[BONUS] The Conversation We Kept Recording: Matt & Xena Go Deeper

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Navigating Adult ADHD

Episode: [BONUS] The Conversation We Kept Recording: Matt & Xena Go Deeper
Host: Xena Jones
Guest: Matt
Date: September 29, 2025

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Episode Overview

This bonus episode captures the spontaneous, honest, and insightful behind-the-scenes conversation between Xena Jones and her guest, Matt, following their main interview. Picking up mid-conversation, Xena and Matt dive deeper into the realities of living and thriving with ADHD as adults. Their candid discussion covers the importance of embracing imperfection, the transformative power of viewing routines as "practices," and the effectiveness of gamification for motivation—especially for ADHD brains. Both share personal anecdotes and practical tips while weaving in science-backed perspectives and a refreshingly no-nonsense tone.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Practice Over Perfection

• Shifting Mindset on Routine Activities:

  • Matt reframes his approach to exercise, diet, and self-care as "practice" rather than striving for perfection.
    • “I've been looking at my exercise or training…it's something I practice. It's a part of my routine and because it makes my life better.” (Matt, 01:36)
  • Xena echoes the value of consistent, imperfect effort:
    • “I like the word practice as well because it implies that it's not about doing it perfectly. It's a practice. It's…like we're still learning.” (Xena, 02:57)

• No One Does It Perfectly:

  • Matt, with 20+ years as a coach, highlights that no client has ever done everything perfectly, emphasizing the human element of progress.
    • “Not one single time in any instance has anyone done anything perfectly. Letter of the law.” (Matt, 03:59)

2. The Trap of Perfectionism

• Imperfect is Better than Perfect:
  • Xena shares her "TED talk idea"—the dangers of seeking perfection:
    • “Imperfect is better than perfect. Because perfect is the problem. Right. Like perfect is the problem…this idea that there's a right way to do it." (Xena, 04:15–04:21)
• Letting Go of Expectations:
  • Matt discusses how expectations can limit us or set unnecessary pressure:
    • “Why go on to anything with an expectation? ...You could be drastically underestimating yourself.” (Matt, 04:38)

3. Gamification and ADHD: Making Progress Fun

• Gamifying Goals in Fitness and Life:
  • Matt describes how introducing game-like elements (e.g., beating your last result by 5%) boosts motivation, dopamine, and engagement—not just for those with ADHD, but everyone.
    • “Let's not put the reward of losing five kilos ten weeks down the road. Let's go, ‘All right, what's the goal today? Well, I lifted this last week…let's beat it by 5%.’" (Matt, 08:02)
  • Xena is drawn to making everyday challenges, like doing a chin-up, a game rather than focusing on the distant goal of weight loss.
    • “Oh, maybe that's my one. A chin up…” (Xena, 08:57)
• Celebrating Progress:
  • Both stress the importance of enjoying incremental wins, especially for ADHD brains that tend to focus obsessively on end goals.
    • “Our ADHD brains get so focused on the destination...Hang on. The view is pretty good, isn't it?" (Xena, 10:42)
    • “One floor at a time, and then every time I go up another floor, and that's awesome.” (Matt, 10:59)

4. The Value of Joy, Play, and Presence

• Being Present Over Winning:

  • Xena references stories from books about elite athletes who perform best when detached from the need to win, instead focusing on the joy in the process.
    • “When you release the grip on the need to win and instead make your mission…to enjoy it as much as you can. That's when everything changed.” (Xena, 05:21)
  • Matt’s outlook mirrors this: “There’s always another shot…another game…There’s always another opportunity. Nothing’s life or death until it’s death.” (Matt, 06:13–06:26)

• Curiosity and Flow in Life:

  • Matt notes Kobe Bryant’s curiosity and enjoyment of the process as his true competitive edge.
    • “He was at his best when he was in flow. And he's just being here in the moment, doing the next thing and not letting…‘you need to do this’…get in the way.” (Matt, 06:40)

5. Applying Gamification Beyond Fitness

• Gamification for Children with ADHD:
  • Matt discusses using game principles in teaching life skills to his 8-year-old son recently diagnosed with ADHD, highlighting its broad benefit.
    • “He loves being in front of a screen. He loves playing a game…how can we teach him the life skills that he needs in a way that's going to hit him better?” (Matt, 11:52)
  • Xena reflects how this approach can benefit everyone, not just neurodivergent individuals:
    • “If we approached [schools] in this fun way, in this open, curious way, in this gamified way…everyone would benefit.” (Xena, 11:14)

6. Embracing Playfulness as Adults

• Remaining a Kid at Heart:
  • Both joke about never fully growing up and the importance of integrating play into adult life.
    • “I don't feel like I ever grew up. I don't know about you, I didn't.” (Xena, 12:44)
    • “We're all kids if we really ask ourselves.” (Matt, 12:36)
  • Matt shares a wedding anecdote about people joyfully playing with a giant Jenga set as a metaphor for bringing fun into life.
    • “Why can't we turn our whole life into that? …We get to write our story.” (Matt, 13:23)

7. Practical, Science-Based Life Tips

• Books and Learning Cheats:
  • Conversation turns to responsible book buying and leveraging free resources (like library audiobooks) to avoid dopamine-fueled overspending.
    • “That tip there is going to save me $300 a year…I want to turn my Audible subscription off.” (Matt, 15:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Imperfect is better than perfect. Because perfect is the problem.”
  (Xena, 04:15–04:21)

• “Not one single time…has anyone done anything perfectly. Letter of the law.”
  (Matt, 03:59)

• “Let's find out. And that's why I think, hopefully it's been that mentality lately that…I'm free and I'm playing against someone who doesn't want to lose.”
  (Matt, 04:47)

• “Our ADHD brains get so focused on the destination…Hang on. The view is pretty good, isn't it?”
  (Xena, 10:42)

• “Why can't we turn our whole life into [a game]?…We get to write our story.”
  (Matt, 13:23)

• “That tip there is going to save me $300 a year. I want to turn my Audible subscription off.”
  (Matt, 15:49)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Framing routines as a “practice”, not a perfection pursuit: 01:26–03:14
• Imperfect over perfect & dangers of perfectionism: 04:10–04:38
• Gamifying physical activity & life: 07:06–10:06
• Focusing on present vs. future/expectations: 05:21–06:40
• Gamification for children and the universal value of play: 11:14–13:23
• Life hacks: Using library audiobooks, curbing impulsive purchases: 15:00–15:49

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Conclusion

In this unscripted, bonus episode, Xena and Matt’s raw, laughter-filled exchange distills powerful lessons for navigating ADHD (and, indeed, life):

• Embrace imperfection
• Make the journey joyful and gamified
• Notice progress along the way
• Let passion and curiosity—not pressure—guide your habits

Full of practical wisdom and relatable humor, this conversation is a gentle reminder that success isn’t about being perfect—it’s about practicing, playing, and finding satisfaction in the small moments, one step at a time.

Transcript

[A]

Hey friend, if you want to hear what happens after an interview with a guest, if you want to hear the kind of conversation that we have, if you want to like listen in to the things we talk about, well, you can do that because partway through chatting, after Matt and I had recorded that last podcast episode for you, he said to me, man, we should just hit record cause we're saying some really good shit. And I was like, yeah, I know, right? So midway through this conversation, we're probably like 15 minutes into it and we hit record and we went on just to continue chatting maybe another 20ish minutes. And that is what you are going to listen to now is our conversation post recording the episode. Now, if you want to know who the heck Matt is and what the heck we talked about and why you're even here, I would probably recommend that you listen to the very first episode, which, which is number 133, where Matt came on to the Navigating Adult ADHD podcast. And he talked about how he has uses ADHD as his edge. We talked about like gamifying your life. We talked about like the grief of diagnosis, the process of getting diagnosed, like what it's like being a late diagnosed adult, how he works with his brain, so many amazing things. And then we took that conversation even deeper, as you will hear when we stopped recording and then hit record again. All right, so I really hope you enjoy this little bonus snippet of the behind the scenes conversation that Matt and I had.

[B]

Because then now I feel like I can just talk completely freely without having to think about and then I can go back. Oh man, that was a really good point. Like.

[A]

Yeah, what did we say? Let's get that transcribed.

[B]

Yeah, but we're gonna say about 30000 things here. I only remember the stuff we recorded. But yeah, I was saying I've the other thing too. I've been looking at my exercise or training. It's actually just a practice. It's something that I practice. It's a part of my routine and because it makes my life better.

[A]

Yeah. And I, that's why I walk. I walk a ton. Because it makes my life better.

[B]

Exactly right.

[A]

Like you can link it all back to the dopamine, to the chemicals in the brain, to the emotional regulation. You can link it back to all of that. But at the end of the day, like you said, it makes my life better.

[B]

Yeah, it's a practice. It's like when I easier, my life is better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The one that I've had to force for a While. And why I'm using the word practice is because it's quite often associated with meditation. It's a meditation practice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I've linked that word practice. My practice makes my life better. And that's where the onetoone thing is. So my, my one recovery is actually all my practice stuff. The way I eat, meditate, exercise that I'm like, that's a practice to make when I'm on. I'm at my best. My, my office also. Yeah. Just doing my hobbies, doing a bit of exercise that's gamified the food I eat. That's all my recovery stuff.

[A]

I like the word practice as well because it implies that it's not about doing it perfectly. It's a practice. It's. It's like we're still learning. Right. Practice is like learning, evolving, growing.

[B]

I've been in this, in I suppose the physical fitness, strength and conditioning world for more than 20 years now. I've been told actually by marketing man to use the word two decades because it gives it. It's got more gravitate. Yeah. But. And with everyone from. I've got a picture and vivid picture in my mind. I was doing a beer crawl one day and to the right of me was a 55 year old. Sorry. To the left of me was a UFC heavyweight fighter who was fighting for the championship in four weeks time. And to the right of me was a 55 year old lawyer woman named Nola. So I've. I've trained those people and everyone in between and not one single time in any instance has anyone done anything perfectly. Letter of the law.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not once.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I had all the information to what it looked like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's. It's about being perfectly imperfect and it's a practice.

[A]

And can I share with you my TED talk idea? Because you just like hit it on the head.

[B]

Go for it.

[A]

It is imperfect is better than perfect.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Like that's because perfect is the problem. Right. Like perfect is the problem. This idea that there's a right way to do it, that we need to hit the nail on the head every single time or tick a box every single day. That's the problem.

[B]

Yeah. The expectation.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Why? Why? Yeah. Like why go on to anything with an expectation? Because you're you. You could be putting a pressure on self to reach it, but also you could be drastically underestimating yourself. And when you get to that point that you expected, you didn't realize that you could have gone two steps forward and you had no idea you could have gone even further. So I'd rather just step into that situation and let's find out. And that's why I think, hopefully it's been that mentality lately that when it comes down to the last hole at simulated golf, like, I'm free and I'm playing against someone who doesn't want to lose.

[A]

Yeah. They're tightly gripped to it, eh? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I'm just like, well, let's find out what's the shot in front of me now. Stay. Present. Go.

[A]

That reminds me of some books I've read. God, I think one of them you might have even heard of. I'm looking at my bookshelf. He was the coach. Was he the coach of. Of Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant or something? What's the name of the book? I can't remember. And he talks about. Oh, maybe it wasn't that book. I don't know. But anyway, somebody had talked about how when you release the grip on the need to win and instead make your mission, instead of your mission is winning, your mission is to enjoy it as much as you can. That's when everything changed.

[B]

Like, yeah. Love, love, love what you're doing, who you do it with. Like.

[A]

Yeah. Because then it doesn't matter what it looks like. Right. Because you're. You're there for the. For the love of it, for the.

[B]

Joy of it, and whether you want to lose the other one. I keep thinking about in golf, there's always another shot. There's always another.

[A]

There's always another shot. Yeah. There's always another game.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, you lost this one. But. But just go play the next one. Yeah, yeah. There's a. There's always another opportunity. Nothing's life or death until it's death. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, yeah. And that's where I love. People think with Kobe Bryant, for example, that it's all about winning is just like, no, he went there to find out he's one of the most curious people on the planet and he was at his best when he was in flow. And he's just being here in the moment, doing the next thing and not letting Merv get in the way, saying, you need to do this or you need to do. If this happens, then all this is going to happen. Like, you don't know that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So I. I definitely think you need to come up with some online program for people with ADHD so that they can gamify their physical activity, whatever their goals may be.

[B]

I reckon most people. That's why I think odds Are that one person that I train right now in that group and my community has adhd because that's just the odds. But. Oh, and we know one, there's one in Rotorua. But all my guys are really engaged in this training now because I use the same systems with them because who doesn't want to just play a video game.

[A]

If my physical activity is a video game, I'm, I'm in.

[B]

Yeah. So we've got a, we've got a lack of dopamine, so we need a little bit more dopamine. Yeah, but everyone wants dopamine.

[A]

Yeah, it feels good for everyone. ADHD or not.

[B]

Well, we get a reward from doing something. Okay, well, if we get bored from doing something, let's not put the reward of losing five kilos ten weeks down the road. Let's go. All right, what's the goal today? Well, I lifted this last week and this is the format we're going to do. We want to beat it by 5%. Everyone up for it? Okay, let's go. Oh, that feels good. All of a sudden, ten weeks gone past and you've lost five kilos. Yeah, but all you been focused, but.

[A]

Again you, like, again you are focused on the, the joy of it. Right. The fun of the game, the interest, all of that. And the goals is the byproduct. Yeah.

[B]

Why would you, like, go to the gym and beat yourself up and try and force fat off? Like, that's a sounds like a way of doing it.

[A]

I've been there, done that, didn't work very well.

[B]

Yeah, but how about we go. Do you know what, man? Like, Yep. Sweet. You want to lose some weight? You want to feel a bit better? Have you ever done a chin up? No. We ever got that? Yeah. Seven, eight weeks later, man, we did it. We got there. Chin ups. Awesome.

[A]

Oh, maybe that's my one. A chin up. Have you seen the movie G.I. jane? Relevant side tangent. Demi Moore shaves her head off.

[B]

I, I, I, I only watched it because it was Demi Moore, if I'm honest.

[A]

Yeah, but you know the movie.

[B]

As long as, you know she was in her prime back then.

[A]

Yeah, she was in her prime, right? Like 100%. I love that movie because she, like, just for women's rights, like, she just went out and, and there was that moment where she's like, suck my dick. To like, the commander who was trying to beat the out of her. And I like, every time I rewatch it over and over and over again, I'm like. And that's when all her Teammates, like, finally come in. But. But, like, I think when you say, like, do a chin up, like, there's one thing I've never been able to do. Like, never. Right. My partner can go in the gym, do that, and I'm just like. Right.

[B]

Like, straight away, like, something like that.

[A]

Makes me think about Demi Moore and me. Demi Moore in the movie. Right. Like, shaving my head off. That's what it feels like now.

[B]

And now we're talking about, like, now you're not dealing with your ADHD problem or your weight loss problem or your energy. You're just playing a game. And you know what? That'll be a fun thing to go try.

[A]

Yeah. Like, how do I get strong enough to do that? How do I work the muscles out enough to do that? Like, what do I need to do to my body to help me get there?

[B]

Yeah. And so, like, so then there's. So with a but experienced coach like myself, then I can work all the layers underneath that. But you just focus on that and let me work out the rest, and I'll just try and make everything else fun. And do, you know, you notice, like, we're three weeks in there, and how good do you feel? It's like, oh, man. Yeah, like, my time on the bike's improving. And, like. Yeah, no, that's that, like. And all that sort of stuff. So. You know what? Actually, I jumped on the scale today. I'm two kilos down. Yeah, I know how good. That's awesome. Instead of going, man, I just. At the end of this challenge, I'm gonna lose this five kilos, and that's when I'm gonna feel good. And. And you're done.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you've eaten yourself.

[A]

You pointed out. You pointed out. And I love. This is how you feel good along the way. Right? You're. You're. You're highlighting the progress. Right. And our ADHD brains get so focused on the destination. We've got to get to the top of the ladder. The top of the ladder. The top of the ladder. I'm like, hang on. The view is pretty good, isn't it?

[B]

One floor at a time, and then every time I go up another floor. And that's awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Instead of closing my eyes and waiting to get to the top. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they said you don't have to have ADHD to understand that. Right?

[A]

Yeah. It benefits everyone. Right. When you do it in that way. And that's the way we need to approach schools. Right. Instead of just trying to teach the neurotypical kids if we approached it in this, in this fun way, in this open, curious way, in this gamified way, whole holy. Everyone would benefit.

[B]

And that's why I'm so excited about two things that reminded me of. And now we've got going is the, the guy I was talking about who's going to the World cup and he's projecting out into all those things. The guy I'm coaching.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hey, man, the World Cup's already started, bro. Like, we're doing it now.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So what do you.

[A]

It's not when you get there.

[B]

No, no, it's like, it's now.

[A]

Like, it's now.

[B]

It's now you're on the journey of that World cup. Like, what you're doing today is part of that story. So stay now in this page of the story. And then with Bod, that's what I'm excited about. He's 8 years old. He's just been diagnosed. It's like, cool. Like, he, he loves being in front of a screen. He loves playing a game. Of course he does. Like, okay, well, how can we teach him the life skills that he needs in a way that's going to hit him better than maybe the way things are set up for him currently? Right?

[A]

Yeah. That's so awesome. And I think that, that like doing that for him is going to benefit like, you. Right. Your entire family. Right. Like, it's gonna. I think it'll help you with ideas for like work, etc. Right. Otherwise, to help other people with brains wired differently like this. Like, that's gonna be so cool.

[B]

And I reckon, secretly, man. So I just think, man, like, we're all kids if we really ask ourselves.

[A]

Oh, I don't feel like I ever grew up. I don't know about you, I didn't. Yeah, I feel like I arrived in the adulthood.

[B]

Apparently our frontal loes and like get fully. But either way, like, you see people light up when you're playing a game. Whether it's be. The one that pops into my mind is we had a big Jenga stack at our wedding and I watch people for two hours. Just that thing just getting put down and people drinking. Like, why. Why can't we turn our whole life into that? Why does it have to be? And why does it have to look like work? Why can't it just all look, oh, that's so good.

[A]

Why can't we turn our life into that?

[B]

Yeah, I think we can. Like, we do. You can. We can do what we want. And that's at the end of the day. We get to write our story, and.

[A]

That'S the best thing about being this adult is we get to do what we want. Right?

[B]

Yeah. Like, yeah, as long as you don't hurt anyone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Have some fun along the way, like, whatever.

[A]

Yeah. All right. I feel like we could. We could drop.

[B]

Probably release that one as well.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. What I will probably do, though, is because some of my listeners freak out when they see how long things are. So I'll do the first one and then I'll be like, hey, there's a part two. We decided to keep rolling afterwards. And then I'll just drop that, like, as a bonus after, because otherwise they might freak out.

[B]

Yeah. Because I think now that this is us even being more honest, the more authentic, and it might potentially come across better. But I see them doing the top podcast doing that. Here's a bonus episode from that same chat. Rolling. And this is what happened. But, you know, it's heaps of fun, man. This has been really cool.

[A]

Yeah. Thanks for coming on. It's been awesome. Yeah, it's great to hear. Yeah. How you do things and. And how your brain works and. And what works for you. And I love this gamification. Like, honestly, I'm going to go down a rabbit hole this weekend.

[B]

How can I gamify more? I'll send you a. I send you a book of a lady who cured her post traumatic stress disorder by literally doing that for herself.

[A]

Oh, 100. Send me that. Do you know the title?

[B]

I always thought about it. I just can't. I think it's called Super Beta.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Because I could link it in the show notes too. That's all.

[B]

But don't go too hard. Like, start with the YouTube summary to get the gist and then decide that you're going to buy all her books. That's something. I'm doing better these days is go, okay, I. I would like that book, but why don't we watch the summary first and.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Go buy another 30, 40 book left.

[A]

I have made myself listen to the audio book first before I buy it because I. I've got a ton of books, right? And like, half of them unread or partially read, whatever. And so I'm like, now I've got onto the library because I was paying to listen to audio books, like, an excessive amount. So I've got onto the library where you can get, like, free books, right?

[B]

Of course you can. You don't need Audible.

[A]

You can get free audiobooks from the library. Right. Because I was paying heat. So then I do that. And then if I'm, like, obsessed with it after I've listened to it, then I can buy it. That's my. That's my new way of doing it.

[B]

That just. That tip there is going to save me $300 a year. I want to turn my Audible subscription off. I haven't downloaded a book for four months and didn't listen to any of them all the way through, but phone. And I'm paying $300 a year for it.

[A]

Yeah. And then, like, I think we get all that dopamine from, like, buying the book. Like, you know, like, oh, yeah, buy it. I'm gonna read it. And it's like, turns up and you're like, I'll read it later.

[B]

What happened with the set? I was just like, I needed to buy something, and I was like, fucking. Now I've got to, like, if I bought, I got to wear it.

[A]

All right, well, thank you again, Matt. It's been awesome chatting, and we must catch up for coffee and stuff.