#136 ADHD at Work: Your Rights, Reasonable Adjustments & When to Tell Your Boss with Jaime Rose-Peacock

Summary

Podcast Summary: Navigating Adult ADHD

Episode #136: ADHD at Work – Your Rights, Reasonable Adjustments & When to Tell Your Boss

Host: Xena Jones
Guest: Jaime Rose-Peacock (Employment Law Specialist, HR Consultant, Licensed Workplace Investigator)
Date: October 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the unique challenges and rights of people with ADHD in the workplace. Host Xena Jones and guest Jaime Rose-Peacock, who brings both lived experience and professional expertise in employment law and HR, discuss everything from reasonable accommodations and navigating disclosures to burnout and legal protections. The conversation is practical, empathetic, and packed with actionable advice for employees and employers alike.

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Guest Introduction: Jaime Rose-Peacock’s Story

[04:57–11:12]

• Jaime introduces herself: owner of two businesses, Marbles People and Culture Hub (HR solutions for small-medium businesses) and Jamie Rose Employment Law Specialist (representing individuals). She also serves on the Employment Law Institute of New Zealand and A Change For Better.
• Shares her late ADHD diagnosis at 44, which provided powerful personal insights and shaped her approach to her work.
• Her experience with ADHD includes sleep problems, job-hopping, absenteeism, and burnout linked to her undiagnosed condition.
• Emphasizes that ADHD was never about lacking passion for work, but rather struggling with systems built for neurotypical people.
• Quote:
  “When I got this diagnosis at 44, it was just so validating. It made sense of all the world for me.” – Jaime [10:00]

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Key Challenges for ADHDers at Work

[12:00–24:41]

• Invisible Struggles: Many mask and overwork, leading to hidden challenges. ADHD is often misunderstood or missed in workplace settings.
• Focus and Procrastination: Difficulty knowing where to start or how to break tasks into manageable steps.
• Burnout from Masking and Overcompensating: Cyclical burnout is common due to consistent overwork to meet expectations.
• Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria (RSD): Intensified anxiety around criticism, performance reviews, and feedback leads to emotional responses and sleepless nights.
• Workplace Structure: Both too much and too little structure create difficulties—clarity of deadlines, expectations, and job descriptions help.
• Performance Reviews: Often deficit-focused and anxiety-inducing; regular 1:1s are much more supportive.
• Forgetting Achievements: ADHDers tend to erase past wins and focus on failures.
• Quote:
  “Burnout is massive...what was diagnosed as depression and anxiety was actually just me having six monthly cyclic burnouts because my body just couldn't sustain it.” – Jaime [14:11]
  “Employers should see accommodations as unlocking productivity, not lowering standards.” – Jaime [33:58]

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Reasonable Accommodations & Requesting Adjustments

[25:36–36:44]

What Are Reasonable Accommodations?

• Definition: Modifications or adjustments that help employees with disabilities (including ADHD) work on equal terms with others, as required by law (UN Convention and NZ Employment Relations Act).
• Jaime offers a shoe analogy:
  “Everybody needs shoes, but not everybody needs the same shoe size.” [27:06]

Practical Examples:

• Flexible start times or staggered schedules (especially valuable for chronic sleep issues)
• Written over verbal instructions or using tech for easier information recall (e.g., note-taking AI in meetings)
• Noise-cancelling headphones or quiet workspaces (even if it means challenging outdated workplace policies)
• Music, project management tools, or body doubling
• Regular 1:1 check-ins
• Standing desks or other ergonomic interventions

Tips for Making Requests:

• Be proactive: Identify where you’re struggling and suggest solutions.
• Frame as a productivity unlock, not special treatment.
• Employers must consider accommodation requests in “good faith” under the law, but accommodations must also be reasonable for the business.
• Use AI tools (e.g., ChatGPT) to help draft business proposals or communication with managers, but always personalize and check its accuracy.
• Quote:
  “Don’t be a victim with this. Be proactive in your own solution.” – Jaime [33:43]

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Legal Protections, Rights, and Disclosure

[36:44–43:00; 46:41–55:47; 62:35–71:55]

Flexible Working (NZ Law)

• Under Part 6AA of the Employment Relations Act, any employee may request flexible working arrangements (changes to hours, days, work location).
• You do not have to disclose your ADHD or any diagnosis to make a flexible working request—your reason remains private.
  “You don’t need to tell your boss I’m applying for it because I’ve got ADHD.” – Jaime [37:05]
• Employers must respond in good faith within 20 working days and can only refuse for valid business reasons.

Should You Tell Your Boss?

• Not required unless your ADHD affects job performance or safety or you are legally required on an application (e.g., certain safety-sensitive roles).
• Assess your relationship with your boss and the workplace culture. If disclosure feels unsafe or could be weaponized, consider seeking legal advice first.
• If asking for accommodations and you’re comfortable, sharing some information can open doors to support, but it's not mandatory.
• If your medication will show up on a drug test, disclosure may be necessary.
• Employers may only collect health information relevant to job requirements, and you (or your doctor) can judge whether disclosure is necessary.

When Facing Performance Action or Absenteeism

• Employers must account for medical factors (like ADHD) if raised, pause any punitive action, and consider reasonable accommodations and alternative measures first (supported by NZ case law: e.g., FGH v RST).
• If you need time off due to burnout or health issues and have medical certification, employers cannot simply decline this; they must attempt accommodations where reasonable.
• If the workload or expectations are unreasonable or non-equitable, this is a legitimate matter to raise.
• Quote:
  “Mental health should always come before improvement plans.” – [63:05]

Representation: Who Can Help?

• Employees facing workplace problems can bring a representative (not necessarily a lawyer) to meetings or disciplinary processes.
• Advocates can be more accessible and are trained to support employees through employment law processes.
• It’s important to find an ethical advocate—look for membership in professional organizations like the Employment Law Institute of New Zealand.
• Quote:
  “When people come to me, many of my clients ... haven’t been heard. They just feel quite broken. And I go, ‘Oh, I get it.’ Sometimes that validation ... just being understood ... can help exponentially.” – Jaime [62:23]

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Burnout and Taking Time Off

[55:47–61:51]

• Burnout is common in ADHD and may be caused by a combination of personal challenges and workplace demands.
• Employers must consider if their structures or workloads are contributing to burnout and take reasonable steps before considering dismissal.
• There is no fixed law on how long a role must be held open for someone on leave for health reasons—fairness and “reasonable effort” are the guideposts.
• External support (advocate, lawyer, Citizens Advice) can provide guidance for employees in complex or hostile situations.

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Actionable Steps for Employees

[40:00–44:54]

• Come prepared: Know what outcome you want and support your request with concrete suggestions.
• Frame issues and solutions in writing if verbal conversations are challenging.
• Follow up if you don’t receive timely responses.
• Remember: Even without a diagnosis, you can ask for support or adjustments if you are struggling.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Proactive Advocacy:
  “Go in and focus on solutions. Look, this is a situation, this is what I’m struggling with. This is how it’s impacting me. Here’s what helps me do my best work.” – Jaime [40:24]
• On Validation:
  “Being understood, you know, and heard… sometimes people just being validated… can help exponentially.” – Jaime [62:29]
• On Mental Health:
  “How can you do your job when you’re not mentally well enough to actually do your job?” – Jaime [63:16]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:57] Jaime’s professional background
• [07:33] Jaime’s personal ADHD diagnosis story
• [12:00] Common workplace challenges for ADHD
• [25:56] What are reasonable accommodations?
• [36:13] All about flexible working under NZ law
• [39:36] How to request accommodations from your employer
• [46:41] Legal obligations for bosses; accommodation refusals
• [55:47] Burnout, medical leave, and employee rights
• [62:12] Value of choosing a representative with lived ADHD experience
• [63:05] “Mental health should always come before improvement plans.”
• [67:14] Disclosure: When (and if) to tell your employer about ADHD

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Where To Find Jaime Rose-Peacock

• For Employers: www.marbles.org.nz
• For Individuals: www.jamierose.co.nz (Jamie is J-A-I-M-E)
• Also on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn; WhatsApp: [phone]

Jaime offers brief, obligation-free consultations and support via text or messenger as well.

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Final Thoughts

This episode gives employees concrete knowledge and empowered steps to advocate for themselves with ADHD at work—whether they choose to disclose, how to request accommodations, and what legal rights and processes protect them. It’s also a must-listen for employers seeking to create inclusive, productive, and legally compliant workplaces. The conversation’s warmth, humor, and authenticity shine throughout, making complex topics accessible and actionable.

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Transcript

[A]

You are listening to the Navigating Adult ADHD podcast with your ADHD coach and expert, Xena. Hello my friend. I am so happy that you chose to push play on this episode because I guarantee you are going to to want to take some notes. This episode is so, so full of practical steps and advice and things that you can do when it comes to navigating your ADHD in a workplace. Okay. We have Jamie Rose Peacock, who is an employment law specialist, an HR consultant and a licensed workplace investigator. She's actually based here in New Zealand. She's up in Auckland now. She comes on the podcast and her and I talked for ages. We're sharing the whole thing with you. We talk about the accommodations that you can ask for in a workplace, what is it that you can reasonably ask for when it comes to your ADHD and things that you might be struggling with in in the workplace setting. And we talk about practical steps that you can take and how to navigate those conversations with your employer. We also answer the question of when to tell your employer about your ADHD diagnosis. You will learn what your legal rights are and what are those of your employer as well. And you'll also hear why mental health should always come first in the workplace. Jamie Rose has got this beautiful energy. You're going to see it and hear it and feel it when you listen to this episode. And I could have talked to her all day. She was so generous with her time and all of the incredible things that she shared. And you can tell that she's so passionate and has such a wealth of expertise when it comes to, you know, navigating your own ADHD in the workplace setting. So she is the founder of two small businesses where she actually supports both small to medium sized businesses. And she also works with individuals in helping them to navigate the workplace matters. And you'll feel that she, she really has a focus on integrity and empathy. So she was diagnosed with ADHD later in life, like so many of us, and brings a wealth of lived experience to her professional practice and her advocacy. So, as you will hear in this episode, gaining insight into her own neurodivergence has been hugely transformative for her. It's allowed her to navigate life, career, leadership and well being with this greater sense of awareness and intention. Now, Jamie and I talked about how she's actually recently completed her Master of Arts in psychology. I found that fascinating because she had a thesis that she did which explored the organizational factors that influence imposter phenomenon among high achieving professional women. Now, typically in the past we would have referred to that as imposter syndrome. So her and I, of course, are going to have to have another conversation in the near future about imposter syndrome. Syndrome. All right. Her academic work really does reflect her deep commitment to understanding the psychological and structural dynamics that shape people's experiences at work. Now, in addition to all of the incredible things she's already doing out in the world, Jamie contributes to governance through her roles on several boards, including the Employment Law Institute of New Zealand, and also A Change for better. So, my friend, I have created a one page PDF recap of all of the key points and the things that you're probably gonna wish that you were noting down as you go throughout this episode. You can get that for free by visiting navigating adultadhd.com cheat sheet. All right. It is your cheat sheet for this episode. I'll also link to that in the show notes. And in the show notes I'm also gonna pop the bio, all of the information about Jamie, who she is, her background and where you can connect with her, especially if you would like her to advocate for you in a workplace setting or support you in some way. All right, I'll link up all of that view in the show notes, my friend. And don't forget, forget for grab. That's a good new word. Look at that. Don't forget to grab that cheat sheet. All right, Enjoy, my friend. I'm so glad you are here. Okay, welcome back to Navigating Adult adhd. Hello, my friends. Today we have got a very special guest. We are joined by Jamie Rose Peacock. And first of all, welcome to the podcast. Jamie, I'm so happy you're here.

[B]

Morena. Morena, I am happy to be here as well. Thank you for having me. Yay.

[A]

So we're just going to dive straight in and I would love for you to start by telling us a little bit about who you are, what it is that you do.

[B]

Sure. So I own and operate two businesses. I own Marbles People and Culture Hub, and also Jamie Rose, Employment law specialist. Marbles is very much focused on providing hr, er, solutions to small to medium businesses, providing them with external HR help, HR help that they may not have internally because they're either too small, they just don't have the need for it. So things that I'm often engaged for is to support with medical incapacity processes, performance improvement plans, disciplinaries, recruitment. So I go from the nice fluffy end of HR with recruitment all the way to the pointy end of hr, often helping with grievances. And disputes. And then. Jamie Rose Employment Law Specialist I provide support and advice to individuals so if they're going through a challenging situation with their workplace where they might be. Have been called in for a disciplinary or they might be attending a performance improvement plan or they just have an issue that they don't know how to broach or they need to raise a grievance, I support individuals with that sort of thing and I keep the businesses very separate because they are two very different business models. You know, HRE for businesses and representation for individuals. They're very separate. But I also like operating the two of them because it keeps me objective and in the middle and I'm able to see both sides when I'm traversing a problem or helping the two parties to come together to resolve a dispute. And I love being that middle ground. I like to be objective. I'm also a licensed workplace investigator. It sounds very Magnum PI type call. It's not, it's not. I, I do have my little badge with my photo, but it just means that I'm legally, legally entitled and licensed to undertake workplace investigations in New Zealand. And I'm also on several boards as well. I'm on the Employment Law Institute of New Zealand, where we're promoting ethical advocacy in the employment law space because you don't need to be licensed to be an advocate or representative in New Zealand. And also the ACFB Trust, which we're providing accessibility to mental health and neurodivergent assessment. So, yeah, so that's me in a nutshell. I think that's covered everything.

[A]

We're going to go really deep, don't you worry. I'd also love to hear a little bit about your own ADHD story, your diagnosis journey, that sort of thing.

[B]

Yeah, I think quite simply I thought I was broken in many aspects throughout my life. You know, I never felt like I quite fit in in the world. And I actually started looking into ADHD when I, my daughter was about seven and I was looking at her going, she adhd. You know, there's some things going on here very much, you know, bit of a justice warrior and a little bit of rejection sensitivity and I'm like, what's going on here? But also a brain full of butterflies at the time as well. You said with that much love, because I adore her. But I was looking into, I was going, hey, this is, this is actually quite familiar. And so I, I looked into it and I got diagnosis at 44 and it was categorical. Yep, you're inattentive and hyperactive. But my hyperactivity is internal, it's in my brain. But had suffered my whole life with quite crippling rejection sensitivity as well. But also the thing that I didn't know that was highly correlated to ADHD was chronic sleep problems. And that has been my thing my whole life. I have had chronic sleep, chronic sleep problems, either really like huge insomnia or just not being able to sustain my sleep, massive anxiety. And throughout my life I've had depression and anxiety as well. And so when I got this diagnosis at 44, it was just so validating. It made sense of all the world for me. But I think that the one thing that I have struggled with consistent consistently in my life is work. And what I mean, not doing the work because when I'm working, when I'm at work, when I've got a job, I'm dynamic, I'm there, I'm doing it, I'm, you know, I'm a machine. I love work. And it's not that I didn't want to work, it's just I had trouble either sustaining work. Especially in my 20s. I job hopped a lot. I'm not just talking, you know, simple job hop from one admin role to another. I'm talking. I went from being a nanny to a, to a car saleswoman to deciding I was going to join the Air Force, which I did, but then I got glandular fever and then I decided that, you know, I was going to get into travel. So like, you know, major job hopping, but also looking back as well, just yeah, staying in those jobs. But also, you know, I had this aha moment recently where I was like, I was always getting in trouble from, for being away from my desk and talking to people. Well, you know, that's because I couldn't just sit at my desk. We know that now. But at the time it was like, sit at your desk and stay there. Why are you constantly walking around talking to people?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For me though, with work, absenteeism was a major, major issue and that was linked because I often got sick. Yeah, I now know that was linked to my sleep. I could, my sleep was a major factor in all my work issues. So like I said, it wasn't work itself, it was being able to get to work because either I either had such bad night's sleep, I became sick or I was just unsafe to drive. And at times my husband was like, you're not safe to drive to work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So for me, sustaining work was a real challenge. And it was because of those ADHD related health Problems. Yeah.

[A]

And it makes so much sense when you look back now. Right, and realize, well, totally undiagnosed, untreated adhd.

[B]

Okay, totally. You know, knowing myself now, there are things I would have done differently and asked for accommodations, which we'll talk about later, but you know, it's the re. I'm, I'm self employed now and I'm thriving. I've been self employed for 10 years. I would never go back. I'm my own boss. I don't have to be accountable to anybody. But also my employers don't have to have my issues become their own. I can, I can self manage myself now if I've had a bad night's sleep, I can be unmotivated or a little bit foggy in my own time, not in my employer's time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, that was my diagnosis story. Really, really validating. And since that diagnosis, I know myself, I'm a lot kinder to myself. I know what I need for myself as well. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think it can be so life changing getting that diagnosis. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

I think the key for me as well is that ADHD wasn't that I didn't want to do the work because like I said, I love work, I love the work that I've done. But it was that the systems and structures created barriers for me to work efficiently and effectively once again. That's not the employer's fault, you know, and if I'd known it, it would have been a different story. But the systems and structures in the, and the neurotypical world didn't work for my brain 100%.

[A]

Yeah. So what, Speaking of that, I mean, what are some of the common challenges that you see for ADHD is at work?

[B]

I think with the fact that ADHD and neurodivergence is often invisible and we just, you know, we often mask and overwork just to pass, just to get through life. So often it's very hard to actually see what people are being challenged with. But you know, when I look at this topic as well, I think this topic can actually be applied to anybody with any health or disability challenge. It's not even just ADHD or neurodivergence. We can apply it to anything, I think, without understanding. Yeah, sorry, I lost my train of thought. Like we love that.

[A]

Hang on, what was the question again?

[B]

Where was I down? A really important topic then. Astrophysics.

[A]

Let's talk about that.

[B]

Yeah. Common challenges that adhd. ADHD is both face at work. Focus, regulation, not just distraction, but like you're given A chunk of work. Right. Dina, I want you to write this three hour policy. You know, I need you to write this policy. I need it done in three hours.

[A]

Oh my God, send help.

[B]

This is a part of you. This might be a part of your job. You might be, you know, might be an HR manager or you might be a practice manager, or you might be an operations manager. So it's an integral part of your job. But when you're presented with writer, you know, writing something in depth, that focus, regulation or irregulation is massive. Right. So that's a common challenge is getting this large piece of work and just going, how the hell do I start? Where do I start? So instead of actually starting out, you go, oh, I just go make that coffee or talk to Bob down the hallway. Before you know it, you haven't started and then you procrastinate and then it's become even bigger, you know, so that's.

[A]

Just to highlight there. There's like the focus, the procrastination, the not knowing where to start, not knowing how to break it down or knowing.

[B]

How to break it down. Yeah, not knowing how to break down. I think another common challenge, burnout from masking and overcompensating 100%. And we've talked about this at our ADHD Auckland conference, we're going to talk about it at the Christchurch program. You know, burnout is massive. And when I look back in my life, what was diagnosed as depression and anxiety was actually just me having six monthly cyclic burnouts because my body just couldn't sustain it.

[A]

And I think to speak to that, one of the things that you just touched on briefly before is how we often, like we're masking, but we overwork.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's like we're working twice as hard as everyone else to get the same results, the same outcome. Like, you know, there's just totally so much of that happening. So the burnout, yeah, of course, you.

[B]

Know, it's like, oh, I'll just stay late to get this done because I don't want them to think I'm, you know, not working. Or I'll stay up till midnight smashing out this piece of work and then not sleeping properly. And then, okay, I'll get up at 4am and to get this done before, you know, and then once again not sleeping properly. So all these things end up correlating to burnout. And I don't know about you with your burnout, but like I said, mine is. Mine has often been cyclic. I don't get it. As Much now that I know myself, I can feel, feel when I'm starting to become unwell. But also my lack of sleep that I told you about. So the overwork and then lack of sleep that would result in me having massive burnout which then resulted in absenteeism. You see the cycle. Um, and you know, for me in many of my jobs because I, I was dynamic. I loved working. I would often work 72 to 80 hour weeks when I was there, but then I'd end up crashing and burning and needing a whole week off.

[A]

I can so relate to that too. I remember going into work when I wasn't having to work just because I wanted to be there. Like I've had jobs and like offering to work six day weeks because I loved it so much. Like thinking back now, I'm like, no wonder I got so burned out or like left, you know, under this cloud. Like.

[B]

Yeah. But then do you think maybe there was some dopamine seeking in that behavior? Dopamine seeking validation because you felt wanted and needed and like I felt productive.

[A]

I felt good. I felt, yeah. Like I was, I was so stimulated in that environment. I loved it, I enjoyed it. Like I was learning new things, all of this. So I wanted to be there. Yeah. And then I sat the life out of it almost.

[B]

Yeah. And then you end up burning out. Then you're no good to anybody. You know, hey, poor employer is going, well, where's Xena? Where's Jamie? Where, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we're going, oh, you know, work, you know, works made me sick. So that, that's one thing. So another common challenge, absenteeism, like I said, often health related. Nothing. Another massive one for me. Xena, I don't know about you. Rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria. It was a really common challenge for me and many adhders. I would have heightened anxiety about criticism. If a boss came to me and was like, can we have a chat? I'd be like, oh my God, I'm gonna get fired. Like what's happening? Or if I got a text going, can you come and see me tomorrow on our performance improvement plan. Sometimes it was just like, hey, you're doing a great job. Just wanted to let you know. Well, could you actually just put that in a text message?

[A]

Right, right. Actually, so that I can not have a sleepless night or you know, thinking about all the jobs I need to apply for and updating my CV because.

[B]

Absolutely. But also I was a crier. I've always been a crier, which I now know is related highly Correlated to my rsd, I actually find crying quite, quite cathartic. And actually it actually helps regulate, you know, it actually does. I actually can't remember, yeah, the last time I've actually cried because I know myself well now, but, you know, over my working history, I'd cry if I got feedback. And I remember this one workmate that I had and in London, she was like. And this was before woman even knew that ADHD was a thing for them. We're talking 15 years ago now. God, Jamie's such a crybaby, you know. Yeah. You know, such a crybaby. That's just the way that I, you know.

[A]

Yeah. And now that you know that, it's so often that comes back to that, you know, that those feelings of being rejected or criticized or having failed in some way, that RSD element, like it, oh, it makes so much sense. But again, like, even thinking back through my past work history, I think of so many times where that showed up. I remember working in the travel industry and I was running a team of agents and we're booking, you know, trips for people and you're having to provide quotes and so on. And I was just scared sometimes to give people the price and have them say, that's too much, like it was a personal attack, you know, or, you know, no, we're not going to go ahead with that holiday. And so, so much of the job now I can understand, felt like I was failing or being criticized or rejected in some way. You know, so many elements of it constantly on edge. And now that makes a lot of sense in my brain.

[B]

And I was also a corporate. I was a corporate travel consultant. And, you know, if, if somebody even slightly said, well, you've, you've done this wrong, I just like hyper fixate on this one mistake and it would actually send me into sleeplessness. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, my goodness. And, and I'm still very much like that to a degree, you know, interpreting emails and, and often I will sometimes. I just actually now know that I'm, I'm feeling RSD and I have to just ground myself and walk away from it and actually just go for a walk or something, you know, so that, that's a massive one. I think one. Some of the other common challenges as well, structure, it can be too rigid, too suffocating. You know, it's like if you've got too many KPIs, you've got a manager that's just like, you know, I hate using the word micromanager because it. But if you've Got a micromanager that can, that can then you know, make you feel suffocated but also that RSD then comes into play and then you know, then you hit the, the burnout and the focus dysregulation and it's just like this, it's just this noble effect.

[A]

And when you say structure it's so interesting because in my brain I'm like, yes, too much structure. But also if there's not enough.

[B]

Yeah, oh yeah, totally.

[A]

It, it can have that same sort of aimlessly floating around a lot of procrastination kind of a, you know, like I don't know what I'm meant to be doing or you know, like some people with, you know, not having deadlines. Oh no, just give it to us when you're done. Like that kind of a thing. Not enough structure.

[B]

I do not like that. And even, you know, you ask my clients and I'm militant listening to my clients. Right. When do you want this disciplinary letter back? Well, no, that would be urgent. But let's, let's. When do you need this policy back? Yeah. Oh, we never. No, please tell me, you know, when do you want it back? Otherwise you will just get it back whenever. So which could be next year? It could be next year and if they don't give me a timeline, it will be next year because I'll just look at it. We were talking before about submissions for things. I'll be like, whereas, you know, my key clients now know they go just by the 10th of October please. Jamie would be great. And I go cool. So you know, I've got that in my head. So I think too much structure is not a good thing. But then we also thrive on some structure. But I think the structure for a good, a good structure for an ADHD or is just having a clear job description. Yes. Metrics if they're needed. Don't just make make up metrics and KPIs for, for, for the sake of it, you know, and then also giving them deadlines, clear deadlines. But then just leave them to it, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And have check ins. But once we'll come back, we'll come back to that later. Don't want to digress too much. Yeah. I think another common challenge is that with performance reviews can often send ADHD is into a spiral as well, you know. Oh God. Performance reviews coming up. And I'm not a fan of performance reviews for performance reviews sake. I'm actually more of a fan of regular one to one check ins. Performance reviews I think are often done Poorly and too late. And you shouldn't be having a performance review and bringing up issues a year later if you've not told them. Hey Zanny, you know, nine months ago you, you did well. Why didn't you tell me this nine months ago? I also don't think performance reviews focus on things like creativity or crisis problem solving or innovation. They're quite a negative deficit. Yeah. Structure.

[A]

I feel like they're often my partner's actually just gone through this at his work. Like they've had their annual performance reviews that they go through and it's very much like a tick boxy type of thing. And, and it's, you know, it's so different because I was in a company where I had to sit down every month with each of my team members and have a one to one. And that's when you know so many things got brought up. Any challenges that they were going through or anything personal that might have impacted their, you know, like so much of that true conversation would happen in that.

[B]

And you get to safer environment. You know, even if they're not a big fan of you or a big, you a big fan of them which you will get when you, when you're in that relationship. You still get to know about them, you know, if their husband's having surgery or you know, the cat's sick. You know, God forbid our cats get sick because we love our cats. I know it's gonna hijack about that, you know. Or if you know their daughters want a competition and you get to know them at a bit of a deeper level. And so when issues do come up or if they want to raise something with you or you want to raise something with them, it's not so scary when you have that regular one to one you can go, yeah. You know, I could say hey Xena, I noticed a couple weeks ago, you know, you just, you just seeming out of sorts. What's, what's going on? Yeah, well, my cat's sick. You know, it's really playing on my mind.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Or look, you know, I'm just really struggling. You know, if you're employer knows I'm struggling with my ADHD at the moment and this is what I'm experiencing. So I think those one to ones create that, that level of trust and respect that you need in the employment relationship. I get really frustrated when I hear from performance reviews are done yearly and that issues aren't brought up regularly. All good things are brought up really well done. On what you did recently. That's amazing. You know yeah.

[A]

And I think that's so important for ADHDers to hear as well is, you know, if we're not hearing the good things like our brains, forget them. Out of sight, out of mind. We often focus on what we're not doing, what we should be doing, all of that. But if you have those regular one to ones, you know, you are hearing, hey, well done on this. Like, you know, you did really great last month. Well done, you know, what have you. Like, it just helps to.

[B]

Yeah. You know, we forget about our wins. Right? About our wins. And you know, I look back on my year and go, I didn't really do much this year. And my husband's like, what the hell are you talking about? You, you passed your masters. Yeah. Got invited to a conference to speak. Got invited to another conference to speak. You're on a podcast. Yeah. You know, you've been nominated for awards. And I go, oh, that's been quite a big year.

[A]

That's right. I make myself at the end of the year sit down and look back on my camera roll because I take shitloads of photos and screenshots, right. And I go back through each month and have a look, what were some of the highlights? You know, like, oh, that's right. We went on this trip. Oh, that's right. I won this award. Oh, that's right. I spoke on there, on that panel at that conference. Whatever. Like, because your brain forgets, right? It's like, oh, there have been lots of achievements, lots of positive things this year. So I find the camera roll helps with that because otherwise my brain's like, oh, this, we didn't achieve anything this year. So hang on a minute, brain.

[B]

The new thing I've started doing the last couple of years, at the end of the year, I actually do a reel of like an Instagram. Instagram reel of the year. You're a little video with music. And I just sit there. And that in itself is, oh, sentimental but little dopamine fix. And oh, it has been an amazing year because I think our brains can be quite wired to be quite deficit and negative in its thinking. We actively have to push back on that. And that's because we've had a hard life where many of the aspects of our life have been negative and deficit. So it's not that we need constantly.

[A]

Pointed out to us, constantly pointing out.

[B]

You'Re not good enough, you're too much. Yeah, okay, well, what am I? Am I this? Am I that? You know, you've done this wrong, you've made that mistake okay. But actually, you know, what about all these amazing things that we.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We're doing?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, that's. That's a big thing for me is actually focusing on the. On the positives, but not to be toxically positive either, which just annoys me. But that could be another podcast.

[A]

I know, right? I've got some ideas in my brain already, but one of the questions that I'm often asked, and I would love for us to talk about this, is what are some of the accommodations that somebody can ask for in a workplace? Or some of the practical steps that they can take when they know that they've got adhd?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What. What can they do at work? What can they ask for? Let's talk about that.

[B]

Look, I think accommodations, accommodations could be anything for anyone. I looked up the definition this morning for accommodations. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities defines reasonable accommodation as the necessary and appropriate modification and adjustments, not imposing a disproportionate burden where needed in a particular case to ensure persons with disabilities the enjoyment or exercise of, on an equal basis with others, of all human rights and fundamental freedoms. It's a mouthful, isn't it?

[A]

Isn't it just. I was like, how can we condense that down? It's basically helping them almost get a level playing field to the other employers, sorry, the other employees that they are working with. Right. If I think about, like a start line at a race. Right. Like if you're running a race and if we are penalized and have to start 50 meters behind everybody else, it's basically helping us to get up to the same start line. So we're all at that same place.

[B]

They use the word equal, but I'm still a fan of equity, and what you're talking about is equity, and I'm a big fan of equity. And the analogy I often talk about, everybody needs shoes, but not everybody needs the same shoe size. You know, you might put on my size 9 heel and you go, well, this is just awful. And I, you know, I don't know what shoe size. Let's say you're.

[A]

I'm a 10. I'm a 10, so you're squishing me.

[B]

I'm gonna put on your team size 10 hen running shoe and I'm gonna trip over myself. Right? So everybody needs shoes, but not everybody needs shoes the same size. I really, really like that analogy. And so in terms of the workplace and life in general, the accommodations that we. That we need are not going to be the same for everybody. Now, for Me, if I look back on the fact that with my major sleep issues, the fact that I wanted to work, but that I struggled to get to work, a reasonable accommodation for me would have been to ask for staggered start times or just flexi. Time. Hey, when I get to work, you know, I work well. I know I need to work my eight hours, but can you let me just slide my eight hours as and when needed? Now, in the role that I was doing at the time, that would have actually been entirely able to be accommodated.

[A]

I didn't.

[B]

You don't know what you don't know. Right.

[A]

And other.

[B]

Other workplaces that's not going to be able to.

[A]

Yeah, I was going to say, like when we talk, for example.

[B]

Yeah. When you're a teacher, for example.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So when we talk about reasonable accommodations, I also think as an. As an employee, we also need to be aware that our employer doesn't need to jump for us. They've still got a business to run. And if it's not reasonable for them, in order to be able to execute their business plans, their strategic plans, they don't have to accommodate it. But pursuant to section 4 of the Employment Relations act, employers and employees have to work in good faith with each other. Now, good faith broadly means to work responsive. Responsively, constructively, productively. Okay, so I may come to you, you may be my boss. I go, zena, look, I'm really having trouble with my start times. Is this something that you could reasonably accommodate? Now, in good faith, you would need to go away and consider it, and you may come back and go, look, Jamie, that's absolutely fine, but I might just suggest that we make these tweaks. Or you might come back and you might go, no, we just can't. I'll come back to that later. Of. Of sort of what an employee has to do and. And doesn't have to do. But in terms of looking at accommodation. So it. It's different for everybody. It doesn't need to be dramatic. You know, it can be small. It could be saying to your boss, look, I really struggle. Struggle with sort of verbal instructions. Could you put this into a Russian instruction? Or could you give it to me verbally and then put it in an email? Okay, yeah, that's an accommodation. Now, you may not. You might just think it's. That's common sense, but you know something.

[A]

Or could we. Could we. I'm just thinking on the back of that, could we add an AI agent to our zoom meeting? That transcribes it or takes the key points so that I then have something to refer back to. I've got some notes right, like that. That's not even. The employer probably doesn't even have to pay for that. It's not going to take any time. It's just something that will help me.

[B]

Yeah, it's a reasonable accommodation.

[A]

Yeah, Y.

[B]

You know, things like regular chickens. We talked about noise cancelling headphones. Now some employers may have a policy of not having headphones, but you know why. So maybe. There you go. You go, look, I know we've got a policy. This is actually an issue for me. I'm really struggling, struggling with the noise around me and it's compromising my ability to work. Well, could I have noise cancelling headphones or could I have discreet little loop?

[A]

Yeah, tiny little.

[B]

And they may actually go, look, I didn't even. I don't even know why that policy is in place. It's seems a bit sort of, you know, old school. So that could be, you know, an accommodation for me. I need music when I'm working. Like, I need music. I have Spotify playing 12 hours a day from the time I walk in my office to the time I leave. And I need that. You know, my husband, that would drive him dulu. But for me, that's. That's what I need. My Spotify playlist does not know what to make sense of me in terms of my music taste.

[A]

Mine's the same. It's terrible when it tries to, like, create those like. Like it tries to do a Spotify dj and I'm like, what the hell are you playing that for? Like, I'm not in the mood for that.

[B]

So you listen to it, Xena. Or, you know, an accommodation might be just a particular project management tool, something like. Or like Trello. Could we put all this on a Trello board? Body doubling, you know, it wasn't until I found out about my ADHD diagnosis that I learned about body doubling. And there were particular days in my masters. I was really struggling to get my masters done. I said to hubby, hey, I've learned about body doubling. Could you just come and sit in the corner of my office with your book? I don't want you to talk. Just come and sit. Just be there and be there. It's quite cool. So I've got a lovely comfy armchair. So he came and sat down. Twenty minutes later, I was in flow and I looked over him. I'm like, oh, you can go now. So, like, just little things like that. And I don't know what it was but it said kind of accountability of somebody being there. I know I've got to start typing.

[A]

I get that in a cafe. I go to a cafe and I feel like everyone's watching me. They're not. Nobody gives a shit. I'm doing. But I'm like, oh, my God. So I got to be so productive. Can't be on Facebook.

[B]

Right, Right. So it's those little things. There's also body doubling apps now as well. But yeah, you know, for somebody, that works better with somebody. But if you're like me, sometimes I work better with somebody. But I actually don't want anybody in my room. So I'm a little bit of a paradigm.

[A]

But I don't want them to talk. But I don't want them to talk.

[B]

Right, yeah. So it could be like, right, okay. With this project, Xena, can you sit with Jamie? But she's going to put her noise canceling headphones on whilst you sit with her. Yeah, but you're body doubling and you've got the silence.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or putting music on in my headphones.

[A]

You know, one of the things that we talked about earlier when we talked about recording this is asking that question of, what do you think you need?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And I loved that you said that. Because I think it's not necessarily expecting the going to the employer and saying, I need accommodations for my adhd. It's, well, where am I struggling? What do I think could help? And maybe they do have a policy like the headphone policy where they say no headphones in the office. But can we have a conversation about that and then maybe a different idea will come from that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't think any should. Anybody should presume they know what an employee needs. Like you say, actually, what do you need? But also conversely, an employee going to the. To the manager with solutions and going, this is what I think I need. Can we. And not making it your employer's problem. Yes.

[A]

Thinking about it for yourself about that. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like, don't be a victim with this. Be proactive in your own solution.

[A]

100%.

[B]

I also think employers should see accommodations as unlocking product productivity, not lowering standards. Yes. Oh, I want.

[A]

Hang on, we gotta say that again. Say it again.

[B]

Employers should see accommodations as unlocking productivity, not lowering standards. Yes.

[A]

I feel like you just. Mic drop there. I love that you said that. Because it is helping your employee. It is helping us to be more productive, to get our work done, to enjoy our work environment more.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To have more balance. All of the things like this is Such a win win thing.

[B]

Totally. And you know, people go, if you, if you don't love your job, why are you there? You know, work is inherent, but it's not as, it's not as simple as that. XENA WORKERS and it's not just about your paycheck, it is largely about your paycheck. We don't live on oxygen, but work is so inherently tied to one's identity, one's self esteem, one social environment. How many work families have you had where you go, love going to work because your mates are there, you got your work best. You know, it's your work environment, it's your identity, it's your, it's your place where you can thrive. So it's not, don't, it's not just as easy. Well, if you don't like your job, why are you there? Well, no, I actually have the potential to like my job, but there's things that I'm struggling with at the moment, so I'm going to repeat it. Employers should see accommodations is unlocking productivity, not lowering standards. You know, and I think helping with accommodations also, you know, it reduces the cognitive load of people constantly having to think about what they can do to make themselves better in the workplace. You know, it's freeing their mind up of that cognitive load so that they can just go in and do their job efficiently and effectively. For me, I know, I now know that self employment is the best option for me. Like I said, I can be my own boss. I'm struggling after a night of sleep. It's in my own time, not my boss's. But I also like it. I've got music playing. I've also got a box of fidget toys on my desk.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

My cats come in. I get my little oxy. Yep. Yeah. Get my little oxytocin fixes throughout the day. They've got their cat beds.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, but you know, these things. And so those things, I guess are my accommodations that I've made for me.

[A]

Yeah, I'm a standing desk as well. It's another one that I invested in last year that has been game changing. Yep, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

And like we talked about AI, things like that, that's an accommodation for me as well. We can talk a little bit more about AI. I think an important thing to talk about as well is that under New Zealand law, so Part 6 AA of the Employment Relations Act 2000 is about flexible working. So if you are somebody that needs flexible working, this is something that you could apply to your employer for you Write a letter and say, pursuant to Part 6, AA Flexible Working, I am applying for the right to request flexible working arrangements.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

Yep. So that could be you requesting a change to your hours, to your days, to your location, to your pattern.

[A]

So it goes like, I work from home one day a week or, you know, start late a couple of days a week or what have you. Just based on whatever your needs are, et cetera, to best support you. Yeah. Okay.

[B]

You don't need to disclose why you're applying for it. You don't need to tell your boss I'm applying for it because I've got ADHD or because of my adhd.

[A]

That's good to know.

[B]

Yep. Yep. So you have a right to privacy. We can actually talk about when to tell your employee and when not to, if you want to come to that.

[A]

And I actually do, because that's one of the questions I get asked so often is when, when do you. Yeah, when do you tell them about your adhd? When do you not?

[B]

And it is a balance, you know, but for flexible working, you don't need to give them a reason because you have a right to your own, to protect your own privacy under the Privacy Act. 2000 2020. Sorry, that was the old one. 2020. All the lawyers will be going. But you have a right to, to protect your privacy. And you only have to disclose it under certain grounds or when there is a fair reason for your employer to know. Now if your employer doesn't need to know that you've got adhd, you don't need to disclose it. So under this Flexible Working act, you have the right to request flexible working. You don't need to tell them why you might choose to. If you've got a good relationship and your boss already knows, requests must be in writing and considered in good faith by your employer. So we talked before about that good faith. They've got to give you a decision within a month. So 20 working days. Employers can only refuse on specific business grounds. So they may refuse because it's going to cost them more. It may impact their quality. They may have an inability to reorganize work. But if they don't have specific business grounds, they can't just say, I don't feel like giving it to you or I don't trust.

[A]

That doesn't suit us or whatever.

[B]

It doesn't suit us.

[A]

They need to have a valid business related reason.

[B]

I think Covid has taught us that actually the majority of people can work pretty efficiently, you know, either from home or Flexi time as well. But like I said, once again, it comes back if it doesn't suit the business model. A teacher can't just request flexi hours. They need to, of course.

[A]

Like they need to be in school teaching their class between certain hours. Yeah.

[B]

And so for them to say, well, I want flexible working and be like, well, that's not going to work. But you know, it may be. It may. Like you were talking about travel consultants before, it may be that they could even do staggered ship. You know, somebody might start the day or you might finish.

[A]

Yeah. And somebody else finishes it. Yep, totally. How do you.

[B]

So, yeah, it could mean later start remote work, different work patterns, small changes that make a big difference.

[A]

Yeah. Like you say. Yes, small changes can make a big difference to us. Yeah. How do you approach that conversation with your employer? Like if you're wanting to request accommodations, etc, how would you recommend approaching that? Because I know a lot of people struggle with just that. I don't know what to say.

[B]

I've actually got a subheading how to approach the conversation with an employer.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Look at us. I think framing it around that good faith. We talked before about that section for openness and constructive problem solving. So don't just go to them and go, I've got a problem and I need you to fix it or expect them to do something about it. Go in and focus on solutions. Look, this is a situation, this is what I'm struggling with. This is how it's impacting me. Here's what helps me do my best work. Right.

[A]

And I think that's doing your homework ahead of time.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like I always say to people, make notes and ask yourself, what's the outcome you want here? Right. And what's going to help us to get to that outcome? Well, you know, if we were to do these three things that would really help me to be more productive, to, you know, enjoy my work more, what have you.

[B]

And it's a win win. It's going to reduce their time and stress. You know, there's nothing more stressful than an employer having to deal with a management issue or a medical incapacity issue with their staff members. So if you go to them with, here's what helps me do my best work and emphasize that it's a reasonable accommodation, not just special treatment. Now this is where AI, the beauty of AI comes into play. I've often talked to people and said, okay, so you're telling me you're actually giving me a really good business proposal here. So if I Was your employer. What you're telling me is really smart. Go and put it into a business proposal. Tell me what you need, why you need it, what the impact of not having it is and what benefit it's going to have. Don't put that into AI. Put your key points into AI and go write me. Can you please write me a letter or, you know, a business proposal to my manager with these key points, points to emphasize the benefit of, to them and to me.

[A]

Go to Chat GPT. It's free.

[B]

Now, obviously, AI comes with its, its challenges and you. And it needs to be used ethically. I always say you need to make sure it's coming. These are your words, that it's not. The AI is not making it up for you. It needs to be done ethically. You know, the amount of documents and emails I get through. Dear, Dear sir, it is with great delight that I have a huge enthusiasm for this. No, right. It needs to be in your own.

[A]

You need to still personalize it. You know, it'll give you a rough draft or like a template to work from, but make it you.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Go through and take out the EM dashes. It's really telling when you see EM dashes, it's like, oh, AI's written that if anybody doesn't know what an EM dash is, it's the larger dash.

[A]

It's like a little dash. I love the little dash, but it's like twice as long. It's like this giant dash. It's like.

[B]

So apparently I got explained to it it's a width of an. Of an M. So that's what, that's.

[A]

Why it's called the M dash. Yeah, it is.

[B]

And the other one is an EM dash. So the little one is little. Yeah, we go. We digress. They're not quite astrophysics, but I'm happy to know this. So go through it, you know, and make it. Personalize this leisure to make it sound like you. AI does hallucinate as well. So I don't know if you know about hallucination, but it makes things up. Yeah, 100 likes to. Please it does.

[A]

The episode that will come out before us is on using Chat GPT and AI. And one of the things I say to be mindful of is fact check it because all it wants to do is please you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So if you're using Chat GPT you want and you need some factual informational research, you need it to back that up because it will tell you that you are an all black in New Zealand and you've never played for the All Blacks. Literally, this happened to my friend.

[B]

So it is an absolute second. It is a sycophant. It'll take. But then you could actually ask it an opposite question and go and challenge it. And it goes, oh, you're absolutely right, I got that wrong. So I. I've called it out a number of things. Are you lying to me? It's like, I'm sorry. Yes, I'm sorry I was lying to you.

[A]

I was telling you what I thought you wanted to hear.

[B]

God. So, I mean, it's a great tool when used for, I think, to. The key thing is release that cognitive load. You know, you're struggling to get something out. Write me this, give me an idea. It'll create a template and then often from there I find that I will then get into flow and I'll generally change most of it anyway. But it's given me.

[A]

It's helped me start. Right. It's given me like a template and it's helped me start and kind of get the ball rolling. That's. That's how I feel. Yeah. Reduce.

[B]

That's a bit of a body double, isn't it, really?

[A]

Yeah, sometimes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah. And AI is a great way to do it.

[B]

Yeah, totally. So write me a positive, you know, write me a positive letter to my employer. So frame in that good faith, here's what helps me do my best work. This is what would, you know, help me. Even if it's not flexi working, it's just something else, like the headphones and then actually put on there. I would appreciate if you could please review this and get back to me by XYZ date with your thoughts. So then, because whilst it's not a. It's not a legal request, because it's not a flexible working request, it's just an accommodation request, actually giving your employer, you know, a time so that they then also have something to work too, as well. And if you don't hear from them, follow up with them.

[A]

Yeah, follow up. They too may have adhd. May have.

[B]

They may do, you know, they may do, yeah. But I also think as well, writing, look, ideally you'd be able to have that verbal conversation with your boss and go, hey, you know, see, now, this is. This is what I need. This is what helps me do my best work, but especially with adhd, is. I don't know about you, but I often communicate this in writing. You know, I can absolutely slay something in writing, but trying to have a verbal conversation sometimes is quite hard. So, yeah, Getting it out of my head onto paper, sending it over in a really polite way that, you know, it doesn't need to be verbal.

[A]

And for me, it's having notes. Like, I can have the verbal conversation, but I need my little bullet points to refer back to. Like, even when I'm giving, like, a keynote, I still have little bullet points. Because I will forget or I will go off on a tangent. No, no. I'll tell you all about my cats, which is totally not relevant to this conversation at all, but.

[B]

I'd be quite happy to make it relevant. I'm still spiraling from finding out that your cats nearly got taken away from you.

[A]

Oh, my God. I know, right? How dare somebody do that? But if we were to come back to, like. I think we've kind of briefly touched on this and I'm mindful of time, but, like the employee employer. Right. Our boss.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If we're talking about, like, our boss's legal obligations or if you are the boss, what does the law sort of say? Or when can an employer say no to an accommodation? I feel like we've kind of covered that. Is there anything else that you want to add? Like, it. Obviously it needs to be fair and reasonable and not negatively impact the business's ability to achieve its goals and function and run and do what it's there to do.

[B]

I think a good employer would also come back with a compromise. I mean, I. I know that I would have. As a manager, I can't do this for you, but this is what I can do for you. What do you. Yeah. And that's good faith. Right. Right there. It's constructive and it's. Yeah. You're constructing something, so it may not be the. The initial accommodation, but you're still working towards resolution.

[A]

Yeah. Or even, I can't do this for you, but can we have a, you know, get together and have a chat about what else we could do to support you? Even if they don't have, you know, another idea, you know, other ways we could help you with this.

[B]

That's good faith and that will always be looked at. You know, how. How did an employer seek to engage with their employee instead of just denying something? How did they seek to resolve this. This issue in front of them? I think the other thing as well, another really important section of the Employment Relations act of section 103, and it talks about the test of justification. I won't sit and analyse law all day long because that'll put your listeners to sleep, but basically it talks about when an employer is going to take action that may essentially disadvantage an employee or may result in dismissal. There's certain things that they need to do. So they need to allow somebody to get a support, personal representation. They need to seek genuine feedback, genuine.

[A]

Feedback from the employee, from the person before taking.

[B]

I'll give you, I'll give you an example. Yeah, so say you're the employer. You're not. Basically, you're calling me into a disciplinary, disciplinary situation because you think I'm taking too much time off or, or a performance improvement plan because I'm being off too often. So you would need to, basically, and it may, basically, as a result of this meeting, this process, you may be taking action, either a warning or you may be invoking some sort of medical review process or you may be actually proposing to terminate me because, you know, I'm just not fulfilling the requirements of my role. Yeah, this is a very, very in depth situation that I can't give you all, you know, all the possible contextual outcomes. But as a fair and reasonable employer, you have to give me the opportunity to know all the, all the allegations, what the issue is. You need to give me the chance to go out and seek representation, legal advice, representation, and you need to have a meeting with me or a process where you seek full feedback from me about what the situation is. Now, I will come into this meeting. You've given me this opportunity and I, I could go. You know, Zena, you put these allegations to me that I'm off too often. But actually I need to let you know I've been d. Diagnosed with adhd and this is actually a medical issue. This is not a performance issue, it's not a misconduct issue, it's a medical issue. I'm really struggling with my health. I'm struggling with, you know, getting to work on time. I really need help now at that point in time, as a fair and reasonable employer. This is established in case law. Fg. I've forgotten the case. Now, isn't that terrible?

[A]

Don't worry, because as soon as you tell us, we're going to forget it too.

[B]

So it's okay. The relevant case is FGH versus rst. You can look it up. Now. We talked about this in our pre planning session, Zena. The employee had known mental health issues. But I've actually gone back into the, hey, she had ADHD as well. So the, so the employer was treating her behaviors as attitude and insubordination without fully engaging with her medical causes. So she told them, I've got medical issues, I've got adhd, they carried on down a disciplinary pathway. Now, basically, the Employment Court held that the employer failed in the early process. They didn't give full and genuine consideration to the health factors. So when I come to you and I say, I've got adhd, I need help, can you please help me? They should pause the process at that point in time because it's not misconduct, it's not performance, it's medical. And they need to actually give full and genuine, genuine consideration to what they can do as an employer before going down a formal path, like. Yeah, punitive pathway.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. What help do you need, Jamie? Do you need, you know, do we need to make accommodations? Do you need some time off? You know, it doesn't need to be at their cost, but do you need to take some leave without pay to, you know, to get some help?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Only then, when all those things are satisfied, should you be looking at a more punitive process. Because an employer has also a requirement to, in a duty of duty to look after their employees, you know, the health and safety of their employees as well. So the later, when the employer then paused, sought medical input, adjusted the process and then carried on later on at a later date, the Employment Court found that their actions were then reasonable in all the circumstances.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, section 103A is a critical point in time. An employee cannot just come to you and invoke a disciplinary or a medical process or a performance improvement process without hearing your response and giving genuine, full and genuine consideration to your responses as well.

[A]

And when you are looking for a representative for that. So if you want to seek out some sort of legal help and somebody to help you through that process, one of the things I remember you saying to me is that doesn't have to be a lawyer. Can you elaborate on that?

[B]

Absolutely. So under section 236 of the Employment Relations Act. I love my Employment Relations act, you are entitled to have a support personnel representative, present representative in any of your employment dealings. It does not need to be a lawyer. So for myself, I am trained extensively within the space of employment law. I can act in many ways in the same capacity as a lawyer, but I've gone through a different pathway of learning employment law to lawyers. Now, I don't want to get. Don't want to get lawyers backs up, because I have a huge, great respect for my lawyer colleagues out there and they do a phenomenal job and there's a time and place for lawyers as well. But in something like this, where you're needing somebody to act for you to have a voice for you to come in and represent you in a disciplinary meeting. It doesn't need to be a lawyer. It could be your friend, it could be Marg down the road, it could be you. What I would say though is that you need to find somebody that does understand the process, does understand an employment law, does understand the principles of good faith, but it does not need to be a lawyer. So there are many, many ethical advocates and employment law representatives out there who are not lawyers, but have trained extensively within the field and operate within the mediation space, operate within Employment Relations Authority, but they're not lawyers. So you could go out and find an advocate. What I do say is that when you are seeking somebody that you do find an ethical advocate. Now, this is my, this is not a plug for, for the organization that I work with, eland, but Employment Law Institute of New Zealand. They provide membership for advocates who are basically screened for the professional skill competency. They align themselves to the Eland's code of conduct. They continue with professional development throughout their career as well. So don't just go out and get Marg down the road, but you also don't need to get a lawyer. You can get an advocate and sometimes lawyers, you know, lawyers with their, with their hourly fees, it just creates, I can imagine, help.

[A]

You know, it would make it unrealistic for many people. Yeah.

[B]

So an employment law advocate or representative can make access to justice more affordable. You can find people that work on a contingent basis. So that is often called a no win, no fee. That does have its benefits, but you also need to be careful for what you're signing on for. Or it may be that an advocate or representative has much lower hourly rates than a lawyer does as well. So, yeah, you don't, you don't need to be represented by a lawyer. Conversely, as well, you don't need an advocate just to step in when things go bad. You know, you could come to the likes of somebody like myself and go, jamie, look, I've been diagnosed with adhd. I want to talk to my employer about it. I don't know what I need to do. And I could step in and act as your voice and just basically reach out to your employer and go, hey, I'm Jamie Rose. I'm Jamie Rose Peacock. I'm speaking on behalf of Xena. She's got some concerns that she wants to raise with you. She doesn't feel comfortable doing that herself and she's asked that I represent her on these matters. So it doesn't even need to be at the, the pointy end of H, you know, pointy. It can be just when they're needing help at that initial stage as well. Yeah.

[A]

Wow. One last thing and let me know, do you have time? Because I'm mindful. Absolutely true time.

[B]

I could talk for another hour.

[A]

We've gone over what we did say we were going to do. One thing I would love to talk about is burnout because I have seen so many people who have come to me for coaching or just had conversations with people in our community who have experienced ADHD burnout and had to take time off work as a result. And one instance recently, this person, their employer then contacted them and said, look, we can actually let you go. We can't just leave your parents position open like this. And this person had a medical certificate and it was very messy. So I'm really curious, like when somebody does experience burnout and they are going to need more time off work and potentially they do have a medical kind of sign off, what have you. What rights do the employees have here?

[B]

Yeah, this is.

[A]

Seems like a real gray area to me.

[B]

Anyway, so comes back to that section 103A of a few and reasonable employer making sure that they've considered everything fully and fairly. One of my fundamental questions to that would be is it their ADHD or is it their work causing the burnout? And because there could be an interplay here. So.

[A]

And what if it's both?

[B]

So an employee's got an obligation to actually fully look into that and go, is there an issue within the workplace that's actually compounding this employee's ADHD and leading them to burnout? So look, an employer doesn't have to hold a job open, you know, for months and months and months, but what they do need to be able to demonstrate is that they've been fair and reasonable and looking at all factors before making the decision to terminate. Now there's no, also no case law around how long or how little a job has to be held open. But again, it's what's fear and reasonable. So, so the employer should be having meetings and actually saying to this person, look, this is an issue. And they're saying, well, you know, I've got adhd, I'm suffering, burnout work is making me sick. And then the employer actually going through a process of considering all accommodations that could be made or what, you know, all risk mitigation. What could we be doing to make work easier for you? And until they've actually been able to demonstrate that they've been fair and Reasonable and done all that they could reasonably do. It's only at that point that they can justify termination. But if you're just coming to me preliminarily with what you've told me, I would be saying I don't think they've done everything that they could fairly and reasonably do. So I would be having extensive engagement with that employee to go like, what can we look at to be able to be fixing things to help make work better for you? Once again, it's pie in the sky as to what they could do, but it's going to be individual. So Zena, what do you need now? You could be going, look, you know, I just, I'm really struggling with, you know, old mate sitting next to me talking really loudly. That's actually cool. Okay, so can we move that person? You know, or, or the workload, right.

[A]

Like so often say that the, we're rewarded with doing well by giving, being given more work. So the workload may have been manageable initially, but it has initially, it's gradually crept up and up and up and up. And now it's like the workload, I can't keep up. So I'm working, you know, nights and weekends and staying all these things. So that comes down to the people.

[B]

Pleasing and that work we talked about as well. So I would be saying as well, come back to that equity discussion with the shoes. Are they giving that much work to other people in the same role? So as an employee, maybe not. So then, okay, so are you actually treating this employee fairly and reasonably or is your management and your expectation, expectations actually impacting the employee to the point that their ADHD is getting worse and they're burning out as a result of your work. So things an employee could be doing a time in motion study looking at the work that they've got. Is this actually, is this fair and reasonable to consider this able to be done within the 40 hour week or 30 hour week? Are there, you know, a review of the job description? Is there anything that's fundamentally changed on here that is no longer fit for purpose? You know, is there work that they're doing that could actually be given to an administrator or a manager, you know, that other. Are the hours sustainable? Are we expecting this of other people? Is this equitable?

[A]

Are we expecting this of other people?

[B]

Like, are we expecting this of other people? And so now they can't just basically, you know, if the person's got a medical certificate and, and they struggling to come to work and they need time off, that can't just be declined. Now, the employee shouldn't expect that they're going to be paid for if they've run out of sick leave. However, if they've got a medical certificate saying that they're not well and they can't attend work, the employer can't just decline it. And they do actually need to look into why this is occurring.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's really contextual. And I think this is where the beauty of getting external help from the likes of an advocate or representative or lawyer, you know, or Citizens Advice Bureau or, you know, there's. There's great sites to look up, but sometimes just actually picking up the phone to somebody like myself and going, hey, Jamie, this is the situation. Yeah, Now. And, you know, lawyers and legal representatives will always have a question put to them. And the answer is, it depends because it is so contextual. But something like what you've talked about, I would be breaking it down. Okay, so what's the employer done? How have you approached this? Has your role changed? When did you notice you started getting sick? Have you raised it with your employees, with your employer as well? Too many times I see people come out of their jobs and they want to take grievances. It's like, well, did you actually raise it with your employer beforehand? No.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you didn't give them the opportunity to make it right.

[A]

Yeah. One of the reasons why I would encourage people to come to you is you have the ADHD lived experience. Like, you understand the struggles that we can experience. You know, the rsd, the, you know, the challenges with sleep and. And focus and productivity and procrastination and all of these things. And I think that, yeah, your ability to, like, your knowledge is wild to me, and your ability to, like, quite all of these numbers and, you know, these sections of law, like, amazing. But you get it. Like, what I love is that you. You get what it is like for us. So I. True.

[B]

I truly do. Yeah. And that's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, when. When I found out about this, I was like, oh, this makes sense. But then when people come to me, you know, many of my clients come to me and they haven't been heard.

[A]

They.

[B]

They just feel quite broken. And I go, oh, I get it. I get it. And it's just sometimes that validation, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I can't always make it completely right for them, but sometimes people just being validated and knowing.

[A]

Being understood. Yeah.

[B]

Being understood, you know, and heard and. And these things, the things that we're experiencing, they're a lifetime issue. They're not just going to go away. We need to actively work at them. But, yeah, I do understand those things. Yeah, I love what I do.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's evident too. But before we. We tell everybody where they can come and find you, I would love. One of the things that really stood out from our earlier conversation was when you said to me, mental health should always come before improvement plans.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would just love for you just to talk a little bit on that because that was just such a, like a big thing for me, just hearing that, like, mental health should always come before.

[B]

The amount of people that I've seen have been called into PIP meetings, you know, performance improvement plans, you know, you're not doing your job. How can you do your job when you're not mentally well enough to actually do your job? And once again, I don't want to make it an employer's problem problem, but an employer at that point should actually go like, stop, all right, what do we need to do to actually help your mental health to get you back to a point of feeling well in order to do your job? Because if we can actually treat or actually support some of the mental health challenges that will often bring performance. Right. And I'm sure you've probably been through this in your time where you've had a bout of depression or anxiety or burnout, you can't work properly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Conversely, it doesn't mean that you can't do your job well. You know, you're bloody good at doing your job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what's a PIP actually going to do to help that? Pip's not going to help it. It's going to spiral you into a world.

[A]

It's going to be terrible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's going to be worse. But if you offer me support.

[B]

And so what would that look like? You might go, you know, you might go, look, I think I need just a week of later starts or I need leave. Although leave in itself doesn't fix everything because sometimes people think leave is a bit of a fix all. No, sometimes it just puts plaster of a bit on it, but your job's still there waiting to come back to. Or do you need longer lunch breaks? Or do you just need to work in a quieter office this week? Or do you need to. Do you need time off to see a counselor? Do you want to access our EAP program? We've got our EAP program program. Not everybody wants to talk, but. No. So all these things. So what do we need to do? What would help you at this point in time with making you feel mentally Better, you know, so for me, often feeling mentally better, I need a couple of days of just having a little bit more time to get up in the morning without throwing me into meetings first, you know, straight away. Or it might be having several days without meetings, you know, have given me a week at my desk without meetings.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, a PIP is only going to exacerbate issues. It's not going to make mental health actually pause. What can we do? And if you as an employer don't know what to do, go out and get your own HR help or your own, you know, Advice. Yeah, advice, you know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And that's one of the things I really love about the work that you do, is you do both sides, right. The small to medium businesses, but you also work with the individuals. Right. The employees. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So you see, and it keeps me grounded and it keeps me objective. You know, I'm sure there have been many times I go, oh, why is this employee bloody doing this? You know, but then I go, I can stop and think. Okay. And I said to the, I say to my employer, clients, could it be possible that, you know, they'll come to me, oh, Cena's off again for the fifth time this, you know, this month. And, you know, she just, she seems away with the fairies. And I go, okay, is it possible that there's something going on, like potentially ADHD or, you know, depression?

[A]

Ah.

[B]

She has talked before about she has had mental health issues, has mentioned that. Okay, okay, so let's stop this potential PIP that you're wanting to talk about and let's focus on this. Let's actually let her know what the meeting's about. Don't just send her a text, tell her not to worry, but that you just, you know, you're concerned about her, that you want to talk to her, you've noticed this and you want to actually talk to her about it and see what's going on. If you do it in that non punitive way where it doesn't feel like a disciplinary or a pip, just like this is what I'm observing, this is what I'm really concerned about. I want to know how I can support you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, yeah. And then all along it was potentially about your ADHD and your mental health if it wasn't a performance issue. And sometimes just knowing that you're able to be heard and seen can help exponentially.

[A]

Yeah, 100%.

[B]

We're talking about when to tell your employer, when not to, because we did touch on that, on that before. You don't have to tell your employer that you've got ADHD or autism or anything else, so long as it doesn't impact your ability to do your job or impact the safety of your job. Now if you're adhd, if you're applying for a job as a machinist, you have adhd, diagnosed ADHD and that, you know, potentially it could be a risk. That is a situation I would be.

[A]

Disclosing if it could be a risk.

[B]

Also, if it is legally asked on an application form, do you have any form of diagnosed neurodivergence? You actually have to legally tell if you were legally asked.

[A]

I believe like for the police force, at least here in New Zealand, you have to disclose that, things like that.

[B]

Yeah, same with, same same with all the military. So you do have to disclose it. But you know, if you suspect that you've got ADHD but it's not diagnosed, you don't have to disclose it.

[A]

It's not.

[B]

But you can also still ask for accommodations even if it's not diagnosed. I suspect I have adhd. I'd like to ask for some accommodations.

[A]

If, if you think your ADHD is negatively impacting your ability to get your work done, is that a situation where you would recommend doing that?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But I always do say as well, look at how vulnerable you are. Do you have a good, trustful, respectful relationship with your boss? I absolutely would. But if it, if you feel like it could be weaponized or it's going to be, is you're too vulnerable and it's going to make it worse for you, I would be seeking advice on that as to whether you think you should legally disclose it. However, like I said, when it does come down to health and safety, I absolutely say you need to tell, you need to tell people if you're working in safety and sensitive role or it's going to impact your job to do the impact your ability to do your job well. You know, don't apply for jobs where you think your ADHD is going to be exacerbated. Be realistic, don't apply for a job you don't think you're going to do well at. You're only setting yourself up for failure.

[A]

Also one thing where it could need to be disclosed is if you're having to do drug tests and you are somebody who's medicated with an, you know, methylphenidate amphetamine, like a stimulant based medication, no doubt that's going to show up in a drug screening. So that may Be a situation where you would need to disclose. Yeah.

[B]

And that comes down to that safety aspect. And the majority of roles in that sort of situation will have application forms where it does ask it's sort of question. And you do need you. If you legally ask, you need to legally tell. Because if it's later found out that you've not disclosed it and it was a question that was legally asked, it could actually result in a, in a disciplinary or process or a withdrawal of the job offer.

[A]

What if you did not know you had ADHD when you were employed? You've later found out, but it was a question on your application. Right. And you probably can't remember that, to be fair, but you've later found out. You know, you've worked at the company 10 years, you found out two years ago you got ADHD. Do you need to disclose then? Only if it's.

[B]

Only if it's relevant to your role. And that's where I would be seeking advice. And it's so contextual, you know, like your job, you know, and you've just. You found out in the last two years. Do you need to tell your employer? Is it impacting the safety of you or your colleagues or the public? Probably not. Is it impacting your ability to do your job? Probably not. If it was though, I would be going, telling them. And this is where it also comes back to good faith for the employee. Section 4. You remember what I told you?

[A]

And if you have a good relationship, you know that, that, that's probably going to be a conversation you may want to have. But if you don't, like you said, or if you feel vulnerable or like it could be weaponized. Yeah, it's good to know that you can, you don't need to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To do that.

[B]

And, and likewise when an employer is seeking. So if they went down a medical incapacity process for you and they were wanting medical information from your, from your medical provider, they can only seek information that is relevant to the job. They can't seek all your personal health information. They can only seek health information relevant to the job. So it may be that your doctor even says, I don't think that your ADHD is relevant to your job, therefore I don't think that you need to tell them or they may go, no, it's absolutely relevant. It is so contextual. And look, I'm sure there'll be other employment law practitioners sitting here listening to this going, why didn't you tell Xena this, that or the other? We could. Like I said, it's so contextual.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's going to depend so much on.

[A]

The job, the role, the company, all. Yeah, all different things. Yeah.

[B]

And so many ways to skin a catch.

[A]

I hate saying I can see you shivered visibly. I was like, we need to swap it out for possum. Okay.

[B]

I like possums.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Yeah. So I, I think we've covered off a lot of what we're going to.

[A]

Talk about and I were already like, we've already talked about having another episode because there are so many things that we want to talk about. But Jamie, I know that our listeners are going to be so grateful for this episode and everything that you have shared because this is a question I am repeatedly asked. I see it come up in so many communities all of the time. You know, what are, what are our rights? What are the accommodations? You know, what can we do? What do we need to disclose all of these things. And so this again has been incredible and your passion and enthusiasm and your knowledge just really does shine through. So tell our listeners where they can connect with you if they're wanting to. You know, whether that be. Follow you on social media or, or you know, your websites for, for reaching out to get advice. How can they, how can they find you?

[B]

So if you're an employer wanting help, you can get me through www.marbles.org nz I've got a contact page on there. I'm also on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Jamie Rose, employment law specialist, also on all those platforms and I'm on www.jamirose.co.nz. jamie is J A I M E because everybody always gets it wrong. And my phone number is 0800-100-347. And you can also get me on WhatsApp as well.

[A]

And I'm across all of that.

[B]

Yeah, you can find me anywhere. Yeah, me, anywhere.

[A]

I'll link it all in the show notes too, just to make it super easy for people because we, we forget pretty quick pause to write it down. So I'll just link it all up in the show notes for everyone.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And, and just look, I always tell people whether employer or employee reach out to me, a five minute chat is far easier than making a massive mistake as an employer or employee, you know, because it goes both ways. A five minute chat can, can make all the difference. And if you're not a talker, you know, because I'm, I'm not always, I'm not a phone talker. Some people are text.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, like messenger, just flick me a text message. I'm really happy to chat through that as well across all forums.

[A]

Yeah, thank you so much, Jamie. And yeah, I look forward to having you back again soon.

[B]

Thank you for having me. It's been so exciting. I was really nervous, but I like to be here for another hour.

[A]

I know, right? Hey friend, if you want some more help navigating and thriving with ADHD and some help applying everything that you're learning here on the podcast, then head over to our website site, navigating adultadhd.com.