Frugal Fatigue Is Real: How to Stop Saving Burnout and Start Spending on Purpose

Summary

Podcast Summary

NerdWallet’s Smart Money Podcast

Episode: Frugal Fatigue Is Real: How to Stop Saving Burnout and Start Spending on Purpose
Hosts: Sean Pyles, CFP®; Elizabeth Ayola
Guest: Kim Palmer, Senior Personal Finance Writer
Date: March 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the hosts tackle a listener question about how to avoid “frugal fatigue”—the burnout that results from strict budgeting and relentless cost-cutting—and how to enjoy spending money without guilt. The team discusses the issue of money shame, explores the roots of guilt and restrictive financial habits, and shares actionable strategies for balancing savings goals with intentional, guilt-free spending. The conversation is candid, empathetic, and rich with personal anecdotes, offering both emotional validation and practical advice for listeners struggling to stay motivated while saving.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Listener’s Dilemma: Saving vs. Living

• Listener Michael asks about feeling unable to enjoy life because of aggressive saving and self-imposed restrictions, often shaming himself for spending and yearning for a healthier balance. (02:07)
• Sean sets up the theme: “Today we’ll be chatting about treating yourself and how to balance it with savings goals, which I am doing, by the way.” (01:39)

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2. Understanding ‘Frugal Fatigue’ and Money Shame

• Elizabeth defines frugal fatigue: “That's essentially a burnout that can happen when you're perpetually cost cutting or have a restrictive budget. The issue is it can lead to impulsive shopping or this cycle of saving and shaming yourself.” (02:55)
• Kim Palmer on money shame: “Money shame is basically feeling badly about the way that you’re handling money or decisions that you’re making. It’s actually pretty common...it can really guide a lot of the day to day decisions that we’re making about money.” (03:30)
  • The origin of money shame: Early family messaging about scarcity or waste can establish deep-seated guilt or restrictive behaviors around spending. (03:30-04:10)

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3. Personal Money Stories—Unlearning Harmful Narratives

• The hosts and Kim share personal experiences with money shame and upbringing:
  • Elizabeth: “A money story I had to unlearn is that I don’t deserve a lot of money...I had to identify where those money stories came from. Usually it comes from deep childhood wounds.” (05:26)
  • Sean: “I grew up with two contradictory money stories...money was tight so you better be frugal, but my parents would sometimes spend kind of lavishly on things. So I vacillate between these feelings even to this day.” (07:33)
    • On finding balance: “The process of car buying helped me find what is a comfortable middle ground between having a nice thing that I know I want and deserve, but doing it in a way that’s not gonna break the bank.” (08:43-09:22)
  • Kim: Her father’s experience with rationing in post-war England created strong frugal habits that she internalized, resulting in guilt over waste and spending. (09:41)

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4. Balancing Enjoyment and Savings: Tactical Approaches

• Budgeting frameworks:
  • Kim introduces the 50/30/20 budget: “50% of your take-home pay going to needs, 30% to wants, and 20% to savings and debt payments...you have a ballpark for where your wants, needs, and savings are going. And that way you do have a allotted amount that's for wants and that is where the fun items come from. So you don’t have to feel guilty about it because it’s built into your budget.” (12:41)
  • Customization is encouraged: Adjusting to 60/20/20 or 60/30/10 as needed. (12:41)
• Value-based spending:
  • Sean: “Maybe do some value-based spending…really intentionally go out of their way to say, ‘Hey, I’m spending this money on a fun thing for me…’” (13:47)
• Sinking funds for “fun money”:
  • Elizabeth: “It may be helpful if Michael keeps fun money in a separate account...I think this could be especially helpful for Michael because it can create like a sort of mental and visible separation between their fun money and then that responsible money.” (15:01)
  • Kim: “If you want to do something fun like go on a trip…you can pull from that section of your budget that’s for those optional items like wants…and because it’s in that framework, I think it takes away from the guilt.” (14:14)
• Planning for larger expenses: Setting aside money in advance (using sinking funds) so planned splurges are guilt-free. (15:57)

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5. Understanding and Dealing With Savings Obsession

• Emotional roots:
  • Kim: “That feeling of not having enough or being obsessed with savings often comes back to just having grown up with a sense of scarcity or not having.” (17:25)
• Reality check:
  • Sean: “Just knowing your numbers can be really helpful…if you actually have all your bases covered, that can give you a moment to have a sigh of relief and think, okay, how can I move forward beyond this?” (17:48)
  • Elizabeth: “When I would shame myself about not saving enough...looking back five years where I had literally zero in retirement savings, and when I look at how much I have now…I’m like, girl, you saved a lot of money. Good job to you.” (18:21)
• Risks of being too strict:
  • Elizabeth: “One that comes to mind for me is the equivalent of crash dieting and then binge eating.” (18:50)
  • Kim: “We want to have a system that is sustainable...if we are just constantly saying no to ourselves and denying ourselves, it’s hard or impossible to really stick with that budget and make it last.” (18:50)

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6. Practical Recommendations

• Build fun into your budget, however small. Even little indulgences (coffee with a friend, a movie ticket) can make your budgeting system more sustainable. (14:14, 15:01)
• Separate accounts/sinking funds help detach emotion from spending. (15:01-15:57)
• Track progress on savings goals to counter shame. Comparing your current status to past achievements can alleviate guilt and build pride. (18:21)
• Adjust savings rates to your lifestyle and needs. Don’t deprive yourself unnecessarily if your foundational goals (emergency fund, retirement savings) are on track. (20:33-21:24)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Elizabeth Ayola on overcoming money shame:
  "Money is so values-based...usually it comes from deep childhood wounds." (05:26)

• Sean Pyles on dual money upbringing:
  “I’ve struggled…having this scarcity mindset, thinking, oh, money is going to be tight, I always better save for a rainy day…then having this impulse to get the shiny, nice, expensive thing, and those are kind of incompatible.” (07:33)

• Kim Palmer on budgeting:
  “You definitely want to make sure you have some fun built into your budget because if you are constantly saying no to yourself and not letting yourself have any splurges at all, then it’s easy just to wanna let go of your budget altogether.” (14:14)

• Elizabeth on self-compassion:
  “When I look at how much I have now, I’m like, girl, you saved a lot of money. Like, good job to you. And that really did help alleviate some of that shame around spending.” (18:21)

• Kim on sustainability:
  "We want to have a system that is sustainable...if we are just constantly saying no to ourselves and denying ourselves, it's hard or impossible to really stick with that budget and make it last.” (18:50)

• Sean’s closing encouragement:
  “Life is meant to be lived. Your money is meant to be spent and enjoyed. So take advantage of it.” (21:24)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:07 — Listener Michael’s question about balancing saving and treating oneself
• 02:55 — Introduction of “frugal fatigue” and money shame
• 05:26 — Elizabeth’s story of money shame and self-worth
• 07:33 — Sean’s conflicting money stories
• 09:41 — Kim’s upbringing and lasting money habits
• 12:41 — Introduction and explanation of the 50/30/20 budget (and variants)
• 13:47 — Encouragement of value-based spending
• 15:01 — Sinking funds for fun spending
• 17:25 — Obsessing over savings—where does it come from?
• 18:50 — Dangers of being overly restrictive (the “crash diet” analogy)
• 21:24 — Final encouragement to enjoy your money

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Summary Takeaways

• Identify and unlearn harmful money narratives; awareness is the first step in creating a healthier relationship with spending.
• Implement a sustainable budget that includes intentional fun spending to avoid burnout.
• Separate fun money (e.g., sinking funds) can empower guilt-free spending.
• Review your achievements to reinforce positive financial behaviors.
• Adjust savings rates according to your real needs and lifestyle, not arbitrary ideals.
• Remember: your money is a tool for both future security and present joy. Find your balance and allow yourself to enjoy it.

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Transcript

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[Elizabeth Ayola]

Hey Sean, what's the last thing you treated yourself to?

[Sean Pyles]

I had a week recently where I accidentally bought three pairs of running shoes. What? I don't know if I told you. I'm going to be running around Mount Hood over the summer and so I'm training and I need a few different pairs of shoes to prepare for that. Today we'll be chatting about treating yourself and how to balance it with savings goals, which I am doing, by the way. Welcome to NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast, where you send us your money questions and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds. I'm Sean Pyles.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

And I'm Elizabeth Ayola. This episode's question comes from a listener named Michael by text, and it's about balancing, budgeting and treating yourself. Here it goes. Hi NerdWallet. Essentially, I have my savings goals and I'M working to meet them. However, because of this, I often don't go out, go on fun trips, AKA treat myself. I usually stay inside, eat, cheat meals, and shame myself on any money that I spend. What do you recommend I can do to help me enjoy life a little and not obsess about my savings goals to my detriment? Thanks.

[Sean Pyles]

To help us answer Michael's question on this episode of Smart Money, we're joined by personal finance writer Kim Palmer. Hey, welcome back to Smart Money.

[Kim Palmer]

Kim Hi Sean and Elizabeth. Thank you so much for having me.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Kim, it sounds like Michael is experiencing a term called frugal fatigue and that's essentially a burnout that can happen when you're perpetually cost cutting or have a restrictive budget. Now the issue with frugal fatigue is that it can lead to impulsive shopping or this kind of cycle of saving and then shaming yourself. As Michael seems to be experiencing. Saving is not always fun, I know personally, but it definitely shouldn't feel like punishment. Now Michael said they often shame themselves on the money that they spend. So Kim, what is money shaming and what are some causes?

[Kim Palmer]

Well, money shame is basically feeling badly about the way that you're handling money or decisions that you're making. It's actually pretty common. And so I'm glad that we're talking about it because I think it doesn't get enough attention, but it can really guide a lot of the day to day decisions that we're making about money. And sometimes money shame comes from just how we were taught to think about money. Growing up. If you were constantly told that you're wasting money or that you might run out of money, then you could grow up just kind of feeling guilty as an adult about everyday purchases. So it's not necessarily our parents fault because they were probably dealing with their own challenges. But that can be a source of why we might feel like that today.

[Sean Pyles]

I read this great book a few years back called so youo've Been Publicly Shamed. And it was about kind of the rise of online Internet shaming. And the book describes shame as this feeling that you have because of how your actions are not in line with what people expect you to be doing. So in this case, shame can derive from maybe not having enough savings for retirement or not spending your money on like the right things that other people are putting upon you. So you're internalizing these external expectations and not living up to that. And that breeds shame, which can be really destructive. So Kim, what are some ways that you can address shame when it comes up around your spending.

[Kim Palmer]

I think it starts with really exploring where it comes from and thinking about your own money story. So reflecting or even talking with a friend that you trust about where these feelings are coming from can really help. And then of course, if you want to go deeper, there is a whole field of financial therapists out there that can help you think through this, maybe make adjustments to how you think about money. And in some cases, you're processing really difficult things that happened to you growing up and the way that you were taught about money. So that can be a really useful resource and not, not to put you both on the spot, but. Sean and Elizabeth, do you have money stories that you had to unlearn?

[Elizabeth Ayola]

I do, and I empathize with Michael's question so much because I've been there. And I think something people don't realize enough is that money is so values based. So a money story that comes to mind that I had to unlearn is that I don't deserve a lot of money. And I found that that money story come up for me maybe about five years ago. I was having to negotiate my pay and I was looking at just how to expand my finances and create some kind of financial freedom. And I just found it so difficult to negotiate higher pay or to even imagine myself earning a certain amount. Some exercises that I did to help was I did a lot of journaling. I did a lot of affirmations saying that I deserve money, I deserve good things. And also I had to identify where those money stories came from. Where did this belief that I don't deserve money come from? And like you rightly said, Kim, sometimes it's from your upbring, sometimes it has to do with deeper self worth and self esteem issues. Right. Maybe you just don't feel worthy of good things. That was another thing that I had to address. And just going to therapy, full stop, been in therapy for, I don't know, almost seven years now, really, really helped me to address all of those money stories. And usually it come from deep childhood wounds.

[Sean Pyles]

A lot of times we don't even realize we have these money stories. Was there a moment, Elizabeth, where you suddenly saw, oh wow, I've been telling myself that I don't deserve money. And that's kind of messed up.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Yeah. So it may have been a book I read because I'm a very introspective person. I'm always looking for kind of deeper self work activities to do. And I just remember at that point of journaling, I had just learned about money Stories and money values. Myself, I kind of asked myself, you know, why do you think that you don't deserve to have this amount of money? Or why is it so uncomfortable for you to imagine yourself having that? And then it was like, well, wait a minute, I don't think that I deserve it. And it feels like a sad moment because it's like, well, that's sad. But it really kind of can help you to move past it when you can first identify that that thing exists, that belief or that value exists.

[Sean Pyles]

I'm glad you did that work, because it sounds like now you're on the other side of it.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Or at least give me my monies. Pay me.

[Sean Pyles]

Give Elizabeth all the money now.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Yes, absolutely. What about you, Sean?

[Sean Pyles]

I feel like I grew up with two kind of contradictory money stories. One was that money was tight and we didn't have enough of it, so you better be frugal. And then at the same time, I witnessed my parents spend kind of lavishly on things that, in retrospect, I wonder if they could have comfortably afforded. They probably weren't able to afford it all the time. And so I've struggled with that in my own life of having this kind of scarcity mindset, of thinking, oh, money is going to be tight. I always better save for a rainy day, which isn't the worst thing. But then having this impulse to get the shiny, nice, expensive thing, and those are kind of incompatible. And it leads to a lot of indecisiveness and sometimes shame when I am spending, or regret that I didn't actually enjoy my money, or sometimes feeling like, why am I saving so much when I could die tomorrow? So I just vacillate between these feelings even to this day. So maybe I should pick up that book that you read, Elizabeth, or chat with a money therapist.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Oh, thank you for sharing that, Sean. And, Kim, I want to get to your money story, if you have one, so we're going to put you on the spot, too. But at what point did you realize, Sean, that, hey, you know, you have this money story?

[Sean Pyles]

I don't think it was until I started working at NerdWallet and I. I understood the idea of what a money story is, because, like I mentioned before, we go through life following these narratives that we're not even 100% aware of. And it was when I was actually going to buy a car in 2020, and I had this impulse to get, like, a really nice car because I grew up with a really crappy Honda Civic where the muffler was dragging on the road behind me and I really wanted a BMW or something similar. And I was able to find a car that was affordable for me within my budget and was still nice. So that process of car buying help me find what is a comfortable middle ground between having a nice thing that I know I want and deserve, but doing it in a way that's not gonna break the bank.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Yeah. And just one more thing quickly. I wanna say that I love that you pointed out, Sean, is that it's a work in progress. Right. It's not like once you do these affirmations or see a therapist that suddenly all of these money stories disappear. It takes time to unlearn these things, but at least you're more aware of them. And I think that's progress in itself.

[Sean Pyles]

It goes a long way.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Yep. What about you, Kim?

[Kim Palmer]

For me, it definitely goes back to how my parents talked about money. They were and are super frugal. And part of that is because my dad was born right after World War II was ending in England. He grew up in England and there were rations, so, you know, limited eggs, milk, cream, all of that. And so I grew up every time we went to the grocery store or eating dinner, he would tell us these stories and if we wasted anything, you know, he would say like that is just unacceptable because they weren't able to waste waste back then. And so I think I just kind of internalized that. And it definitely can make me feel guilty at times, but it definitely informed us how I think about resources and what we have. Try to be appreciative of it.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

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[Sean Pyles]

It strikes me that there are two sides to this conversation to work through these issues. There's the sort of emotional, mental, psychological part of understanding why you have these narratives. But then there's also a really tactical aspect of just figuring out where your money is going and allocating it in a really intentional Kim, how do you think Michael can create a budget that balances saving and enjoying his life?

[Kim Palmer]

Well, I think it really goes back to one of our all time favorite tools at NerdWallet that we talk about a lot. The 503020 budget where basically you have 50% of your take home pay going to needs, 30% to wants, and 20% to savings and debt payments. And of course those percentages are adjustable and for some people it makes sense to do more of a 602020 split or a 603010 split. You have to choose what works for you. But I just the idea of having a ballpark for where your wants, needs and savings are going. And that way you do have a allotted amount that's for wants and that is where the fun items come from. And so you don't have to feel guilty about it because it's built into your budget. And at the same time I think it helps just to think through some of your priorities or goals. So maybe you want to pay off some high interest credit card debt or build up an emergency fund and just listing that out gives you a framework for what you're focusing on. You feel like you have an action plan and then I think it's a little easier to let go of the guilt because you are making progress and you can feel good about those decisions.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah, it sounds like Michael needs to try to Lean into the fun part of their budget and maybe do some value based spending to help minimize their shame. Like really intentionally go out of their way to say, hey, I'm spending this money on a fun thing for me, whether it's going out to eat or a new video game or a book or whatever is fun to Michael. We don't know what is fun to them. But Kim, I'd like to hear some ways to maybe alleviate the guilt of spending and still saving money. So what are your thoughts around striking that balance?

[Kim Palmer]

I think it really goes back to having that ballpark budget, then digging into those wants. So you have your allotted amount for wants. And then if you want to do something fun like go on a trip or plan a vacation, you can pull from that section of your budget that's for those optional items like wants. And because it's in that framework, I think it takes away from the guilt. You definitely want to make sure you have some fun built into your budget because if you are constantly saying no to yourself and not letting yourself have any splurges at all, then it's easy just to wanna let go of your budget altogether. So even if you're building in some small things right now, like getting coffee with a friend or going to the movies, it doesn't have to be extravagant. But you wanna make sure you have something in there that's making you feel good, so you wanna stick with it.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

I love that you kind of listed out, Kim, the different types of 50, 30, 20 or 60, 20, 20 frameworks, because I know I used to feel a lot of shame around spending because I'm like, well, you can afford to save more. So even though you can 30%, maybe 40 or 50. So it's important to remember that you can save more if that's going to make you more comfortable spending something else that comes to mind. It may be helpful if Michael keeps fun money in a separate account. Sean is going to love this suggestion.

[Sean Pyles]

Are you talking about sinking funds, Elizabeth?

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Fine, I'm talking about sinking funds.

[Sean Pyles]

One of my favorite things. Yes.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

So I think this could be especially helpful for Michael because it can create like a sort of mental and visible separation between their fun money and then that responsible money. Kim, how can people decide the right amount of fun money that doesn't trigger guilt and helps them achieve financial goals? Maybe that 30% for wants may seem too robust for Michael.

[Kim Palmer]

It can. I think this is where some advanced planning really comes into play. And I also love the idea of sinking funds. So say Michael has a fun expense that's coming up that they want to plan for. Like, let's just say it's a vacation for an example. Then you want to start setting aside money the months ahead of that vacation. So. So you are slowly building up that account. You're keeping it separate from your other money so you don't have to feel guilty because there it is, you've planned for it, you're allowed to spend it. And that way, by setting money aside each month in advance of the big expense, you know you're ready for it. And I think that can go a long way. That kind of advanced planning, sinking funds can go a long way towards just making sure you're actually enjoying that expenditure and not feeling guilty.

[Sean Pyles]

Another thought that comes to mind is that around sinking funds, Michael could have one around their emergency fund. If they don't have one set aside, I think having an emergency fund of three to six months of savings, knowing that you have that money tucked away for whenever something does pop up, can help you then enjoy what you are allocating for your fund money without being so concerned about having all of your bases covered too. So let's shift to another part of Michael's question around obsessing over savings. And this is something we hear from listeners pretty regularly. They're really hyper focused on savings, sometimes in Michael's case as well, at the expense of enjoying their life and enjoying their money. So when it comes to obsessing over savings, Kim, where do you think this can come from in people?

[Kim Palmer]

Well, first, I feel like I should say I'm not a financial therapist. I have interviewed many financial therapists though, and the message that I've gotten is that that feeling of not having enough or being obsessed with savings, it often comes back to just having grown up with a sense of scarcity or not having. And so it could be something worth exploring with a friend, with a therapist, just to see where that's coming from.

[Sean Pyles]

Just knowing your numbers can be really helpful here. So understand your budget, maybe with that 50, 30, 20, or 60, 20, 20 framework, whatever you want to play with, and just know, hey, I actually do have all of my needs met by the money that I have coming in. And if you find that that's not the case, then we can talk about that in more detail then. But if you actually have all your bases covered, that can give you a moment to have a sigh of relief and think, okay, how can I move forward beyond this? Because I'm understanding that my scarcity mindset isn't actually tied to the facts of my Finances.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

That's right. And looking at the progress of your goals, when I would shame myself about not saving enough, too, I remember looking back five years where I had literally, yeah, six years ago, I had $0 in retirement savings. And when I look at how much I have now, I'm like, girl, you saved a lot of money. Like, good job to you. And that really did help alleviate some of that shame around spending. All right, what are some risks that come with being overly tight on spending? One that comes to mind for me is the equivalent of crash dieting and then binge eating. Ask me how I know exactly.

[Kim Palmer]

We want to have a system that is sustainable, that we can continue over long periods. And if we are just constantly saying no to ourselves and denying ourselves, it's hard or impossible to really stick with that. That budget and make it last. So that's why we want to just try to take a more balanced and sustainable approach. We're building in some of that fun. And that way your budget plan can continue without getting interrupted, where you suddenly just want to, you know, drop it all aside and spend on something wild.

[Sean Pyles]

Kim, I'd love to hear how you've navigated savings goals in the past. Have you ever struggled with feelings of guilt or maybe obsessive saving in the past?

[Kim Palmer]

I sure have, and I think it goes back to what I mentioned before about just growing up with those constant messages of frugality. Resonates for me is something Elizabeth said about just making sure you have the fundamental structure that makes you feel secure in place. So if I know I have my emergency fund set I'm saving for specific goals, then that helps me feel not so guilty if I do want to splurge on something or plan a vacation that isn't absolutely necessary. So for me, it's all about planning. I'm a huge planner, and that takes away some of the guilt and just makes me feel positive about the money decisions that I'm making.

[Sean Pyles]

It really echoes what we were talking about around knowing your budget, like, you emphasized, too. And I think when you have these fundamentals and the numbers in front of you, it can help demystify some of these nebulous feelings of guilt, because it can be really easy to spiral around your feelings of money shame, and it can be detached from reality. And so just to bring yourself back down to earth, understand where your money is going can go a long way in terms of alleviating some of these negative thought patterns that people might have.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

As we're talking, I'm also remembering a conversation I had with a financial advisor maybe two years ago when I was having a cash flow issue, AKA overspending. And I send my budget to him and he goes, you know, you have a really good savings rate. And my issue is I wasn't having a realistic savings rate, so I was trying to deprive myself so much by saving too much compared to the lifestyle I was trying to live. And I ended up overspending every month. So, you know, he said something to me which helped shift my mindset a bit, which is like, you're saving a lot, you're doing a good job job, maybe allocate more to yourself basically for your wants. And it was such a small thing, but it really, really helped to improve my cash flow. Because back to that, deserving to spend money, you deserve to have a little bit more fun money and you can afford to. You're doing all the right things. You're saving for retirement, you have your emergency funds, so let yourself enjoy your money.

[Sean Pyles]

Well, Michael, I hope this conversation has helped you understand how you can carve out some fun money in your budget without feeling guilty about it. This is going to be a gradual process too, so I would recommend maybe trying setting aside a dollars in one month and having that be just your fun money and seeing how that feels. And then if you're comfortable doing it, maybe expand it out a little more and just understand where your finances are going and how you can really enjoy your money. Because life is meant to be lived. Your money is meant to be spent and enjoyed. So take advantage of it.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

And please, if you're listening to this episode and you have some shifts, tell us what you end up spending on, tell us where your fun money is going and also if you take any of the tips in this episode and apply them.

[Sean Pyles]

Okay, Kim, well, thank you so much for coming on and talking with us about this and getting honestly, really vulnerable with us. It's been illuminating for me to hear your story, so I just, I really appreciate that.

[Kim Palmer]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Sean Pyles]

And that's all we have for this episode. So Kim, can you please read us

[Kim Palmer]

out to have the nerds answer your money questions? Call or text us your questions on the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-N E R D. You can also email [e-mail] join us next time

[Elizabeth Ayola]

to hear about values based investing for retirement funds. We want you to follow Smart Money on your favorite podcast app that's Spotify Apple Podcasts iheartradio to automatically download new episodes.

[Sean Pyles]

And here's our brief disclaimer. We are not your financial or investment advisors. This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

This episode was produced by Tess Viglund. Hilary Georgi help with editing. Nick Kirsimi and Eve Krogman Helmar audio and video production. Huge thank you to NerdWallet's editors for their help.

[Sean Pyles]

And with that said, until next time, turn to the nerds.