Episode Summary: Listener Essay Case Studies – The Atheist and the Humanist

Podcast: NCE Study Guide
Host: Glenn Ostlund
Episode Air Date: October 20, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode uses a real listener essay, originally submitted to the Infants on Thrones podcast, as a case study for National Counselor Exam (NCE) prep. Through an in-depth, conversational analysis, Glenn Ostlund and co-hosts guide listeners through the emotional, psychological, and physiological aspects of spiritual transition and faith deconstruction, particularly focusing on the internal struggle between skepticism (atheist identity) and empathy (humanist identity).

The essayist, “Betty,” shares her journey from devout Mormon to outspoken atheist and, ultimately, to a nuanced humanist navigating relationships and identity after losing her faith. The hosts dissect Betty's internal dialectic, examine counseling theories, diagnostic considerations, and ethical guidelines, and translate these lessons into actionable insight for counseling practice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Listener Essay: Lived Experience of Faith Deconstruction

(Timestamps: 05:50–18:24)

• Betty’s Allegory:
  • “The atheist and the humanist were fighting for the crown. The atheist beat the humanist, but then was feeling down... focus on understanding what’s in another’s crown.” (05:50)
  • Describes an inner conflict between the critic (atheist) and the empath (humanist).
• Journey of Deconversion:
  • Past: Devout, identity heavily invested in Mormonism—“goddess in training.”
  • Present: Outspoken atheist, embracing secularism and humanism—but still deeply connected to Mormon friends and family.
  • “What the hell happened? Crisis of faith? Deconversion? A fall from grace? Bottom line is we don’t believe anymore.” (06:44) – Betty

Quote Highlight:

“I went from goddess in training to a tattooed coffee drinking, social justice-pushing atheist. What the hell happened?” (06:48, Betty)

• Pain of Social & Identity Loss:
  • Mourning the loss of meaning, rituals, and community.
  • Feeling torn between anger at the institution and love for religious family/friends.
  • “Can I criticize religious ideology and still have meaningful relationships with religious individuals?” (11:11, Betty)

Quote Highlight:

“I don’t care one shit of a bird’s brain case that she is wearing a hijab or that she is Muslim. Humanist Me.” (15:45, Betty)

• Online Outrage vs Real-Life Empathy:
  • Recognizes the toxicity of online echo chambers and the importance of face-to-face dialogue and relationship.

Notable Conclusion:

“I might not agree with you, but I love you. Let’s go meet for coffee... I’ll be getting coffee.” (18:13, Betty)

2. Expert Commentary: Psychological & Clinical Framing

(18:24–29:23)

• Transition as Profound Grief:

  • Not just an intellectual change—deep mourning for loss of meaning, structure, and identity.
  • “She’s not just ditching some beliefs. She’s mourning the loss of an entire architecture of meaning.” (21:15)

• Dialectic Identity Struggle:

  • Intellectually critical (“atheist me”) vs empathetic and connected (“humanist me”).
  • Both are moral positions; the challenge is integration.

• Real-World Stressors:

  • Navigating mixed-belief family and community.
  • Experiencing dogmatism in secular spaces too: “the problem isn’t just the belief system, but this human tendency towards needing certainty.”

• Bodily Impact:

  • Sleep disturbances, heightened anxiety, reliance on self-regulating behaviors (coffee, alcohol).
  • Nervous system previously regulated by communal rituals, now in a state of heightened, self-managed arousal.
  • “The body keeps the score.” (24:06)

Memorable Quote:

“What defines her rebuilding process is this constant inner battle...a dialectic...the intellectual side, atheist me... values logic, truth; but the humanist me... craves connection.” (21:35–21:57)

3. Theoretical & Developmental Models of Spiritual Transition

(29:23–32:39)

• Moral Injury:

  • “Moral injury isn’t just grief or sadness. It’s a specific kind of psychological wound…” (26:07)
  • Betrayal by institution, regret over past actions.

• Faith Development (Fowler’s Stages):

  • Identity moves from structured faith, through critical deconstruction, to “conjunctive faith”—embracing paradox and complexity.
  • “She doesn’t have to choose between atheist me and humanist me. She can learn to integrate them.” (28:15)

• Erikson’s Generativity:

  • Finding new sources of purpose: “Now it’s rooted in human connection, her own authenticity, maybe her social justice work.” (29:04)

4. Clinical Diagnosis & Ethical Considerations

(32:39–34:49)

• Z Codes – Religious or Spiritual Problem (Z65.8):

  • Used to acknowledge existential distress as real, not pathological.
  • “It legitimizes her struggle. It says your pain is real… not pathological.” (31:26)

• Differential Diagnosis:

  • Adjustment disorder, major depressive episode—must be carefully assessed and not assumed.

• Ethical Practice:

  • Therapist must exhibit value neutrality (ACA Code 8.4B), cultural sensitivity (E5B), and unconditional positive regard.
  • Do not pathologize deconversion or impose therapist’s worldview.

5. Therapeutic Approaches & Interventions

(34:49–46:26)

Humanistic/Person-Centered Therapy (Carl Rogers)

• Focus: Integration of self, unconditional acceptance, closing the gap between ideal and actual self.
• “The institution might have withdrawn acceptance when she doubted. Therapy offers the opposite.” (34:30)

Existential Therapy (Frankl, Yalom)

• Grappling with meaninglessness, creating new meaning after loss.
• “Frankl talked about the existential vacuum...when a prepackaged meaning system disappears.” (35:18)

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT)

• Psychological flexibility, cognitive diffusion, focus on chosen values.
• “The goal of ACT is psychological flexibility.” (36:51)
• Learning to “observe thoughts as thoughts, rather than as literal truths or commands.” (36:59)

Polyvagal Theory / Physiological Awareness (Porges)

• Recognize “gears” of the nervous system: ventral vagal (social engagement), sympathetic (fight/flight), dorsal vagal (shutdown).
• Spiritual crisis can be felt as a bodily threat (“her body might be reacting as if she’s about to be kicked out of the tribe”). (40:02–40:24)

Somatic Interventions

• Interoceptive practices—breathwork, body awareness, grounding—to create a sense of internal safety and resilience.
• “Each time she…brings her ventral vagal system back online...she strengthens that pathway.” (42:41)

Narrative & Cognitive Approaches

• Narrative reauthoring—framing the journey as heroic transformation, not failure.
• Compassion-focused cognitive restructuring to move from black/white to nuanced thinking.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I went from goddess in training to a tattooed coffee drinking, social justice-pushing atheist. What the hell happened?” (06:48, Betty)
• “Can I criticize religious ideology and still have meaningful relationships with religious individuals?” (11:11, Betty)
• “I don’t care one shit of a bird’s brain case that she is wearing a hijab or that she is Muslim. Humanist Me.” (15:45, Betty)
• “I might not agree with you, but I love you. Let’s go meet for coffee...” (18:13, Betty)
• “She’s not just ditching some beliefs. She’s mourning the loss of an entire architecture of meaning.” (21:15, Expert Commentary)
• “Moral injury isn’t just grief or sadness. It’s a specific kind of psychological wound…” (26:07, Expert Commentary)
• “Therapy isn’t about fixing her, but creating conditions for her to integrate.” (34:26, Expert Commentary)
• “Meaning isn’t found in a book of rules. It’s forged through love, through confronting suffering courageously...” (35:57, Expert Commentary)
• “The throne was that rigid structure of certainty...and the infant—that’s the core self underneath, raw, vulnerable, curious, capable of empathy.” (48:48–48:59, Expert Commentary)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Intro & Context: 00:00–05:50
• Listener Essay Reading: 05:50–18:24
• Clinical/Expert Commentary: 18:24–46:26
  • Psychological framing & grief: 18:24–21:06
  • Internal dialectic: 21:06–23:43
  • Embodiment & health impacts: 23:53–26:04
  • Moral injury & diagnosis: 26:07–32:39
  • Theoretical models (Fowler, Erikson): 32:39–34:49
  • Ethics: 34:49–35:07
  • Therapy approaches: 35:07–46:26
• Recap, Takeaways, and Closing Metaphors: 46:26–49:55

NCE Exam Prep – Key Takeaways

• Z65.8 Religious/Spiritual Problem:
  Use for clients in faith transition/spiritual crisis without pathologizing.
• Mind/Body Connection:
  Polyvagal theory—nervous system states regulate safety, connection, fear.
• ACT & Psychological Flexibility:
  Cognitive diffusion, value-driven action, integration of conflicting identities.
• Moral Injury:
  Name and work through the unique pain of ethical betrayal and identity change.
• Therapist Ethics:
  Value neutrality, unconditional positive regard, cultural humility.
• Narrative & Somatic Skills:
  Story reframing, interoception, ritual, self-compassion, dialogue as healing.

Final Thought

Betty’s journey is not just about leaving or critiquing faith, but about becoming “strong enough and flexible enough to hold both critical thinking and unconditional love.” Her story provides a template for clinicians and individuals alike grappling with the complexities of identity, meaning, and belonging after spiritual upheaval.

"Every time she chooses dialogue over diatribe, empathy over outrage, complexity over certainty, she's strengthening that internal foundation." (49:33, Expert Commentary)