#139 Making It Safe to Be Different: Harnessing ADHD at Work with Callum McKirdy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Navigating Adult ADHD #139 — “Making It Safe to Be Different: Harnessing ADHD at Work with Callum McKirdy”

Main Theme:
This dynamic episode dives into how ADHDers can leverage their unique strengths, especially in the workplace, and how organizations, leaders, and colleagues can create safer, more effective spaces for neurodiversity. Host Xena Jones and guest Callum McKirdy, a speaker, author, and coach specializing in workplace dynamics, explore authenticity, playfulness, and the power of embracing difference both professionally and personally.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet Callum: Embracing the Playful, ADHD-Positive Approach

• Introduction & Connection:

  • Xena describes her instant connection with Callum (“When you meet somebody… and you just hit it off, especially when it’s a fellow ADHDer…” [00:03]).
  • Callum’s background: ADHD-positive, dyslexic, speaker, author, and facilitator focused on workplace dynamics ([00:54]).

• Defining “ADHD Positive”:

  • Callum reclaims ADHD as a positive label, challenging perceptions that emphasize deficit and disorder ([35:38], [37:16]).
  • “The benefits of having my ADHD brain far outweigh the negatives.” – Callum [37:16]

2. The Challenge—and Freedom—of Being Different

• Fitting In vs. Authenticity:

  • Callum shares his late-in-life ADHD diagnosis at 44 and his struggle between wanting to both stand out and blend in ([08:04]).
  • “All my life, all I wanted to do was just to fit in, just to not get noticed. But always the struggle of going, why aren’t I getting noticed?” – Callum [08:04]

• Curiosity as Core to ADHD:

  • Both discuss how ADHDers are naturally curious—not just about the world but about themselves ([09:41]).
  • “I always thought that was me going, ‘I don't know who I am.’ But actually what that is, is me being 100% me because I'm just eternally curious.” – Callum [09:41]

3. ADHD Traits & Superpowers: Noticing, Innovating, and Energy

• Dyslexia and ADHD Together:

  • Callum recounts experiences of not being recognized as dyslexic in school, and moments of feeling “different”—a motif that continues into his adult working life ([10:52]-[16:11]).

• Inattention as Superpower:

  • “My inattentiveness… is just huge and it’s frustrating, but I know that’s one of my superpowers because I can notice how people show up and people’s energy.” – Callum [16:11]

• Calling Out Difference Responsibly:

  • Rather than “calling out” (in a negative sense), Callum addresses what he notices in others as a way to build connection and facilitate understanding ([17:39], [18:08]).

4. Practical Examples of Embracing Difference

• Tiny Pools Analogy:

  • Xena gives the example of a business specializing in tiny pools as a metaphor for having a unique point of difference ([05:51]).
  • Instead of appealing to everyone, focus on what makes you unique—this applies to both individuals and businesses ([06:31]).

• Absurdity Sells:

  • Memorable and quirky features, like robots in hotels or beer in showers, make businesses stand out ([27:12]-[29:02]).

5. Creating Safety & Authenticity at Work

• Making It Safe to Be Different:

  • Callum emphasizes the need for workplaces to move beyond “one size fits most” and to make it culturally normal to be different ([22:43], [43:15]).
  • Safety comes from curiosity, open discussion, and noticing without judgment ([34:25]-[34:51]).

• Examples: Curiosity Conversations

  • “If you’re the employee and your team leader is curious… let’s have a conversation.” – Xena [34:25]

• Routine, Playfulness, and Productivity:

  • Both discuss the tension between routine (which can anchor ADHDers) and the need for flexibility and fun. Playfulness isn’t just permitted—it’s often the key to engagement and innovation ([51:28]-[55:39]).
  • “If we can mix fun and work… then you’re far more productive. You’re engaged, satisfied, and happy.” – Callum [52:27]

• Fun Analogies (Laundry, Dishwashers):

  • Team-building using everyday differences, like how people hang up washing or stack the dishwasher, can foster appreciation for individual preferences and open safe discussions about difference ([44:53]-[48:26]).

6. The Flexibility and Value of ADHD

• Medication: Fitting In vs. Creativity:

  • Callum and Xena discuss ADHD medication’s role in “fitting in” to neurotypical work structures, but also note it can reduce creativity for some ([40:09]).
  • “I’m very choosy on it because it does dumb down my creativity. My kids notice that.” – Callum [41:04]

• Reframing Professionalism:

  • Callum and Xena critique traditional notions of “professionalism,” advocating for playful, personalized definitions that allow difference and authenticity ([53:15]).

7. Authenticity & Relationships

• Radically Authentic Workplaces:
  • Authenticity isn’t about being friends with everyone; it’s about feeling safe to show up as yourself. That requires self-safety and a supportive environment ([58:52], [63:35]).
  • “Authenticity requires two things: self safety… and the safety of our environment.” – Xena [63:35]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Authenticity and Fitting in:

  • “I've always wanted to just fit in… but I wanted to stand out for the things that were me… I never quite understood what was me.” – Callum [08:04]

• On ADHD Superpowers:

  • “I don't believe ADHD is a superpower but I do believe it affords us some quite extraordinary skills and abilities…” – Callum [16:11]

• On the Unique Contribution of Difference:

  • “Where difference lies lies the ability to make a difference.” – Callum [22:43]

• On Workplace Culture:

  • “Harnessing ADHD is cultural... It’s about having a better relationship [at work] where both are curious.” – Callum [31:15]

• On Playfulness at Work:

  • “We can't be playful, we can't have fun at work because it's seen as being unproductive. And yet… the times that I had fun unlocked amazing productivity.” – Callum [52:27]

• On Professionalism:

  • “I think professionalism and being adult is often an excuse in itself… The word… is a barrier to having fun in the workplace and embracing that.” – Xena [53:15]

• On Masking and Authenticity:

  • “I've struggled a lot with that personally, but I've also not struggled to be authentic because I think it's easier to be myself than it is to hide and mask.” – Callum [59:03]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic | Speaker | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------|----------|-------------| | Instant connection & ADHD community | Xena | 00:03 | | Callum’s background and “ADHD positive” | Xena | 00:54; 35:38| | Fitting in vs. standing out | Callum | 08:04 | | ADHD = Eternal curiosity | Callum | 09:41 | | Dyslexia, ADHD, and school experiences | Callum | 10:52-16:11 | | “Tiny Pools” and niche strengths | Xena | 05:51-07:10 | | The bell curve & value on the edges | Callum | 22:43-25:07 | | Absurdity sells (innovation & quirkiness) | Xena | 27:12-29:02 | | Safety to be different at work | Callum | 34:25-37:16 | | Medication and creativity | Callum | 40:09-42:18 | | Fun analogies: laundry + dishwasher | Both | 44:53-48:07 | | Playfulness & redefining professionalism | Both | 51:15-55:39 | | Authenticity, masking & workplace culture | Both | 58:51-63:35 |

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Final Thoughts

This conversation is a vibrant, candid exploration of living—and thriving—with ADHD, especially in work environments. Xena and Callum model deep acceptance of difference, self-reflection, and playful disruption of norms. The key message: ADHDers (and everyone) flourish when workplaces and relationships make it safe to be different. Curiosity, acceptance, and play are vital tools in building spaces where everyone brings their best.

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Find Callum McKirdy:

• LinkedIn: Callum McKirdy
• Website: callummckirdy.com

Quote to Remember:
“Where difference lies lies the ability to make a difference.” – Callum McKirdy [22:43]

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This summary skips advertisements, intros, outros, and strictly non-content sections, focusing on valuable dialogue and core episode themes.

Transcript

[A]

You are listening to the Navigating Adult ADHD podcast with your ADHD coach and expert, Xena. Hello, my friend. You know when you meet somebody for the first time and you just hit it off, especially when It's a fellow ADHDer, right? Like one of us who just gets it and we skip the small talk, we skip, you know, the weather and all of that sort of shit, and we just dive straight in and you love it. That is my experience of meeting Callum for the very first time. Now, I actually connected with Callum a couple of years back when he did some webinars with ADHD New Zealand. And I watched one of these in preparation to doing my own webinars with them.

[B]

And.

[A]

And I just loved his down to earth style and approach. And he had this like crazy wild backdrop with all of these beautiful lush green plants. And he used a lot of stories to describe things. And I was like, yeah, you're really speaking my language. And so I did my research on him and I connected with him to get him, invite him here onto the podcast and we just hit it off. Or at least I think we did. I think he would agree. So I am so excited to share this conversation with you because it was one of those conversations where we went in so many different directions, talking about so many different ADHD related experiences, especially in the workplace, and so many things that I know you are going to relate to. So, Callum McCurdy, let me tell you a little bit about him. He is a speaker, author, facilitator, and coach. And he specializes in workplace dynamics and behavior. Okay. And he has spent the past 25 years assisting leaders and teams to make the best use of their uniqueness, both individually and collectively. Now he is proudly dyslexic and ADHD positive, and you're gonna learn what ADHD positive means. That's something that we talk about in the episode. And Callum champions organizations to really think differently about different thinking. He challenges leaders and their teams to really harness their their own differences so that they can be better together, whatever that means to them. Okay? So he is just a wealth of experience and knowledge, personally, professionally, and I am so excited to share this incredible conversation that we had. All right, my friend, enjoy. Hello, my sparkly brain friends. Welcome back to Navigating Adult adhd, where today I am so, so excited. I have to say I've been really looking forward to this conversation. Today we are joined by my new friend Callum, and I'm going to do a beautiful intro and tell you all about Callum. You would have already heard that if you've pushed play. But I just want to say thank you, Callum, for coming today and welcome to Navigating Adult adhd.

[B]

Thank you, Kia ora. Thanks for having me. Xena, you just mentioned the word adult and I suddenly thought, I don't feel like much of an adult, so we'll see how this conversation goes.

[A]

I so relate to that. Like, at what stage did we graduate into this adulthood? And sometimes I wonder, can I unsubscribe from that?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, wouldn't it be useful to be able to just go. Yeah, not. Not today. Right. Because we've kind of trained the child out of ourselves as we. I mean, I think as we mature anyway, and get sort of professional, whatever that means. That sort of. I was going to say childish, but it's more childlike playfulness.

[A]

Playful. Yeah.

[B]

Sort of conditioned out of us. And I'd love to go back to that. And I think a lot of people with adhd, so that really resonates. Or you can relate to that. Because it's not because we've been made to feel childish. I think it's more that we actually just love play and curiosity and.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Feel like we're not allowed. We don't have permission to do that as well. Yes.

[A]

I agree. It's like this. This pressure and this kind of. Yeah. You don't have time for that. Yeah. Or that's. Yeah, that's not something you should be doing. But I think it's so useful.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that made me, like, before I was diagnosed, I didn't quite understand why people didn't get my sense of fun in the workplace. Like, I was. I was a bit of a joker. Like, I was never the, you know, the social club person, but I was, like, in. In meetings, like, I always sort of hammed things up a little bit, but tried to just take the. The edge off.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Formalities of things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And a lot of people didn't get that. And I was like, why are you so stiff? Like, why don't you just lighten up? It's just work. And that's what I've always regarded.

[A]

Like, it's just work.

[B]

And as we've talked about before, it's all completely made up.

[A]

Right. Why not have some fun with it? Why not be a little more playful and enjoy it?

[B]

Tinker around the edges and go, actually, how can we do this differently, rather than do this the way everybody does it? Because I think that's an organization's point of difference, is where do we, where can we make the things we do, whether they're a service or a product or whatever we're here for, how do we make that a little bit different while keeping it accessible or perhaps even making it more accessible?

[A]

And that's how you stand out as a company, as a business, when you have a point of difference.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It's so funny. We go for a walk every morning, my partner and I, and we walked past somebody who just bought this, this house out on the beach there. And they've the, the vehicles in the driveway have sign writing there and the sign written, little image shows tiny pools. And I was thinking, you know, so many companies make pools, right? Like they make pools, but their point of difference is tiny pools.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, that's cool. Like you can be very creative with a tiny pool, but that's your point of difference. You don't do big pools. You're not like, you know, giant lap pools. Whatever. You're tiny pools.

[B]

Yeah. Niche into that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, hey, we want a medium sized pool. Yeah. So we don't do that.

[A]

No, we don't do that.

[B]

Okay. And that's good because when you. Because I think as a business as well, and this is what a lot of people sort of ship themselves with is go, how do I. When we get into business, you do work for yourself or whatever you're doing, which a lot of people with ADHD do, is we go, I need to cater to as many people as possible. Now what you probably need to do is niche and strip out the opportunity to cater for everybody and cater for a very small number of people who actually is still probably a large client base because you can't service everybody because you're a one person band. But to do that really, really well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And get known for that, tiny pulls. That's awesome. It's cool, eh?

[A]

I also think that that not only applies to business, but I think of it as like us and our circle of, you know, people, friends, what have you. Like, the more we turn other people off, the more we turn on the people who are for us.

[B]

Like, I'm right way of putting it.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I'm hugely dramatic, I wear bright colors, I'm obsessed with cats. Some people think I'm fucking crazy and I'm like, you're not my people.

[B]

To some people you are. And that's really useful because people get to go, I love crazy or I don't like crazy.

[A]

Yeah. And yeah, I either love that or I don't like, you're for Me or you're not. There's no like in the middle.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's interesting because I've always so. Oh goodness, where do we go with this? So I feel like we should go.

[A]

Back to the beginning, but we can keep going. Right?

[B]

I know.

[A]

Let's start.

[B]

So I'm 49 and I was diagnosed when I was 44. And all my life all I wanted to do was just to fit in, just to not get noticed. But always the struggle of going, why aren't I getting noticed? And it's like it was this weird sort of internal conflict where I was like, I just didn't want to stand out, but I wanted to stand out for the things that were me. But I never quite understood what was me. And of course went 44 years without knowing that I had ADHD. And you know, I've got a couple of other things as well, which I knew earlier, didn't know they were related, but it was just that, that weird last five years of trying to let go of the conditioning and the habits of fitting in. And I catch myself, I was going to say every day, but I probably catch myself every five minutes where I'm doing things that feel a wee bit incongruent with who I now know I am and who I love myself to be, but go, oh, that's actually like their habits from when I was 30 or when I was in my 20s. And I just can't shake those things.

[A]

And I think a lot of that's safety. Like it's kind of instinctive as a built in safety mechanism. Right. But like you say, now that we're aware of it and I'm the same. I'm constantly like, constantly kind of like, oh, hang on a minute. Is that really who I am? Is that what I like? Is that what I want to do? Do I agree with that? You know, and pausing to think, which I think is. Is cool. I think it's cool.

[B]

Fascinating.

[A]

Yeah, fascinating.

[B]

I do that as well. And then I'm. And, and, and I think what you've just helped me clock, Xena, is I always thought that was me going, I don't know who I am. But actually what that is, is me being 100% me because I'm just like eternally curious. And so I'm allowed to ask questions, questions of everything. But also I'm allowed to question myself.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And we've. I still think that we've. Or at least I'll speak for myself. I think I've been conditioned that when I question myself there's doubt there. And that means that being who I am or. Yeah, it's a problem. No, it's not. It's me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is this because. Because the me that I am now is different from the me that I was yesterday slightly. Because yesterday and overnight has changed me a little bit. Yeah, I love that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I get to be a bit fluid with that.

[A]

Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. So you were saying you were diagnosed at 44, you're now 49. I would love to hear a little bit more about, like, the journey that you've been on, what led you to get diagnosed. You also mentioned there are a couple of other flavors potentially of neurodiversity. Tell us all the things.

[B]

Okay. Well, I always knew that from primary school that I was dyslexic and that sort of showed up quite prominently. I also have dyscalculia as well. Like the numbers version of. Right, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Were you diagnosed?

[B]

I wasn't diagnosed for. Not. Not at school. No. That was. That wasn't even known about. But I can remember being. We were. I remember the. I remember the day we were doing long division on the blackboard. Like, this is the 80s and the num. Like, I just switched off when it came to maths because I still don't know my times table. I have ptsd, I reckon, over the stupid game buzz that we used to stand in a circle and have to do multiples of threes or fours or whatever. And I just never got it right. I was always first out, regardless of how far around the circle I was. But I can remember, you know, watching these numbers on these long division equations jumping from equation to equation on the blackboard and thinking, this is cool. Like, maths is cool because the numbers move. And it turned out that's not what math was. But I. So there was there. But also I can remember being. We had moved from. And I tell this, tell the story in some of the conference keynotes I do primary school, we had moved from sort of picture books that have like one or two lines that describe a. Describe sort of a two page spread. The picture, what's going on in the illustration there, moved into journals and they had justified columns. And I can remember saying to my teacher, these books are really cool. The way the column narrows in and I have all this white space on either side of the column. And she was saying, callum, the pages. And actually doing that, or the text isn't doing that. Because what I. And to this day, what I get is I see the. The start and the end. Of each line and a wee bit of stuff in the middle. I have to really concentrate in order for things to stay still.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so she said, well, we'll get your eyes tested and see what's going on there. And so we did. Came back with 2020 vision. I can remember her saying, you've got perfect vision, Callum, so there's nothing we can do. And being that kid that just wanted to fit in, I was like, all right, I'm just going to shut up about this. And so I just. I just kept quiet, tried to cope, but actually switched off and courtesy of, you know, my wonderful ADHD, which again, still took another 30ish years, 35 years to be diagnosed, it meant that I just drifted off and I looked, you know, got distracted by stuff out the window and, you know, the. The level of fluff on the carpet and all sorts of just little things like that. But I also had a classmate who was diagnosed as dyslexic at the same time, he was taken out of class every day to, like, essentially just a cupboard, like the small little office. And he just declined. But he not only declined academically, he declined socially. And I thought, nah, fuck that, I'm not doing that. So I just didn't stick up my hand for anything. And then my brother was a policeman in the uk, decades later, and he had some really stressful cases. He was put off on stress leave. And he saw a counselor and a psychologist, I think, and they both said, hey, we think you've got this thing called sequential dyslexia, which I don't think is even a thing and wasn't. It certainly isn't really talked about here. And I said, mark, what. What are the symptoms of that? And he just rattled off all these things and I said, isn't that everybod? He was like, apparently not. And so that sort of sparked around, sort of 43, 44 sparked my, oh, I might do a wee wee search online and look at these things. Yeah, and sort of led me down a path of getting diagnosed online, which was really. And I don't mean self diagnosed, like I'd done all that, but I talked to a psychiatrist and did it virtually did this virtual assessment. And, yeah, I just felt a bit icky about that because it seemed like it was a fast track to getting some medication. And that's not necessarily what I was looking for. I was looking more for understanding and that seemed too easy and I felt like I was kind of cheating the system because I think, you know, with ADHD is we kind of feel a bit fraudulent sometimes anyway. And so I felt they kind of deepened that and I didn't like that. So I got this more thorough holistic assessment done about three or four months later which of course spent, spent a lot of money on, came back with the same result, recommended the same medication which I went on and. But it gave me this sense of. I've now I now know for certain because two people have told me that I've got. So it's combined type adhd. I'm both hyperactive and inattentive. My hyperactivity more comes out in terms of me needing to use energy and sort of big sustained ways. Like I like going for big long runs in the hills or bike rides or just.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Out doing stuff until I'm a wee bit exhausted. And that kind of helps me process all the problems of the, the world. Yeah. But my inattentiveness or inattention is just, just huge and it, it's frustrating. But also I know that's one of my superpowers because what I can. And I, I don't believe ADHD is a superpower but I do believe it affords us some quite extraordinary skills and abilities and traits etc. And one of mine is noticing how people show up and noticing people's energy. And I don't think that's, I don't, I mean that's not unique to me. I'm not special. I just notice it. And what I do with that and I think this is what a lot of ADHD is do is rather than just sit with an ability to do something, we actually use that. And so when I'm working with people in workshops or speaking at conferences, what I notice, I talk about and I call it out. And for passive aggressive New Zealand we're not used to that. People like identifying behavior at a table in a conference, that sort of thing from the stage. And people are a wee bit, people are scared of that. But I don't do it in a way that's calling people out or bad behavior. I'm just noticing stuff, stuff that I like and that that means that we kind of gravitate to each other as well. And I just love using that, that energy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, but also like I try to be respectful in that because I can very quickly tell when people just need me to leave them alone. So I'm not going to sort of spotlight them as well.

[A]

Could you give an example of that? Like I'm curious how like if you were on stage, for example, like if somebody in the crowd wasn't perhaps responding well or resonating with what you were saying, what might you visually sort of see, pick up on or say?

[B]

So you know how apparently public speaking is like one of. One of people's greatest fears. And like, I was always. I hated that as well, until I got. It was probably 10, 10 years ago, I just had some opportunities to talk in front of people and I thought, I. I'm actually loving this because I realized it's less about the content, the stuff you have to say, and more about the experience. And like, I don't know a lot of stuff. I don't hold facts in my head. I have. I wish I could working memory of, you know, the pot plant behind you sort of thing. And it's. And so all I can do is play with experience and. And how I make people feel and also use how other people make me feel. And so when we're. What a lot of people talk about with public speaking is we might fixate on the person who is playing with their phone or who is looking grumpy. But actually that might just be their listening face. Like they might have resting bitch face. And that could be the way it's me. Yeah, well, that could be the way they listen. And what we do is we interpret that as, I'm not good enough. And I. I refuse to let myself be affected by that on stage. I'm affected by that all throughout the day. But when I get on stage, I don't know, something happens. And it's not a power and control thing because I don't believe there's, like, I've got a microphone, so I'm louder than people, but I don't think that there's any power imbalance there. And what I'll do if I do see people who look bored is I try to engage them or talk into that. And what invariably happens, and it's not about calling people out and saying, hey, you look bored. What's going on? You need to listen more. It's none of that at all. It's just me softly sort of bringing them in. And those people always come up to me afterwards and go. And they always say things like, I was just engrossed in what you're saying. And I find that really fascinating because we interpret someone's way of listening as like, we're looking for the negatives. And I think that's a real ADHD trait as well. Like, we expect people to not be happy with us.

[A]

Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think that comes probably back to the rsd. Like, we're always looking for the, for the reason why. We could be criticized or rejected or where it might be happening.

[B]

An imposter syndrome.

[A]

Yeah. I like if I was to think about that being on stage as a speaker and say you saw somebody scrolling on their phone, the image that I have come to mind is maybe you say if, you know, if you're one of those people who struggles to pay attention and needs to do something to pay attention, don't be afraid to grab out your phone or your Fidget item or whatever it is. If you're scrolling right now, as I'm saying this, and that's your way of paying attention. I see you. That's okay. Is that the kind of thing, because totally. Yeah. I love that because I'm the same. I need to be doing something. The more I'm doing something with my hands especially, the better I am at paying attention to you. If I look at you and stare at you, I'm less likely to absorb.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's happening.

[B]

So I have like a silent drum pad and some drumsticks here. When I coach, I tap those and people don't really know I'm doing, doing it. Often I just say that's what I'm doing. But when I'm tapping or if I'm tapping that stick on my leg, I'm listening a hundred percent. If I'm not doing that, all I'm doing is trying to balance the listening with the urge to move. And so I just allow myself to move. Yes, and. And that's what. Yes, that's what people do. And I can remember getting in trouble. Like.

[A]

Yes, we got in trouble. Sit still. Sit still. Exactly. But pay attention.

[B]

Look at the teacher people, managers calling out, sort of doodling in a notebook in a meeting, saying, you're not listening. It's like, this is how I.

[A]

This is how I listen.

[B]

I just didn't know that's how I listened. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. Yes. So even then I thought I was, you know, doing something wrong, not paying attention, but actually I was. Yeah. I. To switch gears for a minute, I read this beautiful quote on your website. Where difference lies lies the ability to make a difference.

[B]

Yep. That's one of my wee catchphrases. I love that because I think I talk about the. I talk about we live and work at the edges of the bell curve. And most, most workplace processes, in fact most processes in society, they're all tailored or geared towards that sort of big beer belly, the middle of the bell curve, you know, that one size fits. Most approach us adhd is we sort of live and work at the edges of that. That bell curve and that's where the difference is. And I think I totally believe in that. We catchphrase. Where difference lies lies the ability to make a difference. Because when we're trying to be the same, we can only sort of look at a problem the same way as opposed to looking at it a little bit differently or come up with the same. Like we can't get out of that thinking. But if we allow for people who see a problem a little bit differently or, or understand a question a little bit differently and allow people to do that, we. That's where innovation. Yes, that's where innovation lies. Right. Where we question things a little bit differently. And like, there's this. To get fancy. There's this area in like, it's in the. It's in biology called the neurotic. I think it's called the neuritic zone, but it's on the edges of continental shelves, it's on the edges of like, forests where the forest meets the savanna. That's where the greatest biodiversity is on. On those edges, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Before, you know, stuff drops off into sort of the abyss in the sea. But that's where the greatest diversity or biological diversity is. And the same happens or exists in our teams where we get concentrations of difference on the edges of our teams. And what I mean by that is the things that people are hiding and don't necessarily want to show to people, but know that they are of value with them. Now, the thing with couple of things with us, ADHD is we're absolutely rubbish at explaining ourselves or explaining how we drew the links between things. Yeah.

[A]

I feel like our brain goes too quick and it just does or it just gets.

[B]

It sees, just happens. We see patterns. We've never had to explain them to ourselves and so we're not used to.

[A]

Explaining them logically how we got to that conclusion or.

[B]

Yeah, but a lot of credibility professionally lies in your ability to explain how you got somewhere. And that's where I always fell over and we get really frustrated and I'm sure your listeners are going to really resonate with. This is where we have an idea, we couldn't quite explain it, so it didn't get taken up. And then three months later we go, I told you so. And yet we kind of didn't tell them so because we didn't get to do that. And so it's harnessing that difference that's really important for us because I work with a lot of teams where it's useful. A lot. A lot of team building is about where we converge, like, where are our similarities? And that, you know, rubbish concept of recruiting for fit, which I just despise. But there's the convergence. But also, where do we diverge and what. Like, what's that about? And how do we. How do we use that divergence? Because a lot of people in here think that where we don't agree or we see things differently, well, that's automatically going to be. Going to cause conflict, and that's okay. It's how we handle conflict and it's how we allow people to differ, which I think arises the opportunity for us to go, why don't we tweak this a little bit? Like, how about we stick with this base model, but then we do these little bits around the edges that Gavin or Julie suggested, like, what might that look like? And just play with that. Because every innovation hasn't come from a perfectly formed idea. It's come from people looking at an existing idea a little bit differently. And we do that naturally.

[A]

We do that. Yeah.

[B]

So allowing us to do that is super important that.

[A]

This actually reminds me, this conversation reminds me. I'm reading a book at the moment. And one of the things that I loved was when he talked about how absurdity sells. And. And it went on to give these examples of. For example, there was a hotel, I think, in Belgium or somewhere in Europe, and they installed beer. Beer, I don't know, vats or some bloody thing. Something that pumps beer out in the shower. So you take a shower, every single room in this hotel, and you can drink beer in the shower. Okay. And that place books out and has just taken off and. And just skyrocketed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because of this weird point of difference it has. And it reminded me, my partner and I, we went to this hotel in Auckland a while back. They had a robot.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And it delivered shit to your room.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it was a robot. I think it was called Hari. And I was. We went back again and we still talk about it and we tell people to go stay there and. And. And their rooms were pretty basic. We didn't care it had a robot. Right. Yeah, yeah. They also talked about how I think it was Tesla and I didn't know. I don't know a lot about Teslas, but Teslas have all of these random features, like karaoke built in, they've got Easter eggs, where you have to find different things that. Different features that have been hidden in your car. I was like, how fun is that? Right? Like, and it talked about how they didn't like call their models comfort model or anything like that. They had these wild, wacky names. And I was like, that point of difference that, that sort of absurdity does really sell. So I think that ability to think outside the box is just so.

[B]

I think the early crucial Teslas had ludicrous mode. I think it was like.

[A]

Yes, I think that was one of them.

[B]

Yeah, just madness. Like take off all the safety and just go. Yeah, yeah. But I think that's, that, that playfulness is really important and that's, that's really symptomatic of, of us. And I think that, yeah, we bring that. Where difference lies lies the ability to make it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

How do we embrace that difference?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And actually, let's not even talk about the workplace. Like, how do you embrace that in your, your daily life? Like, what do you do, what do you do differently from other people? And what, and, and how do you love that? And I think that's what that self care and self love and, and our well being is about, is, is stopping the. Trying to end the almost endless fight of doing things common, normal, as usual.

[A]

Neurotypically, whatever it is.

[B]

I do some things very weirdly, but man, it suits me.

[A]

Please give us an example.

[B]

Yeah, well, why do I get trapped in routines as well? Like, I help people, the coaching I do helps people to change big habits, but I'm rubbish at changing my own habits. And yet my day is anchored to a whole bunch of habits that set up my day. Like, I have to go through my shower process the same way. I have to make my breakfast the same way every morning. And it's not super, sort of, it's not regimented, but it's. There's a flow to it. And if that flow gets disrupted, I kind of feel a bit put off. It's like when you forget to wear your watch, you feel a wee bit naked. Yes, I feel like that. If I don't make my, you know, morning breakfast the same way every day. Mm.

[A]

I'm curious if we were to take it to a workplace setting for a minute, like in, in harnessing, say specifically ADHD in the workplace, what would that look like? How do we do that, do you think? And I think that's a very broad question.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, very easily and with some intention and commitment from a whole bunch of people. Like, it's actually harnessing. ADHD is cultural, so it's not about processes yet. It starts with processes. So it's like, how do we. What are the Reasonable accommodations we can make for somebody to not give them a leg up, but to level the playing field. And essentially that's all it is. It's just offering alternatives. We have, you know, here in New Zealand we've got the Employment Relations Act. It's been around for a good 20 years. The key part to that is the word relations. So it's a relationship between, you know, the organization and the employee or the employer and the employee or the manager and the staff member. And that's the key with harnessing adhd is how do we. How do we enhance that relationship between those two individuals? Notwithstanding that managers can have ADHD too. But often we think of it as being the staff member is being managed by a neurotypical leader. But it's about how do we have a better relationship where both are curious, where we talk about, hey, I've noticed this maybe in terms of your time management or your delivery of work or the cadence of work and effort and energy in your day. And just talking about that now, the thing that we hate as ADHD is, is we're waiting for people to find us out, right? So when someone says, hey, can I have a chat about just some stuff I've noticed about your work pattern, we shit ourselves.

[A]

Yeah, I'm getting fired. Yeah, I've done something wrong.

[B]

So what we're going to do in our workplaces is make, and this is where it becomes cultural, is make it really easy to have those conversations where we know that the request to have that WeChat comes from a place of kindness, comes from a place of fuck, you're already here doing the work. We trust you like you're one of us. How do we make that better for you? Because what we're doing is this ridiculous thing. We pay people 100% of their salary and yet we allow people to not work at 100% of their capacity because of the way we set up that work environment, the way the culture of our place, the way the processes and practices we have, the behaviors, the stereotypical expectations we have actually force some of us to turn up to work and hide parts of who we are and just restrict ourselves or put a bit of a glass ceiling on and go, actually, I'm not going to. I can't give too much away because they might figure out that I really struggle with navigating spreadsheets, even though I've made that look really normal or like I'm coping for four years when in.

[A]

Actual fact I stay up till midnight doing that.

[B]

Yeah, 100%, right? And so how do we just talk about that?

[A]

I think curiosity is so useful. You mentioned that word early on. Like when we're both curious, like, say we're the employee and then our team leader is curious. Like, oh, I wonder why they keep turning up late. I wonder why, you know, they, they, they struggle with putting that into words or into a spreadsheet. Let's have a conversation, you know, with that. Curiosity, I think is so useful.

[B]

Curiosity and what you're noticing and then talking about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No point noticing stuff and not doing anything with it. And it's how we raise that as well. And everybody's curious. Lots of people, I mean, we're amazing notices. We notice things more than. Oh, yeah, most. Right. And so that helps us form a better relationship with say, a neurotypical manager. If that's the dynamic there as well, is being able to talk about. These are the things I've noticed. And this is how not only I think you could lead me better, but how I could be a better follower, if that's even a thing. Because that's the relationship. Right. Like everybody, both people have some obligations in that and some responsibilities and we need to sort of step into that. And I think that's what, like, I've got on this mug, ADHD positive. That's what I, I refer to.

[A]

And you must get some pushback on that. I remember watching one of your webinar replays and somebody pushed on that and I was like, oh, I get a.

[B]

Lot of shit from it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or about it. But I refuse to sort of relent on that because some people think that I, that I'm diminishing the plight of, of the struggles and frustrations people have with adhd. I don't do that at all. Like, I struggle with stuff day in and day out, the same sort of frustrations that I can't shake. But I'm not going to, I refuse to beat myself up over those things as well. And I also know, and I do know this, that my ADHD gives me some abilities and some strengths in areas like the benefits of having my ADHD brain far outweigh the negatives. It is a shame that the label ADHD is negatively geared. Like it's deficit and disordered based. It doesn't help it. Like, and I, you know, I get that that's out of the diagnosis process comes out of where are people having some issues or some struggles? Because we don't diagnose things that are positive in psychiatry, in psychology. Like, you don't when, when you're thriving. You don't go to a psychiatrist. Right. It's when you're struggling with some things. And so all these things have come out of being sort of negative. Yet that doesn't mean that the way our brains operate and the way we experience in the world doesn't have some benefits. Like, I've got. I've got some really cool things I can do. You will too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everybody who listens to this episode, to this whole podcast who has adhd, has some phenomenal abilities. Now, the problem is because they come naturally to us, and we've been conditioned to believe that success comes from hard work. When we don't have to try, we don't value the things that we can do. Like, and we also, again, can't explain them. People go, how do you do that? And go, I don't know, I just do it. Right. Yeah, exactly. And so that's actually us diminishing not only our value and our worth, but also what people see in us.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

As well. We're not giving them the opportunity to go.

[A]

Just brushing it off.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, brushing it off and going, oh, shucks, it's nothing. Because it actually is nothing to us. It comes naturally. It's so easy. And we, we. But like I, again, using a spreadsheet example, I can't marry up rows and columns on a spreadsheet. Numbers that have, like, multiple of the same digits. I can't tell if there's two or four of them there. Right. And so people who can work with spreadsheets, I think are gods. I think they're amazing. Yeah, right.

[A]

Ninjas.

[B]

And yet some of the things like my ability to see people's energy and how they show up, I don't know how that works, but I can do it.

[A]

Yeah, you can read a room like, like no man's business. Like. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I think that's also that, that, that coexisting sort of conditions that, like dyslexics are really high in empathy. That has nothing to do with reading, writing, spelling, et cetera. But it's a fact. Dyslexics are really big empaths. And we don't understand that. We don't. We don't give credit for that. But when you overlay dyslexia and adhd, then there's some magic that can happen. But that magic is. Is different for each individual. I know autism, New Zealand believe that sort of around 80% of their members also have ADHD. So that coexistence there is quite high. It's not Guaranteed. But what that means is that people can have a different experience as well. And that's the beauty of it.

[A]

I always say to my partner. Yeah. And I always say to my partner when he talks about some sort of normal thing, and I always say to him, you couldn't pay me enough money to be neurotypical. You couldn't pay me enough to take away my adhd. I don't want a neurotypical brain.

[B]

I don't want to.

[A]

Whatever that is, whatever. I don't want that because then I wouldn't be me. I wouldn't have all of the fun things that make me who I am and all of the, the unique points of difference that I have. I wouldn't have that. And I love that stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, do I still struggle? Yes, of course. Is there some. That's really, really hard for me. Yes. And I love the things that I do differently. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And, and that's a, like, I think gets us into the conversation around medication, which is really useful, but it does help us fit into that neurotypical world. And sometimes that pisses me off. I'm like, why should I have to fit in?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But it's kind of useful. It means, you know, it dumbs down the noise, levels me out, and allows me to then do the work I need to do to focus.

[A]

But I also respect the people who, who, who sort of cycle it or choose not to use it all of the time because they don't like how it might dull their creativity or their way of thinking and being in the world that, you know, helps them to, to do what it is they're trying to do. Yeah, but then I get that, especially when we're trying to fit into the 9 to 5 lifestyle of perhaps, you know, working for somebody else or even myself. Like, I take my medication most days because it does really help me to focus at work and get done. So, yeah, I value both sides of that.

[B]

I'm very choosy on it because it does dumb down my creativity. My kids notice that.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

A lot. But it also helps me to remember that I do have kids because some days, you know, when they were younger, from someone's house.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And that's not out of a lack of love, that's just out of my interest. You know, focus was, was somewhere else. Like I was deep, I was hyper focused. But also I don't use it in certain work that I do as well because when I, when I do take it, I find it dumbs down my ability to sort of Notice the little tweaks around the edges of a. Of an audience. Okay. Etc. So when I speak at a conference, I don't take it. When I run workshops. Workshops I do. Yeah. When I'm coaching, I do as well on those days. So I actually set up my. My week. So it allows me to have, you know, those sort of drug holidays. Just not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not to take it on. On certain days, but to take it on others. And that's what I also love about methylphenidate that I hear we are saying. I love drugs. What I love about it is it's in and out of your system.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And that's so useful.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You can get it out quick. Yeah, yeah. One of the things we talked about when we caught up was making it safe to be different. And that has stuck with me ever since our conversation, because I think whether it be in a relationship, you know, romantic relationship, friendship, or in the workplace, when we make it safe for somebody else to be different or other people around us to be different, that I think is literally life changing. I think.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I think that's what. I think that's what most, like, kids do that naturally, but I think it's most. What most adults want is to have their differences noticed and for our differences to be regarded as being all good.

[A]

Okay, accepted. No problem.

[B]

Yeah, no.

[A]

No problem.

[B]

Yeah. Come. Come and fit in. And that's why I think that a lot of this conversation, you know, a lot of the. The work I do is marketed on harnessing neurodiversity, but actually it's about harnessing everybody's difference and the difference that they hide. So it doesn't matter if you're neurodiverse or neurotypical. Everybody does things a little bit differently. And what are those things? Because I think that brings the. That brings out the amazingness. It's also in, like, in a relationship, like, it's our differences that people love. They're the things that are attracted to us. And I think as ADHD is, we've tried to hide those things and for so long. And yet they're the things that our friends and family and, you know, partners love about us that we don't think they notice that we think we've done an amazing job at hiding. And it's one of those. And. And I think that's evidenced by when we. When you get diagnosed and you go, oh, my God, I've just found out I've got adhd. And all your friends go, well, of course you have.

[A]

You could have said something. Thanks. I know we've gone.

[B]

What? I've done 44 years.

[A]

You think you could have mentioned that earlier. Yeah, because.

[B]

Because when we get to put a label on something or when we get to describe a difference, people go, yeah, I can totally see that. And that actually gives people permission to then talk about the stuff that they like and love. And this is the safety.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, at work where we talk about, like, I have this really stupid but incredibly effective activity that I didn't make up that lots of people do. And it's simply about, how do you hang up your washing? Like, what are your preferences? So you've got a big load of washing, you've got the. And you. It's all the cardinal sins of laundry all in there. You've got coloreds, you've got whites, you've got sheets, you've got socks, undies, shirts, pants, everything. Right. Massive washing machine, massive load, all done. You've got one of those rotary clothes.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. They were fun as a kid.

[B]

A bunch of colored pigs. You have enough pigs for every single item. So you're not, you know, you're not.

[A]

Obviously I double up. Like, I'll put, like, I'll clip one pig, like one T shirt. So I'll put my T shirt on the line, right? One peg either end. But then as I go grab the pair of shorts, I clip the start of the shorts on the end of the T shirt.

[B]

Right. Do you hang? How do you. Some people forget. Or by the waist.

[A]

Oh, by the waist, right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah. And I'll do two pairs of socks. So I'll group the socks, right? My two pink socks are together and on one. One peg. So they're.

[B]

Or the toe end.

[A]

Good question. Ankle.

[B]

Yeah. Right. Interesting, interesting. So it's these sort of details that when you. You go through this process, you see what people's preferences are. Yes, some neurodivergence comes out in this, but also what we tend to get is people repeating the way that their parents hung up washing as well. And some things that they've learned.

[A]

I think I do repeat what my mum did. I don't think my dad ever hung up washing in his life.

[B]

And these are all brilliant discussion points. And this is the thing, because not many people's job is to hang up washing, Right. So it's removed from work, so it actually makes it a really safe topic.

[A]

Yes. Or you could ask about the dishwasher because, man, I bet that would get some heated debates because my, my Partner loads it like a meth addict. Like, there is no rhyme or reason. And I could fit twice as much in as he could.

[B]

Same. And adhders are amazing at stacking a dishwasher. We think that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

A lot of people assume that we're chaotic in that. But actually, really, when you get that down, a good. A down pat dishwasher pack is.

[A]

Yeah. That's so satisfying. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't want to have to put all the things away necessarily, but man, I can load that.

[B]

So question for you then, Zena. Are you a handles up or down in the dishwasher basket? The utensils basket.

[A]

Oh. So the night the. The stabby fork. The stabby knives go down, but, like, forks are up, teaspoons are down.

[B]

Well, I don't know. Grab.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

You're gonna touch the bit, you're gonna throw in your mouth.

[A]

Valid. Oh, my gosh. I'm gonna have to rethink this plan because that already.

[B]

It's not right or wrong.

[A]

Sure about. No. But I don't empty it. The kids do sometimes. So now I'm freaked out. What about the grubby little hands?

[B]

There you go. Right. All sorts of questions popping up from this. But that's really interesting that you put some handles up and some handles down. I love that.

[A]

I love how different we all are in this. And already I'm like questioning my life choices around the dishwasher.

[B]

Okay. So there's the ripple effect of this. It's like, where do our patterns of behavior around how we hang up with washing or stack the dishwasher? How do they. What are the ripples of that in terms of how that similar mindset or attitude or behavior or principles or values even sort of splay out into other areas of our life and work?

[A]

And who. Who decided what's the right way?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this is. There are loads of right ways.

[B]

Yes. And it's all. If it's all made up, that means we have permission to change some stuff. And this is where the safety comes in. To come back to your question, which I'm saying so stoked I managed to do.

[A]

Nailed it.

[B]

That it's about where do we do things differently and how do we make it safe to talk about those things? So the. The way to make it safe is to talk about something that's not related to the thing that we're actually talking about and then go, okay, so if we took our mindset to stacking the dishwasher, how we individually do that in our team And, And. And what's important when we stack the dishwasher and the principles and the values behind that sort of our internal ethos. How do we take that to this task we now need to do as a team? And that's a fascinating conversation for teams to have that nobody but is really, really useful to then go, huh? Okay. And it also helps break down barriers so someone gets known as the, you know, the shit dishwasher, stacker and whatever else. But so you can have some banter around that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So humor helps, but also it helps to be curious and breaks down some barriers in order for it to be safe to talk about, you know, Alex's weird way of going about presenting a report. And. But it also talks about. It helps talk about the things that annoy us about our colleagues.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

As well. It just makes it easier and I.

[A]

Think helps you understand them a little bit better and perhaps even appreciate maybe where they're coming from in certain.

[B]

ADHD have just talked about some. Some routine, everyday things, but how we are the people who make talking about difference accessible. And yet that's the thing we have been sort of shitting ourselves over for decades. It's like, when will. You know, sooner or later people will find out that, you know, I'm not as good at such and such as they think I might be. And we hide that and we're scared of being found out. And yet we're the people who. Who help facilitate the finding out other people's edges. This is that whole where difference lies lies, the ability to make a difference. People who unlock that for everyone else.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. One of the things we talked about a little more at the beginning was, like, the fun, like the playfulness. And I would love to come back to that because I think in a workplace especially, we take things so seriously.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yet we're the people who can bring the play the fun. How do you think we get back to that?

[B]

I guess one of the caveats here is we. We can't like ADHD is a reason, it's not an excuse. I couldn't turn up 100 this podcast recording and go, oh, you know, my time blindness, so you can just wait for me. Like, we're adults, we're mature, we're professional. We've got to be all of those things. Right. And so it's a reason, not an excuse. However, I also think professionalism and being adult is often an excuse in itself. We can't be playful. We can't have fun at work because it's seen as being unproductive. And yet I know the times when I was, you know, an employee of an organization or some people, the times that I had fun unlocked amazing productivity. Because.

[A]

Yes, agreed.

[B]

You can't be on all the time. Right. You've got to have a wee bit of fun. And if we can mix, and often what we. We do is you go, okay, down tools, go and have some fun, then come back to the boring work. It's like, if you could mix fun and work to be, you know, the same experience, then you're far more productive. But also you're engaged and you're. You're satisfied and you're happy and. And you're into it. Like, it just makes absolute sense to make the actual work we're doing a bit more fun. And again, like we said right at the start, it's all made up. Like, nothing about work is a natural process.

[A]

Everything's made up.

[B]

The technology we're using, the ideas, the.

[A]

Laws and rules we follow in society, all of it. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So play with that. And, but. And I think if you're a leader, like, give. Give people permission to play with the rules as well.

[A]

Yeah. I love the word play. I use that so much in my coaching. But I think even coming back to the word professionalism, I think that that's problematic. That word, like, when I, when I think of that, I associate that word with, like, having to wear a suit and, and, you know, be very proper, and I'm not allowed to swear and all of these sorts of things. And I think for me, I've played with the definition of, well, what is professionalism for me and what does that look like in my role? What do I want that to look like? I want to normalize difference. I want to normalize. We're adults. We're allowed to swear. We're allowed to wear bright colors. We're allowed to wear cat T shirts, you know, with a suit jacket, if you want, like, and. And make it be more playful in what professionalism looks like for me. Because I think, again, that the word like, oh, you know, we've got to adult, we've got to be professional. I think that those are barriers to. To having fun in the workplace and embracing that.

[B]

I think a lot of people who are enforcing what professionalism looks like are really those people who just don't feel safe to play.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As well. And so it's their own insecurities.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Coming out, maybe, but it's like. And granted, we've also got to be safe. Right. So playfulness Isn't about throwing bottles around a work site or, you know, it.

[A]

Does not sound safe. Exactly.

[B]

But you're allowed to have a bit of fun and a bit of. Bit of banter and. And I think banter's really important too. Like, it's fascinating. And I find that really curious because it's like when we're kind of just throwing lines back and forth, having a bit of a joke with people, we're figuring out where those boundaries are for each individual as well. And if we're able to do that in a way that is safe and kind, and when we slip up, we feel. Fess up and go, look, I'm really sorry. That was clearly too far. Which ADHD is. We do take things a bit too far every now and then and sort of get. Get caught out. Or we could just get too wrapped up in a situation and go too far.

[A]

And I also think we're quick to. To say something, though. Oh, my God, I didn't mean it like that. I had a situation just the other day at the gym. I was. I was biking next to a woman, and this is maybe like my second or third session. And I don't know how the hell to use the display on this machine. And I'm trying to. Trying so hard in my head to remember the instructions. And it was something like, pedal for fast for six seconds every minute. And I'm just trying to remember that. And. And like, look at this dial. Anyway, and she looks over at me and she goes, wow, that's a really good number. And I was like, what number? And she goes, oh, the watts. That Watts there. 675. She's like, that's really good. She said, I've only ever got to 625. And I went, oh, well, this really sucks. And I don't think she understood that. I mean, not your number sucks that you've got to. I was like, pedaling this hard just to get that number sucks. Like, this works. Doing this workout sucks. And then she kind of went quiet and I registered, oh, I think I took that a little too far. I don't think she understood what I mean. Of course. I was like, oh, just to clarify, I didn't mean what you are doing sucks. I said, this workout sucks. Okay? And she's like, yeah, you're all good. And I was like, oh, thank God.

[B]

Yeah, but that's the thing, like. And like, if I was you, I would be dwelling on that for days.

[A]

Right. If I hadn't said anything then I knew. And we Were just starting the workout. I knew I wouldn't be able to let that go. Oh, God. She thinks I'm an idiot or I'm a horrible person or whatever. Like, so I had to say something.

[B]

That's a really important point. Like, actually just stepping up and going, look, I just need to clarify this. That was not about you. That was about me and about the work, the workout.

[A]

That was about me struggling, my legs hurting. It wasn't about you.

[B]

675 watts.

[A]

Yeah. And then the next time. So we did it a few weeks later, I got to 7o or 769. 769. I've been writing the numbers down. My trainer's like, keep an eye on the numbers. He's like, you've got the strongest leagues out of everyone. I was like, really? What does that mean?

[B]

Yeah, this sucks still.

[A]

This sucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh. So I do want to come back to one last thing before I get you to tell everybody where to find you, because they need to come and hang out with you. But we talked just very briefly about authenticity last time. And I'm curious after that, like, little conversation that we had when we caught up. Have you had any other things. Thoughts around that? Because you talked about this vision you have of creating radically authentic workplaces. And one of the things I said to you when we caught up, and we caught up, like, I think 20 minutes, maybe a couple of weeks back, is I said, I really appreciate your authenticity. That was something that I. I loved about you. I just met you, and I. And I just loved that you radiate that. And I really feel a sense of, like, genuineness from you. And I remember you saying to me, how do you know that? And I was like, I don't know. I just do. Like, don't make me reverse engineer it. Right. Which is something we've talked about. I don't know how I know it. I just know it. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm just curious if you've had any more thoughts since then or anything you wanted to add to that.

[B]

Oh, look, so much has happened since.

[A]

I can't remember what happened yesterday.

[B]

Authenticity is really important to me because I've never felt. That's such a big statement. I've never felt safe to be authentic. That's not true. I show up as authentically as possible. I'm always worried that people won't take me the way I hope they will. And so. And I think also the workplace is the perfect sort of petri dish or experimental lab that we can play with these sorts of things. And we spend so much of our lives at work. Doesn't matter how many hours or where you work or how many workplaces you work at, we spend a large chunk of our life at work or in work. And so it's got to feel like we are of value, being valued, offer value, all this sort of, you know, good, fluffy stuff. But that's really important. And the only way to do that is if we get to show up authentically and to be our authentic selves. And I have. I've struggled a lot with that personally, but I've also not struggled to be authentic because I think it's easier to be myself than it is to hide and mask and all that sort of thing. And, yeah, I've built up a bunch of habits which are about masking who I am and how I. How I show up. But I think I probably show up as you've identified more authentically me than I think I do. Yeah. And also there's the. There's a slight element of, well, when we're used to masking who we are and you finally get diagnosed and which is partly some permission to then go, I don't actually have to hide as much of myself anymore. We. What I did, and I know a lot of people with ADHD that I talk to also did or do is go, well, actually, who the hell am I? Like, who am I without my ADHD mask on? And the thing is, well, you are yourself. And part of the. Part of the hiding who you are from time to time, but not all the time, is actually a characteristic. You know, it's a personality trait. And it's a great thing with a. We're good masters of disguise. But also the flip side of that, and that's the ADHD positivity side, is that that means that we can mold ourselves to be who and how other people need us to be. So. And I don't mean to be. To pretend or to be fraudulent or anything like that, but if people need us to be a bit more compassionate, we can do that. If people need us to be a bit more energetic, we can do that.

[A]

Yes, it is a wee bit. It's a useful skill to have. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I think that there's an element of authenticity in that as well. I think the other part, which you probably noticed when we first chatted, is there's. There's so much of life that I just don't give a about. Like I've just had to let go of. Of trying to be this good little boy that I always wanted to be in, you know, primary school and in high and just to, to, to fit in. That doesn't mean that I'm reckless. That doesn't mean that I'm mean. It doesn't mean that I'm unreliable or even unprofessional. Well, maybe sometimes I am, but I don't care because again, coming back to the tiny pools example, people either either love me or the. Or I'm not for them. And that's okay because that saves us a whole bunch of work trying me trying to convince you that I'm for you when actually I'm, I'm not going to be. And I think also when it comes back to that sort of radically authentic workplaces is nobody says we have to be friends with everybody in the workplace.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's not saying, actually, I hate you. I don't want anything to do with you. It's just going.

[A]

But I love to remind people, like, you don't like everybody, so you don't want everybody to like you. Right.

[B]

That's a lot of work.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of peopling. Like I'm not here for that. Yeah.

[B]

Well, so I mean, I think we, we struggle with that as ADHDers as well as going, oh, actually I don't like everybody, but God, I want everyone to like me. Yes.

[A]

Oh, don't get me wrong. Like. Yeah, yeah. I have to coach myself through that quite often, I think. Look, I've reflected a little bit on this authenticity conversation and I think that authenticity requires two things. It requires self safety. So safety from yourself, to be yourself and to have a safe place to land if and when that's not necessarily well received because again, not everybody's going to like you. And also it requires, I think, the safety of our, our environment, shall we say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To be ourselves. And there may be some environments you choose not to put yourself in.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Because it, you know, it limits your ability to be authentic or to feel safe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Does that make sense?

[B]

100 it makes sense. And I think that plays to our almost natural ability to like, we can just sniff stuff out. Like we have a hunch, gut feel.

[A]

Sniff out. So good.

[B]

100 and don't we get disappointed when we don't trust our gut? Should have done that.

[A]

I should have listened.

[B]

Shouldn't have done that or whatever else. And it's like, like we know we have a knowing. We're amazing, like intuitive creatures, us. ADHD is. And we should, we should back ourselves with that as well and go actually yeah, not my people or. Well, these are my people, like, and I'm a bit nervous about approaching them, but I, like, I just know this. So let's. Let's give it a call.

[A]

Yeah? Yeah. All right. Tell everybody, Callum. Tell everybody where they can find you if they're interested in hanging out with you, working with you, connecting with you. Tell us all the things.

[B]

Cool. Well, I don't have many sort of social media accounts. I do LinkedIn because that's useful. So you find me there. Callum McCurdy. I've also got a website, which, handily, is just my name. Callum McCurdy dot com. I'm always up, like you easily contact me through there. I'm always up for a chat. I love. I do love coaching and workshops and conferences, but I guess the main thing of what I do is I help people see their own value and that's individual and that's really nourishing for both me and that person as well. So I get a lot out of that. But look, I no longer do a newsletter. I think we just get inundated with stuff in inboxes, and so I just prefer if people just get in touch over email through my site, callumakuda.com or LinkedIn. Happy to have a chat and just go, go from there because.

[A]

Wonderful. Yeah, I'll link all of that too. Yeah, I'll link it in the show.

[B]

If I'm for you, then let's do some stuff. But if not, hey, that's cool.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing with us. This has been such a fun conversation. I'm so glad we did this.

[B]

Thank you. Thanks so much for the invite. It's been lovely chatting. Thank you.

[A]

Hey, friend, if you want some more help navigating and thriving with ADHD and some help applying everything that you're learning here on the podcast, then head over to our website, Navigating adultadhd. Com.