A (0:03)

You are listening to the Navigating Adult ADHD Podcast with your ADHD coach and expert, Xena. Hello, my beautiful friend. Welcome back. Today we are Navigating Adult ADHD together. Now, as I went to hit record on this episode, I thought, oh, my gosh, I have so much to tell you. Literally, just yesterday I was like, oh, my gosh, I have to tell my podcast listeners about this, and for the life of me, I have no idea what it was I was going to share with you. Okay? But you can Bet that at 3am it'll come back to me. So when I think of it, I'm going to make a note and I will tell you next episode. I know there were a lot of life updates and just things I'd learned recently about adhd. I think there was some medication stuff too. I really wanted to share, but no, not in my brain. Not today. It's not happening. So instead, let's dive straight in. Let's talk all about something that a lot of ADHDers quietly Google at 1am in the morning, and that is PDA, or pathological demand avoidance, as it is known by the full name. It is that feeling of as soon as something becomes a have to do it, your brain goes, hell no. Even when it's something that you actually want to do. So it could be, you know, going to the gym, booking in a doctor's appointment, cleaning the bathroom sink that you've been staring at for weeks, or replying to a text message from a friend. Okay, so as always, my friend, I am not here to diagnose you. I'm here to help you understand your brain a little bit more. Now, pda, interestingly enough, it's actually not an official diagnosis. I'm using air quotes, not that you can see that, but it's not actually an official diagnosis in the big manuals yet, but it's more of a kind of pattern of behavior, a profile that a lot of us ADHDers can relate to. So we are going to explore what PDA is, what it can look like in adults with adhd, and also how this differs from odd, which is oppositional defiance disorder, both of which are very common for people with neurodivergent brains. And we're also going to talk about what you can actually do with this information so that it becomes useful. I'm going to share with you some of the strategies that I use and that I teach to the students, the clients that I work with. All right, so from the top, what is pda? So I want you to Imagine that you have been asked to give a presentation at work. Now maybe you want to do it, maybe it's part of your job, but when you stand up there in front of this group of people, your body floods with panic, your brain freezes, your heart races, you just want to bolt out of the room, right? Internally you're just like screaming at the person who asked you to do this. Most people have felt some version of that in a high pressure situation. Okay, now imagine that your nervous system reacts like that to almost any demand or expectation. Send that email, put a load of washing on, brush your teeth, even do that hobby that you love. So that's the flavour of what people mean when they're talking about pda, okay? And that can be a really helpful way to explain it to somebody who doesn't understand it, okay? So PDA stands for, as I said, pathological demand avoidance. And in the research it is described as a behavioral profile most often seen in neurodivergent people. So especially people with autism and also adhd where there is an intense anxiety driven avoidance of everyday demands. And this piece here, okay, so, so we know that we like, you know, avoid doing the things that we think air quotes we should do, but also a very strong need for control or autonomy to feel safe. Now it wasn't until I started researching this recently that I learned the autonomy connection. I knew amount about the demands of everyday life, the strong sort of need for control, but the autonomy to feel safe. I was like, oh, that makes so much sense to me because autonomy is often a value that I see being very strong and very present in people with adhd. We value autonomy, we value having that freedom, okay? Especially when it comes to our own safety. So here's what this could look like. You decide that you're going to do the dishes, but then somebody tells you to do the dishes or asks you could you do the dishes? So what happens? You become angry, stressed out, you decide not to do them. Or it's when someone telling you to do something could make you like really irritated and like you really do not want to do it now just because they've told you to do it. Like really resisting that if somebody texts you and you feel the expectation to respond immediately and then you just ignore the text and you grow more anxious each day thinking, oh my God, I should reply to that, I have to reply to that. Etc. The other day actually, somebody shared with me how eating protein for breakfast became a demand and something that they've since avoided as soon as they learned that it Was actually quite helpful for people with ADHD to have protein with their medication, with their breakfast in that first meal of the day. As soon as they learned that, it became something that they felt like they should do, like this demand, and they just, you know, middle fingers up that I'm out, and they stopped doing it. And the funny thing was is that before that, they were actually having protein with their breakfast. And as soon as they learned that, they were like, nope, I unsubscribe. Like, this is one that I've experienced. I can decide myself, I'm going to go clean the kitchen and, like, feel fine about that. But then if my partner asks me, hey, do you mind cleaning the kitchen while I do xyz, suddenly it is a whole damn thing. It's like, fuck, no, I don't want to do that. Okay, so I'm going to go through some common traits and characteristics that are shared by people who experience pda. So as I said, that need for autonomy and control, resisting demands of everyday life, often very sort of basic demands like, you know, doing the laundry, cooking and cleaning, and, you know, making appointments or brushing your teeth, those sorts of things. You might even experience, like a resistance to activities and things that you enjoy, Whether that be you enjoy hiking or water sports or crocheting and knitting, whatever it is like, even resisting the things that you enjoy. Sometimes people can be seen as people who experience this can become quite passive or like a watchful observer. So I've seen this in myself when I have been in certain social situations, just really sitting back instead of sort of engaging. Even like I think of going to networking events in the past, it's not something I do now, but in the past, when I would do this, feeling like I should engage and I have to engage and that's what I'm here for. And instead just kind of sitting on the outskirts, sipping a glass of wine. Also sometimes having difficulty with hierarchy, not recognizing it or respecting it, hierarchy or authority. Sometimes even using fantasy as a way to sort of escape or avoid demands. And there's also a social connection here. So people who experience PDA can often appear quite outgoing in social situations or quite interested in social situations, but they can have difficulty with maintaining sort of deeper relationships, sort of below the surface relationships, and also may have trouble with sort of interpreting social interactions or situations. So most of the research actually talks about PDA in autism. Okay. So I find that very interesting. Like, and especially in children, there's a lot of research as it relates to children. There's a little bit on adhd, but not as much. However, the majority of people that I have worked with, my students, my clients, talk about this and relate to it. Okay? So it's definitely very prevalent in US ADHDers too. And there is some research, but unfortunately not as much. So, you know, people, as I said with ADHD, especially those late diagnosed, but also the Audi HDs, right, the combination of autism and ADHD, they often listen to the description of PDA and go, holy shit. That explains my whole life with demands, right? So in this episode, we are using PDA as a lens to really understand why some ADHD brains react so strongly to those demands, to those expectations. Now, some clinicians, some advocates prefer a less. Gosh, what's that fancy term? Pathologizing? I can never say it like they prefer a less, let's say harsh name or whatever. And the name anyway is persistent or pervasive drive for autonomy. I like this persistent drive for autonomy instead of pathological demand avoidance, because that's it. Like, for me personally, like, I really resonate with that. It is a persistent drive for autonomy. Don't tell me what to do. I need to decide to do it and I need to do it my way, not your way. Okay? And I love that because it really does center on what's actually going on. There is a real powerful drive for autonomy which can come crosses control for, you know, safety, for our nervous system. It's not that we're trying to be difficult. We are trying to approach things in a way in which our nervous system, our internal body, responds well to. Okay, so here's what PDA can look like in adults with adhd. Now listen up, my friend, because you might recognize yourself in here, right? The second something switches from I want to, like, I want to do this into a have to or a should do, your motivation evaporates, just disappears. Even if you were excited five minutes ago about doing that, you say yes to things and then feel this rising panic as the date gets closer, like you're stuck in a trap. Omg, that is so me. I have learned not to say yes to anything that happens in the evening because I will feel trapped. Another one is you forget to reply to emails or messages that feel like demands, even from people that you actually like, that you want to reply to. Again, that for me, is like, mm, I'm nodding, I'm nodding. With you, my friend, you find really clever ways to dodge requests. So that could be joking. It could be changing the subject over explaining, negotiating, or just saying, later, later, I'll get to that. Later. It's so funny because as I'm saying, some of these, I can really see my partner in here. Don't tell him, but I do wonder if he has some autistic traits going on. But I definitely see that, like he will always be like, I'll do it later. He says to me, I live in daytight compartments. Ask me tomorrow. I'm like, I need to know now. So funny. Another one on my list here is self imposed demands hitting just as hard. Things like, I should work on my business, I have to go to the gym. Even when it's things that you want to do. As soon as it becomes like a should or a have to, then you find yourself, you know, lying on the bed, scrolling on your phone. The more someone pushes you, the more your nervous system pushes back, okay? And it could be that you respond with like anger or shutdown. So from the outside people might see this and maybe you've even thought of yourself in this way as being lazy or flaky or self sabotaging or deformed, defiant or having commitment issues. But on the inside, it often feels like a real tug of war. I want to, but I just can't make myself do it. Okay? And then of course, ADHD adds another layer because already we're struggling with executive function issues. There's time blindness, there's rejection sensitivity, there's a whole heap of shame about past experiences, about not following through. So now we've got a brain that struggles to start, gets flooded with shame, feels even more threatened by demands, avoids more, collects more data, more evidence to feel shame. Hello, demand avoidance spiral. So another example could be, you know that eating real food is going to make you feel better and you want to feel better, but the moment it turns into a I should cook, I have to eat properly, your nervous system files it under threat. Suddenly you are scrolling, you are snacking, you are literally doing anything else that feels better. When I was doing some research on this, one woman described it as my PDA gets triggered by me and my own needs. I was like, yes, yes it does. So I want to touch quickly on the difference between PDA and odd. Okay, so PDA pathological demand avoidance, that's what we're talking about today. And odd, which is oppositional defiance disorder, because people often confuse them and they are more commonly diagnosed in children who have, what, I'm using air quotes, is considered sort of severe behavioural issues or challenges. Okay, so on the surface they both look quite similar. You're not doing what's asked, you're pushing back against the rules or expectations. But the why underneath, under the surface, is very, very different. Okay. PDA is mainly driven by anxiety and a need for control or autonomy in order to feel safe. So demands feel like a threat to the nervous system, which means we hit the eject button, we're out of this now. Odd, okay? Oppositional Defiance disorder is more about a pattern of anger, irritability, and a real defiance towards any authority figures. So it's not just in response to feeling trapped, it's sort of more bigger picture than that. Okay. It's frequent arguing, deliberately trying to annoy or upset other people, holding grudges, that kind of a thing. So if we zoom out, PDA is I can't do this because my system feels unsafe. And odd is I won't do this because I'm angry, I'm resentful, I'm pushing back. Now, of course, my friend, life is messy and we can have both sets of these traits. But seeing the differences here can also really help us to choose a form of support that is really calming and collaborative on our needs. So the label matters less than how we respond. If someone's behavior is anxiety driven and we respond with more pressure or punishment, or look, you just need to try harder, we are accidentally turning up the alarm system, we are making it worse. Now if instead we respond with autonomy, giving them some freedom, some collaboration, some flexibility, and some nervous system support, things tend to get a lot better. The outcome for both parties is going to be a lot better. So, my friend, if you are listening and thinking, shit, this is uncomfortably accurate. I've had people say to me before, and I love this, it sounds like you are in my brain, or I feel like you're fine following me around with a tiny camera. I'm like, yeah, that's because I get it, my friend. I'm just like you. So if you're listening, if this is very accurate, take a breath with me. This is not a character assassination and this is definitely not a verdict of your self worth. Okay? It's simply a lens that might help to understand and explain why demands can feel so heavy. Even the ones like that you want to do, even the ones that you choose to do. So I also just want to mention that if this is bringing up any sort of grief about the past, any regrets about the way in which you have handled things throughout your life, that's okay. All right? Like I, I remember when I first learned about this, I felt kind of bad about some of the ways in which I had behaved in My past. And to be fair, that makes a lot of sense, right? We're learning why things have happened, okay? The school reports, the workplace feedback, the wasted potential. Comments, right? Completely normal. You were doing the best that you could at that time with the knowledge, the understanding, the brain and the tools that you had, okay? I just want to remind you of that. And learning about pda, being here right now, listening to this clicking play on this episode, you are giving your future self way more options, more tools, more support, okay? We're not here to blame you and your past, okay? So that being said, what can help? I want to share three things specifically that I focus on and we'll go through them all, right? Starting from the top. Number one, make demands feel safer and smaller. A big theme for supporting PDA is how can I make this feel less like a demand, like something I have to do or I should do, and more like a choice. So here are some ways that you could do that. Turning any have to's or should do's into could I try or I'm choosing to. For example, like when I look at my daily to do list, my little post it with the. The list of things to accomplish that day, I like to think of it as the list of things I'd like to get done today. It's not demands, it's not things I have to do and just that little shift in perspective, this is what I'd like to get done. These are the things I'd like to play with today. Also, you know, with brushing your teeth, which is something, this is something I struggled with a lot throughout my teenage years, right? I dentist bills. That's a whole nother episode. Anyway, I could brush my teeth if I want to instead of I have to brush my teeth, which just feels like, oh, fuck that, okay, so employing that like I could brush my teeth if I wanted to, it gives me my autonomy back. It gives me my choice back. Same task, different nervous system story, right? Suddenly the brain stops slamming on the brakes and giving the middle finger to that. Another really powerful way to do this is make like I talk about lowering the bar for entry. It's something I'm saying forever in my client calls and my group calls, lower the bar for entry. How can we make it so friggin low? I always think about a high jump bar. How can we lower it so friggin low that you can just literally step over it and, and you have achieved it, you have made a start. So making tasks, breaking them down into one minute steps, you know, one, two Five minute steps. Never more than five. Just tiny little micro step. Using soft starts is a really good way to do this. I'm just going to open the document, I'm just going to browse it and get a feel for it, an idea of what's in here, right? Or I'm just going to put my gym shoes on. I'm just going to walk for five minutes. That's it. Okay. Reducing the pressure, the time urgency where you can. And again, like, giving you your autonomy back. So one thing I see a lot in the demand avoidance, or actually I like to call it should avoidance. I like to say to people, is this demand avoidance or is this should avoidance? Because when I'm thinking, oh, I really should call the doctor and make an appointment, right? That feels like shit. Shoulding on yourself is shitting on yourself. Okay, I got a whole episode on that, my friends. But anytime we say should, it's like, ugh, like, it just feels heavy. I don't want to. It's awful. How, like, how can we change that? Is this really a demand avoidance or is it just an avoidance of the. Of the should? Right. And I'm, I'm all about doing the mindset work here and like breaking down the shoulds where that's coming from. Looking at how else we can approach this, because that game changer. Oh, my God. Can you hear the motorbikes? Like, I'm so pissed about this right now. And you're gonna hear about it. Total distraction. Here we go. So these kids just literally burned down the footpath on these motorcycles and they weren't even wearing helmets. Oh, my God. Like, this freaks me out, especially because we have teenage boys in this house and they seem to think that they should get motorcycles for Christmas or like dirt bikes or whatever. And I'm like, hell, no. Anyway. Okay, I know. Total sidetrack moment. I'm so sorry. I'm back, I'm back. All right, so number one is making demands feel safer and smaller. Right? Looking out for the shoulds. Right? Is it demand avoidance or should avoid? And the last thing I wanted to say on this before we move to number two is when I see demand avoidance in myself and others, it's very all or nothing. It's very like, either I have to clean the kitchen or I'm not going to clean it at all. And I love to, like, play with middle ground. Like, what would it look like if I was like, is there a middle ground? It's here. It's very black or white. I'm either doing it Or I'm not doing it. I was like, okay, well what if like I was to play with it? Maybe then I just throw a few things in the dishwasher. Maybe then I just wipe the kitchen bench, like if you can see what I mean here. And I don't want to go too long into this when we're very black and white like that, it's either we're doing it or we're not doing it. What would it. If you were to play with it, what would it look like to find a more middle ground? And again, this kind of speaks to the, like lowering the bar for entry. Just doing a tiny bit. I could wipe the benches, I could load the dishwasher, I could just put the leftovers in a container and throw them in the fridge. And then after that you might want to play with doing a little bit more. Okay, so number two, my friend, number two, increase autonomy. So remember that persistent drive for autonomy. You can really work with that instead of fighting against it. So I love to do this actually with the kids in the morning, is giving them options. Do you want to empty the dishwasher first or would you like to make your breakfast first? And they always just grab onto one and they're like, oh yeah, I want to do this first. And, and they just run with it. It's like it's their choice, like they've been given a choice. Whereas if I say, hey, do you want to empty the dishwasher? I'll be like, oh no, it sucks. Why can't so and so do the dishwasher? You know, like, no, but giving yourself options. Do I want to send this email first or do I want to throw the load of washing in the, in the machine? Okay, again, increasing autonomy, building some opt out points so that your brain knows it's not trapped. For me, what this looks like is I have a lot of white space in my calendar. I try very hard to never book back to back appointments in my calendar so that I have white space. I have breaks that are being built into my calendar that way. I've got some sort of opt out points also. And this is really big for those of us who are neurodivergent is leading ourselves do things our own way. Even if it's weird as fuck, even if it's non traditional. Let yourself do it that way. So often I hear from people in corporate environments who are like, you know, my, my colleagues don't get why I do it this way or, you know, they don't understand me or they think I Should do it like this. And I'm always sort of pushing for, keep doing what works for you, because that is your way. That if that's working for you, hell yes. Right. And sometimes we fight against that. We think that, oh, you know, neurotypical people do it like this. So I should do it like this. No, my friend. Okay. Let yourself do things your own way. Increase that autonomy. One of the ways I like to approach this is with the word play. So when I say to my clients, hey, like, I invite you to play with this tool. I'm often teaching them tools on my whiteboard. And I'll say, hey, I invite you to play with this tool throughout this next week. And then I'd love for you to come back to our session and tell me all about it. And again, it's like, there's no pressure in that. It's not a demand. You don't have to. But play with it. And playing with it might mean that you use it upside down or inside out or just a tiny piece of it. It doesn't matter because you're playing with it. So it's making it your own, having fun with it. Okay, number three, this one's huge. Regulate your nervous system, okay? Because the thing is that demands feel like a threat to our safety, to our nervous system. So this is where nervous system regulation tools are huge, huge, my friend. So whether that be using breath work, I've talked about the physiological sigh in here. The double, double inhale, long exhale through the mouth. The, you know, just breathing out longer than you breathe in. So if you breathe in, count for four, breathe out, count for six, anything like that. Okay. I'm not going to go too deep into it because there's shit, tons of breath work out there that you could look at. Okay, I've got guys. I'm so distracted today. My phone, unfortunately, is face up. Normally I don't even have it in here when I'm recording. And I just heard this funny noise downstairs. I'm home by myself right now. And then we have cameras. And the little alert on my phone goes, front door. Somebody has been spotted. And I'm like, oh, my God, what is going on? Had to share that with you. Okay, I'm sure it's just the delivery man, but listen to me, I'm super distracted today. But you know why I'm sharing this? Because I just want to normalize the fuck out of what it's like to live with ADHD and have a brain like this. Okay, good, excellent. Back to number three, which is regulating your nervous system. We talked about breath work. Movement breaks are really important. Moving your body, literally. If you can get outside, get into nature, fantastic. If you can't walk around the block, use the stairs, walk up and down them a couple of times, stand up, do a few air squats, whatever it is, anything like that is going to help you get out of your head and into, into your body, okay? Co regulation. So that is being with or connecting with, whether it be like phone call or texting with your safe people, okay? Body doubling can be really, really helpful for that as well. Sensory supports can really help our nervous system, whether that be noise canceling, headphones, weighted blankets, you know, like certain lighting, that sort of a thing. The goal is not to eliminate demands from your life, my friend, but it's to help your system feel safe enough. Play with them deliberately. I'm saying play with them, okay? Because the reality is we can't eliminate them. Now of course I have to say eft tapping, that's one of my favorite nervous system tools. That's one that I use almost daily, sometimes multiple times a day to really help regulate my own nervous system. Help me feel safer. Okay? So again, those three things that we've just talked about is number one, helping ourselves make demands feel safer and smaller, okay? Lowering the bar for entry, questioning the shoulds, the all or nothings. Number two, increasing the autonomy, okay? Giving ourselves options and building in that, that opt out or that white space. Again, approaching it with a more playful way. I love to say like if this is like let's just experiment, let's play with this, let's learn, let's gather data. As people with adhd, we're often very curious. We have a love of learning and we are our great project ever. We can learn so much from ourself by just experimenting with and playing with different things. Number three is regulating your nervous system. Okay? So my friend, to sum it up, pda, while it's not an official diagnosis, it is a really helpful way to understand the intense resistance that some of us have to demands. It is driven by anxiety and a need for for autonomy and safety, not laziness or being difficult. It is different from odd oppositional defiance disorder. As we explored the why underneath, the behavior is very different. And most importantly, we are not broken. We are not bad people for finding demands hard. Our brain is trying to protect us from something that feels like a threat to our nervous system. Okay, my friend, that is it for today's episode on ADHD and pda. Huge, huge love to you Take care out there. I'll speak to you soon. Hey friend, if you want some more help navigating and thriving with ADHD and some help applying everything that you're learning here on the podcast, then head over to our website, navigating adult adhd.com.