The Bravest Little Dog in Alaska: Glacier Bay National Park

Summary

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National Park After Dark

Episode: The Bravest Little Dog in Alaska: Glacier Bay National Park

Date: April 6, 2026
Hosts: Danielle & Cassie

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Episode Overview

In this uplifting, animal-centered episode, Danielle and Cassie recount the remarkable story of Stickeen, a little black terrier who accompanied naturalist John Muir on an intrepid glacier crossing in Alaska’s Glacier Bay National Park in 1880. Unlike the podcast’s typical focus on the darker side of national parks, this week’s tale is a redemption for adventure dogs everywhere—a celebration of animal courage, the bonds between humans and animals, and the ways non-human companions can change us. The episode also examines John Muir’s complicated legacy, the role of Indigenous knowledge, and the visible impacts of climate change in Glacier Bay.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Mood Shift: A Celebration of Resilient Animals

• Redemptive Dog Stories: Cassie chose this story to counterbalance a previous, tragic animal episode, promising this tale is “not a death story about a dog” but “a dedication to the dogs who make our adventures better” [03:11].
• Dog-Centered Adventures: The hosts reminisce on other “adventure dog” tales in the National Parks, and discuss how rare purely positive animal-centric episodes are for their show [03:18–04:50].

Who Was John Muir?

• His Role In Conservation: Cassie recounts Muir’s background: Scottish immigrant, founder of the Sierra Club, catalyst for the creation of the National Park Service, and author of wilderness memoirs. She notes his influential trip with Theodore Roosevelt, which led to the inception of the U.S. National Parks [05:18–06:22].
• A Complicated Legacy: The hosts acknowledge Muir’s racist and dismissive attitudes towards Black and Indigenous peoples, and his tendency to erase the vital contributions of Indigenous guides in his writings. Cassie: “John Muir is a very controversial person in history... He contributed to conservation... however, he had extremely racial prejudice, and he really disliked Indigenous people” [09:54–12:43].

Indigenous Knowledge and Park History

• The Tlingit and Glacier Bay: Cassie clarifies: “He couldn’t have made these trips without the Indigenous Tlingit guides… yet doesn’t really recognize them” [08:56–12:43].
• Erasure in Narratives: The story Muir tells in his children’s book only refers to his Indigenous guide as “Joe the Hunter,” rather than by name—“just kind of gives you an idea of how much he just was not acknowledging the Indigenous guides here” [21:12].

Glacier Bay’s Environmental Significance

• Wilderness and Change: Glacier Bay National Park spans 3.3 million acres and holds over 1,000 glaciers, with visible and rapid glacial retreat due to climate change. The pace of change is “staggering... Marjorie Glacier is advancing 12 to 14 feet per day thanks to rapid global warming” [13:26–14:12].
• Personal Observations: The hosts reflect on their own glacier hikes in Alaska, describing posted markers tracking glacial retreat and lamenting the reluctance of the Park Service to mention climate change on official park materials [14:31–16:05].

The Story of Stickeen: The Brave Little Dog

(Main Story Begins 19:48; Stickeen introduced at 22:02)

• Origins & First Impressions: Stickeen, a small black terrier, joins Muir’s expedition when Reverend Young brings him aboard. Muir is initially dismissive, calling Stickeen “worthless... a toy dog, even sluggish and helpless” [24:44]. Young advocates for the dog, touting his resilience—“endure cold and hunger like a bear, swim like a seal, and was wondrously wise and cunning” [23:04].
• Stickeen’s Behavior: Stickeen repeatedly surprises Muir with his hardiness, joy in cold weather, love of hunting, and determination (often preferring adventure to obedience). The hosts discuss stereotypes about small dogs’ inability to handle wild conditions and challenge these ideas through Stickeen’s story and modern comparisons [26:51–32:33].
• Moments of Bonding: As Stickeen braves the journey, Muir’s opinion shifts. He even makes “moccasins” for the dog’s injured paws. The dog’s unwavering presence and resilience make Muir reevaluate his assumptions about animals and their inner lives [34:43–35:31].

The Glacier Crossing Ordeal

(The Heart of the Story: 36:24–57:00)

• Setting Out into the Storm: Muir, attempting to explore the glacier solo, is followed by Stickeen, who refuses to turn back despite harsh, stormy conditions. Muir, exasperated but allowing the dog to join, describes Stickeen’s “strong independent streak” [38:36–39:45].
• Maze of Crevasses: As snow blinds them and the terrain becomes a disorienting labyrinth of deadly deep crevasses, both are tested by cold, hunger, and exhaustion. Stickeen repeatedly crosses dangerous ice gaps, but ultimately faces a sliver-thin ice bridge over an abyss—a crossing that even frightens the fearless terrier [50:06–53:02].
• Memorable Moment: For the first time, Stickeen hesitates and whimpers, expressing clear fear. Muir is startled: “It was so familiar, so human in its fear, that Muir found himself speaking to him as if they were facing it together” [51:29].
• The Crossing: Stickeen eventually summons the courage to scoot across the narrow bridge on his belly, while Muir encourages and anxiously awaits him—"Stickeen became calm, visibly took a deep breath in, then crouched down on his belly and started scooching across the ice bridge... In one fluid motion, Stickeen went springing up the cliff... safe at the top. 'Well done. Well done, little brave boy,' Muir shouted" [53:02–55:18].
• Joy and Zoomies: Once across, Stickeen erupts with “zoomies,” whirling around the ice in uncontainable joy—a display Muir had never seen before and one that moved him deeply [54:50–56:26].

Aftermath and Reflection

• A Changed Relationship: Stickeen and Muir are inseparable for the rest of the journey, the dog sleeping pressed against him and only eating what Muir fed him [56:26].
• Muir’s Transformation: Years later, Muir wrote a children’s book at his daughters’ urging, admitting: “Through Stickeen as through a window, I have ever since been looking with deeper sympathy into all my fellow mortals” [58:36].
• Host Reaction: Cassie and Danielle reflect on the transformative power of animals, the importance of recognizing their agency and feelings, and how baffling it is that such empathy must be “learned” by figures like Muir [58:53–61:22].

The Mystery of Stickeen’s Fate

• Uncertain Ending: After the expedition, Stickeen was reportedly “stolen away by tourists” on a departing steamer. Muir chooses to imagine Stickeen as “a globetrotting adventurer... into the great wild world” [64:27–65:27].

Modern Reflections and Listener Engagement

• Cassie encourages listeners to share stories of their own “adventure animals.”
• Discussion on how society views animal consciousness, and a firm rejection of the idea that animals lack complex emotions [61:15–62:19].
• Humorous tangents abound, including talk of “crevasse” vs. “crevice,” small dog stereotypes, and cake-based reality TV hopes for Cassie.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On John Muir’s View of Animals:
  “Maybe it makes us feel nervous to grant animals such depths of consciousness...if we recognize their inner lives, it means acknowledging we too are animals just like them.” – Cassie, [00:51]

• The Promise of a Happy Story:
  “Spoiler alert: This is not a death story about a dog. Actually, the exact opposite. This is more of a…dedication to the dogs who make our adventures better.” – Cassie, [02:46]

• On Perceptions of Small Dogs:
  “How do you trust a guy who doesn’t like dogs? You don’t.” – Danielle, [23:04]

• Indigenous Acknowledgement:
  “The story only happened because he had guides that were Indigenous…and still he doesn’t really recognize them.” – Cassie, [12:12]

• On Climate Change and Glacier Bay:
  “It’s a place where you can witness climate change firsthand.” – Cassie, [14:09]
  “It’s just interesting to note that they’re removing signage about climate change in a park that is dubbed after glaciers.” – Danielle, [15:51]

• Crossing the Ice Bridge:
  “Stickeen became calm, visibly took a deep breath in, then crouched down on his belly and started scooching across the ice bridge. He never lifted his feet, but just dragged himself across inch by inch.” – Cassie, [53:06]

• Reflection on Empathy:
  “Through Stickeen as through a window, I have ever since been looking with deeper sympathy into all my fellow mortals.” – John Muir via Cassie, [58:36]
  “It’s so beautiful that a little dog could do that to someone who didn’t—I mean, I feel like I was born with those feelings.” – Cassie, [59:43]

• Summation of Theme:
  “If you’re alive, you are worth something.” – Cassie, [59:48]
  “You don’t think animals have feelings? You’re wrong.” – Danielle, [60:52]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:51 – Introduction to the episode’s theme and John Muir’s philosophical dilemma
• 09:54–12:43 – The complicated legacy of John Muir, racism, and Indigenous erasure
• 13:26–16:14 – Overview of Glacier Bay National Park; impacts of climate change
• 22:02–24:44 – Stickeen joins the story; Muir’s skeptical first impressions
• 36:24–56:26 – The glacier crossing ordeal, including the sliver ice bridge and Stickeen’s heroics
• 56:26–59:48 – Aftermath, Stickeen and Muir’s changed relationship, philosophical reflections
• 64:27–65:27 – The unresolved fate of Stickeen—stolen, or off to new adventures?
• 66:03–67:42 – Listener engagement and closing thoughts

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Episode Tone & Style

The hosts combine heartfelt storytelling with playful, relatable banter. They weave historical biography with modern reflection, challenge classic conservation narratives, and invite listeners into the emotional world and agency of non-human adventurers. Humor, tangents about personal lives and pets, and direct appeals to listeners foster a conversational, intimate tone.

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Listener Takeaways

• Animal Companions Matter: The courage and loyalty of even the smallest animal, like Stickeen, can inspire and change us.
• Critical History: Major figures like John Muir were complex, and their legacies include both heroic and harmful elements.
• Environmental Awareness: The visible retreat of glaciers in places like Glacier Bay is one of the starkest testaments to climate change.
• Empathy wins: Recognition of animal agency is not just sentimental but informed by experience and science.

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If you have an adventure animal with courage and heart—tell the podcast! And always, enjoy the view, but watch your back.

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Transcript

[Cassie]

Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's Name youe Price Tool for years now. With the Name youm Price Tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com, find a rate that works for you with a name, your Price Tool Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and Coverage Match limited by state law it's mind boggling to think of all the non human heroes that have faced death defying odds and survived, all without any human there to witness their courage or record their story. For instance, think of the mama puma of Patagonia chasing down a wild guanaco just trying to bring home a meal for her young, risking her life, hooves kicking at her head, leaping on her prey's back and hanging on like a bronco rider only to fail way more often than she succeeds. Or the male chimpanzee who must summon the courage to fight a brutal alpha who's terrorizing his tribe so he can take the crown and rule. Or the queen meerkat who must make the hard decision to lead her flock across dangerous lands in search of food in new territory. These are real life dramas of animals outside the purview of human sight. Maybe it makes us feel nervous to grant animals such depths of consciousness. We prefer to think of animals as unfeeling and unaware, perhaps because if we recognize their inner lives, it means acknowledging we too are animals just like them. These were some of the confusing realizations that the famous mountaineer John Muir faced on one of his excursions into the Alaska wilderness to the remote frozen lands that would become Glacier Bay National Park. This was back in the late 1800s. The animal that inspired these thoughts wasn't an apex predator, though, or a wild animal at all. It was a cute little black terrier named Stickeen who made the puzzling decision to join him on his trek up the side of a massive glacier. And when the two of them ended up trapped in a web of terrifying crevasses, Muir witnessed how much courage the little dog mustered to finish the journey. One little scrappy pup would end up teaching Mirror an important lesson about the minds of animals. Welcome to National Park After Dark.

[Danielle]

Hello everyone, and welcome back to National Park After Dark. My name is Danielle. And I'm Cassie, and we're talking about animals today.

[Cassie]

Yeah, I felt Like, I had to do a redemption animal story because my last one that featured dogs was abandoned in the Arctic and a lot of them died, and I felt really bad about that. So I guess, spoiler alert. This is not a death story about a dog. Actually, the exact opposite. This is more of a. A dedication to the dogs who make our adventures better.

[Danielle]

Amazing. I'm glad you're doing that because. Yeah, I think every single dog died in the other one.

[Cassie]

Yeah, they did.

[Danielle]

Yeah. Well, I'm glad we're pivoting because we need some happiness around these parts. And it's been quite a while since we've done an animal centered episode in this way, because I think your other one that you did like five years ago, the Amazing Animals episode, I loved that episode. It feels like it's kind of the same vibe because every other animal episode we've done, it's like, and then this animal killed 5 million people.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

And that's it.

[Cassie]

I loved that episode. That was so. I remember I did it because I was like, we talk about too much doom and gloom.

[Danielle]

It was like episode two about these cool animals. Little did we know how far 300

[Cassie]

and whatever episode this is.

[Danielle]

I think this is 65. I think this is 365. Wow.

[Cassie]

One year you could listen to our podcast every day for a whole year.

[Danielle]

Wow. You could.

[Cassie]

You could hear us every day and hear new stuff.

[Danielle]

I actually did the. I did the Iditarod National Historic Trail, and that was about dogs in a nice way. With Togo and Balto.

[Cassie]

Yeah. I mean, it wasn't fully nice.

[Danielle]

Yeah. But like, all right, it was actually

[Cassie]

pretty horrific because wasn't Togo, like, abused and sent all over the country after?

[Danielle]

Yeah, we don't talk about that. You can re. Listen to it if you want to hear more about that, but I wouldn't call it happy. Okay, well, then tell me something.

[Cassie]

All right. Well, we're actually going to be diving into a story about John Muir, which is this. This is also, I think maybe the first time mirror has popped onto our podcast, which is really funny considering we have a year of podcasts, episodes worth

[Danielle]

never mentioned the guy never talked about him even once. The father of national. Or what is it? Is he the father of national parks? Or is that like, Theodore Roosevelt's title?

[Cassie]

I think it's him.

[Danielle]

I think it's him too.

[Cassie]

Yeah. Yeah. And I guess if you're listening and you're like, yeah, I know John Muir, and that's kind of the extent of it, I will happily give some refreshers on what exactly he did. So first, he started the Sierra club back in 1892, and he served as its president for 22 years. He also went camping in Yosemite with President Theodore Roosevelt in 1903 and convinced him to start the National Park Service, which, of course, was the first of its kind in the entire world. And then the entire world followed. Sue. America's greatest idea, John Muir was behind. During this trip with President Theodore Roosevelt, the two men backpacked into Yosemite's Glacier Point and slept under the stars. And later, Muir said of the trip, camping with the President was a remarkable experience. I fairly fell in love with him. And that feeling was mutual. The President remembered Muir fondly for the rest of his life. So in a roundabout way, if it wasn't for John Muir, there also wouldn't be a National Park After Dark podcast, because national parks might not exist.

[Danielle]

That's true.

[Cassie]

So thank you.

[Danielle]

I'm hesitant to say anything because I know he's a complicated figure.

[Cassie]

Yes, he is. He's very controversial. And I will get into that for sure, because I think we should recognize that. But first, let's go into a little bit about his background. Muir was actually an immigrant to the United States. He was born in Scotland, and his family moved to Wisconsin when he was 11 years old. a young age, he fell in love with nature and started studying the plants and animals he saw in the Scottish Highlands. In college, he took botany and chemistry and geology, but never enough of any of them to earn a proper degree. For years, he worked odd jobs. Once at a wagon wheel factory, another time at a sawmill rake factory. But he also had a deep love of adventure. One time, he walked a thousand miles from Kentucky to Florida simply because he wanted to spend more time in nature. He chose this route by going the wildest, leafiest, and least trodden way I could find. After that, he wrote a book about his journey called A Thousand Mile Walk to the Gulf. When he got to Florida, he caught a boat to Cuba and sailed to Panama, where he caught another ride up the coast of California. And there he stayed put, and California became his home. When he was there, he made it a priority to be close to nature. In the Sierras, he built a cabin with Yosemite Creek running through the inside so he could fall asleep to the sound of water moving.

[Danielle]

Ooh, okay, Love that.

[Cassie]

The first white noise machine. I feel that so much. And that's where he wrote his most famous book, First Summer in the Sierra. Eventually, he married a California woman named Louisa Strencel. And became the father of two daughters, Wanda and Helen. He stayed put for a while, helping his father in law run an orchard. But Muir was not the kind of person to settle down to domestic life. And soon his eyes were wandering towards more adventures. His next adventures led him to Alaska, where he was deeply drawn to learning about the glaciers. He ended up returning seven times to the great polar north. Between 1879 and 1899, he would catalog over 300 glaciers and formulate a very new theory about these massive slabs of how these ice worked. He proposed that they weren't just blocks of ice, but they were actually living, moving and shaping the geology deep underneath them. At the time, this concept was scoffed at and Muir was ridiculed as an amateur. But we know this idea now as fundamental to glaciology.

[Danielle]

So, yeah, it's like that is what a glacier is.

[Cassie]

Yeah, they move. His Alaska trips took him deeper and deeper into the Arctic wilderness. History likes to remember Muir as the first Euro American to visit what's now Glacier Bay National Park. But Muir actually couldn't have made these trips without the indigenous Tlingit guides, who, unlike him, weren't just visiting these fjords and rivers. They lived and hunted on them and had for thousands of years. Unfortunately, it wasn't just historians that misremembered Muir's relationship to this national park, but even Muir himself. In his writings about his expeditions, he often doesn't name the Tlingit guides or give them credit for keeping him alive. So I think that this is a good moment to pause and address the fact that John Muir is a very controversial person in history. John Muir is widely celebrated for helping inspire the modern conservation movement and for advocating for the protection of wild landscapes that later became part of the National Park System. However, his legacy has become increasingly debated in recent years. Some historians and scholars have criticized Muir's writings for reflecting racist and derogatory attitudes towards Indigenous peoples and black Americans, particularly in some of his early journals and essays. His vision of wilderness also promoted the idea that nature was most valuable when it was untouched by humans, a perspective that often ignored or erased the long histories of indigenous stewardship on those same lands. While Muir's work played a major role in preserving many iconic landscapes, the way he framed wilderness and the people connected to it has led to ongoing discussions about how his legacy should be understood today. And I guess that's really just a long winded way to say that he was extremely racist. And that's very much reflected in his writings and his history. And it hasn't been until the more recent years that people have decided to look at both sides of that. Like, yes, he contributed to conservation. Yes, he is a major part of why the National Park Service exists. However, he had extremely racial prejudice, and also, he really disliked indigenous people who. For every single national park you ever go to, those are their original lands, and they stewarded them for thousands of years prior to them being part of the National Park Service.

[Danielle]

I mean, it's a very similar story with his bud, Theodore Roosevelt. And we saw that really, I think, come to the forefront during COVID Because, remember, his statue was being, like, torn down in New York. Do you remember that? I think I touched upon this a little bit in my river of Doubt episodes. Just to preface the same type of acknowledgement, you know, like, we're about to talk about him, and in a way that I don't want to come off. I don't. I didn't want it to come off as glorifying him. But, yes, we were giving him recognition for all the good things he did for the National Park Service. Of course, he's referred to as the conservation president for a reason. But also, let's talk about some of the not so great things about him. So same. Same type of thing, I think.

[Cassie]

Yeah, exactly. And, I mean, he did have a lot of contributions to the National Park Service, but he went about it in a. In a way that would not be accepted today, thankfully. And it's important to recognize that even in the story, the story only happened because he had guides that were indigenous to the area and knew where to take him. And he could have never experienced literally anything that happens in the story without them, and still, he doesn't really recognize them.

[Danielle]

He just omits them completely from the story, or.

[Cassie]

Okay, not completely, but very largely. Yeah. Okay. So we'll keep that all in mind as we venture to what's now Glacier Bay National Park. This park is 3.3 million acres of truly remote wilderness in Alaska. The bay has experienced at least four major glacial advances and retreats across history. This is a land where tidewater glaciers meet mountain peaks soaring up three miles above sea level. And true to the name of the park, it is filled with glaciers, with 50 of them having names. But there are a total of at least 1045 glaciers in the park, even now, today. Yeah.

[Danielle]

Wow.

[Cassie]

And I will say, this park, although it does have a ton of glaciers, it also has some of the highest records and recordings of glacial retreat in the world.

[Danielle]

Okay.

[Cassie]

So it's being hit really hard with climate change. The most. Well Known and most impressive is Marjorie Glacier, an active tidewater glacier that thousands of tourists come by cruise ship every year to view a calving into the ocean. Unfortunately, Marjorie is advancing 12 to 14ft per day thanks to rapid global warming. These days though, there is sadly no mention of how climate crisis is affecting the park on the federal government's website. Even though that is a major part of what is going on. It's a place where you can witness climate change firsthand.

[Danielle]

I mean, 12 to 14ft a day is nuts.

[Cassie]

Staggering. Yeah.

[Danielle]

You know, that's a, a change you can watch unfold right in front of you. Instead of having to have like a time. I just imagine like those time lapse cameras that create that footage over years and then you can see the change there. But that's something you can witness for yourself.

[Cassie]

Yeah. One thing that I've thought has been really incredible on our own personal adventures has been when we were in Kenai Fjords and we visit the glaciers over there. And on the way, when you're doing the hike to the glacier, I forget, do you remember the name of it?

[Danielle]

No. But even when you drive in, it's on the road to the visitor center.

[Cassie]

There are markers for the year and where the glacier used to be in the Harding Ice field.

[Danielle]

Oh yeah, that hike was, that was, that's the trip we did two times in a row. And so we went up to the. I, we did that hike back to back pretty much.

[Cassie]

Yeah. And it's a tough hike.

[Danielle]

It's toughie. It is tough.

[Cassie]

But when you're going in, there are all of these signs that show you how far that this glacier has retreated over years. And it's really incredible to see because they also have historic photos. And you're standing in front of it and it looks massive. Of course it's a glacier and you can see that it's taking up a lot of the landscape. But then when you look at the photos and you can compare from the photo you're looking at and the glacier in front of you, it really sinks in of how, how far these glaciers have retreated. And this park in particular is experiencing some of the largest recorded glacial retreats in history.

[Danielle]

Yeah. And it's just interesting to note that they're removing signage about climate change in a park that is dubbed after glaciers. Yeah. You know, it's just like, come on.

[Cassie]

And this park was specifically preserved because of the glaciers and, and studying them retreating.

[Danielle]

Actually, we don't talk, we don't talk about the glaciers anymore.

[Cassie]

Climate change isn't real.

[Danielle]

We. We don't need to talk about that. Just enjoy what we have. Okay.

[Cassie]

Just enjoy it while you have it. Because in 20 years, and you don't need.

[Danielle]

You don't need to understand it. You don't need to know anything about it.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Just kidding. That's why we're here.

[Cassie]

The federal government doesn't silence us. I mean, I'm sure they could if they really wanted to.

[Danielle]

Now I'm frightened, but it's okay.

[Cassie]

But we're not under regulations to not talk about.

[Danielle]

We're not under the Fight Club rules. Okay? We can talk about Fight Club if we want to talk about Fight Club.

[Cassie]

Yeah. Because we're not a part of Fight Club.

[Danielle]

We just really like Fight Club.

[Cassie]

Yeah. We just know about it. Okay.

[Danielle]

Anyway. Anyway.

[Cassie]

Anyway, Marjorie Grill is retreating 12 to 14ft per day, which is what got us into this. So the part of the park that we're actually going to today is known as Taylor Bay. And it's a remote area in the far south of the park where Brady Glacier is at. And if you are ever visiting there, you can look up at Brady Glacier and you can imagine the adventure that John Muir and a little dog named Stickeen had while they traveled across the ice. It was on Muir's second trip to Alaska in 1880, when his path intersected with Stickeen. In his children's book called Stickeen A Story of a Dog, Muir tells the story, and this is actually fun fact before he fully dive into this episode, is I have this book. Book. And it was sitting on my bookshelf for the entirety of that. I've lived with Al, which has been six years now, and I have never noticed it even one time. And I was just looking at my bookshelf the other day and I saw this, and I was like, wait a second, what is the story? And it's super short.

[Danielle]

I mean, it's a kid's book.

[Cassie]

Yeah, it is a kids book, allegedly. It's 81 pages, and this is like 1880s children's book, because I don't know any children's book that looks like this. But it does have illustrations in it. And here's one of Sticking crossing over an ice bridge.

[Danielle]

It's very text heavy is what you're trying to describe.

[Cassie]

Yeah. For a kid's book.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

It's so text heavy. But I found it and I thought it was super interesting. And if people are interested in actually reading this book themselves, you can read it. Or the National Park Service actually has an audiobook version of this where they have someone read it.

[Danielle]

National Park Service. Reach out to us. I will voice an audiobook for you.

[Cassie]

Wow. I might. Depending on how long it is, you have a voice.

[Danielle]

You have a better voice for it because you're more soft spoken and soothing.

[Cassie]

Yeah, but if this book isn't soft spoken, esque or soothing. If you're telling. Yeah, but it might not fit the

[Danielle]

Just saying we kind of like said that we. You can't control us. And we mean that. But we would still like to voice an audiobook for you.

[Cassie]

Yeah. I mean, we still love the National Park Service. Hire us.

[Danielle]

Just saying we're your girls. Like just. Yeah, you know where to find us.

[Cassie]

Yeah. Right.

[Danielle]

And yeah. And that's also a call out for anyone who's also involved with Is It Cake? Because Cassie really wants to be on Is It Cake.

[Cassie]

I love that you just threw that

[Danielle]

out there because we need to start planting it more.

[Cassie]

Yeah. If anyone's listening and you are a producer for Is It Cake, it would be my dream come true.

[Danielle]

And she's not even just saying that. Like, it's not a bit.

[Cassie]

I could cry right now just at the thought of me being on Is It Cake. You don't even have to air it. I just want to be on it. I just want to experience it.

[Danielle]

Okay.

[Cassie]

Sorry.

[Danielle]

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[Cassie]

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[Danielle]

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[Cassie]

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[Danielle]

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[Cassie]

I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can actually see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers seem to like keeping it too. Between sky high monthly bills, random fees, and those free perks that somehow cost more in the long run, it adds up. That's why Mint Mobile caught my attention. They're basically flipping the script on wireless by offering premium plans starting at just 415 bucks a month. When you compare that to what most people are paying with big carriers, you could be saving a serious amount of money every single month. And you're not sacrificing quality either. All Mint plans come with high speed data, unlimited talk and text and run on the nation's largest 5G network. So you're getting the same kind of service, just without the inflated price tag. They also make it super easy to switch. You can bring your own phone, keep your number and activate in minutes with an eim. No contracts, no hassle, and and straightforward savings. If I were looking to cut down my monthly expenses, this is absolutely where I'd start. There's really no reason to keep overpaying just because that's how it's always been. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop [e-mail] npad that's mintmobile.com npad upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 per month new customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Anyway, John Muir wrote a children's book about the story that I'm about to tell, so in it he hired a Tlingit guide, but he never tells the reader this guide's name or any descriptions of the man. He actually just refers to him as Joe the Hunter, which I think just kind of gives you an idea of how much he just was. Not acknowledging the indigenous guides here, this guide took Muir to Fort Wrangel to pick up a missionary for his travel companion, Reverend S.H. young, which I'll say he did say his name in the whole book. And when Mr. Young climbed into their canoe, he brought a little dog with him who jumped into the boat too, and promptly curled himself up amongst their gear. Muir was appalled by the sight of a little dog on their voyage and told the Reverend absolutely not a small dog could not go with them. And he even said, such a little helpless creature will only be in the way.

[Danielle]

Okay, well, I don't like that. I don't trust him automatically.

[Cassie]

Yeah, how do you trust a guy who doesn't like dogs? You don't. Small dogs. I love small dogs. But Mr. Young launched into a sales pitch for the dog, telling Mirror how amazing he was and how the dog could, quote, endure cold and hunger like a bear, swim like a seal, and was wondrously wise and cunning. Young explained that the dog had originally been given to his wife by an Irish prospector in Sitka, Alaska. When the couple later arrived in Fort Wrangell, the local Tlingit people quickly embraced the little dog and began calling him Stickeen. The name refers to the Stickeen river and the Stickeen Tlingit people who live along it. The Word is generally understood to describe the river itself, often translated as great river or muddy river, a reference to the glacial sediment that colors its waters. Young thought that this name was fitting for him, so he kept it. And coincidentally enough, it was a Stickeen guide that Mira had actually hired to lead him up Stephen's Passage and into what would someday be named Taylor Bay to the foot of Brady Glacier. At first, Muir wasn't impressed with the little dog at all. He described Stickeen as worthless, a toy dog, even sluggish and helpless. In Muir's mind, this was not the kind of animal you brought along on a rough expedition through the wild coast of Alaska. But despite his skepticism, there were a few things about Stickeen that caught his attention. The dog moved with what Muir called a fox like grace, and his shaggy coat seemed perfectly built for the cold, damp weather of the north. Muir especially loved the dog's tail. He later wrote that Stocheen's fine tail was about as airy and shady as a squirrel's, which I guess is a nice description, maybe.

[Danielle]

Yeah. But he just called him worthless.

[Cassie]

I know. He's like, you're worthless, but you're kind of cute.

[Danielle]

I don't know. That's what I got from cautiously optimistic about what's about to happen.

[Cassie]

Yeah, unlike anyone who talks down about little dogs can do anything. Except for some things. Still, Muir couldn't quite place what kind of dog he was looking at. He thought some sort of terrier mix, and he didn't spend much more time thinking about it. But indigenous communities of the Pacific Northwest had long kept several kinds of dogs beyond the well known sled dogs and huskies. Huskies, small terrier like dogs were common companions and skilled hunting partners. Rather than pulling sleds, these dogs were trained to drive animals like elk, mountain goats, and river otters towards hunters, or push them into the water where they could be taken more easily. They were named, valued, and treated as a part of the community, even though they didn't usually live inside the home. Whether Stickeen descended from one of these indigenous hunting dogs is impossible to know, because Muir never really inquired more about it. But the little dog who had climbed into the canoe at Fort Wrangel may have had far deeper roots in the region than Muir ever realized. At first, he thought of Stickeen as strangely aloof and reclusive. He seemed to sleep a lot and was not particularly curious. But soon enough, Muir began to notice some interesting behaviors. As soon as there was any discussion of making land on the riverbank, the Stickeen would perk up he wouldn't wait for them to reach the shore. He'd just belly flop right into the freezing cold glacier water and swim himself to land. He was always the first one out of the canoe and the last one to get back in. In fact, he would disappear as soon as it was time to pack up and go, almost as a protest of wanting to stay longer. They tried leaving without him to teach him a lesson, but he just swim out in the icy cold water to the boat, and they'd have to lift him up, dripping wet, into the canoe by the scruff of his neck. This was not the behavior Muir expected from a cute little toy dog of the kind he'd met back in American cities. And Muir was genuinely surprised to see that Stickeen also loved hunting with the Tlingit guides for ducks and seals. He's like, these aren't like the dogs in sweaters I've met in. In California.

[Danielle]

Yeah, yeah. I'm envisioning Toto kind of.

[Cassie]

Yeah, he does kind of. If you can kind of see my book, he does look like Toto a little bit.

[Danielle]

But look at that squirrel tail.

[Cassie]

He does have a squirrel, too. He's so cute.

[Danielle]

He is cute.

[Cassie]

Yeah, he's just vibing. He likes the outdoors. One night, after the group had landed along the river, they noticed something unusual. The water seemed to glow in the dark. Thousands of salmon were pushing upstream, their bodies stirring the water so thickly that the river shimmered with a faint natural light. Curious, Mir and their guide decided to take the canoe back out and run a nearby rapid through the glowing current. But they left Stickeen behind as the canoe surged through the rushing water. The backs of the salmon flashed all around them in the moonlight. But then Muir noticed something else moving through the river behind them. A dark streak cutting through the current like some sort of strange creature racing after the boat. And lo and behold, it was Stickeen running a river rapid.

[Danielle]

It's like, wait for me.

[Cassie]

Like, wait. This looks like fun.

[Danielle]

You forgot me. Probably by accident, for sure.

[Cassie]

By accident, because obviously I would love this.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

Excuse me. This little dog had thrown himself into the river and was swimming hard through the rapids to keep up with them. Muir later wrote that Stickeen seemed to prefer his company above anyone else's on the expedition, often abandoning Reverend Young and the Tlingit guides to follow him wherever he went, including, obviously through river rabbits.

[Danielle]

They always gravitate towards the one that doesn't want them.

[Cassie]

Yeah, yeah. It's so. I feel like it's so typical for a little dog to like, warm their way into a guy's heart that didn't like them.

[Danielle]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's like, before you know it, we're gonna be best buds.

[Cassie]

Yeah. My dad is, like, the most wholesome person ever, because. Hi, dad. If you're listening to this, because I know he listens to the podcast, but he's like, 6 foot 4, and he has a Chihuahua that he loves so much, and they'll wear matching sweaters sometimes, and it's so cute. You've met Taco.

[Danielle]

Yeah, Yeah, I met Taco years ago.

[Cassie]

He's still thriving.

[Danielle]

Taco, he is cute.

[Cassie]

He is really cute. Yeah.

[Danielle]

I'm absolutely floored that you do not have a small dog.

[Cassie]

Me too. Me too.

[Danielle]

I really am so surprised by that, because it feels like it's been years in the making. And, like, when you got Ember, I wasn't super surprised that you got her,

[Cassie]

because I need a hiking friend.

[Danielle]

You need, like, a hiking companion. And I know Tucker's around, but obviously he's a bit older, and his abilities have shifted over time. So I'm like, okay, that makes sense. You know, you just got the house in the mountains, and you just need, like, another adventure, buddy.

[Cassie]

But then surely I thought another one was coming.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

And I do. I do really want a small dog. And maybe this isn't. This has been my thought process behind not getting a small dog, and now this story obviously proves that I'm wrong. But my thought process behind not getting a small dog is because it's kind of rough where I am in the mountains. We get so much snow in the winter time, where I have to dig out places for Tucker to even walk. And Ember, she gets through it fine. She doesn't care if it's over her head. She just hops and she's fine. But I've kind of been like, well, in the winter, what is the small dog gonna do up here? Not much. And then there's also a lot of wildlife around here, so I've been nervous about that. But then I this story with St. Keen. I mean, he's in with grizzlies and go, maybe I just need a little terrier.

[Danielle]

Yeah. See, I think of, like, I just remember my first time in Costa Rica and Panama, and when I went there, there were so many street dogs, and they were all little mutts. Like, little. Maybe £25 or less.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

I'm talking. And they were, like, just running that place. Like, yeah.

[Cassie]

They just live their own lives.

[Danielle]

And every once in a while, people would Be like, oh, yeah, like one of them got got by a snake or something like that. But for the most part, they're super adaptable. And I just think that we have this preconceived notion of small dogs are incapable of holding their own when it comes to. Not personality wise, because we know they're fresh, but just like, in the elements and things like that. And I think that couldn't be farther from the truth in certain situations. But I think if you got some sort of terrier mix or my. I'm not like, I understand your fears.

[Cassie]

Really want a shih tzu, a Paris

[Danielle]

Hilton Chihuahua type of thing.

[Cassie]

My dream. I really want to. I want a shih tzu so bad. But that's what I mean is, could a shih tzu handle it up here? I don't know. Maybe.

[Danielle]

What were shih tzus originally bred for?

[Cassie]

I don't know. That's a really good question.

[Danielle]

Let's see.

[Cassie]

I'll look. Probably a hunter.

[Danielle]

Really? No, I don't think so. For some reason, I feel like it was like I have royalty in my mind.

[Cassie]

Shih tzus were bred for sweaters. What, to wear them, not to be them. Oh, sicko. What is wrong with you?

[Danielle]

Okay. The wool.

[Cassie]

Okay.

[Danielle]

The way you said that, I was like, what? Okay, let's see. All right, here we go. This is an AI overview, so let's take it with a grain of salt. Yeah. Okay.

[Cassie]

Jeez.

[Danielle]

You're gonna love. Okay, it's all coming together. Why you want a shih tzu now? Okay. Shih tzus were bred specifically to be affectionate companion dogs and lap warmers for Chinese royalty and Tibetan monks. Designed to bring joy and sit on silk cushions, they also served as tiny alert alarm systems and palaces to bark at intruders. Their name means lion dog, as they were bred to resemble sacred small lions. Bred to be pampered pets for Chinese emperors and empresses during the Ming and Quing Dynasties. Kept in palaces to warn of unexpected visitors, they were considered holy yada yada. So basically their little.

[Cassie]

My dream dog.

[Danielle]

Yeah. Okay. We don't need to know anything more about.

[Cassie]

One day I'll have one.

[Danielle]

I hope they would make. If you got, like, a little girl, you could put a bow in her little hair.

[Cassie]

We would wear matching outfits.

[Danielle]

I just think of them and all the, like, you know, the crusty gunk that they get all over their face and.

[Cassie]

Yeah, we'd have to have an established groomer for sure.

[Danielle]

Yeah. All right. Well, Stickeen was nothing like that.

[Cassie]

Sticking did not see a groomer. He's not bred for laps. He is a hardy terrier. And right now, his story. He's in.

[Danielle]

He's in a salmon.

[Cassie]

Glaciated landscapes. Yeah. And of course, at this point, Muir has noticed that Stickeen is pretty hardy. He also noticed he didn't mind bad weather, and he was hiking wherever John Muir would go. Muir's mind was beginning to change from seeing him as a worthless toy dog. In fact, he began to recognize that Stickeen made a perfect companion for a mountaineer like himself. The dog even started following him straight up onto glaciers themselves. One time, Muir saw Bloody Prince on the ice and realized that the jagged glacial ice had cut his poor little paws. Stickeen didn't complain or cry about his injuries, but Muir stopped and rigged together what he called some moccasins out of his handkerchief.

[Danielle]

Oh, so all of a sudden, here it goes.

[Cassie]

You're creating shoes for him.

[Danielle]

Yeah. And that's how it all begins.

[Cassie]

Yeah, that's how they get you.

[Danielle]

Yep.

[Cassie]

They pulled out your heartstrings, and you see they need a little help, and you make them shoes. Stickine was so uncomplaining about his injuries and fearless in their adventures that Muir wondered if he even had real feelings or awareness. Stickeen didn't demand petting and affection like most dogs he'd met prior to this, which he found odd. Muir even compares Stikine to the Greek philosopher Diohannes in his book, who is known for rejecting comfort and choosing a simple life close to nature. Stikine was making Muir reevaluate dogs, how they felt, their personalities. And in Stikine, he was seeing more and more similarities between a dog, dog and himself.

[Danielle]

I, too, do that. Like, ah. You remind me of my favorite Greek.

[Cassie]

What is it, philosopher? You two have the same mind.

[Danielle]

Freaking weirdo. John Muir.

[Cassie]

It's a different time. You couldn't scroll. You just read a lot of literature?

[Danielle]

No. Well, not only. I'm not even saying that. I'm just saying, like, for him to look at a dog that has a different personality than the other dogs he's encountered, and he's like, what is this, a philosopher? Is this. Could this be. Agree.

[Cassie]

Man discovers dog has feelings.

[Danielle]

It's like, oh, my God.

[Cassie]

Like, anyone who's been around a dog for, like, 30 seconds knows they have feelings.

[Danielle]

Yeah, but. Okay, let's make it a big thing. I'm sure it's about to be all about John Muir and his revelation, discovery.

[Cassie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Danielle]

Please tell me more about this.

[Cassie]

They traveled north through Stephen's Passage, a long channel bordered by steep, forested mountains and glaciers, then explored remote glacial fjords where ice carved valleys stretched deep into the mainland. From there, they paddled into the Icy Strait, a much wider and more exposed waterway, before continuing into Cross Sound, where the Inside Passage opens out towards the Gulf of Alaska. Their goal was to reach the Fairweather Range, a remote stretch of coastal mountains packed with massive glaciers and sprawling ice fields. As they traveled farther west, they rounded Vancouver Point, where the landscape began to feel more exposed. Towering ice cliffs rose in the distance and storms moved through the mountains with little warning, giving the coastline a more ominous edge. Eventually, they entered a broad, quiet inlet that had not yet been formally mapped, a place we now know as Taylor Bay, surrounded by steep mountains and glacial ice. They chose a sheltered spot in a dense spruce grove to make camp while their guide set off into the mountains to hunt for goats. Muir, Reverend Young and Stickeen stayed behind to explore the shoreline before nightfall. Almost immediately, Muir noticed signs that the glacier was active and advancing. Trees had been torn apart, pushed over or partially buried, clear evidence of the force of moving ice. The scene fascinated him. He knew there was more to learn here, and by the time they returned to camp, he. He had already decided to come back the next day to explore it more. The next morning, Muir woke early and immediately saw that the weather had turned. Wind tore through the inlet and rain swept sideways across the landscape. It was the kind of storm that would have kept most people in their tents. But Muir wasn't most people. He believed storms revealed something essential about the natural world, writing that some of nature's greatest lessons could only be found in its harshest conditions. Conditions. So instead of waiting it out, he grabbed a piece of bread and slipped quietly out of camp, hoping to get onto the glacier before the others stirred. Also, we know this now as not preparing or planning very well at all,

[Danielle]

like this handful of bread should do.

[Cassie]

And a raging storm. Yeah, great. Perfect conditions. He assumed Reverend Young, the guide, and especially Stickeen would stay behind. But he was wrong. He had only gone a short distance when he heard movement behind him. Stickeen came trotting through the wind, already soaked and ready for an adventure. Mir tried to send him back sternly, yelling at him over the sounds of the storm. Now, Stickeen, what has gotten into your queer noodle now? You must be daft. The wild day has nothing for you is what he said.

[Danielle]

Didn't he just make him moccasins?

[Cassie]

Yeah, we thought you liked him, Mirror.

[Danielle]

Yeah, don't call him a Noodle brain. What did you say?

[Cassie]

I called him a queer noodle, but I think that's a queer noodle.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

How you would say noodle brain now? Because I don't think he would word it that way now, but yeah.

[Danielle]

And daft means like dumb, stupid.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Okay, another. I have a pro and con list going on mentally for John Muir, and

[Cassie]

the cons are rising.

[Danielle]

Let me just say the tallies in the con side are stacking up. Well.

[Cassie]

Stickeen did not care about being called daft or anything else. And he wasn't known for being obedient. He had a strong independent streak and seemed as thrilled by the bad weather as Muir was. He refused to go back to camp, and so Muir gave up and let him tag along. He gave him a bit of his bread and off they went to explore the big glacier. But he had no idea what they were about to get into. Once it was all said and done, it would be one of the scariest days of both of their lives. The wind was blowing so hard, they couldn't safely climb out onto the ice without risking being knocked off balance. Instead, they climbed up among the trees along the edge where they could take shelter and watch the storm unfold. Once the wind eased slightly, they began moving along the eastern edge of the glacier. After about three miles, Muir stepped out onto the ice, using his ax to cut footholds and make a path when needed. Rain was still coming down steadily and he kept a close eye on the clouds, watching for any sign that they might turn to snow. After a time, the sky began to open just enough and the glacier stretched out ahead of them like a wide smooth plain, almost like an ice prairie, seemingly free of crevasses. With that, they pushed farther west. But when they reached the far side, the landscape changed completely. The glacier was fractured with crevices.

[Danielle]

Haha. Oh no.

[Cassie]

Gotcha was not. The glacier was fractured with crevasses. Deep near vertical cracks formed as the ice shifted and moved.

[Danielle]

Is this quick question, is this how we got into the whole debacle in the first place? It's just a mispronunciation maybe?

[Cassie]

I think so.

[Danielle]

I'm not trying to redeem ourselves, but

[Cassie]

no, crevice is a real word and I think no. We had a whole conversation of what's the difference between crevice and crevasse? And we decided there wasn't one. Oh, we don't revisit this. Actually, I.

[Danielle]

For a second I was like, could we have just. It was just a simple no miss. Okay? No, no, it sure wasn't okay. No, it's fine. We've. We know now.

[Cassie]

I like when people find our podcast for the first time and that comes up and they're like, oh, just so you know, there's. It'll be a really nice comment and be like, hi. Just so you know, the difference between Crevice and Crevasse is this. It's like, oh, I hope you stay long enough for this journey. Because we figure it out.

[Danielle]

Especially when those comments come from present day. It's like, just so you know, that's been.

[Cassie]

It's been five years. We've grown, we've evolved. We know.

[Danielle]

Like, hey, girly. Just so you know, it's also been five years and we understand.

[Cassie]

But imagine if we didn't. It would be nice to be like, actually, after five years, I feel like you should just leave it. If we have been to be super embarrassing if you told us, after five years of us doing this, just let us live.

[Danielle]

Yeah, there's a girl. If she's listening, it's cool. But I don't know if she is anymore. But there's at Chaska's Veterinary Hospital, one of the receptionists, her name's Madison, I'm with, I go to that hospital all the time just because he gets like, labrella. And we're just in there frequently. And so me and this girl Madison have kind of just like, we know each other now. She's always like, ah, Josque's mom. Hey. And then turns out she also goes to one of the Pilates studios I go to. So sometimes we'll, like, work out together, at least in the same vicinity. And like a week or two ago, I walk in and I set up my mat, and she was next to me, and she's like, oh, I just started listening to your podcast. And she knew it existed for. Since, like, I started going there, but she was hesitant to start listening because she thought it was going to be scary. And you know me, I'm like, I'm not going to advocate for ourselves. I'm like, yeah, okay, I get it. I'm not like, no, really, you should try. I'm like, heard you. It's fine. Like, you don't have to listen. And. But she did. She's like, yeah, I started listening and I'm like, oh, which one? And she said like, I don't know, something crazy, like episode three or something. I'm like, girl, It's like you have 300 plus episodes to choose from if

[Cassie]

you pick our worst audio.

[Danielle]

And you do that. But I guess you guys, I don't know. She's like.

[Cassie]

I listened and she didn't really have

[Danielle]

much follow up information.

[Cassie]

Well, we have our answer, but yeah,

[Danielle]

Madison, I don't know if you make it this far, if you're still stuck back in 2022, but we hope you

[Cassie]

find us here eventually and see our growth. K Pop Demon Hunters, Haja Boy's Breakfast

[Danielle]

Meal and Hunt Tricks Meal have just dropped at McDonald's.

[Cassie]

They're calling this a battle for the fans.

[Danielle]

What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja boys could take

[Cassie]

breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day. It is an honor to share. No, it's our honor. It is our larger honor.

[Danielle]

No, really, stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle.

[Cassie]

Pick a meal to pick a side. Ba da ba ba ba and participate in McDonald's while supplies last. Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks, Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. Anyway, we're getting on so many sorry tangents today, it's crazy. So anyway, he's found a crevasse. It's some of them are staggeringly deep, and Mira looked over the edge of one and estimated it dropped nearly 1,000ft, like standing atop a hundred story building. Others stretched wider and wider, some nearly 30ft across. Muir moved carefully, choosing his steps and making controlled jumps where he had to, but Stickeen did the opposite. The little dog rushed ahead, leaping the gaps without hesitation. He would run straight to the edge and spring across, landing lightly every time. Watching him made Muir uneasy. The crossings were dangerous enough on their own, but Stikine's confidence only made it more unsettling. Mir wondered if the dog didn't fully understand the danger, describing it as kind of a dullness of perception, as though his courage came without any sense of self preservation. As they moved across the glacier, Muir spoke to him, urging him to be more careful. Though he had no idea whether Stickeen understood him, he estimated the glacier was about seven miles wide. They followed it as it curved around a massive point of land and jutted out into the bay and discovered a new branch of the glacier. Here the ice gave way to chaos. The glacier dropped sharply, splintering into what Muir called an ice cascade, a violent spill of ice that resembled a frozen waterfall. Massive blocks tilted and leaned against one another, split by deep, shadowed Crevasses, the whole formation appearing unstable, as if it could break loose at any, any moment. He badly wanted to follow this new branch all the way out to the sea, but he knew there wasn't enough daylight for that kind of detour, so he turned around to go back towards camp. But that's when things started to get really dangerous. They quickly found themselves in a tangled maze of crevasses. And then the snow arrived, exactly what Mira had been watching for and was worried about. Soon the two were moving through a full blizzard in near whiteout conditions. They were leaping across wide cracks through the falling snow, but making almost no progress. Time and time again, they were forced to double back. When they reached gaps too wide to cross, Muir would stop, cut footholds with his axe to steady himself, then launch himself across these. The danger was intense, but it energized him, made him feel alert and alive. And Stickeen seemed to feel it too. Still, the pace was painfully slow. Muir began to wonder if they would be forced to spend the night out on the glacier until daylight returned and they could find their way back to camp. Stickeen, he realized, would likely have endured that without hesitation. But they were soaked, cold and hungry, so they kept moving. The snowfall thickened until Muir could no longer see far enough ahead to judge a safe route. Before long, they came to a deep crevasse that stretched out in front of them in a long, unbroken line, disappearing into the storm. They followed it, searching for a place to cross. Eventually, Muir spotted a section that might work, but the jump was scarier than the other, and even if he made it, there was no guarantee they wouldn't be forced to turn back again. He stopped to consider his options. They could retreat towards the forest on the west side, build a fire and wait out the night. But looking at the terrain, he realized the eastern side was now just as close to. So he made the decision. Muir jumped, sticky, and followed without hesitation, clearing the gap as if it were nothing. Muir hoped they were past the worst of the crevasses, but they had no such luck. Almost immediately, they came face to face with the most terrifying fisher yet. He searched for another way across, but quickly realized the crack connected with the one they had just crossed, exactly what he had feared. As far as he could see, it stretched on without end, the opening 40 to 50ft wide in places, as wide as a good sized river. And it was clearly impossible to cross. They were stranded on a narrow island of ice, completely surrounded by deep, impassable crevasses, and their options were limited. They could try to jump back the way they had come, but that meant leaping from a lower position to a higher one, far more dangerous than before. Or they could attempt what Muir called a sliver bridge, a thin strip of ice spanning the crevasse near its center. These bridges form when a crevasse widens, but a narrow seam of ice remains intact, like a piece of wood splitting, but not fully breaking apart. Even in the best conditions, crossing one would be unnerving, like walking a balance beam over a massive drop. But this one looked old and unstable, worn down and fragile. And reaching. It would be worse. To get there, they would have to climb down a nearly vertical wall of ice, cross the narrow bridge, and then climb up another steep wall on the other side, all of it in driving snow, soaked through, shivering, running on almost no food, and with night closing in fast. So he started chopping out a kind of ladder down off the cliff to reach the sliver bridge. To do it, he had to create a hollow spot where his knee could rest, then go backwards down the wall and leaning over to chop another hollow where he could turn and place his heel. This is how Myr made his way down to the crossing. Each foothold had to be precisely carved, otherwise he could slip and fall to his death. Each one had to be sturdy enough that it would hold him while he chiseled yet another one. Stickeen followed Mir down the footholds without hesitation, carefully making his way towards the sliver bridge. But when they reached it, everything changed. The little dog put his head past Mir's shoulder and looked down into the abyss. Then he turned and looked straight at him for the first time that entire long, punishing day. Stickeen hesitated. He let out a low whimper of protest. What mirror described as clearly as if he were saying, surely you're not going to that awful place.

[Danielle]

Yeah, because that's how he. Surely you are not. It's. There's the Greek mythologer or whatever. What did I just say? Mythologer. Philosopher.

[Cassie]

Philosopher.

[Danielle]

I almost said Greek mythology, but combined it. That's Stickeen.

[Cassie]

All this time, Muir had seemed skeptical about whether an animal was really aware or emotional. But now he recognized for the first time that Stocheen wasn't unfeeling. All this time, he was actually really brave. And now his bravery had seen its limit, just like Muir's own courage was flagging. Something in that moment shifted the dog's expression, the sound of his voice. It was so familiar, so human in its fear, that Muir found himself speaking to him as if they were Facing it together, he tried to steady him, telling him they would make it across, though it would not be easy. And if they slipped, he added grimly, at least they would have a fine resting place in the marine below. And of course, those weren't really comforting words to Stickeen. Whether he understood them or not, it didn't do anything to comfort him, to know that if they died, they'd have a nice grave. Stackeen turned away and searched for another root, but there was none. Meanwhile, Muir stepped out onto the narrow strip of ice, moving slowly, never daring to look back. Behind him, Stakine cried out. When Muir reached the far side, the dog's protests only grew louder. He called back to him, first gently, then more firmly, trying to convince him that the path was safe and that he had cut it smooth with his axe. He's like, no, look, it's safe. I did it. I imagine him talking in like a high pitched voice. He's like, no, no, come on, it's okay. I. Look, I. I did this for you. You can cross.

[Danielle]

I would like to imagine him like that, but I can't.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Not after the way he's been speaking to himself thus far. Yeah.

[Cassie]

Stakine would pause as if listening, as if weighing the decision, and then break back into desperate howling. Muir inched his way across the bounds beam of the bridge, never daring to look back at the little dog crying in agony behind him. But once he was on the other side, Stickeen yelled even harder. Muir started calling to him that it was now the dog's turn to cross the abyss. He tried, using a consoling tone, telling him how he'd cleared it with his axe, making it smooth and easy to traverse. Stickeen would pause for a moment, seeming to consider these words, then resume his howling. Then Muir would try a stern voice. The whole time, Mir watched the dog on the other side of the bridge. Everything and Sticking's face and body language was just like a human being working up the courage to do something that felt impossible. But it took Stikeen so long to manage the feat that Muir thought for sure he was going to have to leave him behind. He even tried pretending to leave, climbing away from him, out of sight, while the dog howled and pleaded to wait for him. Then Muir came back and called the dog one last time. Stickeen became calm, visibly took a deep breath in, then crouched down on his belly and started scooching across the ice bridge. He never lifted his feet, but just dragged himself across inch by inch. Eventually, he reached the other side this way. And Muir was up on the cliff above, reaching down his hands to him. But Stocine didn't budge. He steadied himself and looked up, studying all the chinks and footholds Muir had made for him. And then, in one fluid motion, Stickeen went springing up the cliff. He rushed past Mirror and was safe at the top. Well done. Well done, little brave boy. A Mirror shouted as Stakine reached the top and the two were finally reunited. He tried to grab him, to steady him, maybe even to hold him for a moment, but Stickeen was far too overwhelmed for that. The little dog was shaking all over. Bursting with energy and relief, he tore off into wild loops around Muir, then threw himself onto the ice, rolling and twisting, only to spring back up and race off again.

[Danielle]

It's like John Muir. I can, if I could please just tell you really quickly. That's called the Zoomies.

[Cassie]

If you've never heard John Muir, these are the zoomies that dogs get when they're very excited. A revelation.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

In dog behavior, Mirror had never seen such a sudden shift from pure terror to complete, unrestrained joy. For weeks, Stickeen had seemed reserved, almost stoic. But now that composure was gone. He barked, ran, spun, and leapt as if he couldn't contain. But he had just survived. He had faced the possibility of death and made it across. And now, with the danger behind him, he seemed to feel every bit of what it meant to still be alive.

[Danielle]

Yeah. He's like, don't ever make me do that again.

[Cassie]

Yeah. Then I wrote after that, it was like, the best Zoomies ever. Yeah, the best Zoomies of his life. Especially that he noted that this wasn't something he did before. You know, some dogs just get really excited, and they get the Zoomies kind of often. It seems like Stickeen wasn't like that. So this was a big moment, a celebration.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

But after the celebration, he realizes again that the night's closing in and they still really needed to get off the glacier. So Muir began making his way down with Stickeen still darting around, his heels energized and seemingly restored. After the crossing, the crevasses they encountered on the descent no longer felt as threatening, not after what they had just survived. Only when darkness fully settled over them did Stickeen finally calm, falling back into his usual steady foxlight trot. Before long, the ice gave way to rocky moraine and then to dense brush and trees as they pushed their way through the undergrowth. Then they saw it. The glow of their campfire ahead. They could smell the smoke before they reached it. And with it came the weight of everything they just endured. Muir felt his knees begin to shake with exhaustion. It was around 10 o' clock when they finally stumbled into camp. While they had been gone, Reverend Young had been visited by Hoonah Klinkit hunters traveling through the area who shared porpoise meat and wild strawberries. Muir and Stickeen were both starving. They ate quickly, then collapsed into bed. But sleep that night did not come easily. Stickeen twitched and stirred beside him, letting out small sounds as if he was still, still caught in the Crossing glacier. Muir lay awake, replaying it all. The narrow bridge, the drop below, the slow, careful steps, over and over. The same moment returned, refusing to let either of them fully rest after surviving the blizzard on the glacier together, Muir and Stakine were inseparable. For the rest of the expedition, Stickeen would only eat what Muir would feed him and slept pressed against him in the canoe. It wasn't until many years after their adventure that that Muir wrote down his story. He told it so many times to Wanda and Helen, his daughters, and they loved it so much that they insisted he write it into a children's book. But even looking back after such a long time, Muir recognized that Stickeen had changed how he viewed the shared mortality of all beings. He wrote through Stickeen as through a window. I have ever since been looking with deeper sympathy into all my fellow mortals. Ah.

[Danielle]

Wow, Stickeen, good job. Just being you and changing how somebody thinks, that's just so crazy to me that someone had to learn that. I feel like it's something that you're just. It's just you're born with. I don't know. You just know. I. I don't know. That's so strange to me.

[Cassie]

The sentiment of a dog changing the way you view the world is something that we've seen a lot through history and through people. You know, you see people befriend animals or give a lot of credit to dogs who save their lives emotionally, I mean, emotional support, dogs that are for people. You have. There's so many ways that dogs have changed the perspective of people. And to see that written down in a story and to hear him say, you know, this changed the whole way. I not only look at dogs, but of all living beings. It's like, it's so beautiful that a little dog could do that to someone who didn't. I mean, I feel like I was born with those feelings. So I'm glad he got there eventually. And it's nice that a dog was the facilitator behind that.

[Danielle]

Someone had to do it, I guess. Stickeen's like, okay, let's. Let's catch up. Okay.

[Cassie]

If you're alive, you are worth something.

[Danielle]

I don't know, it's just. Okay. I mean. Yeah, I agree. Glad we got there. But it was a journal. Yeah.

[Cassie]

He's a full grown adult. Near embarrassing. Okay.

[Danielle]

Imagine just moving through the world, not thinking. I don't know. And I know people. Like, I, I'm very aware that people hold different. I mean, especially when we travel, you know, like going to different places throughout the world where different cultures hold different feelings about animals and like how they're treated or viewed or whatever. Like, I, I very much understand that that is a very real thing. I'm not just saying this as a blanket statement. It's just.

[Cassie]

They're wrong.

[Danielle]

They're wrong.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Thank you. Here I am trying to be like a media trained, like. But you're right, that's how I feel.

[Cassie]

So there it is.

[Danielle]

Those are my feelings.

[Cassie]

You don't think animals have feelings? You're wrong.

[Danielle]

Period. And I don't want the anthropomorphism community to come after me because they're also wrong. Don't even get me started. Just kidding. There's a time and place for that and I understand that, but you can't in all seriousness, truly approach me and say that you don't think a dog

[Cassie]

experiences sadness or anxiety, happiness or anxiety or. Yeah, just. Or love.

[Danielle]

It just. It's such a narrow minded way of thinking about the world to me to think that it's like you're putting yourself at the center of the universe of like. Yeah, well, we can't ascribe human emotions onto other things. It's like we're only one of a bazillion species out there who's to say,

[Cassie]

and we are animals. Just to clarify.

[Danielle]

Yeah, it's just, I don't know, it gets me riled up because it's like we're. By saying that and by holding that argument about anthropomorphism and things like that, it's basically saying we have ownership over all emotions so we'll see if other animals can live up to that, but we're just not sure.

[Cassie]

And I think that's bullshit and that's science.

[Danielle]

Thanks for coming to our TED talk, National Park Service. You know how to reach us if you agree.

[Cassie]

We want our scientific background.

[Danielle]

Yeah, I have a biology degree, so. And very much like John Muir in the beginning when you were like, he said, you said something about. He did like a Bunch of classes and stuff, but then never fully did a degree.

[Cassie]

Yeah. And all of these different subjects. Yeah.

[Danielle]

Yeah. So I have a bio degree, but the only reason I have a Bachelor of Arts and not a B.S. a Bachelor of Science, is because I refused to do organic chemistry, which is so rare. Refused. It was the only class that differentiated that. And so instead of doing the Bachelor of Science, I elected to do a Bachelor of Arts in biology and environmental science minor. Because I'm like, I'm not fucking doing organic chemistry, man. You can't make me do that.

[Cassie]

Organic is hard. Yeah.

[Danielle]

But, you know, your best friend Amy was my chemistry partner.

[Cassie]

That's so funny.

[Danielle]

Such a. Before I knew you existed. Synchronicities. And she's so smart.

[Cassie]

She's so smart. Yeah. She used to, like, tutor me in high school.

[Danielle]

She carried me.

[Cassie]

She's a doctor now, and as she

[Danielle]

should be, because I watched her in chemistry class, and she was great.

[Cassie]

She was incredible. She didn't. And I'm sure this is how she got through college, too, but she. I would be studying my ass off for tests and things, and she was like, oh, yeah. I just paid attention in class and read the chapter. Never would look at it again.

[Danielle]

What? Like, it's hard.

[Cassie]

But she just. Yeah, that was. She just understands things so well, and for the first. Once she. Once you explain something to her once, she just understands it and that's.

[Danielle]

It feels like sort of how photographic memory works, only not visual.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

There must be another term for it. I would know.

[Cassie]

Listen to this podcast. So if you're listening.

[Danielle]

Hi, Amy.

[Cassie]

One of the greatest things you can compliment her on is her brain. And that's what she appreciates the most, so.

[Danielle]

Well, I sure appreciated it in Keen State 2000. Whatever 11 or whatever that was. Thanks, girl. Yeah.

[Cassie]

Well, before we close out the. The story, I will go into what happened to Stickeen after, because it's a mystery of what happened to him. After that trip into Glacier Bay, Muir headed back to California and never saw him again. He wrote to Mr. Young, anxiously asking about his canine friend. But Mr. Young wrote back to say that Stickeen had been stolen away by Taurus, who left on a steamer from Fort Wrangell. Muir ends his book by saying in his mind, Stickeen would always be immortal. But doesn't that seem odd, since what made Stickeen so astonishing to Muir in that courageous moment on the ice bridge was the fact of Stickeen's mortality. It was their shared fear of death and their identical joy at survival that had so amazed him so Maybe it's even better to think of Stickeen as a globetrotting adventurer. And when he got on that steamer, it was off to yet another incredible journey into the great wild world. And that's my story of John Muir and Stickeen.

[Danielle]

Oh, Stickeen. I hope he went off and lived his best life somewhere. I can totally see when. At first, when you said he was stolen, it's like I. Yeah, I was startled, but then I was like. People were just like, oh, you're a cute little dog. You're coming home with me.

[Cassie]

So you need a home, don't you?

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

Get over here, get in this sweater,

[Danielle]

get on this ship, and I'll bring you back to a nice, comfy home

[Cassie]

somewhere, hopefully to live out the rest of your days in comfort. You deserve it.

[Danielle]

Well, thanks so much. I think that was a great redemption dog story.

[Cassie]

Thank you. Yeah. Much happier.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

Like I'm still on glaciers.

[Danielle]

Oh, we are on a glacier kick. Last week I did Duncan's story.

[Cassie]

Glacier crevasses are part of our vocabulary now.

[Danielle]

Yeah. I need a shirt. It says, ask me about crevasses.

[Cassie]

Yeah. New merch idea. I kind of like it.

[Danielle]

Ask me about. Yeah. Ask me about my curvace. No, that sounds.

[Cassie]

Or maybe I mean, ask me about my crevasse.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

Please don't.

[Danielle]

I'm sorry. I'm like, I don't know what's happening to me. I'm so giggly right now.

[Cassie]

Great.

[Danielle]

I don't even think we need a pallet cleanser because we've been yapping.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

All right, well, thanks, everyone, for joining. Hope you enjoyed learning about sticking. And we'd love to hear about knowing comments and stuff like that. Like, you're an adventure dog buddy that you don't think is a daft noodle or whatever that you understand is brave and sweet and lovely and has feelings.

[Cassie]

Yeah. Tell us about your dogs.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

Or cats. Adventure. Cats are welcome to adventure.

[Danielle]

Animals of any kind is cool.

[Cassie]

Yeah, for sure. Because they all have feelings and we don't need a crevasse survival to know that.

[Danielle]

Yeah. And I won't hear any arguments against it of our stance.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Well, on that note, so you have your homework. Yeah. Tell us about. Tell us about your adventure animals and tell everyone you know that Cassie wants to be on is a cake and get that going. That would be great. And we'll see you next week.

[Cassie]

In the meantime, enjoy the view, but watch your back. Bye, guys.

[Danielle]

Bye.

[Cassie]

Thanks for joining us for another episode. We hope you learned something new and have another location to put on your list. If you want more MPAD content, make sure to follow along with our adventures on all socials at National Park After Dark.

[Danielle]

For more stories just like this one, with the added bonus of exclusive content, you can join us on Patreon or Apple Subscriptions. If you purchase prefer to watch our episodes, head over to our YouTube channel and if you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe on your favorite listening platform.