachian Trail this is? Like, what state we're in.

[A]

We're in Pennsylvania today. Okay.

[B]

We haven't done many Pennsylvania. Have we ever covered a story in Pennsylvania?

[A]

I don't know. Pull up our map. Pull up our website.

[B]

Oh my God, you're so right. Guys, if you are not on our website yet, we. We have a whole map, that interactive, interactive map that will tell you every single place we have ever done an episode. So even for me, who has been here for every single episode, I do not remember.

[A]

Yeah, even our bonus story ones are on there. The only ones that aren't geotagged on there are trail tales, because obviously they're

[B]

all over the place. Yeah, see, we got some on here.

[A]

What? Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Give me a hint.

[B]

The Great Flood. Oh, sorry.

[A]

Oh, the Great Johnson. What is it? The flood.

[B]

Yeah, the great flood of 1889. The Johnstown flood Memorial.

[A]

Right. Oh my God.

[B]

And my 911 heroes. The Flight 93 National Memorial.

[A]

Okay, those are on you. Those two. You did both of those episodes you researched?

[B]

I wasn't there for it.

[A]

Neither was I. I guess I didn't hear a thing about them. No, I remember them now for sure.

[B]

Yeah, totally, I remember that. Especially the 911 one. I mean, I've been to that memorial and I've read a whole book for it, so. Well, now that we've established that we've actually been to Pennsylvania, let's go back and I'll let you tell the story.

[A]

Okay. Claudia Brenner lived in Ithaca, New York, while her girlfriend, Rebecca White lived in virginia. It was 1988. No real Internet to speak of. No widespread cell phones and long distance relationships, as some of us know, can be hard. In order to spend some time together, the two agreed to meet in the middle, each driving around five hours to an area in Pennsylvania they had both visited before.

[B]

You just know that at this point of time, they wrote love letters.

[A]

A lost art. You know, I have that book, Love Letters of Great Men or something, and they're historic transcripts of men throughout history writing beautiful love letters. But it's also really cool because the author will be like, this is from, I don't know, Mozart's in there, for example. And they'll say who he was writing to and kind of gives a little bit of historical context and then inserts this beautiful nice long love letter. And then as a close out to that little chapter, she'll be like, oh, yeah, but by the way, he had like five mistresses and he had that girl beheaded five years later. It's like, oh, okay.

[B]

It's like, by the way, These men aren't shit, but they write well.

[A]

Like, okay, you almost had me. I almost.

[B]

I almost believed in romance for just a second.

[A]

Yeah, but I appreciate the honesty.

[B]

But truly, if you have a partner, write them a love letter and mail it to them. Even if you live together, how would that work? Just drop it off at the post office.

[A]

Okay. Right. Yeah, I co sign that. So. They had previously visited this area before, and in one of those adventures, they had selected the Pine Grove Furnace State park to camp within. But this time, they wanted a bit more seclusion than that crowded campground could offer. So ultimately, they decided to backpack along the Appalachian Trail. Rebecca was at their predetermined meeting spot when Claudia arrived at Michaux State Forest in Pennsylvania. Arriving just after 5pm they smiled, embraced, and sensing others around, held back on displaying any further affection, they poured over their map to find the best place to park and leave Claudia's truck. Locating what looked like a perfect spot, they scribbled a note to leave on their windshield. Hiking the AT will be back. After gathering their gear, they set off for the trail. Claudia would later learn the name of the road they parked off of. Dead Woman's Hollow, dubbed such for a woman bitten by a rattlesnake in 1917. That afternoon, though, neither of them noticed the sign. It was Thursday, May 12, 1988, not quite blueberry season yet. But the pair daydreamed about trips to Maine that they would make to pick their own one day. This trip to the AT was meant to be a really quick one, meant to serve as some alone time with one another before they had plans to go up to Rebecca's family's house because her sister was celebrating a birthday. Rebecca liked hiking along the AT and loved reading log entries at the shelters along the trail. Just seeing who stopped by, what they wrote, yeah, how their experiences were, things like that.

[B]

We have a long trail near me, and I do the same. I read the log books in it, and people just leave fun little notes, and it's cool to see who's been traveling through.

[A]

And she really enjoyed peeking into those books. And she also really loved, and I love this detail. She loved explaining to Claudia about the history of the Appalachian Trail, how it was developed, how it was managed. Like the cool people have hiked it just kind of giving her the rundown of the lore of the Appalachian Trail. While Claudia, on the other hand, was really excited because she had recently learned how to zip two sleeping bags together, and they had been apart for a really long time. So they wanted to get it Going, you know what I'm saying?

[B]

Yeah, that's so cute. Al and I actually bought a dual sleeping bag so we could both be in the same one when we camp.

[A]

We are so different. I would never want that. I would never want that.

[B]

I'm so clingy. I'm just like, get closer to me, please.

[A]

You are like a little Velcro.

[B]

I am.

[A]

After about a mile and a half and a few stream crossings, they reached their campsite at the Birch Run shelters. They had their choice of sites, but rather than stay in the little lean to shelter, they pitched their tent in the woods really close by to the lean to. I mean, there are tons of images of this particular site and this shelter. And the site that they selected was within eye shot very easily of this lean to shelter. So they're close by, they're not super secluded, but they just didn't want to be around other people if other people arrived. But at this point they're by themselves. Rebecca boiled dinner on her camping stove. They snuggled up and went to sleep. The following morning, both women climbed out of the tent shirtless. Still believing that they were alone, Rebecca walked off to the outhouse and then to the shelter to look for a logbook and take a gander into who has been there. But as Claudia boiled water for coffee and breakfast, Rebecca came hurrying back. We're not alone here, Claude. We've got to put our clothes on. Rebecca went on to explain that as she approached the lean to in search for the logbook, a man had been there at the moment. They couldn't have known this man had a gun and by the end of the day he would use it. So let's rewind a little bit and get to know Rebecca and Claudia and their story a little bit better. Three years before their camping trip, Claudia and Rebecca met near Richmond, Virginia. Claudia. Claudia had started a graduate program in architecture at Virginia Tech. And Rebecca, a Virginia Tech graduate, was working a sales job in town. And both were members of the local Women's Week committee. Each spring, the community organized a week of women's events around the Virginia Tech area. And they met weekly to plan different events like concerts and feminist speaking engagements and things like that. To celebrate this week long event and during those meetings on the sixth floor of the library closed, Claudia developed a bit of a crush on Rebecca. She was beautiful, with dark features, the appealing result of the mixture of her parents, Puerto Rican, Iranian and Western European heritages. Born on October 17, 1959 in Washington, D.C. the eldest of three daughters, she grew up in Cultures all over the world. Completing her high school education in Seoul, South Korea in 1977. She was intelligent, peppy and, and unfortunately for Claudia, in a serious relationship with a man. And even if she weren't, Claudia was not even sure if she would be interested in dating women at all at the time. Claudia was 29 and had just gotten out of a nine year relationship after moving to New York for undergrad. At age 21, she fell in love with a woman named Anne. While the romantic part of their relationship had come to a long and drawn out clothes, she remained close with Anne as a friend, becoming members of a chosen family. And perhaps as a result, Claudia was looking for one night stands. At this time in her life. She was interested in really deep and meaningful connection. And I can completely understand that. Especially, you know, you're entering your 30s and especially coming out of a really long serious relationship. It's so hard to go back to surface level dating or something really casual in nature. It, it feels really jarring to you. And especially if you're somebody who, you just operate as somebody who wants a serious relationship. Right? Like so at this point in time, even though she's interested in Rebecca, she's not really sure if she's interested back. She has a lot of feelings of. Even if she was, I don't know if I can do casual right now. There it was really complicated in the beginning, totally. However, over time, through events with the women's committee and outside of it, Claudia started to suspect her interest in Rebecca was mutual. They'd shared enough glances and long conversations that left butterflies in their wake. For a long while though, Claudia hesitated to pursue anything. Helping a straight woman come out in the 80s could be messy. And what if she wasn't actually queer and just wanted to play around Claudia,

[B]

are we flirting or are we friends? What's, what's going on here?

[A]

What's going on here? So there's that level to it for sure. But on the other hand, like I said, she had reached a point in her life that she was really just interested in a serious relationship. But she was also cognizant of the fact that maybe Rebecca was exploring her sexuality. Like maybe she was interested in women, but at this point in time she had never dated women. And Claudia was kind of safeguarding her heart and being like, I don't really want to be a part of somebody's. And she says it in her book this way, that she doesn't want to be a part of anybody's experiment or experimental phase.

[B]

That's so Fair. Especially if you're like, I don't know if this is ever going to turn into anything or pan out into anything. And I'm looking for a serious relationship. It's like, I don't know if I want to open this door.

[A]

Right. So all of these thoughts are kind of swirling around. And this lasts for months. But after the spring break of 1987, the two confessed their feelings for one another. And for months after they started seeing each other, Claudia's feelings for Rebecca would take her breath away. Over the next couple of years, the biggest obstacle to their relationship was distance. So they are now seeing each other for years. Just so we're all caught up with the timeline and Claudia returned to her home base in Ithaca that summer and was accepted to a six month study abroad program in Israel the next fall. They sent each other letters.

[B]

I knew it. Oh, right off the bat that they sent each other love letters letters.

[A]

And they actually messaged over a really early form of the Internet called Bitnet.

[B]

Wow, that's before me.

[A]

Yeah, no, BITNET. It's an 80s thing. You know, we're 90s babies.

[B]

We are 90s babies. But, you know, I bet it was still romantic because 90s babies had dial up. So whatever Bitnet is, I bet it was very complicated to send a message.

[A]

Yeah. Claudia had returned from her fall study abroad program too late for spring classes at Virginia Tech, so she was living in ithaca in early 1988. But they got better at bridging the distance between New York and Virginia. They met up regularly, sometimes in between, or one traveling all the way to the other with some more practice navigating the nuance of a queer relationship in the 80s, they started discussing the big life decisions any life partners have to make. Where do we live? How do we balance our career and our relationship? What's next for us? What's our plan? Et cetera, et cetera. Rebecca was wrapping up a master's degree in business at Virginia Tech, and as that came to a close, her sights were set on what might come next. And she was especially interested in moving out West. Claudia, meanwhile, had her roots in the east and was still wrapping up her architecture program. Swamped with schoolwork and big decisions in the spring of 1988, they agreed to meet halfway, each driving five hours to spend time together and go camping. Which brings us back to that morning on the Appalachian Trail when they realized they were not alone. As Claudia and Rebecca hurriedly got dressed, Rebecca described her awkward encounter at that campsite shelter. This guy had seemingly shown up late the Previous night, all alone, and after startling one another when Rebecca went in search of the logbook, he asked Rebecca if she had any cigarettes. As Rebecca turned to leave, wearing only sneakers, he made no effort to conceal an erection. And ultimately, at this point in time, they gave that interaction the benefit of the doubt. After all, they were all in the woods and as sometimes happens, they had an awkward interaction and they kind of were just like, hey, he's another hiker. Nothing to freak out about.

[B]

It's so true. It's so ingrained in women too, to give the benefit of the doubt to people. I think that there, and especially probably during the 80s, there's just this be polite, be friendly, be nice. And it kind of overtakes your thoughts of this is bad, something's off because society has told you, like, be friendly, smile, be kind, especially when it comes to men.

[A]

And that being said, that they didn't freak out entirely right away. They did alter their plans because of this interaction. They had initially planned to camp there the entire time that they were going to be on the AT and they were going to use it as a base camp to just kind of do little short day hikes off of and then return to so they don't didn't have to break down and set up camp several different times and move around. But because of that interaction, they said, we best try and find somewhere else because now we're not alone. And that was pretty strange. That interaction aside, it was the beginning of what appeared to be a nice day. The sun was out, the weather was pleasant, and as they made breakfast, the women caught up about each other's lives, daydreamed and teased each other. They were enjoying being together after weeks away from one another and were relishing in a slow start to the day. After breakfast, they packed up their things, shouldered their packs and walked out of the campsite. As they passed the lean to shelter, the man was still there, sitting against a wall. They all nodded to each other and in the normal polite tone you greet anyone with on the trail, exchanging a slight head nod and a see you later. In truth, they were expecting to never see him again. They planned to see no one that weekend, and by going a little farther from the road, they hoped to avoid groups of campers that might come and stay at the lean to for the weekend. So after looking at the map for a new camping spot, they picked out a spur trail off of the AT called the Rocky Knob Trail, and set off. Rebecca was extra affectionate that morning, maybe even bordering on needy or velcro like almost as everyone does. And she described it as. It was almost as if she couldn't get enough attention from her. But not in an annoying way. In a really cute. Yeah, I'm not annoying there.

[B]

When I.

[A]

You totally understand that I.

[B]

This is speaking to my soul.

[A]

Well, especially imagine you're. You have been away from Al for weeks. You know, we were literally just away

[B]

from each other for like four days. And he went to the bathroom and I stood outside the door and he looked out and I was just right there. He's like, hello. It's like, I missed you.

[A]

Somebody in our book club the other day said that you. Oh no, it wasn't book club. It was our livestream when we did the watch party for grizzly night and somebody messaged in the chat box, cassie, you're like a golden retriever in a human body. And I said, yep, she is. Okay. So back to Claudia and Rebecca. Rebecca's being super affectionate.

[B]

Just affectionate.

[A]

Right. And like I said, Claudia didn't mind it at all. She was excited that they were together and was more than happy to shower her with all the affection and intention that she wanted. As they meandered towards their new campsite, they chatted about their days and stopped occasionally at different trail junctions to check their map, making sure that they were going the right way, exchanging quick kisses as they traced their route to make sure that they were on track. But after about a half an hour on the trail, as Claudia was tucking the map back into the top pocket of Rebecca's pack, a sneering voice called out from behind them. You're lost already. They jumped a bit. It was the man from the campsite about 30ft behind them. No. Are you? They responded. But not waiting for an answer, the woman quickly started walking away. Minds filled with questions and unspoken annoyance. Why is he walking the same way as us? Why can't he just leave us alone? And most concerning of all, why does he have a gun? It was May, months away from hunting season, yet he was hiking with a.22 caliber bolt action rifle. And Claudia noticed the ease in which he carried it. He had it behind his shoulders, slung over both his shoulders, and his hands were draped around it like his arms were draped around it like this. And he was just walking like that.

[B]

And that's so off putting. That's even scarier than just having it on your back because you're like, I don't give a sitting here.

[A]

And it's interesting because in her book she. Because remember, she was just in Israel For a study abroad program. And the first thing she thought of when she saw him, him like that, carrying the weapon like that was, this is alarming because I was just somewhere where soldiers brandished weapons like this and how comfortable they were with this weapon as an extension of themsel. And that was the first thing that she thought of.

[B]

She clocked this as a scary person.

[A]

Yes. Before he could catch up to them, the girls hiked quickly away down a fork on the trail, Checking over their shoulder repeatedly until they were confident they weren't being followed. He seemed to have hiked straight when they had made a turn, and they bounced. Possible explanations for his presence in the woods and why he was carrying this rifle. And once again, here we are with overriding your gut because your logical mind is trying to make sense of a situation that maybe your intuition already has the answers to. But for them, in this moment, they're like, maybe he's hunting squirrels and rabbits and that's how he eats. Or maybe he's just here between shifts because there's a local factory nearby. And maybe he's just, like, on an

[B]

rationalizing it to make him normal and make this not a dangerous situation.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which I think we all do when we see something weird. We're like, maybe. Maybe I'm overthinking this. You know, maybe there is a explanation that's not scary because you try so hard not to think the worst in people, for sure.

[A]

And they eventually landed on, you know what, Whatever he's doing, let's just keep our distance. None of our business.

[B]

Let's just stay away from him.

[A]

Right? Let's just keep apart and keep doing our thing. Since he was no longer on the same trail as them, they breathed a sigh of relief, Settling into a calm but pretty difficult hike. And the feeling like they had the trail to themselves returned. It was a beautiful day, and as they went, they were so absorbed in one another that they accidentally climbed to the top of a peak. Which was hard with their backpacking backpacks, Especially the ones in the 80s and, you know, metal frame type of situation, but it had an incredible view. When the trail widened a little bit, they held hands. They would take turns talking and listening and getting distracted by moss along the trail, Fantasizing about finding a patch large enough to lie down in. And while the man with the gun had never fully left their minds, they found a campsite farther from the main trail. It was just what they were looking for. Tucked into the forest alongside a gurgling stream and complete with a big bed of moss there's no way he can find us, claudia remembered saying. Plus, this camping spot had a big bed of moss that they had been wondering about all day. It just felt like the perfect place to be. They set up a tarp on the moss by the stream and started snuggling. They shared chocolate and snacks while gazing up at the sky and started to get intimate. Rebecca whispered for Claudia to take off her shorts, grabbed her gently, and slid down the tarp as they lay together under the sun, trees swaying in the breeze. It was a beautiful and idyllic moment for a couple in love. Sensing that fooling around was on the precipice of getting a little bit more serious, Claudia asked Rebecca if she wanted to set the tent up, but she declined, wanting to stay in the sunshine. It was the last normal conversation they would ever have. Out of nowhere, Claudia felt her arm explode in disbelief. She struggled to comprehend what was going on. What is happening? Did the world just explode? Is this an earthquake or is this a volcano? Incoherent thoughts unraveled in an instant, her brain's attempt at trying to make sense of a situation that seemed incomprehensible, a complete departure from the reality they were just experiencing. And just moments before. Looking around her, the green tarp they put down was splattered in blood. Rebecca was immediately aware of what was happening and asked Claudia where she was shot. But that was just the first bullet. A second bullet struck Claudia in the neck and she screamed in pain. He came back. Claudia shouted, sitting up involuntarily. A third bullet hit her on the other side of the neck. Stop. She screamed at the shooter. Enough. A fourth bullet hit her in the face. Rebecca shouted for Claudia to get down, and she did what she was told, lying flush to the ground. A fifth bullet struck Claudia on the top of her head.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

Run behind the tree. Rebecca yelled. Next, they were sitting ducks where they were on that tarp. Gathering all of her strength, Claudia leapt up and ran behind the tree. In one swift motion as she stood, Rebecca rose to follow. The sixth bullet hit Rebecca in the back of her head. The seventh hit her in the back before she too dove behind the tree. The eighth bullet missed. All of this happened in the span of just 30 seconds, and it is only with the benefit of hindsight that the pieces came together regarding where all of the bullets landed and how many of them there actually were. As they hid behind a stand of trees in shock and in disbelief, the shots ceased and Claudia began to panic. How are we going to get out of Here. What are we going to do? Where are we going to go? Am I going to die? Claudia said. She could have run her mouth for hours, paralyzed by panic, but Rebecca calmly interjected, stop the bleeding. This simple command somehow helped Claudia ground herself and recognized that they were in an emergency and that if they had any chance of surviving, they needed to act immediately.

[B]

I can't believe they're still alive after the way you just described that.

[A]

I know. Leaning against the tree, Rebecca grew quiet. Anything that could be used to bandage their wounds or stop the bleeding was with their gear, and in order to retrieve it, it would mean having to step out from behind the safety of COVID Claudia had no way to know whether the shooter was still there, but it was now or never. She tentatively took a step, mentally bracing for what was to come, but no shots came. The shooter. It appears to have fled. Claudia grabbed a towel and some clothes, tying off the clothes to slow the bleeding on the back of Rebecca's head, and wrapped a towel tightly around her own neck, which was pouring blood. Adrenaline had dampened the bewildering pain Claudia was experiencing, leading her to talk continuously in a panic stream of consciousness to Rebecca, she, who was no longer talking back. Claudia put her sneakers on and brought Rebecca hers. But Rebecca reached for them weakly, like she couldn't see them. Even after grabbing them, she couldn't put them on. Claudia urged her girlfriend on. Rebecca, come on, get up. We gotta go. We gotta go. We gotta get out of here. We need to go get help. We cannot stay here. Rebecca tried pulling herself up and holding onto the trees for support, but she couldn't get far and collapsed. Claudia realized Rebecca was not going to be able to walk with her for help. She was too weak and in way too much pain. She also knew she couldn't carry her, and after seeing the bullet wound in her back, she was worried that she would end up bleeding faster if she actually did try to get up and walk because of the exertion that she would put into the effort of moving. More alarming, Rebecca's face was losing color, although she still had a faint pulse. Acutely aware that Rebecca was dying in front of her, Claudia locked into action. She grabbed her wallet, their map, and a flashlight because it was starting to get dark at this point, she went to tell Rebecca that she was going for help, but before she left, went to grab Rebecca's sleeping bag. It was getting cold and she didn't want Rebecca to be chilly while she waited for help to arrive.

[B]

Claire.

[A]

Claudia tucked Rebecca into her sleeping bag and set off to retrace their steps back to civilization.

[B]

I can't believe she's up like this.

[A]

Well, we'll get into a little bit of the trauma that her body sustained because she is running on adrenaline.

[B]

And I was gonna say she must be just the way you described how this unfolded and how many times she was shot. The fact that, that she is just up and running, not up and running, but just making all of these decisions and can move like this, it feels

[A]

like it's adrenaline and she's ambulatory at all, is a miracle. The two had hiked for four miles from their car to reach their current campsite. With a flashlight and a map clenched firmly in her hands, Claudia walked back to the main trail, terrified that the shooter would be there waiting for her around every bend of the trail or trailing her. With each passing mile, the pain from her wounds began to push through the adrenaline that had dulled them before. Her arm felt like it was on fire and her neck was in excruciating pain. If she wanted to look left or right, she had to turn her entire body. As she climbed hills, breathing heavily, the wounds on her neck gurgled as if air was coming out where it wasn't supposed to. And she wasn't sure whether to speak, spit or swallow the blood that was starting to pool in her mouth. Either way, whether she, you know, kept the blood in or let it drain out or spit it out in bursts, if she didn't get rid of it, it was impossible to breathe. So she was constantly trying to get this blood that out of her mouth that just kept accumulating. And each time she spit, she could feel hard bits of something falling out with the blood, which she later learned were the shape shattered remains of her teeth.

[B]

Oh my. This is horrific.

[A]

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[B]

I'm sure whoever drove by just saw like probably a pretty scary sight and just kept on.

[A]

And I think about that all the time, I really do because you hear of situations where I think it was, Was it Mary Vincent? I don't know. I don't want to misspeak, but do you know Mary Vincent's story? No. Oh my God.

[B]

Talk about, wait, I think I do

[A]

know the guy chopped her arms off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she crawled up and etc. So, so it was her or a story like that where they were trying to get attention and help on a roadside but they were very, very aware of how horrific they looked and cars kept passing them by and they eventually were like, I'm just going to lay in the middle of the road and if I get hit, I get hit, but this is the only way I'm going to get somebody to stop for me. And it worked, which was risky, but it worked for them. And I think of being the person in a car and I'm alone 95% of my time. If I came across a bloody beaten person emerging from the woods in this condition and I'm by myself and I don't know what the hell is happening in the middle of the night, do I want to stop? Absolutely. Would I? I don't know. I really don't know. And that's, it's just really sad because I think of all the situations of is this a trick? Is this an ambush? Am I in trouble? Like, am I going to be putting myself in harm's way if I stop to try and help somebody?

[B]

Which I think are all valid concerns but it just makes it hard. And it's.

[A]

To be a good person. Yeah, I know.

[B]

It's kind of like, what do you do?

[A]

And in.

[B]

In that aspect, it can.

[A]

Could be.

[B]

Because if you stop and it is an ambush, you could be in trouble, but then you could call 911, but then that person might not be there anymore by the time.

[A]

Or they could die. Or they die.

[B]

Yeah. It's just.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Weighing, like, the risk. And it's hard because if this was me, I would want someone to stop for me, but as a driver and seeing that, I would be very fearful for my own safety as well.

[A]

Yeah. So, I mean, it's heartbreaking that somebody just passed her by, but really putting myself in that situation. I can understand the hesitation is all I was trying to say. Yeah. But finally nearing 9:00pm 9:00pm okay, this. It has been hours. It's been well over five, four hours. I can't believe. Standing, another car appeared. Claudia stepped into the middle of the lane, tracing big circles in the air with her flashlight to make sure that she was seen. It was a car full of local teenage boys, no more than 17 years old, while clearly rattled by the sight of a bloody person in the middle of the night in the woods. When Claudia told them what happened, they rushed her to the nearest town, which happened to be Shippensburg, which was about 15 minutes away. Over the course of the following hours, Claudia was whisked first to a police department, to a hospital by ambulance, and then to a trauma center by helicopter. She recounted her story clearly to the police through her injuries, telling them that she and Rebecca had been camped along the Rocky Knob trail, that they had been shot, and that Rebecca was still there and in dire need of rescue. Even as Claudia was transferred to the hospital, she insisted repeatedly that she was going to be part of the team to rescue Rebecca. Like, even still, she's like, I can do this. I want to be there. I need to be there, and I

[B]

have to make sure she's okay. I have to see her.

[A]

And she kept reflecting back on Rebecca's quick thinking because it saved her life. Her instructions of get down, get behind the tree, stop the bleeding. Without those commands, Claudia really, truly believes that she would have died because she was just in a panicked, incoherent state. And it was Rebecca who was really like, hey, focus. This is what is happening to us right now, and these are the steps that we need to take. So, in complete defiance, or maybe in denial of her own injuries, Claudia told her nurses and doctors that she needed to Help rescue Rebecca. Although in reflection, even though she sensed it right there on the trail after leaving Rebecca, she never allowed herself to believe that the woman she loved was already dead. As Claudia was admitted to the hospital, doctors and specialists alike were stunned by the extent of her injuries. Four bullet wounds to the head and neck and one to the arm. If she had any hope of surviving the night, she needed surgery immediately. Ultimately, Claudia relented and entrusted Rebecca's rescue to the local authorities. Eight and a half hours after the shooting, Claudia was finally admitted to surgery. When she came to the next day, she was greeted by her ex, Ann. The two were still close, like I mentioned in the beginning, despite the end of their romantic part of their relationship. And was the first of Claudia's friends and family to arrive and told her that more were already on their way from Pennsylvania. Claudia's first questions were about Rebecca. What room was she in in the hospital? How was she doing? And it fell to Anne to break the news. Rebecca was found at the campsite the previous night, still tucked in the sleeping bag, like when Claudia left her. Claudia would later learn that the bullet through Rebecca's back had punctured her liver. And a doctor even went as far to have a conversation with her because, of course, survivor's guilt. And a doctor sat down with her and was explaining that to her, like the injuries that she sustained. And he said, even if she was shot on the operating table, she would have never survived it. Wow. Claudia sank from denial into tears, sobbing and despondent. As her parents and more friends came to visit, she repeated the news back to them as if to help herself believe it. Rebecca is dead. Rebecca is dead. Among Claudia's visitors that day was the detective in charge of the case, State Trooper Denny Beaver. Denny was a calm, professional man who Claudia described looking like an ex high school football hero turned coach. While Claudia was still unconscious, Denny had begun questioning Ann about Claudia. How long have you known her? Is there anyone you can think of who might be angry with her, who might want to hurt her? When Claudia came to, he asked extensive questions about the shooting. How long were they out there? Who did they see? The man that they saw with the gun, what did he say to them? What exchanges did you have? Where was he seen last? What cause would anyone or this stranger have to shoot them? Claudia answered Denny's questions. As a detective, Denny had a kind demeanor that projected competence, and Claudia found it easy to trust him almost immediately. And as a witness, Claudia was equally as helpful. Her memory of the shooting was remarkably detailed and consistent as the investigation marched on into the future, she told Denny everything that he wanted to know, but left one thing out. She was afraid to admit that she and Rebecca were dating. She did not want to tell him that she was gay. The world has changed quite a bit in the roughly 40 years since this story unfolded. And the 1980s were a different and difficult time for gay, lesbian, and trans folks to be open about their identities. In her book, Claudia cites several examples of different headlines that made her really fearful of coming out to law enforcement. And to be clear, at this point in time, her friends and family are very well aware. I mean, she was in a relationship with Anne for nine years, so she's not closeted fully, but she was just really hesitant about telling law enforcement about

[B]

that and how they would treat her case if they.

[A]

Yes. Yes. Yeah. So going back to some examples that she listed in her book about, you know, why she was reluctant about sharing that information. In the early 80s, two high schoolers savagely beat a gay man to the brink of death and were sentenced to just 400 hours of community service. In another court case, after a gay man was beaten to death in Florida, the judge jokingly asked the prosecutor, that's a crime now, to beat up a homosexual. In a Texas case where two gay men were murdered, Judge Jack Hampton excused his light sentence by saying, quote, I put prostitutes and queers at the same level, and I'd be hard put to give somebody life for killing a prostitute.

[B]

Okay, so you just have no regard for human life at all.

[A]

So that's the worries and fears that she's like. The justice system does not treat these cases equally. And if I admit, you know, what, if I don't say that I'm gay, is this going to be treated with the same level of seriousness? So I can completely understand the hesitation there. At the time of Claudia's attack, 24 states still had laws banning sodomy. Claudia wasn't sure what the laws were in Pennsylvania. She feared that coming out to the police would not only cause them to stop helping, but could even result in her being convicted of a crime. The crime that took Rebecca's life and almost took Claudia's occurred in 1988, just over 10 years after homosexuality was no longer technically considered a mental illness. Even today, being queer is still thought of by many to be something, to be, quote, unquote, cured. As of today, there are still dozens of countries and even states where conversion therapy is still legal and practiced. Conversion therapy tries to change people, I. E. Non heterosexual individuals, sexual orientations, or Gender identities or expression through various psychoanalysis techniques, behavior modifications, counseling, etc. Conversion therapy or reparative therapies are interventions purported to alter same sex attractions or an individual's gender expression with the specific aim to promote heterosexuality as the preferable outcome. And I found a map online that shows the legal status of conversion therapy for minors in the US and as of March of 2025, because that's the. The latest version of the data they have available. There are 24 states plus Washington, D.C. where conversion therapy is banned. However, five states have partial bans and four states, Alabama, Georgia, Indiana and Florida currently prohibit enacting bans for conversion therapy.

[B]

Allowed to ban conversion therapy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Get out of people's bedrooms. Get out of people's love lives. It has absolutely nothing to do with you.

[A]

So I just wanted to throw that in there because I think that. And we'll touch more upon how this all connects to present day as well. But I think that, you know, I keep saying the 80s, the 80s, this happened in the 80s. It was a different time and. But it really wasn't.

[B]

This is still a conversation that's ongoing. And the fact that we have conversion therapy that has no scientific basis that it actually works, it's just a. Not that I think that it should work or anything. I don't think that your sexuality is a choice and your sexual preferences are a choice, but there's no basis behind it either. It's just torturing people for your own beliefs and it's insane.

[A]

But I just wanted to mention here, you know, reminder, this is still a very relevant topic, an issue, and of course, like I said, we'll expand upon that later. But back to Claudia. She has all of these worries and anxieties running through her mind. And throughout all of this, she's still hooked up to an oxygen mask, grappling with PTSD from the shooting, still in her hospital bed. So while this concern feels pretty reasonable, all of these things that she's thinking, she knew that she needed to help and she needed a plan on how to best approach that. Luckily, her friends were happy to make calls and got connected with the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Anti Violence Project. Their director advised Claudia to come out as soon as possible to law enforcement when a case goes to trial. If a gay victim's identity is revealed after they try to conceal it, they can be labeled as an unreliable witness in the eyes of the jury, ruining any chance they had a justice. He told Claudia that it's much easier to inform a district attorney about her sexuality than recover from a potential stain on your credibility. Yeah, especially in the eyes of the court. And stuff like it's hard to come back from, essentially, is what he's saying. He's like, just say it now, and it's going to work to your benefit. And so, after four days of dodging Detective Denny's questions about the true nature of her and Rebecca's relationship, she came out to the police. Denny, as it turns out, was not surprised. Days earlier, he had searched both Claudia and Rebecca's cars, finding LGBTQ bumper stickers and a book of lesbian erotica, amongst other things. It was pretty hard to miss. So having Claudia admit the troupe was the last step towards fully trusting her and understanding the motives that surrounded her case. From there, they started to make real progress on finding Rebecca's killer. It's also worth pausing to note here how incredible it is that Claudia survived at all. And we've been kind of having little conversations about that. But after her surgery, her doctor told her that her recovery was a miracle, saying she was a quarter of an inch from death or permanent paralysis. Her back to left molars, which she felt coming out in pieces and jostling around in her mouth, and some of her other teeth were affected as well, but in particular, the back two molars prevented a bullet from severing her spine. Spine. So they had dislodged.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

And, like, got stuck in a place.

[B]

That saved her life.

[A]

Yeah, saved her life. If the bullet that damaged her esophagus had been any lower, it would have ruined her vocal cords. Her body somehow managed to stabilize itself for her grueling walk out of the woods four miles in length, eight hours, until she really got into the hands of a medical team.

[B]

It's incredible.

[A]

And the doctor, you know, he's saying all this, and he just was like, I rest assured, this is not normal. What your body did and what you just experienced is not the norm here. And he basically was like, I can't believe you're alive. Most people would have died. Equally as incredible. After only a few days, Claudia was able to stand and walk. Early on, her wounds in her mouth and her throat meant that in order to eat, she was fed through a nasogastric feeding tube. So essentially a feeding tube up your nose that you get food pumped into. But in time, she was taught a technique of swallowing her prescription painkillers with baby food, a trick that, while painful, allowed her to eat on her own. And as Claudia recovered in the hospital, some key steps were made in the hunt for the shooter. Just hours after Claudia emerged from the woods, search teams scanned the forest, sending dozens of law enforcement personnel on foot and horseback in the sky with helicopters and dog teams to sweep the area, and found physical evidence at the site of the crime. 82ft from the bloody tarp by the stream. So right on that other edge or other side of the Little Brook Stream thing that they had set up their tarp along is where they found eight empty bullet casings, a pair of sunglasses, two cigarette lighters, and 25 rounds of unused ammunition that were all sent in for further analysis. A $500 reward was offered for any tips that could lead to the killer's arrest. And after a few days, an anonymous tip came, came in suggesting they look into a man named Steven Roy Carr. Born on December 14, 1959 in New York, Carr moved to Cleaversburg, Pennsylvania with his family as a young child. Growing up, he was considered an outcast in his school. And by age 15, he had dropped out and moved with his mother to Zephyr Hills, Florida. He had various run ins with the law and was a fugitive who'd been charged with grand larceny after stealing from elderly people in retirement communities. He was caught after he stabbed an elderly woman in her home during a robbery gone south. And after also being found to be at the center of a burglary ring operation, he was finally sent to jail,

[B]

but not for too long because he's out.

[A]

Yeah, he got parole and he fled. And the tip suggested that he was now a drifter living in the woods near his childhood home of Cleaversburg. Many locals knew of his presence. Like he wasn't a true hermit or being totally secluded. He was just kind of living off grid and spending a lot of time in the woods. But they had a feeling that he was running from something. They just didn't know the extent of what they didn't know. He stabbed an elderly woman. It sounds like maybe he was at

[B]

the local lore, like, oh, we don't know what he's doing out there, but he's just like this weirdo in the woods.

[A]

Yes. And a lot of people, because this is a small town community and, and this is where he grew up. So a lot of people knew who he was. They're like, oh, yeah, we remember him from when he was a kid here. And they reflected back on the difficult family dynamics that he had and the trouble he had in school. And he was just kind of bullied a lot. So honestly, a lot of people kind of just felt sorry for him and just Let him do his own thing. They're like, you can just be weird over there and we don't know what's happening with you.

[B]

But just, it's like, it's whatever.

[A]

It's whatever. And they kind of just described him as a wanderer and he was resourceful and he just really loved spending time in the woods. And he was quiet when people saw him around town and pleasant enough. Never caused any issues with, with the locals.

[B]

They're like, he's weird. But he didn't feel dangerous.

[A]

He spent a lot of time in Michaux State Forest surrounding the town of Cleaversburg, where he would spend nights out hunting, fishing, and trapping. He also had a cave hideout at his step uncle's property. There was a cave that he would utilize a lot.

[B]

Okay, okay, okay.

[A]

And he would, sorry, I don't want to shame people. Who.

[B]

Does the step uncle not have a house?

[A]

Like, no, no, no, no. I'm sorry. So the step uncle does have a house, but on his property there's a cave system that Steven is using. And he would run electricity from the uncle's house down to the cave. It was kind of like a literal man cave that he was spending time in.

[B]

So anyway, it's important, though, he was gross and disgusting. A lit up cave might be cool.

[A]

And that's how I feel. Meanwhile, with no knowledge of this anonymous tip, Claudia worked with a forensic artist to reconstruct a mug shot of the man that shot she met in the woods. The FBI artist brought stacks of facial feature images for Claudia to compare. How deep set were the eyes? Did the nose slope up or down? How did his hair look? And for three hours, Claudia went over all of this with the sketch artists, and they worked really closely together to narrow in on specific features. Before the artist drew a composite sketch, it looked just like the man Claudia saw in the woods. And it looked just like the mug shot of Steven Roy Carr. And I will post his image, obviously, and the composite sketch. And it just blows my mind how talented sketch artists are, because she nailed it. This forensic artist nailed it.

[B]

I think about things like this in my own observational skills, and I'm like, I need to pay attention more to people. Because if I was ever in front of a sketch artist and they were like, how sunken in are their eyes? What direction is their nose? I could never describe that.

[A]

I think if you give yourself a little more credit because, yes, I agree. But they were also supplying examples of eyes, for example, like, kind of helping. Yes. Be like, was it more like this or like this and it that helped provide direction. But I totally agree with you. I honestly don't know if I could do something like this.

[B]

It sounds really hard. And then to your point with the sketch artist, to be able to take someone's description from their mind and create a real drawing based on what they're saying to you, it can be interpreted in so many ways and it's a real talent to be able to do that.

[A]

Especially, you know, for Claudia, this is the most traumatic moment of her life. And speaking from personal experience, when I've gone through a traumatic event and also, you know, I didn't see someone killed in front of me, but I have seen people die in front of me. I don't remember about details about anything else. Yeah. You know, my brain and just. I still have memory problems. So when I think of moments like this where people really just are. People are just so impressive. That's all I'm gonna say.

[B]

And she got shot in the head multiple times. Still able to describe that.

[A]

It's just. Yeah.

[B]

Her story is so. Her resilience in this where just someone looking out for her to be able to survive something like this is just incredible.

[A]

I know. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack, hydration and coffee sponsor. IQ Bar Protein bars, IQ Mix hydration mixes and IQ Joe mushroom coffees are the delicious, low sugar brain and body fuel that you need to win your day. I love getting a taste of all my options when trying something new. For example, I just signed up for a new workout Pilates studio in town and they offer 15 different types of classes and you betcha I will be sampling each so I know which one I like best. So if you are new to IQ Bar, their ultimate sampler pack is a great way to try all IQ Bar products and flavors. You get nine IQ Bars, eight IQ Mix sticks and four IQ Joe sticks. All their products are clean, label certified and entirely free from gluten, dairy, soy, GMOs and artificial ingredients. And all of their products are packed with clean, delicious ingredients that keep you physically and mentally fit, like magnesium, lion's mane and more. And there are so many different flavor combos to choose from across all of their products. From mint chocolate chip protein bars, Blueberry pomegranate hydration mixes and vanilla spice coffee. And also of course they have limited edition and seasonal flavors too. With over 20,000 5 star reviews and counting, more people than ever are fueling their busy lifestyles with IQ Bar products. I want to give myself a pat on the back personally for crushing my hydration goals so far by using IQ Mix Sticks, their zero sugar drink mix that hydrates with electrolytes. And right now, IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners 20% off of all IQ Bar products, including the Ultimate Sampler Pack plus free shipping. To get your 20% off Text park to 64,000 Text park to 64,000 that's P A R K to 64,000 Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. So with a prime suspect, the police released the forensic sketch to the public, asking for help locating the fugitive. Claudia was released from the hospital. Friends drove her the five hours home to Ithaca as she lay in the back seat, wincing in pain with each bump or swerve in the road. That same day, Rebecca's family hosted a memorial service for her. They held it outside, reclaiming the love of nature she held in life for from the role it played in her death. People danced, sang, shared poetry and remembered a friend taken too soon. Everyone who wanted to share a eulogy was invited to and the service rang out for hours as over 150 people attended the service, a true testament to the remarkable young woman that was taken from them. Rebecca's ashes were then scattered and some were buried in a family plot in Maine. The day following her memorial, a Mennonite minister in Pennsylvania called the police. A member of his congregation saw the composite sketch of the killer on the news and recognized his face. This stranger had recently appeared in the Mennonite community, and a local family had given him shelter and welcomed him to their church. For the first several days of the shooting, Carr had hidden in his uncle's cave, but days of heavy rainfall flooded it, pushing him out and into the woods. He meandered until he reached the dairy farm of Chester and Esther. Chester and Esther. Sorry, it's not funny. It's just I didn't say it out loud before and when I was reading and writing it didn't clock it. Chester and Esther Weaver, about 20 miles northeast of the crime scene, who gave him room and board in exchange for help with farm chores while the composite sketches were widely distributed and the case was literally all over the news. Like you couldn't not see it if you were in this area. He was successful in evading the law for days with this family because this family were strict observers of Mennonite law, which prohibits reading the newspaper or watching tv. So the only reason a tip came in is because a member of the church, quote unquote, sinned and watched TV and happened to see this sketch and was like, wait a minute. This guy is in our community right now, you know, and I know where he's at. And when the police were alerted to where he was or where he was last seen, he was still there. Within hours, Detective Denny and the police swarmed the farm, ready for a fight or some sort of standoff or big altercation. But Carr gave himself over immediately. Without resisting, the police began to question him, asking him what he knew about the shooting. He denied any knowledge, saying he'd learned about it only on the nightly news. Sure, he'd seen the girls that morning on the trail, but quote, unquote, never saw them again. His gun, he explained, had been stolen. He's like, yeah, it wasn't me.

[B]

My gun was stolen.

[A]

I saw them. But only one time.

[B]

It wasn't me.

[A]

They asked him again if he'd seen the girls after that morning, and when Carr denied it again, the officer told him, well, one of the girls lived. Gotcha.

[B]

They saw you. Yeah, they remember you.

[A]

And at this information, Carr breaks down into tears, saying, if I tell you the truth, you'll put me away for a long time. I should have just run.

[B]

Yeah, save your tears, dude. No one feels sorry for you.

[A]

Next, Carr tried out a few other excuses. It was an accident. He said he thought he was shooting a deer, but after five or six shots, he heard screaming and then decided to bury the weapon and ran.

[B]

After you realize you shoot people, you decided not to help.

[A]

And here's this kind of. I mean, of course we can divulge into how ridiculous those things are and trying to, yeah, shirk blame and all that, but on the way to the station. So he's been arrested, he's in the police car. He's kind of just having these conversations with the police after he's read his Miranda rights, like everything is done, but he's just kind of opening his mouth. You know, he's just blabbing to police on the way to the police station, and he admitted to an officer that he, quote, unquote, saw the girls eating each other out. And in court, Carr's lawyer would later argue that the sight of two women making love caused him inexplicable rage. And that comment in the police car, totally him over. Because he was basically admitting that the whole, I didn't know I was shooting a person. I thought I was shooting a deer. That whole basis of defense is completely out the window.

[B]

Yeah. So you just admitted you saw two people there and then you shot them

[A]

because you got mad. Yeah, because two girls were Making love. And that pissed you off, so you shot them? That's essentially what you just said.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Claudia had been staying with her friend and Ann in New York, and her friends were keeping her company around the clock, in part to help with bandages, food and water, but also to keep her from feeling alone. She started seeing a psychiatrist at the hospital and later a therapist twice a week. But the constant physical and emotional support she received from her friends and her family helped keep her afloat. Nothing dulled the loss of Rebecca, though. Claudia was raised Jewish, and to honor Rebecca's passing, she began to sit shiva, the week long Jewish ritual of mourning, expressing sorrow for Rebecca's death and working towards acceptance. When news of Carr's capture reached Ithaca, everyone was relieved. Claudia's friends wanted to throw a celebration, but. But Claudia wasn't happy because it didn't bring Rebecca back.

[B]

Yeah, that's a hard thing to celebrate.

[A]

That summer, the state of Pennsylvania would put Carr on trial for the murder of Rebecca White. A prosecutor would represent both Claudia and Rebecca's family. But before Carr would stand trial before a jury, the courts required a number of preliminary hearings to determine which evidence could or could not be used in the case. Among other things, in these hearings, Claudia was told her lawyers, including Roy Keer, would present evidence that connected car to the crime. And Carr's lawyer, Michael George, would try to find holes in those arguments or present reasons that the case should be dismissed. From there, the judge would then decide whether or not there was enough evidence to bring a case. Claudia came prepared with a legal advocate who advised her to be upfront about being lesbian, to show that it's not something that can be used to intimidate her. But that didn't mean it couldn't be used against her. In the preliminary hearing, Claudia witnessed the strategy that Carr's defense lawyer, Michael George, planned to use against them. When Claudia was called to the stand, George questioned her repeatedly about the intimate details of her romance with Rebecca. He asked her to define oral sex, asked her about when and where they had fondled each other, when and where they had undressed. At any point during that afternoon, to your knowledge, did either you or Rebecca put on a shot show for my client, intentionally tease my client, or purposely reveal any parts of your body to my client? These are real questions.

[B]

Like, that should go to jail, too.

[A]

I have more information. I have more information on this guy because I was like, oh, sir, it's

[B]

like, what are you doing?

[A]

I'm putting on you. You on blast?

[B]

Okay, please tell me he's in he went to jail, too.

[A]

Nope. No, he sure didn't. The questions went on for over an hour. And George. Okay, it sounds. I'm trying to call him by his last name, but it's Michael. George. So when I say George, I'm talking about that guy. I'm not talking about a guy named George. Michael. George. So the lawyer also argued that evidence from the ballistics and autopsy reports should be thrown out as hearsay because officers read the reports into testimony. The judge rejected this and a few other motions from the defense, and the case was allowed to proceed to trial. Carr waived his right to a jury trial in exchange for an agreement by the prosecution to not seek the death penalty, and he was put on trial for first degree murder. When Claudia returned home from Pennsylvania, their local newspaper, the Ithaca Journal, ran the headline, women Teased Me. Mountain man testifies. The article repeated terms like sex acts and taunted directly, playing into the strategy of Carr's lawyer, frame the victims as sexual deviants and blame them for what happened to them.

[B]

If this was a heterosexual couple, none of that would have.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It would have been like, couple in love slain. That's so frustrating. It's like, how about creepy man spying on two women, attacked and murdered, Attempted

[A]

to murder both of them.

[B]

Both of them. Yeah.

[A]

This headline prompted organized pro.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

It's okay.

[B]

Calling him a mountain man, like it's some mountain man has this romantic connotation to it, you know, like, oh, this mountain man.

[A]

Yeah, he's known as.

[B]

Him a mountain man.

[A]

He's known as the mountain man killer.

[B]

How about the creepy man who.

[A]

And you should see. Wait until you see his pictures. He's gross.

[B]

I hate this. I already know he's gross just based on.

[A]

Yeah, but his. His outward appearance for sure, mirrors his innards. Innards. So headlines like this prompted organized protests in Ithaca and outrage from Claudia. But her legal advisors warned her about this. They warned her to keep her head down. They advised Claudia to go ahead and encourage and support her friends to protest. But if she appeared in the media, it would likely hurt her case and be used against her. So, you know, as much as it enraged her, and it. It was all part of the game, and her legal advisors knew it. And they're like, you just need to stay out of it until this is over because it could trip up everything.

[B]

They want to paint you in a bad light. And if you're part of these protests, they're going to use it against you.

[A]

Yeah, they're baiting you into it. And in later interviews, George Michael George even admitted, quote, in a way, we wanted to get the local folks talking more about the lesbianism than the murder.

[B]

Right. Because that's way worse than murdering someone.

[A]

They wanted to distract and shift blame and make it about something else and totally shift everybody's attention and where they should place their thought and care and hatred. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so luckily. All that to say luckily, the judge for their case was not having it. Carr's lawyer extended his argument in the next hearing, claiming that Carr went into the woods to escape the evils of the world and that the quote unquote, lesbian lovemaking might be enough to cause anyone to be homicidal. Like that is their basis of this whole entire argument. I just want to really reiterate that this is their entire. This, their whole case hinges on this.

[B]

And for the record, he's actually in the woods because he stabbed an elderly person and is out on parole and

[A]

fled and is evading the law. Right there is also that.

[B]

So it's not like this awful thing happened to him because he was trying to escape society.

[A]

Such a good point. I didn't even put that together. The lawyer also argued that Carr had a history of abuse and neglect by women and had that chat.

[B]

Oh, no, men. Women don't like me. It's like that's evolution. Saying, like, you're not a strong enough man to procreate with women and your bloodline needs to die out.

[A]

I caught you on a man hating day.

[B]

I can be switched into man hating so quick.

[A]

I felt the energy shift a lot in the last hour. I knew you would get riled up because I know that you're really passionate about stories like this. Of course. And violence against women or especially hate crimes and things like that, and men just being awful. So I knew this would happen.

[B]

Yeah, well, I'm enraged, so please continue.

[A]

Okay, so he argues this, he brings that up, and then he also does say that he had been raped in prison by another man, which explained his revulsion to what he saw in the woods with two women being raped.

[B]

And watching a consensual couple is so different.

[A]

I'm just explaining what freaking Michael. George. George Michael was trying to say. So I'm just giving you the facts. But I agree, it's completely ridiculous.

[B]

No one deserves to be sexually assaulted. And that's awful that that happened to him. But also, you were in prison for stabbing an elderly person, and that doesn't give you the right to be violent and horrific because something happened to you. Go to therapy.

[A]

I'm gonna just Keep agreeing with you. So I'm just gonna keep going because we're just. Okay. Just know I agree with you.

[B]

Just know I will continue to hate on him for the remainder of this episode.

[A]

Okay. The tactic of introducing the homosexual panic defense was done in hopes of reducing the murder charge to manslaughter. Carr requested the court to reduce the charge to voluntary manslaughter on the grounds that he shot the women in a heat of passion. He wished to introduce evidence pertaining to his history of rejections in school and by women, including his own mother and his subsequent retreat into the mountains to escape it all. He argued his psychosexual history, the women's nudity, and their sexual activity provoked him. Right.

[B]

He got an erection. Like, he clearly wasn't that bothered.

[A]

Well, he sought them out is also the other part of this. Yeah.

[B]

He followed them.

[A]

Yeah. Not that it would ever be an excuse in any version of the world, but even taking this as, okay, this is really what you're saying, then why did you seek it out intentionally?

[B]

Why did you stalk them in the woods?

[A]

Here we go again with the judge coming in being like, I don't think so.

[B]

I'm glad this judge actually is not buying any of this.

[A]

Yeah, basically, he was like, hey, so if you are so repulsed by this, why did you pursue them for a better view before shooting them? And he basically was like, no, this. None of this is going to fly here. The court found the evidence irrelevant, and the judge ruled that sexual conduct of any kind could not be considered legal provocation for murder. And with that, Carr's lawyer had no defense. Almost exactly a year after the shooting, Carr accepted a plea deal and was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. He later appealed to the Pennsylvania Superior Court, arguing the court should have admitted the evidence, which would have reduced the charge. And long story short, he did not win that appeal. After the sentencing, Rebecca's father reacted to the sentence by saying, quote, I wanted him sentenced to death. His life is worthless. Fair. Claudia gave her first public statement about the case to the press, saying, quote, my name is Claudia Brenner. It seems to me that a life sentence with no parole, while not compensating for our tremendous loss and pain, is the appropriate response to a nightmare that nothing can ever make right. Rebecca and I were lovers. As the judge ruled, nothing about our love for each other could be considered motivation for the violence that Steven Roy Carr perpetrated against us. While I am angry that someone could suggest that who we were could reasonably prompt some. Someone to kill Us. I am glad that the law is clear. I am also heartened by the respectful and professional manner in which the case was handled by the Pennsylvania State Police and the Adam County District Attorney's Office. All of those involved never wavered in their investigation and prosecution of the serious crime. In particular, I want to thank State Trooper Denny Beaver for his warmth and kindness throughout this ordeal. Most gay people who are victims of violence do not receive the kind of treatment that I received that any person who's been the victim of crime deserves. Rebecca's tragic death and my own near death are deeply felt by many, both those who knew her and those who knew her only through her death. I have been deeply touched by everyone's response. I can't begin to express our collective grief and how much we miss her. After the press conference, Claudia, her lawyers and lead investigator Denny Beaver, met up at a tavern to celebrate. They were all glad that the case succeeded. But Denny and the other officers asked Claudia why she'd bothered to thank them specifically in her statement, when they were just simply doing their job. And to answer, Claudia tried to describe the stereotype that many people have of queer folks, caricatures of morally corrupt, sexually deviant people. Just like how Carr's defense attorney, Michael George tried to paint her. And when you don't know any gay people or any lesbians, those stereotypes are never challenged. You never get to see those people for who they really are. Additionally, as an article in the Washington Post points out, while Claudia praises the system for treating her fairly at every juncture of her experience, she says that many factors made her case more clear cut and easier for people to sympathize with than many equally serious instances of anti gay violence. She is white and middle class. Her parents came to her side immediately. Her friends were professionals and had connections that helped her. All of which gave her credibility in the eyes of officers on her case. So she's basically being like the stars, really aligned. For me, this is not the normal experience.

[B]

I love that she's saying this because I think, especially with everything that she's been through, it would be totally reasonable to, to say thank you all for handling this and getting justice for her and then just shut the door on that. But she has decided to take her experience and highlight the struggles that it is to be a gay person who is the victim of violence and survivor of violence and using that to advocate.

[A]

Over the course of the case, Denny and his fellow officers got to know Claudia. Yes, she's gay, but she was also an excellent student in graduate school. Had a huge, incredibly supportive and kind community of friends and displayed a superhuman level of endurance and stamina, gritting through unbelievable injuries to save herself and the woman she loved. The troopers couldn't help but become founding members of what her lawyer called the Claudia Brenner fan club. She broke down any stereotypes that they had in their head about queer people, and the troopers took this to heart. Denny admitted he'd only ever met one other lesbian before after responding to a drunken domestic dispute call. To which I say one that you knew of.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, but

[A]

that's neither here nor there. And he candidly acknowledged that the shift in perspective might not have come as easily if the victims had been two gay men. But after this long heart to heart, they could understand the degree of homophobia Claudia expected from the justice system. So really, by working with Claudia and getting to know her, it really broadened their perspective and open their eyes and really made them confront and face a lot of what was systemic in the justice system and law enforcement that they're a part of. They're like, oh, we didn't even. You know what? You're right. You're right.

[B]

I'm sure it reshaped the way that they treated people who are a part of the LGBTQ community after that, too.

[A]

Yes. For Claudia, the world she returned to was different than she had known growing up. Violence was no longer a hypothetical thing. Even though she was raised Jewish and her father had fled Austria because of the Holocaust, that kind of life, endangering oppression felt like a historic type of thing. Believing somewhere in the back of her mind that something like that could never possibly happen to her now, when she left the house, the opposite was true. The thought in the back of her mind became, someone could murder me. Her sense of safety was shattered forever, and. And picking up the pieces wasn't something she could do once and magically be good. As new therapy and continued friendship helped her address PTSD symptoms as they reared their heads for many years to come. And she came to understand these problems as more than just isolated freak incidents that happen to unlucky people, but systemic violence, which we as a country could do more to fight against. A fight that she could play a unique role in. Weeks after she spoke publicly about car sentencing, Claudia was invited to Washington, D.C. in a press conference at the U. S. Senate, lawmakers were speaking in support of the federal hate crime statistics act, a new bill that for the first time would require the government to collect data on crimes motivated by prejudice against people based on race Religion or sexual orientation. Congressional representatives could talk at length about the value of the bill and certainly did. But when Claudia took the podium, its importance took on a brand new meaning. You could feel the weight of her words as real as the scars on her neck. She closed her speech with, quote, I wish that by my being here today, as people reflect upon the statistics of this report, they will be able to add a face and a story to the numbers. And if to further the goal of humanitarian response to violence against gays and lesbians, we need to compile statistics, then I, as a victim and as a statistic, stand in support of the proposed hate crime statistics act. Claudia was later invited to the White House. As the act was signed into law, Advocates celebrated it as the first federal statute to officially recognize lesbian, gay and bisexual people. And in closing, Stephen Roy Carr is still in prison today. Claudia did not allow his actions to end her life, and neither did she allow the experience to define her. After her first national speaking events and success with the hate crimes bill, she became a successful speaker and activist lobbying for gay rights around the country, Sometimes while wearing a necklace that belonged to Rebecca, a silver pendant hanging from a black cord. When speaking at a fundraiser event for gay men and lesbians opposing violence in 1995, she said in part, quote, I never thought that you could be killed for being gay. I knew about taunts and harassment, and that's what I thought of when someone said anti gay. I never thought it happened to women. I never thought it was a matter of life and death. If it's all right to tell jokes about gays, if it's all right to yell slurs at us on the street, at some point, it becomes all right for the Steven Roy cars of the world to hunt us down and shoot us. Rebecca and I were playing by the rules. We were in the middle of the woods. We weren't flaunting it, and we still weren't safe. And she later went on to specify that for her, the issue isn't even about homosexuality, specifically saying, quote, people are so afraid of difference that they see people who are different as subhuman, and sometimes they kill. But she also returned to her original career goal because, remember, she was going to school for architecture, and she ended up founding her own design firm. So she pursued that with the help of her friends. She was also able to return to life without sacrificing too much of what she loved before the shooting. But for many years, many, many years, it forever changed her relationship with the outdoors. In the end of her 1995 book Eight Bullets, Claudia writes, none of my close friends ever go camping or backpacking anymore. As far as I know, as a community, we have sacrificed our time in the woods. In time, though, even those wounds began to heal. Ten years ago, Claudia took part in a short documentary about her story called in the Hollow, revisiting for the very first time the place where she and Rebecca camped, retracing her steps to where her life changed forever. In a touching sequence, she remembers Rebecca and tries to make peace with what happened. When thinking of Rebecca and pondering what she may think about what happened to them and, and how Claudia has handled the aftermath and how she has taken on a role in LGBTQ and anti hate crime activism, she smiles and says, I think Rebecca would be really proud of me. And that's the story of Rebecca White and Claudia Brenner.

[B]

Oh, God, that was awful. I really love how you ended that though, because I think that it's so awful that especially for so many reasons, but to touch on that it ruined their relationship with the outdoors and that that was taken from them. Understandably so. But for her to go back to that same spot and to become such a fierce advocate for, for this cause, and I think that she's absolutely right. I, I, I believe that Rebecca would have been really proud of her as well.

[A]

Yeah. I will of course link the documentary. I loved it. It's only 15 minutes long. It's a really quick watch. And it's so interesting because Claudia voices the entire thing. It weaves together reenactments of them as her and Rebecca Younger and the actual, you know, crime and their days in the woods together. But it's woven in between present day Claudia going back to the literal same exact sites. I mean, they show she's like, this is the spot we were camped at. This is where the shooter was. This is the lean to he was at every single. She goes not just back to the area, not just back to nature, she goes back to the actual places that this stuff happened to her and Rebecca, it's really moving and to see her not only speak about it, but revisit it was really powerful. And her book, Eight Bullets, I there's only one. We're trying to kind of steer away from Amazon as much as possible, but there is, it's available on Amazon, but I like borrowed it, quote unquote, from an electronic library.

[B]

Oh, cool.

[A]

So I'll link that as well for if people want to just read it on. It was really weird. It's like, you can borrow this. And I clicked Borrow. And it's like, you've borrowed it.

[B]

I did that recently on. On something I was doing for research, and then it was like, you can return it.

[A]

Yeah. And it's like, okay, return. Yeah, it's strange. But anyway, so if people want that resource, I'll link it as well. And I did want to shout out that I also went through a lot of. Not only the book and the documentary, but because she's been so vocal in all of these different. Of course, all the court records are there, and that's one thing, but because she's been so vocal about the legislation and anti gay hate crime movements and things like that, she has a lot of testimony and statements and things like that, which I clearly read parts of. But specifically with the Hate Crime Statistics act, the reason I wanted to do the intro about statistics is to kind of thread that together. And part of what I said in the intro about, you know, each number has a face and a story, a family, nightmares that won't end. Those are directly pulled from her statements.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So if you want to read those in full, they're equally as powerful as everything else that she's written and done. And those will be on the show notes as well. So if you want more about. From Claudia, you'll have it.

[B]

Well, thank you for telling that story. It is something that I had slightly heard of, but I didn't know the full details. And I think it's heartbreaking and I think it's really poignant to everything that's going on today and a real reminder of being accepting and open to all types of people and that this ingrained hate towards a lot of people is very prevalent today and it's not acceptable, and that there are people out there advocating against it. And just a reminder that this might feel like it was a long time ago, but this is still very possible to happen again.

[A]

And as she said, you know, this isn't even. Yes, I'm very passionate about gay and lesbian, LGBTQ specifically, but this isn't just about that. This is about people hating other people who are different from them, and that's the problem. So thank you, everyone, for listening to their story.

[B]

And.

[A]

And I hate leaving like this. I'm so sorry.

[B]

I know we talk about doing palate cleansers, and then we just.

[A]

I have one. You do? Oh, my God. I have one in my mind. Oh, yes. Right now.

[B]

Ready?

[A]

Okay. I'm so glad I saw this.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Ready? Okay. Palette cleanse. I saw this video today. I follow a lot of, like, historical facts and weird things. Obviously. That's my algorithm. Earlier, you're like, did you see the. She's like, I don't know if our algorithms are the same, but I saw something about the Lion King song today. I'm like, I'm about to tell you where my algorithm brings me. And. Okay, so you know the phrase don't let the bedbugs bite? Yes. Sleep tight. Don't let the bed bugs bite. So forever, I thought that was about insects that bite you. Well, back in the olden times, bed frames didn't have wood slats. They were just metal frames that had holes in the sides, and rope was threaded and weaved through them. And it was great for a while. It was, like, nice and springy and cushy. And the feather mattresses were really comfortable on top of them. But over time, the rope would start to loosen and sag and affect the mattress. So in order to address that, there would be this tool that was kind of like a. It looked like a slingshot, like a Y shaped wooden thing that was used to go into the special part of the frame and tighten the rope to make it tight again so it wouldn't be sagging. But to do that, you would have to twist and twist and twist. And if you slipped or let it go, it would whip around and smack you. And the tool was called a bug. So the bed bug would bite you like, oh, don't let the bed bug bite. Oh. And it would catch on the hand.

[B]

I feel like this is gonna be something similar to. In, like, 30 years when people are like, roll up the windows, and people are gonna be like, where did that come from? Why?

[A]

Oh, yeah. What do you mean?

[B]

You just press the button, right? Roll them up.

[A]

You'll never believe this, but back in my day, back in the old days, there was this thing that you had to crank manually with your hand, and that's how windows worked.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

Yeah. So there's my palette.

[B]

And you're old, and you're old, as

[A]

I know. Well, there's your palette cleanser, I guess. Just a interesting historical fact.

[B]

I'm glad it went that direction, because sometimes you've done pallet cleansers, and they're wicked to depressing. And when you said, like, I was looking at old facts, I'm like, oh, God, she's going into. Where were you going? Super depressing.

[A]

No, no. Okay, you want me to. I could.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

We'll end it there.

[B]

This is a good ender.

[A]

All right, well, everyone enjoy your week. We will see you next time. In the meantime, enjoy the view, but watch your back. Bye Bye.

[B]

Thanks for joining us for another episode. We hope you learned something new and have another location to put on your list. If you want more NPAD content, make sure to follow along with our adventures on all socials at National Park After Dark.

[A]

For more stories just like this one, with the added bonus of exclusive content, you can join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. If you prefer to watch our episodes, head over to our YouTube channel. And if you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe on your favorite listening platform.